B (5:19)

Thank you so much for having me.

A (5:21)

So where do we start to unpack this topic? Because some people have great sibling relationships. Some people have not so great sibling relationships. Some people have no siblings. So where's a good starting point to start this discussion?

B (5:37)

Well, I suppose 80% of us do have a sibling, and the other 20% are looking on a bit mystified about why their friends talk about their siblings in the way they do or their partners or their colleagues at work. So I think whether you have them or you, you don't, 100% of us are sort of affected by them. And if I could tell you a story to start, it was during the pandemic that an ex colleague was on the phone with me. I was talking about my two sisters and I'm the middle of three girls. And I was saying, you know, I should just make a podcast about them. They, their lives are so full of drama. And she said, I wouldn't do that, it would be a bit strange. But you should make a podcast about siblings because did you know that it's potentially the longest relationship of your life? And this is how I frame the whole way that I think about brothers and sisters. This idea that you can know someone for 80, 90, maybe 100 years before anyone else and maybe after anyone else, that changed the way I see the whole world, frankly.

A (6:39)

Well, it is interesting that you do have that relationship for longer than any other, but so many. I mean, I would put myself in this category. We kind of went our separate ways. Not that we don't talk to each other and see each other occasionally, but we're not close like I suspect maybe you and your sisters are. You know, our family, we just, we're all in different parts of the country, we talk on the phone, but, you know, there's not a lot of influence there, or doesn't seem to be.

B (7:12)

Yeah, no. And I think it's interesting, when you're adults, usually early adults is a leaner time for sibling relationships. I've learned you usually grow up with your siblings, although I didn't grow up with all of mine. And often in midlife, people are pulled back together for one big reason, and that's to look after their parents as they get older, or to consider how to provide care for their parents as they get older, and then to maybe grieve for them when they die. And a large part of the research that I've read seems to suggest that if you haven't progressed as adults beyond the ways that you interacted as children, where you can be quite stuck in your roles, you might have labels about which one in the family you are, the funny one or the clever one. And it can be quite two dimensional. When you are pulled back together in midlife to deal with big and difficult things, that's when real arguments can happen. And estrangement is a great risk. So it seems to me that maybe getting to know your siblings as adults, their full characters, if you like, not just the roles and labels they have had as kids before you get to that point, might stand you in good stead. Because the research shows if you get close and manage that chapter and then stay closer into older age, it has a really great benefit for Your well being and happiness. So that seems like a good thing to aim for.

A (8:40)

You know, that's really something I never really considered, but we do kind of pigeonhole our siblings. Like as you said, you know, he was the funny one and he was the. And we never let go of that, that we kind of still, we still carry those labels even though they probably don't necessarily apply so much later in life.

B (9:03)

Yeah, and it's funny, isn't it, because you're carrying a label around as somebody who's been compared to two or three or four other individuals in this great big world and your identity as relative to those other people, your siblings somehow feels very deep and sometimes quite sharp. And yet, let's say if you're at work and somebody said, you know, Mike, I'd really love you to present the company accounts this year and you thought to yourself, I'm not very good at maths. I'm not as good at maths as my brother is. That comparison is sort of meaningless in the world because your boss at work has asked you to do this job. He thinks you're good enough. But I think we still do carry this strange relative comparative thing with our siblings that's quite hard to shake. And I also think it's quite interesting that often we don't exhibit the behaviors which show those labels until we're back together. So even if we might have these ideas secretly about ourselves and about our siblings and how we are compared to them out in the big wide world, let's say, usually it's not evident until or unless we go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving or Easter and whoa, you can really see it then people slot back in like into their parts.

A (10:25)

I think one of the big questions that people have about siblings is why children can grow up together in the same house with the same parents and turn out so differently.

