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Something You Should Know
The Surprising Toll of Life’s Daily Hassles & What Exactly is American Cuisine?
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- [00:01]
Mike Carruthers
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- [01:48]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
It was I think Muhammad Ali who had said, it's not in the mountains that wear us out. It's the pebbles in our shoe. And there's a lot of evidence that having many hassles in your everyday life really can take an even bigger toll on our health than major life events.
- [02:04]
Mike Carruthers
Also, can being happy improve your health? Sort of. And what is American cuisine? It's kind of hard to define.
- [02:13]
Paul Friedman
However, there are some things that Americans like that few other people do. Like peanut butter or maple syrup. You know, this is not a popular item in the rest of the all.
- [02:28]
Mike Carruthers
This today on something you should know at this point. I think it's just become common practice that if you have a business and you sell online, Shopify is the way to go. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business, whether you're selling holiday gifts or auto parts or gourmet food, it doesn't matter. Shopify is there to help you grow. From the launch your online shop stage to the first real life store stage, all the way up to the did we just hit a million order stage? Here's what I love about Shopify. It's not just a platform. They have these great tools that help you sell more. For example, they have the Internet's best converting checkout, 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. They have this thing, it's the Shopify Bundles app, where you can create and sell product bundles with ease so you sell more. They also have something called the Shopify Collective. You can curate products to sell from other brands, brands you love, giving your customers more variety and your business more sales. Come on, it's time to check out Shopify. Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Shopify.comSYSK Something you should know Fascinating intel.
- [04:07]
Paul Friedman
The world's top experts and practical advice.
- [04:11]
Mike Carruthers
You can use in your life today. Something youg Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something you should Know. Yeah, I'm not a real big germaphobe, but when I first came across this first story I'm about to tell you about, I just, I ran to a sink and washed my hands. You know, even though we're becoming more conscious of germs and the need to clean and disinfect things, one thing many of us are not especially careful about is our cell phones. Various studies have been published with headlines like, your cell phone has more germs on it than a toilet seat. Which is likely true, but of course, not all germs are harmful. Still, when you think about it, your phone has a lot of opportunity to pick up germs and bacteria because you take it everywhere, you put it down in all kinds of places on all kinds of surfaces, so it's exposed to a lot of germs that can hitch a ride. There was a video put out a while ago that showed that, for example, a toilet seat has about 1200 bacteria per square inch. A kitchen counter has about 1700, a checkout screen at a supermarket has 4500 bacteria per square inch, a doorknob has about 8600, and a cell phone has about 25,000. So it's really important to clean your phone and clean it. Often there are products specifically designed for this job, or you can just use a gentle cloth with a mixture of 60% water and 40% isopropyl alcohol. But you should not use conventional household spray cleaners because they're too harsh for the screen, or paper towels because they can be too rough and scratch the screen. And that is something you should know. Just the fact that you are alive and listening to this means you are well aware of how life can wear you down. Yeah, there are those big events that come along and hit you hard. But what I'm talking about today are the little things, the daily hassles, those things that happen that shouldn't happen, but they happen anyway, and they're irritating and they take up your time and they create frustration and anxiety and you know what I mean. Most of us likely don't have much of a strategy to deal with these inevitable, seemingly minor events. So meet Dr. Sarah Boardman. Sarah is a clinical instructor in psychiatry and attending psychiatrist at Weill Cornell Medical College. She's founder of positiveprescription.com and author of the book Everyday Vitality Turning Stress into Strength. Hi, Sarah, Welcome. Thanks for coming on. Something you should know.
- [07:05]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Hi. Thanks for having me.
- [07:07]
Mike Carruthers
Why should we worry about and talk about the seemingly small hassles that we all face every day? I mean, it's part of. We deal with them as best we can. So as a psychiatrist, what do you see as the problem with all these hassles?
- [07:22]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
You know, it was, I think, Muhammad Ali who had said, it's not in the mountains that wear us out. It's the pebbles in our shoe. And there's a lot of evidence to support, you know, the idea that having many hassles in your everyday life really can add up. And not only, like, in the moment, it affects you psychologically and physically, but they also stay with you and they accumulate and they add up over time, and they can take an even bigger toll on our health than major life events.
- [07:52]
Mike Carruthers
Well, who hasn't woken up in the morning and it's a great day, and then life starts happening and then this happens and then this goes wrong and the car won't start. And by noon, that great day sucks, Right?
- [08:08]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
And, you know, I think some people by temperament, they're maybe born that way. They're more, maybe Teflon than they are Velcro. And for some of us, I'd say, certainly myself, I tend to be a little bit more Velcro. And that stuff really sticks with me. I think most React by then assuming that this is going to be a horrible day. And as these accumulate over the course of the day that you sort of just double down. And we end up like our coping strategies are often the exact opposite of the thing that would make us feel strong. It's when we sort of think, I deserve to order a fried egg and cheese right now for lunch, or spend the afternoon or the evenings watching TV until late at night. And we end up with what they call a guilty couch potato syndrome. And we end up choosing activities that are further depleting and that make us feel even worse.
