Why We Are Obsessed With Butts & The Best and Worst Way to Apologize - SYSK Choice

Summary

Something You Should Know: Why We Are Obsessed With Butts & The Best and Worst Way to Apologize

Release Date: January 18, 2025

In this engaging episode of "Something You Should Know," host Mike Carruthers delves into two intriguing topics: the cultural obsession with human butts and the intricacies of making effective apologies. Through insightful conversations with experts Heather Radke and Marjorie Engel, listeners gain a deeper understanding of societal beauty standards and the psychology behind apologies.

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1. The Cultural Obsession with Butts

Guest: Heather Radke, author of "A Backstory"

Overview: Heather Radke explores the multifaceted fascination with human butts, unraveling the blend of biological reality and cultural symbolism that fuels this obsession. She discusses how societal standards have shifted over decades, influenced by fashion trends, media representations, and changing demographics.

Key Discussions:

• Anatomical Insights:

  • Radke clarifies the biological function of butts, emphasizing that the gluteus maximus is unique to humans. She debunks common misconceptions, such as the myth that women with larger butts are inherently more fertile.

    Heather Radke [07:56]: "Butts are basically joints. They are the joint where your hip connects to your leg. [...] Only humans have the gluteus maximus."

• Historical and Cultural Shifts:

  • The perception of butts has evolved significantly. Radke traces the idealization from the thin, androgynous figures of the 1920s to the aerobics-inspired "Buns of Steel" of the 1980s, and into the modern era where celebrities like Jennifer Lopez have popularized curvier ideals.

    Heather Radke [22:45]: "America was becoming less white, and also hip hop was becoming the dominant form of music. [...] you see the way that butts were a part of the hip hop beauty ideal."

• Fashion Industry Influence:

  • The fashion industry's role in dictating butt trends is emphasized. Radke discusses how societal pressures to conform to certain body standards are often unrealistic, leading to emotional struggles as individuals attempt to alter their natural physiques.

    Heather Radke [11:35]: "It's one of the only ways you can meaningfully change what your butt looks like [...] it's part of why it's so emotionally difficult to contend with."

• Celebrity Impact:

  • Celebrities play a pivotal role in setting butt trends. Radke highlights how figures like Jennifer Lopez in the late '90s shifted public attention towards more pronounced buttocks, intertwining beauty standards with cultural and musical movements.

    Heather Radke [24:36]: "We also choose the celebrities that fit the moment. [...] in 1997, when Jennifer Lopez was in this movie out of Sight, [...] they started asking her about her butt."

• Future Trends:

  • Speculation about the possible decline of the "big butt" trend is discussed, suggesting that fashion cycles will continue to seek balance by reintroducing slimmer ideals.

    Heather Radke [25:16]: "We're in a funny moment where there's been a number of articles predicting the end of the big butt trend."

Notable Quotes:

• Heather Radke [14:16]: "Probably your butt is attractive to somebody, and that's a great thing. Human variation is a wonderful part of what it is to be human."

• Co-host [20:22]: "There is more attention paid to women's butts than men's butts."

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2. The Best and Worst Way to Apologize

Guest: Marjorie Engel, author of "Sorry, Sorry: The Case for Good Apologies"

Overview: Marjorie Engel breaks down the anatomy of a sincere apology, highlighting why effective apologizing is challenging yet crucial for maintaining healthy relationships. She contrasts good and bad apologies, offering practical advice on how to navigate the delicate process of making amends.

Key Discussions:

• Anatomy of a Good Apology:

  • Engel outlines six essential steps for crafting a meaningful apology:

    1. Expressing Remorse: Clearly stating "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" without qualifications.
    2. Acknowledging the Offense: Naming the specific action or behavior that caused harm.
    3. Understanding the Impact: Demonstrating empathy by explaining how the actions affected the other person.
    4. Avoiding Excuses: Steering clear of justifications that undermine the apology.
    5. Commitment to Change: Detailing steps to prevent future occurrences.
    6. Making Reparations: Offering tangible means to rectify the situation.
    7. Listening: Allowing the offended party to express their feelings and perspectives.

    Marjorie Engel [29:18]: "A good apology really is six easy steps, maybe six and a half."

• Challenges in Apologizing:

  • The inherent difficulty in apologizing stems from our brain’s tendency to view ourselves as protagonists, making it hard to admit wrongdoing and see ourselves as the antagonist in someone else's narrative.

    Marjorie Engel [31:31]: "We see ourselves as good. Apologizing well means understanding that you were the bad guy in somebody else's story."

• Impact of Good vs. Bad Apologies:

  • Good apologies can mend relationships and build bridges, while bad ones often exacerbate conflicts. Engel provides examples of ineffective apologies, such as those that include conditional language like "I'm sorry if," which can invalidate the other person's feelings.

    Marjorie Engel [32:47]: "If you're apologizing to someone face to face and they're backing away from you, sometimes people move forward because they really want you to understand."

• Accepting Apologies:

  • Engel emphasizes that while apologies should be offered sincerely, forgiveness is not obligatory. She advises listeners to recognize when an apology lacks authenticity and to respond appropriately without feeling pressured to accept insincere apologies.

