← Something You Should Know
Something You Should Know
The Surprising Power of Being Polite & Job Interview Secrets That Really Work-SYSK Choice
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- [00:03]
Mike Carruthers
Today on something you should know. Will a medication work better? If you truly believe it will, then politeness. It's the glue that holds civilization together and it's the key to your success.
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Louise Mullaney
As human beings, we're all aware of the fact that if we constantly speak our minds and we don't abide by politeness, we are going to make enemies and we're not going to have very many friends. So there is a real inbuilt sense that we have that operates at quite a subconscious level as far as politeness is concerned.
- [00:33]
Mike Carruthers
Also, is MSG really bad for you? And how to ace any Job interview what to say, what not to say, even what to wear.
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Sam Owens
What I say is dress not to impress. You don't want to be in sweatshirts, but you probably don't want to be in a tux either. Find out what the dress code is and maybe dress just a little nicer than that and so the interviewer can focus on you and your qualifications and not the way you look.
- [00:57]
Mike Carruthers
All this today on something you should know One thing I love about summer is how simple getting dressed becomes. And I've noticed something kind of funny. When I'm getting ready in the morning, I keep looking for the same shirt. Not because I plan to wear it, it's just the one I want. For me, that's my quince linen shirt. It's light, it's breathable, it looks good without trying too hard. And somehow it works, whether I'm meeting someone for lunch or just running errands. That's when you know you've bought something good, when you stop thinking about it and you just reach for it. I have several quince pieces now, and they're all like that. Their T shirts are incredibly soft. The linen is perfect for the summer heat, and when the evening cools off, their lightweight cotton sweaters are exactly right and they look great. What also impressed me is that Quince sells everything for 50 to 80% less than similar brands because they work directly from with ethical factories and skip the middleman. So you're paying for the quality, not the middleman, not somebody else's marketing budget. And it isn't just clothing anymore. We've picked up things for the house and for travel too, and the quality is consistently excellent. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quint.com sysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-E.com sysk for free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com sysk
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Arch Manning
something
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Sam Owens
you should KNOW Fascinating intel, the world's
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Mike Carruthers
top experts and practical advice you can
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Arch Manning
use in your life today.
- [02:48]
Mike Carruthers
Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers well, hi, welcome to SOMETHING YOU should know. I want to start today talking about the placebo effect. You know what that is? Basically, how well you expect a medication to work will influence how well it works. And what's interesting is what influences your expectations of that medication. First of all, pills that look larger or are taken in pairs can be perceived as stronger. And injections can also have a stronger placebo effect than pills or liquid medicine. Your attitude if a person expects a treatment to work, they're more likely to experience the placebo effect. However, placebos can still work even if a person is skeptical. In fact, placebos have been shown to work even when a person knows it's a placebo. Verbal cues help A healthcare provider who talks positively about a treatment can contribute to your expectations of how well the medication will work. Social cues, reassuring body language, eye contact and speech from a doctor or nurse will contribute to your expectations of how well a medication works. Your previous experience has an impact. A drug may be more effective if a person has had a good experience with it in the past, and seeing other people benefit. If someone else gets relief from a treatment, it can also make it more effective for you. So if you want your medicine to work well, find a reason to believe it does. And that is something you should know. You were probably taught to be polite, to say please and thank you and basically be courteous to others. And you might make the argument that today people are less polite than they once were. And yet, as you're about to hear, politeness can be magical. In fact, there are people who study the science of politeness. You're about to hear from one of them who may have you rethinking just how polite you are and maybe why you should be even more polite. My guest is Louise Mullaney. She has taught the science of politeness at the University of Nottingham for several years, where she is a professor of social linguistics. She is author of a book called the Art of Communication at Home, at Work, and in Public. Hi Louise. Welcome to something you should know.
- [05:29]
Louise Mullaney
Hi Mike. Thanks very much for inviting me.
- [05:31]
Mike Carruthers
So what about this whole idea that
- [05:33]
Eva Jovic
people are less polite than they used to be?
- [05:36]
Mike Carruthers
I mean, it's kind of my sense of the situation. But. But certainly there are plenty of very polite people. So what's your sense?
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Louise Mullaney
This is a really interesting one, I think, particularly in a Digital space, there's a sense that politeness norms are changing generally in terms of politeness standards declining. It's really interesting that this has been talked about for hundreds of years. And when people first started getting interested in politeness, there was a real sense of even back then that politeness standards were declining. So for as long as people have been interested in politeness, there is a sense that politeness is something that wasn't as good as it used to be, or something where morality is decaying in society. But that's not actually borne out by the linguistic evidence, unless we're thinking about times of change and the digital transition that we're going through at the moment.
- [06:26]
Mike Carruthers
Well, at a very fundamental level here, what's the purpose of politeness? Why be polite?
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Eva Jovic
I mean, people have been polite for
- [06:35]
Mike Carruthers
forever, but so what? I mean, what's the big deal?
