Rachel Plotnick (7:54)

Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

Mike Carruthers (7:55)

So when I first saw this Rachel, I thought, how is this an issue? Because my sense is the reason that my devices are not waterproof or water resistant is they don't need to be. Because it's my responsibility, my personal responsibility to take care of and protect my very expensive and sensitive electronic equipment. That's my job, not the job of the guy who made it.

Rachel Plotnick (8:24)

I think that's a really interesting point, and probably a lot of people feel that way. My intuition is that we've been, though very socialized to feel that way, that it's our problem, it's our fault if it breaks. It's not up to the manufacturer, and we as consumers are the ones who take the blame. But I do think that that's problematic given how important these devices are to our everyday lives. And as you pointed out, how expensive they are to repair.

Mike Carruthers (8:49)

And then what's interesting, as I thought about it more, but isn't it interesting that you don't have to ask too many people? And you will hear a story of phone in the toilet, phone in the hot tub, phone in the pool, phone in the washing machine. So it happens a lot. And so you would think, well, okay, maybe that's a feature that they ought to build into this, if that's possible, because it happens frequently.

Rachel Plotnick (9:15)

Absolutely. Everyone's got that horror story. And I think what always comes along with that horror story is the feelings of panic and freaking out about, oh, my goodness, what am I going to do? And the fact that these things do happen so often points out that we are negotiating this kind of wetness and messiness in our everyday lives all the time. And these devices are our companions now. They really do accompany us to the bathroom and the pool and the laundry room. And so I think it's naive to imagine this kind of total separation between our technologies and these kind of wet experiences of everyday life.

Mike Carruthers (9:50)

And so what's the answer? If you ask the people that make the phones and the devices, why aren't these waterproof? My guess would be because that would cost an awful lot of money. That's not our job. I mean, I don't know what they would say, but has it ever come up and what do they say if it has?

Rachel Plotnick (10:12)

I do think we're seeing some improvements in this regard. Partly it depends on whether you're looking at aftermarket solutions, like various cases or coatings that you can get put on after the fact versus you're buying a product that's water resistant or waterproof. You're right. That cost is often a big factor in these situations. And a lot of times you have to make the product like a smartphone, bulkier or a little bit more difficult to use in order to also waterproof it. So part of it is a logistical issue. The other challenge, I think, is when it comes to really clarifying to people, what's the difference between something being water resistant and waterproof? I think consumers have a lot of confusion about this. Coatings can wear off and degrade over time. And so it's kind of a murky area, I think, between making some design improvements, but also helping to better educate consumers about what their devices can tolerate and what they really can't.

Mike Carruthers (11:04)

What is the difference between something being waterproof and water resistant? I've always felt like, you know, we'll call it water resistant. So if something happens and water gets into it, we didn't say it was waterproof. It's just like we try to keep the water out.

Rachel Plotnick (11:19)

Actually, what's interesting is that in the watch industry, the term waterproof was actually banned in advertising because it was misleading and companies would use it all the time. Oh, sure, it's waterproof. And so the Federal Trade Commission actually did pass some legislation saying companies weren't allowed to use the term waterproof anymore. That's not true across all industries, but I think it is somewhat of a taboo word now in many situations because companies don't want to over promise in terms of what the device can withstand. And even when it comes to thinking about water resistance, it's a really complicated topic. It has a lot to do with how the device is tested. So it might have to be, you know, is it splashed in water? Is it submerged in something? How long is it submerged? Can it tolerate being in soapy water versus, you know, a clean sink? So there are actually quite a bit of nuances when it comes to really what counts as resistance or different kinds of wetness.

Mike Carruthers (12:13)

I also was thinking as, as I saw this because it's such an interesting topic to discuss because, you know, as we said in the beginning, people think, well, that's my job, to make sure it doesn't fall in the toilet. So that's why it isn't. But, but phones are also not fire resistant or heat resistant. In fact, if your phone gets hot, it stops working. And so, I mean, the phone can't be indestructible.

