The Cult of Harry Potter

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Cult of Harry Potter"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sounds Like A Cult
• Host: Amanda Montel
• Co-Hosts: Chelsea Charles and Reese Oliver
• Production: Studio71
• Release Date: January 21, 2025

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Sounds Like A Cult, host Amanda Montel delves into the pervasive phenomenon of the Harry Potter fandom, questioning whether it exhibits cult-like characteristics. Joined by Reese Oliver and special guests Mike Schubert and Sequoia Simone, the discussion navigates the intricate dynamics of one of the most influential fan communities in modern culture.

---

The Cultural Phenomenon of Harry Potter

Amanda Montel begins by highlighting the monumental impact of the Harry Potter series, noting its status as the best-selling book series globally with over 600 million copies sold. She references a Vox article, "How Harry Potter Changed the World," and a 2011 poll indicating that nearly a third of Americans aged 18-34 had read at least one Harry Potter book.

Amanda Montel [05:48]:
"Harry Potter has, over the last 30 years, permeated our culture and our consumption like few other pieces in media have..."

This widespread reach has transformed Harry Potter from a beloved book series into a cultural and almost religious phenomenon, influencing everything from literature to theme parks.

---

Fandom Structure and Dynamics

The co-hosts discuss how the timing of the Harry Potter releases coincided with the rise of the internet, creating a perfect environment for the fandom to flourish. Reese Oliver compares the fandom's structure to religious practices, emphasizing the deep immersion fans have into the Harry Potter universe.

Reese Oliver [16:37]:
"When you have books that are coming out and you're a kid and you like it and you get all into it, you want to talk about it..."

Mike Schubert adds that the continuous release of books and movies fostered an environment ripe for cult-like devotion, with fans eagerly anticipating each new installment and engaging deeply with the content.

---

Impact of J.K. Rowling's Controversies

A significant portion of the episode addresses the fallout from J.K. Rowling's controversial statements starting in 2018. The hosts explore how her actions have created divisions within the fandom, leading to a reassessment of loyalty among fans.

Sequoia Simone [49:12]:
"...she's spreading these like awful, harmful, hate speech filled messages."

The discussion highlights how prominent figures from the Harry Potter movies, including Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson, have publicly criticized Rowling, influencing fans to distance themselves from her while maintaining their love for the series.

Mike Schubert [55:00]:
"Daniel Radcliffe repeatedly, Emma Watson repeatedly, Rupert Grint... all those huge mega celebrities stepped up to the plate to call it out."

---

Cult-like Characteristics in Harry Potter Fandom

The conversation delves into specific elements that can be seen as cult-like within the Harry Potter fandom:

1. Language and Terminology: The use of specialized terms like "Patronus," "Muggle," and "Snitch Witches" creates an in-group language that reinforces community identity.

   Reese Oliver [29:19]:
   "I would say the OGs sort of know when you ask them what the three year summer is."

2. Rituals and Hierarchies: Participation in conventions, fanfiction writing, and cosplay activities act as rituals that strengthen communal bonds and establish hierarchies based on engagement levels.

   Mike Schubert [41:17]:
   "These conventions are like very queer... they're very accepting and welcoming."

3. Immersive Experience: The extensive lore, merchandise, and theme parks like the Wizarding World of Harry Potter offer fans multiple avenues to immerse themselves fully in the Harry Potter universe.

   Amanda Montel [28:16]:
   "The lore of Harry Potter is extremely developed and detailed and there is like a decently high barrier to entry..."

---

Guest Insights

Mike Schubert, host of the Potterless podcast, shares his journey from skepticism to deep appreciation of the Harry Potter series. Initially aiming to critique the series, Mike found himself enamored by its depth and cultural significance.

Mike Schubert [08:44]:
"...I fall in love with the books. By the time I was done with book three, it turned into just me loving the series."

Sequoia Simone, co-host of Fanatical Fix and Where to Find Them, discusses her experiences with fan conventions and the nurturing environment they provide for fans to express their love for the series creatively.

Sequoia Simone [16:22]:
"...the closest thing that I have ever had to a religious experience is a wizard rock concert."

---

Cult Leader Game Segment

In a playful segment, the hosts engage with guests by sorting real-world figures into Hogwarts houses, drawing parallels between their personalities and the traits associated with Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, and Slytherin.

Amanda Montel:
"Number one, Dolly Parton."

Reese Oliver [62:22]:
"Dolly feels like a Gryffindor... or Hufflepuff."

This segment underscores the deep connection fans have with the Hogwarts houses as a means of categorizing and understanding both fictional characters and real-life personalities.

---

Conclusions

The episode concludes with the hosts categorizing the Harry Potter fandom within their defined cult categories. Sequoia Simone identifies it as "Live Your Life," suggesting that the community primarily provides a positive and enriching environment for its members.

Sequoia Simone [69:34]:
"...it seems like the people there are having a really good time and I can't fault them for it."

Amanda Montel reflects on the fragmentation of the fandom, attributing it to the community's resilience and the diverse ways fans engage with the Harry Potter universe.

Amanda Montel [70:42]:
"...it is too fractured to do serious harm as one cult-like presence."

The hosts affirm that while the fandom exhibits many cult-like traits, its current state remains largely positive and fragmented enough to prevent it from becoming a harmful cult.

Amanda Montel [71:00]:
"Live your life. Potterheads."

---

Notable Quotes

• Reese Oliver [16:37]:
  "When you have books that are coming out and you're a kid and you like it and you get all into it, you want to talk about it..."

• Sequoia Simone [49:12]:
  "...she's spreading these like awful, harmful, hate speech filled messages."

• Mike Schubert [55:00]:
  "...all those huge mega celebrities stepped up to the plate to call it out."

• Reese Oliver [29:19]:
  "I would say the OGs sort of know when you ask them what the three year summer is."

• Amanda Montel [28:16]:
  "The lore of Harry Potter is extremely developed and detailed and there is like a decently high barrier to entry..."

---

Final Thoughts

"The Cult of Harry Potter" episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the Harry Potter fandom, analyzing its depth, cultural impact, and the thin line it walks between passionate fandom and cult-like behavior. Through thoughtful discussion and insightful guest contributions, the episode provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of what makes Harry Potter fans so devoted and how the community has navigated internal and external challenges over the years.

