C (5:26)

Thank you so much for having me.

B (5:28)

So one thing I've always wondered about maps is you can look at a map from 150 years ago, pre flight, before there were airplanes. How could they draw a map that was. It may not be perfectly accurate, but more or less had the right shape to it. How could they do that if they couldn't see from high up?

C (5:52)

Well, it's really spectacular. It depends how far back in history you go, because if you go back a thousand years to the first ptolemic maps, they were the first maps that were attempting to be accurate, but without any of the kind of technology or data that we have now. And it was mostly just guesswork, just sort of walking around and doing the best straight lines possible. But it's when they started to use trigonometry, when they started to use instruments that can very, very accurately measure angles towards points a long distance away, that you can start to build up an accurate ma. And it's important to remember that for the majority of civilization, accuracy was not the main priority in maps. Maps that circulated for many hundreds of years were primarily works of art to go in the monarch's office just so they could see what they were king of. And they were decorative. And it's only really quite recently that maps have become a scientific tool. But what it goes to show is just what an amazing job these people did hundreds of years ago, how much harder it was, and how we take it for granted.

B (6:47)

So here's something I'm sure you would know. How old is the oldest map that's ever been found?

C (6:54)

The very first map that we know of was a map of Babylon, which is from about 9,000 BC. And it took quite a long time for archaeologists to work out that it actually was a map they were looking at, because I think map is quite a generous term for it. It was a sort of clay rectangle with some triangles scratched into it. But they worked out after a good long stare that it was supposed to be a map of the world. And that is the earliest one that we know about.

B (7:19)

Well, that's gotta be interesting to see. I mean, when you think about the level of knowledge people had back then, when they draw a map of the world, it is theoretically what they think the world looks like.

C (7:33)

Yeah. So there's rather a lot missing from that map. That's why it took them such a long time to work out that it was supposed to be a world map.

E (7:39)

As you said a moment ago, you know, maps were not originally meant to be accurate, and they don't really have to be accurate in this sense. I've written drawn out maps for people back in the old days, before gps, and they were far from accurate, but they did the job well.

C (7:59)

Exactly. I mean, the only map, if you think about it, the only map that could possibly be truly accurate is a map that's of a scale of one to one and includes every single possible detail. And that's a very limited use. A map, by definition, has to distort the world in some way. If the map's job is to make something easy to understand and easy to read, then it has to make important decisions about what detail to leave out. And probably the best examples of these are metro maps. Maps of train and bus systems around the world. So one of the most famous is the London Underground. It was designed in 1932 by an engineer called Harry Beck. And what he famously did was he decided to completely do away with the concept of scale. And his map showed simply where the stations were in what order, where the changes were between lines. And what you ended up with was something that looked more like a circuit diagram. As far as accuracy goes, it's absolutely dreadful. But as far as it being useful for knowing where to get your train, it was revolutionary. And that's just one extreme example. But really, every single map you look at does exactly the same thing and it has to do some kind of distortion.

B (9:05)

So who makes the maps? Are there big players? Have there been big players in the map making business? You know, when I went to school, I remember maps in the classroom that were. They were all made by Rand McNally.

C (9:17)

They were. So in the US throughout most of the 20th century, there were three major companies that did the vast majority of maps in the US and one of them was Rand McNally. The other one was general drafting. The third one, I actually can't remember right now what the third one's called, but there was. Not only did they have a. I suppose the word is triopoly on the maps produced in the us, but there was a massive rivalry between them as well. And the fascinating story about how one was very nearly caught copying the other, and it caused all sorts of hilarious consequences. This is one of the things that we found when we were researching our book, is that there was a spectacular story from the 50s of Rand McNally inventing a town specifically for the purpose of avoiding somebody copying their map. But what happened was somebody else saw this fake town that was called Agloe, built a store on the site where there was nothing there, and seeing on the map that there was this place apparently called Agloe, they decided to name it the Agloe General Store. And as a result, Agloe, which originally started out as a paper town, just a copyright trap, it became a real place and therefore the case was thrown out of court and couldn't be used. So, yeah, there were major players and there was massive rivalry between them.

B (10:34)

And that's just in the us so where is Agloe?

