← Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
Jung On Purpose Podcast by CreativeMind
How Masculine and Feminine Archetypes Affect Your Love Life
00:29:13
Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Creative Mind Soul Sessions with Deborah Burndt Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado, founders of Creative Mind. Explore personal growth with us through Jungian psychology, Eastern spirituality, and social neuroscience in a deep but practical way. Let's begin.
- [00:21]
B
Hello. Welcome back to another episode of Soul Sessions, a Jungian coaching podcast. I'm Deborah Maldonado.
- [00:28]
C
I'm Dr. Rob.
- [00:29]
B
And we are continuing our series on relationships. And today we're talking about romantic relationships, masculine and feminine, as Jung would call it, the anima and anima. So if you're ever intrigued by the archetypes, masculine, feminine, archetypes, this is the episode for you. And before we begin, I do want to remind you to subscribe to our podcast. Just click on the button to subscribe. If you're listening to us, watching us on YouTube, the click the button in the corner here and you can get subscribed to our channel. We want to hear from you and see you every week with your questions. So let's talk about the love. Rob, we don't know anything about that.
- [01:10]
C
Well, last time we, we started with, with this idea of projection, how the ego really protect itself. And one of the main defense mechanisms that it uses is projection. Now this is going to play into romantic relationships big time.
- [01:28]
B
Oh, yes. And we actually just did a class this week and I said the projection that we feel that falling in love is really coming from the ego. And people were just like, really? What is. Tell me more about that. So I like to think of the ABC of a relationship. There's the attraction phase, there's the bonding phase, and then there's the commitment phase. So in the attraction phase, that's where the projection is, the binding is when the projection starts to fade and we're working through that disillusionment. And then the commitment is the work to, okay, I'm taking away my projection of your idealized version of yourself and I'm really accepting you for who you are and I'm ready to commit. So some people only get to that attraction phase and they keep moving from relationship to relationship. I lost the spark, gotta move on. Or they never get to that bonding stage because of their own. For me, that was afraid of really opening up to someone else. So all these stages are about personal growth. And relationships are the most powerful romantic relationships, powerful path to your own self development and self actualization.
- [02:43]
C
And one of the tragedies that I see is that in, in our culture, we emphasize this attraction infatuation stage and we think that that should be the rest of our lives. That we should always be infatuated and in love and in this powerful, attractive way. And that if we're not, that we failed at our relationship somehow. So that's a tragedy because that's unrealistic. No one can sustain that. And we're not meant to, as you know. I love that you talked about these three different stages. That attraction should go into a bonding stage where the. The couple is now more kind of serious and more engaged in making it work and putting in the work. Right. Of developing themselves so that they can. They can make the relationship work.
- [03:44]
B
If we stay in that attraction phase, we're not seeing that person for who they are and we're not even letting them see us for who we are. And it's just a false kind of sense of love. It's not real. It's. It's kind of a fluffy love, like a romantic comedy. So let's talk about attraction and why it's so powerful. Like, why do we have. And we talked about projection last time, but attraction is that form of projection. But we're going to go deeper into the anima and animus, which is very unique to Jung's work of what we're actually projecting onto that other person.
- [04:19]
C
Yeah. So young, kind of. And I'm taking some liberty here with, with his work. But, you know, this is the image that I get of Jung kind of conceptualizing somebody falling in love. So you're going about your business and then one day you see someone who just floors you. Right. They. You can't believe such a creature exists on this planet.
- [04:50]
B
Their hair is blowing back.
- [04:52]
C
You hear the music, you hear the angels singing, and they just represent everything you've been looking for. They seem to promise you heaven. They seem to kind of help you get out of your own self. Right. You're. You're now connected to someone in this incredible way that you're able to transcend your ego. Right. Or you feel like you're. You're outside your. Your limited ego self.
- [05:24]
B
It's almost like the ego is not. Is like overridden by this power, you know, like it, it. All the fears about intimacy or self confidence or self reflection and. And like, so insecurities go away because you're just like. Like almost like in a dream, right. And you're swept away. Yes.
