Dr. Rob Maldonado (3:14)

That's right. So along with the archetype and the complex, the, the imago really gives us an entry point into the personal as well as the collective aspect of the, the unconscious mind, which is an incredible feat. Anyone that understands or has ever studied psychodynamic models understands their power, that this is not cognitive behavioral psychology. In other words, we're not trusting in our cognition because we know our cognition is very biased. It simply goes on past experiences, past cond. Kind of the, the kind of personality that you've created. So it's not going to tell you the truth. It's like the, the chat GPT. Right. That's very agreeable with you. It's like a yes man. It's going to tell you what you want to hear.

Deborah Maldonado (4:02)

Like, you should keep boundaries with that person because they're a bad person and you're so good and they are actually hurting you. So you need to, you know, get out of that toxic relationship. And, and, and you know, maybe some of it is true, but if we're only looking at it from that level and that ego is always like in that protective mode and we're not and saying, well, what's my piece of the puzzle here? That's really the work. And so I know you talked about archetype complex, so I think we need to kind of describe that a little bit for people that aren't familiar with Jung's concepts.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (4:35)

Yeah, just one more kind of caveat about the unconscious mind. A lot of people are afraid of it because of its vastness and its illogical, irrational way of being, essentially because it's, it's the opposite of our rational mind, meaning it's the counterpoint. It's the irrational aspect of the psyche. It speaks in symbols, dreams, emotions, totally out of the realm of ego function, which is language, structure, mathematics, physics, that kind of stuff. So this unconscious mind is very powerful. And going there allows us then to get at what's underneath the hood of what drives us, what drives our relationships, what drives our work patterns, what drives our personality, what drives our dreams. It's all in the unconscious, unconscious mind. And the roots are in the unconscious mind. If you understand that, then you understand why it's so important to go there when you want to change. Now if you're happy with your life, more power to you, great, you know, stick to it. But if you want to make changes. If you want to grow, if you want to challenge yourself to do bigger things, you have to tap into the unconscious mind and, and access its wisdom and its knowledge. Right.

Deborah Maldonado (5:48)

And it's really hard to do it on your own. Like we always recommend coaching. I mean, we have a coach training for this reason because chat chief T that your chat AI coach to, to help you with this. Because the AI doesn't have an unconscious mind, it doesn't have a soul, and it doesn't have access to the inner wisdom. It's very language based and cognitive based, which is again, it's going to make you feel good about yourself and validate you versus really ask the tough questions. And that's what a real powerful, experienced coach can do, is really like, keep going. Wait a minute. You're. You're still projecting here. So when we talk about this kind of interaction, I like this idea. The imago is the person you're talking to before you're talking to them. And so what is the imago? How is it formed? Like, we have a bunch of imagos, right? We have an imago, that's our mother, our father, authority. God is an imago. We don't see God directly, but we have an inner image of what we believe God is. Even if it's not visual. It's a kind of a sense and emotional tie and connection to that higher purpose or higher self.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (6:54)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the word kind of says it, right? It's an image or a symbol. So that's what we're talking about, an image or a symbol. But what kind of image and symbol are we referring to when we say imago? So we think about two, two opposing aspects of the psyche. The personal aspect, which Jung called the, the personal unconscious, and the collective aspect, which is what he called the collective unconscious. So these, these are like the, the negative and positive and yang of the psyche. The personal is what we call a complex. In other words, that's the way we relate to others through our complexes. It's, it's not a purely path, psychopathology, pathology term the complex. Right.

Deborah Maldonado (7:42)

It's not like a wound.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (7:44)

It means our collection of emotions, experiences, ideas, habits that kind of cluster together around a certain theme. So for example, our relationship with our mother. We can say there's a mother complex in, in the mind, in the, in the personal mind. Because we had a powerful relationship with our mothers, biological, biographical mothers. Right. It was, it's, it was amazing. It was the first real experiences, human experience that we had as, as we were born and came into the world. So on the other end, Jung would say have. At the collective end, we have the archetype. And the archetype is exactly the counterpoint to the personal. It has nothing to do with our individual experience. It is a universal mother.

