B (4:13)

Something YOU SHOULD Know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today.

A (4:22)

Something you Should Know with Mike Carothers hi, welcome to SOMETHING YOU should Know. One of the great things about the holiday season I think most people can agree on is all the smells that smell like the holidays. And the one smell I think that universally is loved is the smell of a Christmas tree. A pine tree. The power of pine is supposedly actually good for you. For centuries, some people have gone to great lengths to get access to ancient pine forests for their healing powers. The scent of pine has been found to reduce stress, hostility and depression. A 15 minute walk through a local Christmas tree farm exposes you to some powerful aromatherapy the old fashioned way. Be sure to take some deep, slow breaths as you stroll through the evergreens. That scent of pine can even help relieve chest congestion and supposedly soothe sore muscles. And that is something you should know.

A (5:29)

You may not have thought about this very much, but I have. And that is the magic of an audience. Think about it. When you watch a movie or a play or some other performance with other people as part of an audience, it is a very different experience than watching alone. For example, you might watch a comedy in a theater and laugh your head off along with the rest of the crowd. But watch that same movie by yourself in your living room, you're almost guaranteed not to laugh as much. Maybe not at all. Being part of an audience changes things. It is itself an experience. So what is it about audiences? How did someone even come up with the idea of putting people together in A group to watch something, and then how did the audience members learn what to do when they watched it? Here to discuss the power and the magic and the history of audiences is Robert V Agus. He is editor in chief of Encore Monthly, the national theater magazine, and he spent much of his career working at Playbill, the iconic theater program company. He's author of a book called Right this Way, A History of the Audience. Hi, Robert. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

B (6:45)

Hello, Michael.

A (6:47)

So I don't remember when I first realized the importance and the significance of an audience, but I do remember there's someone talking about it that made me think, like, you know, imagine a TV game show without an audience, or a late night comedy show without an audience. Like, the audience is not just there to watch it, it's part of it. It's part of the show. And when did you first kind of get in on this?

B (7:15)

Well, you know, I've been going to see things since I was a kid. And a lot of other people, I think they approach it, they feel like they're fish and water. They don't realize that they're in something, that they're part of something. And yet it's an incredible experience for people. You respond differently when you're part of an audience. And I noticed this early on. Now, I think I may have mentioned that I've seen more than 2,000 shows just on Broadway alone from my years at Playbill. But I've been member of movie audiences, television audiences, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm always acutely aware of how I'm experiencing things, not just as myself, but as part of an audience.

A (7:59)

Yeah, well, and think about how when you watch. Say something funny, when you watch it alone, you almost never laugh, but when you watch it with a group of people, it's funny. Or when you watch a football game on TV by yourself, you probably don't jump up and scream and yell, but if you have other people in your living room with you, there's something that happens, and I don't know what that is. Do you know what that is?

B (8:25)

Well, you gather significance from the people around you. Have you ever been in a show or a movie? They'll say a funny line and the whole audience will laugh. And you didn't laugh because, like, I don't get it. But then, like, one second later you get it, and it's the audience that told you that that thing was funny. And so you gather that kind of energy. I mean, look at these people who pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars to see Taylor Swift. Look at Taylor Swift. They could stay home, they could. They could watch your videos, they could listen to her albums. But they feel that there is some kind of special electricity that they get from being around other Taylor Swift fans. Being in the presence of Taylor Swift, having that experience as a group. Stephen King wrote a really interesting book called Danse Macabre about why people go to see horror movies. Something that they, you know, the things that are horror in horror movies, you would never want to happen in your own life or to even be present when that happens. But people consider it entertainment. Why? This was King's theory, that people go to measure themselves against what they see. They say, well, this is going to be a really scary Stephen King movie. I wonder if I could take it. I wonder if I'm strong enough to take it. And they go. And they see the movie and, like, it'll be a horrible murder scene. And you go, ooh, that was awful. That was awful. But I could live through it. I could survive it.

