Dacher Keltner (6:29)

It's good to be with you, Mike.

Mike Carruthers (6:31)

So let's start with a definition. What is awe?

Dacher Keltner (6:35)

Awe is an emotion. So it's this mental state that arises when we encounter vast mysteries that we don't understand. So it's a feeling you have most typically when you encounter things that are really vast in terms of size or meaning, and then they're mysterious or Edmund Burke, this philosopher, said they're obscure, we can't make them out with our knowledge structure. So awe animates, you know, acts of creativity and wonder to make sense of the vast mysteries of life.

Mike Carruthers (7:09)

You said it's an emotion. I guess I've never really thought of awe as an emotion, but you would know. You're the expert on awe and emotions. But I've never thought of awe as an emotion.

Dacher Keltner (7:23)

It's a big question. And it turns out, although it seems simple, it's very hard. What is an emotion? Emotions are these brief states that engage your body and your mind that help you do things that are good for you in the world. And so awe indeed is this brief experience that we have in music or encountering people who inspire us or in nature or spirituality that moves our bodies and changes our minds to help us be part of communities and things that are larger than the self.

Mike Carruthers (7:57)

So why do you study awe? I mean, it seems awe is very fleeting. It happens when it happens. When you see something, you see something. I can think of wonderful examples of what I think might be awe. But they come, they go, and so what?

Dacher Keltner (8:13)

You know, I study awe for a couple of different reasons and teach it and help cultivate it in our culture. And you know, one is just as a scientist, an emotion scientist. I've long used the tools of science to understand the human psyche or our minds right in our bodies. And I've studied laughter and love and desire and embarrassment and shame. And here was an emotion, awe, that really hadn't been studied until about 10 or 15 years ago. And then, you know, I am involved in the teaching of human well being and health. And we know from a lot of research that brief positive experiences of laughter and now awe and other emotions like love or Kindness or compassion are really good for you. And in fact, I think there's almost nothing better for a human being for their bodies and minds and relationships than to go out and find a little bit of awe.

Mike Carruthers (9:11)

So give me an example, because we've been talking in the abstract here. Give me an example or two of awe.

Dacher Keltner (9:18)

What we did to understand the concrete nature of awe is we actually, believe it or not, gathered stories of awe from 26 different countries around the world. Radically different countries, right? You know, countries in Africa, Mexico, South America, Poland, China, India, Japan, et cetera. We just said, like, write about an experience, a concrete experience of when you encountered a vast mystery and felt awe. And to your question, Mike, what we found is what we call the eight wonders of life that are concrete pathways to awe. We find awe in encountering the moral beauty of other people, their courage and kindness in nature, in what I call collective effervescence. When we move together, dancing, cheering, a football team in visual things, paintings, visual designs, music, big ideas give people awe, right? Some people, it might be like free markets or evolution and then spirituality and interestingly, the life and death cycle, right? People are blown away by the birth of children. When I teach awe to audiences of people who have individuals who are 55 years old or older, they'll often talk about watching someone pass away as a source of awe. So those eight wonders of moral beauty, nature, collective effervescence, visual stuff, music, ideas, spirituality, life and death, those are where we find awe.

Mike Carruthers (10:54)

So what are the benefits? Specifically the benefits of experiencing awe? Because it would seem to me that the benefits of awe would be just as fleeting as the experience of awe, that maybe it feels good for a moment, but you seem to be hinting that there are much bigger benefits. So what are they?

Dacher Keltner (11:15)

Yeah, Mike, study started to come out about awe that suggested that a brief dose of awe, a brief experience of awe, is about as good for you as almost anything you could do. And these are studies in which someone might, in a lab, watch a nature video or watch a video of Mother Teresa or an inspiring person, and they feel awe. Right? We've studied veterans rafting on a river in under resourced high school kids. There's a lot of research on nature immersion. You go out in nature and find awe. There are studies of what is it like to read stories of awe, which are so powerful and I'll just bullet point it. But you know, what this research shows is a brief dose of awe, even if you plan it and know it's coming, makes you feel less stressed about your Daily life. It gives you a greater sense of well being. It makes you feel like you're more strongly connected to other people and you're part of a community and less lonely. It reduces inflammation in your body, which is very problematic for your physical health. It activates what's called the vagus nerve, this large bundle of nerves. It lowers blood pressure, slows your heart rate down. It gives you an expanded sense of time where you feel like God. All those pressures that I felt, I actually have time to live my life. So I've been teaching happiness for 30 years, gratitude and kindness and mindfulness and all this stuff. And I look at those benefits of awe and I think, wow, that's about as powerful a set of benefits as anything you might cultivate. And I believe, and the science shows this, that it's there for us to enjoy. It's all around us on a walk and listening to people and listening to music, watching a show at night. Find awe. It's very good for you.

