Why You Should Talk More Often & How People Get Brainwashed

Summary

Something You Should Know: Episode Summary

Title: Why You Should Talk More Often & How People Get Brainwashed
Host: Mike Carruthers | OmniCast Media
Release Date: June 2, 2025

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1. Introduction to Effective Communication on Virtual Platforms

Timestamp: [00:33] – [03:10]

In the opening segment, host Mike Carruthers addresses the challenges of maintaining effective communication during Zoom or conference calls. He highlights common pitfalls such as asking redundant questions like "Are we all on?" or "Can everyone hear me?" which often lead to simultaneous talking and reduced meeting efficiency. Carruthers emphasizes the importance of eliminating such phrases to streamline virtual meetings.

Key Points:

• Virtual meetings can be less effective due to participants being in different locations.
• Common phrases can disrupt the flow and productivity of meetings.
• Streamlining communication by avoiding unnecessary questions can enhance meeting efficiency.

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2. The Power of Talking: Insights from Mary Ellen McDonald

Timestamp: [03:20] – [28:01]

a. Cognitive Benefits of Talking

Mary Ellen McDonald, a cognitive scientist and professor at the University of Wisconsin, discusses how talking serves more functions than mere communication. According to McDonald, speaking sharpens attention, regulates emotions, and assists in goal pursuit. These benefits extend beyond interactions with others; talking to oneself, whether aloud or silently, can enhance cognitive functions.

Notable Quote:

"Talking sharpens our attention, the talker's attention, we regulate the talker's emotions, helps us pursue our goals and more good things."
— Mary Ellen McDonald [06:43]

b. Internal vs. External Talking

McDonald differentiates between talking aloud and internal dialogue. While most people report having a "voice in their head," some do not, yet they still comprehend meaning while reading. She explains that internal talking, even without vocalization, involves subtle muscle movements and plays a crucial role in cognitive processes.

Notable Quote:

"People who have been talking out loud compared to just talking in their heads show different levels of commitment and permanence to their thoughts."
— Mary Ellen McDonald [10:37]

c. Talking in Child Development

McDonald underscores the significance of children talking aloud as a foundation for internal dialogue. She points out that active verbalization in children enhances their cognitive and language development, improving executive functions like emotion regulation and planning.

Notable Quote:

"Talking is a desirable difficulty for little kids. It's got all that concentrating to get the words. It's managing the back and forth of conversations and turn-taking."
— Mary Ellen McDonald [23:43]

d. Emotional Clarity Through Naming Emotions

The act of naming emotions through talking is beneficial for emotional regulation. McDonald explains that therapists often ask clients to articulate their feelings to help them gain clarity and better cope with their emotions.

Notable Quote:

"Studies show that people who name their emotions are better able to cope with whatever it is that is making them upset."
— Mary Ellen McDonald [26:41]

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3. Understanding Brainwashing: A Conversation with Rebecca Lamov

Timestamp: [30:00] – [49:22]

a. Definition and Dynamics of Brainwashing

Historian of science Rebecca Lamov delves into the concept of brainwashing, describing it as "coercive persuasion" that combines external force with internal persuasion. She differentiates it from casual persuasion, emphasizing that true brainwashing involves a blend of manipulation and coercion.

Notable Quote:

"Brainwashing is a combination of coercion or external force with persuasion, which is something that works internally."
— Rebecca Lamov [33:03]

b. Extreme vs. Mild Brainwashing

Lamov discusses whether brainwashing is inherently extreme or if it can occur in more subtle forms. She posits that while classic examples like Patty Hearst's captivity are extreme, everyday media and digital interactions may represent milder, yet pervasive, forms of brainwashing.

Notable Quote:

"Perhaps shopping malls where each of your senses is targeted... could constitute a form of mild brainwashing."
— Rebecca Lamov [35:42]

c. Susceptibility and Vulnerability

Exploring why some individuals are more susceptible to brainwashing, Lamov suggests that life transitions, personal vulnerabilities, and situational factors play significant roles. She argues that no one is entirely immune to brainwashing under certain conditions.

Notable Quote:

"Any of us is vulnerable. Any of us can be susceptible at a certain moment in a certain time."
— Rebecca Lamov [43:26]

d. Modern Implications: Digital Media and AI Companions

Lamov raises concerns about contemporary forms of brainwashing through digital media and AI companions. She highlights how personalized and targeted interactions with AI can manipulate individuals' beliefs and behaviors more intimately than traditional media.

Notable Quote:

"Digital brainwashing is hyper-targeted... these companions can receive messages shaped just for you and your psychological type."
— Rebecca Lamov [49:22]

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4. Conclusions and Key Takeaways

Timestamp: [54:00] – End

Mike Carruthers wraps up the episode by reflecting on the profound discussions with Mary Ellen McDonald and Rebecca Lamov. He emphasizes the critical roles that talking plays in cognitive development and emotional regulation, as well as the subtle and pervasive nature of brainwashing in modern society. Carruthers encourages listeners to be mindful of their communication habits and the influences shaping their beliefs.