    Marjorie Engel [40:35]: "Apologies are mandatory. Forgiveness is not."

• Writing Apologies:

  • Engel suggests that written apologies can sometimes carry more weight, especially when they are free from ulterior motives and clearly express genuine remorse.

    Marjorie Engel [46:47]: "When somebody actually makes eye contact with you [...] an apology can be such a bridge-building, societally connecting, beautiful thing."

Notable Quotes:

• Marjorie Engel [32:13]: "We all see ourselves as good. We didn’t do anything wrong."

• Marjorie Engel [37:04]: "If you've been told and you still get it wrong [...] you owe someone an apology, but you also don't owe either you or them this theatrical, you know."

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3. Practical Takeaways

• Understanding Beauty Standards:

  • Recognize that societal ideals, especially regarding physical attributes like butts, are heavily influenced by cultural and media trends rather than fixed biological truths.

• Crafting Effective Apologies:

  • Follow the structured steps outlined by Engel to ensure your apologies are sincere and effective, fostering healthier interpersonal relationships.

• Self-Reflection:

  • Both segments encourage listeners to reflect on their perceptions—whether about body image or interpersonal conflicts—and understand the deeper cultural and psychological factors at play.

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4. Additional Resources

• Books Mentioned:

  • "A Backstory" by Heather Radke
  • "Sorry, Sorry: The Case for Good Apologies" by Marjorie Engel

• Guest Information:

  • Heather Radke explores societal beauty standards in her book, offering a comprehensive look at how body image trends evolve.
  • Marjorie Engel provides actionable advice on making effective apologies, drawing from psychological research and real-world examples.

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Conclusion:

This episode of "Something You Should Know" offers a fascinating exploration of societal obsessions and personal interactions. Heather Radke's insights into the cultural significance of butts reveal how deeply ingrained and mutable beauty standards can be. Meanwhile, Marjorie Engel's breakdown of apologies serves as a practical guide for enhancing personal relationships through sincere communication. Together, these discussions empower listeners with knowledge to navigate both societal expectations and personal dynamics more thoughtfully.

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For more insightful episodes and to explore the topics discussed, visit the show notes for links to Heather Radke's and Marjorie Engel's books.

Transcript

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[Heather Radke]

That's awesome.

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R A K U T E N.

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know why.

[Co-host]

You might want to deliberately lower the pitch of your voice then butts. Why does there seem to be such fascination with them?

[Heather Radke]

People often think like having a big butt or a small butt means something. So like, oh, women with big butts, they are more fertile. That's a really common, commonly held, really myth about butts. Yeah, lots of people say that to me. Have you ever heard that?

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, should you calculate the tip on a restaurant bill before or after the tax? And how to apologize because a good apology is golden.

[Marjorie Engel]

The steps for making a good apology are so easy and yet actually doing them is so hard because our brains are not wired for this. Apologizing is a really brave act.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Co-host]

Something you should Know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

[Co-host]

Hey, welcome to Something you Should Know. So when you Speak Depending on what your voice sounds like when you speak, you may want to try to lower the pitch of your voice.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why?

[Co-host]

Well, according to some pretty solid research, people who speak with lowered voices are perceived as both more prestigious and more admirable. Another study found that men have a tendency to lower their voices in order to try to dominate in certain settings. In short, we signal our dominance with lower pitched voices. But interestingly, stress and adrenaline makes your voice go higher. In fact, it turns out that people speak in higher pitched voices when they talk to people of higher status or when they're intimidated. Humans are incredibly good at hearing the stress in other people's voices. We pick up on it immediately. And one way to conceal that stress is to deliberately lower your pitch. And that is something you should know. There is a body part that we don't talk about too much, but we certainly think about it often enough, even.

[Mike Carruthers]

Obsess about it at times.

[Co-host]

It is the human, but people think theirs is too big or too small or how does it look in these jeans or other clothes? Women's butts in particular are forever being assessed and criticized and objectified. So why do we have butts? Why are they such a topic of interest? And why have they been for so long? Well, here to answer these and other questions is Heather Radke.

[Mike Carruthers]

She's author of a book called A Backstory. Hi Heather.

[Co-host]

Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Heather Radke]

Hi. Thanks so much for having me.

[Co-host]

Sure. Without getting too personal here, why is this topic of such interest to you?

[Heather Radke]

I got interested in this topic because I have a big butt. And when I was in high school, I'm a white woman who grew up in the suburbs of Lansing, Michigan, and when I was in high school, that felt like, yeah, not just something we didn't talk about, but something to be a little bit ashamed of. It Felt like kind of the wrong body to have. But then over the last 30 years, that felt like it really started to change. And more and more the kind of body I had became, you know, an ideal of beauty. It's became considered more attractive and more part of the way that we. We think of what a beautiful woman's body might look like.

[Co-host]

But to a lot of people, this, you know, I. I think this isn't really a topic for conversation, or it isn't a serious topic for conversation.

[Heather Radke]

What we talk about in polite conversation was part of what interested me about it because I actually think these things like butts that feel like, oh, we don't talk about that, or that's a little bit too silly to take seriously in those topics. We actually can find quite a lot that's interesting in part because we actually don't take it seriously and we don't think it's polite to talk about.