- [06:40]
Louise Mullaney
That's a really great question. If we're not polite to one another, then our relationships will break down, we will enter into conflict with one another. And it is absolutely fundamental to getting on. And a lot of the linguistics research that I've been involved in, say for example, in workplaces, if the politeness is stripped down or the politeness isn't there, the work doesn't happen. The work doesn't take place because we can't get on with one another. So we need to have this amount of politeness between ourselves when we're interacting with one another to know that we like and respect each other. It's sometimes called paying attention to each other's face. So some researchers argue that we all have a face which is our public self image. And our face is something that we want to be liked and desired and admired, but it's also something that we don't want to have imposed upon too much. So there are different ways in which we think about politeness and have a kind of perception of wanting politeness, wanting people to like us, wanting to have good interpersonal relationships with each other. And if we think about, say, directness and indirectness as just an example, if we're from a culture that thrives on indirectness, such as American English or British English, then being too direct can be too much and we can think of the other person as being too rude. But if we think about other languages, Spanish, Greek, for example, directness is very, very fundamental. So things like give me that pen, or please could I borrow your pen, Those kind of social niceties that go around the edges vary from culture to culture. But behind all of our different cultures and all of our different desires and beliefs is that wish to really, really respect one another and to be liked and to be wanted and to be part of a community and part of a group.
- [08:28]
Mike Carruthers
It's interesting to watch people and see that most people seem to believe and act in a way that they understand that politeness serves a purpose. Being civil to others helps us all get along and move things forward. And people will be polite until there's a reason not to be. And a great example of this is
- [08:49]
Eva Jovic
like at the airport when the flight
- [08:51]
Mike Carruthers
gets canceled, and that guy who's gonna miss his plane and then miss his big meeting goes up to the ticket agent and starts screaming. And he can't actually think that that's going to help him get his way, but he does it anyway.
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Louise Mullaney
I think driving is a really good example to think about here in this particular context, because those are the kind of situations, say, like you say your airport example, where the flight's been delayed or the flight's been canceled, people may tend to lose their temper driving. It tends to happen quite frequently that people might actually lose their temper or swear, not do this. In other cases, they might gesticulate. You know, they might use gestures that they wouldn't necessarily use in their. In their everyday lives because partly because of the fear that you probably nearly crashed into someone or nearly run somebody over, but also with something like driving, there's a feeling that you're being protected. Quite often we're in transit when we're doing this. We might be moving in the opposite direction to a driver. So there is a sense that you can escape that space with something like the airport example. This is really interesting because the other side of the coin, of course, is impoliteness. And a lot of linguistics researchers have spent quite a lot of time now over the last 20, 30 years really looking at impoliteness as well, because there was a sense that only half of the coin, if you like itself, was being looked at. And when researchers started to look at impoliteness, there was an argument that you can actually see politeness more because you spot the bits where the boundaries are broken, and it's like you listening to someone at the airport or, you know, a conversation that's happening between people, say, out on a street, and they then start engaging in conflict with one another. The boundaries of politeness all of a sudden go out the window, and impoliteness comes to the fore. So there's a real sense that when the norms are broken and when conflict breaks out, particularly in public spaces, that enables you to spot both the politeness and the impoliteness, because the boundaries very clearly been broken and our expectations have been broken as well that somebody's behaving badly in public. That's why a lot of workplaces will now have policies on not being abusive to staff members, and may have that very visible in situations of service encounters where you may get conflict, such as airports, as a prime example.
- [11:07]
Mike Carruthers
But what works, though, in those cases, when things break down, how do you fix them?
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Louise Mullaney
Well, you need people on both sides to be willing to fix the relationship and to acknowledge the fact that they've done something wrong. And this is where apologies are a really great example of this. So quite recently, obviously, we've had a general election in the uk, and political language and political discourse and political interviews, anything that happens in the media is a really good area to look at when things go wrong. So if things go really wrong and you want to repair the relationship, then you need to apologise. If you are a public figure, like a politician, for example, then you would need to apologize quite often, not just on behalf of yourself, but on behalf of your government as well, or on behalf of a previous government. And that can be the only way in which relationships are healed and relationships then seal over if an apology is accepted.
- [12:10]
Mike Carruthers
But it does seem that in a lot of cases, when politeness breaks down, it's difficult to fix, at least at that moment. It's not, it's just somebody's going to have to walk away.