Key Takeaways:

• Effective communication, especially in virtual settings, requires conscious avoidance of redundant phrases.
• Talking enhances cognitive functions, emotional clarity, and is essential in child development.
• Brainwashing, both extreme and mild, impacts individuals' beliefs and behaviors, particularly through modern digital interactions.
• Awareness and critical thinking are essential to safeguard against subtle forms of brainwashing.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Mary Ellen McDonald on the benefits of talking:
  "Talking sharpens our attention... helps us pursue our goals."
  [06:43]

• Rebecca Lamov on the nature of brainwashing:
  "Brainwashing is a combination of coercion or external force with persuasion."
  [33:03]

• Mary Ellen McDonald on children's development:
  "Talking is a desirable difficulty for little kids... managing the back and forth of conversations."
  [23:43]

• Rebecca Lamov on digital brainwashing:
  "Digital brainwashing is hyper-targeted... messages shaped just for you."
  [49:22]

---

This episode of "Something You Should Know" offers valuable insights into the multifaceted role of talking in our lives and the subtle ways in which our beliefs can be influenced. Whether enhancing personal cognitive abilities or recognizing the sophisticated mechanisms of modern brainwashing, listeners are equipped with knowledge to navigate both personal and societal challenges effectively.

Transcript

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[Mike Carruthers]

Today on something you should know what not to say on a Zoom or conference call. Then talking. It's something we all do and need to do. Because talking has so many benefits.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

To talk and specifically name what we're feeling clarifies our emotions. For us therapists ask and how does that make you feel? Because the act of naming the emotion is beneficial to the talker.

[Mike Carruthers]

Also, why you really should shop around for car insurance and a look into brainwashing what it is and what it isn't.

[Rebecca Lamov]

I think the temptation is to lob the word brainwashing as an insult to say, oh, those people over there, surely they're brainwashed. I mean, it often ends up as the end of an argument like I have no way of further talking to you. You're surely brainwashed.

[Mike Carruthers]

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[Mike Carruthers]

Can use in your life today.

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Something you should know with Mike Carruthers.

[Mike Carruthers]

What not to say on a zoom call or a conference call. That's a good way to start this episode. Hi, and welcome to something you should know. Conference calls or zoom meetings have become a standard part of the workday for many of us, and the fact that everyone comes to these meetings but is actually at a different location can really drag down the effectiveness of these meetings. So here are some great advice regarding things not to say on a zoom call or a conference call where multiple people are present from different locations. The first thing not to say is, are we all on? No one person can answer that, so everyone will talk at once. And of course, the people who aren't on can't hear you ask if we're all on, so there's really no point to that. Can everyone hear me? Again, no one person can answer that, so everyone will talk at once. Did everybody get the agenda? Again, no one person can answer that, so everybody talks at once. Let's keep this short. Well, that makes it sound as if the meeting is pretty unimportant and maybe unnecessary. Let's do a quick roll call. I've heard that one. Well, why do a roll call? First of all, you can see who's on a zoom call or a conference call, and no one really cares who's there or who isn't. It's just a waste of time. And who hasn't heard this? We'll just wait a few minutes for everyone else to get here.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Why?

[Mike Carruthers]

They're late. Let's start the meeting. And then when someone who is late shows up, they interrupt the meeting and say, sorry, I'm late. Well, why would you interrupt a meeting? To announce that if you eliminate these phrases from zoom meetings and conference calls, things can move along much quicker. And that is something you should know. Of all the creatures on Earth, we humans have one special ability that truly sets us apart. The ability to speak. To communicate with a complicated language. And so we talk. We talk to each other. We talk to ourselves. We talk to inanimate objects. We talk. And as it turns out, talking does more than just communicate. Interestingly, talking is hard work. In fact, we can understand speech 50% faster than we can create our own speech. That's how hard it is. And all the things that go on in your head that allow you to speak spill over into many areas of your life. Here to tell you about this is Mary Ellen McDonald's. She is a cognitive scientist and professor of psychology and language sciences at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. And she is author of a book called More Than How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes Our World. Hi, Mary Ellen. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Hi Mike. It's good to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So when you think about it, talking is a pretty special ability. It allows us to communicate and form relationships and communities and societies and, and help me, which is very special, but help me understand what else it does beyond that.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

What we don't usually recognize is that talking has some very interesting, very positive effects on the person doing the talking, which actually have nothing to do with communicating with other people. So talking sharpens our attention, the talker's attention, we regulates the talker's emotions, helps us pursue our goals and more good things. And you don't even have to be talking to someone. You can get these benefits by talking to yourself, writing it down, or just talking in your head.

[Mike Carruthers]

And how do you know this?

