← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Collective Unconscious: Connecting with Humanity's Shared Wisdom
00:39:11
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Jung on purpose with CreativeMind, hosted by Deborah and Dr. Rob Maldonado, creators of the NeuroMindra coaching method based on Jungian psychology, non dual spirituality and social neuroscience. Join us each week as we explore personal growth for purpose seekers and the incredible inner journey of becoming your true self. Let's get started. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Jung on Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.
- [00:40]
B
I'm Dr. Rob. Welcome to the program.
- [00:43]
A
We are excited that you're here. Today we're going to talk about the collective unconscious, Jung's amazing contribution to psychology and culture. And we're going to dive into that today. But before we begin, I do want to remind you, if you're listening to us on any of the podcast services, don't forget to subscribe. And if you're watching us on YouTube, there's a little button in the corner. You can subscribe to our channel and watch every video of our podcast and other videos there too. Okay. So the collective unconscious.
- [01:17]
B
Yes.
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A
What is it and why do we need it and how do we work with it?
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B
Where is it?
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A
All those questions.
- [01:24]
B
Where can we buy some?
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A
Where can we get some? Do you get a collective unconscious? Do some people have it?
- [01:30]
B
Yeah. So if you've ever wondered what is the depth in depth psychology? This is as deep as it goes. The collective unconscious would be the deepest part of our psyche. And of course, we'll talk more about what it. What that means. But if you think about your personal life, you. You can experience your. Your psychology, right? Your psyche directly. You have dreams, you remember, you have memories, you reason out problems, you make decisions, you use intuition, logic, reason, et cetera, emotions. All that is a personal experience. But there's a. There's a show right now that is showing on Hulu. Is it the Pluribus?
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A
It's on Apple tv.
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B
It's on Apple TV with Rhea Seehorn, who we.
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A
I love.
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B
We're not sponsored by them or anything. No, but in. In that show, this person is surrounded by people that have joined a collective psyche in a sense where they all act as one organism. So, yeah, kind of the hive where she is still kind of in her personal space. Right. And it's very obvious that these people are experiencing something different. So the collective unconscious is kind of related to that. I'm not saying it's. It's a hive mentality, but it's something that we all contribute to, that all individuals have input into as well as have output sources for, in other words, we can all, as individuals, draw upon the Collective unconscious and receive information, messages, symbols from that collective unconscious.
- [03:27]
A
So I've heard this term, and I would love for you to make a distinction, if there is one, where people talk about the collective consciousness. There's a, you know, consciousness in the planet. And we want to raise that consciousness and the collective consciousness to have more love and peace, which is a beautiful, beautiful idea. And I think that's that kind of idea. That Pluribus is trying to say that there's this, like, utopian society, that we can all have this beautiful consciousness together. And so what's the difference between what people refer to as the collective consciousness and the collective unconscious, if there's any difference?
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B
There's a big difference. Yeah.
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A
Okay.
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B
Because between conscious and unconscious, we know the difference that the conscious mind is apparent to us. We can observe it, and we're experiencing it directly. So right now you're conscious. Right. If you're listening to this, you're in your conscious state. The unconscious is working beneath the behind the curtains, in a sense. You're not able to observe it. Although your brain is processing information about your heart rate, your temperature, your breathing. All this is going on unconsciously to you, meaning you're not able to observe it and you don't really want to observe it. It's simply doing its job. But that. That's a simplified version because in Jung's model, the collective unconscious has its own intelligence and its own language. What is that language? The language is symbolism. We see it in dreams sometimes where. When we dream about things that we don't experience in our everyday life, yet these symbols appear to us very vividly, very powerfully in dreams and as well as in visions and religious or spiritual experiences. Some of you that are going to South America to experience ayahuasca, what you're experiencing. Yeah, in part, you're experiencing the collective unconscious. It's. It's showing you that we have very clear access to the collective unconscious. Now, why is it unfamiliar to most of us? It's because we are so focused on our personal unconscious or our personal psyche that it becomes like our. Our main project.