- [12:23]
Louise Mullaney
It depends on what lines across. So if we come back to the example of driving, for instance, if we think about road rage cases where things really escalate and things get really out of control, that will only be resolved quite often by the police coming and defusing the situation and actually getting involved in the legalities of certain cases. If politeness breaks down between family and friends and it's over a non serious issue, then it might not be so bad, we might forgive each other far more. So there are linguists that talk about different types of offence. So you might have a light offence, a medium offence or a heavy offence. And the weight of the offence will depend upon what's deemed necessary to repair the relationship. So say if I borrow your pen and I break it, I might, you know, say, mike, I'm really sorry, I've borrowed your pen, I've broken it, I'm really sorry. But it was only a biro, so it wasn't like it was something that was a kind of a high quality item. If I were to borrow your car, say, and crash your car, then the stakes are going to be much, much higher, much more serious. So the amount of apologizing I would need to do to repair the relationship would be much more significant. So it does depend on the seriousness of the offense that's actually being caused.
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Mike Carruthers
There is a sense, I think, that being polite means not saying what you
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Eva Jovic
really think, that you're trying to stay
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Mike Carruthers
within some boundaries, and that in some cases you're really being a bit fake, that you're just being polite. Oh, he's just being polite.
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Eva Jovic
He doesn't really say what he really feels.
- [13:57]
Mike Carruthers
What do you.
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Eva Jovic
You know, that's.
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Mike Carruthers
I think that's an image that politeness has, definitely.
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Louise Mullaney
And there's a really good notion in linguistics that we use that's called front stage and backstage. So your front stage Persona will be the one where you. You are saying what you might think that the other person wants to hear, but inside you're seething with rage. And the backstage area is. Are those areas where we're not on public display anymore. So we might be with family or with trusted friends, and we'll say, you know, you'll let off steam and say, oh, that person's driving me absolutely crazy. I can't believe what they just said. And that will be our arena, like. Like a therapy arena, really, where we reconcile those. Those relationships that are difficult or where people are saying things to us because we think they're just paying lip service. They're saying what we think we want them to hear, but not the actual reality of. Of what's. What's being of the message that's actually coming across moment in time. So there is a sense that people are nice to each other face to face, but backstage in reality, the truth will come out and we'll think, oh, they're just being polite, saying that. I know that's not what they really think. And other people will then get involved and say, well, you know, that's not what they said to me. And then, you know, things will. Will go from. You know, sometimes relationships will really deteriorate as people talk to one another and confidences might be broken and things that have been said backstage might come out front stage as well. There are some good examples of, again, just coming back to politics, very briefly, of when politicians don't know that the microphone is still switched on and they think that they're backstage, but really they're front stage and the audience can hear them. So there are examples of George W. Bush talking to Tony Blair a few years ago. At a summit where they thought they weren't being recorded or that they weren't being overheard, but the microphone in front of them was still switched on. So foreign policy was described swear words at that particular moment. So you're getting that access to the kind of real relationship between two people so the politeness goes out of the window that you would have in a very choreographed staged speech.
- [16:06]
Mike Carruthers
We're talking about the science of politeness and my guest is Louise Mullaney. She is author of the book the Art of Communication. At Home, at Work and in Public
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Mike Carruthers
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- [19:15]
Eva Jovic
that women are more polite than men.
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Mike Carruthers
Is that true?
- [19:20]
Louise Mullaney
It depends on context and what is borne out by the research is that it's not actually gender difference, but the difference that gender makes. So how we are evaluated and judged by one another. So a lot of the research that I've done in workplaces has found that men and women actually speak very similarly and the stereotype that women are more polite than men isn't true. But what is a consequence is the fact that women are perceived or are expected to be more polite than men. And when that expectation isn't met, then they are subject to more negative evaluation and judgment than men would be. So women are expected to apologise more because that's a social expectation. The idea of the stereotype of being very ladylike is very, very ingrained in multiple societies across the world. And the idea that you have to be more polite, that you'll be judged differently as a young girl to a young boy. The whole kind of boys will be boys is often used when boys are, you know, being boisterous or being loud. Whereas if girls are playing and they're not being polite, then that will be commented on more and it kind of comes through this process of socialization but then stays with with us through adulthood as well.
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Mike Carruthers
I wonder, since you brought up the fact that there's two sides to the coin. There's politeness and impoliteness. Even if men and women aren't, there's not much difference between who's more polite. Is there a difference as who's more impolite?
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Eva Jovic
Are men more impolite more often than women are?
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Louise Mullaney
In certain situations, yes. And again, I think this comes back to social stigma that if women lose their temper or start shouting and screaming in a public space, it can be more commented on than it can be for men. So you might get negative evaluations like, oh, she's just being hysterical here, or this is just really, really unacceptable behavior where whereas particularly in men's friendship groups, it's more of a stereotype for men to be loud and brash and, you know, to make jokes and to use sexualized language, for example, or to swear more often. And if women do that as part of their friendship groups, then that will be more stigmatized and it will be more frowned upon as something that isn't acceptable, particularly in public spaces.