C (10:39)

So Agloe. Well, it's actually an absolute nothing. There's nothing there. But it's supposed to be in New York State, in the Catskill Mountains, very close to the border between Delaware county and one of the other counties that borders Delaware County.

E (10:52)

My assumption is, and I think most people's assumption is that maps today, if you see a map on TV or you see a map in a book that's reporting itself to represent something, it's probably accurate. That maps today, they've figured it out and all maps are accurate. If they've been made in the last.

C (11:14)

30 years, that's only slightly true. It's very easy to think that of course a map should be accurate because these days it's made with satellites and it's made to be as accurate as possible, otherwise it doesn't do its job. But there's a couple of things to watch out for, and one of them is something I mentioned earlier, copyright traps, where map designers will deliberately, and almost all maps can do this, they will deliberately have a wrong detail, which causes no trouble to the map user, but big trouble to someone who tries to copy it to make their own map. And examples of this include making a squiggly road slightly more squiggly, or spelling the name of a town wrong. Or just like in the case of Agloe, making up a town that isn't there. So that's one thing to look out for for accuracy, and the other one is good old fashioned human error, which is all over maps. And if you know where to look, you'll find them, especially on TV news networks. There are lots of great stories of maps on the news that show this is where Hong Kong is and they've got a great big map of Brazil where they've labeled Hong Kong, where Rio de Niro should be. It happens a lot. Well, the interesting thing is that map mistakes, they often do very, very well online and on social media. There's a whole phenomenon, there's a Reddit thread called Maps Without New Zealand, which is people across the world collecting every time they see an example of a world map where New Zealand is strangely missing. And it happens rather a lot. And no matter where you post a map, if you post a map that's wrong, if it contains anything, such as a spelling mistake or a city in the wrong place, people love to get involved and to respond and to, you know, to get angry about it being in the wrong place. And you could even argue there might be some news networks that potentially getting their maps wrong on purpose in order to generate clicks. It's not impossible.

E (12:54)

But why New Zealand? Why are there so many maps of not New Zealand?

C (13:00)

Well, that's interesting because New Zealand goes missing from maps a lot, but then again, so do plenty of other places. So nations that go missing as well as New Zealand all the time include Iceland, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, the Caribbean, and a lot of maps. Forget Antarctica completely. I think the reason that we hear so much about New Zealand going missing, and I think the reason that there's a Reddit thread with far more views dedicated to maps without New Zealand than maps without Navaya Zemlya is because when New Zealand goes missing, it's the funniest. Partly because it's quite large and it's a comparatively easy game of spot the difference when it's not there. Partly because they speak English and partly because they've made it their own. The government website has it. They've also New Zealand tourism produced this series of genuinely funny videos all about the great conspiracy to remove New Zealand. So that's why we see so much about it. And I think the reason it happened so much in the first place is because it's in the bottom corner. So it's very easy to accidentally crop and forget it's there.

B (14:01)

So maps represent what's there. But do maps, when people see them, ever inspire change in the landscape? And here, in other words, for example, the border between Connecticut and Massachusetts, there's this little notch where Massachusetts dips down into Connecticut, or it's the other way around. But was that the result of somebody seeing the map and going, hey, we need to change that or something?

C (14:31)

The answer is absolutely yes. This sort of thing happens all the time, and it specifically happens in North America. There was a famous case where after the Treaty of Paris, they were trying to draw the border between what would eventually become the US And Canada. And what they decided to do was, let's just stick to the 49th parallel. And it's supposed to continue from east to west in a unwavering dead straight line. But of course, what happened was most of that continent wasn't really known to the mapmakers at that time. There was rather a lot of guesswork going on. So they drew the line first, and the map became the border between the two before the actual world itself had the border imposed onto it. And as a result, they found all sorts of things that if they'd had an accurate map in the first place, or if they'd gone out to look in the first place, they never would have chosen a dead straight line on the 49th parallel. So there are two big examples. One of them is Point Roberts, which is in. Was supposed to be in British Columbia in Canada, but it's actually in the US It's a peninsula that behaves like an island because you can only get there from the US by boat or by driving through Canada and having your passport checked twice. So all the American citizens that live in Point Roberts, if they want to go to their nearest high school, they had to drive through Canada and back again, effectively using their passport four times a day. And there's another one as well. There's the Angle Inlet, which is the same thing, but closer to the East Coast. And that was an example where the treaty said the border should be at the northwest corner of the Lake of the Woods. The trouble was, nobody at the time knew exactly where or what shape the Lake of the woods was. And so when they went to actually survey the land with this treaty in their hand, they had no option but to draw this line in an absurd straight line down cutting off part of the US when it should actually, by all reasonable logic, it should be in Canada. But to this day, it's a part of the US that you can only access either by boat or by traveling through two countries.