Mike Carruthers (13:11)

But are the benefits as fleeting as the awe is like? You get this rush of benefits for a minute, an hour, what?

Dacher Keltner (13:23)

Well, that's one of the limitations of psychological science is we tend to study people just for a couple of minutes or an hour or so forth. And so we don't have rock solid answers to your question. And I think it's one of the most important questions for the field to ask. What I will tell you is we did an AWE study with veterans and high school kids who are from really tough schools. And both of these groups of people are really stressed out two to three times the stress, anxiety, depression, trauma, as an average American citizen, and they went rafting for a day, they felt awe. And what we found is profound benefits that lasted for a week. Right. Our veterans, for example, showed a 30% drop in PTSD, you know, the constant vigilance and anxiety of that kind of condition. So that's not bad. That's a week. We've done other work with healthcare providers showing, you know, an AWE program really reduces anxiety and depression over the course of a month. The next challenge or the next frontier is what you're talking about, which is, wow, if I have this transformative experience, you know, listening to music at a concert, does it last for a year? And I will tell you, it's really interesting. Molly Crockett at Princeton University and her colleagues have been publishing studies about going to music festivals. Makes people more kind and altruistic for a year. Right. So there's this interesting possibility that the benefits of awe actually last years Right. So that we have to figure out.

Mike Carruthers (15:09)

We'Re talking about the power and benefits of experiencing awe. My guest is Dacher Kelter. He is a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley and author of the book the New science of everyday wonder and how it can transform your life. It's time for Black Friday. Dell Technologies biggest sale of the year. That's right, you'll find huge savings on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 plus with Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. From smarter multitasking to extended battery life, these PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you. Plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options. They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you work, play and connect. Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're just finishing up, these PCs and accessories make perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now@dell.com deals and don't miss out. That's Dell.com deals. With the weather getting colder and the holidays upon us, I just want my wardrobe to be easy. Things that look sharp, feel great and last season after season, which is exactly what I get from Quince. I reach for my Quince cashmere sweaters constantly. They're 100% Mongolian cashmere and somehow they're just 50 bucks. Soft, warm and the kind of everyday luxury that doesn't feel overdone. And their denim is another favorite. Great fit, easy to wear and it holds up beautifully. And if you're looking for a holiday gift to give without the big price tag, guilt Quince is perfect for that. Those cashmere sweaters I just mentioned, they make great gifts. And their wool coats, you gotta check them out. They're stylish and durable and their quality is top of the line. It's amazing how many people have found Quince and love it. What I love is how Quintz works directly with ethical factories and top artisans cutting out the middlemen so you get premium quality at half the cost of other high end brands. It's luxury without the markup, which means you can give something nice this season or keep it for yourself. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.comsysk free shipping and 365 day returns quints.comsysk so Dacher, when I think of awe, I think that there has to be an element of surprise in it. That when you feel it. I wasn't expecting that.

Dacher Keltner (18:34)

You know, when we write about, like the mystery that's at the set, the essence of awe, right? Mystery is about catching us off guard, not fitting our expectations, not fitting our knowledge structures, surprising us. Surprise is about unexpected things. And awe is a close relative of surprise. But it's different, right? Surprise is more about everyday things. Awe is about vast things. And it does have this critical property of catching us off guard, astonishing us, sort of not fitting how we ordinarily perceive the world.

Mike Carruthers (19:14)

Can something, do you think, be awesome? Boy, there's an overused word, isn't it?

Dacher Keltner (19:21)

Tell me about it. I know.

Mike Carruthers (19:23)

Can something be awesome more than once?