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Mike Carruthers
Well, as I mentioned, that people have this perception a lot of the time that being polite, just being polite is lying, that you're saying what the other person wants to hear, not what you really think, and that that's wrong. Is that wrong? Or is being polite and lying? Sometimes the right thing to do depends
- [21:56]
Louise Mullaney
where you are and it depends what you're doing. So for example, if you're at work and you're interacting with your boss and you don't want to lose your job, then it would be very unwise to speak your mind all of the time because that's going to get you into difficult, particularly if you're expressing views in a rude manner or an impolite manner. If you're in a job interview, again, similar situation, it's quite a formal contact. So it would be unwise to really say what you think and give your full opinions on things when you know that you're being asked something slightly different or you know, you're in a very formal situation where you're expected to behave in a particular way. It depends on who you're talking to as well and your relationships with that person. So, for example, the more we get to know one another and the more intimate a relationship that we have so with our friends or partners or other close family members, then we may very well be able to speak our mind and that person will still speak to us the next day. However, if we don't have that kind of informal close relationship, then relationships can be quite badly damaged as a consequence of speaking one's mind. Because there's an expectation that we will look after one another as speakers. And sometimes, you know, say if somebody's had a bad haircut or you know, they've done something that they know is wrong, we might not necessarily want to turn around and say, you know, your hair does look terrible, you need to do something about that. You know, we want to protect their feelings and protect their, their face. So we might be very careful about how we broach difficult subjects or subjects where we know offense may be caused because we want to have a longer term relationship with that person and we don't want to hurt their feelings. As human beings, we're all aware of the fact that if we constantly spe our minds, and we don't abide by politeness. We are going to make enemies and we're not going to have very many friends. So there is a real inbuilt sense that we have that operates at quite a subconscious level as far as politeness is concerned, that unless we're happy to go around losing friends and being very negatively evaluated, we will use politeness as a tool to maintain our relationships with other people.
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Mike Carruthers
It does seem that there are parts of what are considered polite that seem a little weird. So for an example, you know, you're not supposed to. It's not polite to swear in front of women. Well, they know all the swear words too. I mean, this is not news to them. But, you know, the rules like that are seem like. I don't know if it. Antiquated, but kind of nonsensical.
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Louise Mullaney
Yeah. And something like that is a. Is a great example. And it comes back to the, the point that I was talking about earlier with gender, about women. Swearing is far more stigmatized than, than men swearing in those particular. In any particular context. You know, that idea of, oh, you can't swear in front of a woman is so arcane and so opposite of the truth of what's borne out when you actually collect data and do recordings of people. You know, the evidence is showing that women are swearing as much as men, but it is still more socially stigmatized to do so because of these historical traditions that women have got delicate ears and need to be protected from nasty language. Now, of course, all of that, I'm really tempted to swear, but I'm not going to. But all of that is. It's a stereotype and nothing more than a myth. And a lot of it is, you know, to allude to different power games in society or different levels of power, that women are constantly having their language clipped or having their language criticized, having them, you know, they're told, well, you can't speak like this. You can't swear. It's unladylike. It's not what you expect of, you know, of young women or old women. And that stereotype really sticks.
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Mike Carruthers
But is it fair to say that the rules of politeness are there because someone must keep upholding them, that if nobody cared, they would disappear?
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Louise Mullaney
Yeah, absolutely. And you're never going to live without politeness. It's always going to be something that's there as a. As a benchmark, as a fundamental marker of morality and civility. Coming back to those words, as we've talked about before, so the idea that we suddenly ditch politeness. If you could imagine if none of us oiled the social wheels in any way, shape or form, chaos would ensue very, very quickly. You know, there is a real need for us to respect one another and there's a real need for us to show that other people are important to us and that when we interact it's not just a free for all and that we don't other people's views and opinions. It's absolutely fundamental to society that we respect the rules of politeness. But of course, politeness is a good thing. It's so fundamental to human existence.
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Mike Carruthers
Well, that's what I wonder is that there's no politeness police. So who's upholding these standards? Who is it that is making sure that society plays by the rules of politeness?
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Louise Mullaney
I think we are the older generations of the politeness police. Parents of the politeness police, teachers of the politeness police. Obviously I'm using the term very loosely here, but we are socialized into societies and from the very moment that we start to acquire language, we are taught politeness by our parents because it's that fundamental to the learning process and to being socialized around one another. So, so from the age of about 2, parents will start to tell their children, say please, say thank you, say excuse me. Now, of course, at this age, children have absolutely no idea or no concept of what politeness is. But we do learn to acquire the language. We know that it's important because we're being told that it's important by the adults that are teaching us. That is one of the ways in which we, I guess we, we police one another. So in a way we, we learn that from generations that come before us. But that doesn't mean it's f all time norms will change and they'll shift and they'll drift. But politeness is absolutely fundamental to being able to cooperate with one another and being able to sustain relationships over time.
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Mike Carruthers
Well, when you think about it, politeness is really fundamental to getting along in the world. I mean, if you're not polite to people, you're not going to get very far. And understanding how it works and how it kind of paves the way for relationships and success, I think is really important.
