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Something You Should Know
Why Thinking Is Not All In Your Head & Secrets From the Longest Study of Happiness - SYSK Choice
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- [00:02]
Mike Carruthers
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Annie Murphy Paul
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Mike Carruthers
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Annie Murphy Paul
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- [00:16]
Mike Carruthers
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- [00:20]
Annie Murphy Paul
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- [00:23]
Mike Carruthers
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- [01:00]
Annie Murphy Paul
Today on Something you should know why human beings have an insatiable appetite for novelty and the consequences that result then Thinking outside the brain There are interesting ways you think you may not have noticed.
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Mike Carruthers
For instance, if you've ever had the experience of not quite knowing the right word, it's on the tip of your tongue, but you just can't seem to remember exactly what that word is. Your hands will often be giving you hints and that can help you locate that word.
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Annie Murphy Paul
Also, are you an introvert or an extrovert? I'll tell you how to tell and the best advice to create a fulfilling life and great friendships from an 80 year study.
- [01:43]
Robert Waldinger
If you see the same people casually over and over again, you're more likely to start to have conversations with them and then develop friendships that last.
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Annie Murphy Paul
All this today on Something you should know. Every time I've had to hire someone, it had to be done fast. But as I've discovered anyway, hiring can be very time consuming. And even still, there are no guarantees. Which is why when it comes to hiring, indeed is all you need, right? The trick to finding the right person is to make sure a lot of qualified people know about your job opening. And you see, Indeed has this thing called sponsor jobs. So your post jumps to the top of the page for relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want to reach faster. And it works. Now here's what I think is the magic of indeed. They take this process of hiring, which is something you probably don't do a lot or feel really skilled at, and they guide you through it. So you end up with the right person for the job quickly. Plus, with Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You only pay for results. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show. Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [03:32]
Robert Waldinger
Something you SHOULD know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you.
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Annie Murphy Paul
Can use in your life today.
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Robert Waldinger
Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers.
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Annie Murphy Paul
Hi, welcome to Something you Should know. Have you ever noticed how human beings have this tendency to seek out novelty and then relatively quickly become bored with it? What I mean is, for example, if you've ever moved into a new home or an apartment, just a beautiful home that you've always wanted, and then before too long it just becomes your home. This human quest to seek out new things, novelty and change, it dates back to early human history when we were forced to cope with huge upheavals in weather and environment. In order to survive, we had to adapt to those changes. Now we adapt to those changes and we become bored with it. Winifred Gallagher, author of a book called New, says if you show a newborn baby a picture, the child will stare at it for about 40 seconds and then become bored and will seek something else to look at. Our level of desire for change is really it's programmed into us. We know instinctively that reward comes from trying new experiences. Rewards seldom come from the same old thing. Research has found that about 15% of us like a lot of change. These are the real thrill seekers with a huge appetite for new experiences. 15% of us are cautious and tend to like just a little bit of change, and 70% of us are somewhere in the middle. It's good to know where you are on the scale and realize it's neither good or bad, it's just who you are. And that is something you should know. When you think, you think with your brain. Thinking is all in your head, right? Well, maybe not. You can think in other ways and in fact those other ways can improve your overall thinking. This is according to Annie Murphy Paul. She's a science writer whose work has appeared in the New York Times, the Boston Globe, Scientific American, Slate, and Time Magazine. She's author of a book called the Extended the Power of Thinking Outside the Brain, and she's here to Explain how outside the brain thinking works and why it's so powerful. Hi, Annie, thanks for coming on.
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Mike Carruthers
Hey, Mike, it's great to be here.
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Annie Murphy Paul
So first of all, explain what you mean by thinking outside the brain.
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Mike Carruthers
Sure. Well, what I mean by thinking outside the brain is that we usually imagine that thinking does go on inside the brain. That's kind of our. Our assumption as a society, as a culture. But an idea borrowed from philosophy says that actually, no, we think with all these resources that are available to us outside the brain. And by that I mean things like the movements and sensations of your body or the physical surroundings in which you're doing your thinking, or your relationships with other people, or even your tools like your devices or a pen or a piece of paper. All those things can be considered part of the thinking process. And that gives us a lot of additional ways to improve how well we think.
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Annie Murphy Paul
So give me like a practical example of one of these things and how it works.
