Mike Carruthers (5:26)

Oh, thank you for having me. I'm very excited.

Kate Hardcastle (5:29)

Most of us, I think, believe that we're pretty savvy shoppers that yes, we know retailers use psychology and strategy to get us to buy things but. But we're wise to their ways and we're smart shoppers who buy what we need and want and we are in control.

Mike Carruthers (5:48)

I think you're absolutely right and I think that's why it is all the more fascinating for someone like me that studies how we shop and how we think we shop versus the reality of it. That makes the work I do more interesting, but certainly that the techniques that retailers are using even more savvier because they have more data on and the way we create our shopping habits and use that to great success in being able to manipulate too strong a word but certainly create more attraction to things they know really work for us. So let me give you a quick example. You're booking a flight or maybe some concert tickets and suddenly you see a timing countdown or maybe the words only a few left that will still make you think you're a savvy shopper for getting that bargain at that time rather than stepping away completely and thinking that's a sales technique. Do I really need to do this? Is this the right purchase for me? So we reward ourselves as being savvier shoppers because we have got a greater saving or we have managed to get that ticket in time rather than understanding our psychological drivers, which vary massively individual to individual, on why we shop in in the first place for non essential items.

Kate Hardcastle (7:12)

Why do we shop in the first place for non essential items?

Mike Carruthers (7:15)

I think for a lot of us it makes us feel good or it makes us feel like we've achieved something, the success rate. So we have hundreds and hundreds of surveys to go out. When I started out in business, research was pretty damn expensive and not something we could all afford. Whereas now we can monitor, particularly online and in social shopping, the way that we pattern the way that we gravitate towards goods really quickly.

Kate Hardcastle (7:42)

Well, a strategy I know that online retailers use that that has worked on me and probably everybody else is that you know when you're browsing and you'll look at something and you'll go oh, that's interesting. And it's really something you don't need. You don't even know if you really want it but you've looked at it and now the retailer knows you've looked at it and when you don't buy it you start getting these notifications about oh, remember that thing that you looked at that you've probably forgotten about and you go oh yeah, that was kind of cool. And you go back and look it again and you end up buying it. And yet if you had seen that thing in a store and thought, oh, that's kind of cool, and walked away, you wouldn't be notified later, hey, don't forget that thing you looked at. And so you don't buy it.

Mike Carruthers (8:29)

And that's the psychology of retailers using new techniques to be able to remind you of that purchase and us being susceptible to that, because satisfaction might come from that pair of shoes, that dress, that new suitcase that's going to make life so much better. And there's all kinds of research that not only supports this, but talks about different themes within that. It might be that we shop to make ourselves feel better. It might be that we shop because we want to have a status item that looks good, a new car, a new briefcase, something that has a certain designer name. It could be that we love the frenzy of discounts and bargains and coupon codes. So different things appeal to us. But we rarely go back to square one and think, actually, if I can understand how retailers are sensitizing things to me, making things feel more appealing to me, I can combat all of this and actually sort of work like a retailer rather than work as just a vulnerable consumer.

Kate Hardcastle (9:33)

So how deliberate is this? Are we really being targeted or. Because using your example, if you buy concert tickets online and it says there's only six left, the retailer will tell you, well, we're just providing information so the customer understands that the supply is limited and we're doing them a favor. One might also think that you're manipulating the customer into the scarcity principle, that there's only a few left. You better hurry. Now who's right?

Mike Carruthers (10:04)

Well, you're exactly right on both points. The retailers exist because we want to buy from them as consumers. But at the same time, those techniques that maybe just send us to the point of purchase, maybe send us to the point of purchase of something we don't actually want, we're just browsing. Those things are heavily triggered to get us over the line. And that's what success looks like for those businesses. I don't think it's unfair as much as it is a sophisticated set of techniques that really do appeal to us in a much deeper way than I think many of us think about. I think generally we tend to understand that we're shopping, we're in control. It's our credit card details, after all. And therefore we're the ones that are driving the car.

Kate Hardcastle (10:51)

And I, and I bet everyone else has wondered And I doubt you know the answer because I don't know if anybody knows the answer. But when I see something that says there's only six left, I wonder if that's true.

