Why We Have Tip-of-the-Tongue Moments & How to Make Better Conversation

Summary

Something You Should Know: Episode Summary

Episode Title: Why We Have Tip-of-the-Tongue Moments & How to Make Better Conversation
Release Date: July 28, 2025
Host: Mike Carruthers
Guest Experts: Anne Cleary (Professor of Psychology, Colorado State University) and Jefferson Fisher (Attorney and Author)

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1. The Health Benefits of Eating Nuts

Key Insights:

Mike Carruthers opens the episode by highlighting surprising research on the health benefits of nut consumption. Drawing from a long-term study that began in 1986 involving over 120,000 Dutch participants, he discusses how regular nut intake correlates with reduced mortality rates from major diseases.

Notable Findings:

• Optimal Consumption: Eating 15 grams of nuts daily (approximately half a handful) was identified as the optimal amount for lowering mortality risk. Consuming more than this did not provide additional benefits.
• Health Impact: Regular nut consumption significantly reduced the risk of death from respiratory diseases, neurodegenerative diseases, diabetes, cancer, and cardiovascular diseases. Both peanuts and tree nuts were equally beneficial.
• Exclusions: It's important to note that while whole nuts and peanuts contribute to these health benefits, peanut butter does not.

Quote:

"Men and women who eat at least 10 grams of nuts per day have a lower risk of dying from several major causes of death than people who don't consume nuts." – Mike Carruthers [01:01]

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2. Understanding Tip-of-the-Tongue Moments

Introduction to Tip-of-the-Tongue (TOT) Phenomenon:

Mike transitions into exploring the intriguing cognitive experience known as the tip-of-the-tongue (TOT) moment, where an individual feels on the verge of recalling a word or name but cannot retrieve it immediately.

Interview with Anne Cleary:

Prevalence and Nature:

Anne Cleary emphasizes that TOT moments are universal, with virtually everyone experiencing them. She explains that TOT states are distinct from simple memory lapses; they carry a subjective feeling of imminent recall.

Research Insights:

• Common Triggers: Low-frequency words and proper names are the most common triggers for TOT states. High-frequency words rarely cause such moments.
• Age and TOT: Individuals often report more frequent TOT states as they age, though research is ongoing to determine if this is due to actual increases or heightened self-awareness.
• Context Reinstatement: Returning to the original context where a memory was formed (e.g., revisiting a high school to recall a principal's name) can aid in overcoming TOT states through encoding specificity.

Cues and Resolution:

Anne discusses how appropriate cues can facilitate the resolution of TOT moments. Her research indicates that recognizing the correct answer from multiple choice options is more likely when individuals are in a TOT state, underscoring the metacognitive awareness involved.

Notable Quotes:

"There is a fundamental distinction between simply failing to retrieve a word and feeling like it's right there on the tip of your tongue about to come to mind at any moment." – Anne Cleary [00:46]

"It's a feeling that you're really close or right on the verge of accessing this word that just won't come to you at this moment." – Anne Cleary [05:15]

"If you change your context, you're more likely to then attain the solution to the problem, presumably because the wrong solution was attached to this previous context." – Anne Cleary [11:34]

Practical Applications:

Anne shares insights from her ongoing research, including methods to mitigate TOT states by altering one's environment or taking breaks, allowing the brain to "incubate" and resolve the retrieval block naturally.

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3. Effective Communication Strategies

Identifying Common Communication Pitfalls:

Mike introduces the second expert segment featuring Jefferson Fisher, who delves into common miscommunications and offers strategies to enhance conversational effectiveness.

Interview with Jefferson Fisher:

Core Issues in Communication:

• Assumption Errors: People often assume that their intended message is exactly what the other person received, leading to misunderstandings.

  Quote:

  "Biggest thing that I see people doing wrong in communication is they think that just because they said it, that's exactly how the other person heard it." – Jefferson Fisher [32:55]

• Extreme Language: Using absolutes like "always" and "never" can derail conversations and exacerbate conflicts.

Strategies for Improvement:

1. Clarify Understanding:

   • Instead of countering disagreements with "That's not what I said," ask "What did you hear?" to understand the other person's interpretation.

2. Use Perspective-Ignoring Language:

   • Replace confrontational statements with phrases like "I see things differently" to reduce defensiveness and foster open dialogue.

   Quote:

   "If you set out to win an argument, you'll lose the relationship because nobody wants to be around the person who always has to be right." – Jefferson Fisher [37:00]

3. Emotional Regulation:

   • Control physical responses (e.g., breathing) to maintain calmness during heated discussions.
   • Breathing Technique: "Let your breath be the first word that you say," signaling non-threat and promoting relaxation.

4. Priming the Conversation:

   • Establish ground rules at the outset to ensure both parties communicate respectfully and transparently.

   Quote:

   "I'm telling you what your boundary is. I'm giving you the condition and the consequence." – Jefferson Fisher [44:49]

5. Framework for Difficult Conversations:

   • Be Direct: Clearly state the topic and desired outcome from the beginning to avoid confusion and unnecessary small talk.