A (10:03)

Do we have a sense of the history of audiences? Like when somebody said, hey, why don't we put on a little show here and get some people to come and sit down and watch us? Because, you know, it kind of sounds weird when you say it that way, but somebody must have done something like that to say, let's make people watch us do something and see what they think.

B (10:24)

Well, you know, audiences had to be trained. Audiences had to learn how to be audiences. Back in the days of the Greeks, they loved poetry, and they would have poets who would speak poetry, and most of their poetry was about their gods and about their religion. And they became so popular, they would have one or two or sometimes three or sometimes a whole group of people. They would call it. They called it a chorus, and they would all say the poetry at the same time. And audiences loved this. And they would say, well, the God Zeus did this and Zeus did that. And then one day, there was one of these people in the chorus. It was a guy named Thespis. And if that name sounds familiar, this is where we get the word thespian from. Thespis did something incredibly radical. He walked in front of the chorus, and instead of saying, zeus did this, Zeus did that. He said, I am Zeus, and here is what I did. And people consider him the first actor. And I have to tell you, audiences were shocked. They were like, he's not Zeus. He doesn't look like Zeus. He just looks like a. He looks like Thespis from down the block. But after a while, it was like, well, you know, I don't know what Zeus sounds like, but I bet he sounds just like that. I think Thespis is doing a good job. And so audiences began to accept that actors, that performers could embody another character. And it's interesting, for a long time there was only one actor supported by the chorus. Then playwrights came along and said, I have an idea. We'll have two actors and they can argue with each other. And that whole idea of a chorus all speaking at the same time. Can you imagine going into a movie where all the actors were saying the same lines at the same time? It would sound weird. Ah, but if you're at a musical, they literally have a chorus and they do exactly what the Greek choruses did, except they sing it. And audiences accept that perfectly. Well, audiences have been trained now to accept that. There was a famous French movie that came out at the time when they first had movies. It was called the Arrival of a Train at La Citat. It was a very short movie and all it was, the audiences were just learning to watch these things and to accept them. It was just a train pulling into a station, and the train was coming right at the audience. But it looked. It wasn't a painted train. It wasn't actors wearing a train costume. It was a train, and it was coming straight at them. And people screamed in terror. They thought a train was coming at them. But after that, people laughed at themselves and they said, well, you know, we accept now that we could see a picture of a train, and we know it's not going to hurt us. And gradually, over the years, many, many other things that have been added to the way they create images, the way they create plays, et cetera. Audiences have gradually learned to respond in certain ways that they think now has always been there, but it hasn't.

A (13:36)

Is there any sense of when people started applauding?

B (13:41)

Yes. Well, the earliest reference that I could find to it is back in the days of the Roman Empire when a Roman general would be out on a campaign and was a successful campaign, which many of them were, when they would come back into Rome, they would have a parade and they called it a triumph. That's where we get the word triumphant from. They called it a triumph, and the general would march at the front. Sometimes, if they had defeated an enemy, the enemy would be dragged along in chains. And people were required to express their approval and excitement by banging their hands together. Now, if you think about it, it's an odd way to show that you like something just banging your Hands together. But people started to do it and it came to be applied to other things. And gradually it became the way that people expressed their approval of things. Similar with booing, things happened early on and there were different ways of booing. People have now kind of come to accept that yelling boo is the way to express disapproval. But if you think about it, I mean, it seems so natural, but if you think about it, it's actually kind of a weird way to express disapproval.

A (14:59)

Yeah. But what would be better because it seems to work now?

B (15:03)

Well, I'll tell you for a long time, and you've probably seen this in old movies and things, people would express their displeasure by throwing things at the actors, Literally throwing things at the actors. Even in the days of Shakespeare when he had what they called the groundlings, the people who would stand right in front of the stage and they would sell them hazelnuts and cockle shells. That was the snacks that they would eat. And if they didn't like what they saw on the stage, they would throw the shells. Throw the shells at the actors. Now that is one area where they were provided with that by the theater. Obviously not to throw at the stage, but when I see old movies of people throwing eggs at the stage or throwing rotten fruit at the stage, you kind of had to know that the show was going to be bad because who walks around with rotten fruit in their pockets?