Rachel Plotnick (12:37)

Absolutely not. I think you're right. And you know, we don't want to have unrealistic expectations about our technologies. In the end, everything that we use is fragile. Over time, things corrode, they break, they crack. But on the other hand, I think that the business models of a lot of companies around our devices are not built for durability. They're built for upgrade culture and replacement. Oh, you're going to use this phone for six months, a year, 18 months at the most, and then you'll have to replace it. And so I think that there's a lot of profitability in fragility and things can be built in a way to last longer and work better. But that's not always the primary criteria or, you know, the, the best way to think about durability. That's not what comes to mind first for companies.

Mike Carruthers (13:21)

Well, you know, I'm not one of those people that gets a new phone every time one comes out. I've had my phone for a long time. But I have been amazed how many times I have dropped it, kicked it, whatever, and it works fine. It does seem to some extent pretty indestructible except for the water thing, the fire thing, you know, the extremes. But day to day wear and tear phones seem to be able to handle that pretty well.

Rachel Plotnick (13:52)

It does seem like there's been a lot of improvement in that regard. I think making devices increasingly drop proof and stronger glass is something that they've really worked on over the years. That seems like a significant area of improvement. But if you look at liquids on the other hand, a lot of them, you know you have to purchase this extra accidental damage from handling. It's called ADH policy, where you have to get that extra warranty or insurance if you want to prevent against that kind of damage. And they'll often allow one or two incidents. They're very, very restrictive in terms of whether they'll let you replace the device or get it fixed. And they also have these liquid contact indicators inside the device that can be tripped even sometimes just due to humidity or moisture in the air. Like maybe you took your phone into the bathroom and it happened to be near the shower. So I think as opposed to thinking about cracks and drops and things like that, liquids are still kind of far behind. When we think of the penalties that kind of get assigned to us just for existing in everyday life, we're talking.

Mike Carruthers (14:51)

About why it is our electronic devices are so easily damaged and destroyed by liquids. And my guest is Rachel Plotnick. She's author of a book called License to Spill. Where Dry Devices Meet Liquid Lives. Here is a question that has stumped people for decades and may be stumping you right now. What to get mom for Mother's Day. Flowers, chocolate, new dish towels. I'm going to strongly suggest a much better gift, an Aura frame. Aura is the WI fi connected digital picture frame that showcases your photos and videos. You can add unlimited photos right from your smartphone using the app. We have two of them in our house. It's so much fun to just see those pictures pop up and relive those memories. Not only will mom be grateful that you didn't get her another candle or sweater, she's actually going to love this gift. Aura frames are one of Oprah's favorite things. Plus they have 20,000 five star customer reviews. So instead of all your photos being stored on a hard drive where nobody sees them, now mom can have them displayed all the time. You know, my mom passed away years ago, but we will be seeing pictures of her over Mother's Day. Weekend popping up on our Aura Frames. So come on, get your mom an Aura frame. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com Oraframes promo code something support this show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply and that link is also in the show notes.

Polly (16:45)

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Mike Carruthers (17:17)

So Rachel, we were talking earlier. It does seem to me that everybody has had this happen or knows someone who's lost a device because of dropping it in the toilet or whatever. Are there any statistics as to how many devices or how many people this happens to?

Rachel Plotnick (17:36)

I've seen different ones over time. It's hard to know exactly which numbers are right, but from my research at least, it looks like this is quite a frequent occurrence. If you go online even and just look at different forums from phone manufacturers, I mean, it's pretty much a constant refrain where people are talking about, oh no, I had this liquid mishap. What do I do? How do I fix it? Am I supposed to put this in a bowl of rice? Or, you know, I ended up taking this to the store. They said I got it wet even though I didn't. People are adjudicating this quite often from my estimation.

Mike Carruthers (18:07)

And so what about the rice thing? Because I've heard. At first I heard it was a good thing to do. Then I heard, oh God, don't ever put your phone in rice. And so I don't know, I want. Well, let's start with that question and then I'll go on to my story.

Rachel Plotnick (18:22)

So the rice thing actually isn't a good idea. That's a wives tale. It's not the best way to dry out the phone and in fact can end up doing more harm than good over time. So the best thing to do is power off the phone immediately, take out the battery. If we're thinking about phones specifically, let all the components dry as much as possible. But a lot of times bringing it into a service repair place as quickly as you can, too, is also a better thing to do. But the Rice thing is fascinating to me because I think it's one of those Internet wives tales that just spread like wildfire. And now a lot of people do just assume it's the best thing to do.

