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- [00:00]
Amanda Montell
This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I've been a Squarespace user for five years now. Updating soundslikeacult.com is a cinch. I just really love Squarespace's features, including its design intelligence, which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology. Squarespace Payments also makes it incredibly simple to sell anything and I also love that Squarespace makes it super easy to create a charitable fundraiser online. If any of this interests you, head to squarespace.com for a free trial trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain. If you are craving something warm and satisfying, might I recommend HelloFresh? I have used HelloFresh many a time and good God am I grateful that it exists because I can't cook, which is a problem because I really hate being hungry. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com SLAC10FM now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. One per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only, varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com slac10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Would you rather have to pay an Etsy witch $25 to put a hex on you or follow a problematic Instagram therapist and never be able to mute or unfollow them?
- [01:41]
Maya Spalter
Ooh, bad choices. It's culty. When you give your power away to anyone and to anything. It's not very specific, obviously, to just.
- [01:51]
Amanda Montell
No, I love that blanket that.
- [01:52]
Maya Spalter
But that's my check. That's my rubric. That's how I tell the difference. Am I empowering myself or some other entity?
- [02:01]
Amanda Montell
This is Sounds like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture. For this week's Halloweeny episode, we are discussing the cult of Etsy Witches to try and answer the big this group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or a Get the fuck out. After all, cult like influence is everywhere in 21st century America, but it falls along a spectrum. The sometimes the fringiest seeming groups are actually kind of harmless when you look under the hood, while certain groups that look totally mainstream on the outside are actually cultier than they might appear. That is what the show is all about, analyzing and even poking a little bit of fun at the ways in which humans find meaning and answers and community during this extremely bizarre time in history. So that we can tell the Live youe Life level cults from the watcher backs from the get the fuck outs now today we are discussing Etsy Witches. Etsy period witches period. In bdo. I am talking about practitioners of folk magic who transact with their metaphysically inclined customers via the online retailer best known for vending small batch handicrafts and vintage wares. What a time to be alive when for the low low price of $19.99 you can instantly incite an online mystic to cast you a love spell, manifest a fat stack into your checking account or hex your ex into seven years. Now while some listeners might immediately be familiar with the modern day cult following of the Etsy Witch, others might be thinking, huh, what did I just click myself into and how does this community have anything to do with me? And to that I say living in these ever tumultuous modern times. If you have ever wished for a way to just wave a magic wand, or as it were, pay someone better qualified to wave a magic wand and make all of your problems, all of the world's woes just go away. Then abracadabra, the Cult of Etsy Witches applies to you. As of late, this phrase Etsy Witches has exploded across news headlines and social media. For example, in Seattle this year, Mariners fans went absolutely viral claiming that a 1599 Etsy witch spell turned their team season right around manifesting them a streak of wins. Time magazine recently put out a piece called the Rise of the Etsy Witch, framing the trend as a part of a larger cultural shift where buying spell everything from love to court cases is becoming more and more mainstream. For the Washington Post, one reporter personally purchased a road opener spell supposed to be good for goals and such, and documented their experience, questioning whether the real magic is in the ritual, the placebo effect, or nothing more than the comforting feeling of outsourcing hope to a marketplace. These examples show how Etsy witches have moved from fringe spirituality to full on pop culture, all the while raising questions about belie belief money and meaning, One must ask what does it say about our society right now that witchcraft has gone so commercial? Please, please stick around because later I'm going to be joined for a beautiful conversation with today's special guest, Maya Spalter. A practicing witch author and one of the Internet's most thoughtful voices in modern witchcraft. Maya's work bridges the gap between tradition and the scroll happy digital age, and today we're going to attempt to unpack how we got from IRL covens to Etsy carts full of spell jars. But first, a bit of background, because I have personally been interested in mystical millennials who operate and sell their witchy magic for a spiritually seeking public online since 2018 when I was assigned to write a piece for Cosmopolitan titled the Influencer Witches of Instagram. For that piece I got to talk to some absolutely incredible witchy women, including Bree Luna, who goes by the Hood Witch and is regarded by many to be the OG Instagram witch icon, and Valeria Ruelas, AKA the Mexican Witch who is based in New Orle. Alternative spirituality tends to thrive during times of broader existential questioning, and these witches told me that they saw their online audiences grow, especially in the wake of Trump's first presidency, when so many women, even those who'd never dabbled in witchcraft before, found themselves seeking community and answers through metaphysical coping outside the US's traditionally oppressive and oppressively traditional religious and governmental systems. At the time that I wrote that article, Pew Research reported that millennials were turning away from religion faster than any group yet strongly identified as spiritual. More modern data that we've referenced in a few recent episodes, including our episodes on the cults of incels and Christian pop music shows that due to the rise of the manosphere and increasing conservatism in the US and beyond, young men specifically are actually re embracing traditional patriarchal Christianity for the first time in a very long time. Again, happy Halloween. But I think a lot of women, queer folks, marginalized genders are still interested in fringier, more female centered spiritual alternatives. When I interviewed Valeria for that piece, she told me, in the Age of Donald Trump, I notice an uptick in DMs after stressful current events and that witches might be just the type of emotionally accessible influencer that young women are craving. Now, I want to be very clear, associating the words cult and witchcraft can convey the wrong idea. While modern witches fortunately might not have to fear being burned at the stake the way that they once did, they still experience their fair share of criticism and ostracization first of all, influencer is a 21st century profession that a lot of people still judge and don't take seriously, while witchcraft is an ancient practice that attracts a similar vibe of mistrust. Put them together and you find an industry that a lot of people find invalid and culty in a judgmental way. Valeria told me, quote, I have been called satanic and devil worshipper and just get mocked a lot for my practice. What also doesn't help in the sort