B (16:30)

We're discussing things you never knew about maps, and my guest is Jay Foreman, author of this Way When Maps Go Wrong and why It Matters.

E (16:41)

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B (16:43)

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Head to drinkag1.com something to get a free welcome kit with an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 when you first subscribed. That's drinkag1.com something with the weather getting colder and the holidays upon us, I just want my wardrobe to be easy. Things that look sharp, feel great and last season after season. Which is exactly what I get from Quince I reach for my Quince cashmere sweaters constantly. They're 100% Mongolian cashmere and somehow they're just 50 bucks. Soft, warm and the kind of everyday luxury that doesn't feel overdone. And their denim is another favorite. Great fit, easy to wear and it holds up beautifully. And if you're looking for a holiday gift to give without the big price tag guilt, Quince is perfect for that. Those cashmere sweaters I just mentioned, they make great gifts. And their wool coats, you gotta check them out. They're stylish and durable and their quality is top of the line. It's amazing how many people have found quince and love it. What I love is how Quince works directly with ethical factories and top artisans cutting out the middlemen. So you get premium quality at half the cost of other high end brands. It's luxury without the markup, which means you can give something nice this season or keep it for yourself. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.comsysk free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsysk so Jay, you know, people used to have all kinds of maps in their glove compartment, but now everybody's got GPS on their phone and you know, the map's pretty accurate. It seems to get you from here to there. And then services like Waze and Google Maps, I mean, they give you actual driving directions. Seems like a pretty good map.

C (20:08)

But on the other hand, we're losing a vital skill. There were some studies done that showed that the rise of GPS is likely contributing to an epidemic in Alzheimer's. And that's because using a good old fashioned paper map, in fact, it doesn't even have to be a paper map using a map, it can even be on your smartphone. But where the map doesn't revolve around you, where you have to look at it and work out where you are, that skill is something that is very good for the hippocampus. There was a study done and they worked out that of 400 different occupations, the occupation that had by far the biggest hippocampus was taxi drivers because of the regular exercise they were doing in memorizing the streets and knowing their way around London without having to depend on gps. So it's something that we're missing out on. There's another study we found out about UCL did another study in 2014, where they got a bunch of students to walk around Soho, this neighborhood in central London. Half of them were using their sat navs, they were using GPS on their phone, and half of them were using paper maps. And they were all walking around wearing this special equipment on their head that monitored how much their hippocampus was being used. And it turns out that those that were using maps the old fashioned way, their hippocampuses were being used rather a lot. And it was firing away during this experiment, and those that were just staring down at the blinking blue dot on their phone, it was barely being used at all. So it's a rather worrying trend, but not a huge amount we can necessarily do about it, because they've become so indispensable using GPS to the point that there's now plenty of people who know their way around their city perfectly well. And yet even they use GPS because it now has information that you couldn't hope to know yourself, such as where the traffic jams are or which roads might be closed.

B (21:56)

You know, I think everybody has mixed emotions about WAZE and other navigation systems that send you on different routes than you would normally take. And you're so tempted to say, yeah, I know a better way. And yet so often when you do that, you get stuck in traffic and. And you wonder, like, you wonder whether their way is the right way or the best way or not when they.

C (22:21)

Send you on these routes, especially if you use waze, which is the. It's the GPS that specializes in squiggly little shortcuts to avoid even the slightest traffic jam. And I sometimes wonder, they might be experimenting on you, and they're sending each driver a slightly different way so that they can get data about which way was quicker. And if that were true, that would explain why several times it said, turn this way, take the little squiggly road to the left. And I've ignored it and got there much faster than it said I would.

E (22:48)

Except when you don't. Except when you say, you know.