- [05:48]
C
You're experiencing the archetype of the anima or the animus, depending on the projection. And it's a powerful experience of the power of the psyche. That's why it is so powerful. According to Jung, you're caught up in and almost possessed by this archetype. So that that experience feels transcendent. You're no longer yourself. You're no longer your limited ego, Persona, self. You're now experiencing the divine in you.
- [06:25]
B
So the masculine would be the animus. And so for women, it's typically unconscious. The opposite, you know, the masculine, feminine. The opposite of what you're presenting on a Persona level. So Rob would have an anima. I would have an animus that I'm not aware of, that we would project onto each other. So I. I am this idealized version of a woman, and he's the idealized version of a man. And almost like. Not even like a typical human, but almost like a superhuman. Like the goddess. You're the goddess or you're the king. And it's just this wonderful, like, unearthly experience that you have. And that infatuation. And it feels so good because you're really. I think, because you're lifting yourself out of your ego. But also, I think is that this part of us remains unconscious. And then it's becoming conscious through that other person, through that projection. It's like we're seeing our own divine self in that other person. Up the other half of ourselves that we don't acknowledge and love in that other person. And we're just like. You know, we feel complete. Right? You complete me. That. That idea. And it's a wonderful feeling. And we just. I think it's addictive, right? We. We get addicted.
- [07:42]
C
It is very similar to a drug experience. But Jung says this is not meant to last. Or it lasts a couple of years perhaps, but it's not.
- [07:55]
B
Sometimes not that long.
- [07:57]
C
Yeah, it's not meant for us to stay there and to define that as the totality of a relationship.
- [08:04]
B
Well, the reason is we don't want to project our power onto this other person and be infatuated with them. That we don't have any. Our own power. You know, we're thinking they're the source of our happiness, they're the source of our love. And I. You know, I can't live without them. It almost. And then they can't live up to that ideal. It just can't last.
- [08:26]
C
So the second phase in this projection then is the disillusionment. The projection begins to fade. Right? We start to see the human being beside, behind the projection. And we're disappointed, we feel almost betrayed that you told me you were somebody else.
- [08:45]
B
You were perfect.
- [08:46]
C
You fooled me into. You tricked me into falling in love with you. And now you're someone Else you. Not what you promised. I mean this is of course the cartoonish or explanation of it, but, you know, holds water. We've. We've experienced. We've all experienced something like this. Right.
- [09:08]
B
And so that. Go ahead.
- [09:10]
C
Yeah. Where the, the object of our adornment, of our adoration now becomes our disillusionment.
- [09:23]
B
And so what happens is that we talked about shadow in the last episode. It's. We're seeing our shadow. We're seeing all the things that we resent, reject about ourselves in that other person. It starts to show up. So we see all the light, but now we're seeing this kind of, you know, the things that we don't like. If again, we're irritated we're about our body in some way, we're going to notice that in our partner. Like, oh, look at them eating so loud. Or, or they, they're. They're not neat or they're, you know, they don't tell that me. They love me enough, you know, and. Or they're not. They're. I always. You start to see them less as a guide and then say, God, they're so critical of me. And that's all. A lot of it is projection. And then the bonding stage is the ability for you to reclaim the projection in yourself and. And then be able to share with that other person what you're projecting. And like I'm feeling this weird thing and we. You have those conversations but again, you're always coming from, I need to do my work first. And then I can approach the relationship and know how to handle it and communicate. And through that there's a deeper vulnerability that happens, a softening and we're. And the other person doesn't feel like they always have to be so perfect and they can't make a mistake and they can just be themselves and you can be yourself. It's such a beautiful type of relationship and not many relationships can be like that because most people don't do shadow work. But that's that stage that we get disillusioned from this like unrealistic expectation of the partner and then become more realistic. But the love is still there. So you never get rid of the attraction. You shouldn't. It's. You're just going to attraction plus bonding and there's. It's a deeper kind of attraction. Don't you think it. It goes beyond physical. I think initially it's more physical or more compatibility and then there's something deeper. It's like a soulful connection when you start to bond.