Mike Carruthers (18:58)

My sense and my experience, because I once took my phone in my pocket into a hot tub, which I got out of the hot tub and felt my pocket and went, oh, God. And of course it didn't work. And I took it to the place. And my sense is that if your phone is submerged in water, it's never going to work right again. I mean, it's never going to come back to where it was. Maybe it can work again, but it seems like it's always going to be something. Yeah, I dropped it in water, so it doesn't do that thing anymore.

Rachel Plotnick (19:38)

I think that's usually the case. And a lot of times it's not immediate damage that we see. Maybe it does bounce back in the short term, but over time those parts corrode because you can never fully kind of get that moisture out of the device again. It also depends a lot on the type of liquid that we're talking about. You know, if it's in salt water, if it's in the ocean, if there are chemicals in the water, chlorine, all those things are going to have a different impact on the device. And if it's fresh water, and much of the time these liquid resistances are tested only on fresh water. So they don't really take into account the other kinds of things that we're likely to encounter.

Mike Carruthers (20:13)

Are there other situations or other devices that I'm not thinking of that apply to this discussion?

Rachel Plotnick (20:21)

There are actually a huge range of devices, I think, that encounter moisture that we might not necessarily think about. We already mentioned wristwatches, but we can also think about smart watches and particularly fitness devices like Fitbits and Garmins and trackers that people wear. Going to the gym and just encountering sweat on your wrist or your arm. I found so many instances of people talking about exercise and how sweat might interfere with the heart rate sensor or the device would glitch or not work properly. We see a similar kind of wetness around sweat with people who wear VR headsets, which is just a very, very hot device to be wearing on your face. And then there are lots of other examples, just even things like Bluetooth speakers that people take into the shower, AirPods and headphones that people wear, you know, when they're running down the street or taking them to the pool or the beach. So what I found in my research was actually wetness is kind of everywhere. It seems like these are maybe very specific use cases, but people are talking about them all the time.

Mike Carruthers (21:19)

In your research into this, is this a topic that comes up much in the halls of Apple and the other manufacturers of these electronic devices, or is their position more that it's really up to the consumer to take care of these things once they buy them?

Rachel Plotnick (21:38)

That's a great question. I think my sense is that for most of the history of media technology devices, this wasn't a primary concern unless you were designing for people who were deep sea divers or maybe photographers who are going underwater, things like that, Very specific use cases. But more recently, I think particularly around smartphones, it's kind of become an issue that a lot of manufacturers can't ignore now because one, I think over time people have gotten a little bit fed up with their devices breaking so much and not being able to use them in certain situations. And two, we just have so many more expectations that our technologies go wherever we go. And so I think in the last few years, you're beginning to see a lot more of these companies kind of lean into that advertising and that design around these water resistant features. You know, even 10 years ago, it was considered only a kind of niche feature that a few companies would offer and they would primarily be targeted at people like industrial workers, people in construction, outdoorsy, you know, people who fish or who ski or snowmobiles or swimming, things like that. But now it's being recognized that this is a feature that consumers, I think, just widely desire.

Mike Carruthers (22:49)

Well, these devices have become so much a part of our life that when you think about all the times we interact with them, just the law of averages is going to say there's going to be accidents, things are going to go wrong and they're going to break.

Rachel Plotnick (23:05)

Absolutely. And I think that's why we need as much as possible designs that support the way our bodies are. We all fumble, we all get busy, we all make mistakes, Our hands don't always work the way they're supposed to. People have tremors, people have Parkinson's, arthritis. There are so many different reasons as to why we might knock over a cup of coffee or drop something accidentally. And so I think that design needs to kind of adapt to meet the messiness of our bodies and the messiness of our environments, because it shouldn't be so costly just to be A human being that dumps over a cup of coffee.

Mike Carruthers (23:39)

What is it that happens to the phone when it. I mean, as you said, it depends on the liquid. But just with regular fresh water, what is it that it does to the phone that makes it so if it just dries out, it wouldn't. It should work fine. I have, you know, the key fob for my car. I've put it in the wash twice now. Works fine after it get dry. You know, it. It doesn't ruin it. Of course, that's just a key fob. It's not a computer. But still, what is it that happens that is so fatal to the phone?