Mike Carruthers (11:06)

I don't feel that we'll have any retailer admit that's not the situation, but I guess we could easily ask, well, six of what? Six of that particular area of a stadium, six of that particular flight at that price. What's the detail of this? Because we tend to shop in headlines, we don't tend to shop in the small print. And I think that's one of the biggest learnings we can take.

Kate Hardcastle (11:31)

Is it fair to assume that when you walk into a store or you go on a website that they are trying to manipulate you? Maybe manipulate's a strong word. They're trying to influence you to buy, to buy something, to buy more of something, and you are being bombarded by the psychology of it all. Is it fair to assume that?

Mike Carruthers (11:56)

I think that's really fair. It's actually the case. And it's not just happening in stores, it's happening online. And as we become more adapt to the E commerce channel and the social shopping channels, we're probably going to find the interruptions even more fluid and harder to spot. So I think at least the kind of fair game of being in a store is, you know, you're there and you really aware those offers might be incoming. But sometimes the sophistication that we see in the sales tax techniques through E commerce and social media, shopping, TV shopping, et cetera, it feels so personable, it feels so real and in the moment we don't even realize sometimes it's happening.

Kate Hardcastle (12:37)

Yeah, well, I mean, it's in one way kind of nice when it says, well, you might also like these. But then I think, well, yeah, oh, I might like that, but you're selling me and I don't like that.

Mike Carruthers (12:50)

I think actually one of the interesting things from all of the research I look at very regularly across all territories and all age groups is many of us still really enjoy the human touch. So in real life, stores still have purpose in place, even though there's quicker and speedier old alternatives, because we like the camaraderie, we like being around people and engaging, particularly with expertise when we need it. So it's just about the fact that because we don't have to shop in real life, that stores have to be almost better, really, than they were before. It cannot be a case of just open the doors and hope the punters come. You've really got to make sure that the offers are curated, there's value. And that's why we've seen a rise in experience shopping and things to do in the shopping environment rather than just get in and get your purchase.

Kate Hardcastle (13:41)

Things like what? What does that mean, experience shopping?

Mike Carruthers (13:45)

Yeah, it's a very wide term for something that we're seeing growing at phenomenal speed. But experience shopping could just be sights and sounds when it's a grocery store's aisle getting ready for Halloween. And it might be that it's got some theatrics to it, it might be that it's got some light up lights or some sounds or a particular soundtrack that makes it nostalgic and just be as simple as the smell of the baker's bread enticing you into the store.

Kate Hardcastle (14:15)

So what about brand loyalty? I've heard that it's taken a hit that people are becoming a little more price conscious and less brand loyal. Is that fair?

Mike Carruthers (14:25)

It is fair to say that brand loyalty certainly in a lot of categories around, for instance fast moving consumer goods grocery, where you would normally see those aisle packed tight with brands that we know and love. And the nostalgia has seen some shift over recent years and we've seen people a lot of the time again. So the driving force for that might have been the cost of living and the fact that budgets have become tighter and tighter and food costs have really rocketed. Have had to look at their essentials and then work out where are the nice to haves, where can they afford them? And if that brand has been so much more than the store owned brand. People have been giving store owned brands a try or indeed in some cases going without. Brand loyalty as well when it comes to fashion and other categories has seen evolvement. Some of that is down to price and people really doing their research. But there's so many other things under the bonnet when you dig deep. Some of it's to do with the fact that it's a lot easier for brands to enter marketplaces now, particularly when traditional retail, when I started my career, if you were a brand wanting to be on the shelves of some of their products, big names in retail, it would be a massive journey. It would be very unlikely as a new fresh brand you'd get the chance to appear there unless you had a really great in, in some way. But social media, particularly in social media shopping has enabled us as consumers to be reached much more economically by startup brands and newer fresher brands. And that's causing certainly movement away from particular brands where we might be more experimental. The more we experiment and it works for us. The more we look at reviews or platforms that are big shopping sites that allow us to discover new brand, it's making us rethink a lot of our purchases. Yet that said, there are still some brands that are enjoying the fact that they invest in what their brand means. They have a true north with what that respect and values piece is, and still they have loyal customers that enjoy shopping with them.

Kate Hardcastle (16:26)

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Narrator (18:18)

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Kate Hardcastle (18:47)

So Kate, what is happening to the shopping mall? I've seen pictures and videos of so many malls that have just gone out of business. There's just empty. And then other malls, I mean there's one near me that it's packed all the time. I mean all the time it's packed. So why are some malls struggling and other malls flourishing?