A (15:54)

Right.

A (15:56)

You gotta pack your pockets before you leave the house with tomatoes and.

B (16:03)

Right. And they didn't have plastic bags in those days, so I imagine that their clothes were pretty much of a mess. You had to really dislike somebody, but dislike them so much that you would pay to show your hatred of them. Once again, weird audience behavior.

A (16:19)

We're talking about the psychology and the magic of audiences and my guest is Robert Villagas. He is editor in chief of Encore Monthly and author of the book Right this A History of the Audience. It's time for Cyber Monday, Dell technology's biggest sale of the year. That's right. You'll find the lowest prices of the year on select Dell PCs like the Dell 16 plus with Intel Core Ultra processors and with built in advanced AI features, it's the PC that helps you do more faster. From smarter multitasking to extended battery life. These PCs get the busy work done so you can focus on what matters most to you. Plus earn Dell rewards and enjoy many other benefits like free shipping, expert support, price match guarantee and flexible financing options. They also have the biggest deals on accessories that pair perfectly with your Dell PC, improving the way you Work, play and connect. Whether you just started holiday shopping or you're finishing up these PCs and accessories make the perfect gifts for everyone on your list. Shop now@dell.com deals and don't miss out on the best prices of the year. That's Dell.com deals.

A (17:48)

I want to tell you about a great new podcast I think you'll like. I'm loving it. So what happens when our passions become obsessions? Well, on David Greene is obsessed. One of America's most familiar voices and longtime CO host of NPR's Morning Edition seeks out obsessives of all kinds while unpacking his own fixations. You'll hear David talk to comedian Tig Notaro about her complex passion for plant based food. Actor David Arquette on his love of Bozo the Clown, Paula Poundstone on her House Full of Cats. Celebrity chef and author Michael Simon discusses why he just can't quit the Cleveland Browns even though they often make him miserable. And so much more. It's pop psychology disguised as conversations with the world's most fascinating people you can listen to. David Greene is obsessed wherever you get podcasts. So, Robert, have there been other ways that audiences have changed in terms of how they react or what they do or anything like that?

B (18:59)

Oh, absolutely. I'll give you an example how much audiences, even here in the United States have changed over the last hundred years? Okay. One hundred years ago, there was a form of entertainment called vaudeville, which was, you know, live variety entertainment. Actors would come in when there was a comedian, there was a dancer and there was a people would juggle, people would do special tricks, they would do rope tricks, they had animal acts, etc. People would come in and watch that. But I have to tell you that back in those days, one of the most popular forms of entertainment was ethnic entertainment. People would make fun of different ethnic groups. They had what they would call a Dutch comedian, which was a Jewish comedian. They would have Irish comedians. They would come in and they would do Irish accents. And there was a tremendous amount of blackface. This was one of for years they had a form of entertainment called minstrel shows where white actors would dress up as black actors. They would black up and they would tell, you know, why did a chicken cross the road? That sort of thing. And this was the most popular form of entertainment in this country. But at that same period of time, if you told a sexual joke, if you told a dirty joke, you would be, you'd be blackballed. You would not be able to work in vaudeville. They had very strict rules about what kinds of things that you could joke about and what you could not. All right, that was only 100 years ago. In the last hundred years, it has come 180 degrees. If you come out and tell a sexual joke, people laugh their heads off. There's children on sitcoms that do sexual humor. But at the same time, if you come out and you do an ethnic character, our sense of humor, what we consider to be funny, has changed so much in the last hundred years. And those are just a couple of examples.