- [28:27]
Snapdragon Announcer
Important.
- [28:27]
Mike Carruthers
I've been speaking with Louise Mullaney. She has taught the science of politeness at the University of Nottingham for several years and she is author of a book called the Art of Communication. At Home, at Work and in Public.
- [28:41]
Eva Jovic
And if you'd like to read the
- [28:42]
Mike Carruthers
book, there is a link to it at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you Louise. I appreciate you coming on today.
- [28:48]
Louise Mullaney
Thanks Mike. It's been an absolute pleasure being with you today. Thank you very much.
- [28:53]
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- [29:23]
Louise Mullaney
I'm Madison Skinner.
- [29:24]
Eva Jovic
I'm Eva Jovic.
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Sam Owens
I'm Decoria Moore.
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Eva Jovic
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Louise Mullaney
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Sam Owens
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- [29:41]
Mike Carruthers
You know, I don't do a lot of job or employment related segments on something you should know because I tend to believe that if people need help finding a job, they need help specific to their situation and general generic advice about getting a job. It really isn't all that helpful. But there's one portion of the job search process that I think some solid advice could really help just about anybody and that is the job interview and especially advice from my guest. Sam Owens is founder of Sam's Career Talk where he provides career coaching services and helps people land their dream jobs. He's worked as a chief marketing officer for three multi billion dollar companies and he's author of a book called I hate Job Interviews. Stop stressing. Start performing. Get the job you want. Hi Sam, thanks for coming on. Something you should know.
- [30:36]
Sam Owens
Hey, thank you Mike. Great to be here.
- [30:38]
Mike Carruthers
So a job interview, any job interview can be nerve wracking. I think a lot of people, if
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Eva Jovic
not most people, kind of dread going on them.
- [30:46]
Mike Carruthers
They're a necessary part of the process. But, but it's always so stressful.
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Sam Owens
Job interviewing is unlike a lot of other job search things like resumes and other things like that because you can't outsource it. It's in person. There's no do overs or edits. It's just a 45 minute conversation with you and the hiring manager and the stakes are very high in that 45 minutes. It could be an hour that completely changes the trajectory of your career or where you might live or something like that. And so I agree with you that job interviews have changed in the sense that some are virtual, some aren't. But the actual principles of job interviewing are very similar to what they were a few decades ago. And I think they're actually going to be very similar in a few decades from now.
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Eva Jovic
And what do you think is the biggest issue with job interviews? My sense is to throw it out. There is one of the big problems is people are so afraid of them that they go in to a job interview knowing so much is on the line that it can sometimes trip you up because you're so nervous and you, oh, did I say the right thing? And, oh, I wish I hadn't said that, and am I wearing the right clothes and all of that.
- [32:03]
Sam Owens
There's this paradox with job interviewing. One is you're right. People are very nervous going in, the stakes are very high. But at the same time, they, they have a sense that they don't really need to prepare super hard for them, maybe because they don't know how to prepare. But the biggest mistake I see is not actually just like one one way people answer questions. It's. I believe that if you're going to go into a job interview, you need to Prepare for about 10 hours for that job interview, which includes practice, it includes crafting your answers, it includes networking and to understand the company more. And the biggest mistake I see is they just. They just don't. They don't prepare. And preparation is what breeds that confidence. And when you don't walk in prepared, you kind of realize it right away, and it doesn't help on the confidence front one bit.
- [32:59]
Eva Jovic
Well, what you said about prepare your answers, I think one of the reasons people don't prepare is they don't know what. They don't know what the questions are going to be.
- [33:08]
Mike Carruthers
Yet I imagine that in most cases
- [33:10]
Eva Jovic
the questions are more or less the same. So tell me about yourself. Why should I hire you? You know, that kind of thing. But people think, well, I can't prepare because I have no idea what they're going to ask.
- [33:22]
Sam Owens
Very good. That is one of the myths that people perpetuate, not to prepare. And it is true that you could be asked a thousand different questions in a job interview. You don't know exactly the questions that you're going to be asked. But if you carefully read the job description and try to talk with people who are kind of familiar with the company, you will be able to take a thousand questions and realize that they're Only going to ask, they might ask you a thousand questions, but they are only going to ask you a handful of question types and they're only going to be trying to assess a handful of skills and that that is given to you, spoon fed to you in the job description. So once you have the job description, you can now say, all right, I kind of know the skills and the types of questions they're going to be asked. So I can create these power stories, things that I've done in my career that demonstrate why I am a great fit for this job and why I have those skills. And you probably need 7 to 10 of those power stories that you create and then you can kind of tweak those stories depending on which one of the thousand questions you're asked.
- [34:29]
Mike Carruthers
So give me an example of a
- [34:31]
Eva Jovic
power story just to give me a sense of like, how long is it, how does it start, where does it go, how does it end? So maybe an example would help.
