When to Quit and Walk Away & Why We Are Drawn to the Water - SYSK Choice

Summary

Podcast Summary: "When to Quit and Walk Away & Why We Are Drawn to the Water"

Episode Title: When to Quit and Walk Away & Why We Are Drawn to the Water
Host: Mike Carruthers
Co-host: Not specified
Guests: Julia Keller, Wallace J. Nichols
Release Date: April 26, 2025
Knowledge Cutoff: 2023-10

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of "Something You Should Know", host Mike Carruthers delves into two profound topics that can significantly impact personal and professional lives: the concept of quitting and knowing when to walk away, and the innate human attraction to water. Through insightful conversations with experts Julia Keller, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author of A Life Strategy, and Wallace J. Nichols, a senior fellow at the Center for the Blue Economy, listeners gain a deeper understanding of these subjects backed by scientific research and real-world examples.

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Part 1: Redefining Quitting with Julia Keller

[05:06] Quitting as a Positive Strategy

Contrary to the traditional narrative that equates quitting with failure, Julia Keller presents a compelling argument that quitting can be a strategic and necessary choice. She challenges the long-held beliefs about grit and perseverance, suggesting that flexibility and the ability to change direction are crucial for personal growth and success.

Key Points:

1. Misconceptions About Quitting:

   • Society often labels quitting as a moral failing, discouraging individuals from making necessary changes.
   • Julia Keller asserts, "Quitting is when we stop one direction and go in another. It's a willingness to be flexible" ([05:56]).

2. Precision Quitting:

   • Keller introduces the concept of "precision quitting" or "strategic quitting," which involves making informed decisions to leave situations that no longer serve one's best interests.
   • Example: Tiger Woods adapting his approach to golf after personal and professional challenges illustrates strategic quitting ([11:07]).

3. Emotional and Psychological Benefits:

   • Recognizing when to quit can lead to greater personal freedom and happiness.
   • Individuals often regret the things they didn't quit more than those they did, emphasizing the importance of timely decision-making ([09:30]).

4. Quasi Quitting:

   • A gradual approach to quitting, allowing individuals to adjust without making abrupt changes.
   • Julia Keller describes it as a "rheostat dial," enabling incremental shifts rather than an all-or-nothing decision ([10:48]).

5. Cultural and Historical Context:

   • The stigma around quitting has roots in historical self-help movements that valorized relentless perseverance.
   • Keller critiques this notion, arguing that it overlooks the complexity of human experiences and circumstances ([16:50]).

Notable Quotes:

• "Quitting is like aerobics for your brain." — Julia Keller ([05:45])
• "Precision quitting suggests that quitting doesn't have to be an on, off switch." — Julia Keller ([11:00])

Real-World Examples:

• Simone Biles withdrawing from Olympic finals to prioritize mental health showcases the strength in strategic quitting ([17:40]).
• Scottie Pippen's decision to leave a pivotal game due to frustration reflects the personal impact of quitting decisions ([18:42]).

Conclusion:

Julia Keller emphasizes that quitting, when approached thoughtfully, is not a sign of weakness but rather a strategic move that can lead to better opportunities and personal fulfillment. By redefining quitting and removing its negative connotations, individuals can make empowered decisions that align with their true aspirations and well-being.

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Part 2: The Human Attraction to Water with Wallace J. Nichols

[31:45] Understanding Our Draw to Water

Wallace J. Nichols, author of Blue Mind, explores the inherent human connection to water and its profound effects on our mental and physical well-being. His research sheds light on why being near water is universally appealing and beneficial.

Key Points:

1. Blue Mind Concept:

   • Nichols introduces "Blue Mind," a state of calm and enhanced creativity achieved through interactions with water.
   • "Water helps us to relax, it helps us to be more creative. It connects us to each other and to ourselves" ([32:57]).

2. Multisensory Experience:

   • The sensory aspects of water—from the sound of waves to the feeling of buoyancy—contribute to its soothing effects.
   • Engaging all senses simultaneously creates a unique and beneficial experience ([35:18]).

3. Scientific Research and Experiments:

   • Nichols discusses studies conducted during the pandemic lockdowns, revealing that access to water significantly improved people's mental health and resilience.
   • Those with water access fared better emotionally, underscoring water's vital role in human life ([38:10]).

4. Economic Impact:

   • Proximity to water leads to higher real estate values, reflecting the premium people place on being near water.
   • Properties with water views can command prices up to 40-1000% higher than those inland ([46:05]).

5. Cultural and Emotional Significance:

   • Water is a common backdrop for significant life events—weddings, memorials, and family gatherings—highlighting its role in human rituals and relationships.
   • "Soft fascination" with water allows individuals to engage in meaningful interactions without cognitive overload ([41:49]).

Notable Quotes:

• "We are water beings on a water planet." — Wallace J. Nichols ([32:24])
• "The somatic experience of water... is all at the same time." — Wallace J. Nichols ([39:40])

Real-World Examples:

• Real Estate Premiums: Waterfront properties in areas like Del Mar, California, demonstrate the substantial economic value attributed to water proximity ([47:24]).
• Pandemic Lockdowns: Restrictions on beach access during lockdowns led to significant emotional distress, illustrating water's essential place in human life ([38:10]).

Conclusion:

Wallace J. Nichols underscores the critical importance of water in fostering human happiness, creativity, and connection. By understanding and embracing our innate draw to water, individuals can enhance their quality of life. Nichols advocates for making this knowledge common, encouraging everyone to seek out and utilize water in their daily lives to achieve a balanced and fulfilling existence.

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Additional Insights: Enhancing Love Life

Interspersed within the main discussions, the podcast offers practical advice for improving relationships based on insights from Lou Padgett, author of The Great Lover Playbook. Key tips include:

• Express Appreciation: "When your partner does something that makes you proud, say it out loud and tell other people about it too."
  Timestamp not specified.

• Active Listening: "Stop what you're doing and really listen when your partner has something to say."

• Physical Affection: "Get touchy. Holding hands, a longer embrace, or spontaneous caress will get noticed when it's not expected."

• Varying Intimacy Routines: "Start kissing your partner the way you'd like to be kissed to rekindle the romance."
  Timestamp not specified.

---

Conclusion

This episode of "Something You Should Know" provides listeners with transformative insights into the art of quitting strategically and the universal human affinity for water. Through the expert guidance of Julia Keller and Wallace J. Nichols, coupled with actionable relationship tips, audience members are equipped to make informed decisions that enhance their personal lives and well-being.