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Mike Carruthers
So in a practical sense, Mike, one way that I end up applying the extended mind an awful lot in my work as a writer is that instead of doing all my thinking inside my head, when I'm laying out a chapter or an article, for example, I try as much as possible to get those ideas and that information out of my head and spread it out on physical. Onto physical space. So for me, that's a big bulletin board that I cover with post it notes that I can then move around and rearrange. And I find that getting information and ideas out of my head and seeing it spread out that way and being able to manipulate it allows me to think differently and better than if I were trying to do all of that inside my head.
- [07:49]
Annie Murphy Paul
Well, there has been a lot of talk about the brain is not a good place to store stuff. It's not a good place to do a lot of things. And that even getting your problems out on paper, out of your head and onto a piece of paper is a better way to go than to try to keep it all floating around in your brain.
- [08:08]
Mike Carruthers
That's right. And what you're saying there, Mike, brings out the point that we're already extending our minds. This isn't something that we need to start doing so much as something that we need to be more thoughtful and intentional about what we're doing already. So we want to think, for example, about the point that you just made, that the brain is not a great place to store information. It is a great place to do higher level cognitive activities like planning and creating and imagining. So the more we can Intentionally use our devices and other tools and outside the brain resources to take care of the more mundane and routine tasks that we might usually lean on our brain for, like remembering things and keeping things in order. If we can bring in outside the brain resources to do that for us, then we free up mental bandwidth to do the things that only human brains can do.
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Annie Murphy Paul
So you said, and you write about thinking with your body. So explain what that means.
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Mike Carruthers
Yeah. So one of my favorite lines of research about how we think with our bodies concerns how we think with gestures. And, and a lot of us, if we think about gestures at all, which mostly we don't, but if we think about gestures at all, we think about them as communicative, communicative devices. You know, like they're a way to communicate what we're trying to say to another person. And they do play that function, but they are also a part of our own thinking. And what research shows is that our hand gestures are actually a few milliseconds ahead of our verbal expression and even of our conscious thought. So before we even are saying something in particular, and before we even know that we're going to say something in particular, our hands are actually beginning to express that for us. And if we pay more attention to our own gestures and if we allow ourselves to gesture freely instead of, you know, inhibiting our gestures as many of us do, then that can feed into our thinking process such that our gestures are actually helping us to think more fluently and more coherently.
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Annie Murphy Paul
But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. How can my hands know what I'm going to do before I know what I'm going to do?
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Mike Carruthers
Yeah, well, the funny thing is that we associate mental activity with our conscious minds. But in fact, there's a huge amount of activity that's going on non consciously and a lot of that gets expressed through our bodies. So if you've ever had the experience of not quite knowing the right word, it's on the tip of your tongue, but you just can't seem to, you know, remember exactly what that word is. Your, your hands will often be giving you hints and trying to sort of in their own way express and capture what that word is. And that can help you locate that word that is just, just outside of, of your conscious awareness.
- [11:04]
Annie Murphy Paul
And so what would be a hand hint? What would be the, a hint that my hand would give me, for example, to remember a word, to pull a word up.
- [11:13]
Mike Carruthers
Well, let me tell you about a line of research that gave rise to this understanding of the function of gestures. So children when they are trying to understand how the material world works, their psychologists give them a set of challenges that involve, say, for example, pouring some water from a tall, skinny glass into a wide, shallow glass. And then the science. The researcher asked the child, is, is the amount of water still the same? And of course, older children will say, yes, that's. That's still the same amount of water. It's just sort of changed its. Its form. But younger children are still grasping that concept, and a lot of them will say, no, there's. There's less water now in the. In the wide glass because the level of the water is lower. But in children who are just about to grasp that very important conservation principle, their hands will be forming the. You'll watch the videos of these children explaining their reasoning, and you'll see that they're starting to form with their hands the shape of the glass and sort of working out with their hands what their minds are just beginning to grasp. And scientists have figured out that children and adults also, who are in that kind of transitional period where their hands are expressing something different from what they're saying verbally, that they're just about to get a big insight. And that's a moment when they're particularly receptive to instruction. And a teacher or a parent can step in and say, oh, I think what you might mean is this. And they're ready for that insight, ready to take that on.
- [12:53]
Annie Murphy Paul
Yeah, well, you know, it seems right. It sounds right. Because when you're trying to explain something and you're having trouble explaining, doesn't it seem like you gesture more, that you're using that as almost like a second language to try to explain yourself when you're having trouble, like there is something there?
- [13:13]
Mike Carruthers
That is absolutely true, Mike. Actually, research shows that we gesture more when we're trying to figure something out, when we're trying to explain something that we don't quite understand yet. And that's because that activity we're engaging in is so mentally burdensome and taxing that we offload some of that labor onto our hands. And that gives us more bandwidth to think about and solve the problem.