   Example Provided:

   "Mike, I need to have a conversation about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. I want to walk away from this conversation with the understanding that's not going to happen again. Sound good?" [47:55]

Handling Dominant Personalities:

Jefferson advises on setting boundaries and being willing to walk away from conversations that become disrespectful or domineering, thereby preventing the reinforcement of negative power dynamics.

Practical Takeaways:

• Active Listening: Focus on truly understanding the other person's perspective rather than preparing to counter their arguments.
• Metacognitive Awareness: Recognize when you're in a TOT state or a communication deadlock and apply strategies to navigate these moments effectively.

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4. Practical Tips and Takeaways

Overcoming TOT Moments:

• Change Environment: Altering your physical or mental context can help retrieve elusive words.
• Use Cues: Leveraging multiple choice prompts can increase the likelihood of recognizing the correct term.

Enhancing Communication:

• Set Clear Boundaries: Define and communicate your limits respectfully to prevent misunderstandings.
• Stay Calm: Employ breathing techniques to regulate emotions during stressful conversations.
• Be Direct and Clear: Initiate conversations with clear intentions and desired outcomes to avoid unnecessary friction.

Final Thoughts:

Mike Carruthers wraps up the episode by emphasizing the importance of understanding cognitive phenomena like TOT moments and mastering effective communication to enhance personal and professional relationships.

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Further Resources:

• Anne Cleary's Book: Tip of the Tongue States, Retrieval, Metacognition, and Experience [Link in Show Notes]
• Jefferson Fisher's Book: The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More [Link in Show Notes]

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Anne Cleary]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Mike Carruthers]

And breathe.

[Anne Cleary]

Oh sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh sorry. Namaste.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order.

[Narrator]

1-800-Contacts today on something you should know the excellent reason why you might want to eat more nuts then the strange phenomenon of having a word that's right on the tip of your tongue but you just can't retrieve it.

[Anne Cleary]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that there is a fundamental distinction between simply failing to retrieve a word and feeling like it's right there on the tip of your tongue about to come to mind at any moment.

[Narrator]

Also, a better way to water your lawn that will save you time and money and some of the biggest mistakes we make in conversation and how to fix them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Biggest thing that I see people doing wrong in communication is they think that just because they said it, that's exactly how the other person heard it. It's the only way they could ever receive it. And that is a recipe for disaster.

[Narrator]

All this today on Something you should know.

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[Narrator]

Something you should know Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should Know with Mike Carruthers. You know, I've always thought that eating nuts must be good for you. Human beings have been eating nuts forever, but it turns out eating nuts is healthier and can help you live longer than I even imagined. Hi and welcome to another episode of Something youg Should Know. The fact is that men and women who eat at least 10 grams of nuts per day have a lower risk of dying from several major causes of death than people who don't consume nuts. The reduction in mortality was strongest for respiratory disease, neurodegenerative diseases and diabetes, followed by cancer and cardiovascular diseases the effects are equal in men and women. Peanuts, which technically are not nuts, show at least as strong reductions in mortality as tree nuts. So you can include them in the mix. There are a couple of interesting things about this study, which has been running since 1986. Over 120,000 Dutch men and women, the optimum amount of nuts was 15 grams per day. That's about a half a handful. Eating more than that did not reduce your mortality risk. And peanut butter doesn't count. The benefits only came from eating actual nuts and peanuts. No reduction in mortality came from eating peanut butter. And that is something you should know. How many times has this happened to you? You know you know something. Usually it's a word. You know you know it, but you just can't pull it out of your brain and say it. It's what's called a tip of the tongue moment. In fact, that's what people often say, oh, it's right on the tip of my tongue. Why does that happen? It's different than knowing that you don't know something or don't remember something and you just don't remember it. This is when you know you know it, but you can't recall it. And it turns out people study this and what they've learned about it is really interesting. One of those people who studies this is Anne Cleary. She's a professor of psychology at Colorado State University, and her research examines odd memory phenomenon like deja vu and tip of the tongue moments. She's author of a book called Tip of the Tongue States, Retrieval, Metacognition, and Experience. Hi, Anne. Welcome.

[Anne Cleary]

Hi. Thanks. Thanks so much for having me.

[Narrator]

So I'm assuming, and I probably shouldn't assume, but I'm assuming that everybody has those tip of the tongue moments.

[Anne Cleary]

I don't think I've met anybody who has told me they have not had this experience. So I think it's a pretty common experience that just about everybody has.

[Narrator]

And what is it? What is it that you know you know something but you can't seem to know it?

[Anne Cleary]

Well, that's the million dollar question. There are a lot of theories about what gives rise to it, but essentially it's a feeling. Basically a feeling that you're really close or right on the verge of accessing this word that just won't come to you at this moment.

[Narrator]

Is it always a word?

[Anne Cleary]

Well, that's a good question. So there are a lot of similar experiences. For example, there's the French term presquez vous for feeling right on the verge of a discovery. Or an epiphany. And that can be seeming to feeling on the verge of retrieving a word. And it's a really good question, are these other seemingly similar experiences the same or do they result from different mechanisms? That's something that researchers are actually trying to to disentangle.

