← Something You Should Know
Something You Should Know
True Stories Behind the Greatest Christmas Songs & The Downside of Renewable Energy
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- [00:01]
Mike Carruthers
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- [01:50]
Annie Zaleski
What I love about this song, the origins, is that it was written during the summer. And so this was written by Mel Torment May and Robert Wells. And it was a very, very hot summer day and he was like, you know, writing this Christmas song, maybe this will cool me down. And so they ended up writing the song in like 45 minutes.
- [02:08]
Mike Carruthers
Also why you're probably not blinking enough and how the push for renewable energy and digital technology has a serious downside.
- [02:18]
Vince Beiser
So in a nutshell, renewable energy and digital technology are together causing massive environmental damage, mayhem and mur all this today.
- [02:30]
Mike Carruthers
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- [04:06]
Vince Beiser
Top experts and practical advice you can.
- [04:09]
Mike Carruthers
Use in your life today. Something youg Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something you Should Know. So let me ask you a question. Do you think you're pretty good at predicting how things will turn out? Most of us subconsciously predict how happy or unhappy we're going to be in the future, according to psychologist Art Markman. We usually get that wrong. For example, a kid might think his life will be complete if he just gets that one toy for Christmas. An adult might think they're going to be so much happier when they get that new car or be devastated if they lose that job or that relationship. But our long term happiness predictions are usually way off, Dr. Markman says. It's probably best to remember that there are a lot of factors that affect how happy we're going to be in the future and that no one single event will have that big of an influence on that happiness. And that is something you should know. Unlike any other holiday, Christmas brings with it its own music. Lots of music songs and carols that we listen to over and over again. Maybe you've noticed how some radio stations switch to an all Christmas music format and seem to do it earlier and earlier every year. And why do they do it? Because listeners like it. People love Christmas music and while some new songs get added to the mix every year, it is the classics that we're drawn to. And those classic songs all have stories Joining me to reveal some of the interesting backstories to many of your favorite Christmas songs is Annie Zaleski. She is an author, editor, and journalist with a focus on music and pop culture, and she's author of a book called this Is Christmas Song by Song, the stories behind 100 holiday hits. Hi, Annie. Welcome to something you should know.
- [06:15]
Annie Zaleski
Thanks for having me.
- [06:16]
Mike Carruthers
So let's start with why you like Christmas music so much and why you like going and investigating all the stories behind the songs.
- [06:24]
Annie Zaleski
Christmas music. I've always been a longtime fan, ever since I was a small child. And I think one of the things that I'm really fascinated by is that you can really see the world history, social movements, and they're all reflected in Christmas music. So when you look at the history of Christmas music across the decades, you can kind of see how American culture has moved forward.
- [06:47]
Mike Carruthers
So let's start off with White Christmas, because it's been around a long time. It's a perennial favorite. Everybody seems to like it. What's the story with White Christmas?
- [06:58]
Annie Zaleski
You know, so that was written by Irving Berlin. I don't think Irving Berlin needs any introduction. He's one of the greatest composers in American history. And he actually ended up writing it for a movie called Holiday Inn, and that came out now, 1942. However, White Christmas came out the year before and basically emerged during the Christmas season right after World War II broke out. The song was actually. He played it on his radio show. The song was actually shipped to the UK that year, late 1941, to kind of provide solace for troops. And what I just really love about this song is that it's reassuring. You know, it's a very. He's very empathetic about it. You know, it's a very kind of longing song. It's full of nostalgia. It's very wistful. That with the hope that maybe one day, you know, everyone will be together, Christmas will be better again. And it really kind of summed up the time, you know, it was a very anxious time in the world, a very fraught time. Families were being separated, and it was sort of a beacon of comfort, I guess.
- [07:59]
Mike Carruthers
Was it written? Was it written for that purpose? Was it written with soldiers in mind that one day they'll be home for Christmas? Or was it just. It just fit at the time.
- [08:09]
Annie Zaleski
Yeah, it just fit at the time. No, I mean, he wrote this movie up. So Holiday Inn had a couple of other holidays theme songs that were kind of included on the movie soundtrack, and it did not. You know, obviously, I Think When World War II broke out, it was one of those right place, right time things. The song just really summed up the mood.
- [08:28]
Mike Carruthers
So my favorite Christmas song that I love to hear when I hear it on the radio, I think, okay, it's Christmas Time is Nat King Cole's the Christmas Song.
- [08:38]
Annie Zaleski
What I love about this song, the origins that I did not realize until doing this book, is that it was written during the summer. There was actually a lot of Christmas songs that were written during the summer. And so this was written by Mel Torme and Robert Wells. And actually what happened is that Mel was going to Robert's house just for, you know, a writing session. And it was a very, very hot summer day. It was excessively hot, as he put it. And he happened to see on the piano, there were some lyrics that referenced Christmas carols roasting chestnuts. And he was like, you know what? Getting in the Christmas spirit, writing this Christmas song. Maybe this will cool me down. And so they ended up writing the. So in like, 45 minutes, they immediately took the song to Hollywood. And Nat King Cole, you know, liked the song enough that he recorded it the following year, twice, actually. He did two separate takes in 1946. But, you know, that just. That song just sums it up right there. You know, the. You know, that came out right as World War II ended. And so there were a lot of people that there were getting back together, you know, trying to recover from a very, very difficult four years. And so that also really kind of, you know, summed up and really provided a lot of comfort for families, sort of in the opposite way that White Christmas did.