C (22:51)

Except when you don't. There are plenty of stories of people who are relying too much on their gps, and they end up in some absurd situations and some dangerous situations. My favorite story is there was a couple on holiday in Italy. They wanted to get to the luxurious island of Capri, but they drove for hundreds of miles and ended up in the city of Kapi, which is very similar spelling, but completely the wrong side of the country. And there were some other people who tried to get to what turned out to be an island in Australia. And their car was instructed to drive across a lake, which they tried to do. There was a woman who drove onto train tracks because the sat nav told her to. And actually, I think my favorite one of all time, there was a Belgian woman who was supposed to be driving less than an hour away from her house to Brussels railway station to pick up her grandson. And she drove for more than two days, all the way from Belgium to Croatia across five countries. And she only realized something was wrong when the satnav said, you have reached your destination.

E (23:55)

Have there been any like, because we think of them as being so accurate, have there been anything, anything that anyone's found lately, like in the last 50 years that said, wait a minute, that's actually not there, or that's not the way that goes?

C (24:12)

The most recent one that comes to mind is a case in 2012 where Google Maps, which, you know, we usually think of it as the best map that humanity has ever produced and very accurate and updates itself all the time. An entire island that wasn't there, which dates all the way back to Captain Cook. So the story is there is an island, a so called island that isn't there, called Sandy island, which Captain Cook thought he'd spotted. To this day, we don't know why he thought there was an island there. It could be that he'd spotted a different island and didn't know where he was, or it might have been a Fata Morgana, it might have been a speck of dust in his eye, we don't know. But the point is, maps were produced for hundreds of years that said there is an island here, despite nobody ever checking. And the incredible thing is that Phantom island lasted right up until the age of satellites, because Google Maps, despite most people thinking that you take lots of satellite images, you take photos of the world and then use that to draw the maps, it's actually the other way around. It's a lot quicker and cheaper and more accurate to take the map data that already exists and then paste your photos on top. And so because they did that in the part of the Indian Ocean where they expected Sandy island to be, there's a great. Well up until 2012, when they got rid of it, there was a great big black smudge because that was where they told their computers don't use plain blue for ocean, use actual satellite photo. And so where the island should be is an actual satellite photo of the ocean, which in real life is a very, very dark blue that looks like a black smudge. So, yeah, this is a map error that lasted right up until 2012.

B (25:46)

You would think that there isn't a lot of controversy when it comes to maps, but maybe there is, because, you know, maybe there are countries that aren' happy with the way their country is portrayed on the map or on the globe. Is there any of that?

C (26:02)

We're always keeping an eye on what's in the news with maps at the moment. Any geography related news story is interesting to us. And there was one that came up just less than a month ago where the African Union, which is a union of African countries, has put out a statement that they wish for most world maps to be changed because most world maps are using an old fashioned projection method. The Mercator projection, which famously is accurate for shape, but not very accurate for scale. Takes the. So the problem is, taking a round earth and making a flat map of it is impossible to do without some kind of distortion. You have to either stretch bits or squash bits, or slice bits. And the most popular method for doing it is the so called Mercator projection, which sort of imagines that the globe is a balloon inside a tube. You blow up the balloon inside the tube and then when you deflate it, the ink has left behind where the countries are. And the consequence of this is it makes all the regions near the poles, such as Greenland, enormous. And that's at the expense of all the regions close to the equator, which look much smaller than they are. So on the most common seen flat map of the world, Greenland is about the same size as all of Africa. And it also makes most of northern Europe look bigger than it really is. It stretches Scotland, it stretches Norway to be enormous. It makes Canada twice the size it really is. And the African Union pointed out that this is a unhelpfully sort of colonialist way of looking at the world. And when you have a map on a classroom wall, you've got to ask yourself, what's the job of that map? Is it so that people can navigate the world using lines? Does it have to be an accurate shape? Or is it perhaps more accurate to learn something like Africa is huge. So that's why they're pushing for the Mercator map, the Mercator projection, to be retired after hundreds of years of imposing itself on the world and for it to be swapped with something that better acknowledges that any flat map of the round Earth is a distortion and it shouldn't always be distorted at the expense of Africa, which in real life is massive.