- [34:40]
Sam Owens
Sure. First of all, when people say what kind of power stories, it is supposed to be directly rated to the job description and it's supposed to be your best stuff. Right. No one goes. No one goes and sees the Beach Boys for the new, their new single. Right. You know, it's like you're playing the hits. Okay, so this is your best stuff you want to prepare. But if you see in the job description that someone that the job description wants to assess analytical ability, they're looking for someone highly analytical. That's an opportunity for you to step back and say, okay, when have I demonstrated analytical ability in my career? And you can put that into a format. I call it the spar format, Situation, problem, action, result, where you were given a task. Maybe your inventory management system was completely out of whack. Okay, And I was given this task. And, and so here's what I did. I created an Excel file that modeled all the inventory. I, you know, did A, B and C. And in the end we wound up saving a certain amount of money or there was some sort of good outcome. So you want to structure it. It almost like a Disney movie or any movie where there's a hero who encounters a problem, solves the problem, and then everything works out great in the end. That's how you want to structure your power stories.
- [36:00]
Eva Jovic
And how long should it be
- [36:04]
Sam Owens
if someone asks you tell me about a time when you demonstrated leadership and you're going to give them a spar story? I'd say two to four minutes. Anything less than two, you might not be really digging in and Helping them understand what you did. Anything more than four, you're almost certainly rambling.
- [36:24]
Mike Carruthers
Do you think? Because I have a sense of this.
- [36:28]
Eva Jovic
But do you think that people make up their mind whether or not. Well, maybe they don't make up their mind whether they're going to hire you in the first few seconds, but they'll make up their mind that they're not going to hire you because something happens or some impression you make or like. It's easy to cross this guy off my list, and I knew it from the minute he walked in the room.
- [36:53]
Sam Owens
There are some studies on this. I cite one in my book. I think it was something like 20 or 30% of people make up their minds in the first five minutes. But first impressions do matter. And particularly that question, Mike, of tell me about yourself. You don't want to look at that question as a throwaway or a warm up. Oh, I'm, you know, I like this. I like that. Yeah. Great to know you. If they could rearrange how they wanted to ask that first question, Tell me about yourself, they would say, tell me why you're the perfect person for this job and why this is going to be the best meeting of my day. Because I can just hire you and I don't have to keep interviewing people because I don't like interviewing people. So it's an opportunity in the first question to start with my momentum by showing them that you're through your experiences, that you're qualified for the job, that you're a high performer and that you're really interested in the job. So. So I don't think it's everything. Certainly not. But starting with momentum is very important.
- [37:51]
Mike Carruthers
So that. So tell me about yourself Question.
- [37:54]
Eva Jovic
What is that question asking?
- [37:56]
Mike Carruthers
What, what is it that you.
- [37:57]
Eva Jovic
Well, I was born in, you know, Columbus, Ohio. I mean, where, where do you even jump in to that question?
- [38:05]
Sam Owens
Yep. Reframe it to tell me why you're the perfect fit for this job. That's what they really want to know. And so you walk them through chronologically your experiences, whether it's work experience or school. And in each of those experiences, you talk briefly about the scope of responsibility and how it applies to the job. And you also weave in things that happen that demonstrate you're a high performer. You were selected to be on a committee, you were promoted after a short amount of time. You delivered X result. So you do that through your experiences. And then when you're done explaining why you're a good fit for the job and why you're a High performer. Then you turn the tables and talk about why the job is so good for you. And you help them understand that while things might be going well at your current job, there's certain things about this job that make you so excited and you believe you can offer a lot, but also you're going to learn a lot in the job as well. Because they want to know. You know, it's kind of like a dating situation. They want to know you're qualified, but they also want to know you're excited about them too. You know, they kind of want to know that if they gave you a job offer, you'd be happy about it and you'd accept it.
- [39:17]
Eva Jovic
One of the things that I've noticed is there's a real talent here, a real skill, and oftentimes the person who gets the job isn't the best qualified for the job. It's the person who's good at getting jobs that they have that whatever that is, they can walk into a room and just nail it. And then they get the job and it's like, oh, geez, why'd we hire this guy? But they're good at getting the job. And the reverse of that is that a lot of people who would be good at getting or who would be good at the job don't have that and get kind of ignored.
- [39:55]
Sam Owens
That's who I want to help. That's exactly right. Really, it's an imperfect process, but a 45 minute interview with a couple people can determine whether you get that job or not. And employers know that too. Employers know they're taking a risk and they know that it's not perfect, but it's kind of the best we have right now. I mean, I think that's why internships were developed and other things, but it's kind of the best we have. So what I don't want is for someone who would be really great in a job to have a disadvantage because they haven't learned the technique and practiced sufficiently to get the job. Because what happens a lot of times they go in and think, well, I'm really qualified for the job, so I should get it. And that is not always the case. And it's such a shame because if they had prepared a little bit more, they could get it.