- [09:00]
Mike Carruthers
Well, and you say that the antidote for this is vitality, which seems to be the thing that all these little hassles suck away from you. So what do you mean by that and what do you mean by vitality? What is it?
- [09:14]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Well, vitality is that positive feeling of aliveness and energy that I think is at the very heart of well being. And it's something that we don't really talk about enough. It's a physical and psychological experience. And why I think it's so important is because it helps us manage everyday hassles and just those annoying irritations, those micro stressors that are embodied in the fabric of everyday life.
- [09:43]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, well, don't you think though that how you perceive your day is a lot of that is in your head, that if, you know, if you're one of those people who just complains and complains about every little thing that happens and you see your day through that very negative lens, well, then that's your day. Somebody else could be having the same day and think it's a great day. It really depends on, don't you think, on how you perceive it?
- [10:12]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Well, 100%. And I think our expectations shape so much of what we experience when we are sort of overwhelmed and we're feeling that accumulation of hassles and the hassles themselves aren't really problematic, it's how we perceive them. Like, you know, is this really going to pummel me? Are these pebbles in my shoe really adding up? And what we need to counter them is uplift. And uplifts, I mean, being sort of experiences that create positive emotion and there's a lot of uplift imposters. And I think that are ultimately vampires of vitality. And that is when we reach for our phones and we fall into that hole or when we end up canceling our plans or doing those unhealthier behaviors. But really uplifts, they don't happen in your head. They're really Embodied actions in what we do. And I think we create these uplifts that buffer these hassles. And it's in our having positive interactions and communications with other people when we feel like we're connecting well with others. And it could be with our loved ones, with a stranger, it could be an Uber driver. It just is having some kind of connections and I think those fortify us. The second thing that really helps, you know, I think us manage those hassles by creating uplifts is when we feel like we're contributing to something beyond ourselves, that we're sort of doing something somehow for someone else. And it's not that you have to go away and join the Peace Corps, but just in some small ways that you're doing things for others and what your day feels purposeful. Then in the third way is that when you feel like you're challenging yourself in a positive way, that maybe you're learning something, you are stretching yourself in some way that thinks, wow, I have some form of self efficacy in me. These are really actions that we can take. They don't cost anything, but we really need to prioritize them and be deliberate about creating uplifts in our everyday lives to manage these hassles and so that they don't take such a toll on us.
- [12:06]
Mike Carruthers
Well, it's interesting as we discuss this and zero in on it, I don't think people necessarily realize the toll that these hassles take because by their nature they're small and any one of them is probably not the end of the world. And we deal with them individually and we don't realize the cumulative effect of these everyday hassles.
- [12:31]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
I think it was Chekhov who said, any idiot can handle a crisis. It's the day to day living that wears us out. And I think it's, it depends on the, you know, for one person, you know, on that day it might be like two things that go wrong or five things. And we're not, I don't think we're accountants, we're not keeping score. But what often happens is, you know, we just end up with this overall feeling of unhappiness, of just irritation or aggravation. And that, that really does shape how we're approaching everything else and how other hassles are affecting us.
- [13:06]
Mike Carruthers
And so you're suggesting that we create these uplifts in life to counteract and to fend off the wear and tear of all the hassles of everyday life by doing, specifically by doing things like what?
- [13:21]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Yeah. No. So here's A really concrete example of that. And it would be, first of all, it's not doing the things that are depleting a vitality and engaging in those vampires of vitality, which is, okay, I'm just going to cancel my plan, stay home, get lost in a social media rant or something like that. But what can make me feel good, a classic uplift would be, I'm going to go for a walk outside, I'm going to leave my phone at home, and I'm going to look around me, and I'm not going to have earphones in or earbuds in. Look deliberately for something that delights you in some way. And what's interesting is you start looking for something that will delight you, you end up building that delight muscle. There's a wonderful book called the Book of Delights that I loved a lot, written by a philosopher at the University of Chicago. And it really talks about how when we're sort of priming ourselves for this, and you can be doing this, and you need to do it all the more when you're having a tough day. And I think you need to really override your inclination to go down that rabbit hole and feel worse. And there's a lot of evidence. One way to do that would be to use what psychologists call self distancing. When you think to yourself, well, what would I advise a friend in this moment to do? Or sometimes I ask my patients to be on you. What would be the opposite of the thing you feel like doing right now? Even think of somebody you admire, what would they do in this moment? Because it can help lift us out of ourselves. I think so much of psychology and psychiatry, we assume it's happening in people's heads, but actually how we feel really depends on sort of how we're interacting with the world. And activities, actions that we take, can really shape how we feel.