Dacher Keltner (19:26)

There are certain myths out there about awe, and in fact the opposite is true, which is, with the right mindset, you can feel more intense awe with the same thing over time. You know, people who love the stars or wines or certain artists or a certain musician, the more they know and experience that source of awe, the deeper it tends to get. And we actually proved that in a study where we had people who are 75 years old or older once a week go out and do what we called an aw walk, you know, where they go find some awe on their regular walk in the control condition, they just did their regular vigorous walk. And we found over time, even though, you know you're doing this, I'm going on my awe walk now, you feel more awe and it actually helped people feel less stress over the course of the study.

Mike Carruthers (20:26)

But it would seem to me that you can't force awe if something doesn't inspire awe. I mean, you could go for a walk, an awe walk, and not get awed.

Dacher Keltner (20:37)

I think, Mike, you're pointing out this deep philosophical puzzle about human emotion more generally and then awe more specifically, which is in some sense they do have to surprise you, especially an emotion like awe. They have to. You can't force it. You can't force pleasure, you can't force a laugh. You can laugh, but you can't force the sense of hilarity. And you can't just go find awe, forcing it in any context. But you can open up your mind to it and say, for this time period, I'm just going to allow myself to wander and not be on schedule for this time period, I'm going to not listen to my words that categorize things. And I'm Just going to see what I see. Right. I think there are mental mindsets or orientations that allow us to feel awe in almost any context. And that's what we developed with the AWOK and the instructions, which was, you know, go try somewhere new. Don't have any expectations. Try to keep your mind open. Don't worry about time. Give yourself the chance to wander. And once you do that, you know. And Mike, we have a lot of different studies showing if you find the right context and just relax and open your mind to it, you can feel a lot of awe about a lot of things.

Mike Carruthers (22:04)

But if you feel a lot of awe.

Dacher Keltner (22:08)

Yeah.

Mike Carruthers (22:09)

Then doesn't it become less. It would seem that awe needs to be fairly rare because if you're always awed, then that's just your normal state. So there's nothing awesome about that.

Dacher Keltner (22:21)

Yeah, I mean, that's a. You know, that's another what I would call a misconception of awe, which is that it has to be rare. That's really where its essence is or its power. And in fact, what we find, Mike, we've done this kind of research where it's called daily diary studies, where you ask an individual to report on, at the end of the day whether they felt awe, did they encounter a vast mystery that surprised them. We've done this in China and Japan and Spain and other countries, the United States, Canada and so forth. And what we find is people feel awe two to three times a week. So they. It's not rare. They are feeling awe. You know, every couple of days, they stop in their tracks and like, wow, that sunset's awesome. Or, look at those kids playing in their voices. That's awesome. Or, man, that piece of music that I heard when I was a teenager that. It's so awesome to hear that and to feel my mind be transported back in time. There is a lot of awe around us. And I think one of the misconceptions that I worry about, frankly, is this idea that you need to feel awe. And it kind of is the Instagram idea of like, I've got to have a lot of money, fly on a private jet and land in a resort, you know, on the barrier reef to feel awe. But in fact, it's all around us to enjoy.

Mike Carruthers (23:52)

So I can think of people who seem to unawable, you know, kind of grumpy, cranky. Nothing really, is it. So it seems like, you know, awe only exists if you look for it and are willing to confirm it.

Dacher Keltner (24:11)

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think that's a profound Question, Mike. And, you know, we live in an era in this pandemic era. The pandemic has led to rises in depression and anxiety of 30%. Those hard mental states and conditions make us less able to feel awe and compassion and laughter and gratitude, all the great positive emotions. And I actually was in an unawable or aweless state where I had lost my younger brother. I was in a profound state of grief and unawable. Everything that used to bring me awe, you know, food and people's kindness and nature, I just didn't feel it. And I went in search of awe. I did a lot of the things we're talking about here. I listened to music that mattered to me. I went out in nature a lot. I did some spiritual inquiries and. And so forth. And so, yeah, you know, life can make us unawable, but that's problematic. And we need to develop ways to cultivate this more because I really believe, like Albert Einstein and Jane Goodall and Toni Morrison and Rene Descartes, the philosopher and others, that this emotion of awe is really the most human emotion. It makes us connect to people. It makes us share, it makes us create. And when we're unawable, it's a sign that we really need to change our lives, which is important.

Mike Carruthers (25:55)

So, very specifically, if I were to go out my door on an awe walk, what are the things that I might likely see that I would see awe in?

