Ryan Reynolds (1:33)

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Joanna Fortune (2:58)

Something you should Know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers hi, welcome to Something you should Know. As you go about your day, you probably see at least one or two FedEx trucks drive by with their iconic logo on the side. Did you know that the FedEx logo is legendary among designers? It has won over 40 design awards and is considered one of the best logos of all time. Nearly every design school professor and graphic designer with a blog has at some point focused on the FedEx logo. Why? Well, it's because of how the logo uses negative space. If you look in the lower space between the E and the X, you will see an arrow, a white arrow. Usually people don't notice the arrow until it's pointed out to them, but once you see it, it's almost impossible not to see it again every time you look at that logo, and that is something you should know. When I mention the word play, you probably think of children. Children are really good at playing, but play seems to become less important, less practical, and less necessary as we get older. But maybe that's the wrong way to look at it. Playing as an adult may be absolutely necessary for a lot of important reasons. Even just incorporating small moments of play can make a difference in your life in several different ways. And here to explain how and why is psychotherapist Joanna Fortune, who is author of a book called why we how to Find Joy and Meaning in Everyday Life. Hi Joanna, thanks for being here.

Michael Carruthers (5:00)

Great to be here, Michael. Thanks for having me.

Joanna Fortune (5:03)

So when you look at child development, play is a big part of that. You hear all the experts talk about the importance of play. Kids need to learn how to play with each other, that play is critical in their development. And yet as we get older, that whole idea of play being important somehow falls away. That play, well, that's for kids.

Michael Carruthers (5:29)

I think we do, Michael, understand that play has a really important role in the lives of children. And I also think as adults we see our role within the play narrative as being to support children in playing, to play with them, and to let them lead the way. All of which is true, but equally true is that whether you be a pet parent or not, right across the trajectory of our lives, we continue to need play. And it's about really challenging that concept of play being a box of toys in the corner of a room and really reaching into that idea that play is a state of mind. And a playful mind is one that is flexible and adaptable and is therefore amenable to change.

Joanna Fortune (6:18)

And so as an adult, what does it mean to play? If it isn't a box of toys, what is it?

Michael Carruthers (6:25)

Well, that's such a great question because I'm smiling as I'm answering it. Because for me, I still would play in what would be deemed quite a whimsical play pattern. I like the messy play, the painting, the finger painting, the play. D'oh. Others amongst us are playing, but we're not calling it play. And we're not crediting ourselves with being as playful as perhaps we are. Some of us will have tendencies that are more intellectual base play. You know, it could be those of us who wouldn't let a day go by without doing the crossword or wordle or Sudoku or jigsaws. And we really love those complicated jigsaw puzzles or the 3D versions, or we might play with Lego, but it's got to be one of those big complicated things where we're building the Eiffel Tower or something like that play that really stimulates the mind, that is still play. And there's others amongst us who might be listening, going, no, neither of those are me. But you might be somebody who has very other oriented play. You enjoy group activities, team sports, being part of a league, being part of a training session on a regular basis, and that's your type of play.

Joanna Fortune (7:35)

How would you say people, grownups, adults do with this? Are most of us pretty playful in that you're really trying to rally a small percentage of people or are most of us loud, lacking in play or what?

Michael Carruthers (7:50)

Well, it's so interesting because I put out a question, you know, not that this is, you know, solid research, but I put out a question on social media asking people, you know, do you consider yourself playful? And most people said yes. And when I asked, you know, are you happy with how much access that you have to play right now in your life? The answer was overwhelmingly no. And when I further queried what was the greatest block, it was a combination of time and opportunity, but also self confidence, consciousness. And I'm asking that question, Michael, to people who are already following me on social media. That's what I mean. It's not proper research. There is a bias there. They're Already following me for this type of content. And while I'm talking with people who see themselves as playful, who enjoy playfulness, there's still a cohort of people who feel they are not getting enough access to play. So that was really striking for me. So I would think, I really do think this, by the way, that with very rare exception, we all have capacity to be playful. I think it's innate in us. I think for some of us, our play muscles may be a little rusty, a little stiff, a little underdeveloped, and there's always a story behind that. But I think we all have capacity to live more playful lives. What that will look and sound and feel like for each of us is going to be different. But I think that we should all stretch ourselves a little and say, how much more playful could we be simply because of the benefits? You know, we know that this kind of creative, curious mind, and, you know, it's worth holding that in mind, that a curious mind is a playful mind. So if you're somebody who likes to work out solutions to problems, who will find yourself looking at a situation and thinking, I wonder, I wonder if I did this, And I wonder, could we try it that way? You're already entering into that playful state of mind.