- [15:07]
Mike Carruthers
So I want to get a better sense of the timing of all this. Just because, you know, it's my personality that if I have some hassle going on, if I just discovered, for example, that, you know, my credit card was billed for something it shouldn't have been billed on, it's hard for me to get up and go for a walk because I want to go solve that problem first, then I maybe could go for a walk. What's the timing of this? Do you fix the problem and then go for a walk? Do you go for a walk and fix the problem while you're walking? Or do you just push everything aside, go for a walk and come back? Or what's your, what's your sense of that?
- [15:46]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
We know from, you know, there's so much evidence that points to maybe on that walk. Distancing yourself from some of those hassles might help you find some clarity to help you actually solve them. And I think that game of Walk a Mole that we're playing all the time, you know, that actually when you sort of pause the game and you walk away from it, you might be a little bit more effective when you return. I mean, I think there's loads of evidence showing that most people have even bigger breakthrough moments. Physicists, artists, looking at, you know, across different disciplines. It's, you know, we often hear about those in the shower moments. Like, that's when somebody, like, thinks, you know, oh, wait a minute, I've just solved that problem. But there's really evidence showing that that is, is the case. So it's often when we're not thinking about the thing we need to be thinking about, that we, I think, clear our minds and we're able to, I think, be more effective in the way we solve those problems and deal with those hassles.
- [16:41]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, well, that truly is my experience that if I sit here and try to hammer out a solution, it's a lot harder and probably a worse solution than if I go take a shower and then things just pop into my head. Psychiatrist Dr. Sarah Boardman is my guest. The name of her book is Everyday Turning Stress into Strength. So I want to talk to you if you have a lot to do this time of year and also have to hire someone, like, you really need that to add to your to do list. But if that's the case, really, it's time to try Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to INDEED Data, and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast and without all the busy work and paperwork. And here's what I love about indeed. They walk you through the entire process of matching just the right person to the job opening you have, and they do it really well. In fact, three and a half million businesses worldwide use INDEED to hire great talent fast. So they must be pretty good at what they do in the minute. I've been talking to you. 23 hires were made on INDEED according to INDEED Data worldwide. Look, you can try to wing it by yourself, or you can put Indeed to work to help you get the right person quickly. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@indeed.com something. Just go to indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Need to hire you. Need Indeed. If I asked you what's one thing you'd like to do right now to improve yourself? Your health? Your well being? I suspect near the top of that list is drop some weight. So if you're struggling with losing weight and need some extra help, it's time to check out hers. The holistic program from hers gives you access to personalized solutions like GLP1 weekly injections that have the same active ingredient as Ozempic and WeGovy and oral medication kits. Hers connects you with a medical provider who will create a personalized treatment plan just for you. Then if prescribed, you get the medication as part of a doctor developed weight loss program and it includes ongoing care and online support, all at no additional cost. Through hers. Weight loss plans are more affordable with compounded GLP1 injections starting at $199 a month with a 12 month subscription paid upfront. Start your free online Visit today at fourhers.com sysk that's F-O-R-H-E-R-.com sysk for your personalized weight loss treatment options. Forhers.com sysk hers weight loss is not available everywhere. Compounded products are not FDA approved or verified for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required restrictions apply. WeGovy and Ozempic are not compounded so Sarah, it's interesting to think about it as we were discussing how one of the best ways to deal with or solve a problem is to get away from it, to not try to solve it, to think about something else. That it is in the getting away from it that the clarity comes.
- [20:25]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Yeah, no, that clarity and that perspective. And I think when you're often like even using your body in some way or you're doing something where your mind is occupied by something other than that thing you need to solve. It's even when you have some kind of hobby or something that you are engaged in. Even if you're reading a work of fiction or you're just going to work on some I have one patient who does puzzles like she does puzzling. You know, when she's stressed out and it is this and she was reluctant like you, she was like oh, I just want to get that stuff done and then I can get to that stuff. And she's found it's been really helpful to even take those breaks, distract herself and then come back to what's bugging her.
- [21:09]
Mike Carruthers
I find, and I imagine this is somewhat human nature, that if you have a problem, if there is something going on that's getting in the way of being happy, that ruminating about it is a lot worse than doing something about it, that taking action, anything is going.
- [21:26]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
To make you feel better 100%. And rumination is truly an on ramp to depression and anxiety. And rumination is that experience when you're just going over and over and over again the same issue in your head. It's like that ticker tape running on the bottom of the screen, except it's on your, you know, in your brain, you know, worried about something that you should have done or that is going to happen in the future. And you know, there's research out there that shows how much behavior activation therapy works. And when you're, you know, because it's one thing to have an insight in your mind even or have a greater understanding about why you do what you do, but if you're not acting on it like you're still kind of in the same place.