Notable Moments:

• Julia Keller's Breakthrough: Redefining quitting as a strategic tool rather than a failure ([05:06] - [27:38]).
• Wallace J. Nichols' Blue Mind Theory: Exploring the deep-seated connection between humans and water, and its implications for mental health and real estate ([31:45] - [48:19]).

Key Takeaways:

• Quitting, when done thoughtfully, can lead to better personal and professional outcomes.
• Water plays a crucial role in human happiness, creativity, and social connections.
• Practical relationship strategies can significantly enhance love lives.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on these insights and consider how strategic quitting and increased engagement with water can positively influence their lives.

---

Notable Quotes:

• "Quitting is when we stop one direction and go in another. It's a willingness to be flexible." — Julia Keller ([05:56])
• "We are water beings on a water planet." — Wallace J. Nichols ([32:24])
• "Quitting is like aerobics for your brain." — Julia Keller ([05:45])
• "Soft fascination" with water allows for meaningful interactions without cognitive overload." — Wallace J. Nichols ([41:49])

---

For more detailed insights and to explore further, listeners are encouraged to visit the show's website and access the episode notes.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know. Is beginner's luck a real thing or just a fluky occurrence?

[Co-host]

Then quitting? We've been taught to persevere.

[Mike Carruthers]

Never quit.

[Co-host]

But sometimes quitting is the right choice.

[Julia Keller]

I believe that everything always believed about quitting is wrong. And all the good things we've believed about grit and perseverance is also wrong. That quitting and modern neuroscience bears me out on this. Quitting is when we stop one direction and go in another.

[Co-host]

Then some simple ways to improve your love life that happen outside the bedroom and why are humans so attracted to water? Beaches, lakes, rivers, streams. We like to be near water.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Water helps us to relax. It helps us to be more creative. It helps to connect us to each. It connects us to ourselves and it is the basis of all life. We've all experienced it, but it's nice.

[Mike Carruthers]

To tag it all this today on something you should know.

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[Narrator]

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

[Mike Carruthers]

Hi and welcome to another episode of something you should know.

[Co-host]

Something I've always wondered about, and perhaps you have too, is beginner's luck.

[Mike Carruthers]

Maybe you've experienced it or witnessed it.

[Co-host]

Is beginner's luck a real thing, I wonder? Well, apparently it is.

[Mike Carruthers]

But actually luck doesn't have a lot.

[Co-host]

To do with it.

[Mike Carruthers]

What we chalk up to beginner's luck.

[Co-host]

Actually has two parts to it. First of all, beginners or novices often fail, don't perform well on a first attempt. That's no surprise. So when a beginner does get lucky.

[Mike Carruthers]

Every once in a while surprise.

[Co-host]

We notice it and we respond to a surprise more than we do to the predictable.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we tend to think that it happens more often than it does. It doesn't really happen that often.

[Co-host]

The other all important aspect to beginner's luck is pressure. People who are experts or who are at the top of their game are expected to succeed. They feel the pressure. And performing under pressure is always more of a challenge.

[Mike Carruthers]

Beginners, on the other hand, usually don't care how they perform on a first attempt.

[Co-host]

So the pressure's off. A novice is more likely to take.

[Mike Carruthers]

A risk that just might pay off. And every once in a while it does.

[Co-host]

And that is something you should know. There is something about quitting, walking away from something, almost anything. Quitting is for losers. At least that's the way many of us think. Winners never quit, quitters never win. You don't quit, you finish what you start.

[Mike Carruthers]

Quitting is bad. Perseverance is good.

[Co-host]

Well, maybe we should re examine that assumption that quitting is such a bad thing. Maybe sometimes quitting is the best strategy.

[Mike Carruthers]

That's what Julia Keller is here to discuss.

[Co-host]

Julia is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, novelist and playwright and she is author.

[Mike Carruthers]

Of a book called A Life Strategy. Hi Julia. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Guest]

Oh, hi there Mike.

[Julia Keller]

So happy to be here.

[Co-host]

So go ahead and make your case.

[Mike Carruthers]

For quitting because as I said, you.

[Co-host]

Know, most people look at quitting as.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you don't do, that that's not a good thing. So why is it? And when is it a good thing?

[Julia Keller]

I believe deep in my soul that everything we've always believed about quitting is wrong.

[Guest]

And all the good things we've believed.

[Julia Keller]

About grit and perseverance is Also wrong.

[Guest]

That, in effect, we've been sold a bill of goods.

[Julia Keller]

That quitting, and modern neuroscience bears me out on this, is I like to think of it as aerobics for your brain.

[Guest]

Quitting is when we stop one direction.

[Julia Keller]

And go in another. It's a willingness to be flexible, and there's a cognitive flexibility involved. And so people will say to me, well, if you're right and grit and perseverance aren't all they're cracked up to be, and quitting can be a good.

[Guest]

Thing, then how come for all these hundreds of years, we've been told the opposite?

[Julia Keller]

You know, in the words, where do you get off?

[Guest]

Why are you so smart? And what I usually reply is, we can trace the history of the grit and perseverance idea. I often say that grit is a con.

[Julia Keller]

It's been sold to us like cars or cornflakes or smartphones.

[Guest]

And there's a reason why we're told that everything is in our own hands.

[Julia Keller]

And it's all up to us, because it isn't. And once we accept that and we realize that we often have to change course because bad things just happen to us, unexpected things happen to us, we become much freer, less judgmental of other people and less judgmental of ourselves, certainly.

[Guest]

And we're able to live life a little freer, a little happier.

[Co-host]

So I understand the changing course that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Sometimes life circumstances dictate that you have to change course. And in order to change course, you may have to quit something in order to move to something else. Okay, I get that. But there's another kind of quitting that's not that. It's the I just don't want to do this anymore kind of quitting, which feels more like just the easy way, the chicken way out.

[Julia Keller]

Well, the distinction you're making there is very important. In fact, that's one of the things that I had to really look at.

[Guest]

Is say you're a parent and your kid comes to you and says, yeah, I want to quit the basketball team.

[Julia Keller]

I just don't want to do it.

[Guest]

And you're a parent and you realize that, well, I think probably this kid.

[Julia Keller]

Of mine would rather sit home watching YouTube videos.