A (21:01)

One of the things that fascinates me about audiences and comedians will often tell you this, that you can do the same act in front of an audience and kill one night and the next night bomb. And, yeah, it might be the performance is off a little bit, too, but audiences have a personality. It seems that some nights the audience is great, other nights the audience is not. And I don't know how anyone can explain that.

B (21:28)

Well, I know that on Broadway, which is most of my experience is with dealing with Broadway audiences, it is notorious among actors that Friday night performances are always the worst. Friday night audiences are always the worst. Usually they've been working all day, they're exhausted. They may have had a couple of pops on their way in, and they tend to be. They tend to do what's called sitting on their hands. They don't applaud, they don't laugh. It's very, very hard to get a Friday night Aud rolling. Good actors are able to do it, but it's hard.

A (22:02)

Is there anything else about the group mentality of audiences that. Because, you know, what's interesting to me is if you go to watch a play or even a movie with a lot of people in the audience, you become this part of this oneness of the audience. But when the lights come on, you don't go, hey, wasn't that great? You still don't talk to anybody, but during the show, you were all in this together. And then when the show's over, it's, you know, okay, I don't need to talk to you or see you ever again.

B (22:35)

You become.

B (22:37)

A creature. It's interesting how unanimous audiences can be when something funny happens. You don't, like, get half the audience laughing and the other half of the audience growling. Audiences tend to pick up energy from the other people sitting with them, and they tend to reach unanimity. I remember.

B (22:58)

Talking to playwrights. One thing that became very popular in the 90s was to do a play and then afterward have a talk back where people could raise their hands and ask Questions about the play or give comments on the play, etc. And I spoke to a playwright who once said, individual audiences are always wrong, but the audience is a group, is always right. And that's why a lot of these people, instead of having talkbacks, they'd rather just sit out in the audience and just listen. Movies do this too.

B (23:33)

They do audience reaction. They have. Instead of just asking one or two people, they will sit there in the back and they will watch the audience watch the movie. And the reaction that they. The group reaction is more significant than individual comments because a big audience will somehow reach a magical consensus just from being in the same room together.

A (23:58)

It also seems that the room, the theater, the space in which you're watching something has something to do with how people react.

B (24:09)

You probably heard in New York, they have what's called Broadway, Off Broadway and Off Off Broadway. And primarily those are based on how many seats are in the house. And you'll sometimes see a show, they'll open on Broadway and people will say, you know, this was really. This needed to be in a smaller theater. It needed to be in an Off Broadway house. This is really an Off Broadway show. They should never have brought it to Broadway. There was a Pulitzer Prize winning play a few years ago called Driving Miss Daisy. Driving Miss Daisy only has three characters in it. When they did it originally off Broadway, it was in a tiny little theater. A tiny little. A very intimate Off Broadway theater. When it went on tour.

B (24:52)

It played these big houses that were designed for musicals. And I remember talking to the actors who were performing in it, and they said, we really have to open up our performances.

B (25:05)

We have to use our bodies more. We have to project our voices a lot more. We have to make the characters broader so that audiences could see and they could experience what the characters were like. I mean, look at the difference between stage performing and movie performing. In stage performing, people, you know, they're sitting out in the house, they're sitting some distance away. Whereas in movies. Movies a camera can get right into the actor's face and you can see the actor, like lifting one eyebrow to express something if that actor. A lot of times when movie and TV actors try to appear on Broadway, they'll give you that little eyebrow raise in the middle of a performance, and people will be able to see it out to about the fourth row. And everybody else in the house were like, why isn't he doing anything? In the old days, they used to have a style of acting that was called Delsarte and Delsarte. They would Tell the actors to do certain movements that would express certain emotions. And the audience learned that. Like when an actor would tilt their head back and put the back of their hand up against their forehead, that meant they're sad and the audience. And it was something that could be seen all the way in the back of the balcony.