of witchcraft reputational department is the fact that whenever a trend starts trending, big business takes notice. And it probably comes as no surprise that corpor and faux witches who don't come by it necessarily honestly or in good faith have started to capitalize on this mystical moment too. Another witch I interviewed for Cosmo told me there are definitely fake witches online, people mashing together spiritual jargon in order to get a sale. So a couple controversies here. Several summers ago, Sephora debuted a product called Their Starter Witch kits, which for $42 came with tarot cards, sage and rose quartz. The brand hastily canceled the product after being accused of trying to appropriate indigenous religious practices. But other big brands clearly didn't learn from that hullabaloo, because a few months later Starbucks came under fire for poaching some marketing imagery suspiciously similar to Bri Luna, AKA the Hood Witch, her long talon esque nails wrapped around a vibrant purple crystal to advertise their crystal ball, Frappuccino. So that brings us to the latest iteration of online magic to attract both followers and scrutiny. The Etsy witch. Which of course is not just one witch, but a community marketplace ecosystem of witches. And all of this didn't appear overnight. Self identified witches have been selling spell jars, tarot readings and astrology bundles in online communities since the Tumblr days and even before. But by the mid 2010s, when Instagram aesthetics met Etsy's Infinite Marketplace, witchcraft became a branded commodity and suddenly anyone could hex their ex with the click of a button without having to interact with a single other human being at all. What might make the Etsy witch phenomenon potentially cult like, for better and for worse, isn't just the spells, but some of the potential power dynamics here, the charismatic sellers, some of whom present themselves as these mystical authorities, the gatekeep rituals and promises of transformation, the testimonials from zealous believers and the sense of belonging that buyers long to feel when they participate. I suppose the Etsy witch phenomenon probably just wouldn't be thriving the way that it is without the vulnerability its clientele which poses questions about the best ways in which to participate in this phenomenon. Now I'll speak for myself. I am personally very charmed, literally, by making magic more accessible. But some of my research has led me to believe that the online witch movement is not all rose quartz and citrine. You know what I mean? For example, during the 2020 election, self identified witches went viral on TikTok under the banner of Witch the vote casting collective spells and rituals with the intention of defeating Donald Trump. Obviously, for me, on its face, I love this. Wired reported at the time that these witchy election interventions became a kind of online rallying point, while the University of Calgary noted how they seem to blend activism with magical thinking. And while again, on one hand I love this idea of feminine grassroots ritual and collectivism, the blend of metaphysics, manifestation and IRL politics does deserve skepticism. And as I was reading about this, I couldn't help but wonder if certain seekers, not all of them by any means whatsoever, but if certain seekers might have actually foregone participating in other, more grounded types of political engagement because they were just caught up in the online trend of it all. Here's another more recent and concrete controversy. Just before the killing of Charlie Kirk this past September, the online publication Jezebel ran a since deleted piece titled We Paid some Etsy Witches to Curse Charlie Kirk, in which a writer described commissioning spells against him after Kirk was shot and killed. The piece was actually amended with an editor's note clarifying that the site does not endorse violence, and of course neither do we. That sounds like a cult, but I just find it real interesting how messy things can get when, say, media professionals hoping for clicks start playing kind of willy nilly with metaphysical ideas which are actually quite sacred to many people. In the context of politics and the attention economy and commercialism, anybody's culty spidey senses starting to tingle. Now here's one thing about Etsy's terms and conditions. Technically, the site actually bans the sale of metaphysical services, and that's why so many witches label their hexes and blessings as entertainment only. Despite that disclaimer, Etsy witches have received some pushback within the witch community itself, with some traditional practitioners accusing Etsy witches of sort of cheapening a spiritual lineage by commodifying it. There are lots of varying opinions about this stuff, and we'll get into some more of them in our interview. But of course, the kind of cult y cult esque part is that like any belief system, this isn't just about what's being sold, but who has the authority to sell it, and whose rituals and wisdom are considered authentic. So I think it's high time to see what a real practicing witch has to say about all this. After the break, please stick around to hear from Maya Spalter, a writer, poet and editor who writes nonfiction about magic and poetry about science. Don't disappear. There's still much to learn about the Cult of Etsy Witches. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace, the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs, artists, podcasters, professionals of any kind to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to connect with your audience, to make a beautiful website, soup to nuts and sell absolutely anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I've been a Squarespace user for oh gosh, five years now. Updating sounds like a cult.com is a startup cinch. I just really love Squarespace's features, including its Design Intelligence which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you build the website of your dreams. Squarespace Payments also makes it incredibly simple to sell anything, whether you're doing so in a subscription model or a one time purchase. @ a recent live show, I even used Squarespace to help me sell merch IRL at the event, which was super useful. And I also love that Squarespace makes it super easy to create a charitable, fun fundraiser online. If any of this interests you, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com cult to save 10% on your first purchase of a website or domain. Fall is in full swing. My sweet baby Culties. And you know what? That is gorgeous news for your mouths and tummies. If you are craving something warm and satisfying, hearty and wholesome, might I recommend HelloFresh bringing you comforting chef design meals full of fresh seasonal ingredients right to your front door. This season they have taken things to the next level with their biggest menu refresh yet, meaning you can now choose from 100 different options every week, including new seasonal dishes from around the world. If you're trying to up your veggie intake, they've got vegetable packed recipes, but you can also get steak and seafood delivered to your door at no extra cost. I have used HelloFresh many a time throughout my podcasting life and good God am I grateful that it exists because cook babe, I just can't. Which is a problem because I really hate being hungry. HelloFresh solves this problem. The best way to cook just got better. Go to hellofresh.com SL10FM now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. One per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's hellofresh.com slac10fm to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life. Maya, thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult.
