The Untold Story of the Christmas Tree & The New Rules of Eating Out

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Episode: The Untold Story of the Christmas Tree & The New Rules of Eating Out
Date: December 8, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this multifaceted episode, host Mike Carruthers explores two fascinating topics perfect for the holiday season:

• The rich, surprising history and science of the Christmas tree featuring expert guest Trent Presler.
• The evolving reality of dining out, including rising costs, tipping culture, and behind-the-scenes restaurant dynamics, with food writer Adam Reiner.

Both discussions blend storytelling, practical advice, and expert perspective, offering listeners deeper insight into festive traditions and everyday life.

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Segment 1: The Untold Story of the Christmas Tree

Guest: Trent Presler, Professor at Cornell University and author of Evergreen: The Trees That Shaped America

What Are Evergreen Trees?

• Definition & Adaptations:
  • Evergreens, unlike deciduous trees, don’t lose their foliage in winter. Their conical (pyramidal) shape helps manage snow and maximize side-light absorption during low winter sunlight [07:03].
  • "They are tough as nails. These trees grow in the most inhospitable climates… They can survive on a rock ledge with almost nothing." — Trent Presler [07:31]
  • Evergreens are ancient, appearing in the fossil record millions of years ago.

Origins of the Christmas Tree Tradition

• Pagan Roots:
  • Ancient pagan rituals brought evergreen boughs indoors during the winter solstice as symbols of hope and life amid darkness [08:35].
• German Beginnings:
  • Modern Christmas tree traditions began in 16th-century Germany, where villagers decorated trees with bread, ginger, apples, and candies [08:35].
• Royal Influence & Cultural Spread:
  • The British royal family popularized tree decorating, especially after a widely circulated image featured English royalty with a decorated tree.
  • "It was one of the original viral images." — Presler [09:48]
  • Food-centric decorations symbolized abundance.

Surprising Historical Roles of Evergreens

• The Pine Tree Riot:
  • Long before the Boston Tea Party, the Pine Tree Riot marked colonial resistance to British control of American white pine trees, which were coveted for ship masts [10:45].
  • Colonists would cut trees just below the legal size threshold to avoid royal claims—hence, many colonial homes feature wide, old pine floors [11:51].
  • "If it was 24 inches, it would technically be the property of the crown." — Presler [11:56]
• Evergreens in War:
  • During WWI, 400,000 U.S. military men were mobilized to harvest Sitka spruce in the Pacific Northwest, critical for making fighter planes [28:13].
  • "We supplied lumber for the Allies to build airplanes and it really turned the tide in the war." — Presler [29:10]

Evergreens: Utility and Spiritual Value

• Building Material:
  • Evergreens are unmatched for their “lignocellulose” structure, which makes their wood both strong and ideal for construction, furniture, and composite products [12:25].
  • "I can't think of anything that occupies…both extreme utilitarian value and spiritual…to society." — Presler [12:38]
• Farming vs. Wild Cutting:
  • America's wild evergreen forests were extensively logged for 400 years, but now most timber comes from tree farms on 40-year harvest cycles [14:19].
  • Georgia is the leading state for evergreen seedling production [14:51].

Christmas Tree Farming: The Fine Art

• How They’re Raised:
  • Christmas trees are the same species as those grown for lumber, but are pruned and shaped for fullness and visual appeal—sometimes using specialized tools [19:00].
  • "Hundreds of steps…prune them, shape them…No one likes a sparse Christmas tree." — Presler [19:20]
• The Business Model:
  • Tree farming requires patience—eight to ten years elapse before harvest. Most farmers must supplement income with other crops [20:21].
  • "There are very few crops in the world—wine is one of them—where you have to plant and wait years before you get a crop." — Presler [20:22]

Tree Types, Scents & Cultural Symbols

• Varieties:
  • Choice often comes down to fragrance and feel; balsam fir is cherished for its iconic “Christmas tree smell” [21:07].
  • "A rose smells like a rose, and a Christmas tree smells like a Christmas tree." — Presler [21:25]

The Rockefeller Center Tree

• A tradition since the Great Depression, launched by construction workers [22:20].
• Head gardener Eric Pauc searches the northeast each year for the perfect 70–80ft Norway spruce, sometimes by knocking on homeowners’ doors [22:20].

Artificial vs. Real Trees

• Artificial Trees:
  • Chosen for reusability and convenience, but typically discarded after a decade [23:56].
  • "It's kind of not true that artificial trees are forever…" — Presler [24:09]
  • The fake tree market has evolved, with companies like Balsam Hill mastering "artificial authenticity" [26:34].
• The Emotional Factor:
  • Many switch to artificial for convenience, but nostalgia draws people back to real trees.
  • "Nothing can replace a real tree. The smell, the texture, and the imperfections of it…" — Presler [24:49]
  • "You switch to artificial and then you miss the real." — Presler [25:36]

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Segment 2: The New Rules of Eating Out

Guest: Adam Reiner, Food Writer & Author of The New Rules of Dining Out

The Struggles Facing Restaurants Today

• Economic Pressure:
  • Costs have risen for both diners and restaurants (labor, food costs), squeezing margins and limiting experience [33:56].
  • "The restaurant economy is struggling and probably broken in many ways that most…can't really see." — Adam Reiner [33:56]
• Negative word-of-mouth travels faster than positive [34:55].

A Brief History of Restaurants

• Origins in America:
  • The first modern American restaurant: Delmonico’s in NYC, offering à la carte menus (since 1830s), shifting from communal, fixed meals to customized experiences [35:24].
  • Restaurants evolved into entertainment, not just nourishment—think tableside flambés or Benihana [37:34].
  • The post-WWII boom saw restaurants become central to American social and entertainment life.