B (10:39)

Yeah, it's funny, isn't it, when you have your own children, you're so surprised by that. Even though it's true of all children everywhere, they're all different to each other. I suppose there's lots of different reasons. One is the way that DNA is shared. And I'm not a biologist, but I know that the amount of DNA you can share with a full sibling can vary. You can share as much DNA with a full sister as you do with a first cousin and maybe less with another one of your sisters. That's just the way it works. And so sometimes I think if you don't gel or click with one of your siblings, maybe there's a really simple biological reason for that. That's number one. But then number two, there's a kind of shared, what's called shared environment theory. And I like to think of it like a river. I like these pictures which is as if each child is born, they're sort of plopped into the river and they float along and the next child is born and they are plopped into the river. But it's a different body of water, it's a different day, the weather is different. And if you think about it in terms of the family, what that looks like is your parents might be older or tireder, you might have moved house, lost a family pet, the family may be richer or poorer, someone may be sick. There's so many different things that can change the environment in which that child arrives and then grows up. Not to mention the fact that they may have no children above them. They may be in an adult environment when they're born or put in the river, or there may be four other kids who welcome them when they come home from hospital. So really, it's impossible for us as siblings, even though we share a lot. And the paradox is there's no one else that can really go back there with you other than your siblings. Even when they do, they're not really going back to your childhood. We have such main character energy. We're all going back to our own individual childhoods.

A (12:40)

I know there's been a lot written and talked about regarding birth order. And I also know a lot of it has been debunked that just because you're the oldest doesn't necessarily mean this, and just because you're the youngest doesn't necessarily mean that. But what about birth order? What do we know is true?

B (13:00)

I mean, you're totally right. There's nothing deterministic about it. So if you are the firstborn, it doesn't sort of mean therefore these things will happen in your life or you'll be this kind of person. That said, I mean, there are some studies that show that firstborns, and this is Western centric again, tend to score slightly higher in IQ tests. And the reasons for that, because I've described all of those other environmental things, might simply be more resources, more time, money and attention given to the firstborn, or a greater expectation that that child as their first might sort of embody the family narrative or carry a flag for the family and achieve on behalf of the family, if you see what I mean, kind of represent them in the world. And what's really interesting in studies where they look across lots of families, so not just within one hierarchical family is that if, sadly, the oldest child dies, often the next child who sort of becomes, although they might not describe themselves like that, the de facto only child then goes on to score similarly in IQ tests and achieve similarly in their careers. If you're taking certain markers as indicators of success, go into good jobs and earn good money. So there does seem to be something about being the firstborn, for example, I will say in other cultures, of course, if you're the firstborn boy in some parts of the world, you might not score highly on those IQ tests because you might be taken out of education early to go and work to contribute to the family. So it really is culturally dependent as well.

A (14:42)

I'm curious how gender, the gender of siblings plays a role in how their relationship goes in just a moment. This time of year, springtime always does this to me. I start looking in my closet thinking, I don't need more clothes, I just need better clothes. Fewer things, but ones I actually want to wear. Which is why I keep going back to Quint's. Their stuff. It just feels easy. The fabrics are great, like their linen pieces, which are perfect for this time of year. Lightweight, breathable, but they still look so put together. I've also been wearing their pants and polos a lot. They've become my default comfortable, good fit. And they hold up. And then you look at the price and it's like, wait, really? Because Quint's cuts out the middleman. So you're getting quality materials without paying for a name brand, which honestly makes getting dressed a lot simpler. And my wife buys almost all of her clothes from Quince too. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to Quince.comSYSK for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Quince.com SYSK for free shipping and 365 Day returns. Quince.comSYSK you ever notice how a lot of people have a business idea and it just kind of sits there? Not because it's a bad idea, but because starting it feels like such a project. You've got to figure out a website and payments and marketing. It's a lot. That's why I love Shopify. It takes all of that and puts it in one place so you can actually just start. You can build a store really quickly using their templates, and it doesn't look like something you just threw together. It looks fabulous. And their AI tools help with things like product descriptions, headlines, even photos, which is usually where people get stuck. And once it's up, Shopify helps you find customers too. Email, social, all built in so you're not sitting there wondering, oh, okay, now what? It's why so many businesses use Shopify. From big brands to people just getting started, it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial at shopify.comsysk go to shopify.comsysk that's shopify.comsysk I'm speaking with Catherine Carr. She's author of the book who's the the Loving? Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships. So, Katherine, what about the mix of boys and girls, sisters and brothers? Does it matter or are siblings siblings? And they just do what they do?