- [05:54]
A
It's so easy. It's because I think it's easier to relate to. Like, I could talk about my family history and my family and. And actually, I want to say that actually what. What most people, I would say predominantly on the planet that don't do any kind of inner work, they're only living on the conscious level at all. They're not even exploring the personal unconscious. So there's the people that are on the surface thinking, if I just change what I do or think on the surface, I'll change. And then there's the people that are doing the inner work on the personal, and then where we go deeper into the collective. So the personal is. So there's so much that we can do there. I mean, there's so much to fix. Right. We have all these insecurities and parts of our life we want to push away and unfulfilled parts of our life that we want to compensate for. And childhood upbringing so filled with information that we would. Could spend our whole lifetime working on.
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B
Yeah. It is a conundrum for most of us because it's. The individual self appears to be the most real for us. Like, the things that we experience directly through our senses appear to us to be the most real in the sense that we. We can touch them and feel them. And if we go back, there's some of the things are still there, those kind of things. Um, you know, I went back to my childhood home to look for it a few years back, and sure enough, there it was. The way I remembered it, more. More or less, it seemed a lot smaller. I know at the time, the backyard.
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A
Was so big when you were a kid, and really was not that.
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B
Okay, there it is. Right. I was actually here and experienced these things. Yes. But anyone that works with the mind for a period of time like we have, we start to get the sense that the individual, the individual life is really a mental construct that doesn't really exist. So what do we mean?
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A
That is kind of interesting. So tell me more about that, because I could tell you people will say, I remember this. This actually happened. You can't say it doesn't exist.
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B
Yes. For one, we know more from neuroscience now about perception. And what appears to us to be like a verified reality or an actual direct experience of reality is really mentally constructed. Right. It appears to us as if we're observing something that is happening. Absolutely. In other words, the way we're perceiving it, that's the way it's happening. Absolutely. There's no question about it. But that's an appearance.
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A
Just like a dream.
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B
Very much like a dream. What we are deciphering from the experience is a mental interpretation. Totally mental. Now, it doesn't mean it's not real. It's real in the mental sense. In other words, it's happening to us, but it's happening to us as a mental experience, not as a concrete physical experience out there. And therefore, we can say it's an interpretation. Confidence. We can say it is an interpretation, not a direct perception of reality.
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A
Well, we see people. Two people can look at a crime and one person could see one thing and the other person sees it from another angle. They would say that this is looking at the evidence, but they're seeing what their mind is pouring into that experience or that perception.
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B
That's right.
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A
And especially if you. You have an assumption of that. Here's a perfect example. Yeah, I worked with a lot of single people in my day, and someone would say, oh, you know, I went on this date and this guy was very selfish. He didn't offer to pay to pay for the full bill. He asked to split it. So he doesn't respect me. He doesn't, you know, want to be giving. He's not very generous and he's cheap and all these things. But maybe he was thinking, I don't want to insult her by offering to pay, you know, so it's. This meant we. We see the event that happens and. And two different people can perceive it. Maybe he was cheap. But we're making all these assumptions into that experience and then cutting people out of our life because we're projecting what we believe is happening out there without asking and questioning, am I really seeing this? Or. And this is all the personal unconscious. We. We learn to see things the way we were conditioned to see things. Is that what you're saying?
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B
Well, the personal conscious, I'd say, yeah. In other words, it's a. It's our personal experience, and we remember it as the way we kind of recorded it originally.
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A
Yeah, but if it's recorded in the unconscious, there's something unconscious about it. Wouldn't it there be.
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B
Yes. Memories can become unconscious. Most of. I'd say most of our life is unconscious because we. We don't remember every detail. There. There are individuals, though, that report memorizing or remembering every day of their lives.
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A
That's the girl from Taxi. Yeah, the woman who played the woman on Taxi. She could give her a date and she could tell you exactly what happened on that day.
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B
That's. They're outliers. Right. In statistics, we would say those are outliers that don't really represent the. The whole experience.
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A
But we were talking about the mental experience. And so that's sort of what we. You're talking about, but even more so that that person is a mental construct of what we. We think they are.