Joanna Fortune (9:42)

So is the word play part of the problem? When you hear the word play, you think of maybe something that's fairly frivolous, unnecessary, childlike, and, you know, not something grownups do. But you also hear, you know, if you were to ask people, do you think play is important as an adult, I'm sure they would say yes.

Michael Carruthers (10:04)

So I think, yes, most people are open to this, but there is a healthy dose of reluctance. Let me put it that way, in terms of when I say to people, oh, you know, we should all be more playful intellectually, I get an overwhelming yes, definitely. But then when I say, so when's the last time you sat at your desk at work and blew some bubbles and popped them with your finger? People do look at me with a little bit of, are you serious? And then, yes, yes, I'm afraid I am. I'm serious. But you know, Michael, if you're. If you're starting something new, none of us should start at the point of greatest resistance, really. So if you heard me say, blow bubbles, and you're like, no, I'm out. Fear not. That is one form of play, and there are many others. Maybe you're going to build up to the bubble blowing, but you're not starting there if that's where you feel greatest resistance.

Joanna Fortune (10:52)

And so what would that ladder look like that you're building up to blowing bubbles at your desk, like doing things like what, for example?

Michael Carruthers (11:01)

So for example, in my own desk drawer I would keep a little play pack so that I have this daily play break. So in my play pack I would have something as simple. And this is something that you could start with. Simply take a piece of paper and take a pencil into your hand. Start. You know you're going to naturally pick it up in whatever your dominant hand is, but I'm now going to ask you to swap it over to your non dominant hand. I place the pencil on a piece of paper and I close my eyes and as I count slowly backwards from 15 to 1, I just move that pencil all around the page, making a scribble, a mark. When I get to one, I open my eyes, swap the pencil back to my dominant hand, turn the page 180 degrees, so the other way around, in other words. And then I add features onto it just for a couple of minutes. And I, out of that chaos, I create order. I create something recognizable. That's a play break. Nobody's going to see you do that. Nobody's going to be like, what are you doing doodling on that page? It's not unusual in a workspace to pick up a paper and pencil. So this is something that you can do in a much less self conscious way. But within that play pack in my desk, while I would have something like that, I also have a small little tub of putty. Because sometimes when I need to concentrate on something, it helps me to roll, to stretch, to pull, to make shapes out of play dough or putty. And that's something that's very sensory. It helps to pull me out of my head and anchor me down into the now moments. The only reason I mentioned bubbles is because for me, I find it a really good and playful way to regulate my breath if I'm feeling under pressure, if I can feel myself getting a little bit stressed. Because in blowing bubbles, you have to take a deep breath in and you exhale through your mouth. But in doing it through bubbles, you're focuses on playfulness, not just take a breath and calm down. Because in the history of being stressed out, anybody telling you to take a breath and calm down really doesn't calm you down.

Joanna Fortune (12:59)

Playfulness always seems to be easier when there are children involved. It kind of gives you an excuse to do it because, well, the kids want to play. So I guess I'll play with the kids and it makes it more, I guess, it makes it more acceptable, at least in people's minds. They're not quite as self conscious about what they're doing. Because they're playing with children.

Michael Carruthers (13:21)

Oh, absolutely. I mean children are definitely handy to have around when it comes to saying, I'm going to get more playful. But you know, it's a different type of play when we're playing with children. Because there are two ways as parents of playing with children. You know, we either follow their lead. It's very child directed and in a way that we can avoid saying, how was your day? What did you do? Where did you go? Who did you speak to? What happened? And the children look at us and they're like, I am done with the Q and A part of my day. I'm giving you nothing. So if you want to know how their day was, join them in their world and language of play on the floor. It's all happening there. That's how they process, make meaning. Or maybe within our playing with children we have a little bit of an agenda. We want to do, for example, some impulse control. So we're going to play games like mother, may I? Simon says red light, green light games. That's you know, start, stop, start, stop. Take your cue from the adult in charge that there is a little bit of an agenda in there and that is child focused, adult led play. So that when we're playing with children it tends to be oriented around the children. Playfulness in our adult lives is about giving back to ourselves. It's really about looking at what sparks joy for me and when is the last time I got to do that and what is getting in the way. Could I maybe make some space to do something like that and what would be a small change that could make a big difference in this?