B (17:51)

They just do what they do. There's a study at the University of Utah that looks at sort of rebellious teenage behavior. And Dr. Sean Whiteman, who's the guy who did that, he concluded that gender really does matter for a number of reasons. His overarching conclusion is that sister, sister relationships tend to be closer generally and over time. And certainly as I was saying at the beginning, like in old age, let's imagine we end up in a care home together with our siblings. Sisters there tend to be closer, followed by sister brother relationships and then brother brother relationships tend to be, he finds, more conflictual and less close. The really interesting thing about his study, which, as I said, looks at rebellious behavior, is that more than gender or age gap or anything like that, it's when kids hit puberty that matters. So he found that brother, sister, siblings could be very close in if the brother is two years older and hits puberty at exactly the same time as the girl does, because that's what tends to happen with boys and girls. So it's something about being at the same developmental stage, which helps with closeness. Which might explain why so many twins, I mean, there's lots of other reasons but feel particularly close. And it might also explain why in early adulthood, as I said, when we're going out into the world and trying to shed our childhood identities, we often go into different life stages, get married or get a job or buy a dog or find a partner and you can sort of leave each other behind at that stage in your 20s, you know, you can feel like you're catching up or dragging. And siblings often then feel very distant, maybe for the same reason. So that research really fascinates me. But I will say one thing that I think sister sisters being close over time, my theory is that that is partly to do with care. Because all the studies show that care for elderly parents is still really gendered and that women do the lion's share of it. Daughters, sisters. So maybe there's something about the girls in a family and the emotional labor they end up doing, all the physical caring they end up doing, bringing them into intimacy, if you see what I mean.

A (20:07)

Yeah, yeah. Well, that happened in my family. My sister, they're four boys and a girl. And when my mother got very sick, it's not even like we talked about it much. My sister just kind of assumed the role of caregiver. She just assumed it. And there's also that issue that we had in our family too, where my older brother and I are a year apart and then there was a five year gap and my parents had three more kids. So we were never really that close with the younger three. Because five years growing up is a big difference.

B (20:44)

It's a really big difference. Even outside of sibling groups, people still say nonsensically, sometimes until they're really quite old, about people they were at school with, oh, they were in the grade below or the year below. Like that matters when you're 28. People still say it, but you're right. I mean, the age gap thing is so interesting. A lot of the studies about it, cheeringly as a woman who's had babies do tend to focus on recovery and a good age gap for a woman to kind of get over one pregnancy before embarking on another. But if you're looking at the ways that siblings influence each other, you talked about that right at the beginning. And sibling relationships have been described to me as the missing part of psychoanalysis. If you're looking at influence, then anything more than four years starts to be really tricky to sort of track influence. According to research, the two and three year typical age gap, you can really see the modeling and the imitating that goes on between the littler and the bigger. So it makes sense to me that you felt, I don't know if you did, but it sounds like you might have felt like two groups.

A (21:55)

I have always remembered, I don't know where it comes from, but that somehow that there's a stigma about only children, that, you know, you really should have more than one because then they learn social skills or. I mean, I don't know what the arguments are, but what does the science say about families where there are siblings and versus families where there are only children?

B (22:22)