Mike Carruthers (19:10)

Isn't it crazy to think that the traditional mall could be in any situation where it might suffer or indeed be in a case where it's reinventing itself when you probably thought 20 years ago you'd seen all you possibly could see. I remember my first visits to America that 20, 30 years ago. And also the United Arab Emirates, the UAE, where shopping malls just took on a different life entirely. There'd be almost small villages in there with fountains and hotels and experiences. I'd never seen connected shopping before. It's true to say that some environments just haven't moved with the times. But it's not as simple as that. Sometimes geography just changes. There might be a shopping mall that's really on a good commuter route, it's a good connector, it's opening hours, just work. Or there might be some businesses that have opened up and have their head offices there and a lot of staff workers use that mall because of the ease of use. It might be the brands that gravitate towards there that really we find are trendy and, and things we want to go and experience. And a of it depends on the retail you have in those malls because as I mentioned at the beginning you don't need to shop. So if it's a want to, are there brands you actually want to shop in? But for me I think it's that association of experience again. Is there good food and beverage outlets at the small near you? I'm probably guessing there are. And ease of parking. Those things really matter. When we start to think about our route and and how we might select a place to be when it comes to shopping mall.

Kate Hardcastle (20:40)

But also the mall that I'm talking about near me has a lot of things in it that are not shopping. They have movie theaters, they have a bowling alley, they have other things. They also have really high end or you know, well established anchor stores like Macy's and Nordstrom. But they have things that have nothing to do with shopping.

Mike Carruthers (21:03)

That's what the future is going to look like to me. The future of shopping, particularly in real life has got to be one where we do relate to the human side of what we're not getting from technology. I treat it as a very large pendulum swing. The more tech offers, the more sophisticated it gets, the more Our human side wants to reconnect to find hobbies and interests that are very tactile and emotional. And I think this is where in real life retail really can serve a purpose. It can connect us with humanity again. So I watched in a shopping mall recently, a lot of young people pile out of one of these escape room games that was situated in the mall and then walk straight across to their favorite restaurant and enjoy some time together. Now the idea of doing puzzles in real life together with your friends and then going and having a meal just seems almost like not what we'd probably imagine in those back to the future days of trying to working out what it all might look like. But it's really important that we celebrate and have that opportunity to gravitate towards it. And I think it's a key ingredient for the success of a lot of moles. We see that being the case, not every mall that's tried to reinvent itself in that way has been successful. And there is a real understanding that as we see a proportion shift of retail to E commerce, to social shopping, we won't see some of that come back. It will always be that way.

Kate Hardcastle (22:30)

And there are just some people. I mean, I like going grocery shopping. I have no idea why, but the idea of having my groceries delivered has no appeal to me. Even though I go and I get frustrated, oh, they're out of bananas or what. But I like the experience of going even though I could not explain it to you at all.

Mike Carruthers (22:56)

I love that you say that you love grocery shopping. I do too. And I can certainly tell you what I know of me. And I've tracked myself around supermarkets and other people that shop like me. Firstly, I've had some really bad experiences with having food delivered. And the produce just hasn't been the produce I would have picked for myself. It's put me off. So I want to go and be the best curator of good for myself. The other is, even though I find it easy to navigate prices and discounts online, it can feel a bit complicated and overwhelming. I'm actually quite a good shopper in that I stick to my shopping list and I'll only deviate now and again and really when I'm comfortable of the budget to do so. So I don't get trapped into any offers. And therefore I think I'm a pretty good judge of myself, going around and making sure the basket doesn't get over full. But most of all, I actually enjoy that space. I enjoy the pain for it at the till. I feel I've earned That and I enjoy that moment. I actually enjoy going to a checkout rather than a self checkout because I enjoy a bit of a chat. So there are just things that I prefer out of that experience. And I've got to say, as I get a little older, even though I write the list, there's always something I've forgotten and if I see it in the supermarket, the grocery store, it will prompt me and that always saves me me some time.

Kate Hardcastle (24:10)

Talk about some of the ways online retailers influence people and we've heard of some of them, algorithms and other things, but explain maybe a little more of what that's about.

