Ramit Sethi (5:41)

Thanks for having me back.

Mike Carruthers (5:43)

So let's start with this question. Why do you think that money is such a touchy subject for couples? Why do couples avoid it or don't talk openly about it? That it's just. It's something we'd really rather not discuss.

Ramit Sethi (5:59)

The biggest reason is that we usually only talk about money when we fight. Think about it. Someone is a spender, someone is a saver. You end up looking at the credit card bill. You go, how could you spend that much? And then you go to sleep, paper over it and wait for the next fight to happen six weeks later. And most couples do this for the next 40 years. There's got to be a better way to talk about money that makes it positive and fun.

Mike Carruthers (6:29)

Yeah, well, when you explain it that way, who wouldn't want to do that? Who wouldn't want to make the topic fun? Because it's a topic, whether you discuss it or not. It's there. It's there, and it's either going to be trouble or if there's a way to make it fun, then let's make it fun.

Ramit Sethi (6:45)

Yeah, it's kind of crazy. I mean, think about the fact that most of us, we have this deep, invisible belief in America that money is unromantic. And the reason I got so interested in money and couples is that it is one of the last taboos. You know, many of us would rather talk about our sex lives than how much money we make, how we spend it, are we on track for retirement? And when you start to shine a light on these things, not just with one person's money, but a couple's money, you start to unravel a series of invisible expectations. I just find it incredibly juicy, and it's incredibly fun to watch couples finally develop a shared vision of a rich life.

Mike Carruthers (7:32)

Well, it does seem, and you know, I can speak from my own experience, but also just from talking to other people, that a big part of the problem is because so much goes unsaid, undiscussed assumptions are made. And I know what I think you should do, but I don't ever tell you. And that we just don't sit down and talk about.

Ramit Sethi (7:55)

It starts when we're dating. Many couples, when they're dating, they don't have serious conversations about money. In fact, there's only really three or four moments in a couple's entire life that they really talk about money. One of them is when they buy a house. Another one if they do. Another one is if they have Children you skip over to about age 58 when they start to think about retirement. And then often it's death. I mean, that's it. Four times over the course of an entire lifetime that we talk about money. I don't like that. I think money is not about having the conversation. It's about having a series of regular, positive, proactive conversations, and there's no reason to apologize for it.

Mike Carruthers (8:46)

My sense is you don't want to talk about it because here's what's going to happen, or here's the fear of what might happen is I'm going to want to do this and you're going to want to not do that, and then we're going to argue about it, because I want to spend money, and you want to save money, or you want to spend it on this, and I want to spend it on that, and then it turns into a fight, and we can just avoid that by staying quiet.

Ramit Sethi (9:10)

Oh, bingo. You nailed it. Mike. I think the biggest mistake couples make with money is that they don't have a shared vision of a rich life. That's it. That's end all, be all. You'll have one person who likes to travel more, the other doesn't. So they'll go the next 40 years fighting about taking a trip, or one person likes to buy monster energy drinks and the other thinks it's ridiculous. They'll literally fight about it for 25 years, and I'll ask them, what is your rich life? And they look at me like I'm crazy. Rich life. We're just trying to pay our bills. I go, you can't live a rich life if you're spending the next 30 years fighting about celery at the grocery store. So one of the best techniques you can use as a couple is to zoom up. Put all the arguments aside about credit card debt or traveling and just say, what is our rich life? It might be we want to travel twice a year. It might be we want to send our kids to camp. It might be I want to spend Saturdays just watching tv. That's okay. Start there. And as you start to change money from a negative thing into a positive conversation, one of possibility, suddenly you have a vision to work towards. And now you can say, does it make sense to buy that car or that house? Or should we eat out five times a month or 10? Now we have something that we are working towards.

Mike Carruthers (10:38)

But what happens to those arguments about the monster energy drink? They're still there.

Ramit Sethi (10:44)

I like to be specific. In all my books, I always give word For Word scripts, I give the exact way to set your accounts up as a couple. And when you set your accounts up using my setup, each of you has your own separate account with no questions asked. Money. So whether it's 100 bucks or 5,000 bucks a month, that's TBD based on your income. But you and your partner will each have your own money. If you want to spend it on monster energy drinks three times a day, you want to have a heart attack by the time you're 41, that's your prerogative. You've got the money, it's in your own account, and your partner will not ask you any questions because you are using the money from your individual account.