The COVID Effect

• Permanent Shifts:
  • Habits have changed: more delivery, more fast-casual. Fine dining and traditional sit-down experiences are less prevalent [39:44].

The Tipping Dilemma

• Customer Frustration:
  • New fees and expected higher tips—often via awkward digital prompts—annoy customers [40:29].
  • "You haven't given me anything. I have nothing to judge this tip on yet." — Mike Carruthers [43:49]
• Systemic Issues:
  • U.S. tipping subsidizes low wages; a federal “tip credit” leaves server base pay at just $2.13/hour [41:14].
  • While some restaurants try “service included,” higher sticker prices often meet consumer resistance.

Maximizing Your Restaurant Experience

• Dining Out is a Skill:
  • Approach with a positive, present mindset; customer demeanor shapes service [45:13].
  • "You can have a bad experience at a great restaurant or a great experience at a bad restaurant…the constant variable…is you." — Reiner [46:47]
• Tips for Interaction:
  • Greet staff warmly. “Tell them you’re really excited to be there…Restaurant workers really do appreciate that enthusiasm.” — Reiner [47:26]
  • When seeking recommendations, provide dietary preferences rather than asking vague questions like “What’s your favorite?” [48:40]
• Staff Experience:
  • Not all waitstaff have tried every menu item; restaurants with better staff training or perks tend to be more knowledgeable [49:24].
• Sales Pressures:
  • Sometimes servers will be told to “push” certain dishes to reduce waste, especially high-cost or short shelf-life items [50:55].

Restaurant Reality: Organized Chaos

• Behind the Scenes:
  • "Nothing that you ask for in a restaurant is ever easy. The natural state of a restaurant is chaos…staff is there to guard you from it." — Reiner [52:36]
  • Special requests, modifications, or “simple” changes often complicate kitchen workflow.

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Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The intersection of tradition and economics:

  • "Christmas trees are the same species that if you just let them grow, they'll be 100ft tall and can be con lumber. They're just raised differently." — Presler [19:00]
  • "You can have a bad experience at a great restaurant or a great experience at a bad restaurant…The constant variable...is you." — Reiner [46:47]

• On authenticity and meaning:

  • "They're selling more authentic [artificial] trees by perfecting the art of imperfections…testing Americans' very notion of what authenticity is in the first place." — Presler [27:10]
  • "If your server comes over to you and you're looking at your phone and not paying attention, that may be a missed opportunity." — Reiner [47:37]

• On economic realities:

  • "The menu prices are subsidized by the labor of the tipped workers." — Reiner [41:38]
  • "All the people working behind the scenes…their job is to try to guard you…from the chaos behind the scenes." — Reiner [52:36]

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Bonus Intel: Surprising Food Facts

Quick-hit takeaways from the episode:

• Some foods make you hungrier:
  • Salty snacks, diet sodas, juices, and processed foods can spike cravings and lead to increased hunger rather than satiety [53:59].

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Yawning science trivia [04:22–06:00]
• Christmas Tree Deep Dive (Trent Presler) [06:00–29:14]
• Dining Out Realities (Adam Reiner) [33:01–53:54]
• Foods that Make You Hungrier [53:59–55:21]

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

This episode reflects the podcast’s trademark blend of curiosity and practical life wisdom. Both guests speak plainly and with warmth, weaving personal anecdote, scientific rigor, and actionable advice together. The result: listeners walk away with a deeper appreciation for both holiday traditions and the hidden dynamics of eating out.

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For further reading:

• Evergreen: The Trees That Shaped America by Trent Presler
• The New Rules of Dining Out by Adam Reiner

(Find links to the books in the episode show notes.)

Transcript

[A]

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Today on something you should know. Yawning is contagious, but do we really know why? Then the fascinating story of Christmas trees and are they any different than normal evergreen trees?

[B]

The fascinating thing is that Christmas trees are the same species that if you just let them grow, they'll be 100ft tall and can be con lumber. They're just raised differently. So the cultural practices on Christmas tree farms are fine tuning those trees to make them look good for Christmas.

[A]

Also, did you know eating some foods can actually make you hungrier? And the new reality of dining out, why it's so expensive and what you don't see behind the scenes.

[C]

Nothing that you ask for in a restaurant is ever easy. The natural state of a restaurant is chaos. And, and all of the people that are working behind the scenes, their job is to try to guard you as the guest from the chaos behind the scenes.

[A]

All this today on something you should know.

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[B]

Something you should know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[A]

Something you should know with Mike Carruthers. I think we've all experienced the fact that yawning can be contagious. But why? That's what we're going to start with today. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers. Welcome to Something you should know. So the reflex to yawn has its roots in physiology. Tiredness, boredom, maybe even brain temperature. But the contagious part of yawning? That's a real mystery. Research shows that seeing, hearing, or even thinking about someone yawning can trigger a yawn in you. Why does that happen? Well, there are two leading theories. One is automatic mimicry. Our brains automatically imitate actions we observe thanks to mirror neuron systems. When we see someone yawn, the same neural circuits fire as if we were yawning. The other theory is about how groups behave in social species, including humans. Contagious yawning may have evolved to help synchronize the group state. It's not fully explained yet. For example, that popular we yawn to bring oxygen to our brain, and so we trigger each other. Well, that idea has largely been discounted. And while it may relate to empathy, because we do catch yawns from people we're close to more often, the link between yawning and empathy is consistent across studies. So why we yawn when other people yawn, it just isn't really well understood. And that is something you should know.