Mike Carruthers (24:22)

They're definitely using a lot of the patterning, a lot of the algorithms to help understand how we shop, what we're interested in and what might be a great time for us to buy. Even down to the point where have we made other purchases at a certain time of night, that's our relaxation time. Then they know that's when we shop and that's when we enjoy buying those items. For me, I think one of the most challenging things is online. It tends to sometimes be a little less considered. We're a little hastier about it because it's so easy because our car details can sometimes always be set up in our phone and we can always click through so simply. And that's where retailers have since spent so much money making that very, very easy to do, that we've kind of made the purchase before we've thought about it. So one of the things, as a tip that I did, I removed all of my card details from my phone. And yes, it is very challenging and long winded sometimes, but at least in that time out I'm giving myself an ice bath to make sure I really do want what I'm buying.

Kate Hardcastle (25:25)

That's a great idea, but nobody's going to want to do that because you've made it too hard. It would be nice if there was something kind of in the middle, like you've got to do a few extra steps, but to go through that whole thing again, I don't think I'm going to do that.

Mike Carruthers (25:41)

But the first time you ever bought anything online you did. And that's the way I look at it. Look, there's horses for causes, so we absolutely know different techniques work. One of the things I think is absolutely fundamental though, when we're taught to shop smarter or shop better, that association is always with finding the lowest price. We're never really taught why we're susceptible to these cues. Why do we shop the way we do what to look out for and how to kind of be aware of how retailers do it so we can at least be on the same level and play the same game. And for me, I think even if you understand some of what's going on, that's a much healthier place to be because everyone's always going to tell you it's all rosy in the garden, everything's fabulous. And of course, this is the best price mic for you right now. But you are going to be the best person to tell you and support you on that. And I think it's not buyer beware, but buyer be understanding, buyer have some knowledge, and buyer just feel a little bit more confident when you're out there feeling you're in control of every purchase.

Kate Hardcastle (26:47)

Well, you know, my wife does this. She'll buy something because it was on, because it was on sale. And, you know, I'll need these shoes someday. I mean, my other shoes will wear out and I'll need them someday. And look how much I saved. And I say, yeah, but look how much you spent. But that's two ways of looking at the same thing. I see that as a purchase. She sees this as a savings.

Mike Carruthers (27:15)

Right. And I think maybe we could spend a little bit of time really understanding that there will be joy that she gets from that purchase. I'm certain, even if it's a practical item. And of course, there's joy for all of us thinking that we've done the right thing for our household. We've saved a bit of cash. But if you're buying something to sit on a shelf for when you might need it in a few months time, just try and think about that as a set of dollars sat there instead. What else could you be doing with that money in this time? Did you even need to spend it right now? Or could it have waited? Because I can pretty much guarantee you sat here, there's always going to be a discount, there's always going to be a sale, and we'll never run out of shoes. So I think you'd be good to wait if you didn't really need it and maybe direct those dollars somewhere else.

Kate Hardcastle (28:02)

There's always going to be a sale and we'll never run out of shoes. That's some great advice, and I think you've helped everybody understand the whole shopping world a lot better. I've been speaking with Kate Hardcastle. She's author of a book called the Science of How Psychology and Innovation Create a Winning Retail Strategy. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. It was great having you here, Kate. Thank you.

Mike Carruthers (28:27)

Thanks, Mike. It's been an absolute pleasure. Happy shopping.

Narrator (28:31)

Close your eyes.

Kate Hardcastle (28:32)

Exhale.

Amy Schoenthal (28:33)

Feel your body relax and let go.

Kate Hardcastle (28:35)

Of whatever you're carrying today.

Mike Carruthers (28:38)

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Amy Schoenthal (28:41)

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Mike Carruthers (28:50)

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Amy Schoenthal (28:53)

Oh, sorry.

Mike Carruthers (28:54)

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Kate Hardcastle (29:34)

Life is full of setbacks. There is no one trying to move forward in life who doesn't get knocked back now and again. Setbacks have a way of showing up throughout your entire lifetime. And it seems pretty clear that how we deal with setbacks has a lot to do with our success in business, in life, and in love. Here with some insight into this, as well as some excellent advice on handling setbacks, is Amy Schoenthal. She's a journalist and marketing executive and has researched and written a book about this called the Setback How Defining Moments Can Move Us Forward. Hi, Amy. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

Amy Schoenthal (30:15)

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Kate Hardcastle (30:17)

What do you let's define what a setback is, because I guess it might mean different things to tiff. I certainly have a sense of what it means. I've certainly had many in my life. But what, in your view, is what is a setback?