Dacher Keltner (26:06)

Well, what I would recommend is that you go to the GGIA Berkeley. Edu, where the Greater Good Science center has created a bunch of awe practices that you can cultivate awe right now. Right. Without spending a dime. And one of them's the awe walk. You know, and I do this when I walk to work is like, suddenly, if I allow myself a little. A bit of that openness to awe, suddenly I hear, oh, there's somebody playing music. That really is inspiring. Or I noticed how incredible the leaves, the fall leaves are on the ground that I'm walking on, and that fills me with awe. And the leaves falling to the ground. And then I see a little group of preschoolers who are holding hands, falling down, walking somewhere. So it's just about opening your eyes to what's really inspiring and mysterious about human beings and our.

Mike Carruthers (27:02)

I've often found that when I see other people experiencing awe, that that in itself is kind of Awes.

Dacher Keltner (27:10)

Yeah, yeah. That. You know, your observation, by the way, just gave me goosebumps because it's such a fascinating phenomenon.

Mike Carruthers (27:17)

Well, you know what?

Dacher Keltner (27:18)

And here's.

Mike Carruthers (27:18)

Here's my. I Just saw this the other day and I had just seen that, you know, we were going to talk. And this to me was absolutely pure awe. In its like, just crystal clear, pure form was a YouTube video of this little girl, little tiny girl who obviously had very, very bad eyesight. And she was fussy and crying and her mom put glasses on her for the very first time. And she saw the world the way she's supposed to see the world. And the look on her face was awesome.

Dacher Keltner (27:59)

Yeah. There's another example of. I think it's a. When a young child hears her mom's voice for the first time through hearing devices and you watch it and you can't help but tear up and feel how extraordinary. To your point earlier, these simple things are like a mom's voice that's part of all of life and how awesome it is.

Mike Carruthers (28:24)

So what's the big message here? I mean, obviously you're very into this. What's the takeaway?

Dacher Keltner (28:29)

You want to people to get what I learned. And I think it's going to be one of the really important themes of this awe movement, if you will, is it's really good for us when we're. When we're in the midst of the hardest stuff of life, you know, trauma and depression and the like. Because it. Not only did I see that in the science we've talked about benefiting anxiety, depression, the like, but. But also in my life, you know, that. That this is an emotion that brings out our best in the hardest of times. And not only is there a lot of delight and creativity and imagination that comes out of awe, but there's also a lot of meaning when we're going through tough times.

Mike Carruthers (29:09)

Well, this has been awesome talking about awe, and I've been talking about awe with Dacher Kelter. He is a professor of psychology at the University of California at Berkeley, and the name of his book is Awe the New science of Everyday wonder and how it can transform your life. And there's a link to that book in the show Notes. Thanks, Dacher.

Dacher Keltner (29:31)

Well, thank you, Mike. Thanks for the great questions.

Mike Carruthers (29:34)

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Gloria Mark (33:23)

Thank you.

Mike Carruthers (33:24)

So first, is that true? Is it true that our attention span is shrinking?

Gloria Mark (33:30)

It is true, according to our measurements. I started measuring this back in 2004 and at the time we found that people would spend on average of about two and a half minutes on any screen before switching. Then around 2012, it went down to about 75 seconds and in the last five or six years it's reached roughly a steady state, averaging about 47 seconds on any screen. It's not just my research. Others have done independent studies and they found results that are within a few seconds. So it seems to be a fairly robust result.

Mike Carruthers (34:17)

So we've gone from minutes to seconds in our attention span. Why do you suppose that is?

Gloria Mark (34:23)

Well, there's a lot of reasons. There are of course, notifications, notifications for emails, social media. But there are many, many other reasons as well. For example, it turns out we are just as likely to self interrupt as we are to be interrupted by something external to us like a notification. What do I mean by self interrupt? I mean that a person might be working, you know, let's say you're typing in a Word document and then for no apparent reason, that person suddenly stops and goes and checks social media or checks email or checks their phone, they switch of their own accord. There are social factors that compel us to check social media and Slack and email. And there's also emotional reasons as well. So it's not a simple answer, but.

Mike Carruthers (35:31)

The average is going down.

Gloria Mark (35:33)

The average seems to be going down, although perhaps it's already reached its nadir. This might be the low point, but we don't know.