B (28:11)

Well, no wonder you have your own show on YouTube. You know I would have thought maps. I mean, how interesting can that be? But clearly it is. I've been talking with Jay Foreman, co host of map men on YouTube and author of the book this Way When Maps Go Wrong and why It Matters. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Jay, thank you for coming on.

C (28:35)

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on.

F (28:38)

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D (31:31)

Thank you Mike. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

B (31:33)

So when someone is described as courageous or bold, another word that's often used is fearless. Are courageous and bold people fearless? Is that what courage is?

D (31:47)

Courage is not the absence of fear which is the way Hollywood and other fictional accounts portray it. Courage is taking action in the face of fear. Most of us are not fearless. The fearless are far and few between. Most of us experience fear. Courage is being able to take action in the face of fear.

B (32:10)

So you often hear people say look what he's doing. I could never do that. Like skydiving or climbing up a mountain, I could never do that either because there's something I have that gets in the way or there's something he doesn't have that allows him to do that.

D (32:31)

So you know, it's a great observation and actually one of the starting points for cowardice or lack of courage is this self talk. We all have a narrative that we tell ourselves about ourselves. This is who I am, this is what I'm capable of doing. This is what I'm not capable of doing. And this inner voice can be a powerful enabler. It can also be a powerful disabler. I'll just give you an example of this. So when I was a teenager, you know, my mother was a successful fashion designer. She was doing very well. She bought a piece of land. Real estate developer was desperately trying to get this land from her and one day he sends somebody to speak to her. I'm a teenager, he wants to come in for five minutes. My mother agrees to meet him. I bring him in, she's in the living room. He sits down across from her and he says ma', am, I need to buy your land. And she says well I'm really sorry, I've told you before, I don't want to sell it, I want to keep it for myself. He takes out a blank check and a piece of paper says ma', am please you write the number. She says it doesn't matter, I don't need the money, I just don't want to sell my land. I'm going to build a farm or farmhouse over there. He then gets a little more belligerent and says ma', am, I can't leave without your signature. And he's a big burly guy and my mother is five foot one and my mother says I'm sorry, not going to happen. So he Then he's wearing a blazer, leans back and shows a gun. Now I'm at the door, I see it. I'm panicked. I'm thinking, what should I do? What should I do? Should I not. Should I call the guard at the gate? Should I jump him? Should I wait for him? Is he bluffing? My mother without hesitation, stands up, walks across the room and slaps him across the face. He doesn't even see it coming.

E (34:15)

Wow.

D (34:16)

How dare you come to my house and try to scare me and bully me into giving you my land. And you're scaring me with a gun. Get out of my house. Afterwards, I told her, I said, mom, didn't you see he had a gun? She said, yes. I said, that was scary. Why didn't, didn't you think you could shoot us? She said, you know what? I was scared. But being scared doesn't mean you do nothing. And it dawned on me that, you know, fear can paralyze us. We have our own little self. And fear is a primal human emotion hardwired in the primitive brain. So most of us are paralyzed by fear. We don't want to. And we have this self talk in our head. I can't do this. This is not me. And you have to change your self talk. And my mother's mind, you know, she had worked incredibly hard overcoming credible obstacles to reach where she had from being a laid off school teacher turned anthropologist turned businesswoman fashion designer in France. You know, she wasn't going to let somebody bully her now. So how do we change that? Talk in our head is the starting point in this journey. It's not the end point.

E (35:27)

Well, wait a minute, though. I admire that your mother had such.

B (35:31)

Courage, but there were some other options.

E (35:33)

That were a little less scary, like trying to stall him or let me talk to my lawyer or let me set up a meeting with, you know, my people. Or, I mean, she could have deescalated the situation. She chose to do what she did.

D (35:47)

But there was. I skipped that part. I skipped the conciliatory conversation to say, I don't want to. This is not gonna happen. He was adamant. I am taking your signature today. I will not leave this room without your signing this paper.

E (36:03)

Still, though, slapping him was, you know, as the title of your book suggests, was a very bold move to make a statement.

B (36:12)

But there were perhaps other options. But here's the thing.

E (36:17)

When I hear that story, and when.

B (36:19)

Most people hear that story, as I.