For many people who celebrate Christmas, the season doesn't officially begin until the pine tree goes up in the living room. It's the centerpiece of the tradition so familiar we barely question it. But the pine tree isn't just a holiday symbol. It's a survivor, a resource, and a driving force in American and human history. Its journey from wild forests to living rooms is far more remarkable than most people realize. And here to walk us through that story is Trent Presler. He's a professor at Cornell University's Applied Economics and Management Program and author of the book Evergreen the Trees that Shaped America. Hi, Trent. Welcome to something you should know. Happy holidays.

[B]

Hi, Mike. Thanks for having me.

[A]

Sure. So explain what an evergreen tree is. I mean, you can look at it and see it's different than other trees. It has needles and not leaves, and the needles stay on in the winter. But from your perspective, what is an evergreen tree?

[B]

It's so many things. First of all, the main difference, which is rooted in the name, obviously, is that they don't lose their foliage in the winter. So they're extremely winter hardy, and they've evolved this kind of strange conical shape, which is different from all other trees. And in part, that's because they grow in the northern climates where there's a lot of snow, and that kind of helps deflect snowfall. Another fascinating thing about their shape, the identifiable Christmas tree shape of an evergreen, is also related to capturing as much light as possible. They grow so far north that there's often in the wintertime, you know how the sun kind of shines low in the sky, so you get a lot of side light instead of overhead light. So by having that pyramidal shape, they're able to absorb a lot of light from the sides in addition to overhead. But they are tough as nails. These trees grow in the most inhospitable climates. I compare them to the botanical equivalent of city pigeons. They can survive on a rock ledge with almost, you know, clinging to life with almost nothing. And they're also prehistoric. They are some of the first plants that appeared in the fossil record hundreds of millions of years ago.

[A]

And so one day somebody said, let's bring a Christmas. Let's bring an evergreen tree into the house because it's Christmas. And I never really understood, like, well, what was that about? But how did that come about? Do we know? Or did it just kind of happen? And now we do it because everybody does it.

[B]

We have a vague idea. So there were pagan Rituals associated with the winter solstice in ancient history. And people would bring in evergreen boughs and evergreen trees from outside as kind of a talisman against winter's darkness. And on the winter solstice, the shortest day of the year, the evergreen boughs represented hope for the future and sort of a light and life in the darkness. And then the first known recorded instance of, I guess, a modern era Christmas tree. There were a couple of reports in the 1500s in Germany, in small villages in Germany where villagers erected trees and decorated them with bread and ginger and apples and candies. And then it kind of. It spread throughout Germany first, and then, you know, from there, it really spread throughout Europe and eventually made its way to the United States in the early 1800s. The tradition of bringing in a tree for the winter.

[A]

Wasn't the British royal family somehow involved in the story of popularizing the Christmas tree?

[B]

Probably the most popularized form of a decorated tree happened in England with some members of the royal family who put up a tree and decorated it. And then there was. There was a very popular magazine in America in the 1800s called Godey's Lady Book. And they published this photo of English royalty posing with a decorated tree. And it kind of spread. I guess it was one of the original viral images. And it spread this image of families gathered around a tree. You know, at the time, it was twinkling with whale oil, candles, and silver thread, and fruits. And it was kind of a. At that time, the decorations were more a symbol of abundance and plenty. So there were a lot of food items that were used.

[A]

And so the evergreen tree played some role in the American revolution. Can you tell that story quickly?

[B]

Oh, sure. It's so fascinating. Everyone thinks, well, the revolution started with the Boston Tea Party. In fact, it started with the pine tree riot. So by the 1500s, Britain had cut down almost every single tree on their land. And they ran out of tall trees to make ship's masts for the Royal Navy. And so they were kind of, you know, desperate for lumber. And France controlled the Pyrenees and other nations basically blocked off their access to large trees in Europe. So the British came to America initially in search of large white pine trees to cut down to make masts for their. The Royal Navy ships. And, of course, that led to conflicts with not just indigenous peoples that were here, but British colonists here who were trying to make their own living cutting lumber and shipping it back to Europe. But the Brits wanted them to be cutting whole tree masts, whole tree trunks to use for masts. And there Were many disagreements where the crown sent around these royal surveyors in the woods to chop hatchet marks in trees to indicate that they belonged to the crown because they were over two feet wide. And so colonists protested by cutting down every tree that was 23 inches wide. And so you often see in a lot of pre revolutionary homes, the wide pine plank flooring that's 23 inches wide, because if it was 24 inches, it would technically be the property of the crown.

[A]

So the wood of an evergreen tree is used for a lot of things, right?

[B]

Yes. So as a class of trees, evergreens are the most valuable plants on earth. So we use them for lumber, for building supplies. And the fascinating thing for me about them, and part of what interested me in writing this book, was the connection between their extreme utilitarian value and their spiritual and sacred value to society. And I've racked my brain. I can't think of anything that occupies or straddles those two categories. Maybe like the Thanksgiving turkey, I'm not entirely sure. But we cut down enormous volumes of evergreens to build houses to mill into lumber, two by fours construction timbers, shingles. And now increasingly, we're using evergreens for composite wood products. Things like plywood or medium density fiberboard, Things that are used for, let's say, Ikea furniture. Evergreens have this fascinating cellular structure. They're lignocellulose. It's a long scientific story, but basically, the way they're constructed, their cells fit together almost like lego bricks. And it makes the lumber from evergreens very, very strong. And let's say an oak or a maple tree, a tree that, a deciduous tree that has leaves, Their cellular structure is more kind of jumbled up. And you can see under a microscope that it's less linear. There are fewer linear chains, and it's a little bit more sort of circular. So the strength of evergreen timber is really rooted in its cellular structure. And that since the dawn of time, has made them a preferred building material for people.

[A]

And are they grown for that purpose? Are they farmed? I guess is the term I would use. I mean, do they or are they cutting down wild trees because there's so many, they don't need to plant them?