Mike Carruthers (35:45)

And so is it safe to assume that if that's what's happening with attention span as it relates to screens, that's what's happening to attention span in other areas of life?

Gloria Mark (35:57)

I am an empirical researcher, so I can't make that claim unless I actually study it. So the short answer is we don't know. All I can say is this is what we found when people use their devices, which happens to be a good portion of the day. Let me add this to it, that if you look at how often shot lengths in film and TV change, those have also decreased in length down to an average of about four seconds. And people are on some kind of screen, whether it's their computer, phones, whether they're watching TV or film, roughly about 10 hours a day, people are on their screens a good portion of their day.

Mike Carruthers (36:52)

When I listen to you talk, and I think when most people hear what you're saying, the assumption is that. That this is a bad thing. Is it a bad thing?

Gloria Mark (37:01)

It is a bad thing in the sense that there have been decades of research in the laboratory that shows that when people switch their attention to doing different activities, when they multitask, we know that blood pressure rises. There's a physiological marker that indicates people are stressed. When people are asked subjectively their experience, they report psychological stress. We know that people make more errors when they switch their attention. There have been studies done with physicians and nurses and pilots, and we know that people make errors when they're switching their attention. So I would say it's a bad thing. My research also shows that there is a correlation with frequency of switching your attention and stress. The faster the shifting, the higher is the stress as measured by heart rate monitors.

Mike Carruthers (38:13)

In your research, when you watch people, as you were describing, working on a Word document, and then all of a sudden, right in the middle, for no apparent reason, they go check social media. And you ask them why they did that, what do they say?

Gloria Mark (38:28)

Oh, there, there are a lot of reasons. People can be bored. People might find that the task they're working on is just too hard. People have some memory that they. Or a curiosity that they want to satisfy. They. They have this impulse, this urge that they. They need to check. It's hard to, you know, contain that impulse. Sometimes people do it to take a break. So there are lots of reasons.

Mike Carruthers (39:03)

But attention span, When I think of attention span, I don't think of it as necessarily just one thing because I can be easily distracted, but, boy, I can also look laser focus when I have to. And those seem like very different things to me.

Gloria Mark (39:18)

Yes. And remember, we're talking about averages, and if we talk about the median, that might be a better way to think about it. The median is the midpoint of our observations, and the median is 40 seconds. That means half of all of our observations showed attention spans to be less than 40 seconds, but half of them were longer than 40 seconds. So sometimes, yes, sometimes people can focus for longer periods of time. But, you know, half the time we're seeing this kind of rapid shifting, and, you know, it averages out to be 47 seconds.

Mike Carruthers (40:02)

Well, you know what I wonder is when it is time to focus for a longer period of time, does the fact that you're not focusing for a longer period of time Much of the time. Make it harder to focus when it is time, I believe.

Gloria Mark (40:19)

So I can actually give you an example. So we looked at the data of when people were externally interrupted. That means you're interrupted by something outside of yourself, like a notification, a phone call. We also looked at the data. When people self interrupted, they're interrupting themselves. We looked at the data on an hourly basis and we found that when the external interruptions decreased, when they declined, the internal interruptions began to increase. So if you're not getting interrupted by some something outside of yourself, you begin to interrupt yourself. And this suggests to me that people are conditioned to interrupt themselves. They're conditioned to have short attention spans.

Mike Carruthers (41:15)

When people are distracted, they know they're distracted. I know when I'm having a day where I'm having a lot of distractions and I find it frustrating. Sometimes people must have a sense that this is a problem.

Gloria Mark (41:28)

We do find a relationship, a correlation. The more that people switch their attention, the lower is their self assessed productivity for that day. We haven't talked about email, but email is really one of the biggest factors for interruptions, whether it's externally or whether you interrupt yourself. And we also find a correlation. The more time spent on email, the lower a person assesses their productivity for that day. From a practical standpoint, every time you switch your attention, you incur what's called a switch cost. And this is literally the amount of time that it takes for you to reorient and get back on track to this new task or activity that you're switching to. And so when we think in terms of productivity, you can add up all these switch costs and that's time lost.

Mike Carruthers (42:37)

I wonder if people sometimes think that this kind of distraction is helpful. And so here's an example. So you're sitting at your desk and you're doing something and you're not feeling like you're being particularly productive, so you go play solitaire, because maybe that'll, you know, distract you and a bright idea will pop into your head. Is that some of the reasoning that people do this or it's just much more unconscious than that.