---

For more detailed insights and discussions, tune into Sounds Like A Cult on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Amanda Montel]

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

[Reese Oliver]

I don't know a Snape Wife. I'll put that out there first. I've never met a Snape wife. I have not interrogated a Snape wife. But the Snape wives are a group of people who feel that they are spiritually bonded to Severus Snape.

[Amanda Montel]

What that is Cult Y In a sort of like fanatical, ritualistic and borderline delusional way, this is Sounds Like a Cult, A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of the books Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

[Sequoia Simone]

And I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator and today's co host. Every week on this show you're going to hear about a different zeitgeist y group that puts the cult in culture, from astrology apps to cruise ships. To try and answer the big question.

[Amanda Montel]

This group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A Live youe Life, A Watch your Back or a Get the Fuck Out? After all, cultish influence falls on a small spectrum. There is so much cultiness out there these days in the 21st century America, whether you're talking about your celebrity fandoms or your fictional novel fandoms, or when corporate offices describe their employees as a family. But the thing is, not all cultishness is equally bad. This show is here to poke a little bit of fun at human beings. Search for meaning these days in the digital age, but also to critically scrutinize which culty seeming groups out there are kind of harmless or even net positive, and which ones are destructive even if they might not look like a cult on the outside. Today we have an overdue topic. We're talking about the Cult of Harry Potter.

[Reese Oliver]

Ha ha.

[Amanda Montel]

I don't know. This feels like Magician Y to laugh like that.

[Sequoia Simone]

Magician Y Wow. I feel like some Harry Potter fan is already offended.

[Reese Oliver]

God. Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dress season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 from tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and free returns in store order, pickup and more. Shop today in stores [e-mail] or download the Nordstrom app. On WhatsApp, no one can see or.

[Sequoia Simone]

Hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this.

[Amanda Montel]

So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay.

[Reese Oliver]

Between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us.

[Amanda Montel]

WhatsApp message privately with everyone. I am nervous. I mean, how do you feel, body and mind, going into this recording today?

[Sequoia Simone]

Body, mind and spirit. I feel a wee bit scared.

[Amanda Montel]

Why?

[Sequoia Simone]

I want to get it right. I want to be respectful.

[Amanda Montel]

Well, I feel like this is a vulnerable group because. And we will analyze this more in depth later. But, like, is it appropriate to say that it's a cult with mommy issues?

[Sequoia Simone]

I mean, yeah, it has been abandoned or it has gone rogue, so to speak. It has rebelled against their leader and now they're wandering. Nomadic people.

[Amanda Montel]

Right. There are nomadic wayfaring peoples, the Potterheads. So I want to be sensitive to them as well. But at the same time, I feel in the way that I feel swifty passing. I feel Potterhead passing.

[Sequoia Simone]

You are very Potterhead coded. Like, if I did not know you and I saw you walking down the street, I would be like, that woman is a Hufflepuff and knows it.

[Amanda Montel]

Like, oh, what? No, I'm a Ravenclaw. Come on.

[Sequoia Simone]

Okay, my bad. Well, you're deceptively. You're a very bubbly gal.

[Amanda Montel]

You. You think I'm bubbly?

[Sequoia Simone]

You have a very Sprite like presence.

[Amanda Montel]

Thank you so much. Is that huffly? Puffily.

[Sequoia Simone]

I mean, that's kind of just like the general exuberance is kind of the Hufflepuff vibe that I've gathered. I feel like we should establish this early. I have not read a Harry Potter book, nor have I seen a Harry Potter film in its entirety.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, which makes sense sort of generationally. But you're kind of Harry Potter coded, too.

[Sequoia Simone]

I read a lot of books as a child, so people are often surprised when I.

[Amanda Montel]

Right. It's like, if you've read a book, odds are it's Harry Pot.

[Sequoia Simone]

Yeah, exactly. They're like, wait, you didn't have any friends? There's no way you didn't read Harry Potter. But no, fantasy was never really my thing. It always just kind of felt like a little to the left of what I was into. I was a Series of Unfortunate Events kid, so.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, my God. That makes a World of sense. They have some aesthetic similarities, like the dark academia.

[Sequoia Simone]

Little children really love a gothic aesthetic. I don't know why, but they do.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, well, I think especially when it's British. And we're gonna get into that later, too.

[Mike Schubert]

We are.

[Amanda Montel]

So Harry Potter is obviously an empire. It's a cinematic universe, which is a phrase that comes up a lot on this show. But I would venture to argue that at this point, it's also become a culture and even a new religion of sorts. So to do our due diligence, to be responsible podcasters. Rhys, could you give us a little bit of background about the magical, mystical, potentially culty, wizarding world of Harry Potter?

[Sequoia Simone]

Harry Potter is a fantasy book series written by J.K. rowling. We will address Joanne later. Harry Potter has, over the last 30 years, permeated our culture and our consumption like few other pieces in media have, establishing a presence everywhere from your local library to Ulta Beauty. He's everywhere. After Scholastic brought attention to the British Series by purchasing US publishing rights for $105,000, the novels became a childhood staple for millions. And thusly, people have engaged with the series to their heart's content. It's a world. Yes. And that is partially because it has been almost 28 years since the release of the first novel, Harry Potter and the Philosopher Sorcerer. If you're an uneducated American Stone Potterheads still remain one of society's most pervasive and notorious fandoms, which makes this topic long overdue for Slack. As a longtime Slack listener, I'm surprised it's not been done already.

[Amanda Montel]

I know, but, like, there are a lot of cults. We got there.

[Sequoia Simone]

We will get to them.

[Amanda Montel]

I know. Like, every time we were getting close to approaching Harry Potter on the spreadsheet, a freaking docu series about the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders would come out. It's like, we got there. We got there. It's evergreen. And the long tail of Harry Potter fanaticism is an element in this cultish recipe that seems sort of like a given on its face.

[Sequoia Simone]

So, as a millennial, Amanda, what is your relationship to the cult of Harry Potter?

[Amanda Montel]

Why does it sound like a slur, the word millennial?

[Sequoia Simone]

Well, I think because Harry Potter fans fall into the same millennial fandom cult space that Disney adults do.