E (36:21)

Just said, I admire her for doing that. And probably because I don't think I would have ever done that. And then I think, well, why? I mean, because he's not gonna shoot her. I mean, he wasn't gonna. He wasn't gonna shoot her.

D (36:36)

You know, I asked her. I asked afterwards. Well, you know, the thing is, Mike, you have to understand the cultural context of India in the 70s a bit lawless. You know, where this is a thug, he's a fixer sent by a real estate guy. This is a pretty lawless, thuggy system where the guy is pulling out and showing a gun, and he's saying, I'm gonna get your signature today, whether you want to or not. And she had to do something. You know, I mean, I was home, her as her son, my sister was at home, and the guard was outside, and he knew he had the upper hand. So we can debate the situation and say she could. I've skipped a lot of details. She tried very hard to conciliate with the guy, and he said, I am taking that signature of yours today. And he got belligerent from being very polite and conciliatory to belligerent. And he was a 6ft 3, big guy. And I think the point to take is, you know, we can debate the story and the merits of the story. I think the point I want to take from this is that, you know, we all experience fear in uncertain situations. And some of us, most of us will freeze up, and sometimes you have to do something drastic.

E (37:51)

And why do we freeze up? My sense is because we're afraid of what might happen next.

D (37:59)

To understand that, you have to understand that. Where does fear originate? Fear is a primal survival, human emotion. It's hardwired in the brain, in the amygdala, in the primitive brain, and it originates from what is called uncertainty. What is uncertainty? Uncertainty is not risk. Uncertainty is where we don't know. Risk is where you can look at the distribution of outcomes, put probabilities on them, you know, say 10% chance of this, 30% chance of that. You kind of like, you know, laid out. The entire field of finance is based on risk, risk management, you know, risk adjudication, all that stuff. Uncertainties where you don't know. You know, One of the worst words you can use to describe somebody is coward. Well, cowardice is a normal response.

B (38:49)

Running away, survival.

D (38:52)

You know, we.

B (38:53)

Yeah.

D (38:53)

If you look at our ancestors, Mike, most of our ancestors were not brave. The ones who were brave didn't make it. The ones who made it were the ones who ran and hid when there was danger.

B (39:08)

Sometimes.

D (39:08)

And. Yeah, but again, human progress is Because a few of them chose to face into danger. The Wright brothers, when they invented the airplane, guess who flew in the plane? They did. That was risky and uncertain, right? When you have Alexander Fleming injecting himself with penicillin to see if it works. So you have all these people who really put themselves out there in the face of uncertainty. So the puzzle, then, the puzzle, the question really is, what is it that allows ordinary people to take bold action? And into that question is rolled another question. Can we learn to become bold? Or are we simply just born bold?

E (39:56)

To which you say, what?

D (39:58)

To which I say what? I looked at all these courageous people and I interviewed them, and there was several hundred of them. Most of them became courageous. They had taught themselves to be courageous. And then I discovered that they actually had strategies to deal with fear. They tamed the fear, they engaged with the fear. They took action in spite of the fear. I'll give you an example. Brandon, say. Brandon, say was a cashier at a dance hall in California and a gunman shows up. He's already shot up another dance hall a few miles away, and he shows up with a nak47, I think it was, and Brandon's fur. He's a pacifist, slightly built fellow, and he's behind the door at the cashier window. His first reaction is to duck under the table and hide. Maybe the guy won't see me and he'll just go into the dance hall and do whatever he has to do. And then he asks himself, you know, like, what am I doing? This is my grandmother's dance hall. My mother worked here her whole life till she passed away. This has been our family's kind of. I'm the custodian of this place. And by the way, the people who are dancing inside, all the people I've known since I was a kid, it was a ballroom dance place for adult seniors. And he gets himself up, opens the door, comes out and confronts the gunman. And is able to, after a fight where the gunman punches this guy in the face multiple times, he's able to grab the gun away from him. This is a guy who's never really ever fought with anybody, ever. So I had to ask him, like, how did you resource yourself and what did you do to compel yourself to do this? I talked to Marines. How do they compel themselves to put themselves in harm's way? I talked to an astronaut who was a Top Gun pilot before. Like, what compelled him to do what he does? I talked to a Ukrainian mergers and acquisitions lawyer who is Now a frontline commando in their, you know, undercover operations, like, why is he doing what he's doing? And you discover that these people have found deliberate strategies that allow themselves to take on fear and take action.