I knew all the stereotypes. I mean, I know all the stereotypes about only children and they're, they're Largely negative, right. And then when I looked into it and where those stereotypes came from, it's almost like a joke. I couldn't believe it. It's this researcher in inverted commas in that he was a contemporary of Freud's in the 19th century, late Victorian era and he was in the States and he had a very free ranging childhood growing up with cousins and siblings and animals. And he concluded that was good, that's the way kids should grow up. And then when he got a bit older, he did a piece of investigating into it. He asked various schools around the States to send cases of peculiar and exceptional children. And these could be children with a whole load of different things going on. And they sound very Victorian and old fashioned to us now, like cleft palate maybe, or gluttony or nervousness or I mean really a funny list of things. And when these bits of evidence again in inverted commas came back, this guy, Granville hall was his name, he concluded that a greater number than average of these peculiar or exceptional children were only children. And so he concluded if you were an only child, you were more likely to be peculiar or exceptional. It's so far away from scientific research you can't even imagine. But it sort of stuck, this idea that only children were lonely. And Manager, I think was his conclusion stuck. And then because the Great Depression followed quite swiftly after he'd published his research. And having an only child was, could be a symbol of not having enough money to have any more children. So there was another stigma to add on to his silly research. These stereotypes are so deeply embedded, even though research after research after research paper has proven almost the opposite, that only children, while they might struggle a little bit socially to begin with because they've not been in an environment all the time with other children like siblings might be, by the age of 12, it's all evened out and the scores are pretty much equal. And more than that, whereas siblings can take each other for granted that they're always going to be there and they can be, you know, play a bit fast and loose with each other's feelings and be a bit unkind and just think, well, they're blood, they're not going anywhere. Only children don't take relationships with friends that they make for company for granted at all. So they can actually be better at nurturing and keeping and respecting friendships than kids with siblings. It's so interesting that it's almost the reverse of what you might assume.

A (25:12)

What about sibling relationships that we haven't talked about yet, do you think is important because it's a subject we don't talk about a lot in general. And I'm sure I've missed something. So what have I missed?

B (25:25)

I don't want to be bleak at the end, but I would like to talk about bereavement as the real big one. Because if 80% of us have a sibling, then you can do the maths on how many of us will lose a sibling. They call those people who've lost a brother or a sister the forgotten mourners. And my looking into that took me to the poetry of Wordsworth and to all other sorts of places. And it made me really, really think because. And here's the takeaway that I'd love people to think about. These relationships are so unusual. They're unique. No other relationship in our life really goes from vertical to horizontal, from hierarchical to peer. We don't generally sort of do that in life. They evolve so much. And if we lose our sibling as adults, let's say, when we've become equal and yet we have this hinterland, this kind of huge, shared, complicated past, you might lose a big chunk of your history or a big bucket of your memories. And this horizontal grief, people just don't allow for it. They ask the sibling to take care of the parent who's lost the child or the child who's lost the parent. And they don't look left and right at this person. And it's described in one of the books I read as if Africa's vanished off the map overnight. Your whole landscape completely changes and it's seismic, and I don't think we think about it enough. And it is a bit downbeat. So I don't want to make people feel depressed with that, but I think it's important as well.

A (27:04)

Well, this whole topic of sibling dynamics and relationships over time, it affects so many of us, yet we don't talk about it much. So I appreciate you sharing all you know about it. Katharine Carr has been my guest. She is Catherine Carr has been my guest and she's author of the book who's the the Loving? Messy Realities of Sibling Relationships. And there is a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Katherine, this was really interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

B (27:33)

Thank you so much, Mike. I really enjoyed talking about that and I thought your questions were spot on.

A (27:39)

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C (27:54)

K Pop Demon Hunters, Haja Boy's Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take

B (28:06)

breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

A (28:08)

It is an honor to share.

C (28:10)

No, it's our honor.

A (28:12)

It is our larger honor.

C (28:13)

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

A (28:22)

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last. Growing up, you were probably told, don't talk to strangers. And that idea tends to stick. Even as adults, when we interact with strangers, we often treat those conversations as trivial, just small talk that doesn't really matter. But what if that assumption is wrong? There's growing research showing that even brief interactions with strangers can have measurable effects, boosting your mood, reducing feelings of loneliness, and and even improving your overall sense of well being. In other words, those quick, casual exchanges may be doing far more than you realize. My guest has spent years studying this. Gillian Sandstrom is a professor in the psychology of kindness at the University of Sussex. Her research has been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post. And she is author of a book called Once Upon a Stranger the Science of how small talk can add up to a big life. Hi, Gillian. Welcome to something you should know. Hi.

C (29:33)

Thanks so much for having me.