[B]

So historically, we did cut down wild forests. And all across this country, for about 400 years, we pretty much leveled all the wild evergreen forests. Today, it's much different. So we have our national park system, we have a state and federal forest management system, and the biggest lumber and paper pulp producing companies in this country and around the world for the most part are farming Christmas trees. Basically they're farming evergreens for timber harvest and that's usually done on a 40 year cycle. So imagine it's just a corn farm, except you're planting pine trees or spruces or firs and they'll let them grow for 30 to 40 years till they get to be a harvest size and then they cut them down. And that's really kind of the only sustainable way today that we can supply all of our needs, both from everything from Home Depot lumber to your Starbucks coffee cup. We need a whole lot of timber and there aren't enough forests, intact wild forests around the world to supply that demand. So tree farms have become a huge business, especially in the state of Georgia. They're the number one state in the country for evergreen seedling production really Well.

[A]

I want to ask you specifically about Christmas tree farming In a moment. I'm speaking with Trent Pressler. He is a professor of Applied Economics and Management at Cornell University and author of the book Evergreen the Trees that Shaped America. It's time for Cyber Monday Dell Technologies Biggest Sale of the Year. That's right. You'll find the lowest prices of the year on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 plus with Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you, plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options. They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect. Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're finishing up, these PCs and accessories make the perfect gifts for for everyone on your list. Shop [e-mail] deals and don't miss out on the best prices of the year. That's Dell.com deals.

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So Trent, the trees that we take into our home and decorate, for the most part they are grown for that purpose. And how is that different than growing pine trees for lumber furniture?

[B]

Fascinating thing is that Christmas trees are the same species that if you just let them grow, they'll be 100ft tall and can be con lumber, but they're just raised differently. So the cultural practices on Christmas tree farms are fine tuning those trees to make them look good for Christmas. So that involves quite a few steps, hundreds of steps, in fact, from the moment you plant that tree as a seedling to the moment maybe eight to ten years later when it gets cut down for a Christmas tree. They prune them, they shape them a couple times a summer. And by cutting off and kind of shearing the branches, the tree responds by producing even more branches. So like an even fuller structure, nobody likes a kind of gangly looking, empty, sparse Christmas tree. Everyone likes a full tree. So it involves all kinds of tricks of the trade. Not just shearing, but also Christmas tree farmers will use almost like a cigar cutter to kind of splice the top leading spire of a Christmas tree, which makes the tree think that, well, maybe I shouldn't be growing taller. And they invest more energy in their lower branches and then becoming more, you know, a thicker, more beautiful tree.

[A]

So if I go into the Christmas tree farming business, I have to wait eight to 10 years before I make a dime.

[B]

Oh yeah, it's brutal. The business model doesn't really work. Imagine there are very few crops in the world. Wine is one of them, where you have to plant it and then wait many years before you get a crop. But yeah, you plant seedlings and then you know it's going to take eight to 10 years to become harvestable size. So what do you do in the meantime? Well, most Christmas tree farmers have other sources of income off the farm. Either they have day jobs somewhere else or they grow other things like pumpkins or flowers or anything else that you might find at a farm stand in the fall.

[A]

And what about the different types of fir trees that people use? You know, when I go to the Christmas tree stand, there's the, what do you call it, firs over here. And the, what's the difference?

[B]

Well, a lot of it's based on personal taste. Some of the differences are in the aroma. Balsam fir are famous for having that piney scent that it's hard to describe any other way than saying it smells like a Christmas tree. And then there are other, oh, I love that smell too. And it's so recognizable. You know, there are very few smells that you can just say, oh yeah, smells like a Christmas tree. You know, you think of like, well, a rose smells like a rose. And you know, you can think of a few things like that where you just describe the smell with the one word that is the thing, right? A rose smells like a rose and a Christmas tree smells like a Christmas tree. But I couldn't describe to you what that smell is like. Is it resinous or spicy or earthy or woodsy? I don't really know. I can't say. And I'm sure an organic chemist could probably go through the whole list of compounds that make it smell like that. But a Christmas tree is just a Christmas tree.

[A]

So the one Christmas tree, if I think of a famous Christmas tree, is the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree. And that's been a tradition for, well, I don't know how long. But what is that story? It always comes from somewhere in New York, from somebody must go scouting Christmas trees. How does that all work?

[B]

Yes, well, the Rockefeller center tree tradition really began during the Great Depression. And there were workers kind of constructing all the buildings around what is now Rockefeller center, iron workers and steel workers and very down on their luck. And they decided to bring in an evergreen. It was a 20 foot tall fir. They brought it in, they decorated it with kind of remnants of their lunch. So like sardine cans and things like that. And that was the beginning of the tradition. So ever since the 1930s, there's been a tree at Rockefeller center every year. And it's become the iconic Christmas tree, at least for the United States, if not for the entire world. And there's one man at the heart of that entire operation. His name is Eric Pauc and he is the head gardener for Rockefeller Center. And his job every year is to drive his old beat up pickup truck around the Northeast, looking and hunting for the most perfect specimen for the Rockefeller center tree. Typically almost every year, it's a Norway spruce somewhere around 70 to 80ft tall. And in many cases recently especially, they've come from upstate New York. And then he'll just knock on people's doors and literally knock, knock. Hello, I'm the guy from Rockefeller Center. Can I cut down the giant tree in your front yard?

[A]

So it seems. I don't have the data, but it seems like more and more people, for reasons of cost and convenience and whatever else, are moving more towards artificial trees, which can't be good news for Christmas tree growers.