[Amanda Montel]

Almost. Yeah, you're right. Okay. So, yeah, I'm 32. Harry Potter came out when I was in, like, fourth grade. I was the perfect age to receive it. Let me preface by saying I could read at the age of nine, but my mom Would read the Harry Potter books to me so that I could fall asleep at nighttime as like a sweet sort of bedtime story situation. But I like you. I was not all in my favorite books in fourth grade were the Chicken Soup for the Preteen Soul books. I was always a nonfiction girly. I always preferred the section on death and dying.

[Sequoia Simone]

Oh, of course. You need to be prepared.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, exactly. No, I just. I live my life preparing for death, obviously. But yeah, no, I always just wanted to read short essays about death.

[Sequoia Simone]

Just light reading. Nothing as intense as Harry Potter.

[Amanda Montel]

No, no. I think I actually love Harry Potter more in theory than I do in practice. The first couple movies are super nostalgic for me. I think they are enchanting and whimsical. That film score a masterpiece. But I'm by no means in the fandom. What about you, Rhys? Like what is your personal relation to the series?

[Sequoia Simone]

So I mostly knew about Harry Potter through like the eyes of older fans that I witnessed around me and fanfiction that I like lived next to as I read. Not Harry Potter fanfiction, but didn't really ever interact with deeply.

[Amanda Montel]

It's wild that by the time you were literally alive, Harry Potter was inescapable. It's a religion. Like it is low key. A worldwide religion.

[Sequoia Simone]

One of our guests today's podcast entire premise relies upon Harry Potter fanfiction that was published before I turned five. That's great.

[Amanda Montel]

That's mental. Okay, so let's quantify this cult a little bit more before we get into our interview, which I am so excited for the culties to hear. This is wild, but these books are the best selling book series in the world with over 600 million copies sold worldwide. I'm pretty sure the only book that has sold better is the Bible. A Vox article we'll be coming back to throughout this discuss today titled How Harry Potter Changed the World by Constance Grady and Asia Romano shared a 2011 poll suggesting that a whole last third of Americans between the ages of 18 and 34 had read at least one Harry Potter book. So that's like the millennial generation. To put that in perspective. The same year Pew Research found that fewer than a quarter of American millennials believed that the Bible was the word of God. So just to show like how cultural insight. Exactly. Putting the cult in culture. The Harry Potter series, which has now expanded into a veritably generation defining $25 billion franchise that's only as of 2016. So holy patron. Movies, toys, theme parks, theatrical productions, et cetera has varying degrees of suffocative power depending on your age and interests. The Harry Potter fandom has very clearly grown into something so much larger than the scope of a mere young adult fantasy series, and the number of ways that you can engage with the world of Hogwarts and its students seems only to be growing, even though the last book came out almost 20 years ago. @ this point, like the galaxy that is, the Harry Potter franchise and the lore that comes with it is expansive and intimidating. And if you're not a die hard Potterhead, it can be overwhelming to dissect. But dissecting it is indeed something that we're going to need to do today to figure out if Harry Potter is a Live youe Life. Watch your back or get the Fuck out. And here to help us do exactly that are two very special, special figures in the Cult of Harry Potter. One is the host of the Potterless podcast, Mike Schubert. The other is one of the hosts of the Fanatical Fix and Where to Find Them podcast, Sequoia Simone. We are so fun excited for you to hear our conversation with these two. Let's freaking go.

[Mike Schubert]

Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints, and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

[Sequoia Simone]

Jack Jack and Coke.

[Amanda Montel]

Shot of Jack. Jack Daniels, please.

[Mike Schubert]

Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof.

[Amanda Montel]

With the Venmo debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch.

[Sequoia Simone]

You can Venmo this or their next.

[Reese Oliver]

Show, you can Venmo that.

[Amanda Montel]

Visit Venmo me deb to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International Incorporated, the card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. Sequoia and Mike, welcome to Sounds like a Cult. Thank you for being here.

[Sequoia Simone]

Hello.

[Mike Schubert]

Thank you for having us. Hello. Good to be here.

[Amanda Montel]

Could you do us the honor of introducing yourselves separately and together? Because you two know each other, you're in the same cult.

[Reese Oliver]

Yes, yes. Truthfully. Truthfully, it's both the cult of podcasting and the culture of Harry Potter. They're both. Yeah, it's where the Venn diagram meets. That's where we live. Yeah. So, hello, I'm Sequoia. I am one half of the podcast Fanatical Fics and where to find them, which is a comedy Harry Potter fan fiction podcast where we read sort of the wildest, wackiest stuff that we can find from pre 2008. We are living in nostalgia. We're dripping. We love it.

[Mike Schubert]

My name is Mike Schuber. I am the creator of Potterless, which is a Harry Potter podcast where I had never read the books before. So it was my first time reading them, was going through the show as an adult. I started when I was like 25. So I came in thinking I was going to dunk on the series and make fun of it and poke out plot holes and stuff. But as I got farther in, I fell in love with the books. And by the time I was done with book three, it turned into just me loving the series. And then I went on to do the books and the movies and all the other stuff. And then J.K. rowling became publicly a terrible person. So I hard pivoted into only doing fan made stuff and trashing her every single episode for like a year. And then I stopped making Potter list to make a show with a similar structure, but about the Percy Jackson books called the Newest Olympian. So you have you come to two of the right people. And Sequoia and I were talking earlier just about our, like, knowledge to try and make sure we are the experts you so desire for this. And Sequoia was like, super, super in the thick of it up until like the late 2000 and tens. And then I was super in the thick of it starting in the late 2010s. So our powers combined. You should know everything. And if we get anything wrong, don't email us.

[Reese Oliver]

I don't have an email.

[Amanda Montel]

Simply keep it to yourselves. Before we get into it, I was just gonna ask, in what corner of the cult did you two meet?