[Co-host]

So what is a.

[Heather Radke]

But such a good question. It seems like it should be easy to answer, doesn't it? I guess in a sense it is. Buts are basically joints. They are the joint where your hip connects to your leg. It's the. There's a muscle there, the gluteus maximus, and there's actually a couple others that make up the human butt. And only humans have those muscles. And really only humans have butts. Some people will kind of dispute this. This fact when I say it. A lot of people are like, no, like, monkeys have butts, but actually monkeys just have joints. Only humans have the gluteus maximus.

[Co-host]

And why is it that it sort of has, but doesn't quite have the reputation of being, you know, sexual? It's somehow a little bit naughty, but it's not that naughty.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, it's such a good question. Okay, so the butt as an anatomical thing is basically muscles and fat. So women have. Human females have more fat on their butts than males. And it's really not a lot more than that. It's a relatively simple part of our body, but it has come to take on all these different cultural meanings. And those meanings are. Are kind of. I think of it as like. It's almost like it's heaped on top of the. An anatomical truth. And that comes from, you know, centuries of equating butts with sexiness, butts with race. There's just a really long and complex history about all of the kind of cultural symbolism that we put onto the butt.

[Co-host]

So as one of the few people, perhaps the only person who. Who has really looked at the the history of butts. I mean, what. What do you find? What. What's the story?

[Heather Radke]

I do think one of the. The things that I encountered over and over again when I was researching, just colloquially, like when I'd go to a party or whatever, is people often think, like, having a big butt or a small butt means something. So, like, oh, women with big butts, they are more fertile. That's a really commonly held myth about butts. Yeah, lots of people say that to me. Have you ever heard that?

[Co-host]

No.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, that comes out of some evolutionary psychology research from the 90s, but it's really not true. And the science around it feels very flimsy to me, at least as a science reporter. So that's one kind of stereotype people have. I mean, some. Some people think butts are really. Big butts are really gross, and some people think small butts are really ugly. And all these kind, like, over and over again, the meanings we have about butts that you. You realize, they don't come from the actual, you know, factor, the science of the. But it actually comes from different cultural moments. So thin bodies and thin butts kind of come into fashion in the 1920s. And in the 1920s, super thin women's bodies start to become equated with a certain sort of liberation and bohemianism and kind of chicness. And that's essentially a stereotype and a way of thinking about bodies that's really continued well into the 20th century and really has never gone away. So that's sort of a stereotype, in a sense, about small butts. And then I did a bunch of work also about what I would call fit butts. So in the 1980s, as the aerobics revolution starts to happen, there's an aerobics program called Buns of Steel that comes into being. This man named Greg Smith, he invented it. It's wildly popular, and people start to try to actually not just have big butts and small butts, but also strong, steely butts. And that's definitely. You know, it's part of a much bigger trend that's about having fit bodies. But it really speaks to a way we think about our bodies as reflections of our own ability to control ourselves, essentially. So to have a strong butt is to be kind of in control of your body. To be a. To, like, have a bun of steel is to have a butt that's, like, you know, capable of doing hard work. And we even see that in the language we have about butts, like, I'm gonna kick your butt.

[Co-host]

Well, it's interesting that you use the phrase that, you know, butts. Certain types of butts come in and out of fashion, much like clothes come in and out of fashion. But my sense is that if it is one of the most difficult parts of the body to change, even if you wanted to, like how you would, like, get into fashion by changing, it's very difficult to change your butt.

[Heather Radke]

Oh, my goodness, you're absolutely right. It's. I mean, I think it's, like, actually just pretty difficult to change your body. One of the things when I started working on this book really early on was this was a question I have is like, how can a body part come in and out of fashion? I mean, it happens all the time. But what it's really asking of people, and of women in particular, is to radically alter something that's all but unalterable. You know, lots of these days, the main, the most extreme way, and a way that's very popular to alter your butt is to have plastic surgery. But really, it's one of the only ways you can meaningfully change what your butt looks like. You know, you can do what, like what Jane Fonda calls, like rover kicks, you know, like donkey kicks or whatever all day long, and you'll have, like, a slightly bigger butt, but you can't really make an enormous butt out of a small butt. It's just not really possible. So it's one of the reasons why it's actually just so bizarre that fashion asks us this of us is that it's asking something that's kind of not actually humanly possible is to change what your butt looks like. But that's probably also true about breast size or other parts of our body where the demands of fashion to be something actually fundamentally different than what you are. It's just actually, it's part of why it's so emotionally difficult to contend with, and also why so many women end up being really frustrated by the fashion industry is that it's actually asking something that's, like, not easy to do and really, in many cases, not possible to do.

[Co-host]

Well, it seems that butts like other body parts. Often people have the one that they wish they didn't have that people with big butts wish theirs was smaller. People with small butts wish theirs were bigger. And there is that attraction thing. Some people like big butts, some people like small butts. I mean, it's also very subjective, but it's very easy to be dissatisfied with the one you have.