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Annie Murphy Paul
So when you talk about thinking with movement, do you mean, like, sometimes you think better when you go for a walk kind of movement?
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Mike Carruthers
Yeah. And one of the best ways to get our thinking moving is by going outside. And there's a couple reasons for that. One is that we get our blood pumping. More blood flows to the brain. But also there's the fact that our brain tends to think in metaphors. You know, and if you think about, if you're not, if your work isn't going so well, you might say something like, well, I'm really stuck in a rut, you know, or things are really stalled for me here. And if things are going well, you might say, wow, this is, I'm really on a roll here, you know, or things that my ideas are really flowing. So we really understand things in terms of metaphors that tie back to our bodies. So when we move our bodies in ways that sort of prime those metaphors for us, when we're actually moving through space and seeing, you know, things flow past our, our eyes and feeling that dynamic sense of, of new vistas coming into view, that really primes us to think in that same way. And if you think about how most, how most of us try to do our thinking sitting still, you know, seeing the same stuff around us all the time, that's not going to be an ideal setting for us to have the best kinds of thoughts that we could be having.
- [14:56]
Annie Murphy Paul
Well, I have that experience often when I, like when I do interviews and I'm sitting in a room and I'm surrounded by equipment and monitors and stuff, and later I'll be like out in nature and I'll think of much better questions I could have asked or taken the conversation in a different direction, but I didn't think of it at the time. In fact, I often will just when I'm trying to come up with ideas or whatever. Sitting here is like the worst place. Going outside or sitting on the couch or laying down, doing something other than sitting here trying seems to yield better results.
- [15:43]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, that's exactly right. And that's why I think the kind of cultural assumption that if you want to get work done, you really have to just bear down and kind of power through and keep your, keep yourself in your seat until it's done is really counterproductive. And I'm glad that you mentioned getting out into nature, Mike, because that is another way of thinking with our thinking outside the brain, thinking with our surroundings. And in fact, nature is one of the most generative and fertile kind of places, no pun intended, for us to think, to do our thinking. Because the kind of stimuli that we encounter when we're outside tends to naturally kind of relax the brain and put it in a very sort of easeful state where new ideas can occur to us, new sort of combinations of ideas can occur in a way that won't happen when we're engaged in very sharp edged focus inside or looking at our computers.
- [16:44]
Annie Murphy Paul
We are discussing Thinking outside the Brain. Which sounds weird, but the more we talk, the less weird it sounds. My guest is science writer Annie Murphy Paul, and she has a book out called the Extended the Power of Thinking Outside the Brain. I really love it when I find a great new podcast and then of course I have to share that with everyone. And one I really want you to listen to is Curiosity Weekly. Curiosity Weekly from Discovery make sense of some of the biggest questions and ideas shaping our world. It's all about new discoveries happening in science and tech. They have expert guests that make it all make sense. It's a bit similar to something you should know, which is why I think you'll like it, but it takes a different spin. Listen to Curiosity Weekly and you'll discover things like how neuroscientists are studying TikTok and social media habits to see which chemicals are being released in your brain that make you so obsessed. Or how it is that you can fly from Florida to England on a plane using recycled plastic jet fuel. And how AI can now read hieroglyphics from Egyptian pyramids. What's so great about Curiosity Weekly is there's so much to learn about science and tech and these guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of the most interesting stuff. Food science, the science behind social media, the science of algorithms, computer science. And it's all explained in a fascinating way every week on Curiosity Weekly. Listen to Curiosity Weekly. Wherever you get your podcasts, think about all the online businesses selling products, ones that you probably buy. Mattel, Gymshark, Untuck It, Magic Spoon. All solid businesses. But a key ingredient to any successful online business is the business behind the business that makes the whole selling and checkout process work. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify. Shopify is the number one checkout on the planet. And the not so secret secret is something they have called Shop Pay that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less carts going abandoned and way more sales going. So if you're into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. The fact is, businesses that sell more sell on Shopify, upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mattel and Gymshark and millions of other companies use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comsysk all lowercase go to shopify.comsysk to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.comsysk so Annie, we discussed how Being out in nature can help you think. But I also find that different rooms in the house or different rooms in other build the inside surroundings can also make you think differently. Like, I think better in a less cluttered environment than in a cluttered environment. And did you look at that?