Joanna Fortune (14:45)

Regardless, we're talking about the benefits of play in your grown up adult life. And my guest is Joanna Fortune. She is a psychotherapist and author of the book why we how to find Joy and meaning in Everyday Life. Want to shop Walmart Black Friday deals first Walmart plus members get early access to our hottest deals. Join now and get 50% off a one year annual membership shop Black Friday deals first first with Walmart plus see terms@walmartplus.com future you faces some big expectations. Work out more, go to bed earlier and most importantly make smart money decisions. Thankfully today you has bank of America one place with tools and guidance to help balance tasks from budgeting to saving. So you can just be you with big plans. Do more with the bank that asks what would you like the power to do? Explore our tips and more@bankofamerica.com futureyou so Joanna, I get the idea that by doing some of the things that you're talking about, you're developing skills like critical thinking skills and all that. But what about just the psychological benefits, the mood benefits of being more playful? Has that been studied?

Michael Carruthers (16:05)

Well, I mean, playfulness in the life of adults in terms of its psychosocial impact is understudied, if anything. But the studies that are there and the research that is available does point to a myriad of pro social benefits and psychological benefits. Also the workplace. You know, Dr. Stuart Brown has done significant research about playfulness in the workplace. And you know what is coming up there is that when we do encourage playfulness in our workplace, we see more productive team members, we see productivity rates increase, we see happier employees. And a happier employee means a more productive, healthy work environment. So far from being seen that you are, you know, skiving off or not taking your work seriously, building time for play, breaks even in the workplace is proven to improve your productivity and your flexibility and adaptability, all of which are essential skills in the workforce. So while it's under researched, the research that's there is really encouraging that this is not just something nice for us to do, it is actually essential for us to do it.

Joanna Fortune (17:18)

I'm wondering if people generally are given permission, the opportunity to play, are they more likely to gravitate towards things they used to play as opposed to looking for something new to play?

Michael Carruthers (17:34)

Yes, yes and no. I mean, when I ask that question of people, as I do within my work all of the time, it's, you know, oh, I don't play anymore. I used to, but I don't anymore. And when we go back and think about what is it you used to do and why was that fun for you and when is the last time many people will report back that actually, you know, I did look that up or I did try to do that again, it may not feel exactly the same as an adult as it may have done for you as a child. And also maybe our play preferences have shifted over the course of growing up. And while I used to like to play in this whimsical way, now that makes me feel a little too self conscious and silly. I'm not there anymore. Actually. Now I like to play in a more structured and ordered way. So I've joined a team or I've joined an art class or I'm in a group with like minded others. And that's where I'm getting a similar level of pleasure. So our play patterns change as we change. And that is the job, isn't it? The job over the course of our life is to grow and develop. And that's not just the journey of childhood, that's the trajectory of life.

Joanna Fortune (18:42)

When people don't play, when they say whatever they say that they don't have time or whatever it is, what's really going on there? Is it really that they believe that they don't have time, or they believe it's not something adults should do, or is there something else going on?

Michael Carruthers (19:03)

I mean, I think whatever we think it is, there's usually something else to that. Not that what we're telling ourselves is not true, but there might be a little sub context to that as well. Because modern life is frenetically paced and it's extremely busy and demanding. But if we're really honest with ourselves, could we repurpose some of the time that we are maybe devoting to social media or scrolling or screen time or TV watching? Could we maybe repurpose some of that time? So actually we do have the time, but we need to prioritize how we're using our time. Because it's when we forget to play for a prolonged, extended period of time that we see the impact. And that impact initially might be the job that I once loved has now become something I endure rather than enjoy. And I've become more rigid. And this is the way we do it. And I will never change the way I do it. And usually when we get to that point in any aspect of our lives, that we feel as stuckness, you know, I just feel stuck. Something's amiss. That's usually an indicator that we have forgotten to play. And that's when we need to bring the playfulness back in.

Joanna Fortune (20:16)

Is it safe to say that play, since everyone's play is different, what they want to do, that play is pretty much anything that you enjoy doing that you're not doing. In other words, if you don't read for pleasure and you get a book and read for pleasure, is that play or is that not play?

Michael Carruthers (20:37)

I mean, I think it could be play, depending on what you do with it. I mean, I think at one point that can be. For me, that's a good example. For me, I would deem reading a very relaxing activity. It's something I do when actually I'm seeking to escape. I want to immerse myself, particularly if I'm reading fiction, immerse myself into another world. But to maximize the play Benefit from something like reading. I would strongly advocate that, that when you have finished the book that you consider if you were the author of the book, how would you change the ending? What would you put in? What would you take out? What new character would you create? What would their name be? What features and traits would they have? Who would you connect them to in the story and at what point of the story and how would that change the outcome? Now write that new ending. I think when you can get into it at that level now it's playfulness because now you're engaged in creative, imaginative, projective narrative play. And books can be a great doorway into that.