Rachel Plotnick (24:20)

A lot of it has to do with what parts of the device the liquid gets into and how far it gets in there. You know, so you're dealing with sensitive electronic equipment. You're dealing with chips and lots of connections. And as I mentioned before, that issue of corrosion is a big one. So in the short term, you might not see any issue at all. But metal corrodes very easily from liquid. And as it corrodes over time, you're going to be able to see maybe your phone is just running slow, slower. Maybe it isn't charging as effectively. Basically, those insides are withering over time. And that's one of the real challenging parts about liquids, is that it's not necessarily just that immediate incident. It can be, hey, even three, six, nine months from now, I'm going to see that something's just not working quite right because that corrosion is taking place over time.

Mike Carruthers (25:06)

But you're not suggesting. I don't think you're not suggesting that manufacturers are up to something here, that they're trying to not make them more water resistant so that they can make more money. Or are you?

Rachel Plotnick (25:19)

Well, that's a good question. I think historically it hasn't been a big priority for a lot of companies, and I think that phones that break make more money than phones that work. So is this, you know, a major conspiracy where they're all sitting around in a room saying, yeah, let's make phones that break? Not necessarily, but I do think that some of that fragility and breakability has been built into the business model for a long time. But on the other hand, there are also just. There have been technical limits to what extent we can protect these devices, and I think those are improving over time. One of the newer technologies is nano coating, where you can basically put an invisible film on the phone. It's dunked into this special solution that you can't even see. And that's proven to be very effective at waterproofing phones and other devices, but it still has some limitations. It can kind of degrade over time. We do have oleophobic coatings on our devices. That's what keeps our screens from developing fingerprints and things like that. And that technology has gotten better over time as well. So I think it's a combination of how we understand the business models behind our devices and also prioritizing technical developments in this area and saying, yes, this is a priority for our consumers, and, yes, we want to develop this technology to the best of our ability.

Mike Carruthers (26:35)

Because it does seem that all these products are tested to some extent for durability. They must throw them around and kick them, and, I mean, they must put them through their paces, because as we were talking about before, I mean, my phone's been kicked and hit and dropped and works fine.

Rachel Plotnick (26:54)

Yeah, we actually call this torture testing, which I think is really fascinating. And in my work, I look at how there's all this language around punishing the device and using words like torture and abuse and, as you said, putting it through its paces. It's very interesting to think about the language that we use around testing the devices, because it's almost treating it like a soldier that's going through battle and like, all right, let's see if it can survive. But I think that those are good tests to do. Right. It's certainly important to think about what can the device withstand and what it can. But that language, I think, is problematic because it still kind of implies that there's a taboo around getting your device wet or mucky or dirty, and that only if it's kind of put through this, you know, these torture chambers and abuse systems, will it hold up? Will it have the metal to survive? So I do have a problem with that kind of language, because I think if we want to normalize these different uses and think about life being messy, then we need to stop kind of thinking that we're torturing our phones, necessarily.

Mike Carruthers (27:51)

But it does seem that people. People know going in. It's not like when you drop your phone in the toilet that you're shocked that it doesn't work anymore. I mean, you know, you should have not done that and that you probably shouldn't have brought the phone into the bathroom in the first place. It's not a educational thing. People know that they're fragile to some extent. It's just that life happens, and that's the intersection where things go wrong.

Rachel Plotnick (28:21)

I think that's definitely true. And there's a counter argument to be made, which is pretty interesting, that basically says, hey, fragility is sometimes a good thing because it encourages us to not bring our phone in the bathroom. Some people say, hey, don't make it waterproof because then I can't take it in the shower. And then I have to have my nice, quiet, peaceful shower without worrying about my phone ringing or having to respond to a text message. And in fact, I've seen in a number of movies and things lately, television shows. There are often plots where the device breaks because someone drops it in whatever liquid situation and the person's really relieved. Like, now I get a break from this thing. So there is that flip side to the I think is that sometimes fragility ends up being a way to not be connected to our devices all the time.