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B
Yeah. So this was well understood in Eastern philosophy many thousands of years ago. And they call this. This is the playing a little loose with. With the Philosophy, but it's samsara or the term they, that they have for this is samsara, meaning the experience of your life is not an absolute reality. It is a story, a narrative that your mind, your, Your brain mind is constructing to give your, Your life meaning and cohesion. Like, Like I'm on a journey, right? I'm on a path. I'm, I'm following this career, or I'm doing this kind of work and my children are growing up this way and that way. All that is a narrative. Is it really happening that way? Nobody really knows. Right. Because all we have is kind of that narrative to, to give kind of parts to all the pieces of our life.
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A
Well, we talked about the shadow in the last episode. So that narrative is really driven by the ego that is making you look like the good guy or kind of like confirmation bias of who you are and what you assume before.
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B
That's right. You can play many roles, of course, within that narrative. You could be the hero or the victim or any, Anything in between. But the important understanding philosophically is that what that means for our lives is that we're not living in a. In a direct experience of the truth. We're living essentially in a dreamlike experience of our own making. So that's samsara in that we, if we ask, where does my suffering arise from? Like, where does my heartache, my sense of loss, my. When I get depressed, when I get anxious, where is it coming from? From that narrative? It's coming from my own illusory appearance of, of my life in my mind. So that, that is the definition of samsara, let's say psychologically again, and I'm, I'm playing fast and loose, but it is a correspondence to what the ancient seers of the Upanishads talk about as Samsara. It's your individual bubble of existence where all your emotional happenings are occurring. So they're not.
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A
So if you just focus on that, you're working on creating another delusion. Or is that what you're saying about if you just work on the personal level?
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B
Very much so that if you stay at the personal level, you're essentially locked into a pattern of seeing your life in a particular way and experiencing your life in that particular way and that, you know, I guess if you're happy there, that's fine. But most of us aren't happy in, in that sense because we see that it's. It's full of pain and suffering as well as great events in our life and experiences. But that it's the, for us, the ultimate, the ultimate point that leads us to seek something else is that it's telling us it's not a reality, it's not an absolute reality. It's, it's an appearance again, meaning it could change. And we see that it changes right in our individual life. When we look back at our childhood, it continually continuously changes as we get older, wiser, hopefully. And, and we look back at our childhood in different ways. So it's not a reality. That, that's the key. So the question then becomes, what is real?
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A
Tell us, Dr.
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B
Rob, what is reality?
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A
What is reality?
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B
In a nutshell, what I wanted to do is think about, you know, because we're talking of the collective unconscious, which is a Jungian term. How does that compare to that philosophy that grew out of the Upanishads and what it says about reality? And compare the two, right? Because now when we look at these two things, then we have the big picture of the Western psychology and depth psychology in particular, and the Eastern philosophy of non dualism. And what, how we can compare both.
- [16:24]
A
Would you say that the idea of the collective is something we all share versus the personal is our personal, and then the collective of what we all share is that oneness and non dual philosophy that we're, it's all one, everything's one, and that everything arises from that one. Instead of thinking our problems in life are from our life experience only, it's like that there's a deeper intelligence within us that's connected to everything. It contains objects, but it also is the self. Beyond that is just a pure awareness.
- [16:58]
B
Very much so. So if we extend that idea of our individual experience of our own life as Samsara, as kind of a illusory, dreamlike. Again, we're not saying it's not happening. Obviously it's happening, but it's happening in a particular way as a dream, as a, as an experience more than an absolute reality. At the collective level, then let's say all of humanity together, like you asked about the collective consciousness. Well, yeah, we can say if we look at the planet all as, you know, one species, all human beings as part of one species, then we can say, well, the collective consciousness is what built cities and planes and roads and communication.
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A
Would it be like the mob mentality too, where we're all like kind of agreeing on what things are and how things are?
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B
Very much so.
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A
What's good and bad, like the, the, you know, moral codes and language and.
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B
Mathematics we know, play a big role in that, that they allow Us, this collective language that we, you know, I can show a paper to somebody and they will understand what, what I mean. So that then collectively we're able to build buildings and projects that are way beyond my individual skills.
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A
Sort of like a beehive. There's all the different workers or the ants, you know, they have their colonies and they all are connected in some way to communicate with each other, how to do everything.