Deborah Maldonado (8:36)

It's like a. The, like, there's a personal theme, a personal story, and then a universal theme which is like every human being shares. It's like the foundation. And when we just work on our personal history, we're only working on a part of the piece. We have to go to the archetypal level to see what that is.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (8:53)

Very much so. So in between these two, you have the negotiator kind of situation. It's the. The imago. The.

Deborah Maldonado (9:02)

I think of it as like a container. It's like. It's little, like pocket of. Of a file that your. Your mind, like psyche stores, you know, fueled by the archetype and then filled in also by all your experiences. And it's kind of all mixed together like a yarn that's tightly wound, full of emotions and thoughts and judgments and reactions and behaviors, all in that one kind of set. And then it's almost like a program, like an app that clicks in when we're interacting with something that triggers that.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (9:35)

Yes. So that's the basic structure. Right. You have at the personal level, these complexes. Let's say, for example, the mother. At the other end, you have the mother archetype, which is kind of the. We can think of the idealized image of motherhood, including the shadow, dark aspects. Not dark in the sense of evil or anything like that, just dark in the sense of it. That they're very kind of unconscious in us. So you see. You see the virgin. This. The virgin symbol appear many parts of the world. What's the. The opposite of that? The witch, the evil godmother, the evil stepmother, mother. Yeah, those kind of things. So that's. That's the archetype. It contains the totality of the mother symbol. The mother image. Right. The. The personal one is very much tainted, or let's say formed, informed, shaped by our experience with our biographical mother. The imago, we can say, is a combination of these two polarities. On the one hand, our personal experience with our mother. Very personal. Right. It's a narrative that we have, and it gets built into our mind. The. On the other end of that is this archetypal image that shines brightly and is so powerful, it's universal. Now, to the extent that we're unconscious of this imago, things happen. To us. And we think it's coming from the outside that I tend to meet people by accident, and I just happen to meet people.

Deborah Maldonado (11:10)

Happy accident or sad accident?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:13)

Yes. For. In. In relationships, for example, we know we have a type, and we know we're attracted to certain qualities and people, certain, even certain physical aspects. All of those we can say are aspects of that imago now. So if we're unconscious of it, we feel like I'm making decisions at the conscious level and deciding who I like and who I don't like. And I'm meeting these people and deciding whether I'm going to be in love with them or not. Or enter think about, like, men dating.

Deborah Maldonado (11:45)

Women and their relationship with their mother. And we know, like, consciously that there's always that kind of connection, but it's the things that you don't know. And I think a lot of people look at their relationship with their parents and they analyze their beliefs and. And on a conscious level, and the narratives around it and the stories they remember and maybe the feelings, you know, on the conscious level. And they kind of try to connect the dots that way. But that's coming from a rational mind. The imago is in the unconscious, and it's very irrational. So if you had a distant father and you're like, I want to find someone who loves me and adores me, but you keep meeting that unavailable person because that's your imago, and then you fall in love with that available person because that's your imago. You know, that's what you're seeing. And then someone who is loving it doesn't fit your imago, so you just reject them. And so it's. So the good news is you're not stuck with it. But let's talk about when we're triggered by someone. So, you know, we all try to be good people, and we all try to, you know, every once in a while, someone is upset with us, right? Or a family member, or you get into a fight and you're upset with someone else. We know that we're not reacting to that person. We have to understand that. And if we do, we can have better relationships because we're projecting so much on that person that distorts them, and we. We can't really see who they are. And if you look at your siblings, they all have a different perspective of your mother. They all have a different perspective of your father. So they have their own little imago. Everyone has an imago. And. And then we're going into the world unconsciously, assuming things about people that. And we don't even know why. We don't know why. Like, I get a sense I shouldn't trust this person. Well, maybe it's not intuition. Maybe it's your imago that's not trusting the person. It's kicking in. That kind of protective mechanism.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (13:36)

I would say it's not. Maybe it's definitely. That's the way it is.