Joanna Fortune (21:38)

Do you differentiate between playing yourself versus playing with others? In other words, I might really enjoy going for a bike ride for myself, just by myself, because I used to ride my bike everywhere when I was a kid and I love riding my bike. But it isn't necessarily something I need to do with somebody else. I get a lot of joy out of just doing that.

Michael Carruthers (22:02)

I would, I would probably say try to practice a blend of both. I definitely enjoy solo play, especially when I'm in a headspace where I know I just need to do something to reset my busy brain. Then I want to do something on my own. And that could be for me, anything from jumping in a puddle outside to doing something like the drawing technique or building with some Lego blocks on my own. Just doing something that's very much me doing it. And story based play actually lends, lends itself very well to that. But I also think that we, in order to invest in our relationships, I think that we do need to have some openness and connection to other directed play or other oriented play, which would mean that you can engage with a play partner. And that could be, you know, if you're in a relationship, an intimate partner. It could also be an adult sibling, an adult friend. You know, it doesn't have to be any one particular person. You may have a play partner in different parts of your life, but that you can do that, serve and return and you can play with somebody. I think that's about strengthening connection. And play ultimately is a relational experience.

Joanna Fortune (23:18)

What do you think is a good goal here to play how much per day or how many times or like, when do the benefits kick in to this? Or is everybody different?

Michael Carruthers (23:31)

I think everybody is different. But at the same time, I don't want to just say that. I do want to emphasize that I believe when you make play a daily practice over a period of time, even consistently every day for 10 to 14 days, you will begin to see positive impact. That doesn't mean, oh, I got the positive impact and now I stop. But that's a sign that you keep going. This is working for me. I'm going to keep doing this. But now that I'm getting comfortable, you want to have fun, fun, but you don't want it to be so predictable. It becomes a bit boring and dull for you. I think in terms of how much time every day that's going to be different in each of our lives. Some of us will benefit from having multiple mini play breaks, one to five minutes scattered throughout our day. Some of us will benefit from ring fencing, a block of time and sitting down and really absorbing ourselves in the play activity. And some of us will only know which way we fall by trying out both. But I would say a minimum of 15 minutes a day is enough to start creating a new habit, a new default experience that, oh, you know, I'm just going to quite naturally play. Because once you start doing this, you will see opportunities for play all around you. You may even be in one of those coffee shops that like to write your name on the mug on the cup and you can actually in that moment say, well, today I'm going to be and give a new name. And what way would that person behave or speak or move? And for the duration of time that it simply takes you to pick up the cup of coffee you order every morning, you've had a play experience. So you will find openings and opportunities for playfulness without having to consciously plan them once this has become part of your daily routine.

Joanna Fortune (25:17)

Well, you said something at the very beginning of our conversation that one of the reasons people don't put play in their life or are reluctant to is that self consciousness of looking childlike or looking stupid. And yet, as you've described, there are so many benefits to adding play in your life. It's certainly worth considering and putting it into practice. I've been talking to Joanna Fortune, psychotherapist and author of the book why we how to Find Joy and Meaning in Everyday Life. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Great. Joanna, good having you here.

Michael Carruthers (25:55)

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Russell Poldrack (26:28)

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Michael Carruthers (26:51)

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month new customers on first three month plan only. Taxes and fees. Extra Speed slower above 40 gigabytes. CD tails.

Joanna Fortune (27:02)

Something that's kind of interesting when you think about it is the fact that we do so many things without thinking about it. Kind of like on autopilot, how you walk and talk, brush your teeth, button your shirt. You don't have to think about it, you don't have to concentrate on it as you do it. You just do it. It's a habit. Your brain is pretty good at forming these habits and making them stick, both good habits and bad habits. And it gets even more interesting when you dig beneath the surface here. Russell Poldrack is an expert on the top. Russell is a professor of psychology at Stanford University and director of the Stanford center for Reproducible Neuroscience. He's also author of a book called Hard to why Our Brains Make Habits Stick. Hey, Russell. Welcome. Glad to have you on. Something you should know.

Russell Poldrack (27:55)

Hi, thanks for having me.

Joanna Fortune (27:57)

So what's a habit? How do you define it in your world?