[Mike Schubert]

We had met at a podcasting convention. Not a Harry Potter specific one, but this was like a podcasting convention. It was podcon, which was in Seattle. I don't even know what year it was. 2019, but 2019, okay. So it was at that point and that's how Sequoia and I met. And I feel like we were operating in a similar Harry Potter space of like, loving the stuff but being okay to make fun of the stuff. And there's certainly other Harry Potter podcasts that were like, we love the stuff and we won't make fun of the stuff. And I think the two of us, I really like that Sequoia seemed to have like a similar approach. And then I think when the JK stuff kind of got it was not hard for me, at least, because I had no nostalgia at all. But it was nice and easy for me to pivot into, like, oh, she's bad. I have no problem calling her out in Sequoia. And Sequoia's co host Kim did a very good job of calling out the crap as well. So, yeah, I would say Harry Potter podcasting would be our specific corner, but then our audiences are very much aligned, which I would say is, like, nice Harry Potter fans who get it and weren't afraid to push JK out of their focus when she started to become very publicly transphobic.

[Reese Oliver]

For sure. Yeah, Mike was actually the very first ever guest on my podcast. And then Mike let us come on at one point and take over his podcast for over a month, reading the My Immortal Fanfiction, reviewing that. So, you know, we've done a lot of different, you know, Harry Potter stuff together. Yeah, we really have.

[Amanda Montel]

Angelic. Okay, let's get motherfucking into it.

[Sequoia Simone]

So first off, what about Harry Potter and the Harry Potter universe makes it cultier than other franchises, in your opinion? Is it the cultural impact? Is there, like, culty rituals, fan hierarchy? What specifically about Harry Potter makes it so culty?

[Reese Oliver]

That is such a difficult question, because I feel like there are parts of the fandom that are cultier than other parts. The of. Of the fandom. You can walk up to, like, a random millennial on the street and be like, what's your Hogwarts house? And, like, they'll tell you. And that's kind of like your baseline person out in the world who, like, either read the books or saw the movies or did both of those things and likes them. And then you have the people who, like, have the books, they love the books, buy a lot of merch. They've been to Wizarding World of Harry Potter, you know, but they are not necessarily immersed in the fandom itself. And then I think the cultish bits come a lot into play for me as a person who's, like, deep fandom was going to Harry Potter conventions in, like, 2010 era. Really in it. When I was coming on this podcast, my first thought was, like, the closest thing that I have ever had to a religious experience is a wizard rock concert. Like, seeing Harry and the Potters live is like my form of church.

[Mike Schubert]

I think also what can lead to some of the cultier nature is just, like, the structure of how the stuff from the Harry Potter universe came out. And obviously this is me coming late to it, so this is me kind of, like, looking back but when you have books that are coming out and they're like split up, where one is releasing a year and you're a kid and you like it and you get all into it, you're just all consumed by it and you want to talk about it, it seems like a lot of the books will either have clif endings or, like, how does this affect the big picture? So I think naturally, when you're waiting for the next book to come out, you talk to your friends about what's happening in the book. Online forums spring up, podcasts spring up, people start having conversations about it. You do that for all the books. Then the movies are coming out. Then there's speculation about what's gonna be in the movies, who's gonna be cast, what are the differences gonna be? The movie's finished. Now they're making a play. What's the play gonna be about? Okay, the play is out. It's terrible. You know, like, I think there's just, like, there was constantly things being brought in and brought in and brought in, and people had just started as kids having these conversations, and then they got older and older and they continued to have these conversations. And I think that obviously this is all like, before JK's terrible, but, like, it's a very welcoming space and there's a lot of different characters. You can see yourself in a lot of different characters, even if you're not seeing yourself in one of the main characters. You see the Hufflepuffs and you're like, oh, the chill people. Like, yeah, that seems kind of nice. Or the Ravenclaws, you're like, oh, the nerds. So I think it's a world in which a lot of people can see themselves. And I think that it has, like, a lot of wide appeal. And if you super really want to get into it, it's not that hard to do. So there's so many ways to do it. And then I think that can lead into culty type stuff. But like Sequoia is saying, I think there's good elements, I think there's bad elements.

[Reese Oliver]

Something that that helps the cultishness grow is the fact that, like, Mike's talking about, yeah, these books are coming out, like, as we're growing up and ba, ba, ba. And at the exact same time the Internet is coming into prevalence. They were happening at the same time, and nothing else is. Might ever capture that magic in the same way because of just the sheer timing.

[Amanda Montel]

Timing. Yeah.

[Sequoia Simone]

It's just a perfect storm.

[Amanda Montel]

So much about this reminds me of Full on Christianity. Like, it starts with a book and then it just like expands into this immersive, capitalistic, Internet mediated monstrosity with offshoots and like, if you want to go to, you know, an evangelical amusement park and, like, watch an actor get crucified and have that experience, you can just, like, you can go to the wizarding world and like, watch a simulation of Ron and Hermione and Harry, like, I.

[Reese Oliver]

Don'T know, falling for the castle for sure. Yeah. In the same way. Yeah. There is, like good parts and bad parts to both of those things, right? Yeah. And good people and bad people.

[Amanda Montel]

Well, because both religions are humongous.

[Mike Schubert]

And if you want to compare it to like a non religious thing that some people do treat as religion. Like, I think there's a lot of overlap with Star wars as well, just in that there's a bunch of stuff. You can go beyond, like the main canon thing and get super into other things. You can enjoy intense discussions if you're an adult. If you're a kid and you're watching Star wars, it's like, oh, cool, laser swords. And if you're a kid with Harry Potter, it's like, oh, cool, magic wands. Like, there's enough broad appeal to like, lots of different age groups and stuff like that. So I think both of them have similar sort of very, very broad appeal depending on what type of person or what type of nerd you are.

[Amanda Montel]

It's interesting that you make the Star wars comparison. Sometimes when I think of a comp for Harry Potter, I think of Lord of the Rings. But what Christianity, Star wars, and Harry Potter all have in common, that Lord of the Rings kind of doesn't, Is that like, the target is kind of kids.

[Mike Schubert]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montel]

And so, like, yes. If you can capture a youth and give them more fodder throughout their entire life. Yes. Give them nostalgia. Oh, listen. So like, they're hopped up on nostalgia, and then there's like more doors, more levels along the bridge to total freedom. If we're making a Scientology comparison, if you can give them more and more and more throughout their upbringing, you've got them for life. Whereas, like, Lord of the Rings appeals to adults mostly, I would say. And that makes sure, maybe less culty.

[Reese Oliver]

Listen, I think I'm contractually obligated while we're talking about what is the most culty aspects, yada, yada is. Mike, are you familiar with the Snape wives?