Mike Carruthers (29:05)

You know what I like about having this discussion is that for everyone who has had this happen to them, where you've dropped the phone in the toilet or taken it into the pool by accident and it's happened to apparently just about everyone, you feel so foolish, you feel so guilty, and you feel like you're probably the only one that's ever done this. And I love taking this topic out of the shadows. And now we all know we all do it. It's gonna happen. And maybe someday they'll find a way to fix this. Rachel Plotnick has been my guest. She is a historian and cultural theorist, and she is author of a book called License to Spill, Where Dry Devices Meet Liquid Lives. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Rachel, it's always a pleasure. You always have really interesting topics. Thank you.

Rachel Plotnick (29:54)

I appreciate that. It's great to talk with you and thanks again for the opportunity.

Polly (29:59)

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Mike Carruthers (33:09)

You have probably noticed that people tend to talk a lot about how stressed out they are and they don't mean it in a good way. No one says oh I'm so stressed out and boy does that feel fabulous. No. Most of us think of stress as a bad thing, but it appears we may not be thinking about stress in the right way. There is good stress and there is bad stress and the more good stress you can bring into your life, the more it fights the negative effects of the bad Stress, that's according to my guest, Dr. Sharon Bergquist. She's an award winning physician and researcher known for her science based approach to lifestyle medicine. She's contributed to hundreds of news segments including Good Morning America, ABC News and the Wall Street Journal. She has a TED Ed talk about how stress affects you and it has been viewed over 8 million times. She's the author of a book called the Stress why you need stress to live Longer, healthier and happier. Hello Sharon, welcome. Thank you for coming on. Something you should know today.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (34:18)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Mike Carruthers (34:22)

So there seems to be some confusion about what stress is, what it does and all. So can you explain exactly what stress is?

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (34:32)

Well, stress is a medical concept was introduced around 90 years ago by a Hungarian endocrinologist, Hans Selye. And most of the medical research and what we know about stress since that time has been on how stress harms us. And as a result, most people associate stress as something that we need to avoid and drop boundaries around. However, not all stress harms. In fact, there's more recent science called hormesis. It's the science of good stress that is showing us how stress benefits us and it enriches and grows us. And this is going to sound really counterintuitive, but we actually need some of the good stress to build our resilience against the harmful types of stressors that we're trying to avoid. So really with stress, what I emphasize for my patients and the people I work with is that our goal isn't to avoid it or to draw boundaries. It's really to optimize stress.

Mike Carruthers (35:37)

And the difference between those two types of stress, the kind that is harmful and the kind that is not, is what?

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (35:44)

Yeah, that's really a wonderful question. So what differentiates good stress from bad stress are three Ds, the design, the dose and the duration. So by design, there are certain stressors to which our biology has adapted throughout most of our human history. And those are the types that enhance us by dose. Hormetic stressors are mild to moderate and duration, they're generally brief and intermittent. So our biology was designed for these types of mild to moderate intermittent stressors followed by a period of recovery. What we are not adapted for are the chronic stressors that are prolonged and continuous. These are things like relationships that are difficult, job situations that create a ton of uncertainty. So those are the three key features.

Mike Carruthers (36:41)

Doesn't it seem though that as you pointed out, like it could be your job or it could be some event in your life that's causing you stress, but you're creating the stress, not the event. The event is the event. It's how you deal with it.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (36:56)

Yes. How you respond to stress ultimately determines whether that stress is beneficial or harmful. And to take it one extra step, when you are adding these hormetic or these beneficial stressors, they are all deliberate. So you can choose to add good stress, and that can be a way of building your resilience to the types of stress that aren't always controllable or predictable.

Mike Carruthers (37:27)

And the idea of when people talk about, oh, I'm so stressed, or this is so stressful, or, I mean, they're never talking about the good stress they're always talking about or what they perceive to be harmful stress, that this is too much, that I can't deal with this. This is really hard. It isn't like, wow, this is great stress. No one uses that term and says, God, I'm so stressed today and isn't it wonderful?