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Well, we know this because we scientists who study talking have looked at how talking works and why it has these effects that it has. And we get these benefits from talking really because of the way that talking works in your brain. So suppose you want to say something like, it's really important that I finish this report today. Now we have a pile of about 50,000 words we have stored in our memory. And to say this particular sentence at the particular moment you want to say it, we need to find those specific words, report today, important, that sort of stuff, and only those words. We don't need a bunch of other words gumming up the talking. It's a really tall order to get just those words out of our 50,000 word haystack of memory. And the way we do it is to concentrate very hard mentally. Even if you're not aware of this concentration, concentrate on the idea we want to convey. And this concentration makes it possible to find the relevant words for talking. The consequence, the additional consequence of you concentrating on the idea is that it then helps you maintain focus on it. Having said that, this crucial report needs to get finished, you're more likely to buckle down and work on it.

[Mike Carruthers]

What is the difference between talking to yourself inside your head and talking out loud to someone else?

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

People have actually studied, it's a very hard thing to study. But researchers have studied what goes on when people are talking in their head. The first interesting thing to know is that some people report there is no voice in their head and there is no talking in their head. We don't know quite what's up with that because the vast majority of people report that they can hear a voice in their head when they're thinking to themselves or when they're reading to themselves. But for those people who do report that there's a voice in their head, we can detect tiny muscle movements in the mouth that suggest that in fact they're doing part of the process of talking up to, but not including actually having the articulation of the words come out of their mouths. There's also really fascinating research studying patients who have strokes and other kinds of illnesses that keep them from being able to talk anymore. Where scientists are trying to turn brainwaves into a computer voice talking, where the patient's talking in their head drives the electrical signal connected to this computerized voice so that the person who can't physically talk themselves anymore can generate some messages. And there's no way that that's going to work unless there's some talking in your head that is driving that system.

[Mike Carruthers]

It seems to me that when I speak versus when I talk to myself in my head, when I speak, there's something more permanent about it. It's stickier. It's not just a fleeting thought, but it's said out loud. The world has heard it and there's something more permanent about it.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Right. So I would say you've identified two out of the three kinds of levels of talking to yourself. There's the possibly fleeting one in your head. There's the talking out lo to yourself that as you say, sounds more important and maybe lasting. And the third one that researchers have identified is writing it down in a journal, in a letter to yourself, in a letter to somebody else. The act of writing is slower, more deliberative, and has even more of this sticky, long lasting feeling. You can probably make your even talking in your head feeling more like talking out loud by really concentrating on it and trying to do it strongly in a way. And in fact, in sports psychology, athletes are coached to talk to themselves, usually in their head, but out loud, if they feel like it, to boost their attention, squeeze out more focus, more determination, better performance in whatever athletic endeavor they're doing. And the coaching helps them take that fleeting thought and be more deliberative about what it is that they're saying to themselves, because they don't really have the opportunity to stop and write it down in the middle of whatever athletic thing they're doing.

[Mike Carruthers]

I want to go back to something you said, and maybe it just is what it is, and there's no story here, but you said people. There are some people who report they have no voice in their head. So when they read, what does that look like for them? Because when I read, I hear the words in my head. That's how I read.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Yeah, most people do. And little electrodes put on people's mouths while they're reading, for most people show just slight activation of, for example, your lips or your tongue as you're reading, even though you're not a person who's reading out loud. Apparently. And this is a really new area. There are a subset of people who say they don't have a voice in their head either when they're thinking or when they are reading. The people reading who don't hear a voice in their head seem to just get to the meaning of what they're reading. Those of us who do have a voice in their head are probably getting to the meaning and the sounds of the words. So it seems to be possible that readers can sometimes just get to meaning without having a conscious awareness of sounds in their head when they're reading.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know what's interesting to me? Children are always talking to themselves. If you peek into a child's room while they're playing, they are narrating everything they're doing.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

That is absolutely right. And child development researchers think that that internal, that external talking to themselves is kind of the on ramp to being able to talk in their heads. So to the extent that we understand this in little kids, you're right, they talk all the time. They are like narrating the play by play and the color commentary of their day or what they're doing and that little running monologue. Eventually, age five, age six, something like that starts to become more internal and less external talking. And for the most part, internal talking is more efficient. It runs faster in the head.

[Mike Carruthers]

People will point at, make fun of people who talk to themselves. But everybody talks to themselves out loud. I mean, when you're home alone, you'll talk to yourself. There's nobody alive that doesn't do that.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

We're often not totally aware of the behaviors that we do. And I can easily predict that muttering to yourself when nobody else is around is a behavior that some people believe they never do, but actually do do. Yes.

[Mike Carruthers]

And, you know, I think people do it as just a knee jerk reaction, like if you're so, say you're walking down the street all by yourself and a bird comes and like hits you in the head or something. Everybody will say what the hell was. They'll say, they will say it out loud as a knee jerk reaction to that. And there's nobody listening. They're saying it to themselves for reasons I don't necessarily know. But it happens all the time.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Yes, I think that particular talking is an outgrowth of a kind of vocalization that we have and in fact many, many other animals have. It's a surprise reaction to a stimulus or like a bird hitting us, like ah. And that is involuntary and it's very adaptive because if anybody else is around and you scream ah, somebody's going to come help you or see what's the matter. And ah. What was that? That's sort of both the involuntary and a little bit of. Yeah, talking out loud. That's not communicating but is just basically expressing the surprise of the situation.