- [22:09]
Mike Carruthers
It also seems to me that when you're handling those day to day hassles, what you're saying to yourself, particularly about yourself, can have a real impact on how you view the problem, how you solve the problem. And trying to be conscious not to beat yourself up in your own head is probably a real helpful strategy.
- [22:34]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Yeah, no, that's really interesting. And it goes, it sort of dovetails with what we were speaking about earlier too, with self distancing. Another technique that I found is helpful is when you remove yourself from the situation in your mind by thinking like, what would a fly on the wall observing this situation? Like, what would they be? How would they be describing this? And that can also interrupt some of that really negative self talk that can be so paralyzing. Another strategy could be if my future self were looking back at this moment, what would my future self advise me to do? And what would they say about this again, to interrupt that rumination when you're just stewing in it. Other research shows that with rumination, one of the best ways to disrupt it is to go for a walk in nature. And even a short walk seems to, I think, just shift perspective and actually get us out of our own heads. And sometimes I think when we're out of our own heads, that's where we have this perspective and sense of clarity and that we're able to make better choices and even maybe solve some problems as well.
- [23:42]
Mike Carruthers
So far we've talked mostly about dealing with trouble, with hassles, with problems of everyday life and strategies to do that. But you had mentioned in the beginning of this conversation about vitality, about living life with, I guess like a sparkle. So let's talk about that.
- [24:01]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
One thing that I think, you know, we know how important it is to eat well and to sleep well and to exercise and those sort of lifestyle interventions. But one thing we don't, I think, maybe speak enough about is how having close friends in relationships is really the secret sauce of mental health. But how do we work at those relationships? Because we often see people who are high achievers and we think, oh, aren't they great? They're heroes. They've done this all on their own. And we don't recognize that huge network of people behind them who have helped them achieve and get to this place.
- [24:38]
Mike Carruthers
What are some of the other science backed strategies that people could possibly use to, you know, to live their life, to have that vitality that you're talking about that we haven't talked about so far.
- [24:50]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
One of the best strategies that we have for not only managing hassles and stress in daily life, but also for just feeling good and strong is doing something for somebody else. I think that it's really an undervalued wellspring of vitality in our lives. And the next thing is really when we do feel challenged, when we're engaging in something that is really stretching us in some way, which might be the opposite of the thing that we want to do. But looking at studies, it shows that people are less burned out at work when they have hobbies outside of work that they. And the thing about having a hobby is it's something that you do that you don't need to excel in. It's something you do just for the love of the game and something that's just fun. And even making peace with being sort of mediocre at something and just doing it because it's joyful and it's really fun. And you know, when we do something, there's so much research out there too, showing that when we do something instead of trying to, if we have a goal, if we're. Instead of trying to make it something, that we're taking away something like people who want to lose weight or stop smoking. The goals that seem to be the most productive are the ones that we do with somebody else. And it's fun and that engage our strengths. That to me is really important for vitality because in psychiatry I spent a lot of time kind of trying to focus on what makes People less miserable. And then I ended up studying positive psychology and I got a master's in positive psychology looking at actually what makes people thrive and what is what gives them a sense of purpose and even what helps them find wellness within illness or strength within their everyday stress. And consistently, like, reliably across the board, it's where they experience uplifts, where they feel connected with others, where they feel challenged, and where they feel like they're contributing to something beyond themselves.
- [26:41]
Mike Carruthers
So often, though, it seems that doing those things, doing something for somebody else or, you know, trying to develop relationships, those are all the things you don't want to do when things aren't going well. It's like you said earlier, it's exactly the opposite of what you should be doing is what you feel like doing.
- [27:02]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
No, it's really interesting in how our brains are that we do the opposite all the time and how our expectations are so different. Here's an interesting example with gratitude that people just oftentimes they just don't express it or they just think it's going to be really awkward if they say something to somebody or like, oh, that person already knows that, or gee, I can't even find the words to say it correctly. Maybe, like if I write a note, it'll be awkward and strange and they'll think that I don't, you know, I'm not articulate enough in some way. But how we so underestimate the benefit, like how good that person is going to feel when they receive that and also how good it's going to make us feel having written it. Another example of where we sort of get it grossly wrong is we assume that we're going to be. That we're happier when we're just sort of by ourselves, and that we don't really want to have a conversation with anybody. And that, you know, being like that, we choose solitude so often over connection and that we think that connection is going to drain us or that we don't really feel like it. And studies show that people in general feel so much better having had a brief conversation with somebody that that again, sort of lifts us out of ourselves, our distorted sort of expectations of how something will make us feel. And then the reality of that, I think, creates this opportunity squandered.
