Jacqueline Nisi (5:46)

Thank you so much for having me.

Mike Carruthers (5:47)

So you hear all the time, people talk about all the time about how we shouldn't be on screen so much that, you know, get off your phone, you're, you're on your screens too much and all that because why? Because what do we know are the real risks, the real dangers? We hear it's bad, but, but I never hear like, how exactly is it bad?

Jacqueline Nisi (6:08)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do think that there broadly is a very negative narrative when it comes to screen time. And I don't know if that is always warranted based on what we know from the research. What we actually know is that it's more of a mixed bag, right? Like the effects of screen time really depend on what's happening during that screen time and on who the person is. You know, people have very different reactions to the same experience on their screens. So there's a lot that goes into it. But when it comes to thinking about the risks of screen time, I would say there's two broad categories of risk. So one is just around the time spent and concerns that that time is getting in the way of other things that are important for our well being. Whether that's, you know, spending time in person with friends or family, or spending time outside being physically active. You know, when screen time starts to really get in the way of those things, then I think that that certainly can be a risk. The other category I would say is around the content we're seeing on our screens. You know, we know that there's a lot happening. For example, when we're scrolling social media, there's a lot we see that maybe is not the best for our well being, is maybe not making us feel our best. And so I think that's another risk as well.

Mike Carruthers (7:32)

That's certainly true that if you're on your screen, you're not doing something else and what else could you be doing?

Jacqueline Nisi (7:39)

Exactly, or maybe you are, but you're not really totally present in whatever that other thing is that you're doing.

Mike Carruthers (7:44)

Well, there, there's a big problem because that drives me crazy. And I'm sure it drives a lot of people crazy when you don't have someone's full attention when you're talking to them and they think it's fine for them to talk to you and be on their phone scrolling or texting to somebody else. I find that so rude. But it's not just rude, it's like, well, I guess it is just rude. It's like you're not important enough to get my undivided attention.

Jacqueline Nisi (8:15)

Yeah, it's funny, there's actually in the research, psychologists have kind of come up with all these different names for that exact phenomenon because it is so common. So there's a word called techno ference, meaning technology and interference. Typically that's used in like parenting work. So where technology is really interfering with interactions that parents are having with their kids. And then there's another term that's kind of funny called phubbing. Which is basically phone and snubbing, meaning typically used in more like partner and friend kind of research. So thinking about when we're on our phones and in the presence of friends or partners, and that is, in some ways, you know, we're snubbing them because we're not giving them our full attention. And there is some evidence that, you know, unsurprisingly, that that experience can have negative impacts on the relationship, on our sense of connection and relationship quality, but also on, you know, our mood and our well being. I think we often think that spending that time on our screens is going to make us feel better or less bored or whatever it might be. But actually it does tend to have a more negative impact on our mood.

Mike Carruthers (9:28)

Well, I think everyone would agree with what you just said because there are times when everybody, I mean, probably even you, likes to just scroll mindlessly through some social media, something for a few minutes. But it's like junk food. It doesn't satisfy anything other than in that very moment, but there's no other satisfaction to it.

Jacqueline Nisi (9:58)

Yeah, there's an interesting study, actually, that came out last year which I think really illustrates this, where it was with college students, and they essentially had college students in a waiting room, like, waiting to what they thought was participate in the actual study. But they, half of the students, they had weight with their phones and half of them, they had weight without their phones. And the students who didn't have their phones thought that they were going to feel worse, thought they were going to be bored. They thought it was going to be awkward kind of waiting around all these other students with no distraction of their phones. But actually, in the end, unsurprisingly, they ended up feeling better. They ended up reporting better mood at the end of the study because they ended up socializing with the people around them and weren't as distracted by their devices. So I think that what we think is going to feel good is not always the thing that ends up actually making us feel good.

Mike Carruthers (10:54)

What did they do instead? Were they just sitting there with their thoughts or were they reading a book or what were they doing?

Jacqueline Nisi (11:02)

No. Yeah, so they provided some kind of entertainment for the students if they wanted it. I remember this particular detail of this study is that they had a giant Jenga game in the room in case students wanted to play and some other stuff around. But for the most part, they were just waiting with other students. So I think it was more about the socializing where they ended up, you know, striking up conversations.

Mike Carruthers (11:26)

Well, that's the thing is Scrolling on your phone is a solitary activity and you can see lots of people together, but they're all on their phones. And so they're not really together and taking advantage or getting the benefits from the socializing part of it. They might as well just be home in their room.