[Mike Carruthers]

I like the way you say ah.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

I could do it more.

[Mike Carruthers]

No, that's okay. Well, yeah, go ahead one more time.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

No, no, I think we're good.

[Mike Carruthers]

All right. I'm talking to Mary Ellen MacDonald. She's a cognitive scientist and author of the book More Than Words. How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes Our World. I have mentioned many times how I like to cook and I encourage other people too because, well, it's fun, it's creative, you get to experiment. And B, the big reason is you can save a lot of money, but you have to have the right cookware. Caraway is the right cookware. Look, cheap pots and pans come with a price. With caraway cookware there are no toxins, no plastic coatings that can leach into your food and then into your body. Caraway is guilt free cooking. I'm sure you've heard about the concerns about microplastics and chemicals that people ingest and the concern about non stick coatings on pots and pans. But caraway gives you peace of mind knowing that you're not exposing yourself to harmful chemicals or microplastics. And it's great to cook with, it's easy to clean, comes in gorgeous colors and it will quickly pay for itself because you will eat out less and you'll have fewer fast food delivery costs because you're going to love cooking at home with caraway cookware. If you've been eyeing their Internet famous 12 piece cookware set, now is the perfect time to buy. You can shop caraway risk free, enjoy fast, free shipping, easy returns and a 30 day trial free. Plus if you visit CarawayHome.comSYSK you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.comSYSK or use code sysk at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware made Modern.

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[Mike Carruthers]

So Mary Ellen when you study people who talk to themselves, how does if at all the language they speak to themselves in change anything?

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

There's some suggestion that thinking or talking out loud while problem solving in your native strongest language versus your second language, even if you're still fluent, it's not as good as your strongest language. There's some suggestion there that problem solving works somewhat differently in that people who are talking in their second language are more logical than in their native language. I'm not really convinced about the explanations for this, but the most popular explanation is that people are more emotional in their native language. It's what they grew up with as a little kid. It's where their original family ties lie, and so there's more emotionality in thinking through a problem speaking in their native language. But for those who have a second language handy that they learned a bit later in life, they don't have that many emotional connections and they're able to more home in on just the most logical aspects of the story. That's the best explanation that exists right now. I think. It's a kind of new effect and it needs a bit more checking up on.

[Mike Carruthers]

One thing you talk about that I find really interesting is about kids. Kids spend a lot of their time being talked to, but you say, well, you explain it about the importance of kids talking out loud themselves.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

So because talking is so important to the person doing the talking, it follows that a kid's talking is really important to their own cognitive and language development. I think this is an important message because parents have heard a lot of messages about how it is so important for the parents to talk to the kid, and they haven't heard the message that actually the kids own talking. And the amount of Back and forth. Real conversation that parents have with their kids. The kids own communication is at least as important as the amount of language that the parent is spreading out in the environment to the kid. And that is not only interesting, but it has consequences for parenting today. If a parent thinks, well, language input is important, they could talk to their kid. Great. Or they could hand their kid a tablet to listen to a story on YouTube for kids. Or they could hand their kid their phone to listen to somebody talking on the phone. All of these media all have input if they've got some language in them. But what they don't have is the opportunity for the kid to talk back. And a lot of parents are passing phones and tablets and TV to their kids at increasing rates these days. At the same time as the national association of Pediatricians are advising that little kids should not be having this kind of media. A primary reason why they shouldn't be having media at young ages is because the kids need to be talking themselves. When the kid's watching something on a tablet, the kid's not talking and the parent's not talking to them. That's a big impact on parenting. And understanding the kids need to talk is a really big thing that I want people to understand.

[Mike Carruthers]

Okay. And I get that it sounds logical, but kids need to talk because what happens when they do? What's the benefit of doing this? That's what I think I need to hear.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

Yeah. So earlier we talked about how when you talk, you have to get the right words out, which requires a lot of concentration. And kids need to have that exercise. So educators talk about certain kinds of lessons in school being a, quote, desirable difficulty. It works the kid's brain hard and it has desirable consequences. Their brain gets a workout and they get better and learn more and more skilled and so forth, so on. Talking is a desirable difficulty for little kids. It's got all that concentrating to get the words. It's managing the back and forth of conversations and turn taking. It's planning out what they want to say. It's the exercise of turning some internal idea into their actual speech. And all of those have a desirable difficulty that tunes the kid's perception and ability to concentrate and what's called executive function, their ability to regulate their emotions and plan ahead and so on.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, that's really interesting because you don't hear that message much, but it makes total sense that if kids aren't talking, then they're not developing the skill of talking. They're just having to listen or passively watch a tablet that just doesn't engage that whole part of the deal.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

That's right. And then they get to school. And school discourages talking about. There are all sorts of studies that show that talking actually boosts learning. There's pretty much nothing you can't learn better if you're talking about it. Yet our school situation is such that with very few exceptions, children are told to be quiet and listen to the teacher and don't talk. And all this wisdom we have about how talking benefits the talker really runs up against not only those misapprehensions in parenting about why it would be okay to hand your kid a tablet, but also all these misapprehensions in the education system where people think that the ideal form of learning is to sit quietly. And it's not. It's to engage by talking.