[Heather Radke]

I really like to think about it like the way I one of the scientists I interviewed told he's his name is Chris Hoff. And he said to me that any butt that's not killing you is a good enough but basically, and I think that's a nice way to think about it, probably your butt is attractive to somebody, and that's a great thing. Human variation. It's a wonderful part of what it is to be human. It's part of how we're able to continue to live as a species. And probably there's somebody out there who thinks your butt is great. And to me, that feels like a really exciting part of the research that I found is like, there isn't actually a but that is fundamentally correct.

[Co-host]

We're talking about buts, which seems a.

[Mike Carruthers]

Very odd thing for me to say in this podcast, but that is what we are talking about. And my guest is Heather Radtke. She's author of a book called A Backstory. I really love it when I find a great new podcast, and then, of course, I have to share that with everyone. And one I really want you to listen to is Curiosity Weekly. Curiosity Weekly from Discovery makes sense of some of the biggest questions and ideas shaping our world. It's all about new discoveries happening in science and tech, and they have expert guests that make it all make sense. It's a bit similar to something you should know, which is why I think you'll like it, but it takes a different spin. Listen to Curiosity Weekly and you'll discover things like how neuroscientists are studying TikTok and social media habits to see which chemicals are being released in your brain that make you so obsessed. Or how it is that you can fly from Florida to England on a plane in using recycled plastic jet fuel. And how AI can now read hieroglyphics from Egyptian pyramids. What's so great about Curiosity Weekly is there's so much to learn about science and tech, and these guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of the most interesting stuff. Food science, the science behind social media, the science of algorithms, computer science. And it's all explained in a fascinating way every week on Curiosity Weekly. Listen to Curiosity Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So, Heather, my sense is.

[Co-host]

That there are universally attractive faces.

[Mike Carruthers]

There are just some faces that pretty much everyone can look at and say.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's an attractive face, but you're saying that there really isn't a universally attractive but.

[Heather Radke]

There's no science that I know of that suggests that there's a universally attractive but. And even that science that suggests there's a universally attractive face, I think is something to kind of look a little bit closer at. I think that there's faces that a lot of us find attractive and there's butts that a lot of us find attractive. But part of that is because there's a kind of cultural mechanism that's helping us to find them that way, if that makes any sense. And it's really hard to separate out what is biologically attractive versus what is culturally attractive, because you can never really separate people out from the culture that they live in in order to ask that question. And I think with butts in particular, though, there's so much variation. And also, like, we see what is attractive as far as a butt culturally come, come in and out so much and change so dramatically over the course of 10, 20, 30, 40 years that you really start to see that anything that sort of smacks of universals, you have to really start to question, like, how. How could it be that there's a but that's fundamentally attractive if, like, what we think is attractive in 1995 is really different than in 2015?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I know most of your research.

[Co-host]

Is about women's butts. Is that because that's kind of where the interest is and that there isn't all that much about men's butts or what.

[Heather Radke]

When I very first started this project, I had to really put some limits on it because if I were going to write about all butts, this would have been like, you know, 10 volumes long. But so I didn't do a ton of research on men's butts. But part of the reason I didn't is there's actually quite a lot already written about it. And there's been some great research, especially about, like, butts in the classical time. Like, you can think of, like, classical statuary where the. An ideal of men's beauty was. You know, there was a very clearly a kind of butt that was like a very good kind of men's butt. And a lot of men, as far as I know, wanted to have that kind of butt. And I think that there's still a lot of men who seek out, you know, workout and try to, like, have different kinds of clothes that make their butt look good. Now, I will totally agree with you that I think it's much more common for women to. To try to buy and wear clothes that make their butt look a certain kind of way. And some women want their butts to be bigger and some women want their butts to be smaller. So, yeah, I think it's totally different for men and women, or maybe not totally different, but I think it can be quite different. But I think people across the board do think about their butts.

[Co-host]

But it does seem that there is more attention paid because of clothing and whatever. There's more attention paid to women's butts than men's butts.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, well, I do think so. Butts are like breasts. They are a place where human females, women, they store fat in that part of their body. And one of the questions I had was, you know, why basically, why. Why do women store fat in their butts? And I talked to a few different people about that, and one of the answers might just be because it's physiologically convenient. Like, one scientist told me that, like, you know, it wouldn't be very convenient to store a bunch of fat in, like, your elbows or your knees. You topple over and. But it's definitely true that women have more fat on their bodies than men, and generally they store that fat in their butts, which is not generally the case for men.

[Co-host]

When you say that different types of butts come in and out of fashion, I always kind of figured it was more. Some people like big ones, some people like small ones. They always have, they always will. Not that one is like real in right now and one is out.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, well, I think your understanding is probably more true about how we actually live our lives. But the fashion industry dictates what butts are fashionable, just like they dictate what breast size is fashionable or whether we should wear shoulder pads or any number of other kind of ways that we ought to look. So one of the times we see this most potently actually is in the last 30 years in the early 90s. If you look at, you know, if you look at every issue of every of Vogue in the early 90s, the kind of models you see on the front are going to be people like Kate Moss. You know, that's a very thin body. It's a woman who's, you know, she was, she spoke to a trend at the time called heroin chic. You know, it's like super, super thin, super bony, not a lot of fat. But by 2015, 2014, you know, a lot of magazines were calling 2014 the year of the butt all of a sudden. Well, it's not really all of a sudden, but by that time, the ideal butt, the ideal body was much more curvy. The ideal butt was much bigger. And so, although surely it was true that there, there were lots of people in 2014, just as there were in 1992, who liked big butts and lots of people who liked small butts. What had become part of the mainstream idea of fashion had actually changed.