- [16:01]
Maya Spalter
Hey, thank you. I'm so glad to be with you.
- [16:03]
Amanda Montell
A joy, an honor, a dose of magic for our Monday morning. I was wondering if you could start out by introducing yourself and your personal journey with regard to witchcraft. I would just love to hear the lore.
- [16:16]
Maya Spalter
Okay, the lore. So in the year 1999, in the 1900s, I moved to New York City. I came here to go to college, and I'd always been like a witchy teen. And I needed a job partway through my freshman year. So I went out into the East Village and I poked my head into every place that seemed cool. And I was hired at Enchantments, one of New York City's oldest, if not the oldest, witchcraft apothecary that's still standing. So I went on to work there throughout my college years. I was there for about five illustrious years practicing their particular brand of eclectic, modern, urban, inflected magic. So I helped people do spells. I gave people that they would need to maintain their altars of all sorts of different denominations. And I learned very little bit about a lot of different esoteric practices.
- [17:13]
Amanda Montell
So when you say you were a witchy teen, could you, like, give us a taste of what that looked like?
- [17:18]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, I mean, it looked like PJ Harvey. It looked like Bjork looked like a goth, but also, confusingly, like a hippie. Yeah, I mean, a lot of it was aesthetics, sure. But also, I am a poet, and I have always approached the world just through a lens that can identify metaphor and see things the way they sort of rhyme in life. And that really lends itself to a sympathetic sort of magic where you make a small version of what you want to see in the hopes of projecting that into, like, a larger form change in the world.
- [17:55]
Amanda Montell
I've never thought about the correlation between linguistic patterns and metaphysical patterns in the world because, like, rhyme is magic, like, spontaneous rhyme is magic. Metaphor is magic because it opens up your mind in ways that don't make logical sense. And I'm like a pretty grounded. Like, I have the daughter of scientists, so I don't know. I'm not like the most metaphysical person alive. But I am so here for witchcraft and ghosts and spells. It just makes sense to me in maybe the way that poetry makes sense to me. So I'm going to be thinking about that for the rest of my life. Anywho, it sounds like your introduction to witchcraft, personally and professionally, was pretty embodied. I mean, I don't want to jump to conclusions. It sounds like you were probably listening to Bjork from afar, but you're interfacing with real humans as you conducted your witchcraft. That seems like it all kind of took place in the real world. But the Internet has increasingly played a role in witchcraft. Could you talk first a little bit about the role of the Internet in your witchcraft experience?
- [19:05]
Maya Spalter
Yeah. So after publishing my book Enchantments, which happened in 2018, up until that point, I'd been a regular private participant with my friends on Instagram and different social media sites or whatever. But I became a public person on social media when I published my book in 2018. And as a result of some really wonderful publicity to do with my publisher and to do with my own connections that I've made with other witchcraft people, I found myself gaining a lot of followers. So on Instagram, I shared news about my book, about touring with my book events and things, and I shared myself. But I never worked as a medium of any kind, didn't have or solicit clients for any services. I just tried to connect with people as an author and show people the beautiful altars and rituals that I made.
- [19:58]
Amanda Montell
That makes a lot of sense. You know, obviously there are certain professions and practices that really naturally jibe with social media use. And then there are those that, for whatever reason, give some pause. And those communities that sort of clash in a way that might feel a little sus with social media are many of the communities that we've covered on this show, like Instagram therapists, for example, or Tradwives and things like that, where it's like, there's something about the way in which these people are recruiting followers, as it seems online, that feels a little bit cultier than an author sharing their book tour dates online. And that book just so happens to be about witchcraft. I guess my job now is to, like, sniff out cultishness where I might not have cared to pay attention to it before, but some things don't require much sniffing because, like, everyone is kind of like, huh, there's something culty here. And I feel like the Etsy witch is one of those things. You know, there's just been like a flurry of headlines and rubbernecking at this phenomenon in recent times. I was wondering what you think might be specially cultish cult esque about the rise of this phenomenon and then also this label like Etsy witch.