A (29:34)

Sure. So my sense about interacting with strangers is those interactions are necessary. You have to get through the day, and part of that is to interact with strangers. And sometimes they're fun, but oftentimes they're very simple and they're very quick and they're over with and you don't think about them again. And that's kind of how I think about it, is that I don't think a lot about them. But you clearly do. So explain that.

C (30:04)

Yes, I do. Gosh, there's so many places to start in answering that question. I guess one place to start is to say I think you're right, that most conversations with strangers are nothing special, maybe just sort of average. But there are so many times when I've had a laugh or I've learned something, someone has recommended something I found out about new opportunities, I've just seen a new perspective or a new way of living. And yeah, every once in a while, a few times, it's changed the course of my life. It's changed my career path more than Once. So I think there's a whole range of things and there doesn't always have to be something that comes from it. I think it's a shared moment of humanity, regardless of whatever else happens. And that in itself is meaningful.

A (30:55)

Okay, well, that's a good answer. But when you say it's valuable and meaningful, you mean sometimes it's valuable and meaningful because sometimes it seems pretty valueless and meaningless, really.

C (31:09)

Well, I guess. Fair enough. Like I said, most. The. Probably the average conversation is average. Right, Right. But I actually think it still matters because I think the cumulative effect of it, speaking from my personal experience now, having talked to hundreds and hundreds of strangers, now I feel like the cumulative value, just knowing that I could talk to pretty much anyone and have a decent conversation, that adds up to me walking around the world differently, feeling a little safer and more trusting and more positive about humanity. So even though most of what's contributing to that is just sort of average conversations, that cumulative effect requires all those average conversations.

A (31:56)

Yeah, well, I've always thought of it more this way, that in order to make a friend, you have to walk the path, which starts with that kind of stranger interaction thing. Nobody can be a friend until you talk to them first as a stranger. So you kind of have to go. Go through that. But that. That in itself is not all that meaningful. It's just. It's a chapter in the book that you have to get through.

C (32:22)

That's kind of a cynical way to think of it. I mean, that's definitely true because you know, pretty everyone that you know, unless you're related to them, they started off as a stranger. So you're right that any friend that we have started as a stranger. But I don't think we have to think about it in that kind of instrumental way. Like, I think most strangers are not going to turn into friends. And that's okay, that just having these small human moments of connection is valuable. They don't have to turn into anything else.

A (32:50)

Yeah, well, I didn't mean to be cynical because I share your view. I just. But I think that that's how a lot of people look at it. It is. It's a kind of a transactional thing that you kind of have to do. And I was thinking about this because I knew we were going to talk because I this weekend was in a situation where I went to a funeral and then the party after the funeral for someone I've never met, didn't know my wife, knew the daughter of this woman, but not really well. We kind of went in place of someone else who couldn't go. They were out of town. So we said, well, we'll kind of go on your behalf.

C (33:32)

That's kind.

A (33:33)

Literally did not know a single person at this party after the funeral, and everyone's talking about Peggy. Oh, my gosh, Peggy was so great. And I wouldn't know Peggy if I tripped over her. And so I had nothing to contribute to the conversation. I still got along fine and talked to some people, but it was a weird situation because I had nothing in common. And as we were talking before we started, you know, I can talk to anybody for 20 minutes. That's what I do for a living, and I'm very comfortable doing it. But it sometimes feels a little weird. And I think everybody has those weird stranger interactions where, like, you're just not in sync. You're not. Like, it doesn't work, and you say, get me out of here.

C (34:19)

So, absolutely. And what you're describing sounds like probably the hardest. Like that. That sounds like a particularly difficult situation because you can't. You don't want to change the topic. Right. Everyone's there to talk about Peggy, so you can't be like, so what do you do for fun? You know, like, it's. It's just. It's a really hard thing, and you don't have, you know, everybody else there has that thing in common, even if they've never met. So they probably were able to connect much more easily. But, yeah, I mean, I've had situations like that. I. You know, I've talked to so many strangers now I'm like, I can. I got this. And I went to a party for, you know, someone that I didn't know that well. I didn't know anybody else who was there. And I was put at a table with some people, and I thought, no problem. But I could not. Could not figure out how to connect with them. And I thought, you know, I've. I've lost. I've lost it. Like, what's going on here? And then the person who'd invited me to the party introduced me to someone at another table, and we instantly connected and hit it off. And I was like, okay, sometimes, you know, it's two people. Right? So it's. I think that's why it's tricky.