[Guest]

That kind of quitting, right, Is not what I mean.

[Julia Keller]

I don't mean the quitting, as you say, just kind of like, well, I'm just tired of it.

[Guest]

And a lot of the parents that.

[Julia Keller]

I interviewed in the course of just kind of collecting my thoughts about why I think quitting can be a positive would say that that then initiated another Conversation, they say, okay, why do you want to quit?

[Guest]

And if it is, as you mentioned.

[Julia Keller]

A moment ago, just like, I'm just tired of it, come, I'd rather sit at home, you know, box of Cheetos.

[Guest]

Who wouldn't?

[Julia Keller]

That's not what I mean.

[Guest]

What I mean is a.

[Julia Keller]

What I call precision quitting, strategic quitting.

[Guest]

And that can be whether you're, you know, 14 years old and you want.

[Julia Keller]

To quit the soccer team or whether you're 44 and you are very stale in your job and you think you're looking for another challenge.

[Guest]

It's really along the same thing. And at each time, it requires our brain to do something quite specific and quite important. And that's. The neuroscience of this, I think, is maybe where the distinction lies as well.

[Julia Keller]

Well, that we know that animals in the wild will quit if a certain.

[Guest]

Path is not getting them where they want to go.

[Julia Keller]

And yet we don't.

[Guest]

Often we stick too long with something, and it's not a matter of just lassitude or laziness. It's a matter, I think, of fear.

[Julia Keller]

I know there are certain things that I haven't quit that I know I should have, and I'd like to say, well, because I just didn't want to do it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Often it's fear, to which I can imagine people listening to this, saying, yes, but there I can think of, and I include myself in this list. I have persevered and stuck it out through with things that probably I really didn't want to, and I'm so glad I did.

[Guest]

There is some of that. But I will tell you that in.

[Julia Keller]

Probably 150, 200 interview, many, many, many interviews that I did, the vast, vast, vast majority of people, when I asked them to sort of tell me their quitting history, and everybody has a quitting story. That's something I should have mentioned at the outset. Everybody has a quitting story and they love to tell it. I know when I've been talking about the book hither and yon, that's what comes out. People are much, much, much more likely.

[Guest]

To regret the things that they didn't.

[Julia Keller]

Quit, but they should have, than to regret the things they did quit.

[Guest]

Obviously, there are some of the latter. There are times when we think, oh, I should have stayed with that job.

[Julia Keller]

Wasn'T so bad, or I wish I'd stayed a little longer in that relationship, maybe give it another try. But the vast majority of people, it's completely the opposite. It's, I wish I hadn't stayed so long. I was afraid and that's why I stayed. And again, grit and resilience sometimes work okay.

[Guest]

They're fine.

[Julia Keller]

It's not always true. There's no one formula that's going to work for everybody or no one life strategy. But my argument is that we need.

[Guest]

To include quitting and giving up and.

[Julia Keller]

All these other words that have such.

[Guest]

A pejorative ring to them and sound so negative.

[Julia Keller]

We need to put those into the toolbox.

[Guest]

They need to be looked upon not.

[Julia Keller]

As a moral failing and not as the absolute last refuge of the loser, but as another tool, another way to go about this very complicated thing called life.

[Co-host]

Well, by its nature, quitting is fairly final.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so often it might be better, it would seem, to stick it out a little longer. Because once you quit, you quit. You can't quit a job and then go two weeks later. Oh, boy, you know, I made a mistake. I'm coming back because you're not coming back. You quit.

[Julia Keller]

Well, but you can, I would argue.

[Guest]

I have a thing I call the quasi quit. Now, this is not the same as.

[Julia Keller]

Quiet quitting, which came out about a year ago and to me sounds ridiculous. It's just thievery. It means not working very hard at your job. What I call the quasi quit suggests.

[Guest]

That quitting doesn't have to be an on, off switch.

[Julia Keller]

I don't think it has to be a final thing. I think of it as more of a rheostat dial.

[Guest]

You can quit in increments. You can quit gradually.

[Julia Keller]

You can dial it up and dial it down.

[Guest]

You can change the way you're doing.

[Julia Keller]

Something instead of the thing that you're doing.

[Guest]

And I use a lot of athletes as an example.

[Julia Keller]

I mentioned Tiger Woods, I think, is a great example who is a great.

[Guest]

Champion, a wonderful champion.

[Julia Keller]

But time has passed. He's gone through some grievous physical injuries and some tumultuous emotional times.

[Guest]

He has had to change what he.

[Julia Keller]

Thinks of as victory. He's not a quitter by any means.

[Guest]

But in another sense he is a quitter because he's had to quit. A way of looking at the game.

[Julia Keller]

Of golf and looking at only a first place finish as the only acceptable outcome. And to say, you know what? I showed up, I competed, I did my best.

[Guest]

So quitting, I would argue, is not final. In fact, it's the opposite of final.

[Julia Keller]

You can quit a thousand times and make minor changes or one big major change. But again, it needs to always be.

[Guest]

In that toolbox and to always consider it and to realize if you quit you're not a loser, you're not a.

[Julia Keller]

Bum, you're not a washout, you're not a terrible person.

[Guest]

You're a human being. And you're making another decision.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, doesn't it depend on why you're quitting?

[Guest]

Well, I suppose that's between you and.

[Julia Keller]

Your, you know, your friends and your therapist and whoever. I mean, but again, I think when we put this moral judgment upon it is what I'm. Is what I'm, I guess, most upset about. When I looked at quitting, you know, I always talk about when I was. I was in grad school, 19 years old. I graduated from college early. I was. It was terrible. I'd been about a month in grad school and it was very clear to.

[Guest]

Me this was terrible.

[Julia Keller]

This was awful. I had to get out of there.

[Guest]

But I was so afraid of being called a quitter.

[Julia Keller]

I mean, it clutched at my guts.

[Guest]

You know, the idea of being a.

[Julia Keller]

Quitter because, you know, I'd been.

[Guest]

I love sports. And we all know what we call.

[Julia Keller]

Somebody who leaves before the game is over.

[Guest]

We call them a quitter.

[Julia Keller]

And it's a taunt.

[Guest]

It's a mean jeer.

[Julia Keller]

But this is when I first began.

[Guest]

To question this idea of quitting as being so bad when your body and your mind are telling you you need.

[Julia Keller]

To be somewhere else, why do we resist? And one of the reasons I do is I suggest, and as my research and my interviews kind of made clear to me was that quitting is something.

[Guest]

That serves people in power. It serves the people who have control in this world. Because if you look at quitting as.

[Julia Keller]

A negative, you suggest that all power is in your own hands and that the people who have been successful in life have gotten there because they didn't quit.

[Guest]

They were noble, they were intrepid, they were dedicated, they stayed the course.

[Julia Keller]

Often they were just lucky.

[Co-host]

We're talking about quitting and my guest is Julia Keller. She is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and author of the book A Life Strategy.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Julia, as I listen to you talk, it almost seems like quitting is the wrong word. Because as you describe Tiger Woods, I.

[Co-host]

Mean, I would never describe him as a quitter.

[Mike Carruthers]

But you say he's a quitter, but I would never use that word. He adapted from his life circumstance, how he plays the game. But quitting wouldn't be one of the words I'd use to describe him. It's like it's the wrong word for what you're talking about. Almost.

[Guest]

Well, but ask yourself, Mike, why does.

[Julia Keller]

The word quitting make you feel that? Why do you think?

[Guest]

I would never call Tiger Woods a quitter. I know what you mean. It was a hard sentence to write.

[Julia Keller]

When I said Tiger woods is a quitter. But then I go on to explain, of course, that we think of quitting in a pejorative way, a negative way.

[Guest]

And we've been trained to do that. The word self help was coined in the middle of the 19th century by a man named Samuel Smiles who wrote a book called Self Help with illustrations.

[Julia Keller]

Of character and conduct.

[Guest]

And that's when this idea first got.

[Julia Keller]

Going that quitting is bad, changing course is bad.

[Guest]

Changing how you do something is bad.

[Julia Keller]

You have to stick with something that you begin and never quit and never give up or you're a bad person. There was definitely a moral dimension attached to it. And again, I think that doesn't serve.

[Guest]

Us as human beings very well because.

[Julia Keller]

We sometimes we need to quit things. Relationships don't work out.

[Guest]

Women particularly have been not served well by this idea of quitting as being a negative. They're told, oh, come on, just stick with it, stick with it a little longer.

[Julia Keller]

In terms of relationships, jobs, often quitting.

[Guest]

Is the right thing to do and.

[Julia Keller]

We don't do it because we're afraid.

[Guest]

Of that term quitter. Just as you were saying, it kind.

[Julia Keller]

Of made you shudder a little bit.

[Guest]

And recoil to think of Tiger Woods.

[Julia Keller]

A great champion, like a Tiger woods being a quitter. The other example I give is Simone.

[Guest]

Biles when she withdrew from the finals.

[Julia Keller]

Of the Tokyo Olympics.

[Guest]

Oh, the terrible, terrible name she was called.

[Julia Keller]

And the terrible negativity was thrown at her. It was awful. Now she quit because she wanted to.

[Guest]

Continue to fight another day. She knew it wasn't right. She wasn't in the right frame of.

[Julia Keller]

Mind or in the right body position to do this incredibly perilous job that.

[Guest]

She needs to do as an elite gymnast. Now she's a magnificent champion, just as Tiger woods is. And I would maintain that these great.

[Julia Keller]

Champions understand when to quit and when to give up.

[Guest]

And I take your point that those are.

[Julia Keller]

That those are maybe kind of harsh sounding words because they're words that we.

[Guest]

Have attached all of this negativity to and it makes it very hard to change course. But suppose we sucked all that negativity.

[Julia Keller]

Away from those words. Suppose we thought of quitting as a positive.

[Mike Carruthers]

But sometimes your quitting affects other people. If you're the member of a team and you quit the team and the team suffers, well, now a lot of people are taking it on the chin because you quit.

[Guest]

That's true.

[Julia Keller]

And sports is a great example. I mean, I think sports examples are terrific. I think sports is one of the. Some of the great metaphors for life. The example I often use is Scottie Pippen, who is persistently asked about his 1992 playoff game when he quit when.

[Guest]

He wouldn't go back on the court after a timeout right at the end.

[Julia Keller]

Of the game because he was mad that the coach had decided to let another player take the final shot. And Scottie Pippen was mad and so.

[Guest]

He sulked and he quit.

[Julia Keller]

He quit on his team that has.

[Guest]

Dogged him and followed him for lo these many years. As great a champion as he is.

[Julia Keller]

You know, Michael Jordan's great, great teammate, he still carries that stigma of being a quitter. I would argue, though, that it's up.

[Guest]

To each individual in their own heart and mind.

[Julia Keller]

Yes, we owe to our teammates, definitely, but sometimes we're better off not being.

[Guest]

In there if we're not going to.

[Julia Keller]

Be able to perform at a high level. In terms of the Scotty Pippen example.

[Guest]

I'd say, you know, maybe he understood.

[Julia Keller]

That he just really wasn't, you know.

[Guest]

Now because he was so upset.

[Julia Keller]

And you can argue that maybe it wasn't the most mature thing to be that upset.

[Guest]

But again, that's between him and his.

[Julia Keller]

Coaches and his, you know, the members of his team.

[Guest]

Not for me to judge. I just think that we're so quick to look at quitting as a negative and to not give people the option, the kind of elbow room, the psychological.

[Julia Keller]

And spiritual elbow room, to make another decision, and we end up being really, really stuck.

[Mike Carruthers]

Because your book is quitting a strategy. And to me, you know, a strategy.

[Co-host]

Is like a plan.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I don't think anybody goes into anything with the strategy, the plan to quit it. Why would you do it if you're planning to quit?

[Guest]

Oh, no, no, no. They do all the time.

[Julia Keller]

You know, I just saw an interview the other day.

[Guest]

Ryan Reynolds being interviewed by David Letterman.

[Julia Keller]

On that Letterman show that's on Netflix now. And he interviews celebrities for not very.

[Guest]

Long, but I find them very revelatory.

[Julia Keller]

And he says to Ryan Reynolds, well, when you came to Hollywood, I guess.

[Guest]

You didn't have a plan B, huh?

[Julia Keller]

You knew you were going to make it or. And Ryan Reynolds looks at him and laughs and says, didn't have a plan.

[Guest]

B. I had a plan B.

[Julia Keller]

C, D, E, F. I mean, he.

[Guest]

Was quite ready to change if it hadn't worked out.

[Julia Keller]

Now, it did work out, but that's.