[Mike Carruthers]

What about the idea of talking and emotions? You know, we hear and the reason people go to therapy is to talk about things, to talk about their emotions. What's the connection from your perspective?

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

When we're in some intense emotional state, we don't often know exactly what we're feeling. We might be able to say upset, but that could be lots of things. It turns out that doing the work to talk and specifically name what we're feeling clarifies our emotions for us. Therapists ask, and how does that make you feel? In part because the therapist wants to know how the client is feeling. But the therapist is asking that question because the act of naming the emotion is beneficial to the talker themselves. So when you're feeling upset, try to stop and say to yourself or to somebody else, or write it down exactly what it is you're feeling. Is it that you are disappointed about your brother? You're angry, you're worried. If you have to go through the possibilities and try to hone in by talking about it exactly what it is to that you feel. Studies show that people who name their emotions are better able to cope with whatever it is that is making them upset.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I've never talked about talking this way before. It's an unusual way to look at the topic. And I appreciate you joining me. I've been speaking with Mary Ellen McDonald. She is a cognitive scientist and professor of psychology and language sciences at the University of Wisconsin. She's author of the book More Than How Talking Sharpens the Mind and Shapes Our World. And there's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. I am a big fan of Shopify. They have been a longtime sponsor here, and Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses. And they should be behind yours too, because they get it right. If you run a business, you know, as I do, that there are so many details that need your attention, it can be overwhelming. Finding the right tool that can handle a lot of those details and simplify the selling process, well, that's a game changer and it makes your life easy and helps you sell more, which is what Shopify does. Shopify handles 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark. If Mattel and Gymshark are using Shopify as their commerce platform along with millions of other businesses, shouldn't you be too? Shopify gets you up and running with your own design studio. They've got hundreds of ready to use templates to build a beautiful online store and AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines, and even enhance your product photography. If you've ever tried to build an online store, this has got to sound pretty tempting. Turn your big business ideas into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com sysk go to shopify.com sysk shopify.com sysk we have a new sponsor and I'm really glad the timing is critical. Rocket Money I use Rocket Money because, well, look, everything's getting expensive and well, you know, as I do that, a lot of money, I mean, you're not really sure where it went, but it's gone now. And this is what's so great about Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. It monitors your spending and it helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. And you might say, well, how can they lower my bills? Well, when I first signed up, Rocket Money sent me this notification that they, not me, they could see if they could get me a better deal on car insurance. And for the bills you have, will they automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save? Then you can ask them to go negotiate for you. They'll deal with customer service so you don't have to. If there's a subscription you don't want anymore, they'll cancel it so you don't have to. That's worth it right there for me because I hate dealing with customer service. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with rocket money, go to Rocketmoney.com something today that's Rocketmoney.com something Rocketmoney.com something when you hear the word brainwashing, you probably think of cults or kidnappers who manipulate people into thinking or believing something. Which is true. That's brainwashing. But brainwashing is more than that, and it's usually a negative term in the sense that we often say people have been brainwashed, but only because they believe something we don't. You aren't brainwashed, and people who believe what you believe are not brainwashed, only people who believe something different. The other thing about brainwashing is that we all like to believe we can't be brainwashed. Really? I'm not so sure. Here to dive into this topic is Rebecca Lamov. She is an historian of science at Harvard University and author of the book the Instability of Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper Persuasion. Hi Rebecca. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

[Rebecca Lamov]

Thanks so much, Mike. It's great to be here.

[Mike Carruthers]

So we hear that term brainwashing a lot, and I'm not sure I know exactly what it is, if it's a real thing or if it kind of describes persuasion in a different way. I mean, what is brainwashing?

[Rebecca Lamov]

Well, one, I mean, there are many definitions of brainwashing starting in the 1950s, but I think a cognate that I like to use, which is two words, kind of gets to the heart of the dynamics of brainwashing, which is coercive persuasion. And that reminds us that brainwashing is a combination of coercion or external force with persuasion, which is something that works internally. And there has to be a combination of both.

[Mike Carruthers]

But is brainwashing, I think, of brainwashing, not knowing much about it, is basically bombarding you with something so much of the time, so often, so many different ways that you come to believe something that is not true.

[Rebecca Lamov]

That could be one definition. I think it has more to do with not so much learning to believe something that's not true as finding yourself in a situation where you're capitulated either to save your life or one capitulates or to. I mean, a famous case of brainwashing would be Patty Hearst, who said, who was kidnapped by a guerrilla organization and held in a closet and bombarded, as you say, by tracks of information, but also by brutal treatment and ultimately rape and various forms of degradation. And in the end, she said, I accommodated my thoughts to coincide with theirs, and she had made a choice to survive in that situation. And she, for that time, she. She came to accept other beliefs than were her own originally.

