Debra Maldonado (2:22)

That we become overly agreeable and the pleaser, which I think, really, I see this a lot with women. Men, too, but predominantly women in all areas. I think it's just how we are raised culturally is to make sure everyone's happy and not make waves, not cause fights, not cause conflicts, so you smooth things over. Again, there's exceptions to every rule, but predominantly women have a hard time because they're so empathetic and so kind and so caring. About the clients. And again, not saying men are not, but it gets in their way of them being keeping boundaries, setting rules, challenging the client, or having difficult conversations because they don't want that conflict. So they'll end up, you know, it'll end up impacting not only, you know, the way they run their business, their team members, but also how they conduct their coaching session and how they run, like their coaching agreement with their clients.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (3:24)

That's right. And coaching is all about holding people accountable and helping them move through difficult situations. So you have to be able to call your clients out and say, what's going on here? Right. And have difficult conversations that often even might lead into confrontational situations. Not in, in a violent way or aggressive way. Right. But that's what they're paying you for.

Debra Maldonado (3:51)

Almost like assertive, a little bit assertive.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (3:53)

You have to be assertive and you have to go to. Into uncomfortable situations.

Debra Maldonado (3:58)

And so some of the, the things we've noticed with especially new coaches, they tend to use soothing, like, almost like therapy. And especially a lot of people who've been in therapy, they think that's what coaching is. It's like, oh, and everything's going to work out. And I was like that when I first started. I worked with a lot of single women that were very upset they weren't meeting someone. So it was always this soothing, believe everything's going to work out. And. And then I started, you know, doing my individuation work. And it was interesting when I started holding them accountable, when I started asking difficult questions, all of a sudden it felt really empowering because. And then I saw that they were actually doing better than actually when I was just telling them everything's going to work out and just believe everything's going to work out and have faith. And here, visualize, you know, your. Here's another meditation for you. And you end up being this, you know, kind of something your girlfriend would do versus a real coach that says, well, let's look at this pattern here. Why do you keep doing the same thing? And what do you think that is about you? And that can be confrontational. And that's really great coaching.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (5:09)

That is great coaching. And, you know, it's not about giving advice and having all the answers. Like, a lot of people think that, you know, we're listening to the client's problems and then we're giving them advice. That's not coaching. Coaching is about helping the client find their answers for themselves. And it's a collaboration. Right? We're collaborating. Two minds are better than One, we're team teaming up with our clients to help them find the answers for themselves.

Debra Maldonado (5:41)

So they could talk to their friends about and hear the advice and cheerleading from their friends.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (5:49)

Their grandmother.

Debra Maldonado (5:50)

Yeah. Or their mother or their grandmother. The coach is there to hold them to the fire where they're really going to have change in their life.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (5:58)

Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (5:58)

And so I want you like this idea of over identifying with the clients when, when the coach over identifies with the client. What does that mean? Because I find that very intriguing statement.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (6:09)

Yeah, I, I remember when I first started doing therapy, it was like I was so empathetic with the, with the client situation that I took it up myself. I kind of felt what they were feeling and I would take it home with me and kind of continue to identify with their situation and their circumstances.

Debra Maldonado (6:32)

Like, and make it a part. Like their problem becomes your problem.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (6:34)

Their problem becomes your problem.

Debra Maldonado (6:36)

Exactly.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (6:37)

That's over identifying with your clients.

Debra Maldonado (6:41)

And I remember that too. And this actually comes through this idea of what we teach in IRF to our coaches about non attachment is that when your ego is attached. Again, getting the ego out of the way, like we talked about last episode in the coaching experience, is that if your ego's in the way, you're going to celebrate when your client has success and then you're going to feel like a failure when they don't. And almost like you're right. I felt like I was riding the wave with them. If they came on the call and they were like, oh, thank you, this is so great. And I'm getting all these dates now and everything feels great. And I met this guy, I would feel good. I'm doing my work. And then it didn't work out and then I'd feel bad and I'm like, I can't go on this roller coaster anymore. And when I started to approach, when the client was having difficulty, instead of thinking, it's good that when things are good and bad, when things are bad, I started using those difficulties as an opportunity to coach them. Then it started getting interesting. Then it started me asking them, what's the opportunity here versus let me soothe you and make you feel better. So until the next session, it's like, there's something here. Like, this is where the work is. It's not when the client is celebrating, celebrating, celebrating. And another thing that we encourage people to do is not have a session with clients every week. When you have a session with a client every week, they tend to not have that resistance show up. They tend to kind of ride the high and then at the end of you do 12 weeks program with them. Every week you have a session. There's no space for them to have the resistance. And none of the work really gets done. It's just you're cheerleading them to the next step. It's when they have that space in between sessions and there's that gap of your support a little bit and they're kind of on their own out into the world, dealing in the wild with their mind. They, they start to have like resistance. And then that's really, they bring to the next session to work with. That's really powerful.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (8:39)

Awesome.