- [11:20]
C
Oh, That's a good question. I never thought about it that way, but I, I, I'm obviously almost thinking the opposite, that it's very psychological in the beginning because you're projecting your own idealized version of the archetype.
- [11:39]
B
Yeah.
- [11:39]
C
Onto this person. So you're not even seeing the person in their physical form. You're, you're experiencing kind of like an ego projection of. Well, no, this is much deeper. The archetypes come from the collective unconscious. So you're experiencing your collective unconscious.
- [11:58]
B
So this a psychological event.
- [12:00]
C
Yes, very much a psychological event. And it's when you start to see the physical person, that disillusionment sets in. But I could be wrong. Or it could be that some people experience it that way and some the other way.
- [12:16]
B
No, I feel like I, we're saying the same thing. So it's that, yeah. That unrealistic expectation because the ego is not conscious of its own anima or animus. So it's projecting, and it doesn't have access to the collective. So it's seeing this kind of a magical creature that's externalized. And then by going through the psychological bonding and going through the shadow work, you're starting to kind of realize see the person for who they are. But through that, you, it's like a process. Right. You're, you're seeing first all the things that annoy you, and you have to work through it. And then you start to see that deeper, soulful connection again. Like, it's almost like you see the, the animus, but it's, or anima, but it's covered over by the ego's projections. And then as you work through it, it's almost like you're teasing out all the ego stuff. And then what you're getting at the end is that anima, the pure anima, that's like un, untainted, undistorted. And then you're really, you're talking about.
- [13:17]
C
Somebody that's actively working on becoming more conscious.
- [13:22]
B
Yes. It doesn't happen automatically.
- [13:25]
C
Oh, I see.
- [13:25]
B
Yeah. But I think that you can start by, you know, if you're in that attraction phase or you feel like you've lost that loving feeling, as that old song says, you, you, you start to ask yourself, what am I projecting onto this person? What. You know, again, get curious about what's triggering you about the person versus the, that judgment of they're that way. And this is, I'm seeing it the way I see it versus asking yourself, am I really seeing it that way? And getting curious.
- [13:55]
C
Yes.
- [13:56]
B
And then Sharing with that person what you're experiencing and being vulnerable so you can both talk about it and experience it.
- [14:04]
C
Yes. So one of the. Another tragedy that I see is that people think of relationships as work. They always say it's a lot of work, it's hard work, you have to put in the work, that kind of stuff. And of course everything in life requires some, some kind of work. Right. But I think what they're missing is that if it's work for you, you're acting out of ego. You're still kind of in the, the kind of me versus them in a sense. Right. That you're always.
- [14:41]
B
It is a lot of work to be projecting and you're, you're like fighting yourself. You're. You're having fights with yourself through that person.
- [14:49]
C
That's right. So. So that if it feels like a lot of work to you, you're probably still operating from Persona ego and you're trying to make it work and you're doing your best and, and it might work, actually, you get it to work, but it's exhausting because you're having to work at it. Love shouldn't be work. Work is work. Right. Going on to the world and doing stuff. But relationship should be more nourishing. When, when the relationship is good, you feel empowered, you feel nourished and supported by the relationship.
- [15:29]
B
Not walking on eggshells, not calculating your mind when you need to have the talk again and repeat. Asking for things that you never get.
- [15:38]
A
Are you looking for a satisfying career as a life coach? If you are seeking a deeper path of training and growth, Creative Mind University offers an ICF accredited life coach training program that goes beyond surface positive thinking and into a powerful process of real transformation. You can start your new career as a certified life coach trained in a unique methodology based on Jungian theory, Eastern spirituality and social neuroscience. Get the tools to become your true self. Change your life and the lives of others. Visit creativemindlife.com click on apply and speak with one of our team members today to discuss your future and possibilities of becoming a certified Life coach. That's creativemindlife.com.