Jacqueline Nisi (11:49)

Yeah. You know, one of the things that we know about, about screen time and phone use is that, you know, as I said before, I think there are ways that it can be done where it can promote our well being and ways where it can really interfere with our well being. And part of that I think really comes down to the social aspects. So if we're using, you know, our phones to promote connection, social connection, whether that's, you know, we're sending a text to a friend to check in on how they're doing, maybe we're sending someone a message to make plans to meet up. Like those kinds of things obviously are going to be, are going to be good, are going to make us feel better. But if we're using our phones in ways that are interfering with social connection, whether that's, you know, we're sitting in our, sitting on our phone scrolling and looking at how much fun everyone else is having on social media, or we're sitting on our phones when we should be interacting with the people around us, those kinds of activities are gonna have a more negative impact.

Mike Carruthers (12:47)

You know, I'm really curious to know because we often talk about how other people inappropriately use their phone or they're on screens too much. But how do people feel about their own use of screens and their own time on the phone? Do they think, yeah, I probably am on it too much, but. Or do they think, no, I've got this under control, it's other people who have the problem. How do people feel about their own participation in this?

Jacqueline Nisi (13:18)

That's a good question. My sense from the research is that there's certainly a good portion of people, I think probably the majority of people who feel like they spend too much time on their screens, I think that that's a pretty common experience. Of course there are plenty of people out there who feel good about their screen use, but I do think it's common for people to feel like they are spending too much time and to, you know, not be, not be happy.

Mike Carruthers (13:46)

About that and yet probably don't do much to remedy a concern that they admit they.

Jacqueline Nisi (13:54)

Yeah, you know, I think that part of what makes us so challenging is that, you know, the screens that we're using right now, phones in particular smartphones, in many cases the apps we're using on those smartphones are really designed to attract our attention, like to be hard to put down, right? Like, we know that there are features of our devices like notifications which sort of ping and remind us to come back to them, or if we're on social media, something like an endless scroll where there's a social media feed. There's no end to the feed and so it makes us just want to keep going. These kinds of things really make it so that we are inclined to use our devices more.

Mike Carruthers (14:38)

I want to ask you if you think that we're at the point now where phones screens are becoming, I don't know, a crutch or a habit maybe? I'm speaking with Jackie Nisi. She is a psychologist and assistant professor at Brown University and she writes the weekly newsletter Technosapiens. Here is a question that has stumped people for decades and may be stumping you right now. What to get mom for Mother's Day Flowers? Chocolate? New dish towels. I'm going to strongly suggest a much better gift. An Aura Frame. Aura is the WI FI connected digital picture frame that showcases your photos and videos. You can add unlimited photos right from your smartphone using the app. We have two of them in our house. It's so much fun to just see those pictures pop up and relive those memories. Not only will mom be grateful that you didn't get her another candle or sweater, she's actually going to love this gift. Aura Frames are one of Oprah's Favorite Things. Plus they have 20,000 five star customer reviews. So instead of all your photos being stored on a hard drive where nobody sees them, now mom can have them display Blade all the time. You know my mom passed away years ago, but we will be seeing pictures of her over Mother's Day weekend popping up on our Aura Frames. So come on, get your mom an Aura Frame. Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver mat frame. That's auraframes.com auraframes promo code something support this show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply and that link is also in the show notes you.

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Mike Carruthers (17:10)

So, Jackie, it does seem to me that especially with young people, that picking up their phone is a habit. It's like they can't not do it. Go to a doctor's office and people are in the waiting room. And I actually went to a doctor not long ago and was struck by this woman who was sitting there reading a real book. And I thought, wow, look at her.

Jacqueline Nisi (17:34)

That's so rare.

Mike Carruthers (17:36)

But in the old days, you know, doctors used to put magazines in their waiting rooms because that's what people did to pass the time. Now it's just habit. You sit down, you whip out your phone and you stare at it until they call your name.

Jacqueline Nisi (17:52)

Yeah, I think a lot of our use is really. Yeah, as you're saying, really habitual, really sort of mindless. It's not necessarily a choice we're making always to pick up our phone or to do a certain activity on our phone. It's really more that it's just automatic at this point. We've sort of gotten in the habit of using it a certain way. That's one reason why I think that, you know, one thing, one first step we can take to try to improve our relationships with our devices is to think about using it more mindfully. So less mind. Lessly and more mindfully meaning just taking a step back and really trying to be aware of the times when we reach for our phones. You know, that sort of automatic unlocking behavior that so many of us do and really trying to think about, about when we're using it and why. Like what, what's the purpose?