[Narrator]

Well, I guess you would include in the definition of a word would be somebody's name or that's a word, right?

[Anne Cleary]

Oh yes. And as it turns out, proper names are the most common elicitors of tip of the tongue states.

[Narrator]

Well, I find it interesting that it is such a universal experience, but it's kind of a quirky experience. And I didn't realize that people actually research this.

[Anne Cleary]

So it's an entire field of its own. In fact, that researching the tip of the tongue state, it gets abbreviated tot or tot for tip of the tongue state.

[Narrator]

So since there's research on this, then there probably would be some answers to these questions of first of all, does it tend to happen at similar situations, times of the day, certain kinds of things you're trying to recall, certain kind of words. What, if anything, do these tip of the tongue states have in common?

[Anne Cleary]

So they tend to occur most commonly for very low frequency words that are harder to retrieve. So a high frequency word like money is very unlikely to elicit a tip of the tongue state for most people. But a very infrequent word, maybe something like aardvark, might be more likely to elicit a tip of the tongue state because it's, it's a harder word to retrieve. And along those same lines, proper names are very common elicitors of tip of the tongue states. So people's names in particular often elicit tip of the tongue states. In fact, a common method of studying tip of the tongue states involves showing people famous faces and having them them try to produce the names for each of the faces. And in type of method, you can often elicit many tip of the tongue states in people in research.

[Narrator]

Anything else that they have in common, Is it more men than women? Does it happen more in the morning than the night? I mean, anything else that.

[Anne Cleary]

It definitely varies with age. So as people grow older, they'll tell you that they subjectively feel like they're having more and more of these tip of the tongue states. And there are whole lines of research centered on aging and tip of the tongue tongue states. But one thing you have to keep in mind is that there is a fundamental distinction between simply failing to retrieve a word and feeling like it's right there on the tip of your tongue about to come to mind at any moment. And so this has been a challenge for the literature, including with regard to this, this general finding that tip of the tongue states increase in their frequency as people grow older. I think it's important to distinguish between is it just getting harder to retrieve words as people get older, or is it really the case that this subjective feeling of being right there on the verge of retrieving a word is increasing as people age?

[Narrator]

Well, if you think about it, and not being a researcher, this is kind of how I would think about it or how I do think about it, is that the word is traveling the highway of wherever it travels to get to your mouth to say, and something holds it up. Somewhere along the highway, something held it up. Is that roughly what's happening?

[Anne Cleary]

That is a really great analogy to a dominant theory of tip of the tongue states known as the transmission deficit model. So in the transmission deficit model, it's along the lines of what you just described that there's a disruption along the highway of getting from one place to another in the networks of various components of word representations in our minds that causes a sort of a halt or a holdup in getting there to your mouth. That's exactly what the transmission deficit model posits. Now, again, I think there are other theories of tip of the tongue states. And one argument is that there's a fundamental distinction between simply failing to retrieve a word, having a hold up along that highway, so to speak, and feeling like it's right there, as if it's right they're about to be retrieved. So there's this fundamental difference between failing to retrieve a word and having the subjective sensation that you're about to retrieve it. And it may be that the transmission deficit model is a great model of why we fail to retrieve words sometimes. But is it really telling us why does it feel like it's so close? What leads to that subjective sensation that it's almost there, just it's almost gonna come to us?

[Narrator]

So I've always found it interesting that, and I think it's related maybe to this is, for example, let's just say you're trying to remember the name of your high school principal and it's right, like, I can see his face, it's right on the tip of my tongue. And you can't. But if you could magically transport yourself instantly back into your high school, that name would come to you instantly because you would have all these cues from high school that would bring his name right to the tip of your tongue?

[Anne Cleary]

That is true, yes. So a key aspect to accessing a memory is having the right cues. And so I think you're exactly right that if you could transport yourself back to that original context, you would increase the likelihood that you would be able to retrieve this name by virtue of those cues. In fact, one of my graduate students right now is exploring this idea as a means of helping people to overcome tip of the tongue states. So if people experience a tip of the tongue state in a particular context, can you reinstate an original context, for example, or put them in a different context? And does changing the context that they find themselves in change the likelihood of accessing the word and, as we say, resolving the tip of the tongue state?

[Narrator]

Well, and the reason I bring that example up is because it works kind of in a similar but different way in that if you were to walk into your high school, you would start remembering things without. You wouldn't even be able to control it, because I wasn't when this happened to me. You would start remembering things that have happened. People's names, people that you haven't thought about forever just by walking into your high school.

[Anne Cleary]

Yes, yes. There's a term for that in memory research too, known as encoding specificity. That when you reinstate the original context in which you experienced something, that context reinstatement serves as a powerful set of cues that will cause you to conjure up memories that took place in that original context. And so that's a very powerful way to get hold of memories, even if they happen a long time ago, is to reinstate the original context in which those memories occurred.