[Guest]

One of the points I try to make, is that no one's saying it's.

[Julia Keller]

Going to work out.

[Guest]

I mean, there was nothing written on.

[Julia Keller]

Any stone somewhere, you know, that.

[Guest]

That with a. With a sword thrust in it that.

[Julia Keller]

Said Ryan Reynolds is going to be a successful movie star.

[Guest]

No one knew that. All he could do was try. But he was ready on a moment's notice to try something else.

[Julia Keller]

That's the point he makes to Letterman.

[Guest]

He said, oh, no, no, no. I had all kinds of contingency plans. I think we plan all the time.

[Julia Keller]

That we've got to do Something different. We have to have that kind of flexibility, I guess.

[Mike Carruthers]

No, I understand your point, but it just seems that every case is individual.

[Co-host]

I mean, I can speak on behalf.

[Mike Carruthers]

Of almost every podcaster in the world. I, in the early days of this podcast, before it became as successful as it did, thought about quitting every day because it just.

[Co-host]

Nobody was listening.

[Mike Carruthers]

It wasn't going anywhere. It was really hard to do. But I didn't quit. I could have quit. A lot of people have quit, but I didn't, and I stuck it out, and I'm very glad I did.

[Guest]

Well, let me emphasize again that this is very individual. You did stick with this, but I dare say there have to have been some other things in your life, perhaps.

[Julia Keller]

Careers that you thought would be the right one for you.

[Guest]

You're a talented man.

[Julia Keller]

You could have done many different things. There are times when you thought you were going to do something and you.

[Guest]

Had to change in order to get to the point where you could become.

[Julia Keller]

The host of a very successful podcast.

[Guest]

That's the point.

[Julia Keller]

I mean, you don't know what all.

[Guest]

You could do was listen to yourself and your mind and heart and soul said to you. Nope. Okay, this may be rough in the.

[Julia Keller]

Beginning, but this is what I'm made for. I can feel this is what I'm meant to do. And when you have that feeling, you m. That's your decision.

[Guest]

And that's really my only point, is that it has to be your decision.

[Mike Carruthers]

So there is a saying, you know.

[Co-host]

I don't have the luxury of quitting.

[Mike Carruthers]

And I can imagine people listening to this saying, well, great. Geez, I'd love to quit my job, but I have a mortgage to pay, and I have, you know, bills to.

[Co-host]

Pay, and my kids are in school.

[Mike Carruthers]

And they've got dental work. And so quitting sounds great, but a lot of people. For a lot of people, it's not a practical thing to do.

[Julia Keller]

Well, again, I disagree, and I hope that my book is a refutation of that.

[Guest]

I think it's the most practical thing.

[Julia Keller]

You can do is to consider quitting.

[Guest]

And people often do use their families.

[Julia Keller]

As excuses, and I say that as somebody who has done that in the past.

[Guest]

Too.

[Julia Keller]

Well, I have these obligations, and I. But your obligation is to yourself, and.

[Guest]

Something will be there. I mean, this is a wide and.

[Julia Keller]

A varied world, and it's filled with ongoing and endless opportunities for us to make our way in that world.

[Guest]

And if a situation isn't right, from a relationship to a job or a religious belief, I mean, I have a.

[Julia Keller]

Lot of examples, too, that I deal with where people have changed political parties or religious beliefs that they have to feel.

[Guest]

We have to feel that we have.

[Julia Keller]

The freedom to go in another direction, to stop and change.

[Guest]

Again, it's just too grim otherwise.

[Julia Keller]

And again, I just never liked it when I hear people say, well, I would do this or that except for my family. And it's like, no, no, your family.

[Guest]

Is the reason that you do make.

[Julia Keller]

Another decision, because you do have those responsibilities.

[Guest]

And you know that you being a.

[Julia Keller]

Whole person on your way to a new way of living and a brighter frame of mind, that is your responsibility. So, I mean, I kind of see.

[Guest]

It from the other way around.

[Julia Keller]

And I do think of it as a very practical strategy.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember my dad telling me early on in my career that, you know, if you ever want to quit a job, it's always better to line something else first because you look more attractive.

[Co-host]

If you are employed than if you're unemployed.

[Mike Carruthers]

So quit all you want, but get something lined up first.

[Julia Keller]

There is that. You can do that if you wish. But again, I think that's an individual decision. And by no means am I telling anybody what to do. I would never say that one thing is going to work out over all the others. Again, this is just a plea, a kind of an earnest, innocent plea to say it's okay. If you're thinking of quitting something and you're hearing people say, don't do it.

[Guest]

And you're like me in graduate school that terrible night when I decided I.

[Julia Keller]

Just couldn't make it another moment. I mean, I was 19 years old and I truly was at a.

[Guest]

Was that a terrible point?

[Julia Keller]

Kind of a psychological Waterloo. I mean, I don't know what would have happened to me if I'd stayed.

[Guest]

I had to get out of there. And we all know that feeling.

[Julia Keller]

Everybody knows that feeling. Job, relationship, way of thinking.

[Guest]

Sometimes it's a philosophy toward life when.

[Julia Keller]

You realize, I just. I can't be that way anymore.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, as you say, it's very individual.

[Co-host]

Whether you decide to quit or whether.

[Mike Carruthers]

You decide to persevere. But are there any numbers in the research about, you know, is quitting a better strategy? Just anything other than. These are anecdotal stories and you quit and it worked out for you, and you didn't quit and it worked out for you?

[Julia Keller]

Very, very, very few people ever deeply regretted something that they gave up on or quit and look back on and said, oh, if I just hadn't done that. Far, far more often was I so wish I'd quit earlier. It was the wrong thing to do. I wasted, you know, 10 years of my life because I was afraid of being involved in that particular thing, whatever it might been a job or a person or a political party.

[Guest]

So I do take your point.

[Julia Keller]

But there's something you said early on in your question when you said of.

[Guest]

How people feel about it. And that's ultimately what I'm getting at. It's how you feel about it.

[Julia Keller]

And it doesn't matter what I think or you think or any of these.

[Guest]

Fancy neuroscientists who were kind enough to explain their work to me at great length. It doesn't matter what any of them.

[Julia Keller]

Think or what anybody thinks, really.

[Guest]

It's how you feel.

[Julia Keller]

And only, you know, at the end.

[Guest]

Of the day, it's. It's that mind and heart and soul.

[Julia Keller]

That I speak of.