[B]

People argue that the main benefit of the artificial trees, of course, is that they're not disposable necessarily. You can reuse them for many years. They don't have the needle drop and the mess in your living room that real trees do. But a lot of research shows now that actually people still do throw away their artificial Christmas trees. They just wait, usually around 10 years to do it. After 10 years, maybe you get sick of it. It's got dust, the branches are bent. It's kind of not true that artificial trees are forever. They're not just like, you know, something like IKEA furniture. There's some research that shows that the average lifespan of IKEA furniture is about seven years. The average lifespan of an artificial Christmas tree is about 10 years.

[A]

Well, I certainly understand why you might want an artificial tree, but, boy, there is something about a real Christmas tree.

[B]

Nothing can replace a real tree. The smell, the texture, and the imperfections of it, the things that kind of remind us of our childhood still hold so much power. And a lot of baby boomers actually switched to artificial trees after their kids left the house. And they did so for a couple reasons. The first was convenience, because, well, now I don't have the mess of the needles, and it's just a lot easier and I don't have to go through the hassle. And the second was, I think for many people, they felt like, well, I'm no longer tied to those childhood traditions because my children are no longer at home. And then I've heard as I traveled the country, you're not the only person I have heard this from, that you switch to the artificial and then you miss the real. I have heard that so many times from people that they do it for the reasons I just described. But then it kind of makes them miss the magic of a real tree.

[A]

Yeah, I miss the. Every year, my brother and I would get in the car with our father and we would go look at Christmas tree lots. And, you know, it was a whole tradition, and now it's. Now you just go to the closet and get the box out. And it just doesn't. It doesn't have the. It doesn't have the memory that that did. So, yeah, I can understand that. But on the other hand, you know, I remember a time when fake Christmas trees looked really fake, but some of them now look so real that, you know, I understand the appeal more now than before. But as you say, the ones that look really good are pretty expensive and, you know, so you're gonna have to keep it for years before you get your money's worth.

[B]

Well, you're right. The original Christmas trees were basically toilet brushes, bristle brushes, attached to these wire stands and then spray painted green. They were so clumsy and weird. And then we had the era of the Evergleam trees, the silver metallic trees that were terrible fire hazards and burnt down some American homes. And then the first generation of what I would call plastic trees, the modern plastic Christmas trees, just looked fake. And there's one company in particular, Balsam Hill Brands, that has really revolutionized the artificial tree market in the last, let's say, 10 years. And their artificial trees now look shockingly realistic. And they identified the thing that you just did, which is that the fake trees were looking too fake. So they worked with their suppliers in China. They used real trees as models to make artificial trees. So now you get a tree from Balsam Hill Brands, and some of the branches have imperfections or they're bent or twisted in a certain way, or maybe they're slightly asymmetrical, or there's a pine cone that's dripping off and kind of hanging awkwardly to the side. And so they've perfected the art of imperfections in trees. And in that way, they're selling more authentic trees. And they're also really testing Americans very notion of what authenticity is in the first place.

[A]

So lastly, anything that we haven't talked about that you think is really fascinating that we should mention, because it's so fascinating.

[B]

There was one other thing I came across in my research that I just couldn't believe, which was the massive mobilization of the US military during World War I. We needed to supply the Allied forces with timber to make fighter planes, to make airplanes. And the first generation of fighter planes in the early 1900s were often made out of a combination of aluminum, lightweight aluminum, and wood. And the wood that was most preferred for that purpose was Sitka spruce, which grew right on the ocean in Oregon and Washington. And kind of these low lying saltwater bogs. And so the US military mobilized. It was close to 400,000 military men brought them in from other branches of the military and shipped them to the Pacific Northwest to cut down Sitka spruces, which we would then haul across the country by train and put on boats to Europe. So we supplied lumber for the Allies to build airplanes and it really turned the tide in the war.

[A]

Well, what a great story about a tree. I never knew there was such science and history to the evergreen tree. I appreciate you sharing it. I've been speaking with Trent Presler. He is a professor of Applied Economics and Management at Cornell University and he's author of the book Evergreen the Trees that Shaped America. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Trent. Merry Christmas. You know, I've been using AG1 for several weeks now, and what I really like is how simple it makes things. I mean, I'm not good at complicated morning routines and AG1, it's just simple and consistent. AG1 is the daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants all in one scoop. And I love that because I don't want a handful of pills in the morning. Nope, one scoop. Shake it up. Done. My routine is simple. I take it first thing in the morning, usually while I'm making coffee. And I can feel good knowing I'm giving my body real support. And I do notice steady, consistent energy throughout the day. And my digestion feels great. And I really appreciate knowing that it's helping fill in those nutrient gaps that tend to happen when life gets busy. Now I've been trying the different flavors. Original and citrus are my favorite so far, and it's actually something I look forward to in the morning. And this time of year when routines tend to fall apart, AG1 is the thing that keeps me consistent. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.com something you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3 and K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement, AGZ for free, which has been a game changer for my nightly routine. That's drinkag1.com something for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. It's a busy time. Cold weather, holiday plans. It's the time of year when I just want my wardrobe to work without any effort. Which is why I've been all about Quints. They make it easy to look sharp, feel good, and find gifts that actually last. Everything they sell is made from premium materials, built to hold up and priced without the luxury markup. Quince makes the essentials everyone needs. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters, of which I have more than one, are just 50 bucks and honestly, they feel like something triple the price. Their Italian wool coats look and feel designer and their outerwear lineup is really solid down jackets, wool topcoats, and even leather styles that are made to last season after season. Everything at Quint's is made from premium materials in ethical, highly trusted factories. And because Quint's cuts out the middlemen, you get the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the cost. Seems like everyone I know is now shopping at Quince. You should probably too get your wardrobe sorted and your gift list handled with Quince. Don't wait. Go to Quince.comSYSK for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comSYSK free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSYSK.

