Why We Like Cute Things & How to Have a Great Conversation

Summary

Podcast Summary: Something You Should Know Episode: Why We Like Cute Things & How to Have a Great Conversation
Release Date: January 23, 2025
Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media

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Introduction

In this episode of "Something You Should Know," host Mike Carruthers delves into two engaging topics: the psychological and evolutionary reasons behind our love for cute things, and the complexities of having meaningful conversations. Featuring experts Joshua Paul Dale and Alison Wood Brooks, the episode offers deep insights into human behavior and communication.

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Segment 1: The Power of Cuteness

Guest: Joshua Paul Dale
Timestamp: 00:44 - 28:23

Understanding Cuteness

Joshua Paul Dale, a professor of English Literature and Culture at Chuo University in Tokyo and author of How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World, explores what makes something cute and why it's so appealing. He introduces the concept of the "baby schema," which refers to features that resemble those of babies—such as large eyes, wide faces, and small limbs—that trigger our innate caregiving instincts.

Joshua Paul Dale (01:00): "Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly within 1/7 of a second. Then it acts as a releaser of social emotions like well being and empathy and compassion and things like that."

Evolutionary and Cultural Aspects

Dale discusses the evolutionary basis for our attraction to cuteness, suggesting that it evolved to ensure that infants receive the necessary care and socialization to thrive. This response not only applies to human babies but also extends to animals like puppies and kittens.

Joshua Paul Dale (07:14): "Scientists think that we evolved to feel cute because babies need to be taken care of. And even more than that, they need socialization."

He contrasts Western and Japanese cultural perspectives, noting that cuteness has been a significant element in Japanese art and society for over a thousand years, whereas it became prominent in Western culture much later, around the Renaissance.

Psychological Impact of Cuteness

Cuteness induces positive emotional states, enhances our sense of well-being, and promotes social relationships by increasing empathy and compassion. Studies reveal that seeing something cute can activate the muscles used for smiling, even subconsciously.

Joshua Paul Dale (08:48): "Cuteness can basically induce positive emotional states because it gets our brain ready for behaviors like caretaking and also socialization."

Cuteness in Marketing and Technology

Dale explains how marketers exploit cuteness to sell products, leveraging our natural attraction to cute objects to influence purchasing decisions. He also touches on the emergence of "auditory cuteness" in AI and robotics, where higher-pitched and playful voices are designed to elicit a similar emotional response.

Joshua Paul Dale (11:01): "Companies are very aware that [cuteness] can be a big advantage to them."

Future of Cuteness in AI and Robotics

Looking ahead, Dale envisions a future where AI-powered robots are designed to perpetually perform cute behaviors, enhancing human-robot interaction by maintaining our interest and empathy.

Joshua Paul Dale (27:13): "If there was an AI that trained on all those cute videos and then the AI was able to operate a robotic body like a robotic dog, then it could perform cuteness in ways that would never make us bored."

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Segment 2: The Art and Science of Conversation

Guest: Alison Wood Brooks
Timestamp: 30:02 - 51:13

Defining a Good Conversation

Alison Wood Brooks, a professor at Harvard Business School and author of The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, discusses the multifaceted nature of conversations. She emphasizes that a good conversation is determined by the participants' goals, which can range from seeking information and building connections to simply enjoying each other's company.

Alison Wood Brooks (31:04): "The definition of a good conversation is not up to me as a scientist or as a professor. It's determined by the goals of the people participating in the conversation."

The Conversation Pyramid: Small Talk to Deep Talk

Brooks introduces the "conversation pyramid," illustrating how conversations typically progress from small talk (base) to more meaningful discussions (peak). She advises using small talk as a gateway to deeper conversations by gradually introducing more personal or engaging topics.

Alison Wood Brooks (35:18): "You never know what you could uncover even in a seemingly sort of shallow conversation."

The Role of Listening

Effective communication hinges on active listening. Brooks highlights that listening involves not just hearing words but also interpreting nonverbal cues and demonstrating understanding. She underscores that listening is effortful, requiring focus and energy, especially in our multitasking world.

Alison Wood Brooks (44:44): "Listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information, and then in your mind, you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it."

Managing Conversational Fatigue

In today's fast-paced environment, conversational fatigue is common. Brooks advises giving oneself and others grace, recognizing that maintaining high-quality conversations consistently is challenging due to the cognitive demands involved.

Alison Wood Brooks (39:01): "The fatigue, the drain on our energy that comes from that is very, very real and should be taken seriously."

Ending Conversations Gracefully

Closing a conversation can be awkward, but Brooks shares research suggesting that since we often misjudge the right moment to end a discussion, it's okay to exit conversations when they no longer serve their purpose. She encourages embracing the inevitability of imperfect endings.

Alison Wood Brooks (47:21): "As soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Like, just end it. It's okay."