- [20:18]
Mike Carruthers
Yes. And, you know, that's another way in which that sort of brain is computer metaphor falls down because a computer does its job just the same way, whether it's next to a window or in a dark basement, or whether it's, you know, outside on a park bench or inside on your kitchen table. But the human brain isn't like that. You know, we are exquisitely context sensitive. We really are affected by where we are at a given moment. And so that really tells us that we need to pay very close attention to the place where we're doing our thinking. You know, one of my favorite ways to improve the place where we do our thinking involves what researchers call evocative objects. And that just means filling your space, the space where you work or think or create with objects that are inspiring to you, that remind you of your aspirations, that remind you of the groups that you belong to, that you feel a kinship with. And having those objects, those material things around you can really shape and prime your thinking.
- [21:23]
Annie Murphy Paul
I've always noticed how there are certain people in my life that when I speak with them, I feel smarter. And there are other people that I know that make me feel really stupid. And so I imagine that has something to do with what you're talking about, that the people that we talk to, that we relate to, affect how we think.
- [21:47]
Mike Carruthers
Absolutely, Mike. And this is a really common phenomenon that you're mentioning. I tell a story in the, in the book about a researcher who said that when he met with his graduate advisor in psychology, you know, his psychology PhD program, this advisor was a very intimidating, very kind of scary figure. And, and he, he felt that this researcher felt that his IQ dropped by 20 points whenever this guy entered the room. And he started calling it conditional stupidity, you know, because he, he wasn't stupid. He was a very bright guy. But he, under certain conditions, as you say, he felt really stupid. I think that has a lot to do with the sense of psychological safety that we feel with certain people, but also their openness, their curiosity, their ability to ask good questions. Some people are just going to bring out the best in your own thinking, and other people are going to shut it down.
- [22:44]
Annie Murphy Paul
Yeah, and I think that's exactly right. When you're with somebody who thinks they know everything and won't shut up. It doesn't inspire you to think. It just. Just listening to somebody drone on versus somebody who is in inquiring about what you think, it goes well, yeah, let me think about that. And it seems to inspire a better conversation.
- [23:07]
Mike Carruthers
Sure. And it's nice to think, too, about whether we can be that kind of resource for other people as well. You know, whether we are a good conversational partner and are asking them questions or being open or being curious about what they have to say. Because that's sort of the essence of being a good colleague or even a good friend or a good parent.
- [23:28]
Annie Murphy Paul
And is this research ongoing? Is there more to come? Are we learning, or is it pretty much nailed?
- [23:37]
Mike Carruthers
No, this is a really dynamic area of research. And one of the sort of most exciting areas of research is pinning down exactly how we use our technological devices to extend our minds. And as we all know, our devices don't always make our thinking better. There's lots of opportunities to make our thinking worse when we're engaging with our devices. But again, if we're intentional and thoughtful about how we use our technological devices, they really can expand and extend our thinking. And so that's sort of the latest frontier of extended mind research is how our devices either extend or contract our thinking and how we can make sure they do the former and not the latter.
- [24:26]
Annie Murphy Paul
But they do ruin our thinking. I mean, when you think about, you know, just the idea of a calculator, I mean, so you don't have to know how to add or subtract anymore. I used to remember people's phone numbers. I don't. I don't remember anybody's phone number because you don't have to anymore. There's so much you don't have to remember and so much you don't have to think about, all because of those devices. And I'm not sure that's a good thing.
- [24:53]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah, well, it's somewhat inevitable at this point. So, again, the key is to be intentional about it. I mean, there is the danger that some of our native abilities will atrophy if we become too dependent on our devices. For example, there's research showing that people's ability to navigate through space really does decline if they become too dependent on GPS and those kinds of. Those kinds of technological solutions. On the other hand, there's so much that we're able to do because we delegate, you know, routine mental tasks to our devices. Like, you don't have to remember phone numbers anymore, and so you have more space in your mind to do you Know the higher level things that only Mike's brain can do, you know, so we need to think of our devices as, as helpers, but not as, not as replacing the mental activity that, that, that is really best suited to human intelligence.
- [25:50]
Annie Murphy Paul
Yeah, but see, I sometimes think that, you know, doing things like remembering phone numbers and knowing how to add and subtract is foundational to other things. And if you don't know how to do basic memory of numbers that you, you may not be do able to do other things very well.