Amy Schoenthal (30:30)

The dictionary definition of a setback is a reversal in progress. And so the way I like to explain it to people is picture yourself on a path, moving forward, working towards something, and then you are unexpectedly bumped backwards.

Kate Hardcastle (30:49)

Well, when you said that definition, I just flashed in my mind like, so you're trying to lose weight and the scale keeps going down, and then one day it starts going back up. Yep, that's a setback. It is.

Amy Schoenthal (31:01)

It's a setback for sure. There's a lot of physical setbacks. Athletic, sports, Sports Setbacks with injuries, health setbacks, of course. That's. That's a great example.

Kate Hardcastle (31:12)

And so why are they worth shining a light on? It seems like setbacks are just something like, you get up, dust off, and try to get back on the horse. But let's not sit and dwell on our setbacks.

Amy Schoenthal (31:26)

We can dwell on them for a period of time. That's. That's phase two of the setback cycle. But. But the reason I encourage people to understand the science behind setbacks is because when you're in one, it feels horrible, and you feel like you're just sort of trying to claw your way out of it with no guidance and no support, really. No. No real productive support. And in my years of interviewing founders and leaders and all kinds of really prominent people who had gotten through incredibly difficult setbacks, I noticed that there was this pattern that I kept seeing where they went through the setback. And that's the thing that led them to their really great discovery, that led them to build the business that, you know, they got a lot of accolades for, was really successful, and solved a lot of problems. And so I started noticing that setbacks really breed creativity and innovation, and that's what sent me on the path to really dig into why that happened.

Kate Hardcastle (32:27)

So I want to hear what the setback cycle is.

Amy Schoenthal (32:31)

Sure. The setback cycle is four phases. So phase one is establish, which sounds like it should be obvious. You know, we think that when we enter a setback, it's really obvious. You know, you get laid off, as you said, the number on the scale starts going up. You, you know, you have an injury. And those are all setbacks. They really are. Those are the really obvious, sometimes dramatic, clear setbacks. But there are a lot of other setbacks that we don't realize we're walking into, and they're much, much, much more subtle, especially when it comes to our careers. You know, a lot of us, we stay at a job even though we're not really doing that well at it anymore. Maybe we're coasting, we're not learning anything. We're not really using our brains as much. We're kind of on autopilot. Think of relationships. Think of all the things you do that you look back on and you say, wow, why didn't I get out of that sooner? That's us sort of sleepwalking into a setback. Phase two of the setback cycle is embrace. And that's the phase where, like I said, you do kind of have to sit in it and really learn from it and understand what insights you can glean, be a little self reflective. But it's really a delicate balance in the embrace phase because you don't want to wallow, you don't want to get too down on yourself, you don't want to get into a really bad spiral of shame, you don't want to get into a spiral of resentment where you're just like mad at everyone and blaming others for your situation. And so embrace is a really important but really tricky and sort of delicate phase. It's what paves the way for you to move to the third phase of the setback cycle, which is a explore. And the explore phase is great because this is when you're starting to make your way out of the setback cycle and you start testing out new ideas. Remember, you've been bumped backward on that path. You need to find a new path forward. You need to figure out what you're going to do next, what action you're going to take. And the best way to do that is by testing out all kinds of ideas and talking to friends and family and people in your support network, people in your community. This is where you can start to play and have some fun and get creative as you figure out your path forward. And then phase four, the final phase of the setback cycle is emerge. And that's your phoenix moment, when you know what you're going to do and you know how you're going to move forward.

Kate Hardcastle (34:58)

So you had said a moment ago that in looking at this, you found that setbacks can be kind of this defining moment where creative solutions show up. And I wonder why that is. My sense is that that's because oftentimes setbacks put you in a position where you gotta do something. I mean, it's like do or die. It's, you know, necessity is the mother of invention kind of moment.