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (37:52)

And that's because the predominant type of stress in our life is the type that's harmful. And what I hope that people realize is when we take on these deliberate good stressors, we're actually mitigating some of that harm. And when we avoid the good kind, we are reducing our ability to handle the types of stress that we always, you know, talk about as the kind that's weighing us down. So one way to really tell the difference is when we go through the harmful types of stress that are so prevalent, we are left exhausted, depleted, we feel more burnt out. Good stress energizes us, it renews us. And literally at the level of ourselves, we now know that we remodel and reconfigure our body in ways where we are prepared to handle future stress better.

Mike Carruthers (38:47)

So can you take some real life examples? Because we're talking about the stress in response to something going on in life, let's add in the things that are going on so we get real examples rather than talk in the. In the abstract of here's something that happens and here's how you handle it, or maybe how you don't handle it well so we get a better sense of what you're talking about.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (39:13)

If a person is dealing with a type of stress that's weighing them down where they're feeling exhausted and burnt out. For example, if they are in a work situation where they are not getting along with their boss or their team and that's wearing on them, if a person just perseveres in that situation and Feels stuck. That is not a healthy way of saying, hey, stress is good for you. This is not advocating for being tough in situations where stress is harmful. Instead, if we seek situations of stress that are mission driven, that align with our beliefs, or that are generative, where we feel we're contributing to a greater good, that type of stress releases a completely different biochemistry, a different set of neurotransmitters and hormones. So, for example, when it's something that is purpose driven, we release dopamine, which is our reward hormone. When it benefits other people, we release oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. When it's something that brings us joy, we release serotonin. These chemicals and hormones are the trifecta for mitigating cortisol. So it's a way of buffering ourselves from the harm of the stressors that we can't control.

Mike Carruthers (40:37)

But going back to your example of being stuck in a work situation, well, if you're stuck, you're stuck. It seems hard to make that into good stress when you feel horrible.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (40:51)

You can't always avoid some stressors in your life. So in an ideal world, you would be able to change that situation that's creating the chronic stress. But we all know how difficult that is. This is really an alternate way of managing stress. So one tool is to mitigate that chronic stress, or as you've pointed out, to change how you perceive it. Right. There are techniques such as meditation and mindfulness so that we don't just ruminate on these stressors and take them home with us. However, that doesn't work for everybody. So good stress is a different set of tools where you are making yourself stronger in your situation, where you have to cope with these chronic stressors.

Mike Carruthers (41:43)

So it's not a matter of trying to reframe bad stress into good stress. It sounds like you're talking about you're going to have bad stress and you do what you do with that. The trick is to find the good stress because that will help protect you from those bad, stressful things.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (42:00)

Exactly, exactly. So you are mitigating some of that harm. And biochemically in your body, you're building resilience so that you can handle more stress and handle it better. So yes, it's an alternative approach. And it's more than just reframing the stress in your life and simply recognizing that stress can be beneficial and viewing stress as a beneficial rather than harmful event in your life. That alone affects how much cortisol you release in a stress situation, and it reduces the cortisol Release.

Mike Carruthers (42:41)

And so how do you create good stress in your life? I mean, is it the. That's why. I guess what I'm not understanding is like, is it the way you respond to situations or do you go out and seek situations, go get on a roller coaster, because that'll give you good. I mean, I'm not sure how you bring this into your life.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (43:04)

There's psychological stress that can be good stress and then there are physical stressors that can be good stress. So stress in a technical sense is anything that challenges you. So from a psychological perspective, if a stressor aligns with your belief system and if it's mission driven, that is good stress. And it kind of straddles this realm of pushing you outside your comfort zone, but not to the point where it's overwhelming. And it's the equivalent of if you were going on a roller coaster ride, you know that, that you're not going to get injured, but you also have this brief, pleasant stress response. So those are the types psychologically. But what's really fascinating about good stressors is things like plant chemicals called phytochemicals, exercise, particularly high intensity exercise, limiting eating to 12 hours or less and doing most of your eating earlier in the day, heat and cold. These are all physical ways that have beneficial effects on our bodies and make us more resilient down to the level of our cells. And when we make our cells healthier, we make our entire body healthier. Because the same cells that are healthier are in our heart, they're in our muscle, they're in our brain. And when a neuron is healthier, our ability to handle stress is better, our ability to make decisions is better, our mood is better. So you're driving at mental resilience through physical stressors and you can do it vice versa. It's a phenomena we refer to as cross adaptation.

Mike Carruthers (44:57)

So I get that those have health benefits to them, but I guess I'm not seeing how this relates to stress. I just, I see there are health benefits, but how does reducing when I eat related to stress?

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (45:16)

The common thread behind all the things that I just mentioned is that your body perceives them as a form of biological stress. These were the stressors that were inherent in our environment for our ancestors for 2.4 million years. These are the stressors that shaped our genome and our entire physiology. Stress is much more broad than a psychological or emotional response. Stress is also anything that challenges our body and it throws our body out of this natural balance that we call homeostasis. And our body strives really hard to reestablish that balance. With all stressors, you either return to a balance that is better than your starting point, so you build resilience, or a balance that is weaker or lower than your starting point, and you've reduced your resilience. But it's basically because how we view stress is more broad than just a psychological phenomena. And we can use our body, so stressing our body physically as a way to build mental resilience and vice versa. So it's really saying that our heart and our mind, even our spirit, are converging down at the level of ourselves and that we have many ways of managing stress that are far beyond our current techniques.

Mike Carruthers (46:49)

Well, what about the managing of bad stress? Is that something not to concern yourself with, or. I mean, again, it seems like these are too two very different things, good stress and bad stress. You're focused on the good stress, but is there something to managing your bad stress?

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (47:09)

Yes. There's no question that the bad stress or the chronic harmful stressors chip away at our health. I mean, we've published studies on its effect on heart health. There's a plethora of data on that. And to the extent that we can control these bad stressors or even strategically plan for recovery so that we can lower the effects of the chemicals that are released that cause the harm, there's clear benefit to that. That is stress management, really, historically, and that is the common approach. What I hope to bring to light is that we have an alternative approach by adding in the good stress and not just feeling that if we can't control the bad stress, that we don't have any alternative choice. So to put this in a different way, the first half of my career, I would talk and give lectures to people and students and different keynotes about how stress harms. And the biggest feedback I got from people was that they were getting stressed, hearing about the harms of stress. And the key behind that is because some of the situations that create the harmful stress are simply ones that we. We didn't choose. They found us. The good stressors are deliberate. They give us hope. They give us freedom because they are in our control. And the amazing part is that they not only build our resilience at a literal biological level, but the same pathways that build resilience actually make us healthier, and they make us younger, because these mechanisms repair. They do all these housekeeping functions. They regenerate ourselves. So it goes even beyond the conceptual framework of resilience to a biological equivalent of becoming healthier and younger. In the face of stress. So it's reframing our relationship with stress to think about it more broadly. And of course there's merit to reducing the chronic stress. But that is just a lot easier said than done.

Mike Carruthers (49:44)

Isn't that the truth? Is this fairly new research? Because you know, the generally you hear when people talk about being healthy, you know, it's movement, take a walk after dinner. It isn't running up the stairs three times a day, it's much more lighter and fluffier.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (50:04)

Yeah, this is new because the key here is that you want to not just move, but move enough with enough intensity where you are activating a stress response. The stronger the stress, the more your body adapts and becomes resilient. So that, that is the difference. And it's changing some of the messaging, right? Because, for example, we tell people as they get older, oh, you should slow down, down, you should do less. And that is the worst advice we can give people because it actually takes a little bit more of a stimulus for our body to adapt as we get older. And we want to continually grow and regenerate and renew our bodies. And our bodies work through bioplasticity, which is the biological equivalent of use it or lose it. So if you challenge your brain, you grow brain pathways through neuroplasticity, where your brain is sharper. If you challenge your heart through, you know, some level of exercise that really raises your heart rate, you're making your cardiovascular system stronger. If you challenge your muscles. I mean, we all know that if you lift heavier weights, you grow stronger muscles. This happens at every level. And the corollary though is that when we don't, when we do not have enough of this good stress in our life, we become more vulnerable. And that is really why the messaging around these health effects, like you said, the ones that are a little more fluffy now, we need to reintroduce that intensity because that is ultimately what we need to thrive.

Mike Carruthers (51:55)

Lastly, and maybe you've already talked about this, but I want to maybe talk about it in a more concentrated the benefits of the good stress are health benefits and other benefits, but talk specifically about how they mitigate the bad stress.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (52:13)

How they do it is because we have different stress responses. The one we're familiar with is the fight or flight. Everyone describes stress as running from the saber toothed tiger, but that is a very small portion of a larger stress response we have. What happens at the level of our cells is that we repair proteins and DNA. We actually incur 10,000 injuries in our DNA on a given day and our bodies are constantly repairing. We have the ability to recycle old and damaged parts. We have the ability to generate energy in our cells and increase our energy making capacity. So when we experience these good stressors, that is the type of repair and regeneration we are doing so every day. We are all incurring harm and our bodies try to recover from that harm. Especially at nighttime when we're resting and recovering. Good stress activates these mechanisms. And when we are exposing ourselves to adequate amount, we give our bodies a chance to really make up for a lot of the damage. But the fact that we are removing these good stressors in this greater effort to reduce stress in our lives in general, we are reducing our ability to repair and mitigate the everyday harm that's happening from our environment. From pollutants, from smoke, exposure, from pesticides. All the things that we know are probably harming us. And there are many that we don't even know about. So that's what's happening at a cellular level and even at the level of hormones like cortisol. We know that when we expose ourselves to good stress. For example, a high intensity interval workout, you get a spike of cortisol, but what really matters is your baseline or basal level. After the workout, the cortisol level comes below the baseline of where you started. So what is happening is that your basal level. Again, this is what matters for health. In protecting us from the harm of stress, you want your baseline levels of cortisol to come down. Similar with exposure to cold, you get a spike of cortisol, but afterwards your levels are lower. And that's ultimately what we want. So that is how the good stress is protecting us.

Mike Carruthers (54:54)

Well, you know, I've never heard anyone explain stress this way and it certainly has given me a much better understanding of what it is, what it does, and maybe how to even make it work for you. Dr. Sharon Berquist has been my guest. She is an award winning physician and author of the book the stress why you need stress to live longer, healthier and happier. And there is a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Sharon, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for being here.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (55:22)

Thank you so much. I appreciate it so much.

Mike Carruthers (55:29)

The next time you're in that awkward position that we all find ourselves in that you can't remember someone's name, try shifting your eyes from left to right for about 30 seconds. According to a British study, that move, just shifting your eyes left to right can improve your instant recall by engaging both sides of your brain, which activates long and short term memory. Now, if shifting your eyes doesn't work, you could try swinging your arms or rocking back and forth. According to the study, that reduces stress and resets your brain. It also may scare away everybody you're talking to so there would be no need to remember their name. And that is something you should know. You are the secret weapon in keeping this podcast going and growing by telling people you know and suggesting they listen and leaving us a rating and review on whatever platform you're listening on. And you might think, yeah, well, but what's one more listener or what's one more rating and review? Well, you would be surprised. I think you would be amazingly surprised how much difference it does make. And if you had a podcast, I would leave you a rating and review and I'd tell all my friends. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know on his podcast, chasing life. I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent brings you the secrets of the happiest and healthiest people on the planet so that you can live your best life. Are some people just born happier than others? And what might they be doing that.

Rachel Plotnick (57:06)

The rest of us aren't?

Mike Carruthers (57:08)

Follow chasing life with Dr. Sanjay Gupta on Apple, Spotify, Iheart Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:20)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

Mike Carruthers (57:22)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:31)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

Mike Carruthers (57:35)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was misgiving cast in Goodfellas and I don't he's too old.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:41)

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that.

Rachel Plotnick (57:43)

Dune 2 is overrated.

Mike Carruthers (57:44)

It is.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:46)

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk.

Mike Carruthers (57:50)

About good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:54)

Him, we're talking Parasite, the Home Alone.

Mike Carruthers (57:56)

From Grease to the Dark Knight.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (57:58)

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks, we've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look and we've talked about.

Mike Carruthers (58:04)

About horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

Rachel Plotnick (58:07)

So if you love movies like we.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (58:08)

Do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

Mike Carruthers (58:10)

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your.

Dr. Sharon Bergquist (58:12)

Podcasts and don't forget to hit the follow button.