- [26:08]
Mike Carruthers
Well, it definitely is the case. You know, sometimes you'll hear in education people saying, well, kids don't need to learn facts anymore because they can just Google that. But that is absolutely wrong. As you're saying, we need a foundation of knowledge and skill that is stored in our minds to become masters of any kind of domains. But the fact is that the human brain isn't really that good at remembering basic information like phone numbers. We forget things or we mess them up. And computers are better at that. They don't. Once we enter something into a computer, it usually doesn't change the way our minds can sort of betray us. So it's really a matter of learning to think with machines, learning to think with our technology and letting them do what they do best and then reserving for our own brains what our own brains do best.
- [27:00]
Annie Murphy Paul
Well, I know I've never thought about this before or discussed this before about thinking outside the brain. And what I like is it makes you think. It's an exercise in getting you to think about how you think, which I think is pretty useful. I've been speaking with science writer Annie Murphy Paul, and she has got a book out called the Extended the Power of Thinking Outside the Brain. And you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Annie.
- [27:33]
Mike Carruthers
Well, thank you, Mike. It's been a real pleasure talking to you today. I really enjoyed it. We're so done with New Year, new you this year it's more you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because.
- [27:53]
Robert Waldinger
You know what you want.
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Mike Carruthers
And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too be more you this year and find them on Bumblebee. The PC gave us computing power at home. The Internet connected us, and mobile let us do it pretty much anywhere. Now generative AI lets us communicate with technology in our own language, using our own senses, but figuring it all out when you're living through it is a totally different story. Welcome to Leading the Shift, a new podcast for Microsoft Azure. I'm your host, Susan Ettlinger. In each episode, leaders will share what they're learning to help you navigate all this change with confidence. Please join us, listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
- [28:36]
Annie Murphy Paul
Happiness is a big topic. As you know, we've discussed happiness here several times from different angles and with different guests. And a lot of those discussions are about some interesting, often helpful and unique ways to find happiness. Of course, a lot of it is subjective. What makes one person happy may not make another person happy. So what I like about my next guest is rather than talk about ways and ideas that might make you happier, this discussion is about a happiness study of the same people over a long period of time and the results of that study and how we can use those results in our own lives. Joining me is Dr. Robert Waldinger. He is a psychiatrist, part time professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and he directs the Harvard Study of Adult Development, one of the longest running studies of adult life ever conducted. The name of his book is the Good Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. Hi Robert, thanks for being here.
- [29:41]
Robert Waldinger
I'm really glad to be here.
- [29:43]
Annie Murphy Paul
So explain a little bit about this study and how it came to be.
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Robert Waldinger
So this study is the longest study of the same people that's ever been done. It's an 85 year long study of over 2000 people from 724 families. It was started in 1938, almost certainly could never be repeated again. The longest study of adult life that.
- [30:11]
Annie Murphy Paul
Anybody has done and in a very sweeping big picture way, what's the secret of happiness?
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Robert Waldinger
So the big takeaway is about relationships. We found that the people who were happiest and also who stayed the healthiest as they went through their lives were the people who had good warm connections with other people. And the surprise was not that it made us happier to have better relationships. The surprise was that relationships could make it less likely that we would get coronary artery disease or type 2 diabetes or dementia. I mean, this was the thing that at first we didn't believe until other researchers began to find the same thing.
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Annie Murphy Paul
So define some things here for me. So when we talk about warm relationships, what does that mean? Does that mean love relationships? Does that mean friendships? Does that mean and how warm and how close and how much and all that?
- [31:16]
Robert Waldinger
It means all kinds of relationships. So you don't have to have an intimate partner. You don't even have to live with anyone to get these benefits. What we're talking about are relationships that could be anybody. Family, friends, work relationships, and even casual relationships. Even the little hit of well being you get from the barista who makes your coffee for you in the morning, or the mail carrier, or the person who checks you out at the grocery store, that all of these give us a sense of connectedness. And then, you know, to your question, we feel that everybody needs one secure relationship, at least in their life. And what we mean by that is something we studied. We asked our original participants to tell us who could you call in the middle of the night if you were sick or scared? And most of our people could list a number of other people who they could call if they really needed help. Some of our folks couldn't list anyone. And a few of those folks were married, and they didn't list anyone. So what we think we need is at least one person who we feel will have our back when we're in trouble.
- [32:39]
Annie Murphy Paul
So, you know, I've heard this before, that having good, strong relationships in your life is good for your health. But I don't really understand how. Like, what's the mechanism? How does having people in your life translate into good health? What's the magic?
- [32:58]
Mike Carruthers
Yeah.