Dining out isn't what it used to be. Prices are up, people are going out less, and when they do go out, expectations are high. Yet many restaurants and some of the big chains are struggling to stay afloat. And then there's tipping, which has turned into a controversy that no one was arguing about 10 years ago. So what is going on in the world of dining out? To help sort through it, I'm joined by Adam Reiner. He's a food writer whose work has appeared in Bon Appetit, Food and Wine and New York Magazine. He's also worked in some of New York City's most popular restaurants, and he's author of a book called the New Rules of Dining Out. Hi Adam. Welcome to something you should know.

[C]

Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me.

[A]

So without knowing a whole lot about it, my sense is that the restaurant business is struggling. Is it?

[C]

I definitely would say that the restaurant economy is struggling and probably broken in many ways that most restaurant goers can't really see. But I think it's important to remember that whatever things that we feel as restaurant customers, the restaurants themselves also feel so, you know, obviously prices are going up and it's something that's very frustrating for people who love to dine out because the cost of dining out is more expensive. But it's exactly the same behind the scenes. Food costs are rising, labor costs are rising. And so it really is kind of, I think, creating a dynamic where restaurants aren't necessarily, you know, as able to. To provide the type of experiences that. That they. That they used to. But they certainly are, I think, working as hard as they can to not let the public see them sweat. And when they're at their most graceful, they do that.

[A]

Well, sure, I mean, a great dining experience is a great dining experience, but, boy, a lousy one is really lousy.

[C]

Right? Yeah. They always say, you remember, you know, you'll tell 10 friends about the bad restaurant experiences, but you may only tell one about the great ones.

[A]

So when did this whole idea. I've always wondered this. When did this whole idea of restaurants start? Because why would you one day say, you know, let's go somewhere else and eat our dinner instead of eating it at home? Like, somebody had to have come up with that. When did that all start?

[C]

Well, what I find most interesting, when you look back at the history of restaurants, and I. I'm not a historian, so I. I don't know if I'm going to be able to answer. Answer this question as completely as you. As you'd like, but I can certainly give, I think, some insights on the past, let's say, 200 years and what you find. Like, in the United States, they're really. The first modern restaurant as we know it is Delmonico's in New York City, which started to serve like a. A la carte menu in around 18, I think, in the 1830s. So, you know, you're looking at about less than 200 years of history when you have a restaurant that is offering choice on the menu where you're able to sit with your private party and not at a communal table where you're able to dine at a time of your choice as opposed to a prescribed. Right. So before that, a lot of the places that you would find food would be like, taverns or inns, and you would come to dine there at a prescribed time, you would sit down with. With everybody else. You'd be served the type of, like, you know, whatever meal was on offer that night, but it wouldn't necessarily be choice. So I actually think that that's one of the reasons why restaurants have become so popular over the last, you know, few centuries is because there is that sort of sense of customizability about it. Where these restaurants are really have become designed to try to. To deliver an experience for you that's very personalized. If you love, you know, to eat steaks, you can find a place that's really going to blow you away with steak. If you love pasta, you can go to a wonderful Italian restaurant with fresh pasta. But the idea that that is. Is somehow something that has always existed in American society is really not quite true.

[A]

And so I understand you're not a historian, but. So Delmonico started in New York and it's still there.

[C]

It is. There was a hiatus, so it recently kind of reopened with, like, new ownership that's also kind of connected to the former family that owned it. But it hasn't been continuously open. But, yes, you're right, it is still open.

[A]

And then what happened? Like, so you got this one really cool restaurant. Did the buzz spread quick and people. They started popping up on every corner or it was looked at with some skepticism or what?

[C]

I think it was more gradual. What I really found most in terms of, like, the connection between restaurant history and modern restaurants, I think you find in the post World War II period this kind of proliferation of these, like, elegant French restaurants where there's a sense of drama to the point where I think modern restaurant goers would seek out restaurants as a form of entertainment, which may have not necessarily been something that they were looking at before. So you would go to a place like the Four Seasons Restaurant, which opened in 1959, or you would go to a restaurant like a Le Pavillon, which was kind of a French import that. That arrived stateside during the World's Fair in 1939. And there was a sense that you would have, like, a flambe, banana dessert at your table. And all of a sudden, you know, dining out became something that wasn't just something to nourish you, but it was also something that can entertain you. And I certainly feel like in today's world, you know, there's not dinner in a show anymore. Now dinner is the show.

[A]

It seemed like for a long time, the real theatrical restaurants were like Benihana's, where, you know, it really was and is a show. It is a meal with a show.

[C]

Yeah, there was a. In the. In the 90s, late 90s in New York particularly, there was like, a theme restaurant wave that happened for a little while with places like Planet Hollywood and Hard Rock Cafe. And, you know, there were quite a lot of places that existed then that don't exist anymore. But again, I think that that era of time really shows us much more centered restaurants were, in terms of, like, how Americans think about entertainment and wanting to commune in spaces and. And restaurants being kind of a gathering place to share for occasions. I mean, Think about the, the pandemic and how disruptive that was to people's routines. I mean, I feel like for a lot of people that love to meet their friends at bars and restaurants, not having them available was like, it felt like you're living in, in some sort of like post apocalyptic world.

[A]

Is there a sense that things have come back to pre Covid levels in the restaurant business or did Covid change the restaurant business for good?

[C]

Yeah, I would say it's not come back anywhere near like the same, but I don't think anything can really be the same. If anything, I think the biggest change has been in terms of dining habits and the move toward, you know, food delivery at home and you know, people maybe not necessarily feeling like they need to go out and sit down in a full service restaurant to have that experience. I think we're seeing more of these kind of fast casual brands popping up where you know, food is kind of looked at a little bit more as a convenience or you know, you might be able to have that sort of restaurant like feeling at home if you order from a nice restaurant, but to have it delivered to.