- [28:29]
Mike Carruthers
You know, that's so true. And, you know, the perfect example is the thank you note. Nobody sends thank you notes. And one of the reasons is that it's like overstating it. It's like, you know, I'm grateful, but I don't want to sound like too gushy. And yet the person who gets the thank you note is like, oh my God, that's great. Thank you. That's great. Thanks for sending the thank you note. It makes them feel wonderful. But people don't send them because they don't want to. Like they're too gushy.
- [28:59]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Yes. And it's just this missed opportunity there to make that the recipient is going to feel so good. And they don't, you know, they don't care that it's like a, you know, 10 page letter, just a nice note saying why it was meaningful. And also express. Sometimes I think we talk a lot about gratitude and people make gratitude lists, but they're usually very like self oriented. When we're expressing gratitude, it's about other people saying thank you so much for that thing. Like, you know, the way you, you do that really I admire, don't make gratitude about you. And you know, one way that I think that can really help people maybe feel a little bit, you know, more comfortable writing gratitude letters or just thank you letters as well is make it easy on yourself. Buy some stamps, have a, some stationery sitting there so you don't have to think of all these different little moving parts that you need to do to get that gratitude letter in the mail. And I have to say whenever I receive one, I have a gratitude wall that I put it up on because it's so valuable. It's really gold when someone does that and it's really generous.
- [30:04]
Mike Carruthers
Well, you know what stands out to me and what you're saying is that and this kind of ties a bow around all we've been talking about is you really have to be intentional because it's so easy for life and the little hassles of life to knock you around, push you down if you let it. And if you're a little more intentional about keeping those things in perspective, handling them in a way where you don't get absorbed by them and just doing the things that you're talking about that help you keep the right attitude as you work through the day makes a big difference. I've been speaking with Dr. Sarah Boardman. She's a clinical instructor in psychiatry and attending psychiatrist at Weill Cornell Medical College. She's founder of positiveprescription.com and she is author of the book Everyday Vitality Turning Stress into Strength. And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Sarah. This is fun. Good conversation. Thank you.
- [31:04]
Dr. Sarah Boardman
Thank you so much.
- [31:06]
Mike Carruthers
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- [34:59]
Paul Friedman
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [35:01]
Mike Carruthers
When you go to other countries, I haven't really thought about this and I don't do that much international travel. But do you see countries that have, quote, American restaurants?
- [35:14]
Paul Friedman
Not really. I have a friend actually from Barcelona and his ambition is to open an American restaurant in Barcelona. But it really would be the first, apart from fast food that's identified with America. And if you ask most foreigners, they think American food is just fast food. Or maybe American food is just variety of foods. Yeah, that's the reason that I became interested in this subject, just to find out what is American food and even. Is there such a thing?
- [35:46]
Mike Carruthers
Is there such a thing?
- [35:48]
Paul Friedman
Well, I believe there is. I think there are three aspects to it. They're not like typical dishes in the sense that, as you said, if you go into an Italian restaurant, you know there's going to be pasta. But the three elements I would identify are regional foods, kind of like a vestige of what used to be a more vigorous sense that you got certain kinds of dishes in New England, certain kinds of dishes in the south, certain kinds of dishes in the Northwest. The second element is kind of what killed regionalism, and that is modern food. Modern meaning processed, industrial, standardized. And then the third element is variety. And by variety it means, you know, like the Tropicana orange juice comes in eight different kinds, or, you know, the yogurt comes in 30 different kinds, or the ice cream is in 28 flavors. And another aspect of variety is that Americans have for much longer than the rest of the world liked so called ethnic restaurants, liked the food of foreigners and of immigrants.
- [36:59]
Mike Carruthers
There are foods that I can think of that to me signify American food. You know, meatloaf, chocolate pudding. I Mean, it just. There's something very American about it, that there is something that is American food.
- [37:16]
Paul Friedman
I think that there are some foods people would say are. I mean, what about apple pie or what about pot roast? But in fact, you know, if you ask people, when was the last time you actually made pot roast or when was the last time you actually saw it on a menu and ordered it, I think you'd find that it was decades. And even apple pie is not. You know, there are diners that don't have apple pie. So a lot of these things are kind of homogenized, and they're not necessarily identified with a region. They're things like pizza that have become Americanized. Doughnuts, you know, pretty standard items, but not necessarily American in the sense of being rooted in a particular place.
- [38:02]
Mike Carruthers
But are there foods that are rooted in America just because the ingredients are very American? I mean, there is a phrase about American as apple pie. Did apple pie start here?