B (35:22)

Right?

C (35:23)

You know, it. Both people have to be willing to put in the effort. And, you know, and. And they usually are because no one wants an awkward conversation. Right. So both people are trying, but sometimes it just doesn't work. That's okay.

A (35:36)

Yeah. Sometimes it just doesn't work. But why do you suppose it is? Because I think this is true, that people, you know how you go to a party where you, like you did, you don't really know anybody. A lot of us feel like nobody really wants to talk to me or like I have nothing to contribute. And yet people wouldn't be there unless they were willing to talk. I mean, why would you go to a party and sit in the corner by yourself and not want to talk to anybody? But there is this reluctance to strike up a conversation, and I wonder why.

C (36:10)

Psychologists have done a lot of research that seems to suggest that humans just have this fundamental need to belong, right? Like, it's really, really important to us that we feel valued and seen and accepted and all that kind of stuff. So it feels really high stakes, any kind of social thing. And, and research suggests, like, we actually, most of us think that we're worse than average when it comes to chatting with people. So I think there's a lot of fear involved, right? We fear that we don't know how to do this and that that matters because belonging matters so much. But the good news is that, that we do worry way too much. So there's more and more research. My colleagues and I have done some research on something called the liking gap. And what we found is we asked people to talk to people that they'd never met before, and afterwards they thought they liked their conversation partner more than they thought their conversation partner liked them. So basically what we found is people like you more than you think.

A (37:14)

Yeah, that's nice to know. That's nice to know.

C (37:16)

And there's lots of, lots of similar research showing, you know, we worry more about giving someone a compliment or doing something kind for someone or offering advice. So most of the time these kind of things are more appreciated and less awkward than we think they're going to be. So it feels like we have this sort of general sort of distrust of our own competence when it comes to these kind of social things.

A (37:44)

I think one of the things people struggle with is that first. Hi, I'm Bob. How are you? Breaking the ice, I guess, is the hardest part, because once you're in a conversation, you're in a conversation and theoretically you could maneuver in that, but it's starting it off that seems to be a problem. Do you have some suggestions or advice on how to do that better?

C (38:09)

Yeah, I mean, I think you're. I think you're right, and I think it's just not the norm, at least not in many places to talk to People that you don't know. And so when we do it, I think there's that moment at the beginning where people are a bit confused and maybe even concerned, right? They're like, who are you? Do I know you? What do you want? What is happening right now? And so there's that moment. Moment of just the other person trying to figure out what's going on. And I think to some extent, if you sort of accept that that's going to happen and just keep going a little bit, usually you end up getting to a point where people realize you're just being friendly and then everything's okay. But I think there are some shortcuts that get you past that. So. And I think, you know, there's. If you provide people. If your conversation starter provides people with a reason why you're talking to them, then you get to skip that awkwardness. So I talk in my book about three different ways that I've. I've reflected on how I tend to start conversations. And there's three different kind of main strategies. So they spell the word quick. So the qu is for question, the I C is for in common, and the K is for kindness. So asking someone a question about, you know, their tattoo or their airplane earrings or, you know, the T shirt for the race that they've just run or that kind of thing, people are generally happy to tell you about themselves, and that can sort of skip the awkwardness a little bit, or commenting on something that you see around you, which I think is why people talk about the weather. But, you know, comment or commenting on, you know, their T shirt, which is, you know, for a band that you are a fan of or, you know, making a comment on what they're reading, those kind of things. You know, people understand why you've reached out or giving someone a compliment, offering them some help or directions, all those kind of things might help you get past that little awkward moment that often starts the conversation.

A (40:14)

And sometimes, I mean, it just seems that people don't want to put in the effort. I mean, not in a selfish way. It's just like. It's just you're not in the mood. You don't. Maybe you're tired. You just don't want to put in the effort to have a conversation. You'd just rather stay by yourself.