[A]

Well, one of the things that people complain about when they talk about dining out, that never used to be complaint is tipping. Tipping has become, not only are you required to tip, but now they put like service charges and all this other stuff that just feels very rip offy.

[C]

I cannot really in good conscience defend the tipping system. You know, all I can say in terms of my perspective as an author and somebody who wants people to have better restaurant experiences is that this is the system that has evolved over time in the United States and in this country we, we often have these sort of commission based sales jobs like talent agencies and real estate brokers and things like that. It's kind of a part of our culture in a way that most likely has a lot of negatives to it. But I think what's most important with tipping is, is that you just, just understand that it's a way, it's something that you can do that you can make it work for you. It's a way that you can reward people for, for great service. It's a way that you can help be recognized by the staff maybe for your generosity. So it is unfortunate that the system exists the way it is. And I think there have been many restaurateurs that have tried to create a service included model. But generally consumers have shown resistance to higher prices that a result from that. So you know, in terms of actually fixing the tipping system, I think it's going to require some changes to laws. For example, you know, the tip credit, they call it is where, you know, federally, the law says that minimum wage for tipped workers is only $2.13 per hour versus $7.50. The idea is that the tips that you make will make up the difference between that 213 and $7.50, but it still does create a sort of economy where the menu prices are subsidized by the labor of the tipped workers.

[A]

Still, the theory behind tipping has always been, or had always been, that you tip someone above and beyond the price because you got good service or maybe exceptional service, and you tip accordingly. I think people are put off today by this assumption that tipping is mandatory at a very high level, regardless of whatever service you did or didn't get.

[C]

It is frustrating for a lot of people who go to restaurants or even go to bakeries or coffee shops. And every time you turn a corner, you feel like somebody's trying to, you know, pump you for an extra tip here or an extra tip there. That is unfortunate. But I think the reason that you're seeing that more often these days is because a lot of these businesses are really, really struggling to make the economics work. And the more that they can involve the consumer in helping to offset rising labor costs, then the more I think their businesses can stand to survive.

[A]

I guess the one thing about it, I mean, I get that, and I think a lot of people get that, but the one thing that really, I don't know, it just rubs me the wrong way, is when you go to, like, a coffee shop or a bakery or something, and you pay and you get that screen that asks for a tip.

[C]

Well, I don't.

[A]

You haven't given me anything. I have nothing to judge this tip on yet. But you want me to make a decision.

That'S not the time to ask for a tip.

[C]

I agree it's problematic. I mean, like I said, I really wish that I could somehow solve the tipping debate for you in this conversation. Again, all I can say is that I feel like in those type of situations where you are, you know, asked to leave a tip, or maybe you. You're going to a restaurant fairly frequently, there are ways that even being, like, generous to the person in your coffee shop, if you're. If you're going there on a regular basis, let's say once a week to have a coffee and a pastry, if you are the type of person that is comfortable being generous and leaving A dollar or $2 or whatever, in those situations, there is A good chance that the people who are working there will really start to kind of recognize you as somebody who, like, sees value in their work and appreciates what they're doing, even if it's not necessarily kind of traditionally in your mind, the way that you view what type of service you're supposed to get in order to tip on it.

[A]

So let's talk about, because you have the experience of working in restaurants, the best way to be a customer, like, what do you order? When do you order it?

How do you navigate the system so that you walk away feeling like, yeah, this was great.

[C]

There are a lot of things that I could suggest doing specifically, but I think even before we get into that, I think it's really important that you have the right mindset about going into a restaurant and your role in helping to create a great hospitality experience. So, first of all, I would say dining out is something that I view as a skill, not a talent. When we want to learn how to cook, it's very, you know, easy for us to go buy cookbooks or we watch videos on YouTube to find out how to make recipes. And we. We have resources to learn how to do that. We don't necessarily think of dining out as an improvable skill. One of the problems is that there's really not an authority to look at for, you know, to help us do that. Another problem is that a lot of people think that when you dine out, it should be a passive experience. I shouldn't have to worry about how I behave. They should take care of me, which to some degree is true. But you still have, you know, at least half of the year, at least 50% of the dynamic that's going on at the table. And you should be mindful about how your behavior, about how your attitude affects the quality of your service. Service. You know, a lot of these. These things, you know, really, the. The restaurant is. It doesn't like. What I'm saying is not to. To suggest that restaurants shouldn't be responsible for greatness, but when the customer goes into a restaurant with the understanding that you can have a bad experience at a great restaurant or a great experience at a bad restaurant, the. Ultimately, the. The constant variable and all of those experiences is you. So you really do set the tone for whether your experience is going to be a success or failure. Certainly the restaurant should perform at a high level, but ultimately it is about your attitude, how you engage. Language is very important. You know, one basic thing that I think is so great that I hope that your listeners would consider Doing is when you walk into a restaurant, the first person that greets you tell them that you're really excited to be there. There's something very disarming about that. And when you do say, you know, I'm really excited to be here, it shows that you've come to the restaurant for the purpose of dining and enjoying your meal, which, you know, obviously there are people that come to restaurants where the restaurant is sort of a secondary part. It's just to see a friend or such and such. But I think restaurant workers really do appreciate that enthusiasm. And generally, you should always remember that your enthusiasm and your energy is generally mirrored by the people who are serving you. So if your server comes over to you and you're looking at your phone and you're not paying attention, that may be a missed opportunity. If your server comes over to you and you ask them for the WI FI password instead of saying hello, that might be a missed opportunity.