Russell Poldrack (28:00)

I guess I think of a habit as something that we do that's kind of triggered by the world without us thinking about it. It, you know, so we, there's lots of things that we do every day in our behavior that we don't really think about at all, right? Take driving, right? You know, you get into your car and you have to press pedals and move levers and all these various things. And when you're first learning to drive a car, you have to think about all of those different things, right? You know, which pedal is which, which is the brake, which is the gas. But if you've been driving for 20 years, you never think about which pedal is doing which thing, right? You just get in the car and drive and you're thinking about where do I need to go and what's the, what's the traffic going to be like and all sort of things. So, you know, habits are the things that, that our brains do to basically kind of offload us needing to think about all these things that kind of don't change in the world. And. And usually habits are a good thing. We. We notice them when they're a bad thing. You know, when we have bad habits that we want to get rid of and we can't. But I think, you know, one really important thing that. That neuroscientists know about habits is just how fundamentally important they are. And that's why our brains are kind of built to make them.

Joanna Fortune (29:13)

So I have always thought of a habit as not so much like what pedals to push when you're driving, because you don't feel compelled to do that. I don't have to go do that, but smoker has to smoke. You know what I mean? That a habit is something that you feel compelled to do, not just something you do automatically.

Russell Poldrack (29:33)

I think that's. That's certainly true. Yeah. That, you know, the habits that we talk the most about are the ones that have this kind of like this emotional. Or what we. What neuroscientists call incentive salience. Right. That there's something in the world that we really want to get, and it's almost like a craving or like a. Like a powerful drive to. To do the thing. And. And you're right that most of the habits that we have in the world, we don't. You know, when I'm going to, you know, lock the door as I leave the house, I don't feel a craving to do that. But what we know is that, you know, it's actually the same machinery in our brains that ca. That creates the habit of locking your door when you leave and the habit of, you know, of needing to go have another cigarette. The main difference is that, you know, if you think about what are the things in the world that cause these kinds of habits we're talking about, the ones where we kind of feel compelled to do something, they're mostly driven by these features of the modern world that weren't there when we were evolving millions of years ago. The world has these really powerful stimuli that impinge on our brains, and the chemicals that we ingest are the big ones. So think about why is it that you have to have the cigarette? Well, it's because every time you have the cigarette, the nicotine goes into your bloodstream and it goes and affects some neurons in your brain, and those ultimately cause changes that. That strengthen that habit. It's happening through the same machinery that generates all the other habits. It just. It's such a much more powerful driver of brain activity. Than anything we ever kind of ran. You know, if you think about what, what were the things people were eating, you know, back when we were, you know, sort of hunter gatherers, they weren't, they weren't as tasty as, you know, potato chips or candy bars. Right. They were like, you know, you, you might find a little berry or maybe you go like, you know, kill an animal and eat some bone marrow or something like that. We now have these stimuli that affect our brain in a, just a fundamentally different way than the things that we evolved with. And that's often what kind of drives these sorts of habits.

Joanna Fortune (31:43)

So the habits that people talk about when they say, you know, I want to do, I want to exercise, I want to make it a habit. And then we hear things like, well, in order to, for a habit to take effect, that you have to do it a certain number of times. Talk about that kind of pop culture view of habits. And is it accurate or not?

Russell Poldrack (32:05)

I think in general it's true that if you take exercising, the way to get yourself to exercise regularly in the long term is to make it part of a routine. And that's a routine is kind of like a habit where you don't, one way to think about is you don't have to like think about whether you're going to the gym or you don't want to have to think about whether to go to the gym today. You want to just have that be what you do. You know, every Tuesday and Thursday I go to the gym and I don't want to have to get up every morning and decide whether I'm going. I just know that that's what I do on Tuesday and Thursday. And if you have that sort of routine in place, then it, it becomes kind of self sustaining, right? Whereas if you kind of pick and choose every morning, well, I go to the gym today, and if I am, will I go at 9am or 3pm that becomes a much harder thing to ingrain in part because you're just, you know, you're, it's open to you having to think about it. And then it's easier for you to decide at each point in time kind of not to do it. And the only way something becomes a routine is when you do it over and over again. Now there are these, there are these kind of pop culture ideas about, you know, it takes 28 days to, to create a habit or, you know, whatever the number might be that the person will give you. And in general, you know, what we know from the little bit of research that's been done on this is that it really varies across people, and it varies across habits. But, you know, for the same habit, one person might need a month to make it kind of, you know, a part of their routine, and one person might need a lot longer. And I don't. I don't think we understand, you know, where those differences between people come from, but we know that they exist.