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Robert Waldinger
So we've been spending the last 10 years of our research lives studying exactly the question you just asked. The best hypothesis we have, and there's good data from other studies as well as ours, the best hypothesis is that relationships help us manage stress. So, you know, stress is a part of everyday life. It happens to all of us. And, you know, if something happens to me that's upsetting, I. I can feel my body rev up, my heart rate increases. All kinds of physical changes happen. And that's good. That's what we call the fight or flight response. That's normal. And then when the challenge is removed, our bodies are meant to go back to baseline equilibrium. And so what I find is that if something upsetting happens to me at the end of the day, if there's someone I can call or if I can talk to my wife and I can really vent, I can feel my body literally calm down, go back to equilibrium. The best hypothesis is that the people who don't have good relationships don't have anyone they can do that with. And that therefore their bodies stay in a kind of chronic fight or flight mode with higher levels of circulating stress hormones, with higher levels of inflammation. And we think that those are what break down different body systems. And so it's not magic at all. That's how chronic stress could break down your joints or your coronary arteries.
- [34:36]
Annie Murphy Paul
I had someone on recently and they said something about happiness that I really liked and I'd like to get you to comment on it. That happiness isn't like a thing you do or a thing you try to get. Happiness is a consequence of how you live your life, that you do other things and if they make you happy, then you feel happiness. But you don't go out and try to be happy. That doesn't work.
- [35:05]
Robert Waldinger
Yes, I love that. Actually, one of the ways that I've thought about it is happiness is kind of an accident. It happens to us moment to moment or not. But we can build our lives to make ourselves more accident prone, to make moments of happiness more likely to happen. And so what I would say is that we know now that there are certain conditions we can build into our lives that make it more likely that we will feel content or happy more of the time.
- [35:38]
Annie Murphy Paul
And what are some of those things?
- [35:41]
Robert Waldinger
Well, one thing will not surprise you, it's that if we take care of our health, it really makes a difference in our well being. So literally eating right, not abusing drugs or alcohol, getting regular exercise, getting that preventive health care, that all of those things make a huge difference in how we feel and in how long we live. But then in addition to that, building this network of good relationships is a really good investment in making it more likely that you'll be happy more of the time. And so what we think we'd like, what we would like people to do is see relationships as a kind of living, breathing system that needs caretaking and that we can take care of every day.
- [36:38]
Annie Murphy Paul
Another thing that this person talked about was the importance of not just the people in your life, but what you do, the fun things you do, the pleasurable things you do, that brings happiness, not just the people are important, but it's also what you're doing.
- [36:58]
Robert Waldinger
Yes, I agree. That's absolutely right. And so we want to try to build in things that we enjoy and also things that we find meaningful. So yes, fun is hugely important for all of us. But in addition, in addition to what's sometimes called hedonic well being, hedonism, like am I having fun now? There's also what's called eudaimonic well being and that's that sense of meaning and purpose in my life. So the other thing we want to build in besides fun is activities that make us feel that our lives matter and that they are worthwhile. It's both kinds of activities that we want.
- [37:44]
Annie Murphy Paul
And that includes things like what? Like what do you mean make your life worthwhile?
- [37:51]
Robert Waldinger
Well, it could be anything. It could be raising good children, healthy children. It could be working to prevent climate change. It could be joining a bowling league and being with people you love to hang out with, not just for the fun of it, but because you love those friends and you want to connect with them. It could be being involved in a religious or spiritual practice. There's so many things that can make life feel worthwhile and it's highly individual.
- [38:24]
Annie Murphy Paul
It does seem that there are people who this all the things you're talking about, friendships and meaningful life comes easy, it comes natural, and other people struggle with it. And I wonder why the difference.
- [38:39]
Robert Waldinger
That's a wonderful question, and I think the answer is undoubtedly going to be complicated. But I think many of us have been raised not to listen to ourselves, not to listen to our guts when they tell us, oh, I care about this. And when they tell us, I don't really care about that. You know, we're given so many messages about what we ought to think is important and meaningful. And sometimes it can be very hard, given all that messaging and all that training as kids to pay attention to what's energizing for us, what lights us up, what makes us feel like we want to get up in the morning, and then also to pay attention to those things that. That just aren't. That aren't like that for us. Even if other people care about something, we may not care about it. It's very important to listen to those messages that we can tune into if we just let ourselves.
- [39:39]
Annie Murphy Paul
There's this saying about when people are depressed, they want to do exactly the things that they shouldn't do. They want to stay at home, they don't want to, and people get stuck in their way. So it's great to hear that you should have more relationships and have a more meaningful life. But I know people struggle with. So like, so what do I do now? What do I do different? What does that mean, to do what he's talking about?