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B
So we can say that's the collective consciousness, the collective unconscious. Then from the Jungian perspective would be a deeper intelligence in us that contains the memory of everything human beings have done in history and have contributed to the collection of what is in the unconscious, in the collective unconscious. So rituals, spiritual experiences, technologies that they discovered and built like fire.
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A
Even kids, like we talk about, we go to, we go to a town in another country and the kids are playing the same games that kids in America are playing. And how do they. African kids, how did they. They never went there to learn it. Like, how did it get transferred that, that information that natural way? And what would be the difference between that and like instinct? Where we in like, genetically have an instinct.
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B
Yeah. Jung sometimes writes as if instinct is part of the collective unconscious, that we can say instinct is one of those phenomena that comes from the collective unconscious. So nature did the experiment for us. What it did is it created these continents, these island continents. They were separated by oceans, vast amounts of water. So that people build different cultures all over the world, but they didn't know about each other in ancient times, until the Enlightenment age. And then people started discovering each other in a sense, and conquering. But what, what that showed us, it shows us, if you look at the history, there is that many of the same mythologies, same myths, the same of.
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A
Why we have pyramids in all different cultures. That idea of a pyramid.
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B
Yeah. The same kind of institutions were building the same institute, although on the surface very different, at the ground level, they were very similar.
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A
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B
Yes. So, I mean, we. We could use a lot more examples, right. To kind of flesh it out. But the main idea is that these same tendencies to create ritual, to create mythology, to create religion play out all over the world in different cultures, in different times, even within cultures that don't have any communication between them. And therefore, Jung surmises that there's a collective unconscious from which we're all drawing from that these symbols are appearing in our minds and these tendencies and these instincts are playing out the way we call it culture and religion in very similar ways across the planet, even though amongst people that have no communication.
- [23:26]
A
So just like our personal life, if we don't make that unconscious conscious, we are driving, driven by that. And so the same thing goes with the collective unconscious that is also driving our results in our life and in our culture and our world, that if we don't make that conscious, we will keep repeating patterns or we'll still. We'll be helpless to the forces that move.
- [23:51]
B
Very much so, yeah, that's an amazing thought because we want to ask. Well, okay, in our personal unconscious, the content that's there, we can. We can pretty much understand it directly, Right. We can say, well, what. What I pushed into my unconscious mind, what I repressed were wishes that didn't fit my cultural norms or I had to push them in, I had to repress them. What about memories that I didn't don't like anymore or. Or aren't useful to me? Yeah, I repress them. And meaning they're still around, but they're unconscious. They're part of my unconscious. Can I remember them? Yeah, if I really try hard or something prompts me or I go under hypnosis, I can recall things that I've repressed for a long time and they come back to the surface. So we Want to ask, well, what. What's the content in the collective unconscious?
- [24:50]
A
What is it, Rob?
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B
What is it? So we can say, and this is Jungian theory, again, we try to stick as close to. As close as to. As possible to his ideas. He says what lives in the collective unconscious are archetypes. So archetype comes from Plato, the Greeks, and it's this idea of the original mold or the original pattern from which the mole was made. So, for example, there must have been an idea in the collective unconscious of a tree, and that idea then became all the different trees that we see in the world. That's an example, a template, almost.
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A
Right. It's like how we go in and we make a template so we can create something and a human being.
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B
Yes.
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A
A woman and a man. The templates. And then mother and then family. A family system could be, is an archetypal system.
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B
So these different archetypes of mother, of hero, of shadow, of wise old man, wise old woman, of death and rebirth, these are all universal. And that's one of the keys to understanding archetypes. They're universal.
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A
Like if you do comparative religion or study comparative religion, you see that every major religion had the same story of a birth of a. A child from a God and, and. And a kind of a forgot, forgetting that you were the vine and then returning and remembering that you were, and the sacrifice. And all, all different cultures and religions have a similar. Not exactly, but a similar expression. And that thread that if you understand that your religion isn't the one that invented it, that there's some deeper format that happened before.