Mike Carruthers (18:45)

So that's a good. Probably a good place to start is to start thinking about why you're using it. But what else? Because that's a great idea, but it's a little vague. It's like, well, be more mindful. But I'm sitting here and I have nothing to do, so I'm going to whip out my phone. But what's the plan? What's a way to approach this?

Jacqueline Nisi (19:09)

Yeah, it's a great question, I think. So the first thing, of course, is to be aware, to know, like, think about when we're turning to our device, what exactly we're doing on there and when that's feeling like a problem to us. Right. So for many people, this is something like they're happy to use their Phone for utilities, things like Google Maps to get directions somewhere or they want to be able to make phone calls, things like that that are more utilities even like they want to be able to listen to a podcast like this one, or to music. So maybe those are things that they, they want to be able to do on their phone. They appreciate that they don't feel like it's getting in the way. But then there are other activities they might start to recognize are sort of the culprits for things that are not making them feel as good. For many people, that's things like mindlessly scrolling social media or maybe automatically, you know, reflexively checking email or checking a news app. Those kinds of things tend to come up a lot. But there are also a lot of tools that you can use. You know, on the iPhone there is the screen time setting. You can go into your screen time settings, you can set time limits on certain apps, or you can block apps at different times of day using settings like downtime. Android devices also have a similar feature through their digital well being tools. And then the other thing I would say is just outside of the sort of like technical side of things, there are things you can do just in your day to day habits as well to try to reduce your mindless use, if that's what you're looking to do. So you can try to set phone free times of day, whether that's meals or other times. You can try to set phone free locations of your house. So certain places where maybe you decide you're not going to use your phone, certain rooms or maybe on the couch or something like that. I think you can talk to your family and friends about what sort of the phone guidelines are going to be when you're spending time with each other. And that can go a long way.

Mike Carruthers (21:16)

My guess is as wonderful as those recommendations are, people just don't do them. It would be very hard for me to imagine to alter my use using those suggestions you just made. I'll just take care of it myself. And I imagine most people don't follow those recommendations.

Jacqueline Nisi (21:40)

People do find it very hard to do this kind of thing. So in many of the studies that ask people to reduce their use of their phones or of social media, the compliance is somewhat low. Meaning that it's hard to get people to do this. It's just, yeah, it's just tricky for a lot of people. But in most cases they do find that when people stick to it, when people do it, they do end up reporting improvements in mood and well being and other factors. So it can certainly make a difference.

Unknown (22:16)

Well, I've had that.

Jacqueline Nisi (22:18)

The other thing I would note that can make a big difference in terms of well being is trying to reduce phone use around sleep. We know that our device use can really interfere with sleep when it's keeping us awake at night. One thing that seems very simple but can make a big difference is charging phones outside of the bedroom when you go to sleep. And there is some evidence that that can improve both the length and the quality of people's sleep.

Mike Carruthers (22:48)

Even though you're not on it, it's just not in the room. So you can't be. Well, what is that?

Jacqueline Nisi (22:54)

Right? Well, I think when it's in the room, the problem is that there's too much temptation for many people to grab it. So if you, you know, or maybe it's making noises in the middle of the night, that's waking you up, or, you know, if you can't fall asleep or you wake up in the middle of the night, you reflexively go to check it and then that keeps you awake longer. So sort of having it out of sight, out of mind can, can make a big difference.

Mike Carruthers (23:17)

Well, one of the big concerns about screen time that you hear was probably the first big concern is about kids and, and video games and, and all of that. Where are we, what does the research say about all that? Is it, is it.

Jacqueline Nisi (23:33)

Yeah.

Mike Carruthers (23:33)

Horrible or not or what?

Jacqueline Nisi (23:36)

Yeah. So with video games, I think that where the research stands right now is that, unsurprisingly, it, it depends. Right. It depends on who the kids are. Kids are affected in very different ways when they're using video games. It depends on what exactly is happening in those video games. Generally, you know, there was a big concern for a while about violence in video games. Generally, the research does not support any long term links between playing violent video games and, you know, violent or aggressive outcomes in the long term. So, so some of that concern, I think has been somewhat overblown. That said, I think there's good reason for parents to be aware of the kinds of things that their kids are being exposed to in video games.

Mike Carruthers (24:27)

Here's something I think a lot of people wonder about because for decades people have gone to bed, watched TV and then gone to sleep. I haven't heard a whole lot about that being a problem, but there's a lot of caution about looking at a screen like a phone or a tablet before bed that that screws up your sleep. What's the difference between the TV and the screen? The computer screen?