Amy Schoenthal (35:24)

That's exactly it. That's exactly it. So the neuroscience proves that people who have encountered more setbacks are actually better at problem solving and reasoning and course correcting if they find that they're on the wrong path path because they recognize the signs and they know how to, you know, get off that wrong path more easily and they're less afraid of change. And I think that really articulates why setbacks can be this defining moment of transformation. Because when you think of the creativity that you have to use and the innovation that comes out of a moment where there's nowhere else to go but up, right? Necessity being the mother of invention, you are going to come up with your best ideas in the aftermath of a setback, when things are going well, right on the other end of the spectrum, when things are going well, that's when you're more likely to coast and get comfortable and kind of phone it in and not be as creative and not invent new ways of doing things. Because if what's working is working, why would you mess with it?

Kate Hardcastle (36:27)

You know what it reminds me of, as you were explaining that is when you watch a football game or a hockey game or a basketball game, and the game's almost over and the team that's losing, there's a chance they could win, very often the level and intensity of the play changes. It gets so intense, and they play so much better and harder because their back's against the wall. And it kind of reminds me of what you just said. In life situations, it's that same. And if they had played this way 20 minutes ago, they might not be in this position, but here they are, and all of a sudden the gloves come off. And sometimes they win, sometimes they don't, but sometimes they do.

Amy Schoenthal (37:17)

Yeah, for sure. So motivation is the biggest predictor of success. If you think about your own life in those terms, you'll see that where you've had the most, most success, it doesn't necessarily mean you're the most talented or, you know, the highest ranked person in your class in your field. But if you are motivated to either get better at something or to do something, or in your example, to win that game, you're more likely to do it even if the opposing team is more talented. And that's because of the motivation factor. After a setback, you're really motivated to climb out of it.

Kate Hardcastle (37:55)

But I've seen it sometimes where when someone is in a crisis, they get fired. Something happens. Yeah. They can get up and come up with great ideas, or they could say, you know, screw it, I'm done with this. So people don't always fight back. Sometimes they retreat.

Amy Schoenthal (38:15)

If you are given a choice between two options and one is keep moving forward on this path, and one is get off the path and say, screw it, I'm done. You really have to evaluate if the path is right for you anymore. And maybe the screw it, I'm done is okay, you know, maybe that's okay for whatever your example is. I mean, it's kind of hard to talk about this without specifics, but quitting might not. You know, it gets a bad rep. But sometimes quitting is the best thing you can do for yourself because it removes the mess of whatever you're in and. And gives you a clean slate to move forward into your next chapter.

Kate Hardcastle (38:56)

Yeah. Well, I can give you a pretty concrete example of something I saw over and over again. Many years ago when I was doing standup comedy, there would be guys that would try doing comedy, and they just. It wasn't working. And they kept trying, and they kept trying, and they kept trying, and eventually they said, you know what? Screw it. I quit that. I mean, they weren't going to get where they wanted to go. They finally realized it and they walked away. But at least they tried.

Amy Schoenthal (39:27)

Yeah, absolutely. And I would venture to guess that whatever they learned in that, in their experience doing comedy, really served them in whatever they chose to do next.

Kate Hardcastle (39:44)

So I wonder what the difference is, though, between somebody who takes that setback and brushes off and gets back on the horse, whatever metaphor you want to use, versus somebody who says screw it and walks away.

Amy Schoenthal (39:58)

It depends on their lived experience and what came before this. The neuroscientist I interviewed was able to prove in her lab that people who have gone through more setbacks are just better at dealing with future setbacks. Setbacks. It's when you recognize the cycle, and it doesn't make it more fun in the moment. Like, I. I'm the setback expert, and when I am thrust into my next setback, I hate it. And I want to fast forward through it. But because I've done all this research and have all this information and have all these tools, I know that I can't fast forward through it. I know that I have to go through the embrace phase before I can move forward to explore. But I always want to fast forward through the embrace phase. Some people just want to stay in the embrace phase. They want to sort of wallow in their sadness and just sit there, and they should. They should let themselves, but only for, you know, a defined period of time. You know, they have to eventually come out of it. And if you're having trouble coming out of it, you really should seek help. There's so many incredible mental health resources and community resources that. That you can tap into. I mean, a therapist would be really great here. A coach, someone who's just, like, in your corner, helping pull you out of whatever moment you're in.

Kate Hardcastle (41:14)

Right.

Amy Schoenthal (41:14)

I can give the guidance of what you should do, but if you're having trouble doing it, you will need to seek individual help.