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Conclusion

This episode of "Something You Should Know" offers a comprehensive exploration of why we are drawn to cute things and how to navigate the complexities of meaningful conversations. With expert insights from Joshua Paul Dale and Alison Wood Brooks, listeners gain a deeper understanding of human emotions and interactions, equipping them with practical knowledge to enhance their daily lives.

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Notable Quotes

• Joshua Paul Dale (01:00): "Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly within 1/7 of a second. Then it acts as a releaser of social emotions like well being and empathy and compassion and things like that."

• Alison Wood Brooks (35:18): "You never know what you could uncover even in a seemingly sort of shallow conversation."

• Alison Wood Brooks (44:44): "Listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information, and then in your mind, you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it."

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For more insights and in-depth discussions, listen to the full episode of "Something You Should Know" on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Joshua Paul Dale]

Cuteness attracts our attention very quickly within 1/7 of a second. Then it acts as a releaser of social emotions like well being and empathy and compassion and things like that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also the biggest reason car tires blow out and how to prevent it and the anatomy of good conversation and why every conversation is important.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You never know what you could uncover even in a seemingly sort of shallow conversation. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Joshua Paul Dale]

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[Mike Carruthers]

World'S top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today. Something you should know with Mike Carruthers and as I record this, I have to tell you this. I am so glad this last 10 days is over. We were right at the edge of the Eaton fire, one of the two first big fires in California. It burned right, literally right to our backyard. But we are okay. And I had a cold, that nasty cold that's going around that just will not go away. The cough keeps lingering. It's been a tough couple of days, so I'm glad we're pretty much at the end of it. Hi, welcome to Something youg Should Know. We're going to start today talking about one of the pitfalls, big pitfalls of email and texting for that matter, and it has to do with sarcasm. For people to understand another person's sarcasm, they have to share context. If two people are about to walk out into a rainstorm and one person says, gee, what a lovely day for a walk, well, everybody gets it. Everybody understands the sarcasm because they all share the same context. But in an email or a text message, the person may not share this common ground. So any sarcasm could easily be misunderstood. In fact, it might even be offensive. Studies have been conducted and have shown that sarcasm in email is often taken literally, and that can lead to a lot of trouble. Emoticons can help, but many of them are ambiguous, hard to see, and can look unprofessional. So as a general rule, sarcasm in an email or a text is extremely risky and probably better left to vocal communication where it's much more obvious. And that is something you should know. Human beings are suckers for all things cute. A cute baby, a cute puppy, a kitten, a bear cub, a cartoon character. They all grab our attention because they're so cute. So what is cute? What makes something cute? Does cute sell? Marketers use cute characters a lot to sell products. Does it work? Well, as you might imagine, cute has been studied. And one of the experts on cute is Joshua Paul Dale. He is a professor in the Department of English Literature and Culture at I think it's Pronounced Chuo University in Tokyo. C h u o. He's been featured as an expert on cuteness by media outlets such as the New York Times, cnn, National Geographic, the Guardian, and Discover magazine. He's author of a book called How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. Hi Joshua. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Hello, Mike, and thanks very much for having me.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what a fascinating topic because everybody seems to be attracted to things that are cute. But you wonder, like, what is it about something that makes it cute? Because you could look at a cute puppy and they're just adorable. But in a few weeks, few months, not so cute anymore. So what happened? We all know cute when we see it. But what is the definition of cute?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah, we call that the baby schema. And basically anything that reminds us of a baby is going to appear cute to us. So you gave the example of puppies. They have big eyes as they're maturing, they have kind of wide face, they have short little arms and legs. And these are the things that trigger a cuteness response in us. Because we evolved to feel that babies are cute.

[Mike Carruthers]

We evolved to it. It's evolution or is it just cultural?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Oh, yeah, that's a really good question. And it seems to be a mix of both. So scientists think that we evolved to feel cute because babies need to be taken care of. And even more than that, they need socialization. They need us to engage with them so that they can learn to be part of human society. And that response was so robust, because it's needed in our evolution as a species, that it kind of spills over into anything that looks like a baby, like puppies or kittens.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what are the elements of cuteness? What must something have in order for people to look at it and go, oh, look how cute?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yes, this is the question that companies are always trying to figure out when they design cute products. And the threshold is different for individuals, so we can never know for sure. Otherwise, you know, I can make a million dollars right now just by designing the perfect cute product. So basically, it has to have some of the characteristics of the baby schema. But more important, I think, is the relationship that we can feel with the cute object. So if we can feel some kind of connection and there's a few cute characteristics, then we're going to be overwhelmed by that feeling of cuteness.

[Mike Carruthers]

And what does seeing or observing or experiencing cuteness in the world do for me? Why do I like it and what does it do for me?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Well, studies have shown some really interesting results about that. Cuteness can basically induce positive emotional states because it gets our brain ready for behaviors like caretaking and also socialization. So when we see something cute, first of all, it makes us feel good. It increases our sense of well being. It also triggers activity in the muscles used for smiling, even if we're not aware of it. Scientists have put sensors on people's faces and the muscles are activated for smiling when we see something cute. And also seeing something cute promotes social relationships. Like it increases our empathy and it even focuses our attention more.

[Mike Carruthers]

The word cute, though, seems to have been hijacked for a lot of things. Like you will often see someone try clothes on and go, oh, that outfit. It's so cute. It looks so cute on you. Well, does it look cute on you? It doesn't look cute. Certainly not. The way you're talking about cute. It's come to mean something else. I'm not sure what that means.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah, cute can be a synonym for very similar words like pretty or adorable, which is very close to cute. And there's also an element of the word cute in English that is not in the word in other languages. Cute in English can imply something that's a little bit clever or cunning. Like you can say, oh, don't be cute to someone, for example. And you're not talking about adorability there. You're saying, don't be so clever in other languages. Like in Japanese, the word for cute is kawaii, and it does not have that kind of meaning. You cannot say don't be kawaii in the way that you can say don't be cute in English. That's what I find so interesting about this phenomenon.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are we suckers for cute? In other words, if there are two similar items for sale and they're the same price, everything's similar. But one of them's got this cute baby puppy vase. Are we more likely to buy it?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

I think it depends on our own situation. So some people are more attracted to cute things than others. And there's interesting research going on right now about AI assistants, which are coming fast. And so the scientists are wondering, will people like an assistant that sounds cute or one that sounds more professional? And it really depends on the situation. If you're asking for help with a technical issue, you want professionality. But there are other cases where if a voice, artificial voice, sounds kind of cute, that you might forgive its mistakes a little bit more easily, for example. And companies are very aware that that can be a big advantage to them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, that brings up an interesting question, because we know what a cute voice sounds like, but a cute voice doesn't have any of the characteristics that you talked about because you can't see it. So what makes a cute voice cute?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah, there is a phenomenon they call auditory cuteness that's also being investigated. And so far, the research has really concentrated on voices that are sort of a little bit more higher pitched. There are actually robots available that create sounds they don't talk through a cavity in their bodies that is the same size as a baby's vocal voice box. Sorry, the same size as a baby's voice box. So in general, if a voice sounds like a little bit higher pitch and also a little bit, maybe a little bit funny or laughing a little bit, then we're more likely to imagine a relationship with that voice and go along with it.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about cuteness with other species? Because if you see like little wolves or little bears, they're adorable, they're cute. They're very cute. Is it having the same effect on other bears? Like, oh, isn't that cub so cute or not?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Well, we will feel that animals are cute if they have the baby schema characteristics and also if they're in their, what we call the socialization period. Young animals, including predators like bears or wolves, in their first few weeks of life, they are very curious and they explore everything and they have a lot of energy. Those are the characteristics that human children have too, and these will help trigger our cuteness response. But of course, with wild animals, once the socialization window closes, then they become more cautious and can become aggressive as well.

[Mike Carruthers]

So why do you care about this? Why is this worth studying other than I can certainly see from a marketing point of view wanting to understand how to use cuteness to sell stuff. But I assume your interest in this is not that.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Well, that's part of it. I mean, my typical answer to the question of why do I study cute is that it's a multi billion dollar industry operating around the world and very few people are studying it. But more than that, I mean, you're right to guess that I have more of an interest. And my interest really lies in just how deep it goes and how many ways you can study it from so many different positions. You can study the science of cuteness, the psychology of cuteness from marketing, sure. But also from a cultural standpoint. What do we find cute and why? And how is this different across individuals and cultures? It just seems like I'll never get to the bottom of it. And that's what attracts me.

[Mike Carruthers]

We're discussing cuteness. My guest is Joshua Paul Dale. He's author of the book How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. I really love it when I find a great new podcast. And then of course, I have to share that with everyone. And one I really want you to listen to is Curiosity Weekly. Curiosity Weekly from Discovery makes sense of some of the biggest questions and ideas shaping our world. It's all about new discoveries happening in science and tech, and they have expert guests that make it all make sense. It's a bit similar to something you should know, which is why I think you'll like it, but it takes a different spin. Listen to Curiosity Weekly and you'll discover things like how neuroscientists are studying TikTok and social media habits to see which chemicals are being released in your brain that make you so obsessed. Or how it is that you can fly from Florida to England on a plane using recycled plastic jet fuel. And how AI can now read hieroglyphics from Egyptian pyramids. What's so great about Curiosity Weekly is there's so much to learn about science and tech, and these guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of the most interesting stuff. Food science, the science behind social media, the science of algorithms, computer science. And it's all explained in a fascinating way every week on Curiosity Weekly. Listen to Curiosity Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So Joshua, what about the history of cuteness? Has cuteness always been a thing? Has it always been important? Has it always been as big a deal as it is now? My guess is that's probably not the case, but you tell me.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah, in Western culture, like European history, there has not been so much cuteness. In arts and literature, you know, where we can track it until possibly the Renaissance, when cupids appeared in artworks. So there are many frescoes and paintings from the Renaissance with little winged cupids flying around that look like babies. In Japan, it's different. Cuteness has been a presence in the arts in Japan for at least a thousand years in art and literature. And that difference is also something that I'm really interested in exploring.

[Mike Carruthers]

Why do you think it's so popular in Japanese culture for so long?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

One reason is that in Europe, the aesthetics that guided art were the beautiful and the sublime. So painters just wanted to make things that were perfect and beautiful or that really impressed you like a sublime object. In Japan, the aesthetics leaned more towards the everyday, and painters wanted to do things that people would like rather than just focusing on perfection. In fact, Japanese art kind of prefers asymmetry to symmetry. And this is that atmosphere that allowed cuteness to rise up in the arts in Japan so early, I think.

[Mike Carruthers]

So does cuteness perpetuate itself, in other words, when you see a character in a movie that's very cute and then seems like there's more of those kinds of characters in movies? Because it seemed to work the last time, and then there's more cuteness and more cuteness, like, it kind of builds on itself.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah, it definitely can go in waves. There was an initial wave in the early 20th century that had to do with new technologies, like new printing technologies, so you could do color photographs and newspaper comic supplements and the era of mass production. And we're in the midst, I think, of another boom in cuteness that was caused by the Internet and social media, because now we can share content so easily, and it crosses geographical borders so easily, and so it feeds on itself. Like you said, we see a little cute content, and it's popular, so more and more is produced, and it just keeps going.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is it fair to say that cuteness appeals to women more than men or not?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Studies. Some studies have shown that women seem to be a bit more sensitive to cuteness, which is not really surprising, because I think that cuteness is really part of girls and young women's culture. But on the other hand, the studies also show that men have sensitivity to cuteness as well. So it's really a mixed thing that appeals to all genders.

[Mike Carruthers]

Are we being manipulated by cuteness much in the way, you know, people say sex sells? Does cuteness sell? Are we suckers for cuteness?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yes, we are absolutely being manipulated by cuteness constantly. I can say that with confidence. Companies that make products that are cute are definitely trying to get us to buy them. Content providers are making cute content because it's popular and then we will subscribe to their channels. So we do have to be a little bit careful of that, I think, and just kind of be aware of when we're attracted to something we by its cuteness, you know, who benefits? We benefit. But perhaps we're allowing something else to benefit too, like a corporation.

[Mike Carruthers]

So you said a few minutes ago that there are so many ways to look at this topic of cuteness. And for someone who doesn't study cuteness, I can't imagine what some of those ways are. So what's one of those ways?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Sure. For example, there have been some really interesting studies that put people into brain scanners and show them cute images and take a look at what happens to our brains when we are feeling the emotion of cuteness. And what they found is that cuteness attracts our attention very quickly, within 1/7 of a second. And then it acts kind of as a releaser of social emotions. So after we're attracted to a cute object, then it can influence our behavior. But it doesn't do that automatically. The attraction is automatic. But then it influences our behavior only if we really like cute things and depending on the situation and in that case it will release all these pro social feelings like well being and empathy and compassion and things like that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Because based on what you're saying, there's a lot we now know about cuteness. I'm wondering how tech is incorporating, if at all, this whole concept of cuteness and if so, how.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Right now I'm looking to the near future to what's happening with AI, but also robotics, because I've been, you know, I have a Google Scholar alert for cuteness. So a couple times a week these emails pop up in my inbox and I get advanced news on what's being published in the academic fields on robotics and AI. And I've been noticing a lot of papers that are concentrating on cuteness, like how can we make a robot act in a cute way? And they're very technical. The latest article I read was talking about head tilting. Like how can a robot tilt its head so we look at it and go, oh, that's so cute. What is the angle that needs to be done? What speed does the robot's head have to move? So from this I get the impression that going to be seeing a new generation of robots that are designed to look cute and to appeal to us through their cuteness. And we get a whole, you know, a whole bunch of reasons for that. Some of them are a profit for the company, but also it's a way to help us to feel closer to that robot, to engage to it with it, and then it will help us more if that's the robot's intention.

[Mike Carruthers]

Right. Well, certainly you wouldn't feel all that threatened by a cute robot where you might. With a robot that talks like this, you know, that a cute robot way. Oh, that's okay. I'll play with that.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Exactly.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we respond to cuteness almost instantly because it has this, which you describe as the baby scheme. It looks like a baby or has elements of the look of a baby. Do babies respond to cuteness to other babies who are cute?

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yes, actually, studies have shown that. Yeah. And I actually think anyone with children would recognize that once they reach a certain age, they are able to use their cuteness to try to manipulate their parents. So cuteness is both appreciated by very young children and also used by very young children.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah. And there have been. I've heard people say that, you know, maybe dogs can try to use it too. Like when they've done something bad, they do that cute, you know, sad face thing. It's hard for me to imagine that's a deliberate use of cuteness.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Yeah. Dogs have this muscle that allows them to raise their eyebrows. And it's interesting because wolves, who they descended from do not have this muscle. So it seems to have evolved because it is particularly effective in emotionally manipulating humans who have been taking care of dogs for a long time. So I don't know if the dogs are deliberately. I mean, they didn't deliberately evolve this new muscle. It's just that the ones who had it survived better than the ones who didn't. And that's because of its effect on us. So really, you know, I. We're not really sure if animals feel cuteness themselves or if they are able to use cuteness to manipulate us. But certainly animals will try to manipulate us just like young children will. I think anyone with a cat or a dog will know that sometimes the animal is trying to manipulate us to get food or our attention or care. And cuteness is a very effective way of doing that.

[Mike Carruthers]

But are they using it deliberately or are they just cute? So, you know, it's hard to get mad at them because look how cute they are.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

I think it's both. I think any animal, and that includes young humans, will use every weapon in their arsenal to try to get what they want. And cuteness is one of those, like, tools. So, you know, I don't know how much they're actually aware that this is. That cuteness is the thing they're using. It's just the effective thing that they're using. And they've realized that this is effective and that's why they're using it.

[Mike Carruthers]

So lastly, one last thing about cuteness that I probably don't know, that would surprise me or interest me or fascinate me or whatever.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

So right now we have these AI chatbots that have learned through absorbing a tremendous amount of text and we have these AI image generators that can generate images because they have absorbed a ton of images. But so far there haven't been any AIs that have trained on a huge corpus of videos. But think of the tens of thousands or even millions of cute videos that have been uploaded to social media and the Internet. If there was an AI that trained on all of those cute videos and then the AI was able to operate a robotic body like a robotic dog. Sony already makes a robotic dog called the Aibo and it's pretty cute. If it has an AI engine in it that is trained with all those videos, then it could perform cuteness in ways that would never make us bored, would always attract our attention and interest and always attract our empathy and connection and always increase our own sense of well being. And that's where I think the future might be headed.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, who knew There was so much about cuteness to talk about, but it's interesting to hear that there is so much to talk about. I've been talking with Joshua Paul Dale. He's one of the leading experts on cuteness and he's author of a book called How Cuteness Wired Our Brains and Conquered the World. And there's a link to his book on Amazon in the show notes Joshua. This was really interesting. I know more about cuteness than I ever thought I would.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

Your questions are great and I mean I was prepared for that because I've listened to your show, but really this was really a treat because the questions were just on point and excellent.

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[Alison Wood Brooks]

New you this year.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

It's More you on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

And you know what? We love that for you, someone else will too be more you this year.

[Joshua Paul Dale]

And find them on Bumble.

[Mike Carruthers]

When you think about how many conversations people have every day, you would think we're all experts at it by now. And some people seem to be. We all know people who are brilliant conversationalists, while others of us aren't quite so good at it. For one thing, most of us never learned formally how to make a conversation. It's just something you learn as you go. So today we're going to discuss what makes a good conversation and a good conversationalist with my guest, Alison Wood Brooks. Alison is a professor at Harvard Business School, and she is author of a book called the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Hi, Alison. Welcome to something you should know.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, as I said, conversation is something most of us just learn as we go. Seldom do we sit down and talk about the science of conversation. We just do it. So why are we talking about it?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Conversation is a surprisingly vast ocean of complexity. There's a lot going on under the hood for something we learn to do as toddlers and practice doing every day of our lives, every day, all day long, with a huge range of partners. It feels like we get to adulthood and we should be experts. And in truth, we are far from being expert at conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

So what makes a good conversation?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

The definition of a good conversation is not up to me as a scientist or as a professor. It's not even up to you, Mike. It's determined by the goals of the people participating in the conversation. And the goals that people have when they interact with other people are vast. I mean, if you didn't have. We always have at least one goal, even if it's just to have fun or be polite or to uphold the very basic expectation that you're going to respond to another person. Usually people have many more than just one goal. So you kind of hold on to this rich constellation of things. You might want to share a story, you might want to seek someone's advice. You might want to have a great time. You might want to give them a compliment. You want to persuade them to agree with your view on a certain issue. And also, you need to leave in five minutes. So we all hold these very many goals at the same time. And the person you're talking to has their own constellation of goals that they hold on to. And so the definition of success in any given conversation depends on achieving at least some subset of those goals. And achieving those goals is harder than it first appears.

[Mike Carruthers]

But in addition to those goals, and I get that, obviously if you don't reach any of the goals of the conversation, I guess that means it didn't go very well. But we've all had those conversations that almost regardless of whether we hit the goals, you walk away going, wow, what a great. That was such. I really enjoyed talking to that person. And we've all had conversations with people there. What was that about? I mean, that was the. What a waste of time that was. And I want to try to understand, like, what happened, that people walk away with those different kind of results.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. So in almost every encounter, we have some goals that are common across most conversations, one of which is that we want it to be enjoyable and feel meaningful and not overly shallow. We want to avoid awkwardness. We want to feel connected, we want to feel safe, and we want. Often we want to learn new things from each other. It's why the human race evolved. The ability to communicate at all is to share and exchange accurate information. And so to the extent that you can achieve enjoyment and safety and connection and information exchange all within one conversation, that's going to be a conversation that feels terrific. And it can break down in any one of those ways. If it's not enjoyable, if it doesn't feel safe, if it's not advancing your understanding in the way that you want it to, and if you don't feel connected to the other person, like you're helping each other and like you understand each other in any one of those ways, when we walk away, it can feel like a failure.

[Mike Carruthers]

I want to talk about small talk. People have very definite opinions on small talk. Some people hate it, some people relish in it. I don't personally mind small talk, except when you're in a situation where that's all there is. You're just kind of going from person to person and it's, hi, how are you? What do you do? And that, to me, gets old pretty quick. And sometimes those conversations are fueled by alcohol, and they just never really seem to go anywhere. And you wonder, well, well, you know, what's the point of small talk?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

So I want to push you on this, all right? You never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow context or a shallow Conversation. You never know when you're going to see someone again. You never know if you could uncover something in that conversation that would inspire you to see them again. So even in the unlikeliest of circumstances, I just want to push you and everyone, everyone to consider the idea that maybe it doesn't have to be as shallow as it first appears. I teach about this in my course at Harvard. There's this topic pyramid with three levels at the base of the pyramid. This is where small talk lives. This is topics you could talk about with anybody, let's say at a dinner party or a cocktail party. So the traffic, the weather, the weekend, the holidays, whatever stuff you can talk about with anyone. The problem isn't with small talk in general. In fact, it's a very important social ritual that helps us initiate conversations, get reacquainted with people we don't know well, or reacquaint ourselves with people we haven't seen in a while. The mistake that most people make, particularly at a cocktail party or maybe a networking event or really anywhere, is they stay too long at the base of the pyramid. So you need to think of small talk as a, as a place to be searching for something more meaningful, for looking for doorknobs to go through doors to more meaningful rooms of the conversation. And if you find them, you can move into the second tier of the pyramid, which is medium or tailored talk. And the way to get there is to get more personalized. And this might look like asking questions that triggers self disclosure from your partner. It might mean sharing something personal, maybe something joyful or painful about you, your own life. Or it could not be about disclosure at all, but just trying to find topics that are exciting to both of you. Sort of chasing the energy to find topics where they're an expert or they have some interest or just positive energy in general. So chase the energy to launch away from small talk at the very top of the pyramid is deep talk. This is a meaningful topic that maybe only you two people could talk about at a specific moment in time. The conversation we're having right now feels like we're getting there, right? Like we're there because we have this substantive topic to talk about. You have this expertise. We're getting to know each other. We're sort of hovering over deep talk. And having a substantive collaboration and work, work to work on together can help you get there. And we're all, we're sort of all navigating this topic pyramid all the time. Not every conversation is bound for the peak of the pyramid. It Would be annoying if someone is always trying to have these sort of deep, meaningful conversations with everybody. You don't need to have a deep conversation with the barista at Starbucks, but you could maybe give them a compliment or ask about their kid. Right. If it's the same person you're seeing every day and get into that medium, second tier of the pyramid. But I do want to push you and everyone on this idea of like, it doesn't have to be shallow. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, I know, you're right. I think it's more weariness. Like when you're at a networking event or something and you've had 10 or 12 of those shallow conversations, you just kind of run out of gas. It's like, I'm done, I'll try again tomorrow, but enough's enough.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. Or not. Maybe take a rest. Don't talk to anybody tomorrow. Yeah, exhaustion is real. So I think all of this stuff, thinking about how to have great conversations, how to really connect with people, One thing that has become clear through our research is it does require a tremendous amount of energy and effort. You even just listening, your mind is wandering 24% of the time, even when you're trying to listen attentively. So to be a good listener, it takes a lot of, a lot of energy, a lot of focus. And we're not always prepared. We don't always have that energy. So I think giving yourself grace about that and giving others grace about sort of social and conversational fatigue is also really important, particularly in this world where we're constantly toggling between, you know, text threads and emails and phone calls and zoom calls and in, in person conversations. There's. We're sort of having more conversation across all different modes of communication than ever before in human history. So the fatigue, the drain on our energy that comes from that is very, very real and should be taken seriously.

[Mike Carruthers]

I want to ask you about, you just used the word connect with someone and everyone's connected with someone and you sort of know what that feels like, but what does it mean to connect with someone? And do you think that because I feel like I've connected with someone, how likely is it that they feel the same way?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

What a lovely question. I sometimes think of conversation as this sort of journey that you're going on, a sort of relentless search process where you're searching for deep, meaningful moments where you get to the, the peak of that topic pyramid where you feel like, oh, we did it. We got we did the thing where we feel really close and connected and like, I trust you. And we. We talked about a thing that was. Felt really good. We felt connected. I don't think we can expect that all the time. And even in conversations where you walk away feeling like, oh, my gosh, that was great. If you looked back at the transcript, what you would see is kind of like a train wreck. Like it would. We interrupt each other all the time. There's all kinds of moments of misunderstanding. There's. We say things that we probably shouldn't. We forget to say things that we should. But there are these moments where you come together and say, wow, like, oh, that felt really good. And likely, if you're feeling that way, it's likely that the other person is as well. But to your point, Mike, like the. You never know. We really cannot read the minds of other people. The most direct way to understand what is in someone else's head and how they felt like the conversation went is to ask them directly. Questions are the most direct pathway to learning about someone else's mind.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember hearing somebody say something about Bill Clinton, that he is a great conversationalist because when you talk to him, you feel like you're the only person in the world that he makes you sow the focus of his existence for the few minutes he's talking to you. That everybody walks away from a conversation with him feeling terrific. And we've all had those people. I know those people that you talk to them and you walk away, you feel better about yourself, you feel smarter, you just feel terrific. And then the other side of that is you walk away from some conversations and feel horrible.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I've heard that about Bill Clinton as well. There are people in the world who have developed conversation as a skill. And it's very easy to look at someone like Bill Clinton and think, boy, he was. He is gifted. He is a gifted, natural conversationalist. He has this charisma. He's really good at connecting with people, and maybe it's effortless for him. And when you look at someone like Bill Clinton, who just seems charismatic and so good at connecting with people, such a great listener, it kind of makes you can make you feel bad about yourself, like, what am I not doing right here? What is this thing that he's so good at, which I call the myth of naturalness. Even for someone like Bill Clinton, what you can't see are all the many experiences that he's had in his life that led him to this place where he became such A good communicator. And you can't see all of the effort that he's putting in to every conversation to make sure that his partners are feeling so understood and loved and listened to and charmed and delighted. If you were to ask Bill Clinton, my guess would be that he thinks about people a lot when he's not together with them. He thinks about what topics he needs to bring up with them once they're together. And then once they're in a conversation, he's thinking very. He's listening very attentively, putting in tons of effort to really listen to people, elaborate on their ideas, follow up with them, and very actively sort of thinking about how to be the most helpful he can be to them in that sort of magical moment of the conversation. Also, when people describe Bill Clinton in particular, I suspect what he's quite good at is listening. And listening is one of the most important skills in conversation overall. And it's much more complicated than it first appears.

[Mike Carruthers]

And every time I talk to someone or I listen to someone talk about conversation, communicating with other people, how to be an effective communicator. They all say listening is one of the, if not the most critical parts of. Of communicating. And yet I don't think people think about that, that they. They think it's, I've got to say what I need to say and get them to understand what I'm saying.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

So I think as humans, we tend to fixate on talking, thinking about, well, when am I going to speak up and what am I going to say? What am I going to disclose? What should I ask this person? When, in fact, I think perhaps the more important part of the equation is listening, Focusing on your partner and working really hard to listen to their words, but also to their nonverbal cues, their gestures, their facial expressions. When we study listening as behavioral scientists, we think of it as all of the information that's coming at you visually and through your ears. The audio, right? And so that's the person and how they're moving, what they look like, the sound of their voice, the meaning of their words, and also the environment all around you, sort of reading the room. All of this is required when you're. When you're listening. So perhaps it's no surprise that listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information, and then in your mind, you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it. We can't really take it all in and think about all of it. And the third step of listening, that's so Unique to conversation is the expression of listening. It's not that you just hear and see things and then think about it. You can actually say and show your partner that you've heard them. So, Michael, just now you've made a really great distinction between talking and listening. The only way I can say that back to you is because I heard you say it in the first place. I'm thinking about this distinction very carefully. I'm compelled by it. And now I have the ability to repeat it back to you and affirm the distinction and say, hey, I'm willing to go there with you. Let's do this together.

[Mike Carruthers]

One of the tricky parts of conversation seems to be ending it especially. Especially if it's not going well. Or you get one of those people who answers with one word answers, and, you know, you find yourself in a conversation that's going nowhere. How do you. What do you do?

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Yes, there is fantastic research on conversational endings by behavioral scientists Adam Masriani and Gus Cooney. The end of a conversation. If we think of a conversation as the series of coordinated decisions between two people, the end of the conversation is the last coordination decision. It's saying, okay, the next topic we're going to choose is silence, and we're going to walk away from each other and it's over. And so even though that begins at the very start of, like, where. What are we going to talk about now and now and now and now and then we get to the end and somebody has the power to end it. So just like every other coordination choice, this ending decision is surprisingly difficult and causes a lot of awkwardness. In their study of conversational endings, they found that essentially, we can't read other people's minds about when they would like to end. We're not even really that great at knowing when we would like to end a conversation. And because of this, almost no conversation ends when you want it to. Like, we're just bad at guessing, which is, on one hand sort of depressing, but on the other hand, I think very empowering. So it's saying, like, look, you're going to get it wrong anyway. So as soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Like, just end it. It's okay.

[Mike Carruthers]

What, I'm curious, like, when you are in a conversation with someone, what. What are the things that bother you? If it's not going well, what are the things that really, like, oh, here we go. Oh, no.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

You know what's funny? When I talk to people myself, I truly, honestly have A mindset of, how can I make this good? Like, what power do I have even in the worst of circumstances? Like, it's really. Someone's really struggling, they're really awkward, or they're a wind bag, or they're not very nice, or they're boring. Whatever, whatever the challenge is. I love taking that on as a personal challenge of like, how can I make this interesting? How can I make this productive? How can I make it fun? It's a sort of treasure hunt for me. And the ways that I most commonly do that and try and pursue the adventure of making it good is through question asking. Trying to ask questions that help us together search for better treasure. Like, how can I know that every person out there, even those who seem boring or blustery or not that nice, I know they have something in their mind that I will be so interested to learn about and uncover. And so I like trying to figure that out. I also, I find many people to be sort of too serious and a little boring. And so I, I have a sort of personal mission of, of injecting levity through humor, but also through warmth moves like flattery and just changing the topic to unexpected, unexpected things. My friend calls it breaking the pace. I like to break the pace sometimes.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, when you think about all the conversations we have, most of them are unplanned. They just go as they go. It's fun to take a look at the anatomy of a conversation and why some go really well and some go not so well. And I appreciate you explaining all this. Alison Wood Brooks has been my guest. She is a professor at Harvard Business School and author of the book the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. Thanks, Allison. A good conversation about conversation.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Thank you so much for having me, Mike. I've had such a great time.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you drive enough, sooner or later you will see someone on the side of the road with a blown tire. And you've probably wondered, well, I wonder what causes that. Maybe they hit a nail or a piece of glass or something. Well, the biggest reason for tire blowouts isn't that it's under inflation. When your tires are under inflated, the sidewalls become weak and the tire is more likely to blow out while you're driving, which can be very dangerous. Another big reason tires blow out is over inflation, which can cause your tires to pop like a balloon again with very serious consequences. The best advice is to make sure to check your tire pressure once a month and Follow the inflation recommendations in the car owner's manual, not the inflation number on the side of the tire. That's the maximum pressure that the tire can take, but not necessarily the ideal pressure, and that is something you should know. If you enjoy this podcast, you can share your thoughts by leaving a rating and review on whatever platform you listen on. Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Castbox, whichever one. Please leave a rating and review. Appreciate it. Thanks. I'm micahruthers. Thank you for listening today to something you should know. Ladies and gentlemen, what are you doing? What do you mean? Just keep it simple. I'm making the promo. Just keep it simple. Just say, hey, we're the Brav Bros. Two guys that talk about Bravo. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, we're the Brav Bro. No. Ow. Dude, stop with the voice.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Just keep it simple.

[Mike Carruthers]

I've seen promos on tv, dude. This is how you get the fans engaged. This is how you get listeners. We're trying to get listeners here. If we just say, oh, we're two dudes that talk about Bravo, people are gonna get tired of it already. We need some oomph. All right, then, fine.

[Alison Wood Brooks]

Let's try to do it with your voice.

[Mike Carruthers]

Brav Bros. Good job.

[Laura Cathcart Robbins]

Hi, I'm Laura Cathcart Robbins, and I am the host and creator of the podcast Only One in the Room. Every week, my co host, Scott Slaughter, and I invite you to join us and lose yourself in someone's incredible Only One Story. We talk to real people dealing with issues like infertility, the death of a loved one, human trafficking, and women who fake it. Oh, and we want to be fair, so we talk to celebrities, too. Emmy winners like actor Jon Cryer, supermodels like Amber Valletta, and rock stars like Ryan Dusick. Everyone is invited to share their only one story with our listeners. With 21 seasons and counting, we guarantee you that only one in the room has a story that you'll connect with. This podcast is for anyone who has ever felt alone in a room full of people. Which is to say that this podcast is for everyone. Download. Only One in the room on Apple or Spotify today.