[Mike Schubert]

I've heard of this, but I have such a disdain for Snape the character. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Sequoia Simone]

We will give you an opportunity to get to the Snape wives. We'll put it that way. I don't intend to get to the Snape.

[Amanda Montel]

It sounds like a cult episode, has a very specific liturgy, not unlike a religious service. And we're not to that prayer quite yet.

[Sequoia Simone]

We start with the origins.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes.

[Sequoia Simone]

We must go back and start the prologue, so to speak.

[Amanda Montel]

Start with Genesis.

[Sequoia Simone]

Yes. Okay, to get to our next question, let's start with some facts about how exactly these books became almost as worshiped as the Bible itself. So in the late 90s, these books are published in the UK. They do kind of meh. And then there is a Scholastic publishing deal made to publish these books in the US and it is one heck of a deal. It is a $105,000 deal for United States publishing rights. And because this is such a huge publishing deal, they also pour a ton of money into marketing this US Launch. This piece from Vox says, in short, it gave the book many more resources than are typically afforded to the average debut novel from an unknown author. And that decision paid off as a result. They do splendidly. They take off immediately.

[Mike Schubert]

A key thing that was done. You gotta give a shout out to whoever at Scholastic made the call to say, you gotta retitle the book from the Philosopher's Stone to the Sorcerer's Stone. Americans, we're not wise enough to understand philosopher's stone, but Sorcerer's Stone, that's kind of like a wizard, right? Oh, yeah, It's a wizard book. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay.

[Sequoia Simone]

Especially if you're reading these books as a little school child. It's like all of these magical things happening to mysterious British little school children.

[Amanda Montel]

In robes, no less. Classic culty piece of iconography. Train the children to fall in love with black robes. Get em early.

[Reese Oliver]

Yes.

[Sequoia Simone]

That really opens up so many different culty doors for you moving forward. And then Harry Potter is also definitely a gateway to other British fandom cults. I feel like Doctor who, that's a supernatural progression of fandomness that a lot of people undergo.

[Reese Oliver]

Yes.

[Sequoia Simone]

So why do you guys think that the English characters in like, this fantasy setting captured American audiences so religiously? Especially at this cultural moment in the 90s when these books were coming out.

[Reese Oliver]

I think there's something to be said about the fact that, like, there are a bunch of things in these Harry Potter books that are just like normal British things. And as American children, we did not know that. We were like, all of this is magical fantasy. And they're like, Treacle's heart is just.

[Mike Schubert]

Real legit treacle tart. On an episode of Potter's House, I was like, oh, they eat all these magical foods like fizzing wisbees and treacle tart. And then British listeners are like, that's just dessert.

[Reese Oliver]

There's also like boarding school culture. It feels fantastical in a way that's like far away from home, but actually not that far away from home exactly.

[Amanda Montel]

Well, it is both fantastical and accessible because, I mean, before this interview began, we were joking about how the Harry Potter fandom has a little bit of mommy issues, maybe because of. Of she who Shall Not Be Named. And I feel like Americans in general have mommy issues with England as a. As one of their colonies. It's why we like fetishize British accents and British culture. It's like we have abandoned.

[Sequoia Simone]

Well, I mean, we. I guess we left, but we left.

[Amanda Montel]

But like, we were kind of pushed. I don't know, going.

[Sequoia Simone]

No contact is hard.

[Amanda Montel]

Estranged.

[Sequoia Simone]

Strange.

[Amanda Montel]

I do feel like the general cult of the United States as an offshoot of the mainstream religion that was England plays into the approachable exoticism of the cult of Harry Potter.

[Mike Schubert]

I also think that the style of the book, your classic sort of, it's a main character who didn't know that they were magic or important or whatever. And then they're introduced to this world. Like. Like that just usually does well, at least in America. Star wars is that. And Holes by Louis Sakar is that like, there's so many things that are just like, I'm just a normal person and then this wild thing happened to me. And I think that that format just kind of works. And then when you combo that with like Sequoia saying the magical, literal magic, and then the magical like, whoa, Britain. What? Like, there's enough going on that can just be fantastical.

[Amanda Montel]

Harry is a proxy for every little kid reading, right? And like every little kid growing up in America, I mean especially of this generation, was told anything is possible for you.

[Mike Schubert]

You can get your letter to Hogwarts in the mail one day.

[Reese Oliver]

Very American dream coded.

[Amanda Montel]

Very actually, though, but like British flavored. So like.

[Mike Schubert]

So not flavored. Yeah, not flavored without. Distinctly. Without seasoning.

[Amanda Montel]

Just Shepherd's pie flavored. American dream. After Zoomies at the dog park, it's time for Drive up at Target. In goes a big bag of kibble and one squeaky chicken toy for the good boy. Drive Up. That's ready when you are. Only in the Target app. Just tap Target.

[Mike Schubert]

Are you ready to dairy free your mind this summer? Melt away your dairy free Expectations with so delicious Dairy free frozen desserts. Enjoy mind blowing flavors like salted caramel.

[Reese Oliver]

Cluster, chocolate cookies and cream cookie dough and more.

[Mike Schubert]

For over 35 years, so delicious has.

[Reese Oliver]

Been cranking up the flavor with show.

[Mike Schubert]

Stopping products that are 100% dairy free.

[Reese Oliver]

Certified vegan by Vegan Action and are so unbelievably creamy your taste buds will.

[Mike Schubert]

Do a double take.

[Reese Oliver]

Dairy free your mind, visit sodeliciousdairyfree.com.

[Amanda Montel]

So another element that I think differentiates this media empire as cultier than others is the immersion ability, the potential for something Harry Potter to infuse every single corner of a fan's life. There's lingo, there are the Hogwarts houses, patronus robes, spells, etc. The lore of Harry Potter is extremely developed and detailed and there is like a decently high barri to entry it seems in terms of being truly in the know as far as Harry Potter goes, which gives way to certain hierarchies within the fandom. My favorite lens to examine cultishness through is language. I think language is secretly a cult leader's most powerful, albeit invisible tool. And so I wanted to know from each of you what is some deep cut Harry Potter lingo that a casual fan might not know but that you think is especially culty in that it can help you clock a true follower.