- [21:23]
Maya Spalter
Well, if it didn't happen to correspond to such high profile current events, then I don't think that I would have considered its culty nature at all. It's just that like if people can really pin their hopes on that working in some dramatic way, then I think the investment of faith that people put into these products will be even more potent. And I think faith is really potent. But regardless of the platform, an Etsy, which sort of reminds me of some something that my friend was telling me about yesterday, just talking about the origin of the hedge witch, the notion of just being kind of a common everyday grocery store sorceress where you can just sort of like reach into the bounty of nature that's the handiest to you and pull back out whatever it is that's called for or necessary.
- [22:14]
Amanda Montell
Wait, what's a hedge witch?
- [22:16]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, it's just like a particular type of like green witch, I guess it's just like a style of being a particular type and it's sort of like a quotidian witch. And so I mean an Etsy witch, hedge witch, the same diff, more or less. It's just like how do you find a witch? And it's a craft, just like all the other crafts that you find on Etsy. I mean like the craft part I think can be underplayed sometimes. But what we did a lot at Enchantments when I was learning, you find an object to stuff with symbolism and that's your craft. And we often did that with a candle, but you can do that in any form. So Etsy seems like a perfect place to sell your spells. But working to order has its own complications.
- [22:56]
Amanda Montell
Y yeah, I guess at its core it's maybe not that different from the ways that witches have always advertised their practices, but in combination with clickbait, like obviously headlines are always looking to sensationalize a story and I'm no exception, you know, like this episode will be titled the Cult of Etsy Witches, you know, and that's for a reason. But yeah, in combination with like the attention economy and clickbait and digital media mediated capitalism, I think every pract just gets a little cultier. And when that practice is already sort of like historically oppressed or scrutinized, maybe unfairly in the way that folk magic always has been, you get this very specific flavor of cultiness. That's different from the cultiness of like Apple or Trader Joe's, you know, which are like more mainstream.
- [23:49]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, but when you get such a heavily edited version of anybody in their Persona, it leads to a great distortion. And when you mentioned enchantments and working there in a real life, face to face environment, I feel like that was really important to the process. I feel like we were continually trying to puncture the notion that we were so special just because we had access to the tools. We were like, you're going to actually do the magic. I'm going to prepare an item for you to stuff all of your meaning into. You're going to stuff the meaning into it. I'm going to prepare the food and you're going to cook it. You know, I'm going to give you the recipe and you're going to cook it.
- [24:25]
Amanda Montell
Ah, that's very interesting. So maybe like the Internet kind of changes the power dynamic and can make the witch seem like they are this all knowing figure and they're really doing the magic. Whereas like the face to face interaction makes it clear that the client or the seeker is really the one doing it for themselves.
- [24:45]
Maya Spalter
Well, yeah, I mean, it's optional for the witch to remind us all of this fact and to remind themselves of that fact, but I think that's the way to go. I don't want to fill that space for anyone else. I think the whole point of the witchcraft, the way I do it is to empower yourself. I'd hate to pay somebody else to feel powerful on my behalf. That doesn't make that much sense to me.
- [25:08]
Amanda Montell
Ooh, I love that framing. So on this topic, I'm wondering, in your view, what else might make a witch who primarily operates online distinct from say, like the experiences that you had. I'm just curious about the role of Internet platforms like Instagram and Etsy in making that dynamic more distributed.
- [25:32]
Maya Spalter
I think like all things, what it's missing is physical community, the inconvenience of it. I think we feel like we've eliminated hassle from different parts of our lives when, like, hassle was our lives. Like that's what was holding us together. If you don't have to do your little errands and see people on the way, we don't feel as good.
- [25:53]
Amanda Montell
That's it.
- [25:53]
Maya Spalter
And it works the same way for all of our spiritual practices as well. We kind of need the friction of real life.
- [26:00]
Amanda Montell
That is so true. And I think of so many spiritual communities, from more mainstream ones to fringier ones for example, I know that in Orthodox Judaism, if you want to convert, there's this tradition of having to ask the rabbi three different times. It's not just like, oh, I'm going to pay $25.
- [26:16]
Maya Spalter
Yeah.
- [26:16]
Amanda Montell
And like, hooray, Judaism. There's so much hassle to your point. And you're absolutely right. Navigating that IRL hassle and those IRL conflicts. It reminds me of how. Have you ever heard of single kitten syndrome? When you adopt just one kitten and the kitten has no one to teach them how to fight and play, and so they end up like a chaotic little Tasmanian devil, You know, like people who don't have the opportunity to navigate IRL hassle, particularly when it comes to spirituality or any of the community spaces that give life meaning. They might have a kind of existential single kitten syndrome and start getting like, really violent online or like, I don't know, just like turn into Tasmanian devils of sorts.
- [27:01]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, yeah. And your spiritual life and needs, like, they're not a store. You can get products that you might use in your ritual. You can try to manifest the things that you want in your life, but you're not shopping for them. It's just something different.
- [27:21]
Amanda Montell
The detective said missing kids usually come home. What happens when they don't?
- [27:27]
Commercial Voice
Based on a true story. Police looking for John Gacy. We discovered bodies. By the looks of it, they're younger men. Man, the things he did to those kids. He's sick.