- [16:34]
B
You know, it's interesting when you say that so many people think of personal growth as work as well. And I always say if you, if this is work to you, then you're not doing it in a very productive way. If, if you're doing personal growth and you feel like, oh, I can't wait for this to be over, it's too much work to work on myself, then you're, you're probably just rearranging the furniture. You're, you're kind of fighting yourself again. That project, dealing with projections or getting to some place where you feel like you need to be idealized person that is perfect and that doesn't have flaws and that doesn't make mistakes. Personal growth is that you're just in a constant growing learning mode. And it should be fun, it should be in interesting, just like a relationship. So if you're approaching work, I mean, we did relationship coaching for many years and everyone, every once in a while we get people that say, I can't wait to get done with this work so I can find love and not have to do personal growth anymore. I'm like, what? You're doing it to get the thing and, and then you're going to end up working in that relationship if you don't do your own self reflection. And the shadow work is so critical for this to get to that really beautiful, intimate place.
- [17:48]
C
That's a good point. And it begins, that personal work begins by withdrawing the projection. And that simply means like instead of believing your, your irritation or your trigger, your emotional trigger, you're, you're questioning it, you're, you're asking, what role am I playing in this situation? You know, what is my part in this situation that is triggering me? Instead of simply buying into the projection and saying it's her fault, right? She's, she's annoying me or she's doing this and that. Well, you want to ask yourself, you know, what is my role and what can I do about it to, to make it a creative opportunity to grow the relationship? Because if, if you're, if it's all about blaming and getting back at your partner, that's, that relationship is not going to go very far.
- [18:48]
B
And so when we talk about anima, animus and masculine, feminine, Rob and I came up with a great way to describe it in a very easy way for people to understand. I know for me, I just couldn't when I first started learning Jungian psychology. Anima, animus, they sound so much alike. So which one is which all the time? So we think of the anima as love and the animus as power. So the anima is the feminine principle, the archetype. And archetype just simply means it's a universal pattern. So in all of nature, there's the yin and yang in Eastern philosophy, the Shatki, Shiva. There's a lot of, you know, dualities in lots of different cultures and experiences. So the love for feminine is not like feminine from a Gender perspective, but from this idea of emotion, creativity, passion, intuition, this, the, the creativity. When you think of love you think of like nourishing and, and beauty, nature and power. Do you want to talk about the masculine?
- [19:59]
C
Yeah. By power we mean more personal power. The, the confidence. Right. The, the sense of ability, of self efficacy, your sense that you can go out into the world and do things, that you can create for yourself and be responsible for yourself, that kind of power.
- [20:21]
B
And also the spiritual power that you are the source of the, the world. Like all of both of them actually. You can act in ego and be emotionally triggered and use emotions and infatuation from the ego and, and you could be the emotional one. But it's not really true love. It's, it's a lower, like an ego level love. And then the higher level of love is where it's just pure. And you're not like in that you're not coming from your personal experience or about you. It's just that pure expression. And the same thing with the power. It's not I get the power by controlling others or having power over others. It's more that I own my own power. The locus of control is within me. So when we think about power, it's the will, it's the movement, like you said, it's that personal power and we need both. So culturally are the sexes, we're you know, conditioned in a very different way. I mean society for millions of years, women have been the love. You know, they've been the, the creative ones, they're the ones who created farming and, and, and the relationships they have to bear. The children and the men were the ones, the active force. They were going out hunting and fighting the wars and, and then there's this kind of weird. In our society where men are the leaders. And why is that? It's because unconsciously we've been falling into these archetypes. But I think now women are getting more power and it's about how do we work with these archetypes in personal relationships? Because we see that power struggle too with relationships, but also in society where women and men can. We're not competing with each other. Right. What we see is the ego level, masculine, feminine and competition and you know, who. Toxic masculinity and all those kind of ideas.
- [22:12]
C
Yeah, because if we understand Jungian psychology correctly, what he's saying is the individual needs to balance these forces within him or herself. In other words, every individual has to do this balancing act within yourself, balancing your heart and your brain instead of, you know, kind of letting one lead. You have to become conscious of these two elements within yourself and harmonize them. When you do that, then the relationship becomes this beautiful attraction, bonding and commitment experience.
- [22:55]
B
So, for example, you had told me when we first met, we talked about relationships a lot because we were teaching it, but you were saying that there's. Women become the container for love for men, like the emotion. The woman is in charge of the emotions of the relationship.
- [23:12]
C
When.