A (26:24)

You know, it's interesting today when you go to a movie, at the movie theater, just before the movie starts, they play that little clip that it says, you know, please silence your phone, please don't talk, please don't text, please don't spoil the movie. People didn't used to have to be told that, but now they do.

B (26:42)

They're so used to, like, watching things in their living room, taking their shoes off. If they see something funny.

B (26:51)

They'Ll explain it to the person next to them. They've become used to that and it's hard for them to change lanes and go into an audience where there are different expectations that they don't know about.

A (27:05)

I wonder how technology is going to change what it means to be an audience member.

B (27:13)

Everybody always thinks that the technology level we've gotten to is as far as they're going. I am just going to be fascinated to watch the way audiences evolve over the next 20, 30, 40 years.

A (27:27)

Well, this is fun because I think people, once they hear you, next time they go see something as part of an audience, we'll pay attention to the audience and notice how it reacts as a group. And I think it's really fun. My guest has been Robert Villeagas. He is editor in chief of Encore Monthly and he is author of a book called Right this A History of the Audience. And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Appreciate you coming on. Thanks, Robert.

B (27:55)

Mike, thanks so much for having me on the show. It's a great show. You are a great interviewer and I had a ball talking about audiences with you, with your audience.

A (28:05)

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A (31:28)

Uncertainty. The word itself doesn't feel comfortable. We like certainty. We like people who seem sure of themselves. Lack of certainty seems kind of wishy washy. But there may be a different way to look at uncertainty. That maybe facing the world with a little less certainty might be a good thing. That's according to Maggie Jackson she's an award winning author and journalist who's been featured in the New York Times, Business Week, Vanity Fair, the Times of London, and she is author of a book called.

A (32:04)

The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. Hi Maggie, welcome to something you should know.

C (32:10)

Great to be with you and your audience.

A (32:12)

So explain what you mean by being unsure because I think my initial reaction when I saw it and I think most people's reaction is, well, what could be good about that? We like people who know what they're talking about or who appear to know what they're talking about, who are sure of everything. So what do you mean unsure? Let's define the term.

C (32:34)

Well, uncertainty, you're right, gets a very bad rap. I mean it's sort of seen as synonymous with weakness and inertia. And yet I'm arguing the opposite. And science, the science is proving that uncertainty is really a path to flourishing and better decision making. But you're right, it's important to define uncertainty. We often talk about the uncertainty that is a shorthand for the unknowns out there. We really don't know if it's going to rain despite all the models and forecasts that we have. And that's a kind of uncertainty that we've tackled for hundreds of years through mathematical, probabilistic, kind of tactics that allow us to get likelihood. I'm talking about our uncertainty and that is the human response to the unknown. And so what is how do we feel or how do we respond when we confront something new, ambiguous, muddy, murky, etc.

A (33:36)

So give me an example of what you're talking about because I'm not sure I quite get it, but maybe a concrete example would help.

C (33:43)

Sure. Well, when you perhaps hit the unexpected traffic snarl up and you're in a hurry on the way to a meeting, or you're on the first day of a new job, you're faced with something new and unexpected and you don't know what's going on. And that's precisely the moment when you're unsure. And that is you've reached the limits of your knowledge. You suddenly realize that the old ways of life or your old expectations aren't going to be sufficient and you need to update your knowledge of the world. That's when we are uncertain. And the science of the what really happens in that unsettling moment is fascinating because it feels uneasy and we have a tremendous stress response to uncertainty. That makes sense because we evolved to need answers. So when we're put in that spot, you know, when we're on the Spot with, with being uncertain, we actually, you know, feel stressed. But while your heart might beat and you're, you know, you might sweat a bit, at the same time, there are these astonishing changes in the brain that are remarkably positive. And for instance, your focus widens and your brain becomes more receptive to new knowledge. Your working memory actually is bolstered when you're in that uncertain moment. And so the brain, as one neuroscientist told me, is telling itself, there's something to be learned here.