- [38:14]
Paul Friedman
No, that's the thing. I mean, apple pie is a version of an English apple tart. There are some things that Americans like that few other people do, like peanut butter or maple syrup. I have a friend in France who. And here you'd have to include Canadians. She had a lot of Canadian professional friends. And I remember her telling me, they always bring that horrible maple syrup of yours. This is not a popular item in the rest of the world, but American ingredients. A lot of American cuisine was based on corn, which grew better in much of New England than did wheat. So, you know, that's an ingredient or liquor made out of apples. Applejack was an old kind of standby. And some of these things continue to have some influence. Hot sauce, you know, which originates from the Southwest. That's something that Americans like a lot. Even if the basic food is bland, we like a lot of different kinds of flavorings. To top it off with do Americans.
- [39:31]
Mike Carruthers
And I guess people in general, you typically eat as adults what you grew up eating, what you ate as a kid?
- [39:39]
Paul Friedman
Yes, yes. Particularly because we liked sugar and we liked it as kids. There's some tastes that we develop. Most kids don't like the combination of spicy and sweet, like barbecue sauce. I think you've got to become a teenager before that kicks in.
- [39:59]
Mike Carruthers
That's interesting. I never thought. Because I have kids that like barbecue sauce and liked it from a fairly young age.
- [40:07]
Paul Friedman
I think it could also be that your kids are a little more sophisticated. And in fact, I've got to say, kids have become more sophisticated. The kind of kid who would only eat at McDonald's for his or her first 18 years still exists. But I just had a dinner party yesterday and A friend has two kids, 10 and 13. And the 10 year old actually made a kind of bread that is typical of the colonial era. You know, just like. Cause he wanted something to do while the adults were cooking. That certainly wouldn't have happened when I was growing up.
- [40:47]
Mike Carruthers
When you look back at what Americans were eating in the 50s or the 60s, it seems very meat and potatoes, that there wasn't a lot of adventurous eating going on.
- [41:00]
Paul Friedman
Things changed in the 1970s, I would say, or if I had to pick a turning point, the rediscovery of actual flavor in primary foods like seasonal, local. What we now all kind of take for granted begins in California. Not only with Alice Waters and her Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse, but that would be the most famous example. And at the same time, in the 1970s, although certain kinds of immigrant food like Chinese and Italian had been popular for a long time, you see an explosion of other kinds of options. Thai food really becomes a big item in the seventies. Indian food, Mexican food becomes available in places like New York that had never had it. So in 1979, I started teaching at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. And at that time the food was not only meat and potatoes, but pretty bland. And it became spicier and more varied. The spicier I remember being impressed by. And not, you know, not just Thai food or Mexican food, but items like blackened red fish or buffalo chicken wings. You know, these things have a lot of spice. And so things did change. And I would pick the 1970s as the beginning of the shift.
- [42:27]
Mike Carruthers
And they changed in the 1970s because why, what happened? What caused the change?
- [42:35]
Paul Friedman
Some of it is just the arrival of lots of immigrants. So in 1965, Congress voted to repeal the racist and restrictive laws about immigration that had cut immigration from all but northern Europe since the 1920s. And then by the 1970s, you really started to get the arrival of large numbers of people, especially from Asia. But more than just the availability of more kinds of cuisines, I think it has to do with the kind of individualism and rejection of mass culture. So instead of everybody, you know, watching the Ed Sullivan show at. On Sunday evening and the security of knowing that if you were having Yankee pot roast and. And potatoes, your neighbors were having Yankee pot roast and potatoes, probably kind of limited dossier of dishes, people started to want to shape themselves, to make themselves a kind of different story from that of other people and that individualism. Remember the 1970s at the time was dubbed the me decade. And so the me part means nonconformity or finding your own path.
- [43:51]
Mike Carruthers
I remember it and you can look back and see because people post ads, old print ads on Facebook and stuff of food from the 50s and the 60s, you know, jello molds and fondue. And my recollection is a lot of that stuff, TV dinners was all horrible. It was just horrible.
- [44:15]
Paul Friedman
Well, you know, people actually cooked in those days. You may not like what they cooked, but compare it to now, where more money is spent on meals taken outside of the home than in the home. Another thing is that certain kinds of products, particularly meat, is now inferior to what was available in the 1950s, fish as well, partly because of overfishing, partly because of breeding meat to have low fat, hence not very much flavor or kind of more industrialized product. So the chicken of the 1950s was better than most, except the kind of high end chickens available now. But having said all that, yeah, the food was pretty, was pretty dreadful. And you have the sense that people forgot what basic things were supposed to taste like. They certainly forgot what fruit was supposed to taste like, what produce generally. And special effects were supposed to make up for that. Special effects, like putting it in jello or adding ketchup or some kind of weird new processed thing like whipped cheese or cheese from a dispenser, or flavor straws with chocolate flavor built into the straw. Even though these things are horrible, I don't know, people sort of fell for them.