[Reese Oliver]

I would say the OGs sort of know when you ask them what the three year summer is. So the three year summer is after the fourth book there was a three year gap between books which had not happened before that. So like Harry left Hogwarts to go to the Dursleys at the end of book four. And then that summer was three years long and there was like an explosion of fandom during that time. So like if you were like online, you're on the message boards, you're on, you know, the leaky Cauldron website, Mugglenet, you are sort of using that kind of terminology. And then I would also say the convention circuit would know snitch witches. Mike, you would know snitch witches.

[Mike Schubert]

I do, I do, yes.

[Reese Oliver]

So Harry and the Potters developed a sandwich that they sold illegally inside of convention spaces so that we wouldn't have to eat that terrible like pizza or nachos or whatever they sell inside those like convention centers at their little like concession stands. It's like so awful and it's just like peanut butter and honey grahams on like white bread. But they would like sell it from underneath like a table, inconspicuously they say. And then it became just like a huge part of this convention fandom.

[Mike Schubert]

Yeah. I think what Sequoia's brought up here is that knowing the terminology of the books, right? So there is like, even within that, like your Hogwarts house is one step, maybe you get into, like, what's your patronus? Then it's like, do you know what your wand and everything would be made out of? Like, there's all the things within the book context that you can do. Then beyond that is the next thing with like the three year summer. Then it's like, okay, do you know, like the big picture fandom sort of terms you talk about? Or if you say something like dreary when you're doing like a ship of Draco and Harry together, like some of those terms just for like fans who are a little more into it than just, I've read every single book and I know all the stuff that goes down. And then the next step is those things like snitch witches, where it's like, I'm so invested in the fandom that I know all the stuff. I'm going to conventions and I know inside jokes at conventions. So there's lots of different layers.

[Amanda Montel]

I can easily conceive of a type of child who grows up only knowing themselves through these Harry Potter devices.

[Reese Oliver]

Amanda, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think anyone did that.

[Amanda Montel]

I want to unpack the note of sarcasm I detected. And in order to do that, I want to phrase it like this. Basically, what is your Hogwarts house is kind of to me like asking someone their astrological sign. It feels like an opportunity to understand someone through this sort of like new religious vibe. First of all, what are each of your Hogwarts houses? How did you figure that out? And then what do you think questions like that and, you know, what is your patronus and stuff signify to fans on this profound level?

[Mike Schubert]

I am very much Gryffindor. I found it out because when Harry Potter released a thing called Pottermore, which when it first came out, it was supposed to be like a game. It was like neopets, but Harry Potter, like, you're in there, you're doing stuff. And even though I was not reading Harry Potter, it was so hyped up, like it was going to be the new social media. And I was like making YouTube videos and stuff at the time that I was like, I got to get in on this just to make sure if this like pops off, I'm here. So I did it. And they had like this sorting quiz in the beginning and the way that the quiz used to be is it would ask you a question and it would have four answers that were very clearly like each geared to one of the four houses. And then you would pick that and then there would be a follow up question because it would like narrow it down to two and then you'd have the next one. So there was a question that was like, if someone's in trouble, would you save them? And it was like, yes or no? I said yes. And then the follow up question was, if you saved them, would you want people to know about it? And I was like, oh, well, yeah. And that was the thing where like I had thought I was Hufflepuff because I like pride myself on being a good friend and like trying to get along with a lot of people. So I thought going into this I was going to be Hufflepuff. When they asked that question, I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I'm a Gryffindor.

[Amanda Montel]

I don't think I've met a Gryffindor. This is like a huge moment.

[Reese Oliver]

That's so.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh wait, Rhys, you're a Gryffindor. I am.

[Sequoia Simone]

And I found that out because as how you've mentioned on the POD before. I went to an arts high school and there's a whole section of the campus that is portable classrooms that the school administration thought would be really cute if they named it Diagon Alley. They had like a little sign made and everything. And I think it was mostly the work of my math teacher, Ms. Rhodes, who on our first day of class made us all take the Pottermore test and then made the seating chart accordingly. And that is how I found out.

[Mike Schubert]

I was agent of chaos. Ms. Rhodes.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, seriously.

[Sequoia Simone]

She took it very seriously. I hope she's doing well. There was one of each house sitting at a table. That's what I was gonna ask because.

[Reese Oliver]

Like it's not cool to divide everybody by house. So you're just sitting with your housemates, like you'll work better together.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, that's okay. That's way better. Good. Like she had, she had logic agent of improved system.

[Amanda Montel]

It was literally like Enneagram in a corporate office.

[Sequoia Simone]

Sequoia, what about you?

[Reese Oliver]

So I spent my prime sort of like Harry Potter years as a child and a teenager and a young adult thinking that I a Ravenclaw. And I'm not. I'm a Slytherin. I am 100% a Slytherin. There was like a thing where it was like, oh, the like creative people are in Ravenclaw, you know, and I was like a writer and an actress and I was like, yes, that's where I belong. But, like, my defining characteristic is ambition, if I'm being real about it. So when I got into, like my, like, mid-20s and stuff, I was like, you know what? Let's embrace this. Let's embrace this about ourselves. And I've been a Slytherin ever since. Sense.

[Amanda Montel]

Wow. Okay, so I want to go back to the sort of visceral gut response you had to my commentary about, I.

[Reese Oliver]

Don'T know what you're talking about, this.

[Amanda Montel]

Harry Potter ship being a defining identity formation template. Can you explain more about what motivated that response in you?

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, I mean, I think that Mike really was onto something saying that, like, the format of the book, being like a person who thought they were just a regular person isn't regular. I was always like, yes, you know, I'm actually a witch. And this hairbrush I'm about to pick up, it is a Portkey and it is going to take me to Hogwarts, you know, and I've always wanted, like, fantastical things to happen around me or to me or whatever. And the way that that book allows you to step into it and to really imagine yourself in the space. And then I started writing fan fiction when I was like, 12. So, like, for me, it was a lot about existing in the space. That was not just my regular go to school, take my math test life. And to imagine that it could be something, you know, fantastic.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes. So that is culty in a sort of like fanatical, ritualistic and borderline delusional way.

[Reese Oliver]

But it seems like.

[Amanda Montel]

But it seems like not, you know, like kids are so imaginative and it gives you a place to put that. Did it interfere with your life in any kind of negative way?

[Reese Oliver]

I would say no, because while I was like, kind of a daydreamy, big nerd with dreams and, you know, I was always talking about Harry Potter, there was also like 20 other kids who were like, daydreaming and talking about Harry Potter all the time. So, like, it wasn't as though there wasn't people for me to be around. It was like the thing where you go to school on your first day and you don't know anybody, but then somebody's wearing a Hogwarts T shirt and you're like, oh, my gosh, I also love Harry Potter. So, like, I felt it really enriched me. I made friends. I was writing full stories as like a really young person and, like, engaging critically, which is why Everything that's happening now is so wild, engaging critically with this piece of literature so young. Because I digested it so much and thought about it so much.

[Amanda Montel]

So.

[Reese Oliver]

So like, I don't think it was detrimental to me at the time.

[Mike Schubert]

No. And from the other perspective, like for me not reading them as a kid, like, I was definitely way more like left out. Like I was the weirdo for not having heard them. And there's also like an age group thing. Like I'm 32, so it was like I was prime target audience for this. And I was definitely more of the, like, you haven't read Harry Potter. We're.

[Reese Oliver]

And that's the thing is then it creates this kind of, oh well, everybody's mad that I haven't read Harry Potter, so I'm not going to read it.

[Mike Schubert]

Right.

[Sequoia Simone]

That was my angle on. It was just I, it was almost out of spite where I was like, everybody is telling me to read this thing and everybody is telling me that I will like this thing so much that I just, I refuse to engage with it at all. And that's especially true when it's absolutely everywhere. Like, especially because I'm. I'm 21 and my childhood is like the early 2000s and it's just capitalism everywhere. And there's still Harry Potter stuff everywhere. And I have not known a time where Harry Potter was not everywhere.

[Amanda Montel]

No. It can get a little annoying. Like I find that some cults tell on themselves so much and they're so intimidating for that reason because you just don't want to fucking get into it with the followers that a person might avoid it. Like I was once like a casual Taylor Swift fan, but I am not anymore because I just don't want to get into it, you know, like, geez, it's too much.

[Mike Schubert]

Yeah. I think the good thing that I have found with the Harry Potter fandom, at least once I started to get into it, is that I came into my podcast trying to dunk on Harry Potter and then I started to love the series and it was, was fantastic. And I think that level of fan is like very accepting and welcoming to where it doesn't feel like some other fandoms where you're going to dunk on someone for only being like casually into it. Like if someone knows their Hogwarts house and then you go, what's your patronus? And they go, what? And you have to remind them what a patronus is. Like, I wouldn't think that that would elicit a reaction where like a level headed fan is Going to be like, oh, weird.

[Amanda Montel]

Huge green flag.

[Mike Schubert]

They would just like understand the level. I thought, thought like my sister was the most intense Harry Potter fan because she would reread the books every single time the next book was coming out or the movie was coming out. And I thought that was my sister being a super fan. That's just like baseline level average fan. So when I started my podcast, all my guests were like, I would call them experts. And then I learned they are not experts because I was like, oh, these are all people who've read the books more than once. That's kind of weird, right? And then everyone's like, they've only read it three times. No. So the intensity is for sure there. But I don't think that the pushing and shunning people away because they aren't up to your game is. And then as I made my way more in through the fandom, then I was able to have more of those conversations.

[Amanda Montel]

That's fascinating. And I want to talk more about what you think has tempered that fanaticism and not made it as toxic as maybe some other fandoms. But yeah, first, Rhys, could you serve us with a little bit more 411 about who is benefiting from this cult's existence for better and for worse.

[Sequoia Simone]

We began to talk a little bit about all of the endless, like butterbeer flavored capitalism opportunities that Harry Potter has given the world the most like, immersive and large extent of which is probably the Wizarding World of Harry Potter at Universal Studios. I have been and it is fun. I do like it. Yeah. But yeah, Harry Potter stuff is absolutely everywhere. Like I was saying, if you search for Harry Potter on Etsy, it literally wouldn't even show me a number of how many results exist. Another extent of Harry Potter capitalism is the conventions which Sequoia you've been touching on a little bit about. There are enough conventions that there is an article on Mugglenet which will guide you through all of the most popular options. If you need help deciding which convention is right for you, can you tell us a little bit about what it's like to attend these conventions and like the cultiest things that you have witnessed.

[Reese Oliver]

At one of them.

[Mike Schubert]

We can talk a lot about these because Sequoia's done the full thing. Like she's done fan presenter to like featured gift guest at convention.

[Reese Oliver]

I have achieved my dreams. I'm just gonna say I have achieved my dreams.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh my God, this Slytherin paid off.

[Reese Oliver]

It truly did.

[Sequoia Simone]

The full fangirl life cycle.

[Reese Oliver]

It's been beautiful, wonderful and glorious. No, I can sort of start like a little bit later back in the day and then like, hand it over to you, Mike. But, you know, the early fan conventions were at their beginnings when you were like, one of the very first ones was Ascatraz in San Francisco. There were a couple of main companies that were running them and they sort of traded all off years so there would be one every year. And those were so fun. And they got bigger after the books were done and they got bigger after the movies were done, which I think is really wild to think about.

[Sequoia Simone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Because people wanted to consume more. They want to be in the Harry Potter space and like talking about it and everything and like, oh, we don't have any books, we don't have any more movies. Let's go to the convention.

[Sequoia Simone]

We have to sustain the shared delusion.

[Reese Oliver]

Exactly. And it's, oh, it's so beautiful. And there were some really wonderful years there. But there would be things like I was in a musical at a Harry Potter convention once that was based on the last 200 pages of deathly Hallows. I played Electo Caro. It's really fun to play a villain. So there's just like all of these wonderful like fan created things happening everywhere where you're like, yeah, the musicals that I saw at Harry Potter conventions are like better than the play that is like running on Broadway currently, you know, so it's just like fun to be in those spaces where everything's like being made by fans.