A (35:15)

So when I'm stuck in traffic and I'm late for my appointment and I'm uncertain how late I'm going to be or what the problem is or why I'm sitting here and I'm getting angry, it doesn't feel like that's a positive.

C (35:28)

Anything, partly because we equate that uncertainty with this negative condition. But at the same time, if you can sort of understand that uncertainty is a moment of vigilance, it's not an easy thing. It's actually challenging to wake up from the status quo, from your expectation. You thought you were going to get there on time. You thought that maybe this job wouldn't have mean boss or whatever, but your expectations are broken. That's exactly when the human being learns. That's why babies seek out what's surprising in their environment. So uncertainty, if we don't cut short the opportunity to be uncertain, then we can learn. It's actually the foundation, the stepping stone to learning, and it's really important. And one illustration comes from a study of CEOs in Europe when the European Union was expanding. And two business school professors studied and surveyed and interviewed 100 CEOs in Western Europe about this change. And a great group of them were very sure about what was going to happen. This was going to be good for their company or this was going to be bad for their company, they were sure. But other third group in the mix were. They were ambivalent and they weren't quite sure of whether it would result in more customers or higher prices, etc. A year later, the business school professors came back. The ambivalent CEOs had been more resourceful and they had been more inclusive. They listened to more voices. In other words, they actually inhabited and explored and investigated the space of uncertainty. In other words, uncertainty is about possibility.

A (37:18)

In order to get the benefits of that that you're talking about. Because very often when you're feeling uncertain, you're feeling uncertain about something, you're unsure, it doesn't feel necessarily good. Do you need to get rid of that feeling in order to let the benefits come in, or do both things exist in tandem or what?

C (37:40)

Well, uncertainty is a signal, and as I mentioned, it's good stress. It means you're on your toes. It means you're alive to the circumstances. And one of the most important points is that it's not just a preface to good thinking, it's actually an accompaniment. So, for instance, experts, let's just take the, you know, the example of expertise. We gain expertise by accruing knowledge, putting in those 10,000 hours, so to speak, and we gain mental models of just what to do. The doctor thinks chest pain, that means heart attack. And so that kind of expert. And that's a great thing, that's really impressive in predictable situations. But when something new happens and here comes the wakefulness of uncertainty again, actually, the more adaptive expert is one who spends more time investigating this new, complex, messy problem than even novices. And they also evaluate different options, and also don't just evaluate one option. So the adaptive expert is nimble in the crisis because they're inhabiting that space of uncertainty.

A (38:55)

When I think about uncertainty in my own life and your example of stuck in traffic and not sure why, it's often accompanied by frustration and anger. Because you're unsure, you'd like to be sure, you're not sure, and it makes you frustrated. Do you need to, like, get rid of the frustration first in order to deal with the uncertainty in a positive way, or do they kind of go hand in hand or what?

C (39:23)

There is a difference between being fearful of uncertainty, and that includes being angry at the fact that something's uncertain. There's a personality measurement, a disposition called intolerance of uncertainty. Now, people who are intolerance of uncertainty, who tend to be more rigid thinkers, who tend to dislike surprises, actually feel like something that is unexpected or ambiguous is unfair. I hear that quite a bit from scientists. Whereas it. If people are able to lean into uncertainty, and that is see it as a challenge, not a threat, they're actually more flexible thinkers. And that's a really important distinction. So uncertainty always might give us a little prickle of unsettling unease if we can recognize that that's actually helping us think better, think more widely, be on top of things. That's a great starting point.

A (40:23)

And I guess that's kind of what I was getting at in kind of a weird way is that there are seemingly people who are so rigid that uncertainty would be much more difficult than people who are a little more. Go with the flow. Well, let's take a look, that it's a personality thing as well as a brain thing, that how you are wired will dictate in some regard how well you deal with uncertainty.