[Guest]

Because truly I think our work and.

[Julia Keller]

The way we spend our time is not just a matter of getting money or keeping a roof over our heads or even taking care of our families. It's sort of our obligation as it's.

[Guest]

A soul deep obligation. It's what we do, how we spend our time. Do we feel as if we have used our gifts and talents to their fullest ability? And if you're in the wrong place.

[Julia Keller]

And you're stuck in the wrong place.

[Guest]

Then the answer would be no.

[Julia Keller]

But if you're able to change and able to quit things that aren't working and go to something that is working better, then the answer would be yes.

[Co-host]

Well, I have to admit I haven't.

[Mike Carruthers]

Really thought all that much about this topic. I've always just kind of bought into the idea that quitting is never a great idea, that perseverance and grit are.

[Co-host]

Always the better option.

[Mike Carruthers]

But maybe not.

[Co-host]

I've been speaking with Julia Keller. She is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, novelist and author of the book A Life Strategy. And you'll find a link to her.

[Mike Carruthers]

Book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you, Julia.

[Co-host]

Thanks for being here.

[Julia Keller]

Thank you so much.

[Co-host]

I am a food lover. I love to cook. I've collected probably 100 cookbooks over the years. Good food is important to me. But some days I can't cook or I just don't want to cook. But I still want to eat well. Which is why I love and want to tell you about Factor meals. Factor meals are freshly prepared meals delivered to your door. And to be clear, these are not frozen meals. This is not a kit of ingredients that you have to make. These meals are complete restaurant quality meals. You simply heat them up for two minutes. Eating well has never been this easy. They have 45 weekly menu options. You can pick gourmet meals that fit your goals. Choose from Calorie Smart Protein plus Keto Vegetarian and more meals like Ginger Teriyaki Salmon, Cheesy Chicken and Broccoli Casserole, Garlic Rosemary Pork Chops. What we do at our house is we serve the food on nice plates, maybe with a glass of wine and I swear you would think you're eating at a fine restaurant. The food is really that good. Factor also offers satisfying breakfasts, lunches and guilt free snacks and desserts. So look, here's an offer that makes this easy to give it a try. Get [e-mail] something50off and use code something50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code [e-mail] something 50 off for 50% off plus free shipping and I'll put that promo code in the show. Notes I am a big fan of Shopify. They have been a longtime sponsor here and Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and they should be behind yours too because they get it right. If you run a business, you know as I do, that there are so many details that need your attention, it can be overwhelming. Finding the right tool that can handle a lot of those details and simplify the selling process, well, that's a game changer and it makes your life easy and helps you sell more, which is what Shopify does. Shopify handles 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark. If Mattel and Gymshark are using Shopify as their commerce platform along with millions of other businesses, shouldn't you be too? Shopify gets you up and running with your own design studio. They've got hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful online store and AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. If you've ever tried to build an online store, this has got to sound pretty tempting. Turn your big business ideas into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk.

[Mike Carruthers]

I have spent.

[Co-host]

Much of my life living near water. I am drawn to it. I like being near water. Lakes, oceans, rivers. Doesn't matter a whole lot to me what kind of water. I just like being around water And I guess I've always thought that was just a preference that I had personally, but apparently not. Seems pretty much everyone likes being around water. It has an effect, a desirable effect on just about everybody. This turns out to be something Wallace J. Nichols studies. Wallace is a senior fellow at the center for the Blue Economy in Monterey. He is a research associate at the California Academy of Sciences, and his work has been covered by npr, BBC, pbs.

[Mike Carruthers]

National Geographic, and many other media outlets.

[Co-host]

He's author of a book called Blue Mind the Surprising Science that Shows how being near in, on, or underwater can.

[Mike Carruthers]

Make you happier, healthier, more connected, and.

[Co-host]

Better at what you do. Hi, Wallace.

[Mike Carruthers]

Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Hey, it's great to be with you. My pleasure and honor.

[Co-host]

So you say it's fairly universal that people want to be near water.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's not just me. Everybody likes to be near water.

[Co-host]

But why?

[Mike Carruthers]

Because it's just pleasant to be around water? Or is the relationship between humans and water like a real thing?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

So, yes, it is a thing. It's deeply, innately part of being a human being on a water planet. We respond to water in all of its forms, immediately and instinctively. So we've exploited that in all kinds of ways in terms of modern society. But it really goes back to a deep evolutionary connection to water, which is if we don't have water for a week, we're done. And so, yes, it is a thing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why does the conversation not stop there and we go get lunch? Why is it a book and why is it a whole conversation on this podcast? Because you just made the case. And so. Okay, so now what?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Slam dunk, right? It's over. It was maybe a tweet, and that's about it. The reality is, it is maybe the most important conversation we could be having right now. Water helps us to relax, it helps us to be more creative. It helps to connect us to each other, it connects us to ourselves, and it is the basis of all life. So it is a big, wide reaching conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, let's look at some of the.

[Co-host]

Specifics you just mentioned.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, the idea of being near water, to be creative.

[Co-host]

It sounds, right?

[Mike Carruthers]

Like if I want to paint a picture, go down by the lake, and.

[Co-host]

The sound of the water will inspire my creativity.

[Mike Carruthers]

But is there some science here? Is it something other than it sounds, right?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Well, lots of people have had that experience of getting unstuck while sitting in a bathtub, that eureka moment, or standing in the shower, and you say, oh, that's it. That's the solution. That's The. That's the line. That's the lyric. That's the line of code. And what happens when we're by the water? It quiets down a lot of the background noise that can be distracting and take us off of the task at hand. Sitting by the water or floating on the water, or literally standing, soaking in the water switches us into this mode that I call blue mind that allows our brain to do things that we don't do as well. When we're distracted, when we're taking care of the busyness around us, when there are external screens or voices or leaf blowers or blenders or whatever's going on. When we get to the water, the water helps with that. It simplifies things and allows us to focus. So that's where the poetry occurs or the song lyrics or the insights. And we've all experienced it in different ways throughout our lives. But it's nice to tag it and say, this actually does work.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are there not people who. This does not apply.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

I have not met anyone yet, so if you can think of someone, feel free to offer. But I. I have. I like to ask people, what's your water? And then listen to their story. And I haven't met anybody that hasn't had a fascinating personal answer to that simple question. I'm looking. You know, I'm open to it. But there certainly, there are people who are scared of being in the water or underwater or who don't like to swim and don't like boats, but they do enjoy water in the way that they enjoy water, whatever that may be. Drinking it, sitting by it, listening to it, just looking out over it, taking a bath, taking a shower. We're not trying to make everybody a surfer or a scuba diver or an Olympic swimmer. It's meeting people where they live in terms of their water relationship.