Joanna Fortune (33:39)

So in a quick shorthand way, what's the difference between a habit, a routine, and an addiction?

Russell Poldrack (33:47)

Ah, yes. A routine is often going to be kind of a chain of different things. Like, you know, going to the gym involves putting on your gym clothes and then, you know, getting to the gym and then signing in at the gym and then going and getting on the treadmill. Right. So that's a. There's a whole bunch of things there. We usually think of habits as more sort of smaller, like, atomic pieces of behavior. So, like, each of the little things I have to do, you know, putting on my clothes or getting in the car or driving to the gym, each of those little things we might think of as a habit and a routine, you can sort of think of as like, a bunch of habits put together. In some sense, you know, addictions are. I think of addictions as kind of like the hijacking of the habit system by these, you know, unnaturally strong stimuli that the modern world gives us. And the. The over. The thing that differs about, you know, when we think about what is an addict versus a habit, the thing that really differs is this kind of, you know, as you mentioned earlier, this kind of emotional craving or this kind of, like, you know, incentive to. To need to do something. A few people really feel like they need to go for a run or need to go to the gym, but not in the same way that, you know, somebody who's addicted to. To a drug feels the need to get that drug and the one other kind of difference. You know, what we. One of the things that we've learned about addiction is that one of the reasons that addictions are so hard to break is because over time, instead of, you know, sort of taking the drug and getting a high out of it, the drug just gets the person from sort of a. An emotional low back to their normal state. So, you know, the brain in general is a. Is a kind of an adaptive machine, and it'll adapt to whatever the world is doing. And so, you know, that's one of the big changes is people, you know, people who become addicted when they're in withdrawal, they feel this very kind of Unpleasant, negative emotion. And the drug just sort of takes them back to their normal emotion.

Joanna Fortune (35:40)

So this idea of creating a habit that people say they're going to go to the gym or they're going to whatever it's going to be, is that a worthy goal? Do you create habits or is there a different road to get there or what?

Russell Poldrack (35:58)

You certainly can create habits. And the, I think the thing that's, you know, most important for creating a new habit is sort of consistent, regular experience or practice, if you will. So, you know, if you decide, for example, that, you know, you want to, let's say that you want to start flossing every night because, you know, your dentist told you that you need to floss. What you need to do is first have a way to trigger that behavior. You know, if it's a, once it becomes a habit, it. Then you'll just, you know, you'll walk into the bathroom and start doing it without really thinking about it. But when you're starting out, it's not going to just happen on its own. And so there's, you can imagine sort of building scaffolding to help make it happen, right? Put a post it note on the, on the mirror saying, hey, did you remember to floss? Or, you know, some other way to kind of, to remind you to do the thing. And then once you've done it often enough, then it can become a sort of a thing that you, that you just do without thinking about it.

Joanna Fortune (36:57)

So is it harder to break a bad habit or create a good one?

Russell Poldrack (37:01)

You know, I think it's hard to say in general. It's, you know, it's, it's generally hard to do both. Like, nicotine addiction is incredibly hard to break. Of people who try to stop smoking, you know, the data show that after a year, only about a third of them have succeeded in not smoking for a year. Year. And so that's, that's incredibly hard. Now, I don't know what the numbers are on people who decide they want to start exercising. They're probably not much better. But I think that, you know, the, the reason that, that bad habits are so hard to break in part has, depending on the bad habit, if you're talking about things like, like addictions, you know, has to do with the fact that we have, like, our bodies have these kind of physiological reactions that go along with the kind of, you know, the mental stuff that that happens in a habit. Whereas, you know, we're mostly not having cravings to, you know, floss our teeth or go to the gym. Or anything like that. And, and, and we also, we don't get a physiological rush out of those things. So in general, I, you know, I think that many, you know, there's some bad habits that aren't that hard to break. Like, you know, I, I used to bite my fingernails and I, I was able to stop doing that after my wife pointed out what I was probably ingesting when I was biting them. But it took, you know, it, it must have taken me at least a couple of months. Where, you know, part of breaking a habit is realizing when the habit is happening and what are, you know, what are the things that drive you to do it and then figuring out strategies to, to get around that. And that's, that's a lot easier for habits like, you know, fingernail biting than it is for, you know, for things like, you know, ingesting substances or food or things like that.

Joanna Fortune (38:35)

And so what do we do with this? So knowing what you know, I mean, what's the advice regarding people wanting to start a habit or break a habit? It would almost seem like if you want to break a habit, doing something in the negative is harder than, you know, you ought to figure out. Like what do you want to replace it with rather than just stop doing something.