- [27:39]
Maya Spalter
The system failed these families.
- [27:41]
Commercial Voice
Devil in disguise. John Wayne Gacy Streaming now only on Peacock.
- [27:47]
Amanda Montell
Do you know how many there are?
- [27:48]
Commercial Voice
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- [28:22]
Amanda Montell
So I want to talk a little bit more about the Etsy transactionality of it all. While Etsy is obviously overflowing with spell jars and services like, I don't know, $20 hexes or love spells, what do you personally make of this type of commodification and what do you think it says about where we are in society right now?
- [28:44]
Maya Spalter
That was kind of my bread and butter for a long time. I mean, just working at the witchcraft store where I learned how to put together such jars. I guess if you just want to like, kind of put it broadly, but just like how to craft the material items that compose a spell. I learned in a setting how to do these things. And I was really comfortable with it. Well, in terms of, like, you mentioned $20, I'm down with $20 spells and not super down with $2,000 spells. Just because I can't afford them, I suppose, but also because it doesn't seem like more money doesn't mean something's more powerful. And that was something that I was just brought up in this tradition with. So it always made a lot of sense to me. And the notion that you might buy and sell these services just feels fully historical. It doesn't feel like we're in a new moment of buying and selling these services at all. Although I do feel like since, like, the emergence of Trump, people feeling the need to find their strength and power in ways that are outside of the channels, that feel increasingly inaccessible. So I do feel like that's how we find ourselves in this current moment and iteration of consumable forms of witchcraft and magic. It's also how we interact with most things in the world in this culture is buying, selling, and consuming them in a pop, cyclical way. I also think it's fascinating how people invent new ways to address timeless spiritual needs. It's beautiful. And I feel like we have sort of a cargo cult experience culturally. Like, things that wash up from any time, any place, any culture, and we instantaneously integrate them and gobble them up and put them into our own contemporary way of looking at the world. So I wouldn't stand in opposition to that. That's what our culture is. So if you have, like, a kind of hot topic, multicultural approach to spirituality and fashion and music and books and food and everything, then that makes a lot of sense to me.
- [30:46]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, totally. It reminds me of how the theologian Tara Isabella Burton has classified contemporary spiritual practitioners who, like, hodgepodge a bunch of different practices and cultural touchstones as the remixed. She calls them, like, the religiously rare remixed. It's not that they're not religious anymore just because they're not going to like Methodist church. It's just they're mixing and matching. And I appreciate you for, like, inviting me to strip away some of my cynicism because I was like, you know, all these articles have kind of framed Etsy Witch as having, like, these negative connotations. They're, like, slapping this label on it, like, Etsy Witch. It's like, slur coded or something, you know? But I'm just like, well, but Etsy is, like, a wonderful marketplace. Like, I love Etsy and have been, like, a really, really big fan and patron of Etsy for a long Time. It's not like the Amazon.com witch. It's not the Sephora witch. It's the Etsy, which, like, that's actually cool.
- [31:45]
Maya Spalter
Yeah. I mean, the Sephora witch, though, like, I want to meet her. Can I hang out with the Sephora witch just for, like, a day? I just want to experience that. Is that a real person?
- [31:53]
Amanda Montell
No, I just remember, like, maybe nine years ago, Sephora did come under fire for selling these, like, very commodified witch kits.
- [32:03]
Maya Spalter
Oh, yeah, yeah. They pulled them, like, immediately. I just want someone to do my makeup that's gorgeous.
- [32:08]
Amanda Montell
Like, way to take something wrong and make it right.
- [32:11]
Maya Spalter
Yeah.
- [32:11]
Amanda Montell
And it's so true, too, that, like, this is my Protestant ethic. Brainwashing. I'm just like, oh, yeah. No, like, obviously a $2,000 spell would be more powerful. Like, but I think the only reason I would think that is because, like, when I would see it online, you know, in theory, I have not paid for magic services online, which is not to say that I wouldn't. It's just like, you know, my mom's from New Orleans, so, like, I have spent a lot of magic practitioners, and if I were to see a spell jar that cost $20 and like, a very authentic looking boutique, I wouldn't question it for a second. But for some reason, seeing it in, like, online inventory, there's something psychological that would go on in my head where I would be like, oh, that's cheap and thus, like, ineffective. I don't know what that is.
- [32:54]
Maya Spalter
You don't have anything to go on. You don't know what it smells like. Yeah. You don't know what it feels like.
- [32:58]
Amanda Montell
Totally.
- [32:59]
Maya Spalter
You're not having a sensory experience. You're having an experience of a photograph and another number.
- [33:03]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. And that's not very magical.
- [33:05]
Maya Spalter
Well, the sensory experience is the thing that is the spell. Like, the thing that you can't be ineffable.
- [33:11]
Amanda Montell
And to your point, too, about, like, the hassle, there's something incongruous about, like, the instant gratification of purchasing something online and a spell.
- [33:21]
Maya Spalter
No, Something has to happen. Things have to happen along the way. It needs to be an event or story.
- [33:27]
Amanda Montell
Yeah. Like, that is the magic part.
- [33:29]
Maya Spalter
Yeah.
- [33:30]
Amanda Montell
Okay. But you said very wisely that there's nothing new under the sun. And this is like just a slightly newer iteration of something that's always been happening. And to my understanding, witchcraft has always been about adaptation. And I'm wondering how you see social media as a part of that lineage. So to put it succinctly like, how can online witch communities foster what you perceive to be real connection? But also, how might they encourage performative spirituality in a way that could be considered cultish in a bad sense in Europe opinion.
- [34:01]
Maya Spalter
What seems cultish, I guess, in a very light way, I suppose, is like taking on a fashion and aesthetic of witchcraft as its own means and ends. That was like my first instinct to be like, that's bad, that's bad. But that's glamour, that's magic, and that's witchcraft. And that always has been, like, surface level things and illusion. If you know that's what you're dealing with and you're in control of it to the extent that you can be what, that's not a problem. Eyeliner is a magic tool. Whatever. It's culty. When you give your power away to anyone and to anything, it's not very specific, obviously, to just.
- [34:39]
Amanda Montell
No, I love that blanket. That.
- [34:41]
Maya Spalter
But that's my check. That's my rubric. That's how I tell the difference. Am I empowering myself or some other.
- [34:48]
Amanda Montell
Entity that is so astute because we have this kind of informal rubric in the back of our minds that sounds like a cult, a checklist, if you will, where we're like, okay, if a group has. Has us versus them, mentalities and. And ends justify the means, philosophy, and exploitation of various kinds, whether it's like, labor, financial or physical or whatever. And then, you know, maybe there's a charismatic leader.
- [35:11]
Maya Spalter
Da, da, da.
- [35:11]
Amanda Montell
There's like this whole list, but you put it so well. It's like, are you giving your power away kind of permanently? You know, like, if you want to surrender a bit of power for 30 minutes, Slay, you know, like with. With consent, pop off. Are you giving power away to the point that you've now sacrificed agency in a way that doesn't feel good? I don't like that either.
- [35:32]
Maya Spalter
Yeah. Just seems like a really clear line. And otherwise we're having fun. I want to take spiritual matters very seriously. Except for when I don't like. Except for when I don't. I feel like frivolity is spiritual. Lightness is spiritual.
- [35:51]
Amanda Montell
Yes.
- [35:52]
Maya Spalter
Just kind of want to always remember that. Especially when the price point is, like, slow. Do a spell literally.
- [35:58]
Amanda Montell
No. Like, what's the harm? And that point that you just made also highlights another sign that something might be too cultish for comfort. When someone is, like, splitting things into. Everything is only serious or unserious. Everything is only good or only bad. Everything is only magic or not. I feel like it's more magical for everything to be complicated and hazy all the time?
- [36:20]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, absolutely.
- [36:21]
Amanda Montell
Fog from a fog machine.
- [36:22]
Maya Spalter
Also, you know, something that I know you've studied is that of the difference between being magical and thinking magically and magical thinking. Is there a line?
- [36:34]
Amanda Montell
Probably.
- [36:35]
Maya Spalter
Do I have any idea where it is? No, not all the time. But I'm curious about it and I remind myself that it exists. How about that? That's a way to be somewhat less culty, is to remind yourself that there is meaning in everything and then there's a point at which the finding of meaning in everything can make you lose the plot.
- [36:53]
Amanda Montell
That is so true. And I also had a cut chapter in my book the Age of Magical Overthinking that explored why. Why, despite me not believing in God or an afterlife or anything like that, why do I fuck so hard with ghosts and witchcraft? Why? Like, what's going on up there in my mind? And I came across this research. I shared this cut chapter on my newsletter. I'll put it in our show notes. But I came across this study that said that because women generally have a stronger theory of mind or the ability to conceive of the idea. Idea that other people have different motivations and reasons for the choices that they make, we're able to step inside another person's mind a little bit better, otherwise known as empathy. And because of that mutable nature of our minds, we are able to conceive of the mind being separate from the body a little more easily. And if you can separate the mind from the body more easily, then one step beyond that is believing in. In spirits that can live without a body. Ghosts. I found that very, very interesting and a sort of wild explanation for. I mean, yeah, empathy is magic. If you can put your mind in another person's body via empathy, surprise, you're a witch.
- [38:15]
Maya Spalter
I think. Yeah, but exactly. I mean, that goes back to talking about metaphor. It's like if you can identify outside of your experience, you realize that you're not trapped in your experience. And you can be expansive in a lot of way. And I feel like that's a very literary notion for me, just in terms of, like, what happens when you read and what happens when you make a metaphor when you decide that your heart is like a window pane? No, it's not. Yes, it is. You make it be. And that's the kind of manipulation of reality that is available and attractive about witchcraft. Yes, in the same way.
- [38:52]
Amanda Montell
Totally. Now, I do think, and we, you know, you touched on this, that when time. Times are Crisis ridden. That can pave the way for those who are more interested in clout and power than empathy or sincere connection to manipulate others in a bad way and in a way that they don't want to end after 30 minutes and $20. And so that's something to look out for when temperatures are high. Culturally is like, what is this online practitioner's end game? What am I really signing up for here? And I'm wondering, like, for an Etsy witch, what might some of their end games be?
- [39:31]
Maya Spalter
I guess people really like to think of themselves as badass, powerful witches. Don't mess with me, I'll smite you. I think that would be a really cool power pose if I could ever convince myself that it looked good and suited me and like, works out great in the end. But yeah, I don't know. Some people take that pose and it's true to them and it's great. I'm not anti villain in this rant at all. I think it's cool. I just don't identify, but I think it's cool.
- [39:57]
Amanda Montell
Well, it's cool when you can choose independently to fuck with that person or not with eyes wide open. But like, I have always admired villains. I've been obsessed with villains. My childhood icon was Captain Hook. He's a diva. He's a sensitive, wussy little diva. And I was just like, I see you, sir. But what you just said reminded me of something very interesting that goes back to like the rhyming we were thinking about at the beginning of this conversation. Like, poetry is a story spell. When language makes you feel something and causes material change in the world because of those feelings or actions or whatever. Like, that's a spell. And in times when I've felt disempowered, I have sometimes called upon rhyming axioms to help psych myself into power. So I learned from my entertainment attorney the phrase breaknecks cash checks. I do not subscribe to this mentality.
- [40:50]
Maya Spalter
You don't have to do it all the time.
- [40:52]
Amanda Montell
I'm not like every day waking up being like, breaknecks. Cash checks today. But sometimes, like with a twinkle in your eye, with a wink. Unserious and serious both. And I'm like, okay, I feel really disempowered in this negotiation. I just need a break. Next, Cash checks. And for me, that is magic.
- [41:08]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, nobody is magic. It actually makes money for you. You left with more money. Sometimes get yourself a nice average of times that it works really well.
- [41:18]
Amanda Montell
Okay, couple more questions and then I want to play A cheeky game.
- [41:21]
Maya Spalter
Okay.
- [41:22]
Amanda Montell
Do you think the Etsy witch phenomenon has centralized leaders or is it more of a constellation of micro leaders with each of their own followings?
- [41:31]
Maya Spalter
I think it is a constellation for sure. I have not heard of any Lord High Etsy Witch who is the ruler of them all. And if they are out there again, I want to know. Show yourself.
- [41:44]
Amanda Montell
Show yourself. Okay. Witchcraft is a very ritual focused practice. Practice. And I'm wondering, are there any specifically online rituals that you've seen that seem particularly culty rituals that exist by the nature of the online medium?
- [42:01]
Maya Spalter
Well, yeah. When I wrote my book, I had just started working at Enchantments again, and it was like the beginning. Trump hadn't been elected yet, but it was the election season and there was this thing going around online in many different forms. But I guess it was probably. It definitely had to be, like, more Facebook and Instagram than. People were buying orange candles to hex Trump and we ran out of them and I didn't understand. I was like, why are we running out of orange candles all the time? Like, why are people coming in for this? And it was a real wakeup call for me because I was like, something about this moment is driving people to these practices. And it felt a little bit culty to me just because it was like, you know, it's like in spongebob where everybody's wearing a bucket on their head. All of a sudden you're like, why does everybody want an orange candle? Like, this is weird what's going on? And I was not a part of whatever this ritual was. Sort of the same way that, like, I didn't know everybody was knitting little pink hats for that, like, March. I was like, wait, where was I? Nobody told me what was going on. So that's sort of like, I guess, like the everyone knows a thing that I don't. That gives me a creepy cult vibe. That was a long time ago. It's only continued. But that was, like, one situation that I was sure there was a secret.
- [43:09]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, you're like, what side of social media am I not on right now? And like, how did the word get out? That's super, super interesting. So before we get to our verdict today, I want to play a very cheeky game. The game is would you'd rather Cult of Online Witches Edition. So I'm going to present a sequence of would you rather scenarios, and you're just going to say which one you'd rather do. And there's no way to win or lose first round. Would you rather have to pay an Etsy witch $25 to put a hex on you or follow a problematic Instagram therapist and never be able to mute or unfollow them.
- [43:52]
Maya Spalter
Self hexing sounds kind of rad. I think there's a lot of wiggle room in there. You could probably hex yourself into some pretty cool circumstances. So I think I could probably figure out a way to like, hex up.
- [44:06]
Amanda Montell
Like an upcycle and up hex.
- [44:08]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, I think so. I could do it.
- [44:09]
Amanda Montell
I could. Iconic. Next round. Would you rather only be able to shop on Etsy for all of your beauty and wellness needs for the rest of your life, or only be able to shop at Costco for your beauty and wellness needs for the rest of your life?
- [44:21]
Maya Spalter
Oh, this is tricky. I mean, it's not tricky. It's a really easy answer. I would definitely pick Etsy. God, what does that say about me?
- [44:30]
Amanda Montell
No, absolutely same. But Costco culties ride for Costco.
- [44:37]
Maya Spalter
I make like an annual pilgrimage. I don't have anything where it's just like, you see me, I see you Costco. Like, I'm not like one with Costco, but like, I get it. I understand that feeling of security. Just like there's no scarcity here.
- [44:49]
Amanda Montell
Oh, yeah, such a good point. Such a good point. It's abundance.