E (42:24)

But doesn't there have to be some sort of live to fight another day, that there are plenty of fearless people who are dead because they did something fearless and it didn't work out?

D (42:37)

First of all, I want to be very clear. You said fearless. I didn't say fearless. These are fearful people. Fearless. You're right. There are a few handful of people out there who are fearless. These are people taking action in the face of fear. But you make an important point. There's a distinction between. Aristotle made this distinction between courage and reckless. So courageous doesn't mean reckless. First of all, you know, you're taking action within means and within limits. The second piece of the puzzle is, you know, courage doesn't always lead to good outcomes for people. Right? That's what courage is. You're taking action in spite of fear. One of my former MBA students was Frances Haugen, who became the whistleblower at Facebook, and she felt morally compelled to do what she did. She lost her job and her career. So sometimes it doesn't have a good outcome. So it's not like courage is. That's convenient. Courage. I'll do something, but as long as the outcome is good, I'm courageous. No, and you're right that the media and all of us tend to portray examples of people where courage has a good ending. You know, the hero, the heroine wins. It doesn't always happen that way, but that's what courage is, that you're willing to take action. Not reckless action, but with the full understanding that this is uncertain and it may or may not end in a good way, but you feel compelled to do something.

E (44:04)

But do you think there are some people, though, that really are just that way? I mean, it seems like there are people who just. It's almost as if they don't care. It's not like I'm not going to sit here and weigh the pros and cons. I'm just going to take action. And that's, like, part of who they are.

D (44:27)

Absolutely. There are some people who are wired that way, but what can we. What can the rest of us learn from them? I mean, the point I want to make is that there are ordinary people who may not be wired that way who still choose to act boldly. Think about the lion and wizard of Oz, right? He finally gets to the wizard and says, Give me courage. Give me courage. And the wizard says, but you already have courage. He said, no, but I'm scared. I'm scared all the time. He said, but you still chose to take action even though you were scared. You are courageous. And I think what we need to understand is how can ordinary people who may not have this congenital magical quality of fearlessness, can resource themselves to act with courage, meaning taking action. Nelson Mandela talked about this too. He said that, you know, I thought courage is the absence of fear. I've discovered courage is conquering fear. It's taking action in the face of fear. It's looking fear in the eye and still choosing to do something.

B (45:33)

When you think about it or when I think about it, there seems to be a connection between confidence and courage.

D (45:41)

Yes, actually, there's a really interesting body of research on self efficacy by a Stanford psychologist, Albert Bandura. And he said that, you know, there are two aspects to confidence. One is domain specific efficacy. I'm the master of my craft. I know my job. I know my skills. You know, Captain Sullenberger has to fly a United Airlines flight where the engines both fail at takeoff from LaGuardia, and he has to land the plane in the Hudson river. He's a 40 year seasoned veteran pilot. He's, you know, he knows what needs to be done. That's called domain specific efficacy. But there's a second kind of efficacy, which is the generalized can do efficacy. I got it. I can do it. So when Katie Couric asked Captain Sullenberger, like, listen, what did he need to do? Did he know what he needed? He said, I knew what I needed to do, but I've never done it before. So Katie Couric said, but there's a big if, you know, you hadn't done it before. And he looks her in the eye and says, I knew I could do it. I knew I could do it. So where do you find that? So similarly, I have a set of kind of other practices that individuals can do. I then pivot in near the end of the book into collective courage. How do you bake courage into organizations, into teams, into collectives? How do sports athletes, coaches of sports teams, how do they build a winning mindset, a bold mindset into their team? Whether you're a football team or a soccer team or a basketball team. And if you look at some of the coach memoirs, they all talk about this, this winning spirit.

E (47:21)

When people are in that moment where they have to be courageous and they're feeling the fear, what are they afraid of? Afraid of what Is it, what's it gonna happen? What will people think? Or what is the fear that paralyzes people?

