Podcast Summary: Why Success is Never Quite Good Enough & How Evolution Gave Us Free Will

Podcast: Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guests:

• Laura Gassner Otting, author of Wonderhell: Why Success Doesn't Feel Like It Should and What to Do About It
• Kevin Mitchell, Associate Professor at Trinity College Dublin, author of Free Agents: How Evolution Gave Us Free Will
  Date: November 22, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Mike Carruthers explores two thought-provoking topics:

1. Why success often leaves us wanting more, and how to productively handle this constant striving with insights from Laura Gassner Otting’s concept of 'Wonderhell'.
2. The ongoing debate over free will—do we really make our own choices?—with neuroscientist and geneticist Kevin Mitchell, who argues we genuinely have agency. Practical communication tips and linguistic trivia are also woven in, making this a varied and reflective episode.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Science of Leaving Effective Voicemails

Guest Mentioned: Bill Jensen, author of Simplicity Survival Handbook
Key Points ([02:41]–[05:43]):

• Voicemails should be no longer than 15 seconds; attention drops sharply after 30 seconds.
• Leave one clear message requesting one clear action.
• Structure:
  • The one thing I want you to know
  • How this will feel when you’re done
  • The one thing I want you to do

2. Wonderhell: The Paradox of Success

Guest: Laura Gassner Otting
Major Segments: [05:43]–[29:59]

What is "Wonderhell"?

• Wonderhell is where “the burden of your potential lives.”

“It’s amazing and it’s humbling and it’s wonderful, but it’s also kind of hell.” — Laura Gassner Otting [06:07]

• After a success, we immediately wonder what more we can accomplish, leading to excitement, doubt, stress, and the next big challenge.

The Structure of Wonderhell

• Otting structures Wonderhell as an amusement park with three towns:
  • Impostertown (imposter syndrome)
  • Doubtsville (uncertainty and anxiety)
  • Burnout City (exhaustion from striving)
• Not about constant hustling, but about understanding natural human drive for more.

Action Over Stagnation

• Study cited: People who flip a coin on a big decision (e.g., “Should I quit my job?”) and act on 'Heads: Yes' are happier even years later than those who don’t act.

“Action beats stagnation. Even if the decision wasn’t ‘right,’ they still grew and learned.” — Laura Gassner Otting [13:33]

Living Without Regret

“The number one regret of the dying was, ‘I wish I had the courage to live the life I really wanted to live.’ Living with regret is far scarier to me than living with failure.” — Laura Gassner Otting [14:28]

• Failure is preferable to regret; it's an opportunity for growth.

The Role of Failure and Passion

• Failure is not an end point, but a fulcrum for growth.

“Failure is not finale, it’s fulcrum.” — Laura Gassner Otting [27:32]

• Passion should be about what we're willing to persist with through failures, not what feels good at all times.

“Tell me what you would do if you knew for sure you would fail, and yet you would do it over and over until you got it right. That’s your passion.” [28:43]

Gender Differences in Ambition ([19:23])

• Men often “apply for jobs with 50% of qualifications,” while women wait until near-perfect fit.

“Men have confidence, women look for competence.” [19:48]

• The best careers and growth come from chasing goals where you don’t have all the answers yet—if you did, it’d be boring.

Failure and Social Pressure

• Social media distorts the narrative, making others’ successes look easy.
• Most “overnight successes” are years in the making, involving much unnoticed, unglamorous work.

3. Free Will: Do We Really Make Choices?

Guest: Kevin Mitchell
Major Segments: [35:02]–[55:36]

The Philosophical Dilemma

• Some thinkers (e.g., Robert Sapolsky) argue our choices are determined by genetics, upbringing, or the deterministic universe—thus, no true free will.
• Mitchell disagrees:

“It’s absolutely the bedrock of our everyday experience that we make choices, we decide what to do.” — Kevin Mitchell [35:24]

Nature of Influence vs. Determination

• Influences (genetic, environmental) shape us but don’t dictate our every move.
• Recognizes the legal and moral consequences of the debate (responsibility, criminal justice, etc.).

“If it can’t be said you really made a decision, how could you be held responsible for it?” [39:45]

• The legal system already accounts for nuance: competence, mitigating circumstances, etc. No need to throw out the idea of responsibility.

The Case for Free Will

• If free will didn’t exist, punishment or praise would lose meaning.

“My own feeling is that to deny free will really strips us of our human dignity.” — Kevin Mitchell [53:35]

• Humans (and animals) act as causal agents—doing things for reasons.
• Example: Adjusting speed on the road after a law changes—done deliberately, not pre-programmed. [52:04]

The Experience of Agency

• Humans have metacognition: The ability to reflect on, and sometimes change, our own decisions.
• Acknowledges that while we don’t always have "our hands tightly on the wheel," we can and do frequently "grab the wheel." [49:28]
• Agency is both real and essential for our sense of self and dignity.

4. Language Nugget: "A Whole Nother"

Timestamps: [56:09]

• “Nother” isn’t officially in dictionaries but is a misdivision from “another/other.”
• Merriam-Webster notes its evolution in common speech.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On embracing ambition:
  “Once they embraced this ambition, they always ended up leaving the organization within a year because suddenly they wanted that role.” — Laura Gassner Otting [10:13]

• On social media and the myth of instant success:
  “We see a lot of overnight successes. What we don’t see are the hours and years of dark work.” — Laura Gassner Otting [22:52]

• On women and job applications:
  “I had to beg women who were like 98% qualified... Men would say, well, I’ve got 50% and I’ll learn the rest on the job.” [19:34]

• On human dignity:
  “The idea that we have personal responsibility is part of that picture of human dignity—that we are actors, we have autonomy, we really can cause things.” — Kevin Mitchell [53:35]

• On changing behavior:
  “If there’s a law, a speed limit on a road... a lot of people who would normally drive 70 will now drive 60. Not because they were pre-programmed, but because they made a choice.” — Mike Carruthers [52:06]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Effective Voicemail Tips: [02:41]–[05:43]
• Introduction to Wonderhell: [05:53]–[07:16]
• Why Success Spawns More Ambition: [07:16]–[09:43]
• Advice for Navigating Wonderhell: [09:53]–[12:41]
• Action vs. Stagnation Study: [13:03]–[14:17]
• Reflections on Regret and Failure: [14:26]–[15:37]
• Competence, Confidence, and Gender: [19:23]–[22:26]
• Dealing with Failure: [27:08]–[29:59]
• Free Will Debate Intro: [35:02]–[36:56]
• Nature vs. Determinism: [36:56]–[39:19]
• Legal/Moral Implications of Free Will: [39:19]–[42:17]
• Agency and Everyday Examples: [44:35]–[53:10]
• Language Note on 'Nother': [56:09]

Tone and Language

The episode maintains an encouraging, reflective, and intellectually curious tone, with both guests and host using accessible language and frequent analogies (hiking mountains, amusement parks, marathons) to ground complex ideas. The conversations are candid, sometimes lightly humorous, and grounded in real-world experiences.

Final Reflections

This episode weaves practical tips, psychology, and philosophy into a compelling look at what motivates us to strive, how we handle the downsides of ambition, and what it truly means to be responsible, autonomous people. Listeners will walk away encouraged to both pursue big goals and to reflect critically on their own agency—and maybe even leave a better voicemail or rethink a well-worn phrase.

For more insights, check the episode show notes for links to the books discussed and to the contrasting interview with Robert Sapolsky on the no-free-will argument.