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B
Yeah, I love the idea of comparative religion because what it's doing is looking scientifically or at least literally at what different religions that emerged on the planet are talking about. And sure enough, when you look at them, without that bias of this is this one's better than that one, or anything like that, just kind of comparing them, you see certain patterns that there's this, this idea of a deity or a consciousness, an intelligence, nothing else. That is universal. Right. And this idea of sacrifice and the idea of creation, all these ideas, myth, creation, marriage, of marriage of sanctity, of prayer, violation of law, of crime, kind of overstepping the boundaries, taboos, all of these are universal.
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A
So can we talk a little bit about how, how we can use the archetypes if we're not that? Let's say we examined our personal life, we've done our shadow work. How does the collective unconscious, how do we work with it to help our life? And I can Think of one thing, and I'd love to hear your input. But one of the things that I think is. Was so profound for me when I studied Jung's work is the concept of the ego, which is also an archetype. And that the ego contains is naturally negative, has a negative bias. It's always protective. It's rambling off of, you know, you're not enough and you gotta be better. And, And I used to think that if I had a thought that I wasn't enough, that it was tied to something, that something that happened to me that made me feel that way, was. And I always remind clients, as it's, it's. It's groundbreaking to realize that you don't have that. That's the ego. It's the way it is. It has nothing to do with you're damaged or wounded or not enough. Like you feel unworthy. That's the ego. And we are all looking for that cause. And the cause is this archetypal pattern that is in active in all of us. Even if what people don't show that you would. I remember my telling my father once, I was talking about one of the presidents years ago, and I said, oh, you know, he's so insecure. And my father was like, no, he looks so confident. I'm like, I don't know. Like, the way I see it, he doesn't seem very confident. So even people that appear confident, they all, we all have it. We can't escape having that ego and, and we, we can transcend it. But just having those thoughts, I'm not enough. I'm not worthy. We don't have to trace it back to. Because we'll find something. If we go back and we find an event, we will find something to confirm. Oh, that's where it started. But it started before we were born and when we were born with an ego or born with that archetypal. The collective unconscious as part of that ego forming.
- [29:42]
B
Yeah, I love that train of thought. Because what it leads to is this question is how do we experience the collective unconscious on a daily basis? Let's say one of the ways. And you can be certain or take it as a clue. Right. That you're experiencing the collective unconscious is when certain stories move you deeply, even if you can't explain why.
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A
Like movies, they have a lot of archetypal themes in it. But there's something that. I don't know why, but that really resonated with me.
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B
Yeah. Sometimes we know why. Right. Because there's a correspondence. But sometimes some things Just kind of hit us really powerful. And we know it's meaningful, but we don't know why.
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A
Well, like, going into, like, a temple or something, we have a. And even if it's not our religion, we traveled all over the world, and you go into this temple. We're not familiar with the rituals, but you go in there and the place has a presence. And it just archetypally establishes a sense for us that this is important. And that would be an example of that.
- [30:49]
B
Another one. Yes. That we've all had is when we dream of symbols that feel ancient and powerful. Jung called this numinous. When a numinous symbol appears, we know we've been touched by the gods in a sense that the unconscious. It's not our personal unconscious, it's much deeper. The collective unconscious is touching our dreams. Right. Giving us symbols that are way beyond our personal experiences.
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A
Could you describe numinous a little more? Just so.
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B
Yeah. So numinous.
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A
Interesting concept.
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B
Jung kind of used it as a way of denoting a sense of sacredness, a sense of spirituality, a sense of meaningful coincidence. It just hits intuitively, right, that, you know, this is important. Right. The mind is kind of framing it in a glowing light and saying, it's.
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A
Not like an emotional thing. It's more of a. It's a presence or an essence. Right. It's not our normal emotional.
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B
And the mind or the dream is presenting it as that. It's saying, this is transcendent. This is not your everyday life.
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A
And it sticks with you. Some of these dreams, they. You remember them for years and years and years that they just stick with you because they're so archetypal and powerful.
- [32:17]
B
Films, myths and. Or sometimes leaders that feel larger than life. That's part of the collective unconscious. We're not saying good or bad, but we know he will.
- [32:28]
A
It can lead to projection of archetypal power onto a leader that he doesn't or she doesn't possess. And it creates this like, almost like cult like, following. Right.