Deborah Maldonado (13:40)

Okay.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (13:40)

That's what we understand.

Deborah Maldonado (13:41)

But, you know, people are like, ooh, I feel like a sense, like, I should be. Keep that person out of my life because I'm intuitively, you know, feeling not safe around them. And instead of. And. But I think I always say, the more you know, you're unconscious and know yourself and your patterns, the easier you know, what is intuition and what is ego. And so you. Would you say the ego is very much a role in the imago because it's connected to that personal.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (14:07)

Yes, it has a big role. The ego has a big role in how we. How we interpret the imago because it's the one that has to negotiate how am I being in the world and how am I going to be in relationships? For example, given what my feelings towards the mother or the father archetype are about the. That's the ego kind of deciding and finding a middle midpoint somewhere. But so, you know, one of our students as well, why do we need an imago? Right. If the archetype is there and our complex is, you know, why not just that direct interaction with the. With the mother archetype or the father archetype? Well, because, remember, the archetype contains the totality of the concept of motherhood or fatherhood. That's too much for our minds to process. All right? We cannot process at that level and still function in a functional way, in a creative, loving way or responsive way. So the mind oozes that symbol of the imago, that image as a lens through which it filters the power of the archetype.

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Deborah Maldonado (16:32)

So basically our inner world is a template full of imagos. And then we see them out there in the, in the world, and then we need to go back in and we could change our perspective of the imago and then we change the world out there. So it's not about having better communication with people or, you know, going in and sharing your feelings and keeping boundaries. I mean, those things are all great, but that is not. You're really not getting at what's, what is really going like the, the real core of what's happening. Because it'll keep happening. Do you ever notice people that are always like, you know, I'm always having to keep boundaries of people and they keep taking advantage of me. It's like, well, what is that about? What is that imago, the mother? You know, I'm not nurturing myself, I'm not taking care of myself. Or you expect too much from others, you know, and they're always letting you down. Maybe that was your relationship with your mother. And then you just keep replaying it over and over.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (17:24)

That's a good point. So Freud came up with this idea of symptom substitution, and it shows us precisely how the unconscious mind works. He noticed that when he was able to, through hypnosis and through, you know, his, his psychoanalysis, he was able to get people to quit smoking, for example, or change their diet. He noticed then the symptom of repetition, of using substances to, you know, to kind of ease their neuroses, would show up in another form. So instead of smoking now, they were chewing gum habitually or, or eating overeating or over drinking or something like that. In other words, he didn't get to the root of the problem. He simply changed the external behavior, but didn't get to the unconscious component of that function. And therefore he saw we have to go deeper, we have to get into the unconscious mind and that, that's, this is where people are afraid, right? Because most models do not have a coherent structure of what the unconscious mind is. But Jung's model gives us that. So it gives us that idea of how do we understand a complex, how do we understand the imago? And then how do we understand the source of those things, which is the archetype?

Deborah Maldonado (18:40)