D (47:40)

You know, first of all, you know that fear is a primal human emotion that is hardwired. It's a survival emotion. There was actually a book not long ago called about, I think, the benefits of fear, that you need fear. Listen to your fear. It's telling you something. So don't neglect fear. Fear is telling you there's danger around you somewhere. But usually the fear we have is of downside risk. It's what there's a Nobel Prize around this idea of loss avoidance, that we experience the pain of losing more than the pleasure of winning. The pain of losing is greater than the pleasure of winning. So we are loss avoiders. In fact, in golf, the pain of getting a bogey is greater than the pleasure from getting a birdie, right? In tennis, the pain of a double fault is greater than the pleasure of winning the point. And so that's why in tennis, all these coaches, what do they teach their players? Second serve should not be just some lame serve. It better be a damn good serve too. That is a huge bottleneck for these people. What happens to golfers? They have a bad hole and then they become all nervous and cautious about having another bad hole. In fact, Scotty Scheffler, you know, the number one golf player these days, in an interview not long ago was asked, like, what changed his game. Like, this guy is like just cranked it up. And he said it was a round of golf that he played with Tiger woods at the Masters in 2022. And I think it was the 12th hole or something. It's a par three hole and Tiger hit two balls into the water hazard and he got a 10 on a par three and immediately he was out of contention in the tournament. And so Scotty's watching this quietly because he's paired up with Tiger. And what he watches is Tiger comes back and birdies the next five holes one after the other. He's completely tuned out of that. But you know, loss avoidance becomes, and by the way, in sports psychology, we, they say that when we encounter fear, it also creates muscular over tightening. Our muscles tighten up and that wrecks the game. That makes it even worse. So I think it's important to understand the emotion of fear, as you pointed out, and also recognize that fear is about the downside risk. What is the worst thing that can happen to me?

E (50:22)

And.

D (50:22)

But its origination point is uncertainty, because in uncertainty you don't know what's going to happen. So you can only think of the worst case scenario and you don't see that. You only see the downside.

B (50:35)

Well, you know, there's nothing like a rousing conversation about being bold and facing fear. That'll give yourself some courage in whatever scary thing you have to face next. I've been speaking with Ranjay Gulati. He is a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book how to Be the Surprising Science of Everyday Courage. There's a link to that book in the show notes and I appreciate you talking about this today, Ranjay. If you grab almost any zipper on your jacket or backpack or jeans, there's a good chance it's stamped with the letters ykk. And that's a good thing. YKK are the initials for a Japanese company that roughly translates to Yoshida Manufacturing Corporation. The company was founded in 1934 and today YKK is estimated to make around half of all the zippers in the world, billions every year, and has earned an unmatched reputation for consistency and reliability. Designers and manufacturers trust YKK because their zippers almost never jam, split or corrode. The company now produces other fasteners and snaps and architectural products, but zippers remain its core business, and YKK zippers are so ubiquitous that it would be hard to find a household anywhere on the planet that doesn't have at least one YKK zipper somewhere inside. And that is something you should know as a listener of something you should know. I trust that you find value in listening to this podcast and I'm sure you know other people that would also find value in it. So I hope you'll share it with them. Ask them to give a listen. Just use the share button on the player you've got and it makes it real easy. I'm Mike, her brothers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

C (52:32)

Should I be excited or afraid of AI?

G (52:35)

Things are going to look so different.

C (52:37)

In the next couple years.

D (52:38)

If we don't wake up to this, it's going to be a lot of pain for a lot of people.

B (52:42)

I'm Jeff Nielsen, host of Digital Disruption, the Go to podcast for technology leaders.

D (52:47)

We're going to see AI drive us to a much more humanistic place.

C (52:51)

I actually believe this is going to.

D (52:52)

Be the moment of our salvation.

B (52:53)

It's unbelievably exciting. Stay ahead of the curve with Digital Disruption available now on your favorite podcast platform.

G (53:02)

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing Company. No matter how you do game day, on the couch, in the crowd, or manning the snack table, Athletic Brewing fits right in with a full lineup of non alcoholic beer styles you can enjoy bold flavors all game long. No hangovers, no buzz, no subbing out.

B (53:20)

For water in the fourth quarter.

G (53:21)

Stock the fridge for kickoff with a variety of non alcoholic craft styles. Available at your local grocery store or online at athleticbrewing.com near Beer Fit for All times.