Debra Maldonado (8:39)

And so like overly identifying with their successes and beating yourself up when they're in failure. I find that that was the reason why many times I couldn't raise my rates when I felt guilty if they spent a lot of money and they didn't get a success. I felt like then I was afraid to even bring a client on because I thought, well, what if they can't get the results? And then, you know, what does that mean about me? And so the client can be, like you said, over. The coach can be over identified with the client and their goals. And the client is responsible for their results. The coach is not. The coach is responsible for delivering this coaching. The coach is responsible for showing up to be well trained to understand psychology, to understand where to take the client psychologically. But they're not responsible for the client actually doing the work, showing up, working with their mind, and doing the work outside of the coaching session. And we have to realize as coaches that we can't carry that burden or you're never going to take on clients.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (9:43)

That's right. It becomes too difficult.

Debra Maldonado (9:45)

Yeah, Stressful. Like you have enough problems in your life, you're taking on also the successes of your clients as well. Like, wow, I'm so great because my clients have this great. You're not that great. Your client is amazing. And giving that success to them, not owning it for yourself.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (10:06)

At this point, really understanding transference and countertransference is really important. So transference is what the client is going to project onto you and what do you do with that? Right. You have to be conscious enough to understand, okay, when, when the client is projecting onto me as a coach, what do I do with that? Well, one of the things that we can do is kind of put it on the table and say, at a certain point, right. When we feel like the client is ready to hear this, let's bring it up and talk about it so that it becomes now content for the benefit of the client. We never do it to put them down or to shame them or anything like that. It's so that they can benefit from understanding how are they showing up in other relationships? Because whatever they're transferring onto you, meaning they're projecting onto you, you can pretty much be sure they're doing it somewhere out there also in their public relationships.

Debra Maldonado (11:16)

So if the client is shut down or like, kind of picky with you about your coaching and critical. We don't get that many often, but there could be someone who just has a bad attitude. You know, they're having that attitude with other people and then they're asking you and they're telling you, why don't I have friends? Or why can't I find a relationship? Or why do I have trouble with my boss? You already know, like, this is what I'm picking up too, right.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:42)

Yes. Often it reflects their relationship with their, with their parents.

Debra Maldonado (11:47)

Yeah. And you become like their.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:49)

Yeah. Or their father.

Debra Maldonado (11:51)

Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:51)

Or both. Sometimes. And you know that what they're doing is they're projecting those expectations onto you as a coach.

Debra Maldonado (11:59)

You need to take care of me, you need to save me, you need to rescue me type of thing.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (12:04)

So it becomes really useful information, if you can recognize it, to help them understand that part of their own psychology and then help them move past it. Right. Integrated in. In other words, come to terms with it and then move past that.

Debra Maldonado (12:20)

Well, wouldn't counter transference be when the coach agrees with the client that they're there to rescue them? That. That's where that kind of like we talked about taking. If the, you know, the project. If the client's projecting, you're my hero, and then the client's like, I am your hero. I'm going to help you, I'm going to save you. That's it. Would that be counter transference? Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (12:40)

And the coach is saying that.

Debra Maldonado (12:42)

Yeah. The coach is saying, yeah, I am your hero. I have all the answers and I'm going to save you.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (12:47)

Yeah. That would be an example of kind of transference. That's right. And that the, the, the main thing is, would be that the, the coach in that situation is unaware of what they're doing.

Debra Maldonado (12:59)

Right.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (13:00)

They're. They're kind of falling into the, that trap.

Debra Maldonado (13:04)

Yeah. They're not like consciously saying, I am, but there's this kind of undercurrent of, I feel responsible, this person is, has all these expectations of me. And just think about, outside of the coaching industry, coaching relationship in all your relationships, how many times have we had someone in our life, a parent or sibling or a partner, project onto you what your role should be, right. And then you unconsciously fall into that role.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (13:31)

Yeah, yeah, it's something like that too. But countertransfers technically is like this. You, the, the client's personality is pulling something from you and you're reacting as if it's, if it's a normal situation, in other words, that, that you're buying into that feeling without considering that you're in a, in a coach client relationship. You're not in, in an equal relationship with this person and therefore to react without thinking of what are they pulling from me. And I can't, I can't use it right now or I can't buy into it automatically because my role as a coach is to take care of my client and to give them what they need in the session. If you buy into it and you react automatically without thinking about it, you're caught up in counter transference. In other words, you're just as guilty as they are of them projecting something onto you. Now you're projecting your own emotions onto them.