[Co-host]

How much of this do you think is, at least now is celebrity driven? That if the Kardashians or JLO had little butts, would little butts be more in fashion or. It seems like whoever is the celebrity du jour sets the trend almost.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, I think that's interesting way to put it, I think maybe. But I also think we choose like, it's, it's sort of a snaking its own tail kind of situation, because we also choose the celebrities that fit the moment. You know, people become celebrities at specific times because of other things that are happening in the culture. You know, in 1997, when Jennifer Lopez was in this movie out of Sight, all of the press and after that movie came out, I mean, every, every piece of press I found, the interviewers asked her about her butt. And five years earlier, they would not have done that. They didn't, you know, they weren't talking to like, first of all, there weren't big butted celebrities that were in movies, but also mainstream fashion magazines didn't even really use the word. But they used words like backside and derriere. So something had happened that made butts more culturally interesting between the early 90s and the late 90s. And what a lot of scholars point to is the changing demographics of America. So America was becoming less white, and also hip hop was becoming the dominant form of music. And more and more people were white, non white, were consuming hip hop and were becoming interested in its ideals of beauty, which were very butt based in the 90s. And you see that in songs like Sir Mix, A Lot's Baby Got Back, but also in a number of other hip hop hits in the 90s. You see the way that butts were a part of the hip hop beauty ideal.

[Co-host]

There are butt scholars.

[Heather Radke]

Yeah, there's a lot of. I mean, there's definitely. There's people who study all kinds of stuff. I mean, there's the scientists, but then there's also people who are really interested in these questions of changing body and beauty ideals. And in questions like why did you know what was happening in 1997? And how. And why did people talk about Jennifer Lopez's body in the way that they did? There's people who study, you know, the history of dance. That's that. That is very butt centric. All, all kinds of people study the.

[Co-host]

But what's next for the but, what's. What's on the horizon or anything or who knows or what?

[Heather Radke]

I mean, to some extent, who knows? Right now there's a. We're in a funny moment where there's in like just really. In the last month or two months, there's been a number of articles that are predicting the end of the big butt trend. To the extent that it is a trend. You know, there's basically like thin as in is a very common type of headline that you'll find right now. And I'm not surprised because that's just basically in some sense how fashion works, is that if a thing is big, if a body part becomes trendy for being big, it's almost inevitable that you'll need the opposite of that in order to continue sort of the machine of fashion churning. Um, so that's one thing, but then there's also a thing which is like to some extent, thin has never been out. Although big butts have been fashionable over the last 15 years. They've always really been on the bodies of very thin women. And they've been very kind of controlled butts. You know, butts that are. Look a certain way on a certain kind of person. It's not like all big butts are something that people and fashion have been excited about over the last 15 years. So, you know, we will see. Time will tell if the big butt is, you know, going out of fashion, so to speak. But I wouldn't be surprised if that was the next the next thing for the butt.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, who, who knew there was so.

[Co-host]

Much research about the human butt. And it's interesting to hear about it because, I mean, frankly, we see butts everywhere every day. And it's interesting to hear what science.

[Mike Carruthers]

Says about butts, what they are and.

[Co-host]

Why we find them so fascinating.

[Mike Carruthers]

I've been speaking with Heather Radke. She's author of a book called A.

[Co-host]

Backstory, and you can find a link.

[Mike Carruthers]

To that book in the show notes. Thanks, Heather.

[Co-host]

Thanks for explaining all this about butts.

[Heather Radke]

Oh, sure. Thanks Mike. It's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you taking the time.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Apologies. I'm sure you've made some and received some in your life, so you have likely experienced that a good apology can.

[Co-host]

Go a long way to fix a.

[Mike Carruthers]

Relationship or heal a misunderstanding. And a bad apology can go a long way to making things a whole lot worse. Apologies are important. They can represent a pivotal point in a relationship from which things improve or worsen. So what makes a good apology and what makes a bad one? Here to discuss this is Marjorie Engel. She's author of a book called Sorry, Sorry the Case for Good Apologies. Hey Marjorie. Welcome.

[Marjorie Engel]

Thanks so much for having me, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, on the surface, you would think, what could be simpler? You do something wrong, you say you're sorry, life goes on. But as we have all experienced, it.

[Co-host]

Somehow isn't quite so easy.

[Marjorie Engel]

The steps for Making a good apology are so easy and yet actually doing them is so hard because our brains are not wired for this. Apologizing is a really brave act that really builds bridges between people when they're done right. But when they're done wrong, which is everything our brain is telling us to do, we are absolutely shimmering and shivering with this desire to apologize badly or not at all and to blame the other person and to throw up defensive walls. It's so hard because we want to see ourselves as the hero in our own story. And apologizing well means understanding that you were the bad guy in somebody else's story.

[Co-host]

So what is the anatomy of a good apology?

