Sounds Like a Cult: "The Cult of Anti-Vaxxers"

Podcast: Sounds Like a Cult
Hosts: Amanda Montell (A), Chelsea Charles (B), Reese Oliver (C)
Air Date: September 23, 2025

Overview: Main Theme & Purpose

This episode investigates the anti-vaxxer community through the lens of "cultish" behavior, asking the core question that the show is known for: Does this group just sound like a cult, or is it really a cult? With mounting public health concerns amidst declining vaccination rates, Amanda and her guests—vaccine scientist Dr. Peter Hotez and culture critic Jane Borden—break down the history, psychology, language, and power dynamics that define the anti-vax movement. The episode balances empathetic cultural analysis with scientific clarity, debunking common myths, and exploring the social mechanisms that drive and sustain vaccine skepticism.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the “Cult” of Anti-Vaxxers

(04:15 – 12:40)

• Amanda stresses that cultish influence is a spectrum, not limited to fringe groups: “Even though they're full of zealotry that resembles classic cults from the 70s…more mainstream communities…engage in us versus them mentalities…and exploitation, but don't necessarily look like cults on the outside.” (04:20)
• The episode will use “anti-vaxxer” for clarity, acknowledging the term’s controversial baggage.

2. A Brief History of Vaccine Skepticism

(12:40 – 19:00)

• Early opposition to vaccination dates to the 1700s, paralleling today’s rhetoric about “unnatural” science and personal liberty.
  • “One UK protest featured a child’s coffin and an effigy of Jenner. They were not subtle.” (13:45)
• The late-90s Wakefield fraud linking MMR and autism is highlighted as a pivotal, cultish turn: “Wakefield’s claim lit a cultural match that started a major wildfire of sorts. And that fire continues to rage.” (16:40)
• Social media, political polarization, and the emotional allure of personal stories have fueled recent growth of the movement: “You end up with a belief system, with dogma, with a cult, or at least something that sounds like a cult.” (18:15)

3. Language, Identity, and Community Building

(19:00 – 21:00)

• Anti-vax spaces cultivate a sense of belonging and special identity—examples: “pure blood,” “medical freedom,” “the jab.”
  • “It cultivates belonging and that sort of like in the know versus sheep kind of vibe.” (19:30)
• The phrase “do your own research” is called out as a “thought-terminating cliché” closing minds rather than opening them.

4. Science & Facts with Dr. Peter Hotez

Guest Interview Begins: (22:23)

• Breaks down what vaccines are, how they work, and why they’re critically important.
• On new vaccine technology: “What’s nice about mRNA is you can make a piece of mRNA fairly rapidly…The problem with it is a learning curve to make billions of doses with a new technology…but…the risk that the pathogen is going to kill you or severely damage you is basically eliminated by the vaccine.” (24:36; 25:18)
• The overwhelming statistical case: “mRNA COVID vaccines saved 3.2 million American lives.” (27:32)
• On the persistent “vaccines cause death/heart issues” myth: “It turns out that vaccinating against Covid was one of the best ways to protect your heart health…It’s not based on fact.” (28:13)
• The logic behind vaccine side effect fears:
  • “There are rare side effects…inflammation of the heart around 1 in 20,000, but usually self resolves. It was Covid, the virus, that was the killer.” (28:45)

Empathy and Science Communication

• Dr. Hotez emphasizes the importance of respectful, complex truth-telling.
  • “Facts aren’t that splashy…and people who have the truth aren’t trying to whip you up…that compromises your critical thinking.” (29:27)
  • “I try to talk to people like I would my adult kids…most of the American people are like, ‘Hey Doc, just tell me what I got to know.'” (30:11)

Disinformation and Its Harms

• On the cycle of vaccine misinformation: “The anti-vaccine groups keep moving the goalpost, or you play this kind of parrot game of whack-a-mole. They keep on switching up what they allege.” (34:23)
• On vaccine-autism fear: The “false narrative” emerges from the coincidence of when autism symptoms first manifest and when vaccines are administered: “The full clinical expression of autism is often most apparent around [19-20 months]…But it’s set into motion by the autism genes.” (37:41)
• On media and influencer grifters: “A lot of the scam requires them to discredit mainstream scientists or portray us as public enemies…they rev people up.” (42:54)

On Combatting Misinformation

• Dr. Hotez’s call to arms for better resources: “There isn’t a one-stop shopping website that refutes all the disinformation…We’ve got to give docs the tools.” (50:10)
• On the emotional toll of being a public science communicator: “It’s not fun to see death threats against you on X or threatening emails or have in-person stalkings. But that is the world we’re in.” (41:17)

5. The Socio-Cultural Perspective with Jane Borden

Guest Interview Begins: (54:19)