[Mike Carruthers]

So that. So Patty Hearst is a good example to illustrate my question here. Did she come to actually believe what she says she believed, or did she pretend to believe in order to survive?

[Rebecca Lamov]

I think the latter. I think one of the confusions is she was truly converted, and she would say that herself or has said that in interviews. She said, for that time I was truly a soldier in their army, and I had to be. She had to believe it herself, and she had to become that in order to make them believe it because they didn't want to think they had brainwashed her. It's actually quite a tricky dynamic sometimes. But I think one of our mistakes in trying to understand the either or of that is that people can be genuinely converted, but it's not a permanent state necessarily.

[Mike Carruthers]

So Patty Hearst and other examples that you talk about are pretty extreme examples. Is brainwashing, by its definition extreme, or can you kind of lightly brainwash somebody?

[Rebecca Lamov]

That's a great question. This is what drew me to the topic, is that I thought, if I look at these extreme cases, could I learn something about the seemingly banal or ordinary circumstances in which we're mildly coercively persuaded each day? Or so I was feeling when I embarked on this research, that even going through a shopping mall where each of your senses is sort of targeted by sensory stimuli in a very deliberate way, could that constitute a form of mild brainwashing? And could the extreme examples shed light on the ordinary circumstances? And I came to believe through my research that they do, and this includes our increasingly pervasive digital environments.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I would think we're essentially all being brainwashed to some extent, all the time. I mean, most of what. What I've come to believe isn't through rigorous research and analysis. It's affected by what I saw my parents believe, or what I saw my friends believe, or what teachers taught me in school that all of that is a form of brainwashing. But we don't use the term. Brainwashing is a negative term. Like, you aren't brainwashed to believe what I want you to believe. You've been brainwashed to believe what I don't believe.

[Rebecca Lamov]

Yeah, I mean, I do make that argument because I think the tendency or the temptation is to lob the word brainwashing as an insult to say, oh, that group is brainwashed, or those people over there, surely they're brainwashed, or just to simply. I mean, it often ends up as the you know, the end of an argument like, you know, I have no way of further talking to you, you're surely brainwashed. But what I suggest and recommend as a result of my investigations and my personal experience with it is that it's actually an invitation for self investigation that I think we are all being to whatever degree affected all the time and that to the extent we're unaware of it, these programs or messages and the dynamics by which they operate, then we're more vulnerable.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it's interesting what you said about, you know, it's the end of a conversation that, oh, you're just brainwashed because you don't believe. What I believe is the rest of that sentence that doesn't usually get said. It's never, we're all brainwashed in this together.

[Rebecca Lamov]

That's never been spoken. Except that I guess I would encourage us to start thinking that way.

[Mike Carruthers]

Can anybody be brainwashed?

[Rebecca Lamov]

Yeah, I mean this. So one interesting area to look at this is in cult recruitment. And a lot of the similar dynamic happens with cults and with scams as well, where we often. There's a great popularity of cult documentaries and also articles that detail people who fell for online scams or various schemes in which they were deluded or deceived. And often the dynamic is, oh, that happened to them. But as I follow along, I always try to find out, well, this is when I wouldn't have believed that or I never would have thought that cult leader was handsome or I never would have signed over my, my savings to this person or you know, there it becomes a distancing and end of a conversation or just a feeling that I'm safe. But I think that, I think that if you actually look at the history of cults and people who becomes involved in them and talk to people, really any of us is vulnerable. Any of us can be susceptible at a certain moment in a certain time. So some of it has to do with happenstance, some of it has to do with your own personal history. But it's certainly true that there's. I can't think of anyone who's not vulnerable.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, it would seem, I mean, we all have to have a position on something some of the time. And how we got to that position could probably be argued as brainwashing. I mean, Republican or Democrat, one thinks the other has been brainwashed.

[Rebecca Lamov]

Well, we do find ourselves in that circumstance right now in an extremely polarizing way. So just to step aside from that for a minute, I do think you're onto something deeper. And one of the reasons I write about brainwashing is to discuss a deeper dynamic which is not the same as brainwashing, but has kind of an infrastructure to it. You could think of it, which is the processes of sociogenesis and psychogenesis, which is, how are we made up psychologically and sociologically as human beings? Because each of us comes from a particular context and has experiences. And one thing I became interested in is how do we. There's a sociologist named Norbert Elias in the early 20th century, and he wrote about, well, how was it that people started to mold and shape their behavior among other human beings in Europe in the 17th century? And he looked at all these old etiquette manuals from the 1700s, and he found that these manuals were full of advice such as, please never blow your nose into your. Using the tablecloth. Or you should never use your hand to blow your nose and then pass the meat to somebody else. Or please try to relieve yourself in the stairway and not in the corner of the room, or things like that. A gentleman would never do this. And this was advice given to adults. But over time, as he read these manuals, he saw that gradually people just incorporated these standards, these modes of behavior, and they were only given to children eventually. And then they were eventually incorporated into the behavior that was expected. And I think. And then. So he used that to identify what we think of that. We're all incredibly shaped by. By the assumptions and styles of our time, but we don't realize it. We come to think of them as natural. And I think it's that sense that we tend to forget the extent to which we're malleable and molded that allows us to be somewhat blind to the way brainwashing works.