[Marjorie Engel]

A good apology really is six easy steps, maybe six and a half. The first one is say I'm sorry or I apologize, which sounds so fundamental. And yet somebody is always going to say I regret or not using that word at all. And regret is about how you feel. Apologies are making the other person feel heard. You have to say the thing that you did. Don't say the situation or that incident or what happened. Name the thing, which is again, our brains are so wired to just steer us away from looking at what we did. Show that you understand the impact. Show that you understand why the other person was hurt. If you need to explain, do so. But be really wary of excuses. I honestly think this is the hardest step. Number five is if you can explain the steps that you are taking to make sure that this never happens again, that you don't do it, that somebody else doesn't do it. Whatever power you have to prevent it happening again, do it. Number six is if you can make reparations, make reparations. And the half step is sort of listening. People really want to be heard.

[Co-host]

So you said a couple of times that our brains are not wired to do this. Explain what that. What do you mean? What is it wired to do and why is it wired that way?

[Marjorie Engel]

The way we function is by seeing ourselves as the protagonist in the novel that is our life. We see ourselves as a good person doing good, putting out good into the world. We tend to remember the slights that other people have made against us, but not the ones that we make against other people. And that's so we don't wind up curled in a corner sobbing with guilt and self recrimination and self consciousness. You have to see yourself as good. We all see ourselves as good. And apologizing well means putting yourself in a one down position.

[Co-host]

I guess people like to think that they're right and as you say, in their own story, they're the hero. But we all know people make mistakes, people do things wrong, people say stupid things. Just not us. I don't.

[Marjorie Engel]

Right. Exactly. One of those phrases you never want to hear in an apology and hear far too often is, I'm not perfect. Well, nobody's perfect. But it seems particularly difficult to admit to an actual incidence of imperfection while you're apologizing.

[Co-host]

What do we know about what a good apology does on the other side of the table?

[Marjorie Engel]

I think there's a reason why we crave good apology stories in the media, in the news. You know, good apologies are so often a feature of, you know, good things that happen today. Happy stories in magazines and newspapers. They make us feel that the world is a warm place where humans look out for each other, that the world is a small town, and we'd all like to think that we could be a character in this story. The most recent thing that I saw that went viral was a drunk guy stole a Santa from a small town in North Carolina, and he returned it the next day with flowers for the owner. And he said, I just saw it and thought it looked cool, and I took it, and I feel really bad about it, and I'm sorry. And is there anything I can do to help you out around your restaurant? And it was just so sweet that, you know, it's such a small story, but it went viral.

[Co-host]

Well, but it's interesting that we all appreciate a good apology. When we see someone apologize like your guy that stole the Santa there, we think, well, isn't that touching that he stole the Santa and brought it back and said all those nice things. If we see that working, it makes you wonder why we're so reluctant to do it ourselves when clearly it's a pretty effective strategy to get people on your side.

[Marjorie Engel]

Right. The rules are always different when it comes to us. Right. We didn't do anything wrong. We are more sinned against than sinning. And, you know, it's always funny to me when somebody in the media in particular gives this horrible apology, like that sun columnist Jeremy Clarkson, who compared Meghan Markle to a serial killer in British history, and then to, like, some villain on Game of Thrones and said she should be made to parade naked through the streets of every town in England while people threw lumps of excrement at her. And then his apology was like, oh, dear, I've put my foot in it. I made a clumsy little joke about Game of Thrones, and it went down badly. And I'm horrified to have caused so much hurt. I'll be more careful in future. And I read it. You know, people send us these terrible apologies on our website, SorryWatch, and it didn't occur to me until after I'd even tweeted about it that it wasn't an apology at all, that it didn't say sorry or apologize. And it's what we call an apology shaped object. It takes the form of an apology, but it is not one. And that just makes people angrier. But when it's us on the chopping block. No, it was. People didn't get my joke.

[Mike Carruthers]

It seems to me that, well, that there are times when people demand apologies.

[Co-host]

Or expect apologies, when maybe just get over it. I mean, people are very sensitive in my view.

[Mike Carruthers]

People get very offended and want to be apologized to when there was no intent to hurt anybody. It's just a different view of the world.

[Co-host]

And maybe we don't need to be.

[Mike Carruthers]

So sensitive and demand apologies for being offended.

[Marjorie Engel]

I'm going to gently push back here that it depends on the offense. Right. Okay. So the most recent thing that I did was misgender someone, use the wrong pronouns. And, you know, I was hitting someone where they live. And so I think it's appropriate for me to apologize for that. It's also appropriate for me to keep it short and sweet and not turn this into a whole all about me, oh, rending my garments, ripping out my hair. I feel terrible. Please, please forgive me that I, you know, called you he when you are she. But don't people deserve to be called what they want to be called?

[Co-host]

To me, that's not something to apologize for if somebody's offended. But it was an honest mistake. If somebody looks like your impression of what a man looks like, and you call someone a man and it turns out they're not, well, that's not your fault. I mean, it's just no intent was there to cause harm.

[Marjorie Engel]

Right. But if you've been told and you still get it wrong, which is what I did, I think. I think if. If you still. If you keep screwing up, you owe someone an apology, but you also don't owe either you or them this theatrical, you know, oh, my God, I suck so bad.