Kate Hardcastle (41:21)

But how many people have trouble doing it? I mean, when you observe people who don't know you're observing them and don't know anything about what you Write about and talk about. How do people handle this on their own? Because it seems like if you're drowning, you have to not drown. So you have to find some way to grab that life thing. So if you didn't help people, how would those people do otherwise?

Amy Schoenthal (41:50)

That's so specific to the individual. And everyone's gonna come out of their setback. It's going to take longer for some people. It's going to impact people much more intensely than others. I can't really say definitively how people who are struggling to get through a setback will eventually get through it. But what I will say is, even if you end up staying in the embrace phase for longer than you want to or longer than you feel is productive, and you end up wallowing and getting stuck in those spirals, I will say you will eventually come out of it it. And that moment where you get from the embrace to the explore phase, it's not super clean cut. Like you're kind of growing out of it as you're stepping into the new phase. And it can go really, really slowly. And the explore phase may not be this exciting, fun, creative space to play, or it may not feel like that. But, I mean, eventually you're right. Like, you're going to have to move forward. I. At some point, you're going to have to get a new job or find a new way to earn an income. If you get laid off, you're, you know, if you are sad about a broken relationship, eventually, you know, you can still be heartbroken and simultaneously move on with your life. So, yes, even the people who struggle deeply with this will eventually emerge because there's no other choice.

Kate Hardcastle (43:19)

There seems to me, as I think about setbacks in my life, there seems to be a moment, there's a very magic moment where you finally get whatever it takes to start doing something, because the doing helps you stop wallowing. If you're wallowing, you can't do both at the same time. So if you feel like you're working on something, on fixing it, it, then it starts to feel better. But until you get to that point where you're now feeling like you're in control and you've got something to do, getting there is the hard part. That's what I would guess.

Amy Schoenthal (43:58)

Yeah, absolutely. Getting there is always the hard part. It's. I guess it's. It's knowing what to do and when to do it, that's the real challenge. But when you have that moment of clarity, it is so freeing and it is so liberating. And I want to help people get to that moment faster.

Kate Hardcastle (44:19)

And what is the optimal goal here? If you go through this cycle and come out the other end as perfectly as you could possibly imagine, what does that look like?

Amy Schoenthal (44:33)

It looks like you coming out and arriving at a place that's even better than the path you were originally on, than the goal you were originally working towards. That happens all the time. You know, people are working towards a thing, they get bumped backwards, and then the new path that they figure out leads them to somewhere more successful, better feeling more balanced, feeling like, wow, if I hadn't had that set book I set back, I never would have arrived here. And it is such an exhilarating moment, but it's often only understood within the lens of hindsight. And so I want people to understand what they're going through and the fact that they're on the path probably to something better while they're going through it.

Kate Hardcastle (45:17)

Yeah, well, if anybody has ever said, you know, had a job, got fired and said, you know, getting fired was the best thing that ever happened, that's, that's it, right?

Amy Schoenthal (45:29)

People. So many people have said that. One of the people I interviewed for the book said that. And I think I put it in there because I didn't understand it at the time. And I said, wow, that's incredible that getting fired was the best thing that ever happened to you. But when I happened to me, I really, really understood it on a new level. But you know what, what this woman was saying was if she hadn't gotten fired, she would have just stayed in that job because it was cushy, it was easy. But because she got fired, she got to do this thing that she had always sort of had in the back of her mind that she wanted to do and she got to do it. And that that woman was Stacy London. She's, she's the former host of what not to Wear. That was on TLC for like 10 years. She got fired from a high end fashion magazine and that's what got her to start becoming a stylist for regular people, not just fashion models. And that's what led to her long TV and media career that's still going strong today, like 20 years later.

Kate Hardcastle (46:24)

Is there a general sense from the work you do with people, like, how long this should take to at least get you back on the on ramp? You may not have solved the whole problem yet, but, like, what's the average wallow period? Understanding that situations and people are all different, but like, if you're still wallowing a Year later, it seems like that's a red flag.