C (40:52)

Precisely. And that is a great point too, because there are a few things I could say about this. One is, yes, we're all maybe not born, but we're all shaped to be somewhere on the spectrum of eager, tolerant of uncertainty. However, uncertainty is also, as well as a dispositional trait, it's also situational. So it's really important to understand that when we're tired, when we're in situations where we feel compelled to be in an answer, you know, you're the new person in the room around the conference table and you feel like you really should say something. You're more likely to be intolerant of uncertainty. So you're more likely to make a snap judgment. You're more likely, you know, you're less likely to see the nuances around you, to see the complexity, et cetera. So it's important to, to show that each of us has a disposition. It's situational, but at the same time it's changeable. So as I was mentioning, we can all practice uncertainty. One of the exercises in a program that's going to be starting up in Columbus, Ohio to teach resilience to high schoolers is just to have them answer their cell phone without caller id. Wow. And that seems so simple. But that's just a great example of how sometimes we build in this day and age, especially with technology, certainty seeking answers into our day. You know, GPS and you know, the app for the weather. I mean, I've become an all year round the season, you know, around the year, all season, open water swimmer. I move to the shore during the pandemic and I can look at the app until I'm blue in the face, but I don't know what I'm going to get when I'm down by that ocean. It always surprises me. And even in the half an hour that I'm swimming, there are changes. And I now think of it as a daily dose of uncertainty. You know, it's a real game changer when you can begin to see that uncertainty is something that is a wonderful signal that you don't know and now you can investigate. In fact, uncertainty is actually highly related to curiosity. And so the component of curiosity that's probably most important of the curious disposition is again this tolerance of the unknown. We think of curiosity as being this childlike, wondrous, almost easy thing to be. But no, it Also includes that unsettling discomfort because you are moving beyond the edge of what?

A (43:38)

You know, I think part of when I think about uncertainty, part of the reason that I think people don't like it or are uncomfortable with it is it doesn't really go anywhere that at some point you have to make up your mind. You have to be certain about something in order to move forward onto something else. And to sit with uncertainty like, well, so how long do I sit here? How long do we contemplate this? How long do we stay uncertain before we make a decision?

C (44:10)

Well, yes, and of course I'm not arguing for, and no one would argue for irresolution and indecision as the goal. It's just that when we sort of shut down on the opportunity to be uncertain, when we close our mind quickly, we're actually shutting down on opportunities to basically explore all the possibilities, or at least many more possibilities than just one. And another component of uncertainty that's really important and then also maybe a little unsettling is that it involves pausing. It does involve slowing down. When a group is collaborating and someone offers a note of dissent, that is the best possible path to better collaboration. But it slows the group down because it's keeping them from rushing to judgment. It involves deeper discussions, more intense complexity of discussions.

A (45:17)

It also seems that when we see uncertainty in others, it can drive you crazy. Like if you're at a restaurant and someone takes forever to figure out what they're going to order because they're not certain. It's like, come on, come on, make up your mind, let's go. We got to move on, we got to order and eat here. When we see it, especially maybe in others, it makes us even more uncomfortable because it's not our uncertainty, it's somebody else's. And I'm already certain what I'm going to order and they're just hemming and hawing.

C (45:49)

Yes. And I think that partially speaks to the trade offs with uncertainty, that it does.

C (46:01)

Demand a certain amount of investment in time, just as anything that gets you past just the first knee jerk answer does. I mean, maybe we can reframe it. And if you're watching your friend having a little bit of distraction decision, it might come from part of their life, they're in a new diet or what have you. So we, we can see that uncertainty with compassion. We can also see it as a chance to listen as they debate various possibilities, even if it's just on a restaurant menu. And they might find something there that you hadn't Seen because you all, you know, maybe the person who decides first and, and, and most quickly at the restaurant is the person who always gets the same dish every time.

A (46:41)

Right.

C (46:42)

Well, that's actually not contending with uncertainty.