[Co-host]

So when you ask people what's their.

[Mike Carruthers]

Water, what are some of the more unusual, interesting things you hear, it sometimes gets poetic.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

And people will say, my water is a. Someone, you know, they, they. They think of the person who took them to the water. I think of my father, and he taught us to swim when we were kids. So, you know, I can say my. My water is my father. He was. He was my guide. He was the bridge. Sometimes people refer to food. Food is mostly water. They'll say, well, my water is my garden. So it isn't always a majestic body of water or an immersive experience. It can be something much more subtle.

[Mike Carruthers]

But it does seem, though, that there are people like me who really like to be near water and seek it out. And other people who kind of like, you know, yeah, it's nice. I get it.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Yeah. Well, some people say I'm more of a mountain person. And I would say that's. That's great. And when you go to the mountains, is there snow? Are there lakes, maybe rivers or creeks? Do you gravitate to those places? And they say, well, as a matter of fact, I do. And, you know, it's just a short step from there to, well, that's water. That snow, that ice, that lake, that river. It's. It's not a competition between the mountains and the ocean.

[Mike Carruthers]

So in order to say that people.

[Co-host]

Want to be around water and that being around water has a positive effect on you, wouldn't you have to do.

[Mike Carruthers]

An experiment, some scientific research into people who are not around water and see the difference between them and people who are around water and make some sort of hypothesis as to what that difference is and why?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

We did this big experiment recently called the Pandemic, and people went into various kinds of lockdowns. And what we found is that people missed the water dearly. The people who had access to it fared better. The people who could go out their backyard and run to the beach or go to the lake or the river could walk to it. Those who had a hot tub, a spa, or a pool that they could access when we were in this lockdown mode. And then people freaked out when they shut down the beaches, and they said, no, you're not even allowed to go to the beach. You can't even swim. You have to stay away. And they started arresting people with their surfboards. That was a really interesting experiment, and people really got it. They said, wow, when you take that away from me, that made people really uncomfortable. We are water beings on a water planet, and when you cut us off from it, it feels bad.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there any sense, though, of. So we've talked about, people kind of crave or seek out water, that it's something that's kind of part of being human and can help your creativity. But what is it?

[Co-host]

Is it seeing it? Is it hearing it?

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there a sixth sense that you.

[Co-host]

Somehow perceive it's nearby?

[Mike Carruthers]

What is it exactly? Other than, yeah, it's nice to have some water over there?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Yeah. When we take it apart, we pull this concept apart into its components. Like, we like to do that as scientists and look at it through each of the senses. There's a special thing that water does related to each of our senses. Now, the way we experience it in fact, is all together. So you pull it apart to study it. But then the actual experience of Blue Mind is all of it together at the same time. So you taste it and you smell it and you hear it and you feel it. So if you jump into a body of water, you're getting the multisensory experience. If you're looking, merely looking, at a nice video of some waves on your laptop, it may be purely visual. If you turn up the volume, you might get the wave sound. That's nice. But it really goes to the next level when you use all of your senses. The somatic experience of water, of the water really surrounding you and touching all of your skin cells at the same time. The pressure of it, the buoyancy of it, the temperature of it. So it's all of that at the same time. And so as we pull it apart, we can kind of look at what makes it special in each of its components. But the experience of Blue Mind is a simultaneous sensory experience, and there's really nothing quite like it. I mean, really, the best comparison in our lives is to music. The way music can bring you up and take you down and move you and boost your creativity and pull your emotions around. And music that we like to get us going in the morning, and music that helps us relax and music that makes us sad. Other songs that make us happy. You can feel the music kind of hitting you when you're at a concert. Yeah, it's really the best comparison would be to music. Water and music together. Well, that's really extra special.

[Mike Carruthers]

But like music, I mean, there's water that may do things for you in a positive way, like sitting in a hot tub.

[Co-host]

But if you fall into a lake.

[Mike Carruthers]

That'S partially frozen and the water is freezing cold, it's not so pleasant to be around that water.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

That's right. You can play music that bothers you. Sometimes. My kids play music. It's not my style. Ask them to turn it down or turn it off. You can blow your eardrums out if it's too loud. It can be distracting and annoying. And like water, it's dangerous. There is a downside, and I think that tension adds to the experience that there's with the ocean. The ocean deserves our respect. A big river, a frozen lake, requires our knowledge and our respect in order to approach it correctly and safely. So that tension actually adds a component to this experience.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, you know, something's always. I find interesting is I used to have a house on a lake in Vermont and would go up there and Sit out on the balcony there and look at the lake and look at it for hours. I mean, just people would congregate out there if the lake wasn't there. If it was just trees and bushes and whatever, everybody wouldn't gravitate out there. There's something, and it isn't that it changes much. I mean, it's a lake, but, you know, the water's. The water, but it pulls you. You want to go out there, and I've never really understood why, but I always want to go out there.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Well, hope. And hopefully you're starting to understand why. And, you know, we started at the. How is this. How is this conversation any more than just a tweet? And now here we go. Now we're going down the path and understanding why sitting by that lake, it holds you in that place and pulls you back. And psychologists call it soft fascination. So it holds you in that place. It doesn't overwhelm you. The lake isn't chattering and telling you things and distracting you. It's holding your attention, though. It's giving you just enough visual and auditory stimulation that you go, this is. This is interesting, but it's not requiring you to process words and images and language and solve puzzles. So it allows you to kick back and create or have a conversation with someone you care about while being held in this place of soft fascination that's mildly mesmerizing and soothing and to kind of extend that. It also pulls us at romantic moments, at memorialization moments where we want to go deeper emotionally with someone or with a group of people, sacred vows or commitments to each other. So it's almost a cliche that ceremonies are held by the water and honeymoons go to the water and memorializations happen by the water. And we don't really think about that, but we just kind of go there to do those things, because the water brings this multisensory experience that doesn't overwhelm us. It's not like loud music or a big show. It's just the perfect backdrop to these important moments in our lives, from birth all the way through death.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's also interesting, too. If you look at real estate prices, you know, it's the houses on the beach that are the most expensive compared to the houses, you know, a mile inland. In. In a lot of coastal towns, it's the houses on the lake that are real expensive as opposed to the houses in town. It's so. So people know they want to be near water, and they're willing to pay more to be There.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