[Mike Carruthers]

The idea, though, going back to the cults, that people would say, well, I would never fall for that. I would never believe that is. Does that happen? Do people get recruited into cults and go, this is crazy. I'm getting out of here? And they don't fall for it?

[Rebecca Lamov]

That is true. I mean, there's a great story I came across in my research of a. So there was a man named Ray Connolly who, when he was 17 years old, kind of joined this cult. He didn't even know the name of it, but he had just come off of a bad breakup with his girlfriend. He was searching, he was full of angst. And so he joined this group that ultimately found out it was called the Children of God. And he talks about the recruiting process, which was quite deceptive. But it also, you know, took advantage of his own state of mind, which was very confused at the time. This was around 1969. But he also describes other people were swept up in the same process of deceptive recruiting and love bombing and thought stopping and all the procedures that cults use. But some of them slunk away in the first day and some of them escaped that same week. But the people who were left a couple weeks after that, like himself, he ended up staying for like 35 years and having 17 children and then finally leaving.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so the people who are more likely to be brainwashed, why is that? What do they have in common that makes them more susceptible?

[Rebecca Lamov]

No, that's a great question. And sometimes when you hear stories about people's recruitment or how they came to end up in a cult, there's so much accident in it. And I think looking back, they feel misfortunate. But I think there are stages in your life that make you more open to it if you're going through a transition. Also, young people are more easily lured into cults because they may have less to reality test against or, you know, there are times when each of us may be more or less open or as I said, vulnerable. So I think there are a range of factors and the more I look at it and the more I hear people's stories, the more I feel that you can't completely guard against the it. But the more that you understand the dynamics, the more protected you'll be.

[Mike Carruthers]

Do people who have been brainwashed like a Patty Hearst, and when they get out of it, do they ever say, I have no idea why I fell for that, or do they know, Are they aware of what's going on and fall for it anyway because they just seemingly have no choice?

[Rebecca Lamov]

That's a really good question. I think it's a combination of both. In fact, one of the profound stories I heard was of a French physician who was working in China right before the revolution, so around 1948. And he felt that he was of so much use to the Chinese people that he would never be arrested. He would just be allowed to continue his work. But ultimately he was swept up by the incoming communist government and sent to a re education camp and labeled an enemy of an enemy of the people. And he said that, you know, first they put chains around his wrists and ankles and they forced him to eat out of a dog bowl on the floor. And he couldn't even, because he was chained, he couldn't even unzip his pants to, you know, to urinate. So he had to rely on the other cell members to do this. And he was reduced to a state of utter helplessness. And he was also interrogated and sleep deprived. And he. He said after a while he had to believe. He came to believe his own confession, which initially he knew was false, and at the same time he simultaneously believed it. But he sectioned off the part of himself. Some people call this the pseudo. He almost developed a pseudo self which believed it, and then another part knew that it was wrong. And later, when he was released by the Chinese government after three years and after he was declared perfectly reeducated, they sent him back to Hong Kong and he said, I can still move between the two. I can still. And he was quite psychologically damaged by this whole experience. So when Robert J. Lifton interviewed him on his release, he said, I can stand in the people standpoint, or I can stand in what I take to be your standpoint, and I can see the truth of each.

[Mike Carruthers]

Is there a line between persuasion and brainwashing, or are they two different things or one is just an extreme version of the other?

[Rebecca Lamov]

I think there is a line at a certain point. It's probably a continuum, but, you know, there's nothing nefarious about persuasion. We all. It's of the essence of being human to try to persuade each other and to. Even to try to change each other's minds. The cult expert and exit counselor Steve Hassan writes or argues that there's a continuum and that only at a certain point does persuasion become pathological, and there are identifiable features to that. So I don't think persuasion itself is on the pathological continuum, but once you reach a certain point where coercion is involved, where there's deception, where there's an extreme hierarchy, where there's a penalty for leaving, where one is alienated from one's family sometimes, or there are certain features that can indicate something is either an abusive cult or involves a great deal of brainwashing.

[Mike Carruthers]

So, brainwashing. So when people throw around this idea that, oh, you've been brainwashed because you're a liberal or a conservative or whatever, that's not really brainwashing. It's just that's what you believe. But, you know, it's not destroying your life and your family doesn't speak to you anymore, I mean, it's just you got to believe something, so you believe that and you're entitled.

[Rebecca Lamov]

I suppose that's true. I think that it's more the dynamics. It's maybe the dynamics of the way brainwashing operates as a device that separates people, that causes this extreme polarization. To happen. And that actually does destroy families sometimes, because we all know that that can happen in an extremely dichotomous political period like the one we're in. But I don't think the belief itself is the problem. I think it's our emotional underpinnings and the way that we interpret them.