- [45:44]
Mike Carruthers
Is there anything like. When you think of Italian food, you think of pasta and it's all over the world, and you think of Japanese food, you think, I don't know, rice. But is there anything that Americans have exported to the world that is truly American? I'm thinking something like breakfast cereal or something.
- [46:08]
Paul Friedman
I think the world has rejected a lot of our exports, like breakfast cereal. So in Britain, they eat American breakfast cereal, but a few other countries have embraced this. Sometimes countries embrace things just, you know, like Tang. This artificial orange beverage made from a powder was a big item in the 60s because the astronauts drank Tang and it was promoted on that basis. Apparently it's very big in Taiwan still, but certainly it's not big in the United States. I think the US is more a kind of transit point. So we didn't invent pizza, but we exported it to the world. Not Italy, we didn't invent sushi. But the fact, you know, I do a lot of work as a medieval historian, which is my day job in Barcelona. So I remember when sushi arrived in Barcelona and it didn't arrive directly from Japan. It arrived around the same time that tacos did. So these things are like, it gets the American seal of approval as a hip youth culture kind of fast food.
- [47:22]
Mike Carruthers
It's interesting that you say that a lot of things like breakfast cereal have not caught on in the rest of the world. And yet our exports of fast food have. There's McDonald's everywhere. There's Kentucky Fried Chicken everywhere. That worked.
- [47:36]
Paul Friedman
That's right. Maybe it's perceived as tastier. Some of these. There's more local adaptations. So, you know, you can get beer with a McDonald's hamburger in much of Europe. It's the same thing with music, I'd say, or probably with movies as well. There's certain kinds that really export well. And in fact, many movies are made that are not so popular in the US but become wildly popular in Europe. And then there are some things you can't explain. Sure, soccer is more popular than it used to be, but it still is the leading game of the world by far, except in the United States.
- [48:16]
Mike Carruthers
You mentioned a few minutes ago pot roast. And I remember my mother used to make pot roast. We used to have it all the time and so did everybody I knew. But if you wanted pot roast today, I don't know anybody that has. I don't know anybody that eats it.
- [48:35]
Paul Friedman
Or where you'd find it if you decided you had a lust for it. What restaurant, even a so called. It'd have to be a very serious comfort food restaurant to feature it. Yeah, I think some of it is that it is. It's not that it's a trouble to make, but you've got to know something about cooking. You've got to be willing to use the oven every Thanksgiving. There's some kind of feature I know on NPR about, you know, we're here for you if you're having trouble putting together your Thanksgiving meal. And the reason people are having trouble putting it together is first of all, they don't cook all that much. And they particularly don't cook old fashioned dishes that require lots of time in the oven. So a lot of these things that require roasting or baking are just things that people gave up. If they cook at home, they're grilling, they're frying, they're pressure cooking or slow cooking. But if you ask people, when was the last time you actually put something in the oven at 350 degrees, there'd be a lot of people who hadn't done it in months.
- [49:47]
Mike Carruthers
I find that sad.
- [49:49]
Paul Friedman
I do too, definitely.
- [49:52]
Mike Carruthers
I have such fond memories of my mother and my grandmother cooking in the kitchen. And I cook and, you know, there have been lots of people who have tried to push that and reinforce that, you know, the Galloping Gourmet and then and more lately, you know, Chris Kimball, as Cooks Illustrated and Milk street has really tried to push the idea that cooking isn't as hard as you think. You can do it quickly and it can really taste good, but it doesn't seem to really catch on.
- [50:23]
Paul Friedman
It would seem logical that they would have learned that if you cook at home, you have more control over what you're eating. Both quantity, since restaurant portion size is huge, amount of salt, amount of fat. Restaurants, as Anthony Bourdain pointed out in Kitchen Confidential, the reason you like restaurant food is because we don't show any restraint about salt or butter or other fats. So if people are so concerned with their health, you would think they would cook at home more. But that's just logical and not the way, you know, psychology is not all.
- [51:02]
Mike Carruthers
And I've heard things like, you know, more people watch cooking shows than actually cook. And that a lot of cookbooks and cooking instruction has had to get so simplified because, like, it used to say, you know, butter the bottom of the pan and people were turning the pan over and buttering the bottom of the pan and putting it on the fire and it would light on fire. And all of that is so strange to me.