And so when we think about the imago and we get triggered instead of, you know, we want to be able to say this is information. When you're like, overly charged and you know, like, why am I taking. This is so intense. And it's just that person didn't call me or I'm waiting for a text from my sister and it's been three days and I'm really upset about it. And why is this bugging me so much? It's that I always call it the sticky emotion. And you're trying to get rid of it and it's just like digging in you and your mind is like spinning, trying to, like your ego's trying to figure your way out of the problem, but you keep going into it and it's like you're spinning and spinning. And that's because you're not seeing it clearly. And then this oppo. This is an opportunity to say, wait a minute, I can't figure this out on my rational mind. I'm not going to be able to connect the dots here with cognitive understanding because it is not logical. And so we need to do, like, what we do, active imagination. We do deeper coaching, working with emotions to really get into the unconscious and understand. And also dreams are a huge part of this as well. Your dreams will actually show you, you know, this is where your kind of misinterpreting the whole situation here and very symbolic. And I always say to people, and this is. Might be something that you guys, the listening can take is that when you have an altercation with someone or a struggle with someone, you could say, if this was a dream, how would I interpret it? Because everyone in the dream is you, right? So it's like, what does this symbolically mean for me? And then it immediately gets you out of that the other person is mean or hurting me. And you go to like, what can I learn from this? What's really the bigger picture? So that's like an easy step. Again, you have to do the unconscious work. But to just stop and look at it symbolically starts to shift the way you see the situation. And you don't know how to handle something until you do the inner work. And I always tell my clients, so, like, how should I communicate my needs to my partner? What should I say? I was like, you gotta figure out what your side is first. Get clear, and then you'll know exactly what to say. So a lot of dating coaches or relationship coaches will give you scripts. Here's what you tell your partner when you need to set a boundary. And it's like, you won't need a script if it's coming from your heart, but you have to figure out what Your heart, what your soul really wants, and get clear on your end so that you're able to communicate. And I think just that's better for the relationship. Or else you're just going to become defensive and projecting and it's not. And they're going to do the same to you. Your imago is going to talk to their imago and it's just two illusions chatting with each other. So, Rob, can I ask you a question about this? What happens when. When you are doing the work and you are doing the like, understanding your imago and the projection, but another person isn't, and there, you know, like you understand. Oh, I know. They're like seeing me in a different way than they. Than I know is true. You know, I know they're seeing. In their little ego bubble, they're projecting and it's some kind of projection they're putting on me. How does someone handle that? And because you can't really, if they're not doing the work, they can't really understand it on the level that you understand.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (21:49)

Yeah, from the kind of the observer perspective, you are aware or you're doing your inner work and understanding. Oh, my. Patterns in relationship are arising from this imago, this combination of archetypal energy as well as personal complexes around that theme of relationships. Your task then is to see that projection that the. The other person is projecting onto you precisely as that. That they're caught up in their own imago projection. They, they're thinking that you're the one that is making their life difficult, Challenging them, making fun of them, not taking them seriously, on and on. Right. We, we've all experienced those kind of projections on us. Our task is not to say you're wrong, because in a sense they're not wrong based on what they're perceiving. They're perceiving their own imago on. On you. Right. They're projecting it on. Onto you. So they're, they're writing their reaction in, in a way, but it's not the absolute reality. It's an apparent.

Deborah Maldonado (23:00)

So let's say you're married to someone. Let's say you were not Dr. Rob and you were just an ordinary Bob. You were Bobby, and you didn't do any personal growth and I'm married to you and I have like all this knowledge and I'm doing my Jungian individuation and I see that you're projecting on me and I have to be in a relationship with you. So how does that work for someone, I guess, understand like you are Less triggered. But then how, you know, I think there's this a big question people ask, like, what do I do with my husband or my partner that's not doing the work? How, how do we, how do we come to terms with that? Well, do you have to leave that person because they're not growing or.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (23:37)

Yeah, a couple of things that could happen. One is that the other person is really upset that you're changing because you're not playing by the rules anymore. You're not.

Deborah Maldonado (23:47)

The old agreement, right?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (23:48)

Yeah. That what, what attracted you to that person is now changed because what attracts us is that imago. It's not the real physical individual. And so as, let's say one of the partners is changing, the other partner is going to either leave, drop off, ask for divorce, breakup, whatever, or they're going to start to question their need to change. They're going to say, I'm seeing, you know, a lot of changes here. What I need to do that too. And it prompts them to change. And if they don't change, then it doesn't work out because people have to be like really connected at the imago level to connect in a real relationship.

Deborah Maldonado (24:30)

I always say that there's. We fit together like puzzle pieces. And then when we, if you meet someone and you keep having like the piece that you keep connecting with, almost like the, the, the, the brain, you know, the, the connections and the nerves, like the opening, I forget what they're called. You're the, you're the neuroscientist, synapses connecting with the open space. And so you, you change. I always tell my single clients, it's like if you change your piece of the puzzle, you're not going to repeat those patterns again because you won't be attracted or bringing those other people in because now they're gonna, you're gonna find someone to match, you know, your own self image that you have developed and you're working through all the complexes and stuff of yourself and your identity as more truly you than a conditioned pattern. But when people come together like that in marriage, it's almost like two people that aren't evolved come together and then if one grows, it's like their peace changes like you said, and then the peace breaks off or that person then starts melding and they have to learn how to reconnect again. So I think there's probably when you're married and you start doing this work or in a long term relationship, there could be a time of pulling away or maybe a pause to. While the Other person is kind of. And then you're finding a way to reconnect in a different, more powerful way. So those of you who are married and doing work, don't freak out. There is that opportunity where it gets better after that, you know, it gets better.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (25:55)

I mean, it can only get better. The more conscious you become, the better you are at relationships because you're not projecting. That's the key. Think about what causes friction in relationships. It's projection, misunderstanding. In other words, you're interpreting things from your side of the narrative and you're, you're insisting that they're not doing their part. Right.

Deborah Maldonado (26:19)

So it's like about expectation. Like the imago is like we have this expectation of someone or even like unfulfilled expectation, unmet needs that they keep projecting. So fix me, validate me, rescue me, admire me, praise me, never disappoint me. And we're putting that on that person through our.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (26:41)

Yeah, and so, so we said we were going to go beyond kind of what Hendricks has did with the imago. And here's the key to going beyond that. That then we start to see that the imago, let's say the mother imago, not only represents our relationship with our mothers internally in that, you know, we have to work through our complexes to get at the. At the pure source of it, which is the archetype. We start to see that the way I was conditioned and the way I experienced my mother imago becomes the way I see the world now, the whole world, the physical world, my relationships with the material world, with money, with success.

Deborah Maldonado (27:25)

With other people, trusting in others, trusting the world, feeling the world is friendly to you, versus a threat.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (27:33)

Yes. So it's a lot more than that personal narrative. In other words, it's.

Deborah Maldonado (27:39)

Or that one on one relationship.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (27:41)

Yes, it's definitely. It will alter your one to one relationships, but it's going to alter a lot more because you're approaching what Jung called the archetype. The power of the archetype, he says, is what transforms what gives us our. What we call our patterns in life. Not just in relationships, but in relationship to the whole world.

Deborah Maldonado (28:05)

So would you describe the archetype? And I always think of it as a force or energy that is limitless. It has different forms like mother, father, hero, leader.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (28:18)

You know, these archetypes, you know, mythology. These were the gods of ancient Greece, right. They had a war God, they had a love God, they had gods that kind of pertain to the patterns that we as human beings just repeat and do. So you See marriage in all cultures, you see motherhood in all cultures. Motherhood, war, peace. All these archetypal patterns, he says, arise from the collective unconscious. That's why we see them everywhere in the world. The question is, are you aware of the source or are you projecting it externally? Which means you're living as a child basically because you're, you're thinking, these forces are external to me. I have nothing to do with them. I'm simply reacting. And all you can do in that, in that circumstance is protect yourself and defend yourself. Like the ego then defends itself. But you see all these defense mechanisms.

Deborah Maldonado (29:16)

And then you have to kind of like figure out and navigate, like, and manipulate, even be manipulative in relationships. Because it's like, how do I approach this person? Because we think we're dealing with something external to protect myself. So I'm going to limit what I say or be careful because they're a threat and we're not really being ourselves. This is why the Persona was created to have this social mask. And then we just end up communicating with people from our mask because we are afraid to, or we don't even realize that we're creating this, these patterns. So it's like when we see people that we're mad at or a partner, we have to say, what am I assuming you are? That would be a great question. What am I assuming you are? I'm assuming you're being a jerk. I'm assuming you're being a mean person. And it's like, that's interesting. Who am I turning into around you? So if you're the mean person, then who do I become? And so now we're starting to see the two way dynamic. And really it feels like you and your mother. But then as we become adults, it's. It's me and another part of me kind of we're fighting ourself in a way. You know, we're trying to resolve something that we feel and we all have it. This is not about wounds or trauma or anything like that. We all have this unmet needs from our family. It's just part of the, part of psychology. And so to really think about like, what is this person turning me into? And like, is this genuine? And so we know that that imago is activated. And then the last question is, what would it be like to meet you as a person, not a pattern. And so a really great exercise would be taking all the assumptions away and projections away and just, just imagine this person underneath all the. How they're appearing. And I often Say, think of their higher self and think of seeing someone from their higher self versus their ego self. And that really helps a lot because we start to see that beneath their behaviors and their patterns and our projection of what we see is really a soul, just another soul, just another pure soul caught up just like we are. And if one person can do that in a relationship, that changes the dynamic.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (31:26)

Absolutely. Again. Because what happens when one person changes in. In relationship, in any kind of relationship, the other one is forced to change. Like, you can't, you know, you can't play because it's a different game now. The individual sitting in front of you changed. So you have to change or run away, fall away.

Deborah Maldonado (31:49)

Well, Jung said that when two personalities come together and there's a reaction, both change, both are. There's a transformation. So there is that. We, I think a lot of us are conditioned, most of us is to get along, get along, go along, don't cause friction. But it's in those moments of friction that actually give us our greatest gifts, our greatest. Like it. It really opens up what we need to look at. Because the friction is not really about that other person. It's the friction inside ourself. Like you always say, the outer conflict is reflecting an inner conflict conflict. And we have to resolve it within ourselves. We can't resolve it with the other person. So we have to resolve it ourselves first before we can know how to deal with this other person. Because then we know what we're really seeing and what we're projecting.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (32:32)

Yeah. And then there's something really amazing that happens as you start to clarify this imago image. Because what you're doing is separating. Uncoupling the personal aspects of your relationship with your biographical mother versus the power that's coming from the archetype. So the power definitely comes from the archetype. But we, because it's mixed in our imago and we're unconscious of it, we feel like we don't really have say so as to how our life plays out. What, what happens when we start to gain direct access to the pure archetype? Now we can restructure it, re. Pattern it kind of choose in a. In a real way. What are the. The interesting and creative aspects of this archetype?

Deborah Maldonado (33:21)

How could the mother me, if I had the pure mother archetype without my personal history? How can I use that love, creativity, nurturing, caring, warmth, compassion. How can I bring more of that into my life and into the world?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (33:36)

Yeah. And it gives you access to those rich resources in what Jung called the collective unconscious. That is real power. That is real transformation. That's where it comes from. It's a source of spirit, source of soul, of psyche.

Deborah Maldonado (33:54)

Yeah, this is incredible work. We have a new training that we're doing in January called this month called the Archetypal Family Field, where we kind of teach you the technique for this. This is for coach people already coaches or therapists that are, you know, want to add an extra tool in their toolkit to go deeper with this with clients. It's really powerful. So there'll be information in the show notes if you're interested. Seats are filling up for training and starts in January, so next week we'll continue this interesting series on archetypes and patterns, and we hope you enjoy today. And yeah, it's food for thought. Listen to this episode a couple times. Ask yourself those questions. What am I projecting on this person? What am I expecting of them? And what am I react? What. Who am I becoming around that person? And there's certain people that don't trigger us, and they kind of fit with us, and they're kind of nice, and you get along, and it's great. But the people that give us the most trouble are our greatest friends because they're the ones that. The struggles, the conflicts are really this opportunity to grow. I mean, we don't grow that much around people that are just. We get along with. We grow more with someone who challenges us because it forces us to look inward and really find the solution. So nothing's wrong when this happens. It feels like sometimes you're going crazy, your mind gets spinny. But just remember, I'm not seeing things as they really are. And really either get a coach or do our training so you could work through it and see relationships in a whole new way.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (35:28)

It's awesome.

Deborah Maldonado (35:29)

All right, take care.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (35:30)

Stay well.

Narrator (35:32)

Thank you for joining us for Jung On Purpose with Deborah Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado of Creative Mind Mind. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast before you leave and join us each week. We'll see you soon.