C (40:31)

You know, I get that reluctance to not want to reach out, but sometimes it helps pass the time. You know, like if you're standing in a line somewhere and it's really boring and you're getting frustrated, if you just turn and talk to the person standing next to you. It helps pass the time. It helps you not get so frustrated. Right. Or if you're in a waiting room at the doctor's office and you're feeling a bit anxious because you're getting a test result or something. And if you chat with someone else in the room past the time flies and you don't think so much about your anxiety. So I think it helps get you out of your own head.

A (41:03)

Yeah. Well, that brings up an interesting point because that makes a lot of sense. But what a lot of people do now is whip out their phone and don't look at anybody or talk to anybody. And in their own. In their own little bubble.

B (41:17)

Yeah.

C (41:18)

And I mean, obviously that makes sense because their phone is full of entertainment. Right. I had someone ask me that once. They said, why would I talk? Why would my daughter talk to a stranger when she can pull out her phone and watch the most interesting people on the world in the world on TikTok? And that's a hard thing to counteract. But the thing that I think about is there's more than one thing because I've come to enjoy it so much that it's just fun for me. Like, I know if I push past the little bit of, you know, reluctance that's still there or, you know, muster a little bit of energy, that I'm likely to enjoy it. But also I feel like it's doing something, it's putting something positive into the world. Because we have fewer touch points, we have fewer opportunities to engage in these kind of interactions because we're doing more things online, we're working from home. You know, we can go to the self checkout at the grocery store. So we don't have as many humans touch points. And I think that that, like, if you multiply that and you think of what that means long term, I don't like where that's heading. You know, I don't know how we work together to solve the world's problems if we're too scared to talk to our colleague because we've never had practice talking to a stranger. We've never had practice, you know, finding our way in a conversation. So I feel like having these kind of conversations is really important to sort of build our social skills so that we can use them in other places where they're really important. Like you want to find, you know, thinking of young people who want to date or, you know, find a romantic partner, get married someday. How are you going to go on a date if you can't talk to someone, you know, like, so you need to have ways to practice those skills so that when you're in the kind of situation that really matters, that you don't feel so uncomfortable. And I just think it's a really human, meaningful thing to do for our world. You know, I think it makes people feel more trusting of each other. And that feels really, really important right now.

A (43:21)

I think there just is this default thing. In fact, I just. I think it was in an interview not long ago. Someone was talking about some research where people who were on a commuter train who never looked or talked at each other were asked to do that. And pretty much everybody came away thinking this was great, but yet nobody ever thought to do that. They thought, I'm just going to bury my head in my newspaper or my telephone or whatever. But when they were actually in conversations with people that they've seen every day, they actually liked it.

C (43:58)

Yeah, that's work by Nick Epley and Juliana Schroeder. And I did a similar study at Starbucks where I had people go into the coffee shop and. And either I instructed them to act really efficiently, to have their money ready and avoid talking as much as they could. You have to talk a little bit to place your order, or I asked them to go in and turn that interaction that could have just been a, you know, I give you money, you give me coffee, but to turn it into something more social. And when people came out with their coffee, I got them to fill out some questions. And, you know, people who'd had, who'd taken advantage of that moment and turned it into something a bit more social were just in a better mood and felt more connected to other people and were more satisfied with their experience.

A (44:42)

Yeah, well, and it makes sense when you say it. And I would think most people would agree. Yeah, I've had those experiences where I enjoyed that. It was fun. You know, it wasn't necessarily life changing, but it was. It would put a little spark in the day. And yet there's this reluctance to do it. This feeling like, oh, this is just not worth it.

C (45:05)

You know, since I've started talking about this research, doing this research and talking about it, I really have the strong feeling that so many people want to do this but feel like they're not allowed or feel like they don't have the skills to do it. So it seems to me that when I say this, people are like, oh, I want to do that. I'm going to give that a try. I don't feel like it's the same as, you know, trying to encourage people to go to the gym and get some more exercise. Something that we know is good for us, but we, a lot of us were like, we really don't want to do that. I don't feel like talking to strangers is the same. I feel like a lot of people can. Can sort of sense that there might be something worthwhile here and just need a bit of a nudge.