Amy Schoenthal (46:51)

It's so funny. Everyone asks that. Everyone asks me this in every interview. What's the timeframe for the setback cycle? How long does it take to get through a setback? How long does it take each phase take? And I laugh because I can't possibly answer that. And it's frustrating for people. But I have interviewed so many people who have gone through so many setbacks. And the range is so big that you could go through five setbacks in one morning. Right. There's the daily micro setbacks, the little things. You know, you have a flat tire, there's no gas in the car. Just like the little things that set you back, make you late for work work. Then there's the bigger things. And some of those bigger things take years, take decades to work through. And I, people get so frustrated when I say that. And I say that knowing that now there's a book to get you through it. So hopefully your setback won't take you decades to work through. But look, getting fired, sure it was the best thing that ever happened to me, but there is going to be lingering trauma from even the best setbacks that it's going to affect you even years later, even after you have emerged.

Kate Hardcastle (47:59)

You know what I wonder is when people have a setback and they then say, okay, well now I can start that business, or now the path is cleared for me to do this other thing I've always wanted to do, is that the thing that typically ends up being done or is it that straight of a line or not?

Amy Schoenthal (48:21)

It's usually pretty crooked. It can be linear, it can be very step by step turnkey, but it's usually crooked. And look, sometimes as you're going through the setback cycle, you will encounter another setback. Quite often that happens. But what you have to remember is you're now more equipped to deal with it.

Kate Hardcastle (48:38)

Well, that's interesting. So there's setbacks within the setback that can really knock you for a loop.

Amy Schoenthal (48:44)

Totally. Because when you're trying new things, you're not good at them yet. When you're trying new things, you're still trying to get better at them and you're, you're inevitably going to mess something up. Say you're laid off from a job and you're starting a new business, you have never done this before. So any new exploration is inherently risky. When you're trying something new, when you're learning a new skill or a new subject or a new industry, you have a lot to learn, and you're not going to be perfect at it. It's not going to go that smoothly. But prepare yourself for that. Know that you're going to mess up. Know that you're going to continue to learn. And every mess up, every setback is in service of that forward trajectory that you're now on. And, and keep going. You know, don't give up at the first setback. Keep going unless you get to a point where you think it might not be worth the effort anymore. And you're always going to have to be reevaluating that again, even when things are going long.

Kate Hardcastle (49:43)

So Amy has a free download on her website, 10 Questions to Ask yourself when facing a setback that you might find very helpful if you're facing a setback. Her website is thesetbackcycle.com and there's a link to it in the show notes. Amy's book is the Setback Cycle and there's a link to that at Amazon also in the show notes. And thanks so much for coming on and talking about this, Amy.

Amy Schoenthal (50:10)

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you inviting me on to chat.

Kate Hardcastle (50:17)

Every summer you hear stories about somebody being attacked by a shark or an alligator. And because those stories get a lot of attention and because they're often very dramatic, we develop this fear of being attacked by those animals. So first of all, it's worth noting that the number of people killed every year by an animal, any animal, is pretty small. And in fact, you are statistically much more likely to be killed by bees than by a shark. Here's the average breakdown. Sharks, alligators and bears all kill about one American every year. Venomous snakes and lizards kill about six people a year. Spiders kill seven. Cows. Yeah, cows kill about 20Americans per year. It's mostly people who work on dairy farms and dogs. Man's best friend. They kill about 28 people a year. Bees, hornets and wasps kill 58Americans every year, mostly by anaphylactic shock after getting stung. And that is something you should know. I count on you to help spread the word about this podcast. If you enjoyed this show, I hope you will tell your friends. Use the share function on your player to share it with people and help spread the word. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Grim Grimmer Grimmest Host (51:42)

You might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring. But the real Grimm fairy tales were not cute at all. They were very dark and they were often very grim. On Grim Grimmer Grimmest, we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids. Perfect for car rides or screen free entertainment, Grim Grimmer Grimmest activates kids imaginations and instigates fun conversations because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family. Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer or Grimmest so you, your kids, your whole family can choose what is the right level of Grim for you. Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grim Missed. Trust me on this one. Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest and our new season.

Sarah Gabrielli (52:33)

Available now from the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country and back in time, through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of Cruising beyond the Bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrielli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more.

Kate Hardcastle (53:01)

For 11 years, every night women slept.

Mike Carruthers (53:04)

Illegally on the Common. We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation. Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music.

Amy Schoenthal (53:15)

And that's kind of the origins of the Combahee River Collective.

Sarah Gabrielli (53:20)

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday starting February 4th.