Jacqueline Nisi (24:54)

Yeah. So I think in Terms of the actual technology and the effects, there's nothing specific about a phone or a tablet that's inherently worse than a tv, right? Like it's still a screen that's being watched and that's it. I think the, you know, practically there are some differences. So with a tablet or a phone, obviously you're not having the same experience of, with a tv. You turn it off and it's off, and that's sort of it. And then you get up and you walk away. With a tablet or a phone, of course it, it often comes with you. And so that makes it just a different experience in terms of the ease of, of putting it away, of stopping to use it. The activities that you do on a phone versus or a, or a tablet versus a TV also sometimes differ. You know, so you might be using more social media or other apps on a phone versus on a tv. Maybe you're watching more shows. And with a TV show it tends to have more of a definitive endpoint, like an episode ends. And that's kind of the end versus when you're scrolling on social media, it sort of can continue on forever.

Mike Carruthers (26:10)

Well, it's a topic that is the subject of a lot of conversation and concern, maybe especially for parents, but it's a topic, I think that everyone's concerned about how much time we're spending on screens and what we're not doing because we're spending so much time on screens. Jackie Nisi's been my guest. She's a psychologist, an assistant professor at Brown University, and she writes a popular weekly newsletter called Technosapiens. And if you'd like more information to that, there's a link to Techno Sapiens in the show Notes for this episode. Jackie, thank you for coming on and talking about this.

Jacqueline Nisi (26:49)

All right, thank you so much, Mike.

Mike Carruthers (26:51)

We talk quite a bit about health on this podcast and I can tell you I try to take care of myself. I mean, I work at it. And for a while now I've been taking this supplement called Mitopure and I can tell you I feel stronger when I exercise. I recover faster. What Mitopure is, is a precise dose of something called Uroliphon A. I've read a lot about it. It's a natural compound that's produced by gut bacteria. And Mitopure is this precise dose that encourages cellular renewal. Mitopure is the only Urolithin a supplement on the market clinically proven to target the effects of age related cellular decline. And that's the thing, See, it works on the cellular level and with regular use you'll see and feel the difference in the form of improved energy levels, more endurance and when you exercise you'll recover faster. As you get older you probably know that you lose muscle strength, so this is important. Mitopure is shown to deliver double digit increases in muscle strength and endurance without a change in exercise. So awaken the strength, power and resilience already in you with the first and only supplement clinically proven to rejuvenate health at the cellular level. I encourage you to read more about it on their website. Timeline is offering 10% off your order of Mitopure. Go to timeline.com something that's T I M E L-I-N-E.com something I am a food lover. I love to cook. I've collected probably 100 cookbooks over the years. Good food is important to me. But some days I can't cook or I just don't want to cook. But I still want to eat well. Which is why I love and want to tell you about Factor Meals. Factor Meals are freshly prepared meals delivered to your door. And to be clear, these are not frozen meals. This is not a kit of ingredients that you have to make. These meals are complete restaurant quality meals. You simply heat them up for two minutes. Eating well has never been this easy. They have 45 weekly menu options. You can pick gourmet meals that fit your goals. Choose from Calorie Smart Protein Plus, Keto Vegetarian and more meals like Ginger Teriyaki Salmon, Cheesy Chicken and Broccoli Casserole, Garlic Rosemary Pork Chops. What we do at our house is we serve the food on nice plates, maybe with a glass of wine and and I swear you would think you're eating at a fine restaurant. The food is really that good. Factor also offers satisfying breakfasts, lunches and guilt free snacks and desserts. So look, here's an offer that makes this easy to give it a try. Get started@factormeals.com something 50 off and use code something50OFF to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code something50OFF@factormeals.com something50OFF for 50% off plus free shipping and I'll put that promo code in the show notes. How the human body works is so fascinating and so complicated from how we use food for fuel, how and why we age and can't live forever, why we sleep, why we have to sleep. Yet sleep leaves us vulnerable to so many things, how our immune system keeps us alive and how evolution changes us ever so slowly. Here to explain some of these intricate bodily systems and how we can keep them working smoothly is Dr. Dara Ennis. He is a scientist and researcher who has worked at both the University of Oxford and the University of Glasgow. He is author of a book called the 10 Things yous Should Know. Hi Dara. Welcome to Something youg Should Know.

Dara Ennis (30:58)

Thanks very much for having me.

Mike Carruthers (31:00)

So the human body, our bodies, like every other living thing, gets older and ultimately dies. From a scientific point of view, why must that be? Do we know why that is? And because it seems like we, we certainly live longer than we used to, but, but ultimately we die.