- [32:43]
B
Also, when we were kids, we knew, or we all know, or most of us anyway, feel that our parents were larger than life because we were experiencing the archetype, the mother archetype, the authority archetype. And we were projecting those onto our parents, our teachers.
- [33:02]
A
When we're at kids at school, like when we were in elementary more, I think at junior high, we started losing kind of that. The teacher started losing the authority. But as little kids, like the teacher and Ms. Smith said, you know, I get to. She gave me an A and she approved of me. And she's so wise and so kind, and, you know, all that projection and it gives us a way to really navigate our life in a. In a kind of a structured way. So we have the parents and we have a family and we have a culture so we don't have to think about, oh, we should create a town, and we should have townspeople and there should be certain jobs that people do. It just happens organically. It happens. When you. When any of you go to a workshop, I'm sure many of you have gone to it, you'll notice that there's always the same pattern in the workshop, that there's always the person that needs all the attention at everyone. And then there's always the person that's, you know, doesn't. There's the navigator, someone who's, like, making sure everyone's happy, someone who's, like, the leader that's collecting the group for breaks. And so you get all these personalities, but every time they kind of show up the same. It's like everyone kind of evolves into these archetypal roles in those. Those settings. And it's totally unconscious.
- [34:22]
B
We see it in art also. Hmm. When you see a piece of sculpture or a painting or a photograph, that just transcends time, right? In space and time and culture. And it withstands the test of time, too. Like, we see these works, right, like the Mona Lisa or Rodin's sculpture of the Thinker. They're eternal. We get the sense that those images just make sense at any time, in any place. Those are part of the collective unconscious. Or we can say that the artist drew inspiration from the collective unconscious and turned it into art.
- [35:03]
A
And so I think there's so many ways to work with the collective unconscious and working with the archetypes. And we teach our students this in our life coach training and our archetypal family field family systems training. But. But for you listening, I think just look at your life and look at these, like, patterns that show up. Notice the pattern in your family and how it shows up and recreates itself at the workplace or in an organization or if you're the leader of the company, how different people play different roles. And it's. And in society, in. In culture, they're the. The hero and the victim and. And the. The saviors and the defenders all show up. And how. How does that happen? It's just the same pattern and history, looking at patterns. But for your personal life, it's really. I think the main message I'd like to get today is don't stop at the personal.
- [35:59]
B
Absolutely.
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A
It's such a little tiny piece of who you are. And I see I've spent so many years just picking apart my childhood and figuring it out and shining up my Persona, my ego, and trying to make it better and. And it just leads to the same place. Like you're right back at the beginning again because you're not really doing anything. And ask yourself the deeper questions of where's the patterns here? On a more in a deeper level. And examine your dreams and look at those and get a young and coach to work on active imagination and start working with the deeper layers beyond the shadow.
- [36:34]
B
And then the collective unconscious as this inheritance that we all receive from our human nature, as well as kind of the psychological framework that it gives us, it has the potential of giving us a psychology that. That can transcend culture. Because if you think about what are the problems that we're having as human beings right now, it's that we. We have to get along with people from different cultures and different ways of seeing the world. This could give us kind of a meta language, a meta psychology on which to agree on things and communicate that. Yeah, there's. That. These different ways of seeing the world, these different paradigms and different religions, they're all part of a. Of a deeper intelligence. In other words, wouldn't you say it's like looking.
- [37:30]
A
We all believe really want the same things, but it's on a conscious level or on an external level, it feels like they're so different. But if you really get down to it, we are so much more alike than we are different. We all want to have a happy life. We want to be happy.
- [37:46]
B
Yeah. It could give us a universal model from which to acknowledge each other's points of view without having to agree identically with the way we're thinking.
- [37:57]
A
I love that. Well, another juicy episode. We are. You think about the collective unconscious in a different way. Ask those questions to yourself. What patterns are showing up that are maybe even a dream that shows up. That's a little numinous. Get a taste of that collective unconscious and know there's so much more to you than just your personal life that you're sitting on 2 million years of wisdom inside of you. All right, well, have a great week, everyone, and we'll see you next week on Jung on Purpose.
- [38:30]
B
See you soon.
- [38:33]
A
Thank you for joining us for Jung on Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week. We'll see you soon.
- [38:50]
B
Sam.