Mike Carruthers (11:29)

When you have your first conversation, how do you prepare for that? How does it start? Because that's what keeps people from doing it, I think, is how it's uncomfortable to imagine sitting down and having this discussion. So walk me through it.

Ramit Sethi (11:48)

I call it your first positive conversation about money. And that's because whether you are dating or whether you've been married for 30 years, many couples have not actually talked about it in a way that feels good. And so your first positive conversation has four parts, and it's very simple. The first is you introducing the concept. You might say something like, you know what? I realized that when we talk about money, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel like we're connecting. And honestly, sometimes I think I get a little too negative. I would love to change that. What you're doing there is. You're sharing some vulnerability. You're kind of opening up the conversation next. When we talk about money, right now, I feel overwhelmed. I feel stressed. How about you notice that I'm admitting how I feel, and then I'm tossing the ball to my partner because we want a dialogue next. I want to feel positive, in control. I want to feel connected. How about you get their thoughts? And then finally, when should we talk next? That's it. Notice I did not pull out a budget. I certainly didn't talk about credit card debt. It was just a recalibration. And at the end, you look at your partner, you give them a hug and a kiss and say, I love you. That's it.

Mike Carruthers (13:07)

So on a practical level, like, how long is this conversation? Because I'm fearing that it's, like, hours and.

Ramit Sethi (13:14)

No, no, no, no. So what? This conversation is no longer than 15 or so minutes. It's short. This is one of the. The key myths that we have with money, is that we need to get everything out on the table in one conversation. It's like, who wants to do that? Think about when you're going on your first date. You don't need to tell your whole life story. You just need to see if you like them and if they like you. Same thing with money. In fact, I would suggest never using some of the following words in your early conversations. Budget, retirement, debt. You really need to those kinds of things. We don't want any of that. We don't want negativity or restriction. We just want to start off with positivity. It's about recalibrating our relationship with money and really deep down with each other.

Mike Carruthers (14:03)

We're talking about couples and how they handle money. My guest is Ramit Sethi, author of the book Money for Couples.

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Mike Carruthers (16:05)

So Ramit, it seems like listening to you talk about this, that it really requires like a shift. Like, rather than talking about money as a problem that needs to be solved, it's much more of a proactive activity to plan ahead.

Ramit Sethi (16:22)

You can hear in my voice, I think money's fun. I think it's exciting. When a lot of people hear the word money, they think of a budget. Budget and decimal places. When I think of money, I see a family trip to Disneyland. I see Saturday with the kids. So we want to reframe what money is to us. And one of the things you can do is something I call the 10 year bucket list exercise. You both sit down, you go, hey, in our next 10 years, what would be an amazing set of things we could do to give us a rich, meaningful life? Write them down independently, then compare notes. Have some fun. Oh my God. You want to go skydiving? I'll meet you on the ground with some champagne. But pick one that's exciting for both of you and then decide when you want to do it, how much it's going to cost, and if it's eight years from now, it's going to be X dollars. You can start automatically saving for it. This is how you start to use money to live your rich life and get beyond just paying bills.

Mike Carruthers (17:25)

What about the issues? In fact, the one you just mentioned, Skydiving. You want to go skydiving? Well, I don't want you to go skydiving. I don't want your parachute not to open and die. So now we're at odds about that. There are some things that you might want to do that that's fine for you, but I don't want you to do that. I don't want us to do that, because I don't.

Ramit Sethi (17:51)

This is a great thing to bring up because a lot of couples don't agree on everything and that is fine. As an example, my wife loves self care. It's her money dial. A money dial is the thing you love to spend money on. I'm not really into it that much. My money dial is beautiful hotels. I love beautiful hotels. She doesn't really care about it. So you can have a very successful relationship with money. Even if both of you don't want to spend money on exactly the same things, that's fine. What's important is you have a high level of a rich life vision, like how much do we want to save? What's important to us? Things like where do we want to live? What kind of car do we want to drive? Those are important because they're big purchases. But when it comes to things like self care, my wife, for example, would spend most of that money out of her own individual account. And for us, when we take trips, you can create a way of doing it. For example, we might have our joint account pay for most of our hotel. And then if I want to stay at an extra nice place, I might take some of my individual money and put it towards that. In other words, you can still have a very rich life, even if the two of you don't agree on everything.

Mike Carruthers (19:09)

Where do you find specifically? What are the things that the stumbling blocks here, the bumps in the road that couples run into?

Ramit Sethi (19:17)

Mike, this is one of the crux. One of the most surprising things about my work over the last 20 years is literally, couples will spend their entire lives fighting about coffee. And when I point out that coffee has virtually no effect on their finances, they're just completely stunned. I want to give you a few statistics that are absolutely shocking. It's going to be hard to believe, but it's true. Number one, of all the couples I speak to, 50% of couples do not know their household income. 55. Zero. That's not a typo. Think about it. You're going 10, 15 years arguing about who spent too much at Target, but you don't even know your household income. Almost nobody knows what percentage they invest every month, their investment rate. That question alone is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Not the price of potatoes. 90% of couples who are in debt don't know how much debt they're in. And 100% of couples with credit card debt, 100 struggle to say no to their kids. Because it's the same principle that gets you into credit card debt that often prevents you from saying no to your kids. These are all way more important than how much you're spending on lattes. And that is what I want people to start to focus on the important things, not just the urgent things.

Mike Carruthers (20:36)

You know, just this idea of talking about money. And what you're talking about is just a couple talking about their finances. But we have, in our culture, this kind of money's not something you talk about. You don't talk about money with anybody. That's not polite.

Ramit Sethi (20:55)

The things we talk about are the things that we stick to. If in your family fitness is important, you talk about it all the time. If family is important, you Talk about it all the time. But with money, we rarely do, especially with kids around. Many people deep down believe that money is bad and evil, and they should, quote, protect their kids from money. Wrong. Wrong. We talk about money all the time. So one way to do it is to set up a monthly money meeting. This is you and your partner. You have an agenda, and each of you contributes to it. You can rotate who runs the meeting. And in this meeting, you always start with a compliment. Always. Hey, babe. I really love how every time we travel, you always find the best seats for us on the airplane. I love knowing that I can trust you. Feels good. It totally recalibrates our relationship. You go over any key numbers. I have some very specific numbers that you track. Each of you owns a couple of those numbers. And. And then you talk about the future, what's coming up. What do we need to know? Is our dishwasher breaking? All that kind of stuff every single month you do this, it becomes something not to avoid, but something that actually connects you two together.

Mike Carruthers (22:13)

So let's talk about credit card debt, because that is a big elephant in the room that, you know, people make their minimum payments, perhaps, and so the elephant is fed for the month, but it's still a big elephant in the room.

Ramit Sethi (22:28)

Like I said, most people in debt do not know how much debt they are even in. And in fact, people in credit card debt, over time, they come to get used to it. It's like having a. A wound on your arm. At first, it's incredibly painful, and after a while, you forget that it's even painful. It's just, you learn to live with it. To me, there are some things in a relationship that are massive red flags. You should stop everything and solve this right away because it is an emergency. Credit card debt is one of those things you can solve. Credit card debt, you can definitely pay it off. And many people can pay off their credit card debt way faster than they ever thought. Way faster. Just as one example, if you have a lot of credit card debt, paying even an extra $100 a month can shave that payment down by years. The math is very counterintuitive, so the first thing to do is acknowledge it. Hey, we have credit card debt. This is a problem, but we're going to get through it. The second is to get the numbers. You got to know your numbers, how much you have, what's the interest rate, what is the debt payoff date. This is scary. It's kind of like people who go to the doctor for the first time in 20 years. They're afraid of what they might hear, but you got to do it. Shine a light on it. And then three, you make a debt payoff plan. You do this together, you avoid gimmicks. Lots of people, when it comes to paying off debt, they will do everything except setting up automatic payments to pay off their credit card. They do balance transfers, they do this, they do that. Okay, you can try it if you want, but really it's about paying off your debt and doing it together. When you do this and when you use something like my conscious spending plan, it becomes very obvious how much you have, how much, how much you need to pay off, and when you're going to be free. And free is an amazing feeling.

Mike Carruthers (24:18)

But you also have to change your behavior, because if you keep spending money and putting it on your credit card, you'll never get there.

Ramit Sethi (24:26)

Exactly right. And that's why with couples, you can't just do it alone. It would be like one person going on a massive fitness transformation and the other is still eating pizza and chicken wings. It just doesn't work. You've got to do it together. So that's why, number one, you gotta use the scripts to connect the two of you come together and go, hey, what is our rich life? It's doing this, it's seeing our grandparents, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, cool. Well, in order to do that, right now we're paying X hundred dollars a month towards credit cards. We can't afford that stuff right now. Let's make a plan. Most of us, we're very passive with our money. But when you understand money, you realize, oh, my God, I can actually affect a lot of this myself. I can pay it off. I can even pay it off more aggressively. I could cut costs over here. So you gotta. There's two steps to living a rich life. The first, you gotta know your numbers. That means you have to understand the basic language of finance. And number two, you have to master your money psychology. What I mean by that is you've gotta start finding a way to feel good about money. And both of you have to talk about it regularly, positively, proactively. If you do those two things. Know your numbers, master your money psychology, you can live a very rich life even if you have credit card debt.

Mike Carruthers (25:46)

It is such an important topic, and it does seem that certainly a lot of people just don't talk about it, don't want to talk about it, just kind of hope for the best.

Ramit Sethi (25:58)

Hope is not a strategy, okay? We are adults, and it's actually possible. And it's fun to engage with money. That's why I love talking to these couples. You can see them. Most of us, we spend our entire lives working, and if we just understood money just a little bit more, it's often possible that you will have more money than you ever imagined. Now, that might seem crazy. Like, what are you talking about? We're just trying to pay our bills. Well, I would ask you, have you do you understand your investment rate? Do you know your savings rate? Do you know how much money you need for retirement? The vast majority of people will say no to every one of those questions. Then how do you know you're behind? The answer is you've got to both make a decision. We are going to live a rich life. We deserve it, and we're going to work for it and maybe even make some changes or compromises. But life is too short to live a tragedy of a smaller life than we have to. That's why I want people to work together with their money.

Mike Carruthers (26:57)

Well, this is certainly a refreshing way to talk about money and to make it fun. Certainly is appealing, and it's a topic that's on a lot of people's minds right now. I've been speaking with Ramit Sethi. He's author of the book Money for Couples and Ramit also has a podcast called Money for Couples and I'll put a link to the podcast and a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes Ramit. Thank you. It's always a pleasure.

Ramit Sethi (27:25)

Perfect. Great to talk to you. Thanks Mike.

Megan Rinks (27:27)

Hi, I'm Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to every single lesbian bar in the country for my podcast, Cruising. Each episode of Cruising features a different space and tells the stories of the humans that run it and the humans that call it home. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season one and two are available now, so be sure to binge them before season three, which will go beyond beyond the bars to queer bookstores, farms, peace encampments and more. Premiering February 4th.

Ramit Sethi (27:58)

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Mike Carruthers (27:59)

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Ramit Sethi (28:04)

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Mike Carruthers (28:09)

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Mike Carruthers (28:30)

A lot of how you perceive the world you do through your sense of smell, from how food tastes, which is really largely the sense of smell, to who you are and who you are not attracted to. The human sense of smell guides you towards good things and away from bad things. And how it all works together is really interesting. Here to explain it is Jonas Olafsson. He is a professor of psychology at Stockholm University, where he directs the Sensory Cognitive Interaction Lab. He's also author of a book called the Forgotten the New Science of Smell and the Extraordinary Power of the Nose. Hi, Jonas. Welcome to something you should know.

Jonas Olafsson (29:14)

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Mike Carruthers (29:16)

So compared to other creatures who roam the earth, where do we humans rank in our ability to smell? I mean, when you watch a dog, for example, they're almost always smelling and sniffing their environment. And we've heard they have a really great sense of smell. But how do we compare to dogs or to other creatures? Are we near the top of the list?

Jonas Olafsson (29:39)

Yeah. So this has been debated, and for a long time, many people assume that the human sense of smell was atrophied or underdeveloped. But recently there have been efforts to try to combine everything that we know about how faint smells can humans detect versus non human animals and then compare the two. But as far as we know, humans are only outclassed by the dog in terms of how many molecules we can detect at a very low concentration. So only the dog is clearly superior to us. And so it's unfortunate to us that we, we interact with dogs a lot. So we compare our noses to theirs and they are perhaps the outlier, whereas we have a very strong sense of smell, better than, than most animals that, that we have studied. So the sense of smell is much better than, than people typically give it credit for.

Mike Carruthers (30:38)

And when I smell something, what's going on? How does that work?

Jonas Olafsson (30:44)

Yeah, so odors are basically molecules that are released from a type of surface, and they are airborne. So they have to be of a certain molecular weight in order to be carried by the air. They can't be too heavy, but they are carried in the air, and they are part of the air that we are sniffing and inhaling when we breathe in through our nose. So on the top of the nasal cavity, we have millions of little nervous cells. So the, the nervous system is actually exposed in the nasal cavity. And there these molecules interact directly with these sensors on the nerve cells. And the nerve cells communicate. They send an electric signal through Little holes at the roof of the nasal cavity and the base of the skull actually has little perforations. And those little holes, that's where the neurons travel up to the brain. And from there, all kinds of weird and exciting things happen. When the brain is supposed to tease apart very complex signals that are coming from the nose so that we are able to tell apart different smells, to remember them, to have an emotional reaction to them. All these things take place in the central parts of our brain.

Mike Carruthers (32:10)

One of the things I think people wonder about the sense of smell is that we smell things. And sometimes the smell is very pleasurable, sometimes it can make you sick. It's so disgusting. Probably most smells are somewhere in the middle. But why do we have that reaction? Why isn't a smell just a. Yeah, I get that. I smell that. But sometimes it's like, oh, that's horrible.

Jonas Olafsson (32:38)

Yeah. So it's believed that the most fundamental function that the sense of smell has is for us to detect chemical hazards or nutritious and pleasurable food sources at a distance. So we can navigate away from certain things and towards other things, and that helps us to survive. This is found in very simple organisms. It's called chemotaxis. That's when a little amoeba swims towards sucrose if you put it in a little dish. So it's a very basic kind of attraction and revulsion mechanism, and that helps the organism to survive. So I think that's kind of built into our brains and our genetics. But then what we have as mammals, we have a great capacity to learn to learn to associate which are the smells that made us sick, which are the smells that turned out to be really nutritious and good food. And then we carry those memories with us. And when we smell something, our emotional reactions are to a large extent shaped by those prior experiences and emotional reactions that we had before.

Mike Carruthers (33:55)

But are there people? Because I could smell something, presumably for the first time, and say, that's really great. And you could smell the same thing, presumably for the first time, and say, that's horrible. Or would we need to have associated with it something else Prior?

Jonas Olafsson (34:15)

Yeah. So a prior experience is one thing, but the individual receptor genetics. So those are the genes that are expressed in us as individuals that. That create those receptor cells that enable us to pick up certain molecules. Those differ to a large extent from person to person, and that can have consequences for how strongly do we pick up on certain notes. So, for example, someone's body odor might smell very strong and unpleasant to one person, whereas For a different person, it's okay, or even very nice. But there was one interesting study in Iceland. So they have this tradition of eating fermented shark, which smells very stinky to most people. But those who perceive this smell to be less strong, they might be able to sort of overcome this smell in order to eat food that might keep them alive. And so a particular version of this gene that makes this smell smell less strong is overrepresented in the Icelandic population, which has been heavily dependent on a fish diet. So I find that absolutely fascinating. I'm myself a big fan of Swedish fermented herring, the sewerstremming. So I might be one of those with a particular genetic setup.

Mike Carruthers (35:44)

But are there smells that are universally disliked? I'm thinking like decaying garbage, things like that. That nobody. Nobody smells that and goes, God, that's great.

Jonas Olafsson (35:57)

There are odors that are, on a cultural level that are disliked by all different cultures. But within those cultures, there are people who find these odors. Okay. So within each culture, there. There are individuals who have a completely different opinion about the smells. So it goes to show that the sense of smell is very individual. There might be general trends that are common across cultures, but within each culture, there are certain people who might just have. For biological or historical reasons, they might have a very different opinion of certain smells that other people find repulsing.

Mike Carruthers (36:46)

So there are no smells that are universally hated or universally loved?

Jonas Olafsson (36:52)

Not that I'm aware, at least, no.

Mike Carruthers (36:55)

It's hard to imagine that people would smell like flowers or. And I've heard, like, vanilla or cinnamon. Like, if you smell that, how could you say, God, that's terrible?

Jonas Olafsson (37:05)

There is actually. One of the first studies that I did was on pregnant women and their sense of smell. And one of the odors that we exposed them to was Chanel no. 5, the perfume. And most of the women in the sample, they strongly disliked this smell. I thought that they would really like it. It's a. It's an old perfume. And. But they. They really dislike this. This odor. So it's really unpredictable what people will like and dislike it. It's just. Yeah, it's quite fascinating how different people react.

Mike Carruthers (37:46)

That's really amazing because Chanel no. 5 is and has been a very popular perfume for forever. And to find that people really dislike it like that, particularly women. Surprises.

Jonas Olafsson (38:00)

Yeah, they thought it was kind of overwhelming and too sweet and flowery and artificial, all these things that they, um. But I suppose other people might have a completely different view, otherwise the perfume wouldn't have been so so popular. So it, It's. It really has a lot to do with, I think, cultural values, experiences, these personal tastes that we develop over our lives. But because the emotional qualities of smell are so strong, that makes us think that they must be innate. That's what I think is going on. That because we have this strong emotional kind of dimension to smells, we tend to believe that it cannot be learned. But when you expose people to smells a lot, you see that the more they are exposed to it, the less unpleasant these odors tend to be. If they are unpleasant to begin with, we can get used to a lot of smells that we don't find acceptable. At first.

Mike Carruthers (39:11)

I wanted to ask you about that because it does seem very normal that people get used to smells. You can walk into a really stinky barn full of cows and pigs and everything else, and it's overwhelmingly bad. Yeah, but only for a while. Then all of a sudden, you kind of don't notice it anymore after what, 20 minutes or so. It's like you become accustomed to it.

Jonas Olafsson (39:36)

Yeah. And that's also one of the basic functions of smell, is that it alerts us to new smells. But once we have sort of understood what it is and we have attended to these smells, they fade into the background. And that's probably because we don't really need to attend to them anymore. We know that they are not dangerous. It's the change in the chemical environment that is what we need to be alerted to. So our noses get tired and our attention span. Our attention moves away to other things very quickly when it comes to smells.

Mike Carruthers (40:20)

So people smell. We all smell. We all have a scent. And I've heard and everyone's heard that there is some connection between scent, a person's scent, and their attraction, human attraction. Can you talk about that?

Jonas Olafsson (40:37)

Many people feel that a pleasant body odor is a very desirable characteristic. And in women, especially, an attractive body odor is as important or even more important than good looks. So it certainly is a big factor when it comes to partner finding a partner and romantic attachment and such. Those people who lose their sense of smell, they often report that their love lives suffer. So they don't feel as connected to their partner on an emotional level as they did before. And oftentimes they might not be aware. Aware that it's a sense of smell that kind of brought about this close emotional tie between them. So the sense of smell is very powerful in this regard. In surveys on U.S. college students, for example, women tend to say that a good body odor is more preferable than good looks. For men, the looks are more important, but for women, the smell is more important.

Mike Carruthers (41:48)

That really surprises because I've never talked about that with anybody. No one's ever. It's never come up in conversation. That. And is a good body odor. Very subjective. Like, somebody could find me that I smell great, and others would say, no, he's not.

Jonas Olafsson (42:07)

Yeah, it is very individual. And I think it's also interesting to what you said that we don't really talk about it very often. It's really hard to communicate and talk about smells and try to put it into words, what we are experiencing. So a lot of it kind of affects us in an unconscious way. So part of my efforts is to kind of make people aware and to talk more about smells and to attend to smells. And I think that will kind of lead to a better understanding of who we are and why we do the things we do.

Mike Carruthers (42:46)

One of the things about the sense of smell that I love, that I think is so great, is how it can transport you back in time. How you can smell something that reminds you of some memory, and it just. You're instantly back there. It is so powerful, and at least it is for me.

Jonas Olafsson (43:09)

Yeah, many people have at least a few of those childhood memories that can be instantly triggered by a certain smell. And, yeah, it's not really well known why this happens, but we know that the sense of smell is fully developed already when we are born. So we are born with a really keen sense of smell, and that makes us probably able to encode new memories related to smell before we're able to do the same with other senses. And that is maybe why the sense of smell can bring back these old memories, other sensory events, they tend to bring back memory from the teenage years or young adulthood. For example, our favorite music is usually the music that we loved when we were teenagers, but with smell, it goes earlier than that. So childhood memories are evoked by the smells.

Mike Carruthers (44:16)

Is it normal for your sense of smell to deteriorate over time in kind of the same way people's eyesight tends to get worse over time. Is it just a normal product of aging?

Jonas Olafsson (44:29)

Yeah, it is, unfortunately. So a lot of the people who have smell impairments, they have that because of wear and tear over our lives. So, as I mentioned, these olfactory receptors are exposed in the nasal cavity, so they are exposed to all kinds of things, viruses, et cetera, that we breathe in, and that can have harmful effects. And even if the. The biological system is very good at regeneration and recovering from these insults, it's rarely as Good as it was when we were young. So it's a normal consequence of aging. And unfortunately, unlike the sense of vision, we don't have anything comparable to eyeglasses to compensate for for these impairments. So there is no technology yet for fully recovering or compensating for an impaired sense of smell.

Mike Carruthers (45:29)

Is it true that women have a better sense of smell overall?

Jonas Olafsson (45:33)

Not quite. Actually, it's a notion that was present already in ancient times. Aristotle wrote that women had a better sense of smell than men, but modern research hasn't really brought that out. So if we test men and women on really faint odors, men and women tend to perform similarly. So we can detect odors at very. At the same concentration. But when we ask participants to remember the smells or to describe them with words, women tend to do better. So they are more able to cognitively elaborate and encode the odors in memory relative to the men. So it's both yes and no. They are better in some ways, but the nose is as powerful for men as in women.

Mike Carruthers (46:32)

What do we know about smell as it affects your behavior, your mood, your productivity?

Jonas Olafsson (46:40)

Yeah. So we know that being out in nature and smelling the natural smells of the forest or the ocean or those things can have a strong impact on our moods and have positive health benefits. But it doesn't really work in an automatic way. So we can't just pump certain smells into the ventilation system at the workplace, and then people will be more productive. I think it has to do with the context in which the odors are presented and the people who are perceiving them. So there is no real shortcut, I think, to boosting productivity. And I think a lot of the aromatherapy effects, they are due to the fact that people put themselves in a mindful state and they use odors that they like and that they believe have these potent effects on their moods. And so there is a type of placebo effect going on as well, and people can use that for their benefit. So I'm not a believer in using odors too much in the workplace. It might actually backfire if you have an unpleasant work environment. Adding smells to it might make things worse, I think.

Mike Carruthers (48:04)

Well, as the title of your book says, smell is really the forgotten sense, in that we never really think that much about it. We certainly don't give a whole lot of thought to how much it enhances the taste of food or. Or helps us pick a mate. But it's involved in so much of our lives, and yet it's all so quiet. Jonas Olufsen has been my guest. He's a professor of psychology at Stockholm University, and he's author of the book the Forgotten the New Science of Smell and the Extraordinary Power of the Nose. And there is a link to his book at Amazon in the show Notes thanks for bringing smell into the forefront, Jonas. I appreciate your time.

Jonas Olafsson (48:44)

Thank you so much.

Mike Carruthers (48:48)

Tonight, just before you go to sleep, just before you close your eyes, open them and take a look around. What do you see? Hopefully you'll see nothing. But most of us have some sort of light in our bedroom. It's coming from a clock or a gadget or a night light in the hallway or a streetlight outside. And researchers say that's no good. These researchers used hamsters for a study about night light because hamsters are physiologically similar to humans. One group of hamsters got to sleep in total darkness. The other groups had to sleep exposed to dim light, either red, white, or blue. Then the hamster's behavior was observed. The next day, the ones who slept in total darkness seemed pretty happy and enjoyed going about their tasks. The next day, the ones who slept with the dim red light had a pretty good day. But the hamsters who slept with the blue or white light, they didn't do too well. They showed signs of depression and weren't all that interested in doing their tasks. Generally, they were cranky hamsters. And since hamsters are physiologically similar to humans, the recommendation is that if you need a night light or an illuminated clock in your room, the best thing to do is get one that glows red. Otherwise, try to keep the room as dark as you can. And that is something you should know. As you probably know, every week we deliver three new episodes of Something you should Know. And if you follow us on whatever platform you listen, Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, Castbox, wherever, then we will deliver these episodes right to you so you don't have to come find us. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something you should Know.

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