[Amanda Montel]

Super grassroots.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Schubert]

People who care about that, they're really fun. I fully agree with Sequoia saying that they got bigger post the books. What I always appreciate about those conventions is that everyone in attendance just felt like they were their truest, purest self. Whether people were going super intense into costumes and cosplay or if they were just wearing like the robe you get from the Wizarding world or the tie, you could be as intense with that kind of stuff or as not as intense. And it didn't matter. It wasn't one of the things like you have to wear a costume, but if you want to, you can. And you can go all out if you want to. And then because of the age of the demographic and the years that I was going to these conventions, you have like parents there bringing their kids. You have like 8 to 10 year olds contributing in panels where me and other experts are leading it. And then an 8 year old will like get on the Q and A mic afterwards and be like, oh, actually you Misspoke, like, blah, blah, blah. It's like, oh, you're eight and you've thought about this way more intensely. It's just a beautiful, positive space. Space. And I always loved and still love going to those conventions because you can go to, like, the big stage things where it's like, watch the people who were in the movies do an interview or, like, watch the musical people from starkid do a production of a Harry Potter musical or whatever. But then also you can go into, like, a tiny, small breakout room where it's just like portraits in Harry Potter. How do we think they work? And it's just a back and forth with the crowd. I was like, asking all the people, like, J.K. rowling has nothing to do with this. And they're like, no. Warner Brothers has, like, actively sued Leaky Khan year after year after year. Like, wow, that shows you. I think the good that the fandom can do is, like, they can put so much awesome work into something cool. And that just shows you, like, when this community is channeled for good, they can make a big opening, welcoming space. Which makes what J.K. rowling did wild. Because look at how much good these people do when they read the books about acceptance being accepting. And then she goes, what if actually I made my whole brand not being accepting? Bizarre.

[Sequoia Simone]

Wow, it sounds like such, like a wholesome, nice, loving space space. Maybe I've just been working at sounds like a cult for too long. But I'm a little suspicious. Like, any theories as to why it is able to be such a positive space despite its, like, size? And usually, usually when things this big have existed for this long, they tend to go sour at some point. But it doesn't really seem like there's a ton of that here. Are there any, like, toxic pockets with hierarchies or weird us them dynamics? And like, if so, where there's definitely toxicity.

[Mike Schubert]

I will say, to answer the first question of, like, why I think it's welcoming, I think it's just because, like, at their core, the books are about being accepting of other people.

[Reese Oliver]

Absolutely.

[Mike Schubert]

And then as far as the toxicity, like, there's definitely toxicity and it takes shape in different form. And now it's in, like, a weird space because of the JK stuff. So, like, I wouldn't know as much about the toxicity of, like, the pro JK versus the anti JK stuff. But before that all happened, I would get a little bit of super intense. Well, actually emails, like, if I got something wrong on the podcast, where people would be like, so intense. I Think you can get into some toxicity with like, feelings about certain characters like Snape or James Potter. Like, there's very divisive characters that I think can get into some like really intense conversations and stuff. And that could be the level of toxicity. But I think like now, like in its current state, the toxicity is just like people who recognize what J.K. rowling is doing is transphobic and she's spreading these like awful, harmful, hate speech filled messages. And then people who are. And this is where I think, like, the only, like culty aspect is really there. People who are just like, J.K. rowling can do no wrong. This is actually feminism and it's good feminism. And there are people who just like can't recognize that what she's doing is horrible. Whether they agree with it because they're also bigoted or if they just have way too rose tinted of glasses that they're like, no, no, no. JK's good and she can do no wrong.

[Reese Oliver]

I do think one of the things that makes it such an accepting space is because there are a lot of people from marginalized communities who found that they could see in these books, who wrote fan fiction and other things so that they could write themselves into this space. So the like convention going fandom that we're talking about is like very queer. Like a really very queer space. And like, there's just a lot of different types of people there. I think the only toxicity that I have experienced has been when people are just like very passionately tied to the canon of the story. Like Mike was saying about, like the long emails and stuff like that. And then right now, you know, there's obviously people who are like, I don't care what J.K. rowling says. I'm still going to exist in the space in the exact same way I existed in the space before. When you're like, we don't all agree about exactly how to go about existing in the space, but a lot of people seem to agree that like, we're treating the space differently, we are entering the space differently.

[Mike Schubert]

Right? Everyone has a different approach. My approach once J.K. rowling made it very clear was, was that I didn't want to do anything that like, gave her money or influence, even though that she's got infinite money and infinite influence. I just didn't want to contribute. So, like, I stopped covering anything that was officially Harry Potter branded on my podcast. And if I ever did, like, I think I was in the middle of one of the movies. I, like, donated all the proceeds to a trans charity. Like the Trevor Project or Marsha P. Johnson. And then I also was trying to, like, speak up against it on those episodes. Episodes. But I got to a point where I didn't want to buy anything officially Harry Potter branded, because then that meant she would get a cut of it, potentially, if you buy, like, Harry Potter vans or whatever. And then I didn't want to cover any of the new stuff coming out, like the third Fantastic Beast movie or that new video game. Like, didn't want to cover any of that stuff, because, again, if that does well, then maybe more companies are willing to work with J.K. rowling, and then she can keep doing stuff. But I think one thing that I still firmly believe is, like, just because she's terrible, terrible, it doesn't mean that you have to completely separate yourself from the fandom. If you have wonderful memories from reading the books or talking about them with your friends. These conventions that we're going to, friends that I've made because of Harry Potter podcasts or conventions or whatever, like, you don't have to flush all that down the toilet, especially because you look at, like, the fandom doing things like these conventions, which she has no say in. Wizard Rock, all these other things. Clearly the fandom doesn't need her.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes. So just to back up really quick for some exposition, because this is not a Harry Potter podcast, so I imagine there are people tuning in who somehow missed the hullabaloo surrounding J.K. rowling and her dethronement as the leader of this cult, so to speak. Rhys, could you provide a little bit of explanation and then we can talk about it more?

[Sequoia Simone]

Yeah, I don't want to bring too much attention to specific things that she said because there has been a lot of abhorrent things that she said since 2018, which was the beginning of her public life as scum. In 2018, she liked to tweet, calling trans women men in dresses, and ever since then, in her irrelevance has become a pundit for hatred, which really sucks, because queerbaiting throughout the story and underrepresentation of marginalized communities have, like, long been an obstacle in the fandom that the