Dara Ennis (31:22)

Well, the why do we age? Is certainly a question with an answer. You know, there's very deep rooted ways that our cells and the cells of all living things work that makes them age. And one of the main things, as you know, anybody who works on aging will understand is that our DNA, the code that makes us what we are and are the instructions for us being alive, has a lifespan in and of itself. So, you know, every high school student knows that DNA gets copied, but what they don't realize is every time it gets copied, that copy is only a tiny fraction smaller than the original and eventually it's too small and it just goes away, you know. So that in itself is a limit. It's a ticking clock and there's nothing we can do about it. So yeah, that, that's a, that's a bit of a problem for people who want to live forever, I'm afraid.

Mike Carruthers (32:13)

But even people who get older and die from diseases that are normally associated with old age die at different ages. Some people die in their 70s or their 80s or 90s, and some people make it even longer than that. So there is a clock because ultimately nobody gets any older than whatever the maximum age is. But there is a clock.

Dara Ennis (32:37)

Well, it's a maximum clock. So the. Most people don't reach that. That isn't the, the sort of critical factor in what ends up, you know, finishing us off essentially. So we'll all get old and we'll all age, but there are other factors that will damage our cells, damage our DNA. You know, exposure to sunlight makes our skin look older, other lifestyle choices, what we eat, you know, what we do, how much exercise we take, how happy we are, how stressed we are. So it can even be a case of you can sort of think yourself young. And that is literally going to be physiologically true because stress responses age. Our cells and aged cells go into a state called senescence, which is effectively where they shut down and start to die off, and that's contagious. Other cells around it can pick it up. And the stress response is a big factor in senescence. So if you're a very stressed out person with a bad lifestyle, you're going to age a lot quicker than someone who's just happy, go lucky and looks after themselves. So you can maximize your chances of being younger for longer. But not forever.

Mike Carruthers (33:45)

It's never forever, is it?

Dara Ennis (33:47)

Unfortunately, no.

Mike Carruthers (33:48)

No. So let's talk about blood and how blood gets circulated all throughout the body, how that all works.

Dara Ennis (33:58)

Well, it's driven, obviously by the heart, but our blood vessels are quite elastic and they swell and shrink as the pulse rate from your heart comes. So that elastic motion helps maintain blood pressure. And it's the pressure of the system that keeps it all moving. So if you have a very closely pressurized system and a pump, it means that it can reach right to the end of these tiny capillaries that are, you know, potentially a couple of meters away or a meter and a bit away from your heart. And yeah, it's just, it's a constant pressurized system with a constant flow. It's astonishingly efficient considering it's driven by, you know, a lump of muscle about the size of her fist that doesn't make very much noise. If you ever see how much noise and energy a water pump uses that to pump something that long. It's. It's massively more efficient. Evolution beats engineering every time.

Mike Carruthers (34:51)

So it seems like a big question, but since you tackle it, this whole idea of about getting and using energy, how food becomes energy, how we spend energy, I never really. I get that it happens, but I'm not sure I have any idea how it happens.

Dara Ennis (35:09)

The main thing to remember is that, you know, by the laws of physics, you can't make energy. You just change its form. That's all you do. You just mess about with the structure of it. So energy can't be made, it can't be destroyed. So we take the energy from chemical bonds in our food and we just put it into a system that our cells can use. And it's, it's really, really clever and massively efficient how it does so. And it's largely driven by mitochondria, which are small organelles in our cells. And the fun thing is, most scientists think that they were originally independent organisms way back in our evolution when we were like single cells that were eaten essentially, but survived. And because they were so good at providing energy, they've become part of our, our Setup. So they're an alien life form that over tens of millions of years has just come along with living animals and helps them provide their energy. So that massively makes it more efficient. And yeah, it's, it's just, it's a series of different reactions that make food energy into the energy that our cells can use. And it's amazing. It's astounding to be honest.

Mike Carruthers (36:16)

So you've mentioned a few times how, you know, this is amazing and this is really efficient and, and my guess is that these systems get that way over time through evolution. But I don't know that we really understand. I don't think evolution works the way people think it does.

Dara Ennis (36:33)

No, no, I do quite a lot of, you know, public events and things and people ask me science questions and I love that, I really do, because it's my. But a lot of people say things like, oh, you know, in 10, 000 years will we have much longer fingers because we type. And that's how evolution works. And it really isn't. Evolution only works if something makes you more likely to survive and have children. Those two things have to be together. So if it doesn't make you more likely to reproduce, then evolution throws it away and that's it. And it's random, completely random. But over enough time it will eventually, you know, get us from one of those single celled organisms to the one that can get the bus to work. But the amount of time is absolutely immense. You know, you're talking tens or possibly even over hundreds of millions of years.