[Narrator]

We're talking about those times when it's right on the tip of your tongue. My guest is Anne Cleary. She's author of the book Tip of the Tongue States, Retrieval, Metacognition, and Experience. You know, it's interesting, if you own or run a business, you're just sort of expected to know how to hire people. Well, sorry, I've been in that position. Maybe you have too. Hiring is a lot harder than it looks. And the results are are too high stakes. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. With indeed, you don't have to struggle to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out so you can hire fast. With sponsored jobs, your post jumps right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you reach the right people faster. Look, if you feel real confident, like you can hire someone all on your own and nail it, great. But it's so much better to have INDEED guide you through the process. With Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long term contracts. You just pay for results. Millions of businesses use Indeed. In fact, in the minute I've been Talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed According to Indeed Data worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com something just go to Indeed.com something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com something terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Have you ever had that experience? Well, everyone's had this experience. You buy some clothes online, they get delivered, you open it up and then there's that wave of disappointment. The quality's poor or it doesn't fit, or the fabric's not what you thought. It's such a letdown. Well, that has never happened. When I or my wife order clothes from Quints, Quince has the kind of stuff you'll actually wear on repeat, like breathable flow knit polos, crisp cotton shirts, and comfortable, lightweight pants that somehow work for every occasion. And the best part, everything with Quints is half the cost of similar brands. You see, by working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quint's gives you luxury clothes without the markups. Now, since I started buying clothes from Quince, I really I haven't bought clothes from anywhere else. And each time the clothes arrive, I'm always delighted and never disappointed. And you know something weird? When I tell people about how great Quince is and how I love buying clothes from them, I often hear back, oh, Quince. Yeah, I shop there. I love them. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.comsysk for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quincysk to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsysk so Ann, I've heard that if you're having one of those moments where it's right on the tip of your tongue, the best advice is to stop trying so hard, walk away from it, and it's more likely to come back faster. Is that true?

[Anne Cleary]

You know, I can't think of a study that's actually examined that specific method, but there may be some validity to that idea insofar as it's kind of similar to the idea an idea that we're exploring in my lab right now, which is that it could be kind of the opposite of what you just noted about reinstating an original context, serving as a powerful set of cues. If you're failing to access the word because for whatever reason the current context is causing you to think of the wrong words and they're kind of getting in the way of you accessing the right words, well, then maybe there's a benefit to changing your context, right? Working into another room or going and walking outside instead of staying in the context that you're at that may free your mind from the grip of the wrong representation. An analogous finding has been shown in the creative problem solving literature, where researchers have found that when people attach, they can't think of a solution to the problem, or they get incorrect cues on purpose by the researchers to kind of trip them up and make it harder for them to retrieve the solution to a problem. If they change their context, they're more likely to then attain the solution to the problem, presumably because the wrong solution was attached to this previous context. And so we think in my lab that something similar may happen with tip of the tongue states. But we, we're in the process of investigating this now. It hasn't yet been investigated, but it goes along with the idea that you just mentioned that maybe if you stop trying, right, you're giving your mind a break. In the problem solving literature, people would call that incubation. You're kind of letting it incubate. You've stopped intentionally working on the problem, you're going to give it a break. And often giving it a break does facilitate coming up with a solution to a problem. So in an analogous way, there may be something to that idea with regard to tip of the tongue states, if you just give it a break and the right word will then come to mind. Though that hasn't really been directly investigated yet.

[Narrator]

Well, it must be hard to investigate this because tip of the tongue states don't happen predictably. They happen whenever they happen and then they're gone. So it's hard to catch somebody having one. But I would love to see an experiment, although there's no way to do it, to put somebody in a hot shower when they're in a tip of the tongue state and see if that word doesn't pop right out.

[Anne Cleary]

Actually, there are ways to study it. And so it's interesting that you mention that the most common method of studying tip of the tongue states is to give people a set of trivia questions, basically like what Is the name of the inability to sleep? Or what is the name of the famous guy's in Yellowstone National Park? And so you have a large set. They may be over a hundred of these types of trivia questions. And for just about every person, a fraction of them. You can't ever predict for any person which exact items are going to elicit the tip of the tongue state, but a fraction of them will. And that is how researchers typically go about studying tip of the tongue state. Other pointers can be pictures of celebrity faces. That's another very common type of pointer stimulus.

[Narrator]

So if you showed me a picture of a celebrity, maybe a minor celebrity or a celebrity from a while back, that hasn't been in the public eye a lot lately, but somebody whose face I recognize, I might say, yeah, I know who that is, it's right on the tip of my tongue. But I can't recall it. But if you gave me a list of 20 names, I'd be able to pick that person's name out once I saw it.

[Anne Cleary]

Yeah, it's so interesting that you mentioned that, because that's exactly what researchers tend to find. So in this pointer methodology that I mentioned, the way that you could examine that in a research study is to give a person, say, the pointer stimulus, whether it's a picture of a celebrity or a trivia question, and see if they have a tip of the tongue state. And then for those questions or celebrity images for which a tip of the tongue state was indicated, what you can do is present a list of multiple choice options afterward and say, can you identify what the correct answer is? And when you do that, what you find is that if you compare those pointers for which people indicated experiencing a tip of the tongue state with those pointers for which people indicated that they were not experiencing a tip of the tongue state, you'll find that people show a higher probability of choosing the correct answer out of the multiple choice options for those trials in which they reported experiencing a tip of the tongue state. So in that way, tip of the tongue states really are indicative of some increased ability to access the answer. In that way, they sort of have some validity. They really do indicate a heightened probability that you'll be able to recognize the answer if you see it.

[Narrator]

When people have tip of the tongue states and it's just not coming to them. Has anybody studied whether or not when it's all said and done, they eventually do or they eventually don't?

[Anne Cleary]

Yes, there's a whole domain of research centered on that very question researchers like to call what you're describing. Resolution or tip of the tongue state? Resolution, Resolution of the tip of the tongue, feeling. And it's the idea that somewhere down the road you do come up with the word. And there are a lot of studies to support this idea that, that when you have a tip of the tongue state, it's pretty predictive of eventually arriving at the word. And so research does support the idea that that happens, that eventually the word does come in a lot of those instances, not all of them, but a lot of those instances.

[Narrator]

Is there any sense when you have a tip of the tongue moment and you do recall the word, that then it is somehow more cemented that you will never forget it again than it would have been if this had never come up in the place.

[Anne Cleary]

That is such a great question. There's actually a line of research by a researcher named Karen Humphries, who has looked at what the researchers refer to as recurring tip of the tongue states. And so this line of work examines the likelihood that you'll have a recurrence of a tip of the tongue state for that same word later on. What that research has shown is that if people resolve the tip of the tongue state on their own. So basically, if you're able to eventually arrive at the word on your own somehow, then that reduces the likelihood that you'll experience on a different subsequent occasion, a tip of the tongue state for that same word. So it's kind of along the lines of what you're asking, is that if you resolve it on your own, does it sort of help cement it? That's exactly what this research suggests. Yes, but interestingly, what these researchers have also found is that if you try to give people the answer, so if the person is in the tip of the tongue state, they don't succeed in resolving it on their own, and then you give them the answer that doesn't help later. There's something about arriving at the answer on one's own that helps to reduce the likelihood of a recurrence of a tip of the tongue state for that answer. And the same researchers have shown that if you cue people, so if you give them like the first letter or, or a cue that can help them arrive at it, as long as they can still arrive at it on their own, they have a reduced likelihood of subsequently experiencing a tip of the tongue state.

[Narrator]

You did an experiment. I thought this was really interesting. So I want you to tell how you did this, where you designed a test for people that gave them some control over the answers when they took the test when they couldn't think of the answer on their own.

[Anne Cleary]

And the way that we did this was to give people basically trivia kinds of questions, what we might call general knowledge questions in academic terms, like testing terms, you'd probably call it short answer. You have to try to come up with the answer to a question and type it in. And what we did was we allowed people, if they failed to come up with the answer, they could make a decision. And the decision was, would they like to take a risk risk and have the multiple choice options presented to them. The risk is that if you select the wrong multiple choice option, you're going to lose some points, whereas if you select the correct multiple choice option, you'll gain a point. And so when people failed to retrieve the answer on the short answer component, they could either decide to just not have, if they know they don't know it, then the thing to do is decide to not have the multiple choice questions presented, because then you just stay there, same point wise. But if you think you feel close and you think you would recognize it if you're presented with the multiple choice options, that gives you an opportunity to possibly gain a point, but at the risk that if you pick the wrong one, you're going to now lose a point where you could have stayed the same if you hadn't tried. And so in doing that study, what we found was that when people felt like the answer was on the tip of their tongue in the short answer component of the test, they could actually use that feeling to make decisions about whether and when to have that multiple choice set presented to them. And they actually, you know, were able to get higher overall point scores when they were given that opportunity than people who were not given that opportunity. And so what that suggests is that this is a way that we can really put to use in an academic type of situation the usefulness of a tip of the tongue state that it really does indicate an increased likelihood that you'll recognize the answer if you see it later. And so if we designed tests that way, students can capitalize on that to know at a metacognitive level how to proceed and when to ask for the multiple choice and when to not, which can enable them to basically show that they do have some knowledge that wouldn't have shown up on a simple multiple choice type of question format.

[Narrator]

Well, I think like most people, I certainly have had those moments when it's right on the tip of my tongue. I had no idea people researched this and dug deep, as you have done, and it's really interesting to hear, and Ann has also done a lot of research on Deja vu and she was a guest here a while back. If you'd like to hear that discussion, it's episode 968. I know it's hard to find episode numbers on most podcast apps, but on our website you can search by episode number. It's real easy 968. It'll come right and the website is somethingyou should know.net Ann Cleary is a professor of psychology at Colorado State University and the name of her book is Tip of the Tongue States, Retrieval, Metacognition, and Experience. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show Notes. Anne, thank you.

[Anne Cleary]

Okay, great. Well, thanks so much.

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[Narrator]

So here's the problem. What what you say is not necessarily what someone else hears. After all, you said it. You know what you meant to say, you said it. But the other person knows what they heard and they're often not the same thing. That's just one of many ways that we miscommunicate. Sometimes we talk too much when less would be better. Or we try to win an argument and convince someone else they're wrong, which is seldom a good idea. So many things go wrong in our day to day communication and they don't have to if we pay attention. And here to explain how to do that is Jefferson Fisher. He is a lawyer and frequent sought after speaker on the topic of communication and he is author of a book called the next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. Hi Jefferson, welcome to something you should know.

[Mike Carruthers]

Hey Mike, thank you so much for having me.

[Narrator]

So of all the potential missteps that can happen in a conversation or communication, what's the one that you see trips people up? The most?

[Mike Carruthers]

Biggest thing that I see people doing wrong in communication is they think that just because they said it, that's exactly how the other person heard it. They think just because they said the words and it sounded like it did when it was in their head, they were saying it out loud. They think that's exactly how the other person interprets it, how they, it's the only way they could ever receive it. And, and that is a recipe for disaster. When you get into these fights. Yeah, you get into these fights. That's not what I said. And they go, yeah, that's exactly what you said. That's not what I said. You get into this tit for tat and then what does somebody say? Somebody says, I, I wish I had it recorded. I wish there was a video camera or I could have seen. Exactly, you could have seen how you, you, you made that face at me.

[Narrator]

Yeah, well, I see that. Well, I have that happen to me all the time. And as you say, it's not always the words, you know if you wrote them down and read them, okay, that's what you said. It's the tone of your voice. It's the volume of your voice. It's the way you. It's the total communication, not just the words you said. I took it one way. You may have meant it another way, and now we're disconnected.

[Mike Carruthers]

Exactly.

[Narrator]

So what's a better way? I mean, how do you prevent that? Or do. Or does it happen first and then you fix it or what?

[Mike Carruthers]

Instead of this fight over, that's not what I said. Instead, begin with a question. The question is, what did you hear? Rather than, that's not what I said, simply ask a question, what did you hear? And it allows the other person to go, what I heard was you were upset about this. What I heard was you. You were saying, I'm a bad mom. You're saying, I don't do enough around here. You're saying. And you go, no, it allows you to clarify, allows you to go back to intentions to say, let me. Let me start again, or, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention. What I meant to say was. And redo it. Most of the time, we don't allow the redo. We just force our interpretation and commit to it being the only interpretation that this person can have. And then we get into an argument with them that their interpretation is not your interpretation, and you just. You riddle the conversation with these little mini arguments that are unnecessary.

[Narrator]

What's another good example of when conversation gets us in trouble?

[Mike Carruthers]

Let's say, for example, you and I are in conversation and it starts to get heated, and I use this phrase. I say, mike, you always or you never. Well, now we've changed it. Now we've altered a new layer to the dynamic. And that is whether you always or never do it, because you're going to say, no, I don't always do that. And you go, yeah, you always do it. Okay, name a time that I did this. And we're just totally off base from where the conversation actually started. So when you fall to extremes, that's the always and the never easy, easy way to get off track in an argument. Whenever you find that in conversation, argument can be a good thing. We can advocate for positions where it goes wrong is where you instead see the argument as a competition between each other. And when you see arguments as something to win rather than something to unravel, if you can start seeing them as, hey, I need to step away from this competition, instead, just listen to another point of view. Better things are going to happen in your life.

[Narrator]

So there are many conversations, political conversations, father, son conversations, husband, wife conversations where it seems as if the goal is to try to convince the other person that. That whatever position they hold is incorrect, that that's not correct. I'm right, you're wrong. Should that ever be the goal of a conversation? Because it seems that's a hard one to win.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you set out to win an argument, Mike, you'll lose the relationship because nobody wants to be around the person who always has to be right. If you want a very quick way to scale back a potential disagreement is to. Instead of saying, I disagree, which is me saying, I don't like your point, it's wrong. Your point is wrong when I say I disagree. If I said that to you, Mike, you. You. You have an opinion. I say I disagree, and I start talking. Are you gonna listen to me? Yeah, probably most likely not. What? Yeah, you're. What you're going to do now is you're. Your mind is now racing to go, okay, buddy, let me find even better arguments. You're now taking in a big breath. You're now trying to size up, you know, well, I'm. I'm just gonna. You start building your ammunition, you start building your wall. You start, you know, putting in your moat. You're not trying to listen to me more. Instead, you're trying to bolster your argument so that by the second time around, you could. You hit. Hit me hard. And that. That rarely, if ever, works. Instead of this I disagree, what will get you there is use words of perspective. Either words that sound like words that are, including the word perspective, view, see, look, vantage, take, approach, any of these kind of words of perspective don't get people defensive. So instead of I disagree, what I would tell you to turn it to is I see things differently. I have a different perspective. I have another take. And what it does is you don't get upset by it. Instead, you almost get curious of like, oh, what do you. What do you see? It's me almost inviting you to say, hey, come over to my side and take a look, and you'll. And you'll see it all makes sense. So when you add in that layer of curiosity that you care to understand somebody else's perspective, they won't get defensive.

[Narrator]

One of the things it seems, that gets in the way of conversations is emotions. People get upset, and I'm listening to you talk, and you have a very kind of even keel. You don't sound like you're easy to upset in a conversation. Maybe you Are, but it doesn't sound like it. But some people are really easy to upset. They get upset and then things go off the rails. And I don't know if there's any simple advice for preventing that or dealing with that, but if there is, I'd love to hear it.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you are somebody who's hot headed and you frequently fly off the handle or you yell and say things, usually it's not a word problem, it's a body problem. Meaning you haven't found a way yet to regulate your system. System. I sound calm because I typically am very calm and I speak very slow. I speak pretty low, my pace is pretty even. I don't super rush, I don't super go extra slow and that people will mirror that and calm down themselves. It's a body problem in the way that you're holding your breath. It's what I teach is when you go into conversations, especially a heated one, let your breath be the first word that you say. So wherever your first word would be of your response, you put a breath in its place. Because it's not only going to make sure you're regulated, it's also going to give enough time to regulate the other person because most likely they need it too. And when you use your breath, breath to calm yourself down, what you're telling your body is this is not a threat to me. This person is not threatening to me. Their position, their point of view, their opinion isn't threatening to me. And when you tell your body that you naturally your shoulders will not get nearly as tense. Most likely people listening right now you can go ahead and relax your shoulders. We hold our shoulders all the time without even thinking about, about it.

[Narrator]

So when you say you, you speak calmly, you, you speak low, that's very intentional. Or that just, that's just who you are or both.

[Mike Carruthers]

Both. It's part of my of course how I grew up. If you listen to my dad, we would have pretty much the same voice. So a lot some of that's just genetics of how I sound. We usually sound like a parent in some way or another especially the older we get get. And then a lot of it is intentional as well, especially if it's really heated argument. I have a very good friend of mine who his whole history is in crisis response and what they taught him is when you're approaching a scene or a crime scene, walk, don't run because you are giving this sense of yeah, let's say there's some type of, of hostage negotiation going on. You, you walk it's It's a sense of, nope, everything's under control. I got this. We're good. You know, a solution is coming rather than running and getting everybody worked up and stirred up. So it's. It's very much kind of that. That same pattern, you can be intentional. So when I go into conflict, somebody's yelling and I lower my voice even more and I slow things down. You know what they do? Do they slow it down, too?

[Narrator]

So how do you. Well, maybe not. Well, yeah, how do you. But also the recommendation for everybody who's been in that conversation with someone who's very intimidating, very, you know, type A, tries to control everything, talks over you, and, you know, you're the kind of the opposite of that. You're not screaming and yelling. How do you handle it? And maybe that's how you would recommend other people handle it. Because the problem with that, I see, with that dynamic, is once the roles are set, if somebody's being very dominating and you're ending up being very submissive, it's hard to break out of those roles once they've been established in a conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, what I like to do, if I know I'm going into a room with somebody who's kind of. What we would say is a bull in a china shop, is I like to do a technique called priming the room. I might sit down, and rather than talking about them directly, I'm going to talk about something bigger, more general that encompasses both of us. For example, I might sit down and say, I want to make sure that we're in a room where we can both be super transparent, or I want to make sure that we're in a place right now that you and I can speak freely. I want to make sure that this. This is a room where you and I are on level footage footing. I can speak and I'm going to be heard. They'll agree to that. They will always agree to that. But when you say it in terms of, I want to make sure this is a room, a space, a place, you are signaling that we're both in this. And these are rules that we are both abiding by. It's like an invisible contract. And so when I prime the room that way, you see how much better that is than me saying, hey, okay, I'm going to tell you something, and I need to make sure that you're actually listening to me and not cutting me off. Cool. That's. They're going to. Spikes are going to come out.

[Narrator]

But if they are the bull in the China shop and they start the bullying. The bullying and the like. How do you, how do you mitigate that? How do you.

[Mike Carruthers]

They're very simple ways of showing someone the rules of engagement when it comes to communicating with you. So what I would say is I'd use your name first. I say, mike, I don't allow people to talk to me disrespectfully. If you continue to talk to me in that tone, this is going to need to be the end of the conversation.

[Narrator]

So that's.

[Mike Carruthers]

Those are three different steps. One is, I'm telling you what the. My boundary is. I don't allow. I don't allow people to do X, Y and Z. Two is, I'm giving you the condition. I'm giving you the chance. If you continue to. I make it contingent. If you continue to, then three, add the consequence. And this is the biggest one, in my opinion, because you have to be willing to do it. This is the end of the conversation. Meaning I'm willing to get up and walk away. If you're willing to do that, you got to be willing to do it. Same thing with people who you've seen bad relationship problems. They say, you say that one more time, I'm out the door, I'm leaving. And of course, what happens? They do it one more time and they don't leave, they don't walk away. Well, now you've only reinforced the power dynamic. You've made sure that the other person knows you're all bark, no bite. You really don't mean it. You can say whatever, and you're always going to stay exactly where you are. And you're just, just. You are deepening the power dynamic when you do that. So instead, use three simple rules. Tell them what your boundary is. Give the condition and the consequence.

[Narrator]

That's great advice. And so where else do you find, or what? Since you're the expert on this, what do people ask you about a lot? Where do you see the problem? Something that we haven't talked about yet that you think could really help people in these situations, in conversation situations, to make things go better.

[Mike Carruthers]

I teach a framework for people to have difficult conversations, really any conversation, but they work particularly well in the difficult ones. And this is how it goes. Let's say I have to let you go in our company and you've come down to the office and you sit down and I say, yeah, Mike, how's it going? Yeah, it's good. Good to see you. Yeah. How's your, how's your family? How's everybody doing? You good? Yeah. Oh, yeah. This weather, it's crazy. So listen, Mike, I. Then deliver the news. Not right away. It still takes me a while. I kind of go in a circle. You're sitting there going, where are we going with this? What's happening, happening? That's how it typically goes in difficult conversations. And that's the worst way it goes in difficult conversations. I'm saying that small talk stuff not to make you feel better. I'm saying it for me to feel better, to kind of soften the landing. For me, that's usually very unkind. What I teach is if you want to be kind, you need to be.

[Narrator]

Be direct.

[Mike Carruthers]

It's one of the kindest things. You can do it. So instead, here's the framework. One, you're going to tell them what you want to talk about. Two, you want to tell them how you want the conversation to end. That's the big one. And three, get their buy in into the frame. I call this a frame, like you would put a frame around a picture. So instead of all this small talk stuff, I'm going to begin with exactly what I want to talk about. I'm going to say, mike, this is going to be a hard conversation. I'm going to let you kind of take a break. You're going to probably nod like, okay, got it. I need to let you go. And at the end of this conversation, we're going to walk away with a plan of how this is going to be and where we're going to go from here on out. All right? Right. And you're probably going to go, all right. Or let's say you've done something wrong in the company. I might bring you in and say, mike, I need to have a conversation about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting. And I want to walk away from this conversation with the understanding that's not going to happen again. Sound good? Very easy, quick, to the point. There's no fluff. There's no questioning of what is going on.

[Narrator]

Lastly, some general advice for any conversation. When you're in a conversation with anyone at all, what do you need to keep in mind?

[Mike Carruthers]

I teach that the person you see isn't always the person you're talking to. Let's say in my own relationships, my wife might come in and she's upset about something. Before we know it, boom, we're having an issue about something. That's minor. That's something maybe on the kitchen counter or whatever, somebody accidentally spilled something. And the issue is not that my dad would always Tell me. The issue is rarely the issue. There's always something else. Come to find out. It's an email that she got at 8am from another client that got her in an upset mood. And I've done certainly the same thing. Everybody has something else going on. When you really take the time, take a minute to get curious and, and try to reach that other person. The person you see is not the person you're talking to you the, the waitress who's waiting on you and she brought your coffee just a little bit too late and you could get all worked up or maybe she was being, you thought she was being rude to you. Well, you have no clue what's happening in, in her life and you're not aware of her struggles. Same thing with the guy who is coming to be a repairman at your house. Instead of seeing the person who's delivering you coffee is whatever her name is, it could be Sheila. See it as your name with your name tag on it. And I promise you, you'll treat that person with a little bit more grace.

[Narrator]

Well, communication and miscommunication, as we've been discussing, is so important to everyone because it happens all the time. And if we can avoid it or at least fix it when it happens, all the better. And I appreciate your advice. Jefferson Fisher's been my guest. He's an attorney and author of the book the Next Argue Less, Talk More. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Jefferson, thank you for being here today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Thank you very much, Mike. I appreciate it, man. I wish you all the best.

[Narrator]

It seems as if conserving water has become more and more a priority for people because even if there isn't a drought now, there could be a drought tomorrow. And one way to conserve water is the way you treat your lawn. If you lightly water your lawn once a day, that's too much. Daily watering encourages your grass to develop a very shallow root system. Turf experts say the best approach is to give your lawn one long soaking for about 30 minutes once a month. And this is according to Consumer Reports. Now, that might not sound like enough, but it is. If you water it right. You want to be sure it's done early in the morning between 4 and 7am and you'll want to avoid watering in windy or breezy conditions. And stop cutting your lawn so often. You should let it grow to about 5 inches before you mow it. Watering less will save water money and time because you won't have to cut it so often. And that is something you should know. Something you should Know is produced by Jennifer Brennan, Jeff Heavison and the executive producer is Ken Williams. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something you should Know.

[Advertiser]

You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring, but the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim, Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids. Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment. Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest. So you, your kids, your whole family can choose. What is the right level of grim for you? Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest.

[Narrator]

Trust me on this one.

[Advertiser]

Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest and our new season.

[Sarah Gabrieli]

Available now from the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country. And back in time, through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of Cruising beyond the Bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrieli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more.

[Mike Carruthers]

For 11 years, every night women slept.

[Anne Cleary]

Illegally on the Common. We would move down to the West.

[Mike Carruthers]

Indies to form a lesbian nation.

[Anne Cleary]

Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music. And that's kind of the origins of the Combiheuga Collective.

[Sarah Gabrieli]

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday starting February 4th.