- [44:52]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, it's abundance. It's a beautiful feeling, but I like really crunchy things. Like, I used to make my own face oil with like, I mean, I guess it was sort of a potion, but you know, just like rubbing olive oil into my skin. Like I. Yeah, not Costco.
- [45:05]
Amanda Montell
I'm so with you now that we're talking about this. I really, I love Etsy and I buy a of lot of shit on Etsy. Would you rather base your next month of choices on the predictions of a $30 Etsy witch psychic reading or base your next month of choices on the astrology app Costar's push notifications?
- [45:22]
Maya Spalter
Oh, I don't know if it was like I had like a weird end of the algorithm on Costar, but Costar was always negging me really hard. It just made me feel like an idiot. It was like you and your stupid feelings or something. I don't know what it was always, but it made me feel sad. So I guess the other choice, I think the astrology is solid and everything. It was just like the way it interacted with my ph or something. I was like, are you being mean to me?
- [45:49]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, no, the co star push notifications are a bully.
- [45:53]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, I had that sense as well.
- [45:55]
Amanda Montell
Okay, so we're going with Etsy Witch psychic reading.
- [45:58]
Maya Spalter
Cool.
- [45:59]
Amanda Montell
Two more. Would you rather receive a $500 gift card to spend on the Etsy Witch of your choosing or at Chick Fil A?
- [46:05]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, I'm going with the Etsy Witch again, for sure. 500. That sounds fine. Yeah, no, I ate at a Chick Fil a recently, and it was one of the more alienating experiences that I've had. And it wasn't the Chick Fil A's fault.
- [46:19]
Amanda Montell
It probably was.
- [46:20]
Maya Spalter
Okay, maybe it was. I took it on myself. I felt like, oh, I'm from another planet. Everyone here thinks this is normal. And I feel like I've just, like, stepped through the airlock into, like, some whole other environment.
- [46:30]
Amanda Montell
Don't let them gaslight you like that.
- [46:32]
Maya Spalter
I'm okay. Yeah. Definitely no Chick Fil a for sure. And definitely more Etsy products. I bet the witches have some really good scents. Oil blends, incense, things like that. I could use those things.
- [46:44]
Amanda Montell
Okay, last. Would you rather. Would you rather have to get into an Instagram comment debate with an exvangelical Republican turned Etsy Witch anti vax conspiracualist or an incel.
- [46:58]
Maya Spalter
Ooh, bad choices. I want to not answer, but I just feel really blessed. In all these many years of, like, public witchery on the Internet, I've never done either and I never will.
- [47:13]
Amanda Montell
It's gorgeous.
- [47:14]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, good.
- [47:16]
Amanda Montell
Let's abstain from engaging with that round of. Would you rather, as is your right, you have agency. I'm not a cult leader. Maya, thank you so, so much for participating in this interview in this game. I have but one final question for you. And. And it goes like this. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out, which category do you think the cult of Etsy witches falls.
- [47:43]
Maya Spalter
Into, considering that they're utterly avoidable? I say live your life, but watch your back. But I say that about everything.
- [47:50]
Amanda Montell
Yeah, totally. Okay, so I feel like this is really apt here. It's a live your life sun, It's a watch your back moon, and it's probably a live your life rising.
- [48:00]
Maya Spalter
Yeah, it's a Live youe Life rising. I mean, like, there are definitely some get the out scenarios that exist.
- [48:06]
Amanda Montell
Sure.
- [48:07]
Maya Spalter
But, yeah, like I say, totally avoidable. Keep your power, keep your price point, and he's gonna be okay.
- [48:14]
Amanda Montell
You're so right. Thank you for this extremely grounding spell of a conversation.
- [48:19]
Maya Spalter
Thank you.
- [48:19]
Amanda Montell
If folks want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that?
- [48:23]
Maya Spalter
I'M Maya Spalter. Pretty much everywhere. Instagram my website website myspalter.com beautiful.
- [48:30]
Amanda Montell
Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.
- [48:36]
Maya Spalter
But not too culty.
- [48:45]
Amanda Montell
Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com sounds like a cult.
- [49:46]
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- [50:13]
Amanda Montell
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
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- [50:18]
Amanda Montell
Could you be more specific?
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Commercial Voice
When it's cravinient.
- [50:21]
Maya Spalter
Okay.
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Commercial Voice
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- [50:29]
Maya Spalter
I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [50:30]
Commercial Voice
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
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Amanda Montell
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
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- [50:43]
Amanda Montell
Hello, overthinkers. It's your host, Amanda here with a very exciting something extra to tune into. This week. My beloved husband and I were guests on the Starter Marriage podcast hosted by my friends Allison Raskin and John Blakesley. In this episode, I got more personal about my real life than I ever have ever on a microphone. In fact, my husband Casey is here right now. Say hello.
- [51:12]
Maya Spalter
Hello everyone.
- [51:14]
Amanda Montell
He's new to podcasting, but in the episode, we talked about our engagement story. Why the hell should a person get married? We talked about how we met, how he dumped me when we were in high school on aim, we spilled the tea on what we think makes our marriage oh so special. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. Starter Marriage is a fantastic show that explores modern marriage, and you can listen to it every Monday wherever you get your podcasts, including on YouTube.