That's right. They will pay sometimes 1000% premium for that water view. In some locations on average across the U.S. it's a 40% premium. And it's lakes, rivers, oceans, bays, any kind of water, the proximity to water imparts a very significant financial or economic premium on real estate. And if you ask people why are you willing to pay, let's say double for, for this, they aren't exactly sure, but they are willing to pay it if of course they have the money. And sometimes when they don't, they'll go further into debt, pay a bigger mortgage in order to have this feeling. And so it's an emotional response that drives real world hard money decisions. And again, to me that's worth understanding a bit better because it's such a big part of who we are and the decisions we make and how we live.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. And there probably aren't, I can't think of a lot of other things like that that people would be willing to pay that kind of premium for.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

It's the biggest premium in real estate terms, of course. Access to good public transportation and good schools and great restaurants and so called green space parks. Yes, of course, we'd like those too. Walkability is an index that you see. Is the community walkable? That's really great too. There's a premium there. But you throw an ocean view outside your window and you know, in places like Del Mar, California, it's literally a thousand percent premium compared to that second row. The house right behind that one might be a million dollar house, but the one in the front row is a $10 million house. You go, what the heck is going on there that makes that premium pop so much? And you know, to my mind I just, I want to understand that better because it is such a strong driver of how we live.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, think about like on the weekends.

[Co-host]

Families will pile into the car and.

[Mike Carruthers]

Drive to the beach. Now there's not necessarily anything to do there other than play in the water, be near the water, make a sandcastle. But it's not like going to the movies or you know, where there's not only a destination but something to do.

[Co-host]

You go to the beach just to be at the beach.

[Mike Carruthers]

You just. Because there's something about being there that, that people like.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Right. And if you took that family that just piled it in the car together and pulled them aside, each one at a time and said, what are you getting out of this? You'd get a variety of answers. Maybe mom and dad are going to say this is de stress. It's a hard work week. It's been a rough month and I get a little bit of relief from, from my stressful life. The kids are going to go for the play part. It's joyful, it's playful, they get to run around, a sense of freedom. Maybe life in the city is just a little more boxed up, but life at the beach, you can run in every direction and you can jump in the water and you can dig and you can play and you can throw the ball, throw the Frisbee, whatever it is. Maybe you get to see dolphins, maybe you get to see crabs scurrying around. There's an element of play to it. And then in the evening, the sunset. And maybe there's some calm, romantic moment there that pulls people together. And then the other piece of this conversation, sleep comes on better. And people say they sleep better when they've spent the day in the water or near the water or they can hear the sound of the water. And that plays out in all these popular sleep apps. The number one downloads are ocean sounds, rain sounds, creek sounds, nature sounds. So we know that when we vacation by the water, we sleep better. And so all of that. And so that's why we pile into the car and take the journey and go to the edge of the water.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you've been studying this a long time. What's your finally here? What's your message?

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Well, I guess my mission in life right now is to make this common knowledge. I'd like every human being, all 8 billion of us, to understand their own blue mind and then apply it accordingly where they live and how they live.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I've always been one of those people who's attracted to water. I know lots of other people are attracted to water and yet I don't.

[Co-host]

Think I've ever talked about this with anyone before. So this has been really an eye opening conversation. I've been speaking with Wallace Nichols and the name of his book is Blue Mind the Surprising Science that shows how being near in on or underwater can.

[Mike Carruthers]

Make you happier, healthier, more connected and.

[Co-host]

Better at what you do.

[Mike Carruthers]

And there's a link to that book.

[Co-host]

In the show notes. Thanks, Wallace.

[Wallace J. Nichols]

Excellent. My pleasure.

[Mike Carruthers]

If your love life could use a.

[Co-host]

Boost, there are some things you can.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do outside the bedroom that can make.

[Co-host]

A big difference, according to Lou Padgett, who is author of a book called.

[Mike Carruthers]

The Great Lover Playbook.

[Co-host]

First of all, when your partner does.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something that makes you proud, say it.

[Co-host]

Out loud and tell other people about it too. Champion your lover and that gets noticed Pay attention. When your partner has something to say.

[Mike Carruthers]

Stop what you're doing and really listen.

[Co-host]

And get touchy. Holding hands, a longer embrace or spontaneous caress will get noticed when it's not expected. And kissing is one of the easiest ways to jumpstart your love life. Long term couples tend to fall into kissing routines, so consider switching up the routine a bit.

[Mike Carruthers]

Start kissing your partner the way you'd like to be kissed and that is something you should know.

[Co-host]

As any podcaster will tell you, word.

[Mike Carruthers]

Of mouth advertising is about the best, so the best way to support this.

[Co-host]

Podcast is to tell someone you know and ask them to give a listen.

[Mike Carruthers]

I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Ann Foster]

Have you ever heard about the 19th century French actress with so many lovers that they formed a lot lovers union? Or what about the aboriginal Australian bandit who faked going into labor just to escape the police? Which she did escape from them. It was a great plan. How about the French queen who murdered her rival with poison gloves? I'm Ann Foster, host of the feminist women's history comedy podcast Vulgar History. Every week I share the saga of a woman from history whose story you probably didn't already know and you will never forget after you hear it. Sometimes we re examine well known people like Cleopatra or Pocahontas, sharing the truth behind their legends. Sometimes we look at the scandalous women you'll never find in a history textbook. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts and if you're curious, the people I was talking about before the Australian woman is named Marianne Bug and the French actress was named Rochelle. No last name, just Rochelle. And the queen who poisoned her rival is Catherine de Medici. I have episodes about all of them.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

[Narrator]

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

[Amy Nicholson]

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

[Narrator]

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

[Co-host]

I don't he's too old.

[Amy Nicholson]

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

[Narrator]

It is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

[Narrator]

Must sees, and in case you missed.

[Amy Nicholson]

Ems, we're talking the Home Alone From.

[Narrator]

Grease to the Dark Knight.

[Amy Nicholson]

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

[Narrator]

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

[Amy Nicholson]

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

[Narrator]

Listen to unspooled wherever you get your.

[Amy Nicholson]

Podcasts, and don't forget to hit the follow button.