- [09:49]
Mike Carruthers
You know, what's interesting to me about that song is there have been a lot of really good covers of that song. I mean, a lot. And some of them are really good, but they just don't quite do it the way Nat King Cole did it, 100%.
- [10:05]
Annie Zaleski
And I think that's, you know, his voice, he had such a singular voice. He was so deeply empathetic, and he was such a wonderful interpreter. He really lived the songs that he's saying.
- [10:17]
Mike Carruthers
And also, I think it's such a big part of it, he has that. I don't know what that is, that haunting thing in his voice. You know, Sting kind of has that same thing. There's a hauntingness about it that just makes the song. And, you know, another song, when I hear it at Christmas or when I hear it anywhere, it gets stuck in my head for the rest of the day. And that is Blue Christmas by Elvis.
- [10:42]
Annie Zaleski
Oh, I love Blue Christmas? Oh no, absolutely. You know, then that came out in 1957, you know, know, and it's funny, he wasn't actually the first one to do it, which I was very interested about, that had been recorded many times before. He ended up tackling it. But I think this is another one where his vocal performance just nailed it. You know, he just nailed the. When you're not having to go to Christmas, basically if you're having anyone who's having a melancholy Christmas and not having a great year, you know, he really, he really captured it, you know. And it's funny enough, the writer actually was inspired by Gloomy Day when he actually wrote it, J. Johnson and he was actually new known for penning scripts for radio shows. He wasn't necessarily a songwriter. He was commuting from Connecticut to New York City and it was a rainy day and he basically wondered why someone hadn't written a holiday song with some blues in it. And so he decided to write one himself. And he teamed up with a composer friend named Billy Hayes and they put it together.
- [11:40]
Mike Carruthers
I've certainly noticed, as I'm sure everyone has, that the Christmas classic song Stay Forever and there aren't a lot of new songs that really stick the way White Christmas or the Christmas Song do, but a few have and recently like Mariah Carey, I mean she's criticized for that song, her Christmas song, but it has stuck and it probably will stick for a while.
- [12:07]
Annie Zaleski
So she actually wrote it with a collaborator of hers, Walter Afoniseff, who he also co wrote Hero and One Sweet Day. And so they, they were writing a lot of songs together, you know, and she loved Christmas. I mean, I think that's obvious if everyone looking at it now, she really leans into it because of the song. But she loved Christmas and so she basically wrote this song, you know, it was a silly love song, you know, a whimsical love song, not silly, but whimsical. That she's basically waiting for her beloved, you know, that she's going to be underneath the Christmas tree, you know, waiting underneath the mistletoe, waiting for them to come come up, you know. And it's one of these songs that I'm still trying to figure it's become so popular and why it is just endured and why that one in particular has become a standard. And I think it's probably because, you know, you have her. She really leans into the vocal performance, she really goes for it. And the instrumentation as well is, you know, kind of old fashioned. You know, you have sleigh Bells, you have piano, you know, with a little bit of a different production that could have come out in another decade.
- [13:05]
Mike Carruthers
Well, it also seems like other songs like Blue Christmas, that when you hear it, it gets stuck in your head for a while until some other song comes and bumps it out. But it is, like, infectious in that way. It gets in your head. And, you know, what other song that's actually pretty new that I get stuck in my head all the time is Underneath the Tree by Kelly Clarkson. I mean, I just hear it and I can't get it out of my head. And I like it, but, God, I wish I could think of something else.
- [13:38]
Annie Zaleski
You said that. And I immediately started singing that in my head because, yeah, it is one of those memorable songs that like her hook with that. And, you know, it's funny, she wrote that song with Greg Kirsten and who has a very interesting background. He was in a 90s band called Gegita that very few people remember. But he's done a lot of production for mainstream pop, and they conjured kind of the wall of sound production style. They kind of modernized it and kind of drew on that. And, you know, basically, True Love Makes Christmas better. You know, I think it's one of those timeless songs that, you know, they. They went with the classics and decided to go for it. And I think her vocal performance, too, you know, she is obviously a big fan of Mariah Carey's, but also some of the other, you know, powerful songwriters and powerful vocalists, female vocalists through the years. And there are a lot of women who have sang Christmas songs. You know, Darlene Love, obviously, the Ronettes, and so that she's kind of in the long tradition of those very powerful women singing Christmas songs.
- [14:36]
Mike Carruthers
Let's get back to some of the classics. Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas. I mean, that's been around forever. Well, I don't know if it's been around forever. Has it been around forever?