- [40:43]
Eva Jovic
I often wonder too, if the person who's interviewing you. I mean, I've had businesses and I've interviewed and hired people and I have to admit, I didn't really know what I was doing. I mean, I didn't. I mean, I thought I Could kind of figure it out, but it's a lot harder to wade through a bunch of resumes and meet all these people. And like, I never felt that an awful lot of interviewers are all that good at it.
- [41:12]
Sam Owens
That's true. Most are not good at it. And that's another myth that you don't want to walk into an interview thinking, oh, this job interviewer is an expert at interviewing. Many times they're not many times they just need someone on their team. So you have to learn how to take the bull by the horn, so to speak, and guide the conversation and still have an amazing interview. So if someone says, are you a good leader? That's a terrible interview question, by the way. You could just say, well, yes, I am. You know, that's a terrible interview question, but people ask it. The proper answer, if you wanted to take the bull by the horns would be, you know, I do have some, some leadership qualities that I believe are applicable for this job. Why don't I, if it's okay, walk you through just an example of how I've demonstrated leadership in the past and they'll say, oh, great, yeah, I mean, I should have asked that question anyway the right way, but I didn't. So. Yeah, that's right. It's not an exact science. It's tricky. I also think in addition to having an amazing interview, this is where it's very helpful to have, if you have references or any sort of connection with the company that you ask people to kind of write letters of recommendation proactively and kind of pile on after you have a good interview. Because that just minimizes the risk for them. It just makes them feel better about saying yes.
- [42:30]
Eva Jovic
I like that idea where you, you kind of, especially with somebody who doesn't know how to do interviews, to kind of take the interview away from them and say, well, why don't I walk you through this?
- [42:40]
Mike Carruthers
Because they're probably going, thank God.
- [42:42]
Eva Jovic
Yeah, take it, buddy, run. And absolutely, you're going to spoon feed
- [42:46]
Sam Owens
me, make this easy for me. Great.
- [42:48]
Eva Jovic
Exactly. But what about people? I think there's a perception anyway, and you tell me if it's true or not, that timid, introverted people are at a disadvantage in a job interview.
- [43:00]
Sam Owens
There is a perception, particularly by introverts who are preparing for an interview, they'll use that as a way to say, well, I'm an introvert. You know, it's. Extroverts have the advantage. That's not been my experience. I find that introverts, their weakness is that they need to sometimes show a little bit more enthusiasm. But their answers are often very deliberate and well thought out and concise. Extroverts are wonderful at kind of palling around and building relationships, but they have a tendency to ramble. You know, they kind of, it's what do they say? Speak to think versus think to then speak. You know, extroverts tend to think, speak so that they can think. And so no, I don't believe that introverts have a disadvantage. I think people who prepare for poorly have a disadvantage.
- [43:52]
Eva Jovic
What are some other common questions that trip people up? Because like I'm amazed I can remember. I'm amazed when I was hiring people when you asked. So tell me about yourself.
- [44:04]
Mike Carruthers
People get that look on their face
- [44:05]
Eva Jovic
like, well, God, I didn't see that coming. And I think thing, well, how could you not see that coming?
- [44:11]
Sam Owens
It's the first question to every single job interview. Yeah, I know. I think there are, there's various different question types, you know, behavioral questions and you questions and stuff like that. One question for competitive jobs that, that trips people up a lot is what I call the scenario or case question, which is an open ended question. When you're presented with a scenario or problem or even something as simple as tell me how you would make my business better or tell me how would you approach your first 90 days on the job? And that can really trip people up because of the open ended nature of it. And it can trip people up because they can sometimes start talking and then kind of get lost in their answer and then realize they're rambling and it makes it worse and it can be a challenge. And so there is a model for that. I call it the home base model, which is, is you establish a kind of core principle in the very beginning of your response and then you can kind of explore paths along that but always come back to that home base. So if someone asks you how would you approach the first 90 days? Someone might say, well, I just take everyone out to lunch. Well, that's kind of going down a path a little too quickly. You could say, you know, the first 90 days I really want to learn what I need to know and I want to contribute what you know what, what I think would be reasonable to contribute in that first 90 days. Okay, so now you have a foundation. All right, now let's talk about learning. Here's how I go about learning. I take people to lunch, I'd study documents, I do this. Okay, back to home base. Let's talk about contributing. Here's how I would look to contribute. So it just gives candidates a little bit of a structure to where they feel like they can have a conversation without always being worried about, what am I going to say next? What am I going to say next? And so. So the scenario and case question takes some practice, but if you can get that model down, it starts to become much more comfortable over time.
- [46:11]
Mike Carruthers
I would imagine everybody listening who's been on a job interview has gone home and thought back on the interview and thought, oh, why did I say that when I could have said this and come up with a better answer? But you're so pressured in an interview to respond right away that a quick response isn't always the best response.