Russell Poldrack (38:59)

I think that's definitely one of the important ingredients because one of the things we know is that once a habit gets triggered, it's really hard to kind of stop oneself. And so a much more effective way to prevent oneself of, from engaging in the habit is just avoiding the trigger. So like, if you're a, you know, you're a smoker, you know, a well known trigger of smoking is walking into a bar, right? You, you smell smoke, you, you know, you have a drink and that, that often will drive people to smoke. Avoiding the bar is a, is a pretty good way to do that. Now we, you know, not everybody can avoid the triggers of their, of their bad habits. And then you have to think about, you know, how can I not engage in the habit even when the triggers are there? One of the, one of the techniques that comes from psychology that seems to be useful, there's evidence of this working is it's called an implementation intention. And the idea is basically that you kind of role play in your mind how you're going to behave. So you'll say you don't want to smoke and you have a friend who you always smoke with, think through some scenarios of how you're going to actually behave when you see them and they bring out the cigarettes and you want to Tell them that you're not interested in smoking. And the more kind of detailed the plans, the better. On the, you know, on the flip side of kind of building new habits, I think giving yourself as much scaffolding as you can to help keep the behavior going in the early days until it becomes kind of more of a routine, that's probably one of the most effective ways to do it. But, you know, one of the. I think one of the other things to take away from a lot of this research is that, you know, both breaking and creating dating habits is really hard. And, you know, neuroscience tells us why in a lot of ways. And so we. We shouldn't be so hard on ourselves when we fail to either, you know, change our behavior to break a habit or to. To generate a new one and sort of, you know, have a little more empathy for ourselves and for other people who we see in our lives who are having trouble changing their behavior.

Joanna Fortune (41:04)

You sometimes hear people say things like, he has a habit of interrupting people, or she has a habit of being very negative. Are those habits?

Russell Poldrack (41:13)

Certainly, yeah. I mean, I think that they're, you know, just as we can have habits in terms of, like, you know, the things we eat or drink or, you know, put in our bodies, there are sort of, you know, social habits and emotional habits. One common thing in couples, right, is that, you know, people start to have. Have habitual responses. They start to have, you know, the. A particular negative response to, like, something that their partner does, right? And those can be. Those can become, like, really overwhelming to a relationship. Right? And similarly, once you've worked with colleagues for a number of years, you can come to predict how they're going to behave in certain situations. And those are very persistent behaviors. So they have many of the same hallmarks as habits. Now, whether those are much harder things to study. Part of the reason we know a lot about the habits of ingesting things is because we can study them in rats.

Joanna Fortune (42:05)

Well, it certainly seems from most people's experience that the more you do something, the easier it gets to keep doing it, because you keep doing it.

Russell Poldrack (42:17)

It goes back to this idea that in general, the brain is always trying to. To kind of automate as much as it can, right? And if you do something a lot, that will tend to get automated. So it might be, you know, either because of, you know, a particular personality quirk or just because of some experiences that a person has, they start doing something, and over time, that thing becomes more and more of a, you know, kind of a routine that they engage in. Or, you know, like anytime they're in this situation, they behave in that particular way. And often that that's good because we don't have to think about how we're behaving in any particular situation. But sometimes it can lead to these sorts of bad behaviors.

Joanna Fortune (42:54)

It seems pretty clear that in order to change a habit one way or the other, that there's gotta be some real motivation to do it. You can't just think, well, you know, that'd be a good idea. Yeah, I guess I'll give that a try and hope for much success. That somehow you've got to pull something out from inside and that motivation has to. To push you through that.

Russell Poldrack (43:18)

That's definitely true. You know, it's like you can't really read about how to play guitar, right, and be able to play guitar based on just that. You need it. It requires kind of, you know, personal experience and motivation and actually doing the thing. Because the, you know, the systems in the brain that develop habits are basically the same systems that allow us to kind of choose what we're doing from moment to moment. We call it the action selection system system. It's basically determining, am I, you know, am I going to go left or right at this particular fork in the road, Am I going to, you know, pick the candy bar or the piece of fruit at the grocery store? Am I going to say something nice or something mean to this particular person? That the systems in our brain that let us do that are kind of fundamentally tied in with how habits are built.

Joanna Fortune (44:03)

It seems, I think, for most of us, for me, anyway, that if you want to change a behavior, if you want to change a habit habit, the best insurance you can have is if you're accountable to somebody else. If other people know that you're trying to do this, you're more likely to succeed.