[Mike Carruthers]

Well, I would think that it's less what you believe as to how you got there, that is brainwashing, or not brainwashing. It's what happened to you to get you to the point where you now believe what you believe.

[Rebecca Lamov]

I think that there's something to that.

[Mike Carruthers]

And so do we need to be on guard that people are trying to brainwash us? Or is this really much more of an extreme thing that unless you're walking into a cult's front door, this is not really something to concern yourself with?

[Rebecca Lamov]

I actually think we should all be very concerned with it. And one example is the recent release of AI Digital Companions or chatbots, which were first released as separate products but are now being built into most platforms, including Google and Meta. And these chatbots have sort of. I mean, the thing that's concerning about digital brainwashing is that it's hyper targeted. And I mean if you compare it with mass media where everyone would see the same, be exposed to the same, the same advertisement or show or broadcast or some program and then have your own individual reaction, perhaps it would shape your beliefs or persuade you to whatever degree. But social media, these can be sculpted individually using the data that you give and as you're tracked across platforms. But with AI Companions, these can be shaped even more intimately so that you receive your own message that's shaped just for you and your psychological type. And you're also providing feedback to this companion. So we've already seen some extreme. I don't know if I want to call this example brainwashing, but there's a terrible tragedy where a 14 year old boy committed suicide at the behest of his AI companion who he had named Daenerys after the television show Game of Thrones. And he had this intense relationship with this chatbot. But I think there's potential for tremendous alteration of people's psychological and states of being through these interactions. But even, even on a day to day level, I think we all need to be aware of the areas where we do have freedom. We're extremely malleable and maybe especially if you think only other people are, you should be concerned. But we can do well to pay attention to the bodily sensations of and cues that we're always getting, but often ignore when we're, for example, interacting with social media or digital chatbots.

[Mike Carruthers]

You know, for so many people, I think the idea of being brainwashed is hard to fathom. Like I can't believe someone would come to believe that or fall for that or join that culture. So it's interesting to get some insight into this. I've been speaking with Rebecca Lamov. She is an historian of science at Harvard and author of the book the Instability of Brainwashing, Mind Control, and Hyper Persuasion. There's a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes. And Rebecca Thanks.

[Amy Nicholson]

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

[Podcast Announcer]

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League Veep or my non eligible for K Academy Award role in Twisters.

[Amy Nicholson]

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas, and.

[Mike Carruthers]

I don't he's too old.

[Amy Nicholson]

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that Dune 2 is overrated.

[Rebecca Lamov]

It is.

[Amy Nicholson]

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk about good movies, critical hits, fan favorites.

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Must Season, In Case youe Missed Them.

[Amy Nicholson]

We're talking the Home Alone From Grease.

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To the Dark Knight.

[Amy Nicholson]

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

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And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

[Amy Nicholson]

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

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Listen to Unspooled wherever you get your podcasts.

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And don't forget to hit the follow.

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Button.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

From the podcast that brought you to each of the last lesbian bars in the country. And back in time, through the sapphic history that shaped them, comes a brand new season of Cruising beyond the Bars. This is your host, Sarah Gabrielli, and I've spent the past year interviewing history making lesbians and queer folks about all kinds of queer spaces, from bookstores to farms to line dancing and much more. More.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

For 11 years, every night women slept.

[Rebecca Lamov]

Illegally on the Common. We would move down to the West Indies to form a lesbian nation. Meg Kristen coined the phrase women's music, but she would have liked to say it was lesbian music.

[Mary Ellen McDonald]

And that's kind of the origins of the Combaheever collective.

[Sarah Gabrielli]

You can listen to Cruising on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes air every other Tuesday, starting.

[Mike Carruthers]

February 4th, thanks for explaining all this.

[Rebecca Lamov]

Thanks so much. It was interesting conversation. I appreciate it.

[Mike Carruthers]

If you've had your car insurance for a long time, you might think your loyalty is rewarded by a lower premium. Often it is not. In most states there is a practice called price optimization. Essentially, it is a practice the insurance industry uses to get more money out of customers who are not likely to shop around. They use software that tracks your spending habits, like what you buy at the grocery store, how often you change cable providers, and they use that data to set your rate according to the Consumer Federation of America. Basically, if you think you're not going anywhere, they'll take the risk of hiking up your premium knowing you're not likely to leave. Groups like the Consumer Federation of America have fought this industry practice for some time and and now 18 states and the District of Columbia prohibit price optimization. If you are in a state that still allows it and you call your insurance company and tell them that you want a better rate, you're still not likely to get as good a deal as if you shopped around. So at least when it comes to auto insurance, loyalty can be very one sided. And that is something you should know if if you listen to this podcast on Apple Podcasts Spotify. They have a share button, a share link thing on the app and you can share this episode or any other episode of this podcast with someone you know. And we would appreciate it if you would do that. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.