- [23:12]
B
When they're not.
- [23:13]
C
Yeah, when the individual hasn't done this internal work of balancing the. The anima and animus in themselves, then they need the external to provide that for themselves so that the man meets the woman to bring the emotions. And it's almost like saying, I'll do, you know, the work and providing.
- [23:34]
B
I'll just show up and pay the.
- [23:35]
C
Bills and you do the emotions. Right. I. I won't feel. I won't share my emotions. You. That's your part. And that is very unfair to everyone in the relationship because that's not going to work. It only, It's. It's only going to work in theory or on the superficial level. Both partners have to share their emotions. Both partners have to be responsible for making, you know, the, the household work and all this stuff.
- [24:06]
B
Well, as a woman, like, you know, this idea that we in a relationship. When I was dating early, before you, and there was like, shot, I didn't do my shadow work yet, I would get a lot of men feeling and maybe projecting onto me like, I'm so independent and they didn't like that I had power or that had money and I was successful. And I almost felt that I didn't want to, like, I had to. Like my, my family life, you know, the being the mother and the submissive woman. You know, like, we have this. All this conditioning around having power as a woman. So integrating the animus. Like, I know for me, I'm very kind. I want to be kind and generous and. But sometimes we need a little animus energy to help us balance out both, you know, will and ask for things and also be kind. And it's not one or the other. And so with relationships, if a woman feels that she can't, she's diminishing the man by owning her power, or the man feels he's diminishing the woman by being emotional or something. You know, it has to be a balance. So the other person. I always find that in every relationship, unconscious relationship, you see, there's usually one person in the relationship that's the more emotional one and the one person that's the more logical one. And it's weird how you're brought together because you're projecting those parts of, you know, the things that you aren't accepting about yourself onto the other partner so that you can integrate them. It's like they're there but they're not. They're. They're just a container holding, holding the space and the reflection. But how do you integrate both? And that's really, I think what makes successful marriages and successful long term relationships is when both people are in touch with their own power versus expecting the other person to live up to the things that they lack.
- [25:53]
C
Absolutely. And in that regard then real a relationship then really serves as a platform for personal development which will, will go deeper into on our next episode. But relationships are really meant for us to grow in. They're not meant to be hard work, struggles or compromising. It's really one of the best experiences that we can have. But we need to come to these relationships with our own kind of personal integration already done. Or, or us at least willing to approach the relationship as that.
- [26:42]
B
Yeah, even us. We met 20 years ago and we were. I wasn't. I had just learned about shadow work from you, so there was a lot of work I had to do and we. But that's it. Like I think a lot of people think and I thought that you have to have all your work done before you meet the person. But I felt like I grew more in the relationship than I did when I was single. I felt like I had more to work with and more reflection. And of course I had a partner who was into psychology and open to change and, and spiritual and all the things we love that, that it was the best, fastest way to grow. And, and so just to review the. The attraction is always that first projection of the anima animus. The binding is that dis opportunity for binding happens during the disillusionment when the, the walls start to shatter of this beautiful person. Like the great powerful eyes now becomes this little man behind the curtain. You're like oh wait, that's just a little man behind the curtain. It's not really this thing that I projected onto that person. And then you start really working on your own in individual relationship with either your anima or animus. We do this in our coach training. We also have this in our private coaching membership that you can actually go and work with on a deeper level. So when you do enter relationship or whether you're in one, it's going to last. You're going to get to that commitment level and it's going to feel less of a commitment out of obligation but a commitment at a choice. And I think that's the biggest, I think a lot of people, most people get into marriages and it's just like an obligation versus a real conscious choice that you choose to be with that person every day and not complain about it and think it's so exhausting to be with this person. Yes. So love and power making sure they're balanced within you. And next week we are talking about spirituality. Yes. So we're going to go to another level with the a spiritual relationship and how to make it last.
- [28:44]
C
See you next time.
- [28:45]
B
All right, take care everyone. Bye bye.
- [28:48]
A
Thank you for joining us and don't forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions and join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with Creative Mind Soul Session. See you next time.
- [29:05]
B
Sa.