Podcast Summary: When Maps Go Wrong & The Science of Everyday Courage

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests:

• Jay Foreman: Co-host of YouTube’s "Map Men", author of This Way: When Maps Go Wrong and Why It Matters
• Ranjay Gulati: Harvard Business School professor, author of How to Be: The Surprising Science of Everyday Courage
  Date: November 6, 2025

Overview

This episode explores two seemingly unrelated but fascinating topics: the surprising inaccuracies and historical quirks of maps, and the psychology and science behind everyday courage. Jay Foreman reveals how maps have shaped—and sometimes misled—our understanding of the world, while Ranjay Gulati discusses the real nature of courage and how ordinary people can act boldly despite fear.

1. The Quirky, Flawed, and Fascinating History of Maps

With Jay Foreman (Map Men & Author)

A. Why Maps Aren’t Always Accurate

• Origin as Art, not Tools: Early maps were not made to aid navigation, but as decorative objects reflecting what rulers “owned.”
• Quote:

  "For the majority of civilization, accuracy was not the main priority in maps. Maps that circulated for many hundreds of years were primarily works of art to go in the monarch's office just so they could see what they were king of." (Jay Foreman, 06:25)

• Scientific accuracy is a relatively modern expectation for maps.

B. Oldest Known Map

• The oldest known map is a clay tablet from Babylon, c. 9,000 BC.

  "It was a sort of clay rectangle with some triangles scratched into it. But they worked out after a good long stare that it was supposed to be a map of the world." (Jay Foreman, 06:54)

C. Why All Maps Distort Reality

• A “perfect” map would be 1:1 scale and unusable.

• Usability often means sacrificing accuracy—for example, subway maps like London's, which are geographically inaccurate but practically revolutionary.

  "A map, by definition, has to distort the world in some way...If the map's job is to make something easy to understand and easy to read, then it has to make important decisions about what detail to leave out." (Jay Foreman, 07:59)

D. Copyright Traps: Invented Places and Deliberate Errors

• Mapmakers like Rand McNally inserted fictitious places (“paper towns”) to catch copiers.
• Famous example: Agloe, NY, became real when someone opened a store at its supposed location.
• Quote:

  "Agloe, which originally started out as a paper town, just a copyright trap, it became a real place..." (Jay Foreman, 09:17)

E. Modern Map Inaccuracies and Missing Places

• Many assume that modern maps are error-free; not so. Common issues:
  • Copyright traps (deliberate errors).
  • Human mistakes (e.g., misplacing Hong Kong).
  • Countries missing from maps: New Zealand is most famous, but Iceland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, and even Antarctica often disappear.
  • Sometimes maps may be wrong on news to provoke engagement.
• Quote:

  "There's a Reddit thread called Maps Without New Zealand...It happens rather a lot." (Jay Foreman, 11:14) "I think the reason that we hear so much about New Zealand going missing...is because when New Zealand goes missing, it's the funniest." (Jay Foreman, 13:00)

F. When Maps Change the World—Literally

• Borders have been determined by arbitrary lines drawn on maps, rather than on-the-ground reality.
  • Example: 49th Parallel (US-Canada border), creating quirks like Point Roberts, WA.
  • Example: Northwest Angle, MN.

  "They drew the line first, and the map became the border between the two before the actual world itself had the border imposed onto it." (Jay Foreman, 14:31)

G. The Impact of GPS and Navigation Technology

• Modern navigation aids are highly accurate but at a cost—deterioration of spatial skills and hippocampal exercise.

  • Studies: London taxi drivers’ hippocampus larger due to map memorization; GPS users’ brains less engaged.

  "The rise of GPS is likely contributing to an epidemic in Alzheimer's..." (Jay Foreman, 20:08)

• Navigation apps might “experiment” by routing users differently to collect data; odd routes sometimes outperform app suggestions.

H. Digital Maps: Mistakes and Controversies

• Even Google Maps propagated non-existent “Sandy Island” until 2012, tracing back to Captain Cook’s mistaken sighting.

• The global Mercator projection is controversial for distorting the size of equatorial regions (making, e.g., Greenland look as big as Africa).

  "The African Union... has put out a statement that they wish for most world maps to be changed because most world maps are using an old fashioned projection method. The Mercator projection, which famously is accurate for shape, but not very accurate for scale." (Jay Foreman, 26:02)

• This projection is now considered by some as a "colonialist" representation.

Key Map-related Quotes & Moments

• On map distortions and projections (26:02):

  "Taking a round earth and making a flat map of it is impossible to do without some kind of distortion. You have to either stretch bits or squash bits, or slice bits."

• On missing New Zealand (13:00):

  "New Zealand goes missing from maps a lot, but then again, so do plenty of other places..."

• On artificial map towns (09:17):

  "There was a spectacular story from the 50s of Rand McNally inventing a town specifically for the purpose of avoiding somebody copying their map."

Segment Timestamps

• 05:26 — Introduction to map history (Jay Foreman interview begins)
• 09:05 — Map business & copyright traps
• 11:14 — Accuracy of modern maps, errors, and missing countries
• 14:31 — How maps change real-world borders
• 20:08 — Rise of GPS and its cognitive implications
• 24:12 — Famous recent map errors (Sandy Island)
• 26:02 — Map projections and global controversy (Mercator projection)

2. The Science of Everyday Courage

With Ranjay Gulati (Harvard Business School Author)

A. Courage Isn’t Fearlessness

• Courage is not acting without fear; it's action despite fear.