Mike Carruthers (37:25)

Well, that phrase you used about evolution throws it away. I think that's where people get confused that it isn't like one morning the heavens say, well, you know, we're not going to need a tail anymore, so let's just knock that off because we don't need that. It doesn't work that way.

Dara Ennis (37:44)

Very rarely, like you will occasionally get a very bizarre mutation that will completely change an animal. It will change its color or it will do something really, really weird to it. But yes, most of the time the change is extremely gradual. And quite often it's because there's a cost to everything. So the having any part of your body or doing any action or anything, producing anything, costs the cells in your body something. You know, you have to make the proteins, you have to do all of this kind of thing or there is a cost, as in it makes you more likely that another animal will eat you, or it makes you less likely to reproduce. And if you're in a competitive environment and you, you as an animal change color, you know, you get a red stripe or something and suddenly that means the females are no longer interested in you. They're not going to mate with you because you've got this red stripe that's never going to be passed on because you don't reproduce and the mutation disappears and it's just literally thrown away from the population. But if it's the other way and the red stripe suddenly means all the females are interested in you, then gradually over time you'll speciate, so you'll become the red striped version of your, of your animal and you'll produce lots and lots of children and that's it. It's purely, this is the bit that people don't understand. It's, it's not about growing bigger teeth to fight off the predators. It's just about are you going to survive long enough to pass those genes on. And they're kind of like, you know, memes or viral things on the Internet, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to be good, it doesn't necessarily have to be brilliant, it just has to be popular and that's it.

Mike Carruthers (39:17)

Why do we sleep?

Dara Ennis (39:19)

Oh, that's a weird one, isn't it? So by any logical sense, anything that you think about an animal going to sleep is a terrible idea. Like it's so bad for it, it makes you completely vulnerable. And you would think that evolution of all things, this really strict, you know, filter that takes away anything that's dangerous will get rid of sleep, but it just can't. It seems to be deeply inbuilt into not just humans, but like almost all animals, like flies sleep, fish sleep, dolphins and whales sleep, even though they're like, they have to, you know, breathe and all this kind of thing underwater. And it seems so inbuilt to how our nervous systems specifically work that we can't get rid of it. So the cost of getting rid of it is way too high. And if you ever meet someone who's sleep deprived, you very quickly realize why. Because it just messes with us so badly.

Mike Carruthers (40:15)

So it must do something really, really special for us to devote that much of our life to it.

Dara Ennis (40:21)

Oh, it absolutely does. So our brain function completely relies on sleep. So we can't get completely to the bottom of this very easily because the ethical considerations of doing sleep deprivation studies means that they very rarely go past two or three days without sleep because it's so bad for you. But in the ones that they have done are ones where people have had medical problems that kept Them awake, you. You lose all critical function, your brain stops working completely. It's almost like you've been drinking. You know, it's. It's that kind of level of, of loss of motor control. You become emotionally problematic, you start overeating because your hormone system stop working properly. And a really key thing as well is that your brain washes itself at night time. So there's been studies where they've watched people when they're going to sleep through MRIs and, and cat scanners and things, and they've seen pulses of cerebral spinal fluid going over the brain during sleep. And they really think that this downtime, this maintenance time of sleep helps remove, you know, bad things for your brain, toxin buildup, but especially things like misfolded proteins. So misfolded proteins can lead to Parkinson's disease, to dementia, and all sorts of other neurological problems. And without sleep, it's not able to do that because our brain is just so busy all of the time when we're awake. It's always got so much to do that it can't have maintenance. So effectively, sleep is brain maintenance mode. You need to let the janitors in to clean up.

Mike Carruthers (41:53)

So here's. I'm so glad you tackle this in your book, because how many times have we heard about how the body defends itself, that you have an immune system, but nobody knows what that means or how it works. It's just, well, I didn't get a cold and he did, because my body defended itself. But how. I don't know what that means.

Dara Ennis (42:17)

Yeah, I think a lot of people, especially since the pandemic, got a very skewed and peripheral idea of what the immune system is and what it does, because it was kind of covered on the news, but never in depth. And I've always used analogies to explain things to people. And I think a great way to look at it is like a security system with guards. And you've got two different systems. One is your innate system, which just works away on its own. And it's. If it finds anything foreign, it'll attack it and it'll run a fever and it will provoke that kind of immune response very, very quickly. But then you've got your adaptive immune system, which is why we become immune to things. So this is. If it sees something it recognizes from before, it will instantly find it and attack it. It's way more efficient. But you have to have been exposed to it before. And that's the whole reason why vaccines work, is because vaccines prime that innate system. It's Kind of like giving your security guards a wanted poster going, if this guy comes along, you make sure you catch him real quick. And a lot of people don't understand how it works. There's a lot of disinformation out there because there's a lot of money to be made trying to tell people that they can not catch a common cold if they take this supplement and things, but most of it's nonsense.