[A]

Well, I'll buy that. But you're almost making it sound like you've got to be on your best behavior and you've got to step up to the plate. But a lot of times I don't go to a restaurant for anything other than what you said. I'm meeting a friend. We needed a place. I don't want to do a big song and dance for the restaurant staff. I'm here to see my friend.

[C]

It may feel like that, but I don't think that's really what I'm asking for people to do. I'll give you an example. Like, there are certain things that I think people do that they don't necessarily even realize that they're doing it in terms of how they engage with staff. One of the things that I say is never ask your server's name without introducing yourself first. Another thing that I really recommend is that when you're asking for recommendations on the menu is to offer parameters that are about your particular dietary preferences, the things that you like, and be and asking less about what the server likes. So a question like, what's your favorite dish on the menu? May lead to the server telling you that they love this new eggplant dish. But if you don't like eggplant, then it really doesn't make very much sense for you to be asking them their favorites. Instead, you might say something like, you know, I'm in the mood for something lighter. Maybe seafood. I don't really like too much butter. Or.

Maybe something that's, like, a little lighter. Would you recommend? What seafood dish? Would you. Seafood entree would you recommend?

[A]

Is it safe to say that if you're a server at a restaurant and you've been there for more than a couple of weeks, you've tried everything pretty much on the menu?

[C]

The best restaurants will make an effort to constantly be bringing out food, whether it's specials every night or dishes from the menu. And I've, you know, I've worked in places that do that and I've worked in places that don't do that. But whether they do it or don't, it's important to remember that turnover in any restaurant staff is, always exists, except for the places that have been around for decades. But in general, there's always going to be some fairly newer staff that maybe they haven't been around long enough to be able to taste all of the different dishes. So, you know, hopefully, ideally, the people taking care of you have tasted all of the dishes. But even if the restaurant is making an effort to really educate their staff and give them a chance to taste everything.

There are times where you will find staff that maybe they're a little green and maybe they're kind of fudging the descriptions a little bit based on their handbook and not based on first, first hand experience. But I love when restaurants do things like offer stipends for their own employees to dine in restaurants, which is something that you see more and more as a perk. It really gives the employee the opportunity to come in and experience the restaurant the way the guests do.

[A]

Have you ever worked in a restaurant where, or do you know if it's common where, you know, the management will tell the servers, we got so much meatloaf, we really need you to push the meatloaf and it's okay. But I mean, like, there's some salesmanship because we need to move it out.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. You know, I'm not necessarily proud to say that, but you know, restaurants are a business and you know, having food waste is, is not, is not the best thing. So generally I would say it's the chefs that are the ones who are conveying that to the waitstaff, not necessarily the managers, because the chefs are the ones that really see the P and L reports and they're the ones that know, you know, the damage that can be done if you have unsold product. But in my experience, particularly when I worked at a lot of like, really, really high end steakhouses, you might have, for example, like a Chateaubriand steak where the chef is only doing like a limited amount of these giant chateaubriands that cost 200 or $250 for, you know, a steak for two there. I can remember situations where they would, like, there would be a spice rub that would be kind of basically pre season the meat so that it would have great flavor. And if you only had two steaks, there would be nights where you'd sell both of the steaks at by 6:30 and the first few tables would order them right away. But if you, if you had one left toward the end of the night, that steak, because it had been rubbed with seasoning, was. Would not be something that they could sell the next day. It wouldn't be the same. You know, they wouldn't want it to be sitting overnight in that spice rub. So in those cases, you know, and this is getting really inside baseball here, you might get a message from the kitchen where you're asked to come back and be like, hey, listen, Adam, we really need you to sell that Chateaubriand. Do the best, best you can.

[A]

What else from you? Because you have this behind the curtain view of this. What do you know about the restaurant business that maybe changes the way you interact as a customer? That I maybe don't know.

[C]

The biggest thing for me is, is that nothing that you ask for in a restaurant is ever easy. Like, the natural state of a restaurant is chaos. And all of the people that are working behind the scenes, their job is to try to guard you as the guest from the chaos behind the scenes. So whenever you're asking for some sort of special, you know, change to your dish or you're asking for something unique and different, it has the potential to kind of throw off the rhythm of restaurants, which generally have these systems in place that are designed to so that they can be consistent and efficient in their behavior. So I think that's definitely one thing that you realize when you work in restaurants, like right off the bat, that when people behave like they think something they're asking for is super easy, that you really just know that it's not.

[A]

Well, I can certainly tell you've worked in the restaurant business because you have the point of view and you have sympathy for the people who work there. And I think it's important for those of us who don't or have never worked in food service to understand that side of the business. I've been speaking with Adam Reiner. He is a food writer and author of the book the New Rules of Dining out. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Adam.

[C]

Thanks so much for having me.

[A]

You would think that eating food, any food would help satisfy your hunger, but some foods actually do the opposite. Salty snacks like chips or pretzels can actually leave you hungrier because of the high sodium content that triggers thirst, which the brain often mistakes for hunger. Diet sodas may also increase food cravings in some people, and artificial sweeteners can activate the brain's taste reward system without delivering actual calories. Juice, even no sugar added juice or 100% juice. Juice is basically liquid sugar without the fiber, causing quick spikes and crashes in your blood sugar levels. And sushi rolls made with refined white rice and then paired with salty soy sauce. They digest fast and don't keep you full for very long. The latest research shows that ultra processed foods digest so quickly that they can leave you hungrier than whole foods, which are always a better bet. And that is something you should know. I always appreciate anything you can do to help. Spread the word about this podcast. Telling other people to listen, telling them how much you enjoy it. It all helps and I appreciate it. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know Limu Imu and Doug.

[C]

Here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[B]

Cut the camera.

[C]

They see us.

[A]

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