Gloria Mark (43:04)

There are a lot of reasons why people do these kinds of simple activities. And I actually argue that doing these kinds of simple but engaging activities can actually be beneficial for us if we do them strategically. And here's what I mean by that. There's a common narrative that we should try to have sustained focus as much as possible throughout the day, because that's when we can be most productive. But we can't hold Sustained focus for a long time. In the same way that we can't lift one weights for an extended period without getting exhausted.

Dacher Keltner (43:45)

Right.

Gloria Mark (43:46)

We have limited attentional resources and these can drain. They drain when we're being focused on something, doing hard work, being challenged, exerting mental effort. And so it's important to step back and take a break and replenish these resources. And, and one way we can do that is by doing these kinds of simple activities because they keep our minds engaged, lightly engaged, like playing solitaire. And there's really very little mental effort. And so it gives you a chance to just replenish and step back. And you know, when you step back and you do something that's not requiring much mental effort, but yet it's engaging, it actually provides solids for people and actually makes people happy. And we found that in our research.

Mike Carruthers (44:49)

When you study people and look at how distractible they are and how much they switch from one thing to another, do they recognize it? Like do they, when you tell them, you know, this is what you did, they go wow, I had no idea. Or is it, yeah, I know that.

Gloria Mark (45:08)

I think that most people do recognize that they do. They may not recognize that they're switching as fast as they think they are. I certainly didn't, at least for myself when I first started studying this. But I think most people are quite self aware that they are switching their attention and you know, and they talk about it and I think most people actually want to do something about it. They don't want to be switching as much as they do, but I think they're quite self aware that they do.

Mike Carruthers (45:50)

Yet they could turn off notifications, they could turn off their phone, they could, they could make it easier to not be distracted pretty simply. And yet they don't.

Gloria Mark (46:02)

Sure. And a lot of people do turn off notifications, but that doesn't solve the problem that people are just as likely to self interrupt as to be interrupted by something like a notification. There are these internal urges inside of us that, that compel us to change screens, to go to social media, to work on a different task. Even that's something that turning off notifications doesn't solve.

Mike Carruthers (46:33)

So is this an issue that can be addressed or is this just something that's kind of interesting to watch as our attention spans shrink and we'll see what happens?

Gloria Mark (46:44)

You know, I'm very much influenced by the work of a very famous social psychologist, Albert Bandura, who was very interested in studying how to help people achieve self efficacy in their behavior. So he helped people with you know, stopping smoking, stopping substance abuse. And I think that we can draw on his work to help people control their attention behavior. Bandura talks about becoming more intentional. You know, during the pandemic, I took a course in mindfulness, and it occurred to me that we could practice a similar kind of behavior when we're using our devices. And I call this meta awareness, which means being aware of the actions you're doing as it's unfolding. And the idea here is to probe yourself and observe yourself and try to understand the reasons why you, why you have urges to say, go to social media or check your email. And you can ask yourself, why are you doing this? Are you bored? Is the task too hard? And once you start to understand these reasons, it gives you a tool to be able to do something about it. And so I practice this on myself and I ask myself, okay, if I have an urge to go to social media, will I really get value from it? I'll give you another quick example. The idea of practicing forethought, and what that means is imagining how our current actions will impact our lives later in the future. And I think the best time frame is to think later in the day. So if I go and read the news, and I am a news junkie, and if I end up spending a half hour reading the news, what's my life going to be like at 10pm? Right. If I have a deadline today to work on, am I still going to be up working on that deadline? Or would I be able to watch a show, read a book, relax, have a glass of wine? And so practicing forethought is also really good exercise.

Mike Carruthers (49:18)

I imagine, though, that people could convince themselves, well, the reason I need to check the weather is because, you know, I need to check the weather and whoa, I gotta check my bank balance. Because I really need to check my bank balance. Well, maybe, but maybe not. Maybe you don't need to. Maybe you're just trying to convince yourself you need to.