Mike Carruthers (43:34)

But is it your immune system? When you cut yourself and the cut.

Dara Ennis (43:38)

Heals, it's a mixture. So your skin is one of your best defenses. Actually, we're constantly bombarded by viruses and bacteria and funguses, and people don't realize this because they're so small, and almost all of them land on your skin and die. You know, if you're a scientist and you're doing microbiology, you have to, you know, sterilize everything and have a flow of sterile air, or you have to have a Bunsen burner to. To make the air above your station rise up and keep all of the spores and all the bacteria off it, because they're everywhere. They're ubiquitous. And if you caught yourself, you open the gates, you know, so your immune system makes sure it doesn't get infected, and then your body repairs it in a different way. So it's not your immune system fixing the cut, but it's making sure that nothing gets into that cut that will make it infected. And that's way more important, to be honest, because infections until relatively recently, in human sort of technology, an infection like that could kill you. Because once they're in, that's when these guys, the bacteria and things, cause such trouble.

Mike Carruthers (44:46)

But going back to, like, catching a cold, there are some people who seem to get sicker more often than others, exposed to more or less the same things. And, you know, my wife, who works in a hospital, she never gets sick. And so the assumption is, well, she doesn't get sick because she's been exposed to so many illnesses that she's built up this immunity to it. I don't know if that's true, but she never gets sick.

Dara Ennis (45:14)

Part of it is. So having an exposure on a constant basis boosts your immune system. You know, your. Your adaptive immune system recognizes more pathogens. You're more primed to do it. But I know this is going to sound a little gross, but a very large part of the reason why healthcare professionals don't get sick is because they wash their hands properly. You know, if you're working in a. In a healthcare environment, you're probably Very carefully washing your hands for a minute or two minutes at a time, maybe 20 times a day. That's a very large reason why we get sick, is because we pick up things or we shake hands with someone or we touch the door handle and then we rub our eyes or, you know, we pick something out of our teeth and it gets into our body and it escapes. But, yeah, there's a little bit of a boosted immune system to it, but some of it's just practice, good practice.

Mike Carruthers (46:02)

What's one thing about the body that you think people maybe don't understand as well as they should, or there's a lot of misinformation about it? I mean, you're out speaking to people all the time. What is it you think, if anything, there is confusion about?

Dara Ennis (46:17)

I think one thing that a lot of people get wrong is nutrition. There's so much commercial pressure from companies who are trying to sell what are considered healthy food. And a lot of people don't understand the genuine need for a healthy diet to keep yourself healthy. And they don't understand that a lot of the things, the supplements, they. They're being sold or, you know, the miracle food thing, it. A lot of it is nonsense or it's marginal at best. So you have people who, you know, will take some miracle, you know, powdered seaweed supplement, but then will eat nothing but fast food. And they're wondering why they're not, like, doing. Well, the overriding dietary advice since probably for a century is to eat a wide, varied, balanced diet that's largely based on fruit and vegetables, fresh fruit and vegetables. And I don't know if they did it in the us, but in the UK and Ireland, they said five portions a day. That's what they said. If you have five portions of fresh fruit and veg a day, that's a good start. It was actually meant to be 10, but they realized if they told people they had to eat 10 different fruits and vegetables a day, they would just say, no, we're just going to give up. So five is kind of the bare minimum. And almost nobody eats five portions of fresh fruit and veg a day.

Mike Carruthers (47:38)

Almost never. No. Yeah, nobody does. Who does?

Dara Ennis (47:41)

Yeah, nobody does. But that if you really, genuinely want to have a healthy diet, it's eat almost no processed food, and almost everything is processed food, which is a big problem. But base it on fresh fruit and veg and cook things yourself from scratch where possible. But that's not achievable in the modern world, unfortunately. So, you know, I wish there was some Fun way of, of saying a healthy diet. But unfortunately, healthy diets are what doctors have been telling us for since like the 1920s.

Mike Carruthers (48:10)

And lastly, what happens when we die.