[Co-host]

Well, what about that idea of don't apologize if you're not sorry? You know, sometimes people apologize just to prevent the conflict. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry I did that. Now let's move on. And they're not really sorry. They just don't want to get bogged down in that.

[Marjorie Engel]

And that Seems to be okay on apology. Don't do it. Resist the call. But talk to someone you trust to say, am I reading this wrong? Because again, we are wired to be self protective and your friend may have a better take on the situation than you and your friend may be able to show you. Oh, you know, you really did offend and here's what you can say. One thing I always taught my kids was if there's a thing that you're sorry for, apologize for that. Don't apologize for what you're not sorry for.

[Mike Carruthers]

Let's talk about bad apologies. To me, a bad apology often starts with I'm sorry, but. Or I'm sorry if, yeah, I'm sorry.

[Marjorie Engel]

If you were hurt. I forgot that you really don't have a sense of humor. I wasn't aware that you were so fragile. Yeah, like, we joke that, like, if the word obviously appears in the apology, you're already going to be mad when you hear about, obviously, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, or, you know, I've already apologized. But okay, it's unfortunate that, like, these are all words that make you go, but when somebody actually makes eye contact with you and says, I'm trying to understand how I screwed up here, I know you're mad. Can we talk about it? What can I do to make amends here? I think when it's unfiltered that way and you're actually looking into another human being's eyes, an apology can be such a bridge building, societally connecting, beautiful thing. And I think given how hard it is to do well, we should be applauding these when we see them.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what do you suggest people say.

[Co-host]

When they get one of these crappy apologies?

[Mike Carruthers]

Someone comes to them and says, you know, I'm sorry, bud, or I'm sorry if. Or what's the response?

[Marjorie Engel]

And okay, so say they. They do a sorry. If you can call them on it. Just say, wait, you just said sorry if. Do you mean sorry if? You know, don't say sorry. If you hurt me, you're apologizing. You know, you hurt me. And almost all of the time, if they are coming to you in good faith, they're like, you're right, we have to come to each other in good faith.

[Co-host]

Let's talk about accepting an apology. Because not everybody's particularly gracious at that. So let's talk about that.

[Marjorie Engel]

We like to say apologies are mandatory. Forgiveness is not. If you're getting the crappy apology that is clearly not sincere and just intended to smooth the way or, you know, fine, you know, come home for Christmas. I, I'm sorry I did, blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, clearly the office manager is making you apologize. You don't have to accept those. You know, you can be. You can just say, thanks and I appreciate you saying that, and move on. But if someone says to you, I want us to really connect, that's what an apology is, right? It's connection. It behooves us to listen, and we can help guide the person. Sometimes people don't know what they did. Instead of being mad that the person doesn't know what they did, help them see what they did. What use does it serve for both of you if they don't understand why you're mad and you can't articulate or won't articulate while you're mad.

[Mike Carruthers]

I bet everyone listening has one of those people in their lives that does that thing where they just say things because they want to be honest. Like, you know, those shoes look terrible, or, you know, I really liked your hair the old way.

[Co-host]

Or, you know, and they.

[Mike Carruthers]

And they say it because they think it needs to be said. They say it because they think they're telling you the truth.

[Co-host]

And you wonder, is it worth demanding.

[Mike Carruthers]

An apology because they hurt your feelings? Or do we all have to put up with those people? I mean, they say things that are hurtful.

[Marjorie Engel]

If it's, you know, you need to lose weight, the person is aware of their weight. If it's your sister gets as, why can't you get as? All of these things are true, maybe, but not helpful. You know, there used to be a sign in my kid's kindergarten that said, is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? And those are all. I mean, it's stupid, but it's true. If someone is really hurt, what's more important, being right or being happy being right or salvaging this relationship?

[Co-host]

Yeah, well, that's a question some people have trouble answering because sometimes they really want to be right.

[Marjorie Engel]

Yes. Yeah, I married one and I love him. And unfortunately, he usually is right, which is very difficult for me personally. But, yeah, sorry is hard when you are often the person who is right.

[Co-host]

It is such an interesting topic because we're all at times on one side of the table or the other in this. We've either done something that we wish we hadn't and now need to apologize, or we're the ones who are waiting for the apology. And we've all been on both sides of the table so we know what it's like for the other person. And yet.

[Marjorie Engel]

Yes. And there's some really well designed and amusing studies that look at, let me think about times I've wronged other people versus times I've been wronged. And A, we're way better at coming up with more times that we have been wronged than when we have wronged others. And there are always extenuating circumstances for some reason when we are the people who did the bad thing and we were somehow always, you know, there was a reason we did what we did and the other person, A, they do it all the time and B, it's completely unmotivated. Why did they do that? Which is again, we are marvelously complex, intricate mechanisms as human beings designed to not see our own culpability. And there's so many studies that back that up.

[Mike Carruthers]

I want to talk about time because I imagine everybody has done something in their past that in retrospect they regret. They didn't necessarily apologize for it at the time.

[Co-host]

But with age and wisdom you start.

[Mike Carruthers]

To think, well, maybe that wasn't so cool. Is it worth going back and apologizing? Because in retrospect it seems like it would be.

[Marjorie Engel]

Nothing wrong with in retrospect. You know, like retrospect can be really. Those rose colored backwards glasses can be super duper helpful. You know, in the moment, things get heated in the moment. You know, all we're thinking about is being self protective. And retrospect can be a great way to look at things and reevaluate and change your story.

[Mike Carruthers]

In the research that you did, was.

[Co-host]

There any like one thing, one sparkling.

[Mike Carruthers]

Diamond y thing that if you have a big apology to make, would make it really special, would make it really succeed.

[Marjorie Engel]

There was a study that people liked talking about that showed the impact of a thank you note that we don't. We completely underestimate how happy people are to get a thank you note that we think, oh, you know, I'm not a good writer, oh, they already know I'm grateful. Oh, they're going to think I'm sucking up. But when somebody opens that thank you note, they are thrilled. And I think that although I haven't seen a study showing this, I think apologies are similar. I can recall some of the great apologies I have received. You know, I had an ex, maybe 10 years after we broke up, send me a note out of the blue saying that he was getting married and he just wanted me to know that even though sometimes he didn't seem like he was listening when we were together, he was. And he thinks that you Know, he thought that he was going to be a better husband because of the time that we had spent together. And there was no return address. And I actually loved that because it showed that there was no ulterior motive. It was just the nicest thing, and I'm gonna carry that for the rest of my life.

[Co-host]

So you're saying an apology in writing may have even more force than an apology in writing.

[Marjorie Engel]

When you. That it's not calculating, you know, that there's no ulterior motive to it. It was just a kind act. And it also, it made me reflect back on a bad breakup in a way that made me think more warmly about the whole relationship.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah.

[Marjorie Engel]

If you can apologize to someone and you. You suspect that it's something that they want to hear, that they would be happy to hear, you may underestimate how happy it will make them. And if you think that they might not want to hear from you if you do it. You know, you never want somebody to feel cornered by an apology. If somebody. If you're apologizing to someone face to face and they're backing away from you, sometimes people move forward because they really want you to understand. No, but if you write someone a letter. Oh, especially on nice, creamy stationery with a pen, people are so happy.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, for anyone who has struggled making an apology or. Or accepting an apology, for that matter, I think this has been really interesting and important to hear. I've been speaking with Marjorie Engall. She is co author of the book Sorry, Sorry, the Case for Good Apologies, and you'll find a link to that book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Marjorie. Appreciate it.

[Marjorie Engel]

Thank you so much, Mike. This was wonderful.

[Mike Carruthers]

I think most of us would agree that 20% is the standard amount you would leave as a tip at a restaurant. The question is, should you calculate that 20% before or after the tax? Well, Steve Dublonica, who's a former waiter and author of a book called Keep the Change, says after the tax is best because most servers total their sales at the end of the night and include the tax in that amount. The cash out amount is what determines how much they tip to busboys, runners, and other staff members. If you're a stickler and prefer to tip pre tax, that's okay. Servers understand that tax could be pretty significant on a big restaurant check, but.

[Co-host]

You might want to at least round up a little.

[Mike Carruthers]

Steve also has some advice. If you're tempted to leave a bad tip, even if your server really, really screwed things up, keep in mind that the tip money is being distributed to multiple people, so it's not really fair to penalize the other employees who did their part. You should try telling the manager that you had poor service because most restaurant.

[Co-host]

Managers want to know if you're unhappy.

[Mike Carruthers]

And that is something you should know. It would be great. It's not required, but it would certainly be appreciated if you would leave a review of this podcast. Most podcast platforms allow you to leave ratings and reviews and one from you would be most appreciated. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

Hi, I'm Sarah Gabrielli and I've traveled to every single lesbian bar in the country for my podcast. Cruising.

[Marjorie Engel]

Dancing was a no, no, no. Women dancing. That would be something that, yes, the cops would grab you for. There were no black owned female gay bars. We needed a place to follow on in those days. We went to the bars to socialize because there was no other way. When you went to Brady's Bar, you knew you were safe.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

This is Cruising, a documentary podcast about queer spaces, history and culture. Each episode of Cruising features a different space and tells the stories of the humans that run it and the humans that call it home. You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcast, Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season one and two are available now, so be sure to binge them before season three, which will go beyond the bars to queer bookstores, farms, peace encampments and more. Premiering February 4th.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Hi, I'm Laura Cathcart Robbins and I am the host and creator of the podcast Only One in the Room. Every week, my co host Scott Slaughter and I invite you to join us and lose yourself in someone's incredible Only One Story. We talk to real people dealing with issues like infertility, the death of a loved one, human trafficking, and women who fake it. Oh, and we want to be fair, so we talk to celebrities too. Emmy winners like actor Jon Cryer, supermodels like Amber Valletta, and rock stars like Ryan Dusick. Everyone is invited to share their only one story with our listeners. With 21 seasons and counting, we guarantee you that only one in the room has a story that you'll connect with. This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. Which is to say that this podcast is for everyone. Download Only One in the Room on Apple or Spotify today.