A (45:47)

Well, sometimes those stranger interactions can be fun and. And there's something to them, but sometimes there's not. So you just have to, I guess, decide whether it's worth the effort. Gosh.

C (45:59)

Well, I've heard so many fun stories, so I've had a lot of laughs, which to me is a lot more fun than, you know, sitting on the bus or sitting on the train in silence. I've had recommendations for restaurants and walking trails and theater and, you know, places I should visit. I've had people give me free vegetables when I talk to them outside the community garden. I've had a lift from people. I've gone over to someone's house because they invited me over to have a drink. So I feel like there are some tangible things, but also I like the idea of doing it just for the humanity of it and not because there might be instrumental benefits.

A (46:42)

But what's interesting is I bet everybody could say that, that everybody who thinks back to their interactions with strangers have gotten those benefits. In retrospect, you see what they were. But going into it, you think, there's nothing going to happen here, so why bother? I think it's. But I think you're right. I mean, everybody's had those benefits. I think about your own life. I mean, some of the biggest changes in your life, good and bad, but were because you ran into somebody or you met somebody on a plane, or you, you know, somebody introduced you to them and that person gave you a job. I mean, that's how everything starts.

C (47:23)

I think life is unpredictable, right? I think a lot of things, you know, you just one moment that you never expected leads to something else, which leads to something else. Like, we can't predict what's gonna happen. And so these little moments are the big moments sometimes.

A (47:39)

Well, I think all of us can search our memories and find a time when one of those stranger interactions has been something special, something delightful, something wonderful.

C (47:52)

And I think it's just such a source of novelty. Right. And I think that's what makes it scary, is that it feels like every single interaction, you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know this person. You know, it's not possible to be able to predict what's going to happen. But that's also the joy of it. You know, that these magical moments can happen where, you know, someone connects with you over something or, you know, I've. I've met so many interesting people. You know, I met a sperm bank manager. I met someone who does bat. Bat first aid. I've met something called a lookerer, which seems like a very English thing. It's a volunteer who, who takes. Keeps an eye on cows. And she. She knew exactly which cows like to have their heads scratched. I've met a children's book author. You know, it's just. It's just a way that opens up your world and makes your life a little bit richer.

A (48:42)

Did you say you met someone who does bat first aid?

C (48:46)

Yes, I met that person at a cathedral, at Durham Cathedral in England. And there's bats that live at the cathedral and they get dehydrated and they actually fall and land on the ground. So in the morning, the volunteers come in and they scoop up all the bats that have fallen down and they take them home and administer first aid. The bats are. Okay, right? Like, you didn't need to know that. But that, that's like, I. I had no idea that that was a thing. And I learned that just because I asked someone, what are you doing?

A (49:22)

Well, it's so much fun to talk about because we've all had these stranger interactions. We can all relate to this and the good ones, the bad ones, and the ones that were surprising. And I like to hear about your research. It's great. Gillian Sandstrom's been my guest. She is a professor at the University of Sussex in the UK and she's author of the book Once Upon a the Science of How Small Talk Can Add Up To A Big Life. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Gillian.

B (49:50)

Thank you.

A (49:54)

Have you heard of telomeres? They're these protective little caps on your DNA, kind of like the plastic tips on a shoelace. Every time your cells divide, those caps get a little shorter, and when they get too short, cells stop functioning properly. Here's where it gets interesting. Research has found that chronic stress is linked to faster telomere shortening, meaning the wear and tear of stress may actually show up at the cellular level. Some studies have found a link between personality traits like impatience and shorter telomeres, but scientists aren't sure what is the cause and what is the effect. Does having shorter telomeres make you impatient, or does impatience shorten your telomeres? What they do know is lifestyle factors like stress, sleep, exercise, and diet all appear to influence how quickly your telomeres shorten. So aging isn't just about time. It may also be about how you live that time. And that is something you should know. And if this episode made you think or smile or you learn something new, I hope you'll share it with someone you know. Just hit the share button and help us spread the word. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something youg Should Know.