Deborah Burndt Maldonado (14:45)

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Debra Maldonado (15:41)

So for example, if your client again is, instead of praising you, they're criticizing. They're like, you know, I really need some more this in the sessions and you're not listening to me or that critical, you know, type of feedback, you know, or, or even just general feedback. It could be very neutral. But you're thinking in your filter that this is negative, it's bad. I've never felt that, have ever acted like that. And, and you take it really personally. That's the countertransference and then you react which is you got to fix it or you got to. It could be over pleasing. Right? That agreeableness like oh, I got to, you know, I used to do this. This is a really great example. I used to do a lot of meditations for my love clients and I'd have a bunch of meditations and I would record them myself and pick the music. And then I'd get people like this background music. I can't relax to it. It's too churchy. And I'm like, okay. I would change it and edit it. And one of my clients, a long time clients, goes, remember in the beginning when I used to work with you and used to do like 50 versions of your visualization to please everybody? And so that's the counter transference. You're like, you, you feel unconsciously responsible and it's like an old pattern that you're living out through the people. And that's the thing about individuation is the more individuated the coach is, they don't fall into these traps with their clients. And whether you're a coach or even running a business or running a team, these, this is very, very powerful because you end up, this is why people burn out, because they're so emotionally reactive to what other people's feedback is. And they try, they, you, they use their survival kit, reaction, very reactionary survival kit to respond.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (17:31)

The more conscious you are. Then you can use even your own counter transference to help the client. Because think of what your situation is. You're putting yourself in the shoes of the people that are interacting with your client out in the world. And so you're able to give your client feedback as to how he might be perceived by others out in his and or her social situation.

Debra Maldonado (18:03)

So you would say everyone. You're, you're very critical. And you know, you may. That's why your mother is saying you're critical. Like I've called out clients on that because they'll be like, my mother's saying I'm this, My mother's saying I'm that. My mother said. And I said, you know, you're, you just said X, Y and Z. Don't you see the connection here? It's, it's calling them out in it, but not being like you're like that too, but more like giving them an example versus a judgment.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (18:30)

That's right. It's, it's again, you're putting the client's needs ahead of your own and you're using any and all information that arises from the dyad of, or the relationship between you as a coach and the client. You're using that information for the benefit of the client.

Debra Maldonado (18:51)

Now, can I add one more thing that I think is so important, which it's like, probably the core of a lot of this is that when you are a coach, you need to have a coach. You can't do your personal growth through your clients. You have to have your own coach so you can work, continue to work on your evolution. Because if you don't have a coach, you basically, you stop your evolution based on wherever you, your last training was, maybe. And you're kind of only limited to the type of transformation you can give your clients.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (19:25)

Yeah, absolutely. If you have your own coach, it, it's a tremendous help because you're, you're processing your own feelings and emotions and your own psychology as you're going through the growth process of being, becoming and being a coach.

Debra Maldonado (19:42)

So it's really important and it also helps you be successful because if you don't believe in coaching enough to hire a coach, then how are you going to sell your coaching? Right. If you don't even have one? So it's very, very important. Rob and I have been doing this for a long time. We always have a coach because we know that it's important for us to keep evolving and also for the, for the benefit of our clients.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (20:09)

That's right. So in agreeableness, one of the big five, it's a balance between being empathetic with your client, meeting their needs, but also being able to call them out on things and being able to have those difficult conversations with them.

Debra Maldonado (20:29)

And when you first start individuating and integrating, the shadow that comes up that difficult conversations is maybe you're not agreeable or maybe you're being difficult and you're afraid of being perceived that way. That's what the shadow is. And so initially, when you have those difficult conversations, you may feel a little guilty. Afterwards, you may feel weird or like, almost like a, almost like a sore a little bit that this isn't normally me, but that's what the ego's trying to. Uses that emotion to say, see, be agreeable. It won't show up anymore if you just be agreeable. And by facing those emotions, and that's the process is not just changing behavior. You have to work with the emotion that shows up. When you do, that's really where the, the work comes in. Other people think, well, if I just change it, I'll feel more powerful. But sometimes, and many times you feel kind of weird. It feels awkward, it feels like you did something wrong because it's outside of your normal way of being. And I always say that's a sign of growth when we feel uncomfortable, when we feel this isn't. Doesn't feel like our old skin, it's going to feel uncomfortable and that, but it's so rewarding. If you do it enough times, you start to get used to being uncomfortable instead of comfortable.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (21:47)

So next week we'll be talking about our favorite neuroticism.

Debra Maldonado (21:52)

Oh, it's my number five. Yeah, neuroticism, which is that making sure everything is done right and the emotions like we're being emotionally sensitive. Yes. It's a good one. So we'll see you next week with the next episode. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe on your podcast, network, whatever you use, Spotify, itunes, and if you're listening to us and watching us on YouTube, we'd love to have you subscribe to our YouTube channel, Creative Mind and get every episode. We'll see you next week on Soul Sessions.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (22:24)

See you soon.

Debra Maldonado (22:25)

Bye Bye.

Deborah Burndt Maldonado (22:26)

Thank you for joining us. And don't forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions and join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with Creative Mind Soul Session. See you next time.