  "Most of us are not fearless. Courage is being able to take action in the face of fear." (Ranjay Gulati, 31:47)

• Fear is a normal, programmed emotion, originating in the brain’s primitive regions.

B. The Role of Self-Talk

• Internal narratives—what we tell ourselves—can empower or inhibit courageous behavior.

  "We all have a narrative that we tell ourselves about ourselves. This is who I am, this is what I'm capable of doing. And this inner voice can be a powerful enabler. It can also be a powerful disabler." (Ranjay Gulati, 32:31)

• Notable Story: Gulati recounts his mother’s confrontation with an armed man in India, slapping him and demanding he leave. Despite fear, she acted, illustrating courage as “action in the face of fear.” (See 33:00–36:00)

C. Biology and Origins of Fear

• Fear stems from uncertainty, not just risk.

  "Fear is a primal survival, human emotion. It's hardwired in the brain, in the amygdala, in the primitive brain, and it originates from what is called uncertainty." (Ranjay Gulati, 37:59)

D. Most Courage is Learned, Not Innate

• Gulati’s research: Most courageous people learned strategies to handle fear and take action.

• Examples:

  • Brandon Tsay, who disarmed a gunman despite initial terror because he felt responsible for his family’s dance hall. (39:58)
  • Whistleblower Frances Haugen—courage didn’t lead to a good personal outcome, but was still morally necessary.

• Quote (Mandela, 45:14):

  "I thought courage is the absence of fear. I've discovered courage is conquering fear. It's taking action in the face of fear. It's looking fear in the eye and still choosing to do something." (Ranjay Gulati, 45:14)

E. Courage vs Recklessness

• Courage involves intention and awareness; recklessness is acting without regard for risk.

  "There's a distinction between courage and reckless. So courageous doesn't mean reckless... you're taking action within means and within limits." (Ranjay Gulati, 42:37)

F. The Link Between Courage and Confidence

• Two types of self-efficacy:
  • Domain-specific: Mastery of a particular skill (e.g., pilots, athletes).
  • Generalized: A can-do belief applicable across situations.

  "There are two aspects to confidence. One is domain specific efficacy. ... But there's a second kind of efficacy, which is the generalized can do efficacy. I got it. I can do it." (Ranjay Gulati, 45:41)

G. Fear’s Role: Why It Paralyzes

• We are more attuned to the pain of loss (loss avoidance) than the pleasure of gains.

• Quote:

  "The pain of losing is greater than the pleasure of winning." (Ranjay Gulati, 47:40)

• Fear and uncertainty cause us to focus on worst-case scenarios, activating caution and muscle tension, which can be detrimental (explained through sports analogies).

Key Courage-related Quotes & Moments

• On fear vs courage (31:47):

  "Courage is not the absence of fear...Courage is taking action in the face of fear."

• Mandela on courage (45:14):

  "I thought courage is the absence of fear. I've discovered courage is conquering fear..."

• Self-talk and identity (32:31):

  "We all have a narrative...this inner voice can be a powerful enabler. It can also be a powerful disabler."

Segment Timestamps

• 31:31 — Courage myths and definitions (Ranjay Gulati interview begins)
• 32:31 — The power of self-talk; personal story of courageous action
• 37:59 — Where fear originates; role of uncertainty
• 39:56 — Courage: can it be learned?
• 42:24 — Courage vs recklessness; real consequences of being brave
• 45:41 — The relationship between courage and confidence
• 47:40 — The undeniable power of loss aversion and fear

3. Short Interesting Details

• Why Zippers Almost Never Fail:
  YKK zippers, manufactured by Japan's Yoshida Manufacturing Corp. (since 1934), dominate the globe due to their unmatched reliability and quality.

  "YKK zippers are so ubiquitous that it would be hard to find a household anywhere on the planet that doesn't have at least one YKK zipper somewhere inside." (Mike Carruthers, 50:35)

Memorable Quotes Recap

1. Jay Foreman on Map Inaccuracies (07:59):
   "A map, by definition, has to distort the world in some way...If the map's job is to make something easy to understand and easy to read, then it has to make important decisions about what detail to leave out."
2. Jay Foreman on “Maps Without New Zealand” (13:00):
   "New Zealand goes missing from maps a lot, but then again, so do plenty of other places..."
3. Ranjay Gulati on Courage and Fear (31:47):
   "Courage is not the absence of fear...Courage is taking action in the face of fear."
4. Nelson Mandela on Courage, quoted by Gulati (45:14):
   "I thought courage is the absence of fear. I've discovered courage is conquering fear. It's taking action in the face of fear."

Listener Takeaways

• On Maps: Every map distorts reality in some way; even modern maps include purposeful errors or omissions. Knowing this helps us better interpret the information maps provide—and not to take every visual representation at face value.
• On Courage: Fear is universal, but courageous actions are less about being naturally bold and more about the stories we tell ourselves and the strategies we use to manage fear. Courage can be learned, practiced, and developed—both individually and collectively.