Gloria Mark (49:39)

Right? You really don't need to do any of those things. However, why not do them at the beginning of the day? Right? So we find that it takes people a period of time to ramp up, to get into a state of focus. So do all these things at the beginning of the day, get them out of the way. There is this researcher over a hundred years ago, her name was Bluma Zeigarnik, and she found that when people have something unfinished, like an unfinished task, it stays in their mind and they, they can't get it out of their mind. And so checking your bank balance, do it at the beginning of the day, get it out of your mind, otherwise it nags you, it stays with you and it could be a source of self interruption.

Mike Carruthers (50:30)

But there's also that, that recommendation and we've talked about it, we've had people on talking about it here. You know, don't check your email first thing. That that's a waste of your, you know, resources. You're probably best in the morning and you're wasting it on email. Check it and see. I could no more wait until 10 o' clock to check my email. Then I could fly to the moon. I'll do what you're talking about. I'll be wondering what I'm not seeing.

Gloria Mark (50:58)

Let me mention another result. We found that people actually have rhythms for when they're focused. So there are certain times of the day when people are at their peak in focus. For most people it's usually mid morning, late morning and also mid afternoon. And for most people that we studied, they don't start their day with peak focus. They have to ramp up. And so doing some of these rote activities or doing things to get them off your mental plate so you don't think about them is not a bad idea.

Mike Carruthers (51:40)

You know, I bet there are things that we, I know I do this. Distract yourself because you think these distractions are actually important and maybe they seem important in the moment, but in the big picture maybe not so important.

Gloria Mark (51:56)

You know, you could do an experiment with yourself. So check your email first thing in the morning and then check it again at the very end of the day, nothing in between, and see how many problems have been taken care of. So things that seemed of utmost urgency. You know, maybe you go back and look at your emails and at 11 o' clock someone had this pressing problem. And then when you check it again at say 5 o', clock, you see, oh, the problem was solved. And check your email in reverse chronological order and then you'll see exactly how many problems have already been solved. So I think you're right. What seems to be urgent at the moment can be taken care of with time.

Mike Carruthers (52:46)

Well, I know for myself that when I'm switching screens or checking Facebook or email or whatever, a lot of the time it's just mindless. I'm not really thinking about it so much, I'm just doing it and listening to you. It seems clear that maybe being a little more intentional about what you're doing can help you stop wasting time time and instead focus better on what needs to be done. I've been speaking with Gloria Mark. She's a psychologist and professor at the University of California at Irvine and author of the book Attention Span, A Groundbreaking Way to Restore Balance, Happiness and Productivity. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Gloria. This was fun.

Gloria Mark (53:28)

Thanks so much, Mike. I really enjoyed this.

Mike Carruthers (53:34)

The color of the mug or bowl or plate can actually make whatever you're eating or drinking taste sweeter or saltier. Research in the journal Perception found that people who ate cookies or cake made with less sugar served on a red plate rated them just as sweet as the sweeter version on another plate. Vanessa Harrer, who's author of the study, explains that our brains associate red with sweet ripening fruit and food or beverages surrounded by red taste richer and more luscious. The same trick works with blue plates and salt. Volunteers were convinced that popcorn served in a blue bowl had more salt than there actually was, and the popcorn in the red bowl tasted sweeter to them. And that is something you should know. Hey, how about leaving us a rating or review? It's easy to do and it really does help us. So whether you listen on Apple podcasts or whatever platform, if they have a way to leave a rating and review, which most of them do, please leave us one. I'm Mike, her brothers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. The Infinite Monkey Cage returns imminently.

Dacher Keltner (54:47)

I am Robert Ince and I'm sat next to Brian Co, who has so.

Mike Carruthers (54:50)

Much to tell you about what's on.

Dacher Keltner (54:51)

The new series, primarily eels and what else. It was fascinating though.

Gloria Mark (54:55)

The eels.

Mike Carruthers (54:56)

But we're not just doing eels, are we?

Dacher Keltner (54:58)

We're doing a bit with brain, computer interfaces, timekeeping, fusion, monkey business, cloud science.

Gloria Mark (55:03)

Of the North Pole, and eels.

Dacher Keltner (55:05)

Did I mention the eels?

Mike Carruthers (55:06)

Is this ever since you bought that.

Dacher Keltner (55:07)

Timeshare underneath the Sargasso sea? Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Gloria Mark (55:15)

Oh, the Regency era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place or the time when Jane Austen wrote her books, but the Regency era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast, and our Regency Era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcast.