Emma Chamberlain (5:18)

Hi, it's a pleasure to be with you.

Mike Carruthers (5:20)

So what is a ritual? As you study it and define it, what is it?

Emma Chamberlain (5:24)

Rituals are regularly repeated sets of actions that feel special. They're not ordinary, and yet they have either no stated goal or, or even when they do have a goal, that goal is not causally related to the actions themselves. I like to give the example of brushing your teeth, which is not a ritual, and the reason is not a ritual is that it has a very specific purpose and the actions we undertake to achieve that purpose are causally related. So I move my brush up and up and down and that helps me remove food from my my teeth, helping me make them clean. Now if I woke up every morning and I and I waved my toothbrush in the air with the belief that this will help me clean my teeth or for that matter, with, without any Belief at all. Now, that would be an example of a ritual.

Mike Carruthers (6:19)

So it's really something that does nothing, and yet it has meaning anyway.

Emma Chamberlain (6:26)

Exactly. And that's why it's such a fascinating topic to study, because people consider their rituals deeply meaningful, and they put a lot of time, resources and effort into those rituals. Some of the rituals that I studied even involve very painful, even excruciating things, like walking on fire, having your body pierced with needles and skewers. And people consider these rituals very, very important in their lives. And yet, when I ask them why they perform these rituals, and I've asked hundreds, if not thousands of people that question, they have a very hard time explaining why they're important. Most of the time, they'll just look at me and they'll go, what do you mean? These are our traditions. That's what we do. That's who we are.

Mike Carruthers (7:13)

Does everyone, or at least every culture have rituals? Has there ever been a culture that didn't have any?

Emma Chamberlain (7:21)

As far as we know, there is no culture, whether past or present, that has no rituals. In fact, when we look at our own cultures, we will see that the most important moments of our lives, whether these are personal moments like birthdays and weddings or collective moments like presidential inaugurations, all of these moments are shrouded in ritual.

Mike Carruthers (7:46)

Why is it so universal, if in fact rituals don't really do anything? Why are they so important to everybody?

Emma Chamberlain (7:56)

This is the big question that my research has been asking. Now, anthropologists have long pointed out that rituals, although they have no practical impact on the world, that is not to say that they have no impact at all. So they've pointed out that rituals can have important psychological and social effects. But these theories remained untested for a very long time. And it's only in recent years that we were able to put them to the test and bring scientific measurements into anthropological research in order to be able to understand what these rituals actually do for us. And what we're finding out is that they can play very important functions for us. They help us find comfort. They help us find connection and meaning in life. And they help shape our sense of who we are as a person and as a member of the various groups that we belong to.

Mike Carruthers (8:51)

There are rituals, though, that I can think of pretty benign rituals, but rituals nonetheless of, you know, rubbing a rabbit's foot or, you know, for good luck kind of thing. And it doesn't work yet people still do it. And if it did work, then it wouldn't be a ritual, would it?

Daniel Lieberman (9:11)

True.

Emma Chamberlain (9:12)

But even those actions that seem utterly pointless. We are finding out they might have important functions as well, important psychological functions. For example, you mentioned good luck rituals. We're finding that if you were to search for places or situations in which individual ritualization takes place, things like superstitions, for example, the best places to look for that would be things like a casino or a sports stadium, or perhaps a hospital or war zones, all of these situations. That's where we see that people spontaneously engage in all of those ritualized actions. And what all of these situations have in common is that they involve a lot of uncertainty and a lot of anxiety. So anthropologists have theorized a long time ago that perhaps engaging in rituals is an attempt to overcome this anxiety. Now, how exactly this works, we didn't know. Recent research provides evidence about how this exactly might work.

Mike Carruthers (10:17)

And that evidence is, for example, in.

Emma Chamberlain (10:20)

My own research that I've done with my colleagues, when we bring people into a lab and we stress them up, we see that their behavior becomes more ritualized, their movements become more repetitive. And we take this research into the real world, and we go into religious temples, and we measure people's anxiety before and after they perform their cultural rituals. And we see that performing those rituals helps them reduce anxiety. We can see this in their heart rate variability, in their cortisol levels, and even at the subjective level, they feel calmer. How does that exactly happen? In other studies in the laboratory, we see that when people engage in those repetitive movements that are very common in rituals, Even if they're stripped of any kind of meaning, that in itself helps them deal with anxiety. And the reason for that is that it is related to the way our brain works. Our brain doesn't just passively absorb stimuli. It makes active predictions about the state of the world all of the time. Before I even finish the sentence that I'm about to say, you have certain expectations about what's going to follow. Our brain does this in all kinds of domains. And when we don't have this ability to make predictions, when we don't know what's about to come, that's when we feel stressed, and that's where ritual comes in. Because if ritual is anything, it is structure, it is order. Ritual is very predictable. When we engage in a familiar ritual, we know exactly what's going to happen, we know exactly when it is going to happen, and we know exactly how it's going to happen. And this gives our brain a sense of control. And it doesn't really matter whether this sense of control is real or illusory. All that matters is that it actually works. And this is what we're finding in our studies. People who engage in those repetitive rituals, they're better able to cope with anxiety.

Mike Carruthers (12:20)

But you mentioned at the beginning here that you study rituals of cultures that do incredibly painful things as rituals. How does that help your anxiety? Seems like if you came at me with a needle, I don't think I'd be less anxious, I'd be more anxious.

Emma Chamberlain (12:38)

That is an excellent point. In fact, some of the rituals that I've studied, they involve unbearable pain. Some of the ceremonies that are studied on the island of Mauritius, for example, they are Hindu ceremonies that involve piercing the body with hundreds of needles and even skewers and rods through the cheeks and walking barefooted on the burning asphalt under the midsummer tropical sun. And all that is happening as people are carrying these very large shrines that can weigh 100 pounds. And when they reach their destination, which is six hours later, they have to climb this hill, carrying these burdens up to the, to the top of the hill where the temple of Muruga lies. So this is really a full day of self imposed torture. And even in this context, we have done studies that show that they might offer tangible benefits to those people who do them. So in the context of these rituals, we look at people's physiological reactions and of course we see that during that day they are extremely stressed, orders of magnitude more stressed than they would be on their everyday, in their everyday life. And we see this in things like their electrodermal activity, so their skin conductance, which is a measure of stress. Now when we measure the health outcomes of those rituals, we see that a month later, those who have engaged in those rituals, they have better subjective well being and quality of life than those who didn't. And within the group that does the ritual, we see that the more they suffer on the day, the more pronounced these effects.

Mike Carruthers (14:19)

Is there any indication though that someone who say, pierces themselves with sharp needles or walks on hot coals and does these very painful things, that they get more of an internal benefit from those rituals because they're so painful and involved compared to someone who just, you know, rubs a rabbit's foot because that's their ritual? Or can you get the same from any ritual if you believe you get the same from any ritual?

Emma Chamberlain (14:51)

Yes. And this, here's where meaning comes in. We know from psychological research that we intuitively attribute meaning to effort. So if you think of some of the moments in our lives that we consider to be the most important to us, and those are the things that fundamentally shaped us as a person, so they changed our personal autobiographical narrative. Those moments will very often include times of suffering. The time perhaps we climbed a mountain or the time a woman might have given birth, the time we survived a car accident. Even some of these traumatic moments, we come to consider them significant in our personal narrative. We attribute meaning to them. And the fact that rituals involve this type of suffering that, at least in the rituals that I study, is self imposed. So the fact that you chose to do this ritual, the fact that you chose to put so much effort into it, also makes it a much more meaningful experience in in our mind and in our memory.

Mike Carruthers (15:56)

Rituals is our topic today, and I'm speaking with Demetrius Zigalatas. He is an anthropologist and author of the book RIT How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living.

Demetrius Zigalatas (16:10)

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Mike Carruthers (18:06)

So Demetrius, in these cultures where they engage in these elaborate rituals that are very painful, doesn't anyone ever stop and go, hey, wait, wait a minute, wait, why are we doing this? Couldn't we do something else that's perhaps a little less painful? Or do they just. We just do it. It's just what we do.

Emma Chamberlain (18:30)

That's what people say. When I ask them why they perform their rituals. The most common answer I get is just what we do. So as human beings, we tend to do as the Romans do. This is very important for us because we are a hyper social species. So most of the things we learn in life, they actually come from other people, whether it's through intentional instruction or just by observing them. So we have evolved to imitate what others around us do and especially imitate what people of our group do and particularly influential individuals in that group. So if everybody in your group does it, if the most prestigious individuals in your group do it, then you end up doing it as well. And by doing this, you also reap the benefits of doing it. We see, for example, that people who engage in very painful rituals, that gives a boost in their reputation. So there are studies conducted in India by an anthropologist called Ellie Power. And she's finding that performing these very painful rituals just once a year is the equivalent of, of going to the temple every single week in terms of how you're perceived by others, People who, who perform these rituals more frequently or who pay a higher price to perform them, they are seen as more trustworthy. They're. They're better able to call upon others when they need things like borrowing money or help with taking care of their children and so on and so forth. So those social benefits are very real.

Mike Carruthers (20:08)

But those social benefits are not why they do it.

Emma Chamberlain (20:11)

Or is it at least it seems that at a reflective, conscious level, they are not why they do it. So people, even as people recognize that by taking part in that ritual you feel bonded with each other. I don't think anybody has ever told me I do this ritual to boost my status. Now at the back of people said that might be there, of course, and at some level we're conscious that by virtue of engaging those rituals, that changes the way people see us. But I don't think that's the primary motivation. I think the primary motivation is just.

Mike Carruthers (20:46)

To fit in well, getting away from the painful rituals because we don't really have a whole lot of those here in the West. I mean, it doesn't seem like that's all that popular, that our rituals tend to be much more benign. And, you know, like. And this time of year, Christmas has a lot of rituals where people do things and decorate in certain ways that they don't do any other time of year because it's Christmas, and they do it because that's what we do. But also because I think it makes people feel good.

Emma Chamberlain (21:23)

Absolutely. I tend to see rituals as social technologies. They are successful social technologies because they're able to harness all kinds of different mechanisms, the psychological mechanisms. So it is not just pain and suffering that they can recruit in order to make an occasion seem more special. They can recruit things like emotional arousal. They can recruit things like sensory pageantry. And that's where what you see with holiday celebrations, they're. They're bursting with pageantry. They. They're full of colors and. And smells and sometimes literally bells and whistles. So they stimulate all of your senses. And because the most important moments of our lives are related to extravagant ceremonies. Weddings, graduation ceremonies, birthday parties. Whenever we see an extravagant ceremony, immediately in our brain, that signals that this is an important moment, and this is an important moment. This is a moment to pay attention to. This is a moment to look forward to. This is a moment to fully embrace.

Mike Carruthers (22:31)

Is there any sense that rituals are on the rise or on the decline, or it's pretty steady, or does it go in waves or anything like that?

Emma Chamberlain (22:42)

The way I see it is that ritual has always been part of our nature, and it's just as much a part of our nature today as it has always been. Sometimes we might get the sense that ritual is in decline just because in parts of the world, in the west in particular, we see that membership in at least the major religious organizations is declining. But that is not to say that people are abandoning ritual altogether. In fact, what I see is that the more people stop performing some of the more traditional rituals, perhaps related to. To the church in the American setting, the more they seek the same kinds of experiences in other domains of life. So you can find collective rituals, for example, in the context of musical concerts or sports stadiums or events like Burning man or Coachella. You can find them in politics. You can find them in all of our secular institutions. You can find them in the courtroom. You can find them in university graduation ceremonies, and so on and so forth. So ritual has always been there, and it's still there. The. The. The context in which it is performed might often change, but our need for ritual remains the same.

Mike Carruthers (24:03)

And so many of those rituals that you just mentioned in the courtroom and at graduation, I'm thinking of those kind of things that, you know, why do we do them? Well, that's just what we do. It's just part of the. It's part of the ceremony. It's part of the pageantry. It's just what we do. Like, you're almost not supposed to question it.

Emma Chamberlain (24:29)

That is true. That is what it feels like to people. We're not supposed to question certain traditions and ritual. Traditions are particularly the kinds of traditions that feel this way. There are studies that actually show that when you suggest to people that certain of their most ritualized public holidays, things like Thanksgiving, if you were to change those holidays, people get morally appalled by this. They find this offensive that somebody would suggest making changes to those rituals. They're not supposed to change, even. Even as they do change. Because Thanksgiving actually in the past was moved. It was moved by a week earlier so that the. The holiday period would be extended and people would spend more money.

Mike Carruthers (25:22)

And people didn't like that.

Emma Chamberlain (25:23)

People didn't like that. Most states actually refused to enforce this. And recently. So now nobody remembers this anymore. But recently there was a study that asked people this question. How would you feel if the government wanted to move Thanksgiving by a week? And people really felt that this would be offensive.

Mike Carruthers (25:43)

You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking back to 2020, when we were all lockdown. And one of the things that happened was that for The Class of 2020, at every grade level, at every school, there was no graduation. And people were talking about that, how sorry we felt for members of the class of 2020 because there would be no graduation, which is just a ritual. It doesn't do anything other than recognize a passage in life. But people felt really bad about that because graduation is so important.

Emma Chamberlain (26:20)

It's very important. And we know this. We know. We've all heard people. At least I have heard people say that because their university didn't have a graduation ceremony, they felt that their degree was diminished. And we saw people go to great lengths to offer this ritual experience to the students. So in India, there was a university that created avatars for every student and had a virtual ceremony and invited famous guest speakers for the commencement address. And they had their own avatars. In other parts of the world, we saw that schools might have socially distant graduation ceremonies in all sorts of innovative ways, including somewhere a ski lift so they could maintain social distance. So our institutions recognize this need for ritual.

Mike Carruthers (27:15)

Well, after listening to you, I think it's clear we all recognize that need for ritual. It's important to all of us to one degree or another. Demetrius Zigalatas has been my guest. He is an anthropologist and cognitive scientist who runs the Experimental Anthropology lab at the University of Connecticut, and the name of his book is How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Demetris.

Emma Chamberlain (27:43)

Thank you, Mike. It's been a real pleasure.

Demetrius Zigalatas (27:47)

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Daniel Lieberman (29:00)

Hey, it's Emma Chamberlain. I designed these new glasses for Warby Parker and I basically can't take them off like I'm showering in them and sleeping in them. They're just that good. Go see them all@warbyparker.com and you know what? Have a good day too. Okay? All right, bye.

Mike Carruthers (29:21)

You often hear phrases like the human body was designed to move. Exercise is good for you. And you can often hear people talk about how much they enjoy exercising. But for a lot of other people, exercise is hard. It's hard to start exercising and even harder to stick with it. So why is it something supposedly so necessary and natural for our health is such a challenge to do? Here to discuss that and to offer some suggestions on making exercise less of a struggle is Daniel Lieberman, professor of Biological Sciences and a professor of the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard University. He's author of a book called why Something we never evolved to do is healthy and rewarding. Hey, Daniel. Welcome.

Daniel Lieberman (30:14)

Thank you. I'm a pleasure to be here.

Mike Carruthers (30:16)

So why is it, if exercise is so critical for our well being, why is it so hard to do routinely?

Daniel Lieberman (30:24)

Well, that's a good question. And to understand the answer to that, it's important to make a distinction between physical activity, which is moving, right, doing anything, right? You know, sweeping the floor, buying groceries, you name it, and exercise, excuse me, which is a discretionary, voluntary physical activity for the sake of health and fitness. And we evolved to be physically active, but we didn't evolve to exercise. And the reason for that is that until recently, people had to be very physically active, but they're also energy limited. And when you're energy limited, doing unnecessary discretionary physical activity is crazy, right? Like, so, for example, I ran five miles this morning, which cost me about 500 calories. You know, when you're struggling to get enough calories, wasting 500 calories on a completely useless run in the morning is a really terrible idea. And so it's an instinct not to, you know, it's an instinct to avoid unnecessary physical activity, which is exactly what exercise is.

Mike Carruthers (31:23)

So this is really all part of our mechanism for survival, right?

Daniel Lieberman (31:28)

Life is really just about, you know, food in, babies out, right? And the reason we eat food is for nutrients and calories. And calories is a unit of energy. So until recently, people struggled to get enough calories. It takes, you know, about 2 to 3,000 calories to run a human body for a given day. And if you're a farmer or a hunter gatherer, getting those calories is not easy. And you also have to pay for your children's caloric needs, their brains and all that sort of stuff. And so you're struggling to get enough calories. And so spending it on a treadmill to spend even more calories is a very odd modern thing.

Mike Carruthers (32:14)

And yet there are plenty of people who do exercise and claim to love it. You ran five miles today. You didn't do it because you hate it. You did it because either you see the reward in it or you get pleasure from it, or both.

Daniel Lieberman (32:30)

Yeah, well, I mean, it's a paradox, right? We evolved to be physically active, and we have all kinds of mechanisms that reward it, right? So one of the reasons I exercise every day is that I'm addicted to it. I have a dopamine. You know, dopamine is the molecule of more. It's the chemical, you know, the neurotransmitter, which says, do it again, right? And when I, I have lots of dopamine receptors in my brain that are thirsty and hungry for more dopamine. And, and when I exercise, they get that dopamine hit. And if I don't exercise, they're, they make me crabby and unpleasant. But if you. The thing is, if you're unfit and, or struggling with your weight, those dopamine receptors are going to be fewer in number and possibly even impaired in their function. And so people or aren't already exercising a lot or being physically active don't get the same reward. So it's a very strange mechanism. And the reason that you might ask, why does that work the way it does is that in the past, nobody ever was physically inactive. That just wasn't possible to be active every day in order to hunt and gather or farm or whatever. And so we never evolved to cope with a persistent physical inactivity.

Mike Carruthers (33:44)

I remember speaking with you some years ago and I remember you telling me about other cultures where, you know, exercise is like, why would you do that? Tell that story.

Daniel Lieberman (33:56)

I was doing research in actually northern Mexico among the Tarahumara, also call themselves the Raramuri. And they're famous for long distance running, right. They have these incredible races where they sometimes run, you know, 50, 60 miles. Right. And I was being a good anthropologist and I was going around and talking to folks, folks and, and, and asking them about their running and, and about their training. And of course, the idea of, you know, training is when you like, run to get, you know, prepare yourself for a race. And, and when I was asking all these folks about training, like the word didn't even exist in their language, I was working through a translator. And, and so I was like explaining how, you know, this guy, you know, here, he, you know, he, the translator was explaining that I, like, ran every day in order to get ready for races. And the guy looked at me and, and I, I didn't even need a translator to figure this out. And he said, why would any. They didn't have to. And that for me, actually that was the beginning of the book because I suddenly had this realization that my exercise.

Mike Carruthers (34:55)

Habits are really weird for them. Yeah, but maybe that explains why exercise is so hard, because to do it artificially, to exercise for the sake of exercise is not something humans did. We exercise to survive and to thrive, but not to exercise just to exercise. I don't imagine too many. I don't imagine any other anim animals exercise just for the heck of it.

Daniel Lieberman (35:22)

Well, it's not entirely true. So there's a Very famous paper, one of my favorite papers, let me put it that way. There's a biologist in the Netherlands who, who puts mice on treadmills. And, and she noticed that she had mice in her backyard. And one day she thought, you know what, what happens if I put a, put a tread, you know, a little, a little running wheel in my backyard. So she put a running wheel in her backyard and put some cameras on it. Night cameras, went to bed. In the morning, when she woke up, she. She looked at the camera feed and to her astonishment, wild mice in her backyard had gotten on this little running wheel and had run for a while. In fact, other animals had gotten on too. I think a frog got on it and even a slug had gotten on the truck on the wheel. So, you know, other animals do physical activity and why they do it, you know, well, nobody knows, right? And mice are really interesting because mice will naturally run, you know, several kilometers. Right. They're a little bit unusual, but it's certainly part of their behavior. They're wired to do it. But the vast majority of animals avoid unnecessary physical activity, and humans are no exception. Except we now live in this very strange modern world where we've got elevators and shopping carts and electric can openers and you name it. Right? And so basically now we don't really need to be physically active anymore, but yet our bodies require physical activity in order to turn on a whole variety of repair and maintenance mechanisms that keep us healthy. And so we've had to create in the modern industrial or post industrial world this really weird behavior called exercise, which.

Mike Carruthers (36:59)

People resist like crazy.

Daniel Lieberman (37:01)

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with them. Right. It's normal. I mean, I think one of the problems with the way we think about exercise is that we make people exercise about exercise. We make them confused and anxious and feel bullied and shamed about it. Right. But it's a fundamental instinct not to do physical activity unless it's rewarding or necessary. And so we need to be more compassionate towards our fellow human beings who are struggling to do something really weird like get on a treadmill and run for five miles and get absolutely nowhere. And it really kind of a very unpleasant kind of context.

Mike Carruthers (37:38)

Is it that exercise is so good for you, or movement is so good for you, or lack of movement is so bad for you.

Daniel Lieberman (37:46)

Aha. That's exactly the point. Right. Which is that we evolve to be physically active. Not a crazy amount, two to three hours a day, basically, but that's a normal part of our environment. Right. And when you remove that, then all of a sudden, all kinds of natural mechanisms, which our bodies mount, get turned off. And so we often say that exercise is medicine. But a really more accurate statement is that the lack of physical activity makes us more vulnerable to disease and accelerates the aging process. So exercise isn't really actually medicine. It's the lack of exercise that causes problems.

Mike Carruthers (38:31)

And yet when people exercise, when they, you know, especially when they exercise a lot, they get injured, they get hurt, they get chronic, you know, joint problems and all that. So that may be going too far.

Daniel Lieberman (38:46)

Yeah, I mean, I think we sometimes exaggerate that stuff. I mean, look, if running was that dangerous, you know, then there could be no runners left. Right. You know, I think we sometimes exaggerate injuries and that sort of thing. I mean, it is true that people. Exercise has trade offs. Everything has trade offs. There are costs and benefits to everything. And so injury is always a potential there. But again, remember, our ancestors weren't like running marathons. You know, they were, you know, occasionally running. They were mostly walking. They were carrying, they were doing things that don't cause injury. A lot of the stuff that we do today that causes injury is because, you know, you get weekend warriors who aren't really all that fit. They're, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're not, you know, prepared for the stresses that their body then encounters. And then, of course, they overdo it and then they get injured. But that's, but that's again, a kind of weird, modern way in which we exercise.

Mike Carruthers (39:36)

And so what is your general prescription for exercise?

Daniel Lieberman (39:41)

I think we can say a few things. The first is that always some is better than none. You know, if you just get just a little bit of physical activity every day and you just look at the, at the outcome of that, it has enormous effects on people's health. It increases people's longevity, it decreases their vulnerability to a wide range of diseases, and that curve continues. Right? So, for example, on average for most people, if they exercise about 20 minutes a day, which is 150 minutes a week, and it can be just like walking, it doesn't have to be running. That can decrease your overall life history, your longevity by about 30% and reduce your vulnerability to a wide range of diseases enormously. And then the curve continues to go down and then eventually it kind of tails off. And so if you do anything more than an hour a day, you're not going to get any more benefit from doing an hour and 10 minutes a day or two hours a day or whatever. So basically the answer is that some is better than none. More yields, greater benefits, but those benefits begin to tail off. And then of course, there's variation in the kind of exercise that you do. I mean, are you running, are you walking, are you doing strength training, weights, et cetera? And the answer is, you know, mix it up, right? You know, it's good to do a little bit of strength training, especially as you age, but it's also, you know, aerobic physical activity is really important for kind of your base core, your, your, your fitness. You know, some kind of mix is always kind of important, but there's no one prescription. There never will be, but does.

Mike Carruthers (41:16)

You know, you go to any suburban town around the world and you know, four or five o'clock in the afternoon, you see lots of people out walking that are clearly not athletes. They're just people out for their afternoon walk. And my guess is that most of them think that they're walking because that's good for them. Is there some real benefit to that walk or is that like you say, some is better than nothing, but how much good is it doing?

Daniel Lieberman (41:44)

Oh, absolutely, there's a benefit to it. There is no question about it. I mean, if you look at, I mean, there are, there may be hundreds of studies by now, epidemiological studies, which show a dose response curve to like, like, for example, steps per day and various kinds of outcomes like cardiovascular disease or diabetes or just, you know, how long you live. And so, for example, let's take steps per day. You know, for most studies, if you look at that curve, the more steps you take, the better the outcome, up until about seven or 8,000 steps a day, and then the curve begins to start leveling off again. These are big epidemiological studies. There's variation from person to person, but sure, there's no question that physical activity has important benefits. And importantly, we understand a lot of the mechanisms behind it. Right. Because when you're physically active, your body produces antioxidants, your body produces enzymes that repair proteins and repair your DNA. Your body produces all kinds of turns on all kinds of genes that work on your brain and your liver. I mean, every system in the body pretty much is affected. Your immune system, people who exercise 150 minutes a week were shown in a study to be 2.5 times less likely to die of COVID This is before the vaccines were produced. So it affects every system of your body. And so, yeah, those folks who are out there walking are doing themselves a real benefit. Absolutely.

Mike Carruthers (43:16)

I remember hearing some time ago, and I Don't remember where it was from that there is a difference between, between exercising like on a treadmill versus exercising out in nature or something that. That is there. It seems to me that exercise is exercise.

Daniel Lieberman (43:35)

Well, for one, exercising on a treadmill is boring, in my opinion. You know, I mean, I, you know, if you, you want to. I mean, I, I have a hard time exercise, and I put people on treadmills for a living. Right. I just find them really hard to do. But apart from that, there are. If, like, if you just compare running on a treadmill versus running over ground, the treadmill is a little bit different because after all, the ground is moving underneath you, so it's actually pushing you in a slightly different way. So a lot of people, for example, put the treadmill at a, at a 1% incline to equal the. To kind of compensate for the fact that the treadmill belt is moving. Of course, the other thing that's different about the treadmill is that every step is exactly the same. Whereas when you're out in the real world, you know, every time you land, your foot's at a slightly different angle. There are, you know, rocks and inclines and, and, you know, and turns and all that sort of stuff. So, you know, I think treadmill running is, you know, makes people much more susceptible to repetitive stress injuries. But, you know, if you like running on a treadmill, if you like listening to a podcast on a treadmill or, you know, watching a movie or whatever, all power to you. That's. There's nothing wrong with it. I think, you know, I think we should be. Whatever works for people is good.

Mike Carruthers (44:48)

But for whatever reason, people try to exercise and fail and give up. Well, I think I know the reason, and I think it has to do with the failure to lose weight that people think they're going to lose a lot of weight when they exercise, and when they don't, they say, well, see, and they quit.

Daniel Lieberman (45:09)

Yeah, well, I mean, I think part of the problem is that we've tied so much. I mean, we just, we focus too much on weight. I think, you know, your health is what really matters. And, and the, the reason to exercise is not solely to lose weight. There are so many other benefits of just being fit. And so even if you're not losing weight, you're still getting all kinds of wonderful benefits. And, and look, about thinking about, you know, it doesn't have to be exercise in the gym. Like, how many, how many people think of dancing as exercise, but, you know, go dancing with some friends for, you know, people often Will dance for hours. We don't think of that as exercise, but it's darn good for you in all kinds of different ways. Or playing a game of soccer, or playing game of tennis, or going for a walk or hiking with your, with a friend or something. You know, the point is that physical activity has all kinds of benefits and weight loss is a component, but it's not the be all and end all. And what we should really be is promoting people's health and well being. And if that helps them lose weight, that's fine. But it's not the only reason to do it.

Mike Carruthers (46:15)

So give people some motivation, Give people a reason to do this, because it's going to be the start of the year. People are thinking, I need to exercise more. But they probably won't. So how about a little motivational talk?

Daniel Lieberman (46:31)

Average everyday human beings are really extraordinary athletes and can do amazing things. And, and you don't need to run a marathon. You don't need to, you know, be able to run to the top of the, you know, you know, the Empire State Building or, or, or whatever to get the benefits of just moderate levels of physical activity. And it, and it affects every single system of your body. It affects your immune system, it affects your, your brain, it affects your metabolism and prevent, helps prevent diabetes and heart disease. You know, we talk about breast cancer, cancer, for example. The number one cause of death in the United States is heart disease. The number two cause of death in the United States are cancer. And both of them are majorly affected by physical activity. Women who exercise 150 minutes a day or more can have 30 to 50% lower lifetime risk of breast cancer. How many people know that? And we're not talking a huge amount of physical activity. Physical activity is the number one way to help prevent heart disease. If you care about Alzheimer's or dementia. Again, physical, nothing, nothing comes remotely as close to physical activity as a, as a preventative form of Alzheimer's. Now will it guarantee that you won't get Alzheimer's? Guarantee that you won't get heart disease? Guarantee that you won't get cancer? No, of course not. But nothing really comes as close. And you get all kinds of other mental health benefits. You get a dopamine reward, you get serotonin reward. Your brain turns on all these wonderful chemicals that affect mental health. Physical activity has been shown to be as effective as any known medication for treating depression. Now again, will it mean that you'll never get depression? Of course not. But all of these things together mean that there's really A lot of positives. But at the same time, I think we should also acknowledge it's also completely normal and natural to avoid it. Because after all, we evolved to have to work and have to do all kinds of stuff, but we also evolved to take it easy when we could. And so our inclinations to avoid physical activity are also deep and innate and normal and functional. And we shouldn't shame people and make them feel like they're somehow. They're lazy for wanting to take the escalator instead of the stairs.

Mike Carruthers (48:50)

Well, I think that's a really important message because in all the talk of the importance of exercise and you're supposed to move and you need more activity, is this idea that if you don't, there's something wrong with you, that you are lazy? Or there's just, you know, there's something wrong with you? And clearly that's not the case. I've been talking to Daniel Lieberman. He's a professor of biological sciences and a professor of the Department of Human Evolutionary Biology at Harvard. The name of his book is why Something We Never Evolved to Do Is Healthy and Rewarding. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Everyone has heard that eating too much salt can raise your blood pressure. And that statement is actually based on research that was done in the 1940s that showed that people who had high blood pressure could lower it by reducing their intake of salt. As a result, it became this common advice to reduce salt in your diet to control your blood pressure. But in the last 25 years or so, research has shown that it's not just eating a lot of salt that can elevate your blood pressure. It's also not eating enough potassium. When you eat salt, it increases the amount of sodium in your blood, which causes you to retain water, which increases your blood volume and therefore your blood pressure. Potassium regulates your blood pressure by stimulating your kidneys to excrete more sodium, thereby reducing blood volume and decreasing your blood pressure. So if you don't want to cut down on salt, you can simply increase the amount of potassium you consume. Foods high in potassium include spinach, broccoli and beans. And that is something you should know. Hey, would you do me a favor and just take a moment? Wherever you're listening to this podcast, there's a place probably where you can leave a review, or at least a rating and just take a few words. Would be great. And preferably a five star review would be great. It really does help us in ways we don't completely understand. But it really does help us. So please. A rating and review would be appreciated. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Demetrius Zigalatas (51:14)

Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan the magical millennial. And I'm the dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover. On our show, we are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun.

Daniel Lieberman (51:39)

Facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures.

Demetrius Zigalatas (51:54)

You got this.

Mike Carruthers (51:54)

No, I didn't.

Daniel Lieberman (51:55)

Don't believe that about a witch coming true. Well, I didn't either. Of course.

Emma Chamberlain (52:00)

I'm just Cicada.

Daniel Lieberman (52:02)

I'm crying. I'm so sorry you win that one.

Demetrius Zigalatas (52:07)

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.

Mike Carruthers (52:13)

Merry Christmas, everybody. My name is Eric Peterson. I'm here with my good buddy Danny Jordan, and we are the co hosts of the Chris.

Daniel Lieberman (52:21)

Let me try that again.

Mike Carruthers (52:22)

I Merry Christmas, everybody.

Daniel Lieberman (52:24)

My name is Eric Peterson.

Mike Carruthers (52:25)

I'm here with my good buddy Danny Jordan, and we are the hosts of Christmas Countdown show.

Daniel Lieberman (52:30)

We're so thrilled to be bringing the merriment to you all this holiday season.

Mike Carruthers (52:33)

It's gonna be awesome.

Daniel Lieberman (52:34)

It's gonna be massively merry, gigantically jolly, fantastically festive as some people might say. Eric, we are all about alliterations and we are all about Christmas spirit. On Christmas Countdown, we love to count down Our top 10 favorite things related to the holiday season. That could be food, movies, music, everything that we all love about this massively merry good time. So wherever you get your podcast, make sure you click that subscribe button. Eric, are you ready?

Mike Carruthers (52:57)

I am ready and we hope that you are too.

Demetrius Zigalatas (52:59)

Merry Christmas, everybody.

Mike Carruthers (53:01)

Let's go. It should be like, let's go. Ho, ho, ho.

Daniel Lieberman (53:05)

Should be.

Emma Chamberlain (53:05)

Yeah.