- [40:06]
Robert Waldinger
Well, you're exactly right. And one of the awful things about depression is it makes us hide, it makes us want to withdraw. It makes us believe that other people don't want us around. And so how do we overcome that when we're depressed? It's very, very hard. And I think in some ways the remedy can be for other people to pay attention. So if you notice that someone in your life seems depressed, it would be such A blessing if you could be the one to be active and say, hey, I want to connect with you, I want you around, I want to know how you are. I want to help. Right. Because the depressed person is handicapped in a way. It's almost like if we've broken a limb or we're in some other way disabled. Depression is very disabling. And so I think what you're pointing to is one of the scarier things about depression. And it's one of the reasons why we need help. We need a village. We need other people to notice and then to lend their energy to us and help us, help draw us out.
- [41:18]
Annie Murphy Paul
There are people who we would classify as introverts and who might say, you know, I don't need a lot of people. I don't need all this closeness. I'm fine by myself. Are they?
- [41:30]
Robert Waldinger
Yes, yes, absolutely. So what we know is that we're all on a spectrum from being introverted, shy, or being extroverted. We're all somewhere in between and, and many of us have both, both qualities in us. We're kind of shy and we also like being out there with people. There's no right way to do this life in that way. We all have different temperaments. What we find is that everybody, even the shyest people, need somebody, maybe just one or two of those warm relationships, those middle of the night calling relationships, you know, people who have our back. But that beyond that, it is just fine not to need a lot of people. One of the things we know about introverts is that they find having a lot of people around exhausting and depleting. They get re energized by having alone time. And with extroverts, it's often the opposite. Extroverts get energy from other people. And so, you know, when you study thousands of lives the way we have, the first thing you realize is that one size never fits all. There's no right way to have relationships. There's no correct number of relationships. It's a highly individual matter.
- [42:55]
Annie Murphy Paul
For a lot of people, I think the how is difficult. And I'm wondering if. Obviously friends come in all different ways and sizes and happenstance and all, but when people decide, okay, well, it would be great to have more people, they don't know how to draw them in. So how did the people in this study, if you looked at this how, when they made friends and when they made connections, how did they do it?
- [43:28]
Robert Waldinger
There are some fairly tried and true ways. So the first step might be to think about what you love to do and see if there's a way to do that alongside other people, to do that in a group. That could be anything. You know, it could be a gardening club, it could be a bowling league, it could be a church group. It could be working for a political cause. Because what happens is that if you're doing something you care about, first of all, it feels meaningful or fun. If you're doing it alongside other people, you instantly have one thing in common, which is you both like this thing you're doing or care about it. And that is a natural opener for beginning conversations. And one of the things that we know from research is that if you see the same people casually over and over again, you're more likely to start to have conversations with them and then deeper conversations and then develop friendships that last. So the bottom, you know, the. The instruction is figure out what you care about, what you love, what you enjoy, and try to do that with others.
- [44:47]
Annie Murphy Paul
I guess it's hard for a lot of people because we see other people where it just seems to happen. They have all these people in their lives, and it looked pretty effortless. And so you think, well, that's how it should be. It should. People just come into your life, and yet they don't. And then people think, well, see, I don't know how to do this.
- [45:07]
Robert Waldinger
Yeah. Yeah, I'm so glad you raised that point, because it does look effortless. It looks like other people have it figured out. I mean, think about how we curate our lives for each other. Look at social media. I mean, think about what we post for each other about our lives. I mean, I don't post the mornings when I wake up feeling awful, feeling like, you know, my life is a mess and I don't know what I'm doing. You know, nobody posts their hangover pictures. At least most people don't. Right. So we curate our lives. And. And even though we know that when. When we look at each other's Facebook posts or Instagram feeds, you can imagine that everybody's having an easy life. Everybody's got it figured out. Everybody's got people in their life except me. And that, I can tell you, is not the truth of life. Having studied thousands of life stories, that's just not the truth. And so I think part of it is trying to remember that nobody has it all figured out, ever. And that every life has difficulty and struggle.
- [46:15]
Annie Murphy Paul
You know, I like what you said a moment ago, that friendships develop when you see the same people, and then you. You have, you know, fairly surfacey conversations and Then they. And then the more you see them, the more the conversation deepens. And that's how it really is. And yet I think when people decide I want people in my life, I want them now, I want to go make a will you be my friend? Kind of thing.
- [46:41]
Robert Waldinger
Yeah.
- [46:42]
Annie Murphy Paul
And that's probably not the best way to go and do. Does take time.