- [46:35]
Sam Owens
In those cases, it's actually okay to pause a little bit and think, you know, hey, yeah, just give me. Can I just take a couple, you know, half a minute and think about this for a second? Interviewers are typically totally fine with that. So you can kind of pause, gather your thoughts, and then proceed.
- [46:52]
Eva Jovic
I know when I've talked to other people about this topic, people who write
- [46:57]
Mike Carruthers
books about this topic, there's always often
- [47:02]
Eva Jovic
the elements of, you know, your eye contact and handshake and what you wear and all of that.
- [47:07]
Mike Carruthers
How important is that?
- [47:09]
Eva Jovic
And if it is important, then I'd like to hear your advice.
- [47:13]
Sam Owens
I think it's important. It's not going to get you the job, but it can be a real deterrent for you to lose the job. That makes sense. So, you know, someone who comes in in sweatshirts, shakes your hand, doesn't make eye contact, you're already kind of in the penalty box a little bit. You got to do a lot to come out of that. I think what the expectation is is that you come in handshake, smile, thanks so much for having me. You're dressed appropriately, and what I say is dress not to impress. What I mean by that is you just don't want the focus to be on how you were dressed. You don't want to be in sweatshirts, but you probably don't want to be in a tux either. Find out what the dress code is and maybe dress just a little nicer than that. That. And so then the interviewer can focus on you and your qualifications and not the way you look.
- [48:03]
Mike Carruthers
How many.
- [48:04]
Eva Jovic
Do we have any sense now of how many of these things are done virtually versus in someone's office?
- [48:10]
Sam Owens
I don't know percentages, but I know it's getting more and more back to in office, especially if it's a serious position. What I see many Times is that the first interview screening is typically virtual. But if it's a competitive position and they're really serious about hiring you, they're going to bring you in and want you to be there in person. And so I actually think preparing for both types is very similar. The only difference in the virtual side is you can have some notes kind of on your screen that they can't see. But other than that, I don't really tell them to do anything differently. There's a lot of people out there that want to make money saying, hey, the game's totally changed. You got virtual. It's not the same as it was because it's very similar.
- [48:54]
Eva Jovic
What else do you find, lastly, that people maybe don't understand or they. They miss opportunities because they don't get this particular thing.
- [49:04]
Sam Owens
One of the biggest things, just to be specific, that I see in an interviewee, a candidate, very common mistake. When someone asks, tell me about a time when you demonstrated your ability to work well with others. Too many people will, Instead of answering the question which is giving a story, they will say, well, I. I love working with others, and I've been given feedback that I'm really good with working with others. And, you know, and so that they, they answer the question such that they're kind of giving platitudes and speeches, but they're actually not giving a specific story of how they demonstrated it. And as such, they're not answering the question fully. And it's. It has much less impact. The other element of not doing this is people are always worried about being arrogant in an interview. How do I. How do I promote myself without being arrogant? And stories are perfect for that because you take yourself out of the equation. You're not saying, I'm an amazing leader. You just happen to be telling a story that you're in that demonstrates leadership, and they're drawing their own conclusions that you're an amazing leader. So the power of stories can't. Specific stories can't be underestimated. And I think that's a big miss. If interviewers, interviewees, excuse me, don't really try to tell a tight story.
- [50:27]
Mike Carruthers
Well, that's great advice, and if nothing else, I think it highlights the fact that preparation is important because I think it's so easy to say, well, there's no way to know what they're going to ask, so I'll just wing it and do the best I can and everything should be fine. And you've demonstrated that that's really a bad approach. Sam Owens has been my guest. He's founder of Sam's Career Talk, where he provides career coaching services and helps people land their dream jobs. And he is author of a book called I Hate Job Interviews. Stop stressing, Start performing. Get the job you want. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thank you Sam.
- [51:07]
Sam Owens
Thanks a lot Mike. Nice to meet you. Appreciate your help and having me on.
- [51:14]
Mike Carruthers
I imagine that sometime, somewhere, somehow, someone told you that MSG is bad for you. Well, not so fast. MSG Monosodium glutamate is a naturally occurring phenomenon in foods such as meat and milk, fish, cheese. It enhances flavor and makes things taste better. So how did it get such a bad rap? Well, back in the 60s, a doctor wrote an article blaming MSG for some strange symptoms that he experienced after eating in a Chinese restaurant. Before long, people started talking about Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, accusing MSG of making them sick. Since then, countless studies have been done on msg, and none of them have found any pattern of symptoms which could be attributed to a reaction from eating msg. Most experts agree that some people may be sensitive or allergic to msg, but those cases are pretty rare. Like a lot of things, too much MSG can pose a problem. But generally speaking, MSG is just fine. And that is something you should know. If you enjoyed this episode of Something you should Know, Perhaps a discussion about politeness or how to get a job interview. I'll bet someone you know would also benefit from it as well. So please share this podcast with as many people as you can. It would really help us out and I'd appreciate it. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.
- [52:50]
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