A (46:45)

Well, it's interesting how people push back against uncertainty, I guess, because if you're uncertain, then you don't know how things are going to work out. But things have a tendency to work out, and we often worry about uncertainty, perhaps too much because. Well, because I just said things have a tendency to work out.

C (47:07)

Yes, exactly. And I would say that helicopter parenting is a search for uncertainty that's in vain. Basically, parents are using incredible surveillance techniques, technology enabled surveillance techniques to constantly keep tabs on their kids. And we can debate all day about whether the world is unsafe or not safe. And I'm not saying that this doesn't have a place in modern life, but at the same time, are we really trying to search for certainty where there can't be any, and then in doing so, kind of stifling our kids and also not getting to know them?

A (47:49)

As I think about it, all the technology that we use today, particularly all of it that's in our phone, is like this quest to rid ourselves of uncertainty. So you keep track of where your kids are, you know, how long it's going to take to get to someplace, you know, the directions, you know what the weather's, you know, everything. So all the uncertainty is gone.

C (48:15)

Exactly. And I think we even can question whether or not it's just a facade of certainty that we have. You know, basically when we can realize that even the answer that we gain is provisional in life, that even the certainties that we hold dear are really not etched in stone.

A (48:38)

Well, the quest for certainty, when you think about it, is so elusive because, I mean, think about somebody who checks their phone every 10 minutes because they want to know, is somebody trying to get a hold of me? Is something happened? Is my kids okay? Well, that's good for maybe 10 minutes. And then you do it again, and then you do it again, and then you do it again. So you're never certain. As soon as you're certain.

A (49:02)

Two seconds later, something could happen. And now you're uncertain again. So it's like you can never get it. And yet we never stop trying to get it.

C (49:11)

Yes, and that's why uncertainty helps us be nimble and agile. And that doesn't mean we're, you know, insecure or feeling that life is quicksand. Rather, it means we grow stronger as we wake up to life, as it is and rather than life as we assume it to be or wish it to be. And that's a really important way to, you know, to discover a more flourishing life as well as it's a very important way to relate to one another. I mean, one of the ways in which I have learned from uncertainty in my personal life is that, you know, when one of my daughters was upset, you know, my younger, I would try to just give her an answer or sort of, you know, say, it'll be okay. And in essence I thought this was, you know, either cheering her up or helping her out. But in essence I realized in retrospect it was kind of shutting down her ability to be in that moment and investigate and then reflect. And I was shutting down that kind of ability to be in the uncomfortable middle space between question and answer.

A (50:28)

Well, I like what you said about, you know, this quest for certainty is really an illusion. I mean, we're as certain as we think we are. We're never that certain. And maybe embracing uncertainty and being unsure opens up other possibilities. I've been speaking with Maggie Jackson. She is a journalist and author and the name of her book is Uncertain the Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for coming on today, Maggie. I enjoyed talking to you.

C (50:59)

Oh, thank you. Really wonderful, interesting conversation and I'm glad to be pushed on the points that you wanted to clarify. That's really helpful for me to understand.

A (51:11)

Around the holidays especially. But really, anytime, it would always be nice to be able to get more done in less time. Well, here are three simple ways to do just that from productivity expert Don Wetmore of the Productivity Institute. Three things. First, have a plan. Have a daily plan will make anyone more productive. Yet fewer than one out of four people actually do it. Even a simple to do list will make a difference. Plan to get a lot done. If you only plan one thing to do, it will take all day to do it. When you pack your day with tasks, it creates a healthy pressure to be more productive and clean up your workspace. Studies show that working in a messy environment will cause you to waste an hour a day being distracted. Organize your desk and get that hour back and that is something you should know. Something I really enjoy and find very helpful and useful is reading the reviews people leave for of this podcast. It does a lot of things. It helps our visibility, it shows people that other people are reviewing it, and it also just gives us insight into what people think of the work we do. So if you have a moment. Leave a rating and review on whatever platform you're listening on and I'll be sure to read it. I'm Micah Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

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