- [46:48]
Robert Waldinger
Well, that's. That's important to point out. It takes time. Also, it's not going to work every time. So you may reach out to some people and they really don't reciprocate. I think of it more like, you know, a basketball game or. Or baseball, you know, where you have certain tries at bat or you try to make a basket. It's not going to happen every time, but it doesn't happen for anybody every time. That's okay. Expect that there will be some people who just don't respond or don't respond very warmly and try again. Keep trying. Because if you keep trying, you will find there will be people who do respond.
- [47:29]
Annie Murphy Paul
How much does family count in this? Do family members count as those kind of relationships that you need or not?
- [47:39]
Robert Waldinger
Absolutely. Family members count hugely. Many of the people we're closest to can be family. So, for example, I have two first cousins who are more like sisters to me, and I don't know why. It's just that we happen to have cultivated particularly strong relationships more than I might have with other relatives. Right. And so even within our families, we choose to be closer to some people than others. That. That's natural. But families can play a wonderful role in that network of good connections.
- [48:19]
Annie Murphy Paul
Well, and I imagine too, that. That it's ebbs and flows. I mean, who hasn't had a friend, a good friend, disappoint and not be your friend anymore or, you know, that. That there's satisfaction and dissatisfaction because people are flawed and relationships come and go. And so it isn't always rosy, even the people that do it.
- [48:42]
Robert Waldinger
Well, that's right. That's right. And in fact, one of the dangers of presenting these ideas in the way that I am is that I could give the impression that it's all got to be rosy all the time, that relationships have to be smooth. They're not. Relationships of any significance have difficulties, have differences. We disagree with each other, we disappoint each other. And I think what we find is that the people who worked at resolving differences, at mending fences were the people who were the happiest and most secure in their relationships. It turns out that if we can work out Our differences that the relationships get stronger and more stable.
- [49:27]
Annie Murphy Paul
Well, it's amazing what a few friends can do. I appreciate you sharing the information about your study. I've been speaking with Dr. Robert Waldinger. He's a psychiatrist and part time professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School. And the name of his book is the Good Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks, Robert. Good conversation.
- [49:52]
Robert Waldinger
Well, you're a really good interviewer and I love the questions. You took me to places I wouldn't have otherwise gone, you know?
- [50:01]
Annie Murphy Paul
Do you know the difference between an introvert and an extrovert? Well, according to Susan Cain, who is author of a book called Quiet the Power of Introverts, which was a big, big bestseller, introverts prefer quiet, minimally stimulating environments. Extroverts need higher levels of stimulation to feel their best. That stimulation can range from things like light and sound to social and physical stimulation. If you prefer a quiet glass of wine with a friend, you're probably an introvert. If you love a wild party full of strangers, you're an extrovert. Susan also points out that if you're the shy type, you're not necessarily an introvert. There is a real big difference between the two. You see, shyness is the fear of negative judgment, while introversion is simply the preference for less stimulation. Shyness is the feels uncomfortable. Introversion does not. And that is something you should know. And we're out of time. Hey, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to this. If they have a place where you can leave a rating and review, take a moment and do that for us. If you don't mind. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. Ladies and gentlemen.
- [51:19]
Robert Waldinger
What are you doing?
- [51:20]
Annie Murphy Paul
What do you mean?
- [51:22]
Robert Waldinger
Keep it simple? I'm making the promo.
- [51:24]
Annie Murphy Paul
Just keep it simple.
- [51:25]
Robert Waldinger
Just say, hey, we're the Brav bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo.
- [51:28]
Annie Murphy Paul
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, wear.
- [51:31]
Robert Waldinger
The Brav bros. No, dude, stop with the voice.
- [51:35]
Annie Murphy Paul
Just keep it simple.
- [51:36]
Robert Waldinger
I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are.
- [51:44]
Annie Murphy Paul
Gonna get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right then, fine.
- [51:48]
Robert Waldinger
Let's try to do it with your voice, bruv bros. Good job.
- [51:53]
Mike Carruthers
If you are caught up in the Barbenheimer Frenzy. If you love ranking the Mission Impossible films, if you are just an all around movie fan, I have a podcast for you. Hello, I'm Amy Nicholson. I'm a film critic who writes for the New York Times and I am also the co host of Unspooled, the ultimate movie podcast. Each week my co host Paul Scheer and I unspool famous films to see if they are truly all time classics. From the original 1984 Karate Kid to Children of Men to more recent pictures to Dune, yes to Citizen Kane, we cover it all. Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts.