Why We’re Wired to Imitate Others & How to Have a Great Conversation

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why We’re Wired to Imitate Others & How to Have a Great Conversation"

Something You Should Know
Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Episode Title: Why We’re Wired to Imitate Others & How to Have a Great Conversation

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Something You Should Know, host Mike Carruthers delves into two profound aspects of human behavior: our innate tendency to imitate others and the intricate art of having meaningful conversations. Through insightful interviews with experts R. Alexander Bentley and Dr. Allison Wood Brooks, the episode unpacks the biological and social underpinnings of imitation and offers practical strategies to enhance conversational skills.

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Part 1: Why We’re Wired to Imitate Others

Guest: R. Alexander Bentley
Title: Professor and Chair of the Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee
Book: I'll Have What She's Having: Mapping Social Behavior

The Social Nature of Human Decisions

R. Alexander Bentley challenges the century-old assumption that humans are primarily rational beings. Instead, he posits that we are fundamentally social creatures, heavily influenced by the actions and behaviors of those around us.

Bentley [05:25]: "For a hundred years or even more, we've always assumed that humans are fundamentally rational creatures... we are fundamentally social creatures and much of what we do and decide is based on what others around us are doing."

Examples of Imitation in Daily Life

Bentley provides compelling examples of imitation from infancy to adulthood, illustrating how deeply ingrained this behavior is:

• Infant Imitation: Babies mirror facial expressions and actions of their parents almost immediately.
• Language Acquisition: Children effortlessly learn languages by mimicking those around them.
• Consumer Choices: Even adults frequently make decisions based on observing others, such as "I'll have what she's having" in a restaurant.

Bentley [07:06]: "All humans have an innate capacity to learn language very quickly as children. But of course, we each learn a different language from our parents or caregivers right from birth."

Evolutionary Perspectives

Bentley explains that our propensity to imitate is deeply rooted in our evolutionary history, enhancing survival by allowing us to adopt successful behaviors swiftly.

Bentley [11:38]: "We prefer to copy individuals who are high ranking... It’s not just ad hoc, it’s strategic."

Modern Implications

In today’s fast-paced world, the speed of change poses challenges to our imitation behaviors. However, Bentley reassures that our brains are equipped to handle rapid shifts by relying on learned experiences and strategic social learning.

Bentley [19:35]: "Most of human history is a time where change was very gradual... it's really remarkable, I think that humans can handle the amount of change that we experience today."

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Part 2: How to Have a Great Conversation

Guest: Dr. Allison Wood Brooks
Title: Professor of Business Administration and Hellman Faculty Fellow, Harvard Business School
Book: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves

The Complexity of Conversations

Dr. Brooks highlights that conversation is a multifaceted skill, often taken for granted despite its complexity. She emphasizes that effective conversations require continuous learning and adaptation.

Brooks [28:56]: "Conversation is a surprisingly vast ocean of Complexity... We are far from being experts at conversation."

The Pyramid of Conversation

Dr. Brooks introduces the "Conversation Pyramid," a framework that categorizes topics into three levels:

1. Small Talk (Base): Universal topics like weather or weekend plans, serving as an entry point.
2. Medium/Tailored Talk: Personalized topics that encourage self-disclosure and shared interests.
3. Deep Talk (Peak): Meaningful and unique discussions that foster strong connections.

Brooks [38:47]: "At the base of the pyramid is where small talk lives... To your point, Mike, like the... You never know."

The Art of Listening

Effective listening is paramount to a great conversation. Dr. Brooks breaks down listening into three components:

1. Perceiving: Absorbing verbal and non-verbal cues.
2. Processing: Internally reflecting and understanding the information.
3. Expressing: Communicating understanding and engagement back to the speaker.

Brooks [34:52]: "When you're listening, you need to perceive all of this information... and the expression of listening is showing your partner that you've heard them."

Overcoming Conversational Challenges

Ending conversations gracefully and dealing with conversational fatigue are common challenges. Dr. Brooks advises embracing the inevitability of occasional missteps and focusing on continuous improvement.

Brooks [37:05]: "As soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Just end it. It's okay."

Building Genuine Connections

Dr. Brooks encourages moving beyond superficial interactions by seeking deeper connections, even in seemingly trivial conversations. She emphasizes the unpredictability of meaningful relationships emerging from any interaction.

Brooks [46:44]: "You never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more."

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Key Takeaways

1. Imitation as a Survival Mechanism: Our tendency to imitate others is not just a social quirk but an evolutionary strategy that has aided in our survival and cultural development.

2. Strategic Social Learning: We selectively imitate individuals who are deemed successful or authoritative, ensuring that the behaviors we adopt are beneficial.

3. Conversations Require Skill and Effort: Effective communication is a learned skill that involves active listening, strategic topic progression, and the ability to navigate conversational dynamics.

4. Embracing Imperfection: Both imitation and conversation come with their challenges, but understanding their underlying mechanisms can help us navigate them more effectively.

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Notable Quotes

• R. Alexander Bentley [05:25]: "For a hundred years or even more, we've always assumed that humans are fundamentally rational creatures... we are fundamentally social creatures and much of what we do and decide is based on what others around us are doing."

• Dr. Allison Wood Brooks [34:52]: "When you're listening, you need to perceive all of this information... and the expression of listening is showing your partner that you've heard them."

• R. Alexander Bentley [11:38]: "We prefer to copy individuals who are high ranking... It’s not just ad hoc, it’s strategic."

• Dr. Allison Wood Brooks [37:05]: "As soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Just end it. It's okay."

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Conclusion

This episode of Something You Should Know masterfully intertwines the biological instincts that drive us to imitate others with the nuanced skills required to engage in meaningful conversations. By understanding these fundamental aspects of human behavior, listeners can gain valuable insights into their social interactions and enhance their personal and professional relationships.

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Recommended Listening:
To further explore the topics discussed, consider tuning into R. Alexander Bentley's book I'll Have What She's Having and Dr. Allison Wood Brooks's The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Links to these resources are available in the show notes.

Transcript

[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know. Some vegetables actually get healthier when you cook them. I'll tell you which ones then. Why do you do the things you do?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

For 100 years or even more, we've always assumed that humans are fundamentally rational creatures. And one of the arguments that I've been trying to make is that we are fundamentally social creatures, and much of what we do and decide is based on what others around us are doing.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, why? Why is it so quiet after a snowfall? Then the fascinating anatomy of a great conversation. It's probably not what you think.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Even in conversations where you walk away feeling like, oh my gosh, that was great. If you looked back at the transcript, what you would see is we interrupt each other all the time. There's all kinds of moments of misunderstanding, but there are these moments where you say, wow. Oh, that felt really good.

[Mike Carruthers]

All this Today on something you should know.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know, fascinating intel, the.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

World'S top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life today.

[Mike Carruthers]

Something you should know with Mike Carruthers I'll bet you think I bet most people think that eating raw vegetables is healthier than eating cooked vegetables. And while that may be true some of the time, it's not always true. Some vegetables are actually better for you when you cook them. Carrots for example, boiling carrots until they're tender boosts their concentration of carotenoids. It's a cancer fighting compound by 14%. However, frying carrots has the opposite effect. Mushrooms A cup of cooked mushrooms has about twice as much potassium, niacin, zinc and magnesium as than a cup of raw mushrooms. Spinach Spinach is packed with nutrients, but you will absorb more of the calcium and iron if you cook it first. Asparagus One study found that cooking asparagus raises the level of six key nutrients, including antioxidants by 16% and tomatoes whether they are baked, fried or turned into spaghetti sauce. Heat increases the levels of lycopene, which has been linked to lower rates of cancer and heart disease. And that is something you should know. I'm sure you like to think of yourself as an independent person. You do things because you choose to do them. No one's telling you what to do most of the time. Generally you do what you do because it is what you choose to do. Humans have big brains. We think independently. We're wired to blaze our own trail. Well, not always. Here's an example of what I mean. You go into a restaurant with a group of people and the waiter finally gets to you and says, what do you want? And you say, I'll have what she's having. Well, why not get something you want? The fact is, we look to others and we follow their lead a lot more than we think. It's what explains the spread of culture, fashion, language, ideas and behavior. We do what we see other people do. And here to explore this topic and explain why it's important to understand is R. Alexander Bentley. He's a professor and chair of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Tennessee, and he's co author of a book called I'll have what She's Mapping social behavior. Hi Alexander. Welcome to something you should know.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Great to be here, Mike.

[Mike Carruthers]

So before we get too far into the details here, why is this important and what's the big aha here?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

The main thing is that for a hundred years or even more, we've always assumed that humans are fundamentally rational creatures, that they weigh up costs and benefits and then they make a decision based on that. And one of the arguments that I've been trying to make for a couple decades now as an anthropologist is that we are fundamentally social creatures and much of what we do and decide, and even opine, is based on what others around us are doing.

[Mike Carruthers]

And just to make sure I'm on the Same page with you. That I know what you mean by that. Can you give me some examples of how we look at other people and follow what they do?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

The first example is that babies will imitate the facial expressions of their parents right, right away. Children, young children and toddlers will imitate certain tasks to get a little reward, like a treat or something out of a box. They prefer to imitate what they've just seen. Even in a situation where it might be a very complex action that has been demonstrated to them, where a chimpanzee will just figure out how to do it without imitating. Toddlers prefer to imitate rather than the similar, the more simple action. And the most evident example is simply language. We have. All humans have an innate capacity to learn language very quickly as children. But of course, we each learn a different language from our parents or caregivers right from birth.

[Mike Carruthers]

And the example of the title of your book I love because I've always been fascinated by when people say that I'll have what she's having, because there's a whole menu of things you could have. It's so easy to say, well, I'll just have what he's having. And I wonder, well, why not? Why, why do that? Why not get something you really want?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Because that is probably what you want. Everything I say is informed by what I know about human evolution and the way our brains came to. And, you know, one of the things that's important in evolution is of survival, of course. And saying, I'll have what she's having usually works. I can't see you right now, but if I said I'll wear what you're wearing tomorrow to work, it would be fine. If, you know, even if you're thinking about what stock to invest in and if you know somebody who pretty good investor, just say, I'll. I'll buy what she's buying. It works wonders and it saves us an incredible amount of time. We can't all be experts on everything.

[Mike Carruthers]

But I will almost never, just out of principle, I will never have what she is having or he is having just because I don't. There's something about that. It's like too easy. And I want to. So I just. Out of principle, don't do that.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

One of the things to think about is that you're not always copying people in the room at the same time. You're often a lot of the things that you're doing. And maybe I'm bending the definition here, but you're copying people from previous generations. So if you Go to an Italian restaurant, you're copying people within a culinary tradition from previous generations. And as an archaeologist, I know that dietary traditions in different parts of the world survived for thousands of years. So if you think of it that way, am I, I'm not, maybe I'm not copying somebody right here. But what's influencing my decision is this really independent, what I'm deciding here?

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, is anything ever completely independent? It seems like everything is, is shaded a little or a lot by what's come before.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Yeah, it's a tough question. I mean, look around you on the table and the equipment that you're using right now. It's all been generated by science or people learning from the, from previous examples, building, building technology up from what they've learned before. I like to think of it as we have a certain number of innate capacities. So if, if you needed to do something, like maybe cut a rope or something, and you saw some rocks around you, maybe you figure out how to pound out a couple of stone tools or break off a flake of tool and cut that rope. But beyond that, so many of the things that we do or even our ancient ancestors did was learned. And that's the basis for the success of our species. So we have. What is innate is our capacity to do this learning. We're the best in the business at this. We can imitate like no other species on the planet.

[Mike Carruthers]

But our inclination to imitate other people. We don't imitate everybody. There must be a hierarchy of people. There must be. Maybe it's our friends or people that we work with or, you know, our family. There are more people I'm more likely to imitate than others, I suspect.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Yeah, yeah. So there are lots of nuanced details about the way that we copy. And one of the things that humans will do, and chimpanzees will do this as well, and a few other species of monkeys, is we prefer to copy individuals who are high ranking in the ranking system or prestigious or successful. But it's interesting because that's not even specific to our species. Even fish learning, trying to stickleback fish, little fish learning where food is, will actually kind of sit in the vegetation and watch to see which other fish where they're getting their food and whether they were successful or not. So the, the, the point is that the, the copying is not just ad hoc, it's strategic.

[Mike Carruthers]

Here's something that happens and it's not exactly imitating or copying other people's behavior, but I imagine it's part of this same discussion and that is recommendations. If you needed a dentist and you said, hey Mike, I'm new to town, I need a dentist, can you recommend one? And I gave you the name of my dentist. That's probably going to carry a lot of weight with you. You're going to call, probably call that dentist. But the reality is that, you know, I'm no expert on dentists. I don't have a lot of experience with them. And so I don't know, maybe my dentist is a great dentist, maybe he's not. But the fact that I recommended it to you will carry weight with you.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

And we do that right from when we're children, where children are more inclined to copy or learn from others when they're uncertain of something. But think about the fact that if we go back a few centuries and then go way back thousands and thousands of years, we humans and their ancestors lived in small communities and we always, they always knew who the experts were and the experts are always in different topics. So they might be an expert in your village in yam cultivation, might be somebody who knows about fishing and there might be somebody who knows about medicinal plants. In a hunter gatherer society, we always know who those experts are. And so when I come to a new neighborhood, I know this person's an expert on local dentists and I'm going to trust that person. I think that's, that's a pretty deep seated kind of trust that we have in asking other people, particularly when we have some reason to think that they're at least some kind of expert, which is something we don't have online. We have no idea who the experts are online.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[R. Alexander Bentley]

Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, when I go, you know, if I'm going to buy a car, I go and look at all the statistics and metrics and stuff like that online and try to make a decision based on that. And still I might wind up buying something that I just saw on the street not too long ago because you'd be surprised how often what you, when you think you're making an original decision. And I used to notice this about baby names as well. You think you're coming up with something original and you look, you look it up and it's one of the most trending things out there. But when we are uncertain about things, that's where, when we're most likely to make decisions by learning from others. So you gave that great Example of learning directions in a, in a new neighborhood. Children will do this as well. When they're uncertain about something, they're more likely to, to then copy a parent or something. And it was shown years ago that when people are confronted with a complex problem in a psychological experiment, like something looking some kind of obscure facts or, or, or, or some kind of puzzle, if it's a, if it's a difficult problem, they're more likely to look it up on Google and it seems obvious. And if it's an easy problem, they're more likely to just do it themselves. So we, we gauge when to socially learn when versus when to try to, to solve something ourselves.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is looking it up on Google the same as I'll have what she's having?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

That's kind of philosophical. I'm often amazed at how good Wikipedia usually is, and that's because it's moderated to my knowledge by human experts. So. Or if you're a scientist, to what degree are you learning from others? I mean ideally science, science is building on the shoulders of giants. So it's, if you kind of think about it, you can really go deep into it. And that's where I come to the conclusion that almost everything we're doing, we are actually learning from someone else. They just might happen to be in the past.

[Mike Carruthers]

So I wonder how the speed of change influences all you're talking about. And what I mean by that is when I was growing up, I copied a lot of what my father did. I would watch him and then do that. But today there are people doing things that I don't even know what they're doing because it's some new gadget, some new technology, so it's hard to copy it because I don't know what it is that the speed of change is messing with your theory somehow.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

You know, in the 60s they invented that term called future shock. And I think we experience it now. Most of human history is a time where change was very gradual. Something that maybe you wouldn't even think of as every generation it makes you think about our kind of, it's kind of remarkable, I think that humans can handle the amount of change that we experience today, where it's almost intra generation, you know, within a generation, a younger sibling may grow up on different media platforms than an older sibling. It's really insane that we don't all go a little bit crazy.

[Mike Carruthers]

So do you ever say, I'll have what she's having?

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Yeah, I did. So just recently, yes, it's really fun to do and actually you don't even know what the other person's having. I'll just go with that. And so ironically you wind up doing the unique thing by saying I'll have what she's having because you never actually tried it.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I could never do that. I could never do that. But it is interesting to think how much we're influenced by other people when we like to think we're not. Because I think we like to think we're not.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

We do. We love to think we're not. And I remember when our, we had a son who was born in the early 2000s, but before we knew it was going to be a boy, we were thinking of girls names and I thought, oh right, Lily. Lily would be a great name. It's so, it just seems really different and unique. And of course I went to, went and looked it up and it like just, just broke into the top 10. But I, I was trying to pick something that was unique and I couldn't. You just can't escape it. I, maybe you've had this happen to you before where you, you try to say something original or you think you've come up with original joke and then, and then people, people have already heard it.

[Mike Carruthers]

What else do you think people would be interested in hearing about regarding this whole idea that so much of what we do, we copy, we imitate other people.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

There's a little bit more about the, the fundamental nature of this in our brains. So about several hundred thousand years ago, Neanderthals were on the planet. They survived until about 30,000 years ago. But at some point our ancestors, modern humans, evolved a gene which produced a protein which facilitated the development of neurons, as when we develop as babies and children in the neocortex. The neocortex is the part of the brain that handles all of our social relations. Oh, what's she thinking? Our theory of mind. I'm trying to think right now what you're thinking about what I'm saying. That's theory of mind. I'm trying to put myself in your place. All those abilities evolved in us probably after we diverged from Neanderthals, at least in that lineage. The point being, we're so specialized at social learning, social relations, thinking about what others are thinking, doing things collectively, that it's literally in our genes and it's what's made us distinct from even the closest cousins we have in our ancient evolutionary ancestry. So it really is something social learning is really something to think about as absolutely part of us. And once you start thinking about that and about the fact that most of human society was traditional, learning things from previous generations. I think that you can become a lot more comfortable with doing as others do, or I'll have what she's having. And I don't mean conformity. Conformity is something different.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it sounds like conformity.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Conformity is doing something that maybe is even against what you think is. Is correct just because others are. Do it. Doing it. And it does remind me of that classic experiment from the 1950s where you could have. I could walk into a room and several people point at a line on the. On a piece of paper and say, this line is exactly like this other line. When I can see that it's. They're clearly very different lengths. And it was shown in the 1950s that, you know, if. If most of the people are saying that and I walk in, I'll just go with it, even though I know that it's not true. But if just one person out of that group that are, you know, in there, the scientists put them in there, it's all. It's all part of an act. But if, if they do the experiment with just one person says, no, actually that, that those two lines are different lengths, then the person in the experiment would very often have the confidence to say, oh, yeah, yeah, no, it's. That's not true. So it, it takes very little for people to break out of their conformity, but it's still a form of social learning. It still took someone else to kind of break that spell. And now you think, oh, here's an actual expert. Here's somebody who seems to be able to see straight and these other people can't. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna believe what that person said. And that person helps me trust my gut. So even when we're trusting our gut, it can help that social learning can help us do that.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, this is certainly a topic I haven't given a lot of thought to, but it's actually quite fascinating to think how much of what we do, we do by imitating others. R. Alexander Bentley has been my guest. He is professor and chair of the Department of Anthropology at the University of Tennessee. And the name of his book is I'll have what She's Mapping Social Behavior. And there's a link to his book in the show notes. Professor, thanks for coming on.

[R. Alexander Bentley]

Thanks, Mike. This has been fantastic and I loved your questions.

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[Mike Carruthers]

Every day I imagine you have conversations with people. You do it because you have to. No one probably taught you how to have a good conversation. You just do it. And your ability to be good at it will impact your success in all walks of life. Your career, relationships, friendships. People have to like talking to you or feel comfortable talking to you, or feel like they get something out of the conversation. And here to make sure that happens is Dr. Allison Wood Brooks. She's a Professor of Business Administration and Hellman Faculty Fellow at the Harvard Business School, and she is author of a book called the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Hi Alison, welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, as someone who has conversations for a living, I certainly enjoy this topic, and I find it interesting that most of us were never taught about conversation. Still, some people are. They're so good at it, and other people are so not good at it. And I wonder why that is.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Conversation is a surprisingly vast ocean of Complexity. There's a lot going on under the hood for something we learn to do as toddlers and practice doing every day of our lives, every day, all day long, with a huge range of partners. It feels like we get to adulthood and we should be experts. And in truth, we are far from being expert at conversation.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's interesting that as much as we all do it, no one ever said, well, let's talk about how you're doing it. Let's have a class in how to have a conversation. You just do it and kind of learn as you go and do the best you can. But no one ever teaches you the principles of a conversation or how to make it interesting or, you know, I certainly never got that kind of education.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, I think we in a way are learning all the time by watching other people and just sort of bumping and stumbling through life. We have little mini successes and we think, okay, well I'll try that again. Or we have little or big failures and think, oh, well, I guess I won't do that again. And so we're kind of learning through the school of hard knocks as we go through life. But you're right, it's a very wicked feedback environment where we don't get perfect feedback about how we're doing. And we certainly don't often take classes about how to have conversation until now.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, and the other really interesting thing that I don't think is a good thing is because there's so much electronic communication, we have fewer face to face conversations. And so people aren't as good because they don't have the practice. They don't know how to do it.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

That's right. Yeah, we're getting less practice than ever before in human history. And with less practice comes less feedback. And sort of the feedback we do get is even more mysterious and diffuse. I mean, when you're texting someone, you have no idea how your, your messages are landing with them. Right? You're, you can't read their facial expressions. You, you really have no idea if they've even read your message until they respond. So yes, it's, we find ourselves in an even more difficult learning environment about our communication than ever before.

[Mike Carruthers]

So this is probably an unfair question because it's too big. But, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What's a good conversation look like?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

The definition of a good conversation is not up to me as a scientist or as a professor. It's not even up to, to you, Mike. It's determined by the goals of the people participating in the conversation and the goals that people have when they interact with other people are vast. I mean, if you didn't have. We always have at least one goal, even if it's just to have fun or be polite or to uphold the very basic expectation that you're going to respond to another person. Usually people have many more than just one goal. So you kind of hold on to this rich constellation of things. You might want to share a story, you might want to seek someone's advice. You might want to have a great time. You might want to give them a compliment. You want to persuade them to agree with your view on a certain issue. And also, you need to leave in five minutes. So we all hold these very many goals at the same time. And the person you're talking to has their own constellation of goals that they hold on to. And so the. The definition of success in any given conversation depends on achieving at least some subset of those goals. And achieving those goals is harder than it first appears.

[Mike Carruthers]

I remember hearing somebody say something about Bill Clinton, that he is a great conversationalist, because when you talk to him, you feel like you're the only person in the world that he makes you so the focus of his existence for the few minutes he's talking to you, that everybody walks away from a conversation with him feeling terrific. And we've all had those people. You talk to them and you walk away. You feel better about yourself, you feel smarter, you feel. You just feel terrific. And then the other side of that is you walk away from some conversations and feel horrible.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I've heard that about Bill Clinton as well. There are people in the world who have developed conversation as a skill. And it's very easy to look at someone like Bill Clinton and think, boy, he was. He is gifted. He is a gifted natural conversationalist. He has this charisma. He's really good at connecting with people. And maybe it's effortless for him. And when you look at someone like Bill Clinton, who just seems charismatic and so good at connecting with people, such a great listener, it kind of makes you. Can make you feel bad about yourself. Like, what am I not doing right here? What is this thing that he's so good at, which I call the myth of naturalness. Even for someone like Bill Clinton, what you can't see are all the many experiences that he's had in his life that led him to this place where he became such a good communicator. And you can't see all of the effort that he's putting in to every conversation to make sure that his partners are feeling so understood and loved and listened to and charmed, Delighted. Also, when people describe Bill Clinton in particular, I suspect what he's quite good at is listening. And listening is one of the most important skills in conversation overall. And it's much more complicated than it first appears.

[Mike Carruthers]

So let's talk about that then. What does it mean in a conversation? What does it mean to listen?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Well, so I think as humans, we tend to fixate on talking, thinking about, well, when am I going to speak up and what am I going to say? What am I going to disclose? What should I ask this person? When in fact, I think perhaps the more important part of the equation is listening. Focusing on your partner and working really hard to listen to their words, but also to their non verbal cues, their gestures, their facial expressions. Expressions. When we study listening as behavioral scientists, we think of it as all of the information that's coming at you visually and through your ears. The audio, right? And so that's the person and how they're moving, what they look like, the sound of their voice, the meaning of their words, and also the environment all around you, sort of reading the room. All of this is required when you're, when you're listening. So perhaps it's no surprise that listening is incredibly effortful. You need to be perceiving all of this information and then in your mind you elaborate and think more deeply about some of it. We can't really take it all in and think about all of it. And the third step of listening that's so unique to conversation is the expression of listening. It's not that you just hear and see things and then think about it. You can actually say and show your partner that you've heard them. So Michael, just now you've made a really great distinction between talking and listening. The only way I can say that back to you is because I heard you say it in the first place. I'm thinking about this distinction very carefully. I'm compelled by it. And now I have the ability to repeat it back to you and affirm the distinction and say, hey, I'm willing to go there with you. Let's do this together.

[Mike Carruthers]

So one of the tricky parts of conversation seems to be ending it, Especially if it's not going well, or you get one of those people who answers with one word answers and you find yourself in a conversation that's going nowhere. What do you do?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yes, there is fantastic research on conversational endings by behavioral scientists Adam Masriani and Gus Cooney. The end of a conversation. If we think of a conversation as the series of coordinated decisions between two people, the end of the conversation is the last coordination decision. It's saying, okay, the next topic we're going to choose is silence, and we're going to walk away from each other and it's over. And so even though we're. That begins at the very start of, like, where. What are we going to talk about now and now and now and now and then we get to the end and somebody has. Has the power to end it. So just like every other coordination choice, this ending decision is surprisingly difficult and causes a lot of awkwardness. In their study of conversational endings, they found that essentially we can't read other people's minds about when they would like to end. We're not even really that great at knowing when we would like to end a conversation. So self awareness and sort of other awareness. And because of this, almost no conversation ends when you want it to. Like, we're just bad at guessing, which is, on one hand it can sort of depressing, on the other hand, I think very empowering. So it's saying, like, look, you're going to get it wrong anyway. So as soon as you start to feel like a conversation is running out of juice, just leave. Like, just end it. It's okay. The bigger risk is actually stagnating and lingering and staying too long and you part ways and your partner thinks that you're sort of boring and uninteresting. So I think that the takeaway from this research is just leave what I'm.

[Mike Carruthers]

Curious, like, when you are in a conversation with someone, what. What are the things that bother you if it's not going well, what are the things that really, like, oh, here we go. Oh, no.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

You know, it's funny, when I talk to people myself, I truly, honestly have a mindset of how can I make this good? Like, what power do I have even in the worst of circumstances? Like, it's really, someone's really struggling, they're really awkward, or they're a wind bag, or they're not very nice, or they're boring. Whatever, whatever the challenge is. I love taking that on as a personal challenge of like, how can I make this interesting? How can I make this productive? How can I make it fun? It's a sort of treasure hunt for me. And the ways that I most commonly do that and try and pursue the adventure of making it good is through question asking. A lot of the time trying to ask questions that help us together, search for Better treasure. Like, how can I know that every person out there, even those who seem boring or blustery or not that nice, I know they have something in their mind that I will be so interested to learn about and, and uncover. And so I like trying to figure that out. It requires giving other people the benefit of the doubt. It requires pushing yourself relentlessly to not be overly judgmental of people, especially when they, you find them unlikable or, you know, annoying. I also, I find many people to be sort of too serious and a little boring. And so I have a sort of personal mission of, of injecting levity through humor, but also through warmth moves like flattery and just changing the topic to unexpected, unexpected things. My friend calls it breaking the pace. I like to break the pace.

[Mike Carruthers]

Sometimes I like that. Yeah, that's a great idea that brings up, and this is probably my own failing, but I realize that most of the conversations, like if I'm at a party or something, I mean, I'm never going to see this person again. I'm never going to remember what they said. It's like, why make the effort? I mean, not always, but I mean, sometimes you get worn out of small. This is all small talky kind of stuff. And it's, you know, I much more enjoy conversations like this where we have a very specific topic that we're talking about. And I can try to ask good questions and listen to your answers. But if I'm just meeting you at a party, it's going to be, how are you? What do you do? And those kind of conversations are fairly forgettable. And so why put the effort in?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

So I want to push you on this, all right? You never know what you could uncover, even in a seemingly sort of shallow context or a shallow conversation. You never know when you're going to see someone again. You never know if you could uncover something in that conversation that would inspire you to see them again. So even in the unlikeliest of circumstances, I just want to push you and everyone to consider the idea that maybe it doesn't have to be as shallow as it first appears. I teach about this in my course at Harvard. There's this topic pyramid with three levels. At the base of the pyramid. This is where small talk lives. This is topics you could talk about with anybody, let's say at a dinner party or a cocktail party. The traffic, the weather, the weekend, the holidays, whatever stuff you can talk about with anyone. The problem isn't with small talk in general. In fact, it's a very important social ritual that helps Us initiate conversations, get reacquainted with people we don't know well, or reacquaint ourselves with people we haven't seen in a while. The mistake that most people make, particularly at a cocktail party or maybe a networking event or really anywhere, is they stay too long at the base of the pyramid. So you need to think of small talk as a, as a place to be searching for something more meaningful, for looking for doorknobs to go through doors to more meaningful rooms of the conversation. And if you find them, you can move into the second tier of the pyramid, which is medium or tailored talk. And the way to get there is to get more personalized. And this might look like asking questions that trigger self disclosure from your partner. It might mean sharing something personal, maybe something joyful or painful about your own life, or it could not be about disclosure at all, but just trying to find topics that are exciting to both of you. Sort of chasing the energy to find topics where they're an expert or they have some interest or just positive energy in general. So chase the energy to launch away from small talk at the very top of the pyramid is deep talk. This is a meaningful topic that maybe only you two people could talk about at a specific moment in time. The conversation we're having right now feels like we're getting there, right? Like we're there because we have this substantive topic to talk about. You have this expertise. We're getting to know each other. We're sort of hovering over deep talk. And having a substantive collaboration and work to work on together can help you get there. And we're sort of all navigating this topic pyramid all the time. Not every conversation is bound for the peak of the pyramid. It would be annoying if someone is always trying to have these sort of deep, meaningful conversations with everybody. You don't need to have a deep conversation with the barista at Starbucks. But you could maybe give them a compliment or ask about their kid, right? If it's the same person you're seeing every day and get into that medium second tier of the pyramid. But I do want to push you and everyone on this idea of like, it doesn't have to be shallow. And you never know when something that seems like a small talk conversation could become something more.

[Mike Carruthers]

Yeah, I know, you're right. I think it's more weariness. Like when you're at a networking event or something and you've had 10 or 12 of those shallow conversations, you just kind of run out of gas. It's like, I'm done I'll try again tomorrow, but enough's enough.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Yeah. Or not. Maybe take a rest. Don't talk to anybody tomorrow. Yeah. Exhaustion is real. So I think all of this stuff, thinking about how to have great conversations, how to really connect with people. One thing that has become clear through our research is it does require a tremendous amount of energy and effort. You even just listening, your mind is wandering 24% of the time, even when you're trying to listen attentively. So to be a good listener, like Bill Clinton or like you, it takes a lot of energy, a lot of focus, and we're not always prepared. We don't always have that energy. So I think giving yourself grace about that and giving others grace about sort of social and conversational fatigue is also really important. Particularly in this world where we're constantly toggling between text threads and emails and phone calls and zoom calls and in person conversations. We're sort of having more conversation across all different modes of communication than ever before in human history. So the fatigue, the drain on our energy that comes from that is very, very real and should be taken seriously.

[Mike Carruthers]

Lastly, I want to ask you about. You just used the word connect with someone, and everyone's connected with someone, and you sort of know what that feels like. But. But what does it mean to connect with someone? And do you think that because I feel like I've connected with someone, how likely is it that they feel the same way?

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

What a lovely question. I sometimes think of conversation as this sort of journey that you're going on, a sort of relentless search process where you're searching for deep, meaningful moments where you get to the peak of that topic pyramid where you feel like, oh, we did it. We got. We did the thing where we feel really close and connected and like, I trust you. And we. We talked about a thing that was. Felt really good. We felt connected. I don't think we can expect that all the time. And even in conversations where you walk away feeling like, oh my gosh, that was great, if you looked back at the transcript, what you would see is kind of like a train wreck. Like it would. We interrupt each other all the time. There's all kinds of moments of misunderstanding. There's. We say things that we probably shouldn't. We for to say things that we should. But there are these moments where you come together and say, wow, like, oh, that felt really good. And likely, if you're feeling that way, it's likely that the other person is as well. But to your point, Mike, like the. You never know. We really cannot read the minds of other people. The most direct way to understand what is in someone else's head and how they felt like the conversation went is to ask them directly. Questions are the most direct pathway to learning about someone else's mind.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I enjoy having a conversation about conversation because it's something we all do every day, and yet we don't talk about doing it. We just do it. But today we talked about doing it while we were doing it. I've been talking to Dr. Allison Wood Brooks, who is a Professor of Business Administration at the Harvard Business School, and she's author of the book the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. If you'd like to read it, there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. And Alison, thank you so much.

[Dr. Allison Wood Brooks]

Thank you so much for having me, Mike. I've had such a great time.

[Mike Carruthers]

One of the things I really appreciate about snowfall is how quiet it is afterwards. Why is that? Why is it so quiet? Well, partly because fewer people are out doing things because of the weather. But there's more to it. It's the arrangement of the snowflakes. As the snow falls, it piles up loosely with a lot of air spaces in between, and those air spaces absorb the sound in much the same way as holes in an acoustic ceiling tile do. As sound travels across a layer of fluffy snow, the pressure of the sound waves pushes air down into those spaces between the snowflakes so the sound waves lose more and more pressure. So by the time the sound reaches your ears, you hear a softer, more muffled sound, or maybe no sound at all. Experiments show that a loud bang, like a firecracker in the summer, makes a quiet hump noise in a winter landscape covered with new snow because of the effects that I just described. And that is something you should know. If you enjoyed this podcast, you can show your support by leaving a five star rating and review on whatever podcast platform you listen on. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, they all offer the ability to leave a rating and review and it would be greatly appreciated it. I'm micahruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know. A while back we had Ramit Sethi on as a guest and he's one of the smartest people you'll ever know when it comes to everyday money matters. And he was here talking about money and couples. As it turns out, he has his own podcast called Money for Couples, which if you're part of a couple, then I highly recommend you listen to this podcast because when you do, instead of fighting about money, you and your partner will discover how to start building a rich life together. Money for Couples is a podcast full of real life actionable advice like how to pay off your debt and still enjoy your life, how to build a shared financial vision, how to spend extravagantly on what you love and cut back on what you don't. And you'll learn from real world stories of couples facing the same money challenges as you. All of the episodes are helpful, but if I had to pick one or two, there's one called we make $300,000 a year but spend Like We Make a million. That's a situation I think a lot of people can relate to. And another is called We've saved for Retirement but have no Money to Spend now. Money for Couples is the name of the podcast hosted by Ramit Sethi. And all you have to do is search for Money for Couples wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

[Paul Scheer]

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League, Veep, or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

[Amy Nicholson]

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

[Mike Carruthers]

I don't he's too old.

[Amy Nicholson]

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

[Paul Scheer]

It is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

[Paul Scheer]

Must sees, and in case you missed.

[Amy Nicholson]

Ems, we're talking the Home Alone From.

[Paul Scheer]

Grease to the Dark Knight.

[Amy Nicholson]

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks, we've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look, and we've talked about.

[Paul Scheer]

Horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, a ganja and heck.

[Amy Nicholson]

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

[Paul Scheer]

Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your.

[Amy Nicholson]

Podcasts, and don't forget to hit the follow button.