- [14:44]
Annie Zaleski
It's been around since the 40s, which feels like forever, I guess, you know, depending on your perspective. I, you know, this was in meet me in St. Louis, which is, you know, a Judy Garland. So it's very connected to her post wizard of Oz. And what was so fascinating about the song is that it almost didn't come to be. So the songwriters were Ralph Blaine and Hugh Martin. And, you know, basically Hugh was writing the song and, you know, played. You played it. Just couldn't get the song to work and he threw it in the trash. And Ralph was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. And he actually, you know, said no, no, no, this is good and made him take it back out of the trash so they could finish it. And you know, even then, you know, obviously it's such a pivotal part of meet me in St. Louis as well. And it actually almost didn't end up in the movie apparently because they were worried that it was a little bit.
- [15:34]
Mike Carruthers
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- [18:42]
Annie Zaleski
Absolutely. And I think, you know, when I was talking about female vocalists, you know, just really nailing Christmas songs, she really did. And this one as well. So, you know, Richard Carpenter handled the music and Frank Pooler wrote lyrics, and people might not necessarily know who he was. What's interesting is that he wrote the song you basically as a Christmas gift for a girl with who he had a crush on. And, you know, it didn't work out or anything, but he kind of kept the song. And he later became a teacher. He was a choral director at California State University, Long beach, and met Richard and Karen Carpenter. And basically, you know, they. They asked, hey, do you have any Christmas song they could perform? And he dug out his lyrics and Richard wrote music to it. So, I mean, what a lovely story, you know, and he didn't realize that he was doing it. Richard just kind of invited Frank to the studio and said, hey, I want you to listen to something. And he put together this song and. But, oh, yeah. I mean, Karen's performance on this is just so. I mean, there's almost no words to describe how beautiful it is. And it's just so tender and dynamic, and it's really, you know, that was fairly early in their career becoming hit makers. And I think it was definitely one of those songs that showed, you know, another side of her and just showed her depth.
- [19:56]
Mike Carruthers
One Christmas song that's fairly popular that I am not a big fan of because I think it's cute the first time you hear it. It's not so cute. The 700th time you've heard it is I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas.
- [20:09]
Annie Zaleski
I knew you were going to say that because I did not realize what a polarizing that song was. And so this was actually written by a man named John Rox. You know, he basically. He had studied music in Vienna. You know, he wrote some Broadway songs. And the singer was 12. You know, her name was Gayla Peavey. And so they. She was kind of on, you know, a child star who was kind of on an upswing, and she sang the song. And I think what's most fascinating about this song Is that the way they promoted it? I think now it kind of foreshadowed the way music promotion is now. You know, so basically the whole story is she wants a hippopotamus for Christmas. And so how they promoted the song was saying she needs. The real gala needs a hippopotamus. And so they did all of these fundraisers and promotion. And they did a fundraiser and they actually donated people donated $4,000, which in the early 50s, you know, I calculated was more than $40,000 today. And they basically found an elephant, Matilda, and they. She went to the Oklahoma City Zoo, and she lived there for decades. So it's a weird song. And it's definitely. It's kind of All I Want for Christmas is My Two front teeth. There were a lot of songs like this in the early 50s, you know, the post World War II baby boom. You know, children were music consumers. And I think that was definitely one of the songs too geared toward them.
- [21:26]
Mike Carruthers
Well, and the Chipmunks Christmas song would fall into that category. But it's such a novelty song. Yeah, I guess you still hear it a lot at Christmas time, but. Yeah, but, you know, again, here I can hear it once a year. And that's plenty for me.
- [21:43]
Annie Zaleski
That one is so funny because it's one man. And he basically. And so if people know the song Witch Doctor by David Seville, and he put together the Chipmunk song. He bought a real, real cassette recorder and manipulated the tapes to make the chipmunk voices, which honestly, for the time was very forward thinking. And he basically made these characters, these chipmunks. It's funny because he actually almost did not end up on Chipmunks. You know, he wasn't sure if the singer should be them or insects. He actually thought of being butterflies, which is. Or mice or rabbits. They almost were not chipmunks, which is funny.
- [22:20]
Mike Carruthers
So I want to go back because we talked about White Christmas, which came out in the 40s, Bing Crosby and all that. But there's also I'll Be Home for Christmas, which is kind of similar in its theme and its time. And the same guy sings it. So sort that out.
- [22:38]
Annie Zaleski
Oh, boy. I mean. And so this. This came out in 1943, which, you know, obviously was in the middle of World War II. It was even more fraught time, I think, than when White Christmas came out. And, you know, basically it. It's less optimistic. I mean, I think, you know, even, you know, I'll Be Home for Christmas. When you hear the title, you're like, that's a promise. I'll be home there. But honestly, it. It's kind of. Listen to the song. The lyrics almost hint that coming home for the holidays is a fantasy, that this is something that might not be possible. You know, I think the parenthetical is if Only in My Dreams is. I think, you know, kind of, you know, basically points to that. Basically that, you know, that there's no guarantee. And I think this is another song that just really, really summed up the time. And funnily enough, the song actually has a very complicated backstory because there were lawsuits involved in terms of these songwriters. People had shared this song and there were cop. And so for a song that is just so melancholy and just, you know, so downtrodden, there was a lot of drama and legal drama behind the scenes. But Boy Bing just really to his performance and his delivery on the song too. You know, he really, really lived this song and leaned into the melancholy. But it was very. It was comforting in a way, you know, for people who weren't feeling great at the holidays, who were feeling like. Were feeling hopeless, that things weren't going to work out. You know, he. He was really the soundtrack to that and really told people it's okay to feel that way.
- [24:04]
Mike Carruthers
So when rock and roll showed up, it produced a couple of Christmas songs like Rocking around the Christmas Tree and Jingle Bell Rock that said, hey, rock and roll is part of the culture now.
- [24:18]
Annie Zaleski
Absolutely. And Jingle Bell Rock is another one of those. When I mentioned songwriting credits, that is a fascinating, fascinating one because the songwriters who are credited are Joseph Carlton Beale and James Ross Booth. And there's not a lot of information about them. You really have to kind of dig to sort of what they did. Bobby Helms over the years has always claimed, you know, he's no longer with us, but when he was alive, he claimed, I wrote a bunch of this stuff. I really rewrote this song. And he didn't get credit for it. And so. But. But he. And he was in country music. That was so interesting is that he had had a couple of country hits. So when he kind of came up with this song that was, you know, a little bit, you know, I want. It's funny because it's very early rock and roll, kind of easy going. You can tell that he was in country by the way with the instrumentation and the musician Chapang Gar and was on it. Big country music performer and just really sort of being laid back and sort of shuffling. And it's. It's just. It's one of those feel good songs when you Know, Jingle Bell Rock. Jingle Bell Rock is basically, it's people going, you know, you're going to Jingle Bell Square, you know, so it's, it's, it's kind of playing up the iconography of Christmas and just kind of for teenagers going out and dancing, that's very much this same thing with Rocking around the Christmas Tree, you know. And this is Brenda Lee, first off. Nailed it. This was another song that she recorded right in the dead of summer. And it was written by Johnny Marks, who is notorious because he also wrote Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer.
- [25:45]
Mike Carruthers
And she was only like 13, right?
- [25:48]
Annie Zaleski
No, actually, you know what she was, she was 12. She might have even been 12. I'd have to look up when her birthday was. She was so young and you wouldn't know it. I mean, I think that's what's so incredible about that song is that, you know, she always sounded so much more sophisticated and adult than she actually was.
- [26:04]
Mike Carruthers
And I remember reading in an interview with Brenda Lee that When Home Alone came out and Home Alone features that song, that, that was a real shot in the arm for the song 100%.
- [26:16]
Annie Zaleski
You know, and she said that it was a turning point, you know, and that it's really. She called an interview, it breathed new life into the tune and you know, it hit number one last year. I mean, I think that's what's striking, you know, decades after it came out, she, you know, it basically, you know, Mariah Carey, All I Want For Christmas Is yous parentally hits number one around the holiday season. And Brenda Lee did last year. Just unbelievable.
- [26:40]
Mike Carruthers
Well, as we were talking about before, you know, the all time great Christmas songs, they don't let many new members into that list very often, but when they. But sometimes there's like the little flurry and it happened like in the 80s with Wham and the Eagles. Their Christmas songs are now classics.
- [27:02]
Annie Zaleski
And it's funny when you think about it, you know, that was 40 years ago now, you know, and the eagles was almost 45 years ago. And so, you know, when we were growing up, those songs from the 40s and 50s, those were the classics. So yeah, they are now the classics. Wham's Last Christmas is so, you know, unbelievable because I think George Michael especially has been getting a lot more credit for his songwriting, his production, you know, in recent years. And that song he basically wrote himself, he was at his parents house and he was hanging out, you know, Andrew Ridgely, his Wham bandmate was also there and he basically got inspiration and he went upstairs and he happened to have a keyboard in his childhood bedroom and started writing the song. And then he actually ended up recording it in the studio by himself. There was just an engineer, and he played the instruments on it, too, with some synthesizers and a drum machine. And, you know, that was basically a George Michael production. And that song is so funny because the interpretations of it vary so wildly. You know, I mean, I. I've always said that, you know, that it's basically you run into an ex at, you know, at a Christmas time, and that you go through a whirlwind of emotions. You know, you're anger, you're bitter, you're sad, you know, you're longing and that, you know, you're. You're basically saying, nope, they're. They are no longer worth my time. You know, I'm done with you. It's time to move forward. But people have many different interpretations of that. It's. It's very, very interesting. I've had some heated conversations with people about last Christmas you would not expect for the way it sounds being such a synth pop classic.
- [28:32]
Mike Carruthers
And the Eagles.
- [28:34]
Annie Zaleski
Oh, the Eagles. And so. And I. You know, this is. It's funny that the Eagles have so many good songs. And I honestly think this is my. One of my favorite Eagles songs, to be very honest. And I think it's, you know, for starters, I think it's the vocal performances. You know, I think obviously their harmonies are unparalleled. And I think this one especially, this really highlights it. This was actually written, though, by Charles Brown. And so he is, you know, he was a very, very underrated musician, basically. You know, he was. He had started playing in the 1940s with Johnny Moore's three blazers, who actually had a hit with Merry Christmas, Baby long before, you know, it became very well known. And then he also fronted the Charles Brown Trio. And so he. But he basically, you know, recorded this song for King Records, which was a very, you know, infamous and very influential record label in Cincinnati. And so he basically, the Eagles found it and covered it. And so it had been released decades before, and they put just a really wonderful kind of R and B, you know, rock, soft rock spin on it. And like I said, I just, you know, I love the song. You know, I mean, I think Joe Walsh and Don Felder, they were really. They're such powerful guitar players, and they were very, very subtle. And it was actually the first time Timothy B. Schmidt contributed bass to an Eagles song, which I think also probably contributes to the sound of it as well.
- [29:56]
Mike Carruthers
Well, I must admit, I always like hearing stories behind popular songs. They're just so interesting to me and apologies to anybody who if we didn't get to your favorite Christmas song. We only have so much time and there are so many songs. I've been talking to Annie Zaleski. She's an author, editor and journalist, and one of her books is called this Is Christmas Song by Song the stories behind 100 holiday hits. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Great, Annie, Thanks. Merry Christmas.
- [30:27]
Annie Zaleski
Thank you so much. This was fun. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there and hoping it all works out well? With the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it today@progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [31:02]
Mike Carruthers
Bingo Blitz rules.
- [31:05]
Vince Beiser
If your bingo has ads in it.
- [31:07]
Annie Zaleski
That'S not a bingo.
- [31:08]
Vince Beiser
If it doesn't have the coolest tournaments, mini games and the most breathtaking design.
- [31:12]
Mike Carruthers
Nope, not a bingo.
- [31:13]
Vince Beiser
If you're binge bingo moment makes you feel so excited that you just want to burst in joy and scream out loud bingo.
- [31:20]
Mike Carruthers
Sorry.
- [31:20]
Vince Beiser
So you're playing Bingo Blitz.
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Annie Zaleski
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- [31:28]
Mike Carruthers
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- [31:31]
Vince Beiser
Now that's a bingo.
- [31:37]
Mike Carruthers
Over the last several years, we have developed new technologies that reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Solar, wind, batteries. And while all that may be a good thing, these new technologies require other natural resources. Not fossil fuels, but other things like metals. And this is also a concern and will continue to be a concern as these new technologies use more and more of these natural resources. Here to explain what this all means and why we should be concerned is Vince Bizer. He's an award winning journalist whose work has appeared in Wired, the New York Times, the Atlantic and Harper's. And he is author of a book called Power the Race for the Resources that will Shape the Future. Hey Vince, welcome to something you should know.
- [32:28]
Vince Beiser
Hey, thanks Mike. It's great to be here.
- [32:30]
Mike Carruthers
So let me first have you explain the problem because it's a problem I don't think many people think about. You know, we think about fossil fuels and developing new technologies that eliminate the need for fossil fuels. That that's A good thing. But there is another side to the story. So go ahead and explain that.
- [32:50]
Vince Beiser
Yeah, so the issue is, it's this great contradiction that in order to save the planet from the risks of climate change, we risk doing terrible damage, other forms of terrible damage to the planet. So in a nutshell, renewable energy and digital technology are together causing massive environmental damage, mayhem and murder. But we can do better.
- [33:18]
Mike Carruthers
Mayhem and murder?
- [33:20]
Vince Beiser
Yes, sir.
- [33:21]
Mike Carruthers
Well, we'll need to hear more about that in a moment. But the underlying reason for that, because you would think, well, you put a windmill up and it makes the thing go round and you get energy from that. What could possibly be the problem? Problem? What's the problem with all of this?
- [33:36]
Vince Beiser
So the problem is that in order to build all of the, all of the new technologies, all the machineries that we need for the energy transition, right, to build all the electric cars, all the wind turbines, all the solar panels, and also, by the way, all the digital tech that we all rely on every day, we need to build those things out of metals. So we need billions and billions of tons of metals like nickel and cobalt and lithium and rare earths and copper, in some cases more. We're going to need to dig out more metals than we have dug in the entire history of the human race to build all that stuff. And so to get that, so that huge demand that's already been sparked by the energy transition, in order to get those metals, we're cutting rainforests to the ground in Indonesia to get it nickel, children are being put to work in mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo. We're endangering a unique desert ecosystem in Chile, and on and on and on. It's all basically driven by this enormous worldwide scramble for the metals that we need to manufacture the hardware of the energy transition.
- [34:49]
Mike Carruthers
Why have we not heard about this before? I've never heard that this is a concern. I have heard things about, you know, that a lot of technology uses silver and that, you know, we had to mine that and. But I've never heard murder, mayhem and what you're talking about.
- [35:07]
Vince Beiser
I don't know. I mean, there certainly has been some reporting on it. I'm not the first person to take a look at it, but I think a lot of it gets obscured because, you know, most people think of, you know, if you're concerned about climate change, most people think like, oh great, well, I can switch from my fossil fuel powered car, my gasoline powered car to an electric car and then I'm done. Then I've done my bitcoin it, that's exactly what I thought. I bought my first electric car about six years ago, back in 2018, and felt all good about myself, all righteous, like I was helping to save the planet. But then I really started to wonder, well, where does all this, how is this car actually built? That's, that makes it different from my old car. And that's when I started looking into the supply chain behind the battery that powers that car, the motor that makes its wheels turn. And that's when I, you know, came to find out that, you know, the, the sources, many of the sources that we rely for these metals, that we need to build this stuff for all the batteries that we need, and all the rest of it comes from these really damaging sources. And I think, you know, to some extent that's a story that folks don't necessarily want to hear because, you know, we want to believe that, that there's a solution to climate change, that we're doing a bad thing and we can just switch to a good thing and everything will be okay. Well, I don't want anybody listening to this podcast to think that you should not buy an electric car and don't think renewable energy like solar and wind is bad. It is better than fossil fuel derived energy, but it all comes with its own costs. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Everything has downsides, everything has trade offs, and that includes, you know, the push towards renewables. That said, we are doing a lot of damage, we're set to do even more, but there are a lot of things we can do to minimize that damage, to reduce the harm that were caused.
- [37:06]
Mike Carruthers
Why don't we just recycle this metal? When your computer is obsolete, you take it down somewhere and they take whatever metal they put in it and put it in a new computer.
- [37:16]
Vince Beiser
Yeah, that's a great question. And that's what most people go to when they hear about this, because recycling also sounds great, right? It's one of those things that we think, oh, recycling is nothing but good, it's a solution. Well, again, recycling is definitely better than digging fresh metals out of the ground. It's much easier on the planet. But recycling too comes with its own costs. When we're talking about recycling metal, it's a really complex, very energy intensive process that basically doesn't even really happen for a lot of these materials in the United States. So when you look at the big picture, recycling is very energy intensive. It uses up a lot of energy, much of which comes from fossil fueled coal plants, natural gas plants. So recycling does Create a lot of carbon emissions, it creates a lot of pollution right when you're melting down these metals at incredibly high heats, all kinds of other stuff, toxic byproducts that get released. And also it's often done on the backs of some of the poorest people in the world. So I'll give you a quick example. I spent some time reporting for this book in Lagos, Nigeria with E waste recyclers. Because what I'd come to find out is that often what happens if you drop off your old laptop, your old cell phone, you know, at the, at the, at the Best Buy recycling bin or your, you know, your local church, E waste recycling driver, whatever. A lot of those, a lot of that stuff winds up in developing countries, in poor countries like Nigeria, where it gets into the hands of people who sit around all day, people earning, you know, three, four dollars a day, cracking open those cell phones, pulling out the little bits of valuable metals that are inside of them. There's little of copper and gold, which they can then sell to metal smelters who are usually somewhere far, far away in China or in Europe. And the rest of the stuff, the plastic, the cables just gets dumped or it gets burned in incredibly toxic pits. I went and visited this one spot where they, where they do a lot of, a lot of this kind of e waste recycling and just burn the cables that all this stuff comes with. So there's these like huge plumes of thick, oily, black toxic smoke coming off of these burn pits, you know, getting into the lungs of everybody nearby, adding to the already incredible pollution of Lagos. And then you got to figure what's happening to those little bits of copper and gold. Well, they're getting put onto container ships, power enormous container ships powered by diesel fuel. They're being shipped halfway around the world to China where they're going to be melted down in an enormous hotel melting smelter furnace. So that's the first problem with recycling, is that it's not, it is not cost free. Second problem is there's no way we can recycle all of the metals that we need. We're not even collecting most of it. In the United States, only about one out of every six mobile phones ends up getting collected for recycling. And even if we could recycle all the metal that we're using, we'd still need more because demand keeps growing, right? We're building more and more of this stuff. There's all the time, there's, there's more of it. There isn't enough metal above the ground already to build all the stuff that we, that we're going to need in the next few years. So recycling helps. Again, I don't want anybody to think it's a bad thing. It is a better approach, but all by itself, it cannot. It's not a solution for the problems that we face.
- [40:47]
Mike Carruthers
What is, what's the solution? If you got to get these metals for progress to continue, you, what's the solution?
- [40:56]
Vince Beiser
Yeah, well, you know, I wish there was just one silver bullet solution, but you know, of course there isn't. It's a huge, complex problem and it's going to require a lot of different kinds of solutions. So recycling is one piece of the puzzle for sure. But much better than recycling is the idea of reusing. I mean, it all goes back really, you know, the most of the answer is in that old slogan from the 70s. Reduce, reuse, recycle. It is truer now than ever. So again, recycling is one part of the puzzle that can help us offset some of the demand for fresh metals. Reusing things or extending the lives of things that we're already using, that is a much more efficient way to get extra mileage out of the metals that are already in circulation. So for instance, there's a lot of our. You've probably had this experience, Mike, like most of us, like your cell phone crack, your cell phone screen cracks or your dust buster, you know, stops working. Maybe you take it to a repair shop of which there are fewer and fewer in this country all the time. And usually what do they tell you? They tell you, eh, it's not worth repairing, you might as well get a new one. So a lot of that. The reason that things are difficult, electronic items are difficult to repair is a deliberate result of the strategy of the companies that make them. They deliberately make these things difficult to repair. It's very hard to get spare parts. It's hard to get the information. Sometimes you even need specialized tools to open them up, like the MacBook that I'm talking to you on. You can't open this thing with a regular screwdriver. You need a special Apple only screwdriver just to open the thing. So there's a push on. There's a thing called the right to repair movement, which is folks all across the country who are pushing for laws to force manufacturers to make their things, their products, easier to repair. And just in the last couple of years, they've actually started to notch up some victories. Massachusetts, California, a couple of other states have recently passed laws to make their things easier to repair. Which is a big step forward, right? Because if we can just keep, you know, if you can get another year or two or three out of your fan, out of your Game Boy controller, well, again, you're reducing the demand for metals.
- [43:14]
Mike Carruthers
So I'm listening to you and thinking, why have I not heard about this before? If this is such a problem, the hunt for all these metals and the damage that's being done, how come I haven't heard this before? Well, let me ask you this. People who may not agree that this is such a big problem, what do they say, the people who disagree that this is this huge problem? What is it they would say?
- [43:42]
Vince Beiser
Nobody. Like, it's a. It's a fact that there are children working in the mines in Congo. Nobody disagrees with that, that people disagree about how many and what we can do about it. Nobody. There's no question that rainforests are being bulldozed to get at nickel in Indonesia. But the counterargument is, well, we need this stuff, right? We. The biggest threat we all face is climate change. In order to get around to stave off that threat, we need to switch over to renewables and we need to get electric cars. What I am saying is, though, that if we continue on the way that we are, if we continue to rely on digging all these metals out of the ground, with all the destruction that entails, we're going to wind up swapping one set of problems for another. And there's no question that we're going to have to do some mining, we are going to have to do some damage to the planet in order to make the transition to renewable energy. No question. But we can do, as I say, there's a lot that we can do to reduce those harms.
- [44:51]
Mike Carruthers
Why do we have to use those metals? It would seem like there would be some sort of synthetic something that could be used instead. What is so special about nickel and cobalt that you can't create in a lab?
- [45:08]
Vince Beiser
First of all, it's a question of volume, right? Anything that you can create in a lab, you have to be able to create on a massive scale. I mean, we're talking about batteries. So let's talk about batteries. So there's lithium ion batteries, is a type of battery that powers. It's in your cell phone, it's in your laptop, and it's in most electric vehicles all over the world. And these are batteries that use mainly lithium, which is a metal, cobalt and nickel. The reason they use those particular ones is that particular chemistry is really energy dense, meaning you can pack A lot of juice into a very small package.
- [45:46]
Annie Zaleski
Right.
- [45:46]
Vince Beiser
If you think about like the big old D size flashlight, flashlight batteries that we used to use, these, these lithium ion batteries can pack much more energy into a much smaller footprint just because of the chemical properties of those elements. Cobalt, nickel, lithium, the ways they interact. And there just isn't. Nobody's come up with a good substitute for those. And there are other chemistries that we can use. There's a type of battery called lithium phosphate battery, which also use lithium, but use iron and phosphate instead of that. Cobalt and nickel, iron and phosphate. There's much more of them around, they're much easier to get. And China electric vehicles in China, many, many, about half of them, half the new ones coming off the line in China right now have these lithium phosphate batteries which are like I say, they look like they have a lower environmental footprint. So that's promising. That's one of the ways in which I really, when I say we can do better, better, that's one of the ways that we, that we might be able to substitute one material for another in order to do less damage. That said, here in North America, people are really concerned about performance, right? One of the big reasons people are nervous about buying an EV is you're worried that it won't be able to get you far enough, that the charge won't last long enough. So the lithium ion batteries, the ones with nickel and cobalt, they've got the most energy density, they'll take you the furthest. So those are the ones they're really pushing here in North America as we.
- [47:21]
Mike Carruthers
Mine this metal and create these new technologies and manufacture this new equipment to have new alternative energies. Are we making a difference? Are we using more and more of it?
- [47:35]
Vince Beiser
International Energy Agency just put out a new report showing that, well, solar power is on track to become the world's number one source of electricity just in the next few years. And wind isn't far behind, mind.
- [47:46]
Mike Carruthers
Wow, that's pretty impressive.
- [47:48]
Vince Beiser
Yeah, no, it's really, that's, that's a piece of it that a lot of folks don't realize is that the energy transition is happening really fast, much faster than most people realize. That's the good news. You know, the bad news is it does come with it with a lot of significant costs. You know, I think to your point that, you know, that a lot of folks maybe haven't heard about this stuff so much is we hear a lot about, about. It's just, it's not as sexy of an issue. Like, I mean, you hear more About, I would say wind turbines killing birds, which does happen, right? Birds fly into these things and they get killed. And that really upsets people because you have a picture of a dead bird. That is one of the downsides of them.