• The anti-vax worldview closely mimics classic American cults:
  • “The part of the anti vaxx movement that most tracks with American cult-like thinking is the virtuous part…the idea that like some of us are healthier than others.” (54:49)
• Exceptionalism, magical thinking, and personal empowerment overlap:
  • “It’s magical thinking. And that’s like the mind-cure movement and manifestation…” (55:56)

Entry Points and Community Dynamics

• On “anti-vax schools” as a literal cult community:
  • “If you’re sending your kid, you’ve opted in…that’s pretty clearly being in a cult…it seems to me.” (56:50)
• The danger of identity and groupthink: “If you leave, we're looking at some of the exit costs of leaving a cult, I think…Is that going to make you want to stay?” (58:27)

Identity, Power, and American Individualism

• “It’s a coup. The Puritans came here…to bring back Jesus. They were the chosen…exceptionalism became…about who should wield power.” (62:33)
• Anti-vax as a vehicle for modern power-seeking politicians:
  • “Trump and RFK want power, and this movement is a way to get it. So, again, as I’ve laid out, I see the chosen people thing happening in this idea of wellness as virtue.” (63:00)

Wellness Culture and the Pipeline to Conspiracy

• On the “wellness girlies”: “The connector is purity…Purity meaning the healthier I am, the less likely I am to need a vaccine, and also the idea of vaccine as some kind of foreign agent.” (68:23)

Cult-Like Techniques

• Personal stories and anecdotal evidence (“mom anecdotes”) act as the anti-vax version of religious “testimonies”—powerful, memorable, emotionally convincing but not empirically based. (69:56)
• Anti-vaxxers co-opt protest language (“my body, my choice”, “save the children”) to confuse and recruit: “That is the problem…they’ve taken sayings and phrases…that were supposed to communicate the opposite thing as their own” (71:07)
• Group belonging, persecution narratives, and dehumanizing science are identified as core mechanisms.

6. Where Does Anti-Vaxxism Fall on the “Cult” Spectrum?

(75:04 – 77:38)

• Jane: “I think if you're in the actual cult, get the fuck out. But you can have a toe dipped in…a lot of people are following the anti-vax movement with some curiosity.” (75:19; 75:38)
• Amanda agrees, but notes that cult-like dynamics are highly effective at pulling in the curious and the vulnerable.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dr. Hotez on Disinformation:
  “Almost as many people are dying from anti vaccine activism as they are the diseases that we’re making vaccines for.” (41:17)
• Amanda on Identity:
  “Vaccine skepticism has also become a marker of identity…I admit I struggle to understand how this makes any measure of inherent sense…” (20:40)
• Jane Borden on Purity:
  “To even believe that purity is possible is part of the American tradition of perfectionism.” (68:23)
• Dr. Hotez on Communication:
  “Most of the American people are like, ‘Hey Doc, just tell me what I got to know, and if you can explain why, to help me understand, I’d really appreciate it.’” (30:11)
• Jane Borden on Community:
  “Empathy is under attack right now. And that’s what’s at the base of vaccines…protect the vulnerable among us.” (73:52)
• Amanda on Cultish Signals:
  “If you see one of those people…causes you to stop asking questions…and you feed off their emotional height, then that's a sign to get all your toes out of there.” (76:14)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Cult Framework: 04:06 – 04:15
• History of Anti-Vax Movement: 12:40 – 19:00
• Key Anti-Vax Language: 19:00 – 21:00
• Dr. Peter Hotez Interview: 22:23 – 52:09
• Science Demystified—Vaccines 101: 22:54 – 29:27
• Misinformation Tactics & Emotional Toll: 30:11 – 42:19
• Combating Disinfo—Solutions: 50:10 – 52:09
• Jane Borden Interview: 54:19 – 77:38
• American Exceptionalism & Individualism: 62:33 – 65:42
• Wellness & Influence Pipeline: 68:23 – 71:08
• Assessment—Which Cult Category?: 75:00 – 77:38

Tone & Language

Amanda maintains a sharp, witty, and sometimes irreverent tone (“That kooky little idea…led to the invention of the first vaccine. Vaccine, named after the word vaca, Latin for cow, little etymology. Fun fact for you.” (14:10)), but is careful to treat scientific facts and stories of loss with seriousness and empathy. Dr. Hotez is clear, generous, and fact-focused, never condescending. Jane Borden is insightful, lightly humorous, and connects historical patterns with contemporary trends.

Final Assessment

Both guests and hosts classify anti-vaxxer communities as, at minimum, “cultish.” For those deeply invested—especially organizing or enrolling in anti-vax institutions—they recommend:
“Get the fuck out.”
For more casual followers or those merely curious, the warning is to “watch your back,” as cult dynamics can be insidiously persuasive.

For further reading & support:

• Dr. Hotez's book (The Deadly Rise…)
• Jane Borden’s book (Cults Like Us)
• Follow @soundslikeacultpod for ongoing discussion

Stay culty—but not too culty!