Dara Ennis (48:14)

So this is one I wanted to do, and I wasn't sure that, you know, people would want to read it, but it's actually turned out to be great. It's been very popular. And I don't mean this in a spiritual way, if anybody's thinking that way. This is what happens to your body when you die. Because a lot of people, there's big taboos about death. And, you know, we. We like to pretend that things don't happen, but our bodies go away. They're gone. They're gone fairly soon, unless you're in very specific circumstances within a few decades. There's only slight remains of bone, some hair and, you know, some fillings, or if you've got a metal implant or something, that's all that's left. And that process is, I. I think, fascinating. You know, what happens when you stop being a person and you suddenly become a body, Literally a body. And I think a lot of people don't realize what does happen to your body. And some of the fun things, well, fun, interesting things are that not all of your cells will die at the same rate. So, you know, your brain cells die almost straight away because they need so much energy and so much oxygen. But your immune cells can last for days and days. You could have a dead body and you'd have little white blood cells four or five days later just drifting around and. And not realizing that the body is dead because, well, they're not sentient, so they'll never realize. But yeah, I thought it was. It was important for people to. To address this because I think we shy away from it because it's a difficult subject.

Mike Carruthers (49:42)

Well, I know I've certainly learned a lot and understand things about how the human body functions that I didn't know before. I've been talking with Dr. Dara Ennis. He is a scientist and researcher and author of the book the 10 things you should know. There's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Dara, thanks for coming on and talking about this.

Dara Ennis (50:03)

Well, thanks very much for having me, Mike. It was brilliant talking to you. I really enjoyed it.

Mike Carruthers (50:10)

Of course, you know that talking on a cell phone when you're driving is a bad idea because it's very distracting. But it turns out that driving a car while your passengers are talking on a cell phone is also very distracting. In fact, listening to anybody talk on a cell phone is distracting because you're only hearing half of the conversation. It's called a halfalog, and it reduces your cognitive function. So, for example, if you're driving in your car and someone else in the car is talking on the phone, it's almost impossible to tune it out. So your brain is frantically trying to make sense of a conversation where you're only hearing half of it. The researchers that did the study point out that when we overhear a conversation normally, we actively try to predict how the conversation will go. And when you only hear one side of the conversation, your brain has to work harder to do what is, you know, pretty much impossible. So with less of your brain available to focus on driving, you're more at risk for an accident, which is a good reason for everyone in the car not to talk on their phones. And that is something you should know. Something youg Should Know is produced by Jeffrey Havison, Jennifer Brennan, and our executive producer is Ken Williams. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to something you should know.

Unknown (51:37)

I'm Amy Nicholson, the film critic for the LA Times.

Mike Carruthers (51:40)

And I'm Paul Scheer, an actor, writer and director. You might know me from the League.

Dara Ennis (51:44)

Veep, or my non eligible for Academy Award role in Twisters.

Unknown (51:49)

We love movies and we come at them from different perspectives.

Dara Ennis (51:53)

Yeah, like Amy thinks that, you know, Joe Pesci was miscast in Goodfellas and.

Mike Carruthers (51:57)

I don't he's too old.

Dara Ennis (51:59)

Let's not forget that Paul thinks that.

Jacqueline Nisi (52:00)

Dune 2 is overrated.

Dara Ennis (52:02)

It is.

Unknown (52:04)

Anyway, despite this, we come together to host Unspooled, a podcast where we talk.

Dara Ennis (52:08)

About good movies, critical hits, fan favorites, must sees, and in case you missed.

Unknown (52:12)

Ems, we're talking the Home Alone.

Dara Ennis (52:14)

From Grease to the Dark Knight.

Unknown (52:16)

We've done deep dives on popcorn flicks. We've talked about why Independence Day deserves a second look.

Dara Ennis (52:21)

And we've talked about horror movies, some that you've never even heard of, like Ganja and Hess.

Unknown (52:25)

So if you love movies like we do, come along on our cinematic adventure.

Dara Ennis (52:28)

Listen to unspooled, wherever you get your.

Unknown (52:30)

Podcasts, and don't forget to hit the follow button. Have you ever heard about the 19th century French actress with so many lovers that they formed a lovers union? Or what about the aboriginal Australian bandit who faked going into labor just to escape the police? Which she did escape from them. It was a great plan. How about the French queen who murdered her rival with poison gloves? I'm Anne Foster, host of the Feminist Women's history comedy podcast, Vulgar History. Every week I share the saga of a woman from history whose story you probably didn't already know and you will never forget after you hear it. Sometimes we reexamine well known people like Cleopatra or Pocahontas, sharing the truth behind their legends. Sometimes we look at the scandalous women you'll never find in a history textbook. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts. And if you're curious, the people I was talking about before the Australian woman is named Marianne Bug and the French actress was named Rochelle no less. Name just Rochelle. And the queen who poisoned her rival is Catherine de Medici. I have episodes about all of them.