- [48:31]
Mike Carruthers
Well, it seems a lot of this is about education, that people have to understand the problems that you're talking about with these metals, just as they have to get on board with these new technologies of wind and solar and electric cars. And you had said earlier everybody should get an electric car. Well, not everybody wants an electric car, at least not now because the batteries don't hold a charge long enough or the cars are too expensive or people have to want electric cars, they can't be forced to buy them.
- [49:01]
Vince Beiser
I agree with you 100%, Mike. I mean, the reason to get like we're never going to get people to switch over to electric cars by wagging our fingers at them, nor should should we. I mean, they got to be, they've got to be competitive with gas powered cars. I mean, by now, actually they are. I mean, you know, you can go further on it, like new electric vehicles, you can go 3, 400 miles on a single charge. They are more expensive in this country though, which is a problem that I think we can fix. I'll tell you our electric cars. Let me actually take a step back and I'll circle back. This will bring us back to electric cars. But when you ask about, you know, folks who, you know, whether folks are aware of this problem, let me tell you one group of people who are very aware of the problem of the critical metals that we need, and that is the Pentagon, the United States military is very, very aware of the need for these, for these metals. And their concern is basically this, the supply chains for all these metals that we're talking about, lithium, cobalt, nickel, rare earths, they all run through, through China to one extent or another. China really dominates the extraction, the refining, the production of these metals, which by the way, we need not only for renewable energy, but also for many military applications. Right. They're used rare earth metals, which are what EV motors are made out of, are also used in F35 jet fighters, in advanced avionics systems and all kinds of military applications. China overwhelmingly controls the supply of those metals. And they became the. The US really started taking notice of this back in 2010. China and Japan got into a diplomatic spat and China cut off the supply of these rare earth metals to Japan, which needs them for their consumer electronics industry. Sent shockwaves through the world economy and really got American policymakers to sit up and take notice. As a result of that, there was a bunch of congressional hearings and the Pentagon is now pushing very hard to develop non Chinese sources for these materials.
- [51:16]
Mike Carruthers
Well, I really appreciate you explaining all this. As I've said a couple times, I just, I haven't heard a lot about this but it makes a lot of sense. And we are going to need these metals and it's important for people to understand, you know, they've got to come from somewhere and where do they come from and, and what happens if we don't get them. I've been speaking with Vince Beiser. He is an award winning journalist and author of the book Power the Race for the Resources that Will Shape the Future. There's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks Vince. This was very enlightening.
- [51:49]
Vince Beiser
Well listen, I really appreciate you helping me to get the word out about it all.
- [51:57]
Mike Carruthers
Have you blinked late? You see, thanks to electronic media, cases of dry eye are reaching epidemic proportions. Now, it's normal to experience the burning and the dryness associated with dry eyes as we age, but today, much younger age groups are complaining of the same symptoms. You see, we tend not to blink much when we're on the computer or driving or watching TV, and it's taking a toll on our tear duct. Dr. Robert Latkani, who's author of a book called the Dry Eye Remedy, says we all need to take blink breaks twice an hour during screen time. Just shut your eyes for about 10 seconds and roll them around a bit to get them lubricated. Artificial tears can also provide some relief, especially if you keep them in the fridge. And that is something you should know. If you have not yet become a follower of this podcast, I highly recommend it. You can follow something you should know on pretty much any podcast app and that way when new episodes publish, they are delivered right to you. You don't have to come looking for them. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Buffet brawlers, Glory holes gone wrong, Cannibalistic castration cabins, Public poopers. These are just a few of the crazy topics you'll hear covered on. Excuse me, that's a le the pettiest podcast around. Whether you need a break from all that murdery true crime stuff or just enjoy hearing hilarious stories told in a unique way, I got what you need. I'm Leroy Luna, your fearless host chauffeur. So come hop in my minivan and let's go for a ride. I promise you probably won't be disappointed. Excuse me, that's illegal is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, basically everywhere you consume podcasts with new episodes dropping on the 10th, 20th and 30th of the month. Baby There is a fascinating and unique podcast I'd like you to check out as I have it's called Only One in the Room. A few years back, Laura Cathcart Robbins attended a writer's retreat where out of 600 attendees, she was the only black one. So later she wrote about her experience and the article went viral because people understand what it feels like to be the Only One in the room. Only One in the Room is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. I bet you've had that feeling. Listen and you'll hear guests like Hillary Phelps, sister of Olympian Michael Phelps, sharing her story of her secret addiction, former Fox News reporter Christine O'Donnell, who was fired after one of her social media posts was taken out of context. Only One in the Room was named a top podcast by Reader's Digest, the Manual and Bustle magazines. Every week, Laura and her co host Scott Slaughter invites you to join them for an hour and lose yourself in someone's Only One story. Check out Only One in the Room wherever you get your podcasts.