Russell Poldrack (44:21)

That's exactly right. And so, you know, one of the things that people in the behavior change literature talk about is something called a commitment device, which is basically a way of kind of announcing your. Your particular intention and having there be some kind of consequence if you fail to achieve it. So, for example, there's a Radio Lab episode a while ago that talked about this woman named Zelda Gamson, who had been a lifelong activist for racial equality, and she really wanted to stop smoking. And so basically, she at some point said to one of her friends, friends, if I ever smoke again, I'm going to give $5,000 to the KU Klux Klan. And so, you know, that. And assuming that she was going to be held to that bargain. You know, that's a very powerful motivator, right. For much more powerful than you could imagine it would have been if she had said that to herself. And there's some work showing that, you know, people have set up kind of apps to do these kind of like commitment devices. And. And the research shows that if you do it publicly, it's substantially more powerful than if you just kind of do it for yourself.

Joanna Fortune (45:36)

Is there anything on the horizon, any kind of new technology that would help with this whole issue of getting rid of bad habits or incorporating good habits?

Russell Poldrack (45:48)

I think that in the future we may understand more about exactly how to more kind of almost surgically get rid of habits. There's some really interesting stuff, some findings with people, a small number of people who've had strokes in a particular part of the brain who basically wake up after their stroke and are no longer interested in smoking. They were smokers before their stroke. The stroke causes a lesion in this particular part of the brain called the insula, and suddenly they no longer have the desire to smoke. And so the question is whether you can harness. Obviously, we don't want to go like, you know, damage people's brains just to stop them from smoking because that could have other impacts as well. But. But to the degree that that tells us something about how we might go in and sort of more precisely alter the function of the brain for people where that sort of thing would be worthwhile to help break a really kind of a life damaging habit. I think that in the next few decades, we're going to understand a lot more from neuroscience about how to potentially do that.

Joanna Fortune (46:45)

Well, habits, particularly bad habits, those are the things that I think people worry about because it seems oftentimes to be out of our control. And it's helpful to understand how this all works. I've been speaking with Russell Poldrack. He's a professor of psychology at Stanford University. The name of his book is Hard to why Our Brains Make Habits Stick. And as always, there is a link to that book in the show Notes. Appreciate you being here, Russell. Thank you.

Russell Poldrack (47:15)

Sure thing. All right, thanks so much, Bunch.

Joanna Fortune (47:20)

If you take pain relievers like ibuprofen more than twice a week, you could end up with hearing loss. Researchers say women under the age of 50 are at particular risk. Apparently the same elements in ibuprofen that block the pain may also reduce blood flow to the cochlea in the inner ear, and that can affect your hearing. Pain relievers containing acetaminophen also posed a hearing loss risk, but it was slightly less than ibuprofen. They also tested aspirin and found no risk of hearing loss there, and that is something you should know. Leaving a rating and review is one of the best ways to support this podcast. It lets other people know how much you like it and it has something to do with the algorithms or but it does help having ratings and reviews and we have a lot of them, but we could use yours as well. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. There is a fascinating and unique podcast I'd like you to check out as I have it's called Only One in the Room. A few years back, Laura Cathcart Robbins attended a writer's retreat where out of 600 attendees, she was the only black one. So later she wrote about her experience and the article went viral because people understand what it feels like to be the only one in the room. Only One in the Room is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. I bet you've had that feeling. Listen and you'll hear guests like Hilary Phelps, sister of Olympian Michael Phelps, sharing her story of her secret addiction, former Fox News reporter Christine O'Donnell, who was fired after one of her social media posts was taken out of contest context. Only One in the Room was named a top podcast by Reader's Digest, the Manual and Bustle magazines. Every week, Laura and her co host Scott Slaughter invites you to join them for an hour and lose yourself in someone's only one story. Check out Only One in the Room wherever you get your podcasts Buffet Brawlers.

Russell Poldrack (49:30)

Glory Holes Gone Wrong, Cannibalistic Castration Cabinet Public Poopers. These are just a few of the crazy topics you'll hear covered on Excuse Me, that's Illegal, the pettiest podcast around. Whether you need a break from all that murdery true crime stuff or just enjoy hearing hilarious stories told in a unique way, I got what you need. I'm Leroy Luna, your fearless host chauffeur. So come hop in my minivan and let's go for a ride. I promise you probably won't be disappointed. Excuse me, that's Illegal is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, basically everywhere you consume podcasts, with new episodes dropping on the 10th, 20th, and 30th of the month.

Joanna Fortune (50:14)

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