- [51:28]
Paul Friedman
To me, too. I think some of it is the perception that we don't have time and some of it is the way we live so that it is not hard to cook. What's a little hard is to have the right food without shopping every day. If you lived in Paris and, you know, you on your way home from the metro are all sorts of food vendors and you can just decide what's in the market or what the butcher recommends and then make it. That's different from the way most of us don't live very close to where we buy food. And so we shop once a week. And if you do that, then you're going to have to freeze some stuff. You're going to have to plan. You're going to have to use some processed ingredients so that some of this is just. Just a question of shopping more than of actual cooking. But it's also something where people perceive cooking as more difficult. And then who are you cooking for? I think we all lament the fact that families don't eat together as much as they used to. You know, the teenagers get their own meal, and then the parents kind of graze on other stuff. And there's maybe a big deal is made of having dinner together on Sunday night or one time a week. So that also discourages things like pot roast, for sure.
- [52:58]
Mike Carruthers
I wonder why cooking shows on TV are so popular and yet cooking is not so popular or not as popular as it used to be, because you would think that if you're watching this food be prepared on television and it looks so good and that people taste it and say, oh, it's wonderful that that would inspire people to want to say, I'm going to make that.
- [53:22]
Paul Friedman
Or it's just entertainment. You know, the key moment of cooking show's success was not so much the foundation of the Food Network and making it 24 7, but getting away from the instruction model, or let's say segmenting the instruction model off into videos and making the actual programming entertainment. So the thing about that is that then it was watched by men and by kids who were not necessarily interested in how to, but simply kind of, you know, they're watching it like they might be watching wrestling or sports.
- [54:02]
Mike Carruthers
Do we know? And since you're an historian, was American cuisine, has it stayed more or less the same over the time America's been here, or did people in the 1800s eat vastly different food than we eat today?
- [54:19]
Paul Friedman
I'd say vastly different. And that surprised me partly because there was more game available, there were more species of fish available. People liked organ meat. The fancy restaurants of the 19th century feature things like pig's feet with sauce poulet, or calf's head with brain sauce. And this isn't poor people's food. These are restaurants like Delmonico's, the fanciest restaurant in New York and probably in the United States. So some of it is that tastes have changed, some of it is that species have declined. So there are all sorts of different kinds of wild ducks available on 19th century menus. There are, you know, pigeons, passenger pigeons, there's buffalo meat. All these either became extinct or endangered. The most popular dishes of the 19th century in the United States are oysters, which, you know, we certainly still have, although they've become very expensive. Terrapin, which is a small turtle now semi endangered. And obviously people are not. This doesn't whet the appetite of the average person. So, yeah, the food is radically different.
- [55:46]
Mike Carruthers
Well, this has been fun to take a look at what American food is, how people around the world perceive it, and how it's evolved over time. Paul Friedman's been my guest. He's a professor at Yale University. He's author of a couple of books. His most recent one is called American Cuisine, and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Paul.
- [56:09]
Paul Friedman
Okay, thanks so much for having me.
- [56:14]
Mike Carruthers
Happiness doesn't heal, but it may protect you from getting sick in the first place. This is according to a report by some Harvard researchers who looked at 30 studies on happiness. What they discovered is that happiness does not lengthen the life of people who are seriously ill already, but it does seem to protect healthy people from becoming ill in the first place. Why? Well, it appears that unhappiness causes chronic stress, which can suppress the immune system, and so people get sick. Happy people are also more likely to adopt a healthy lifestyle. So cheer up. Happiness appears to be strong preventative medicine, and that is something you should know. This podcast continues to grow due in large part to people like you telling people you know and getting them to listen. I'd appreciate it if you would do that. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. There is a fascinating and unique podcast I'd like you to check out as I have. It's called Only One in the Room. A few years back, Laura Cathcart Robbins attended a writer's retreat where out of 600 attendees, she was the only black one. So later she wrote about her experience and the article went viral because people understand what it feels like to be the only one in the room. Only One in the Room is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. I bet you've had that feeling. Listen and you'll hear guests like Hillary Phelps, sister of Olympian Michael Phelps, sharing her story of her secret addiction. Former Fox News reporter Christine O'Donnell, who was fired after one of her social media posts was taken out of context. Only One in the Room was named a top podcast by Reader's Digest, the Manual, and Bustle magazines. Every week, Laura and her co host, Scott Slaughter invites you to join them for an hour and lose yourself in someone's only one story. Check out Only One in the Room wherever you get your podcasts. Buffet Brawlers, Glory holes gone wrong. Cannibalistic castration cabins, Public poopers. These are just a few of the crazy topics you'll hear covered on Excuse Me, that's Illegal, the pettiest podcast around. Whether you need a break from all that murdery true crime stuff or just enjoy hearing hilarious stories told in a unique way, I got what you need. I'm Leroy Luna, your fearless host chauffeur. So come hop in my minivan and let's go for a ride. I promise you probably won't be disappointed. Excuse me, that's illegal. Is available on Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, basically everywhere you consume podcasts, with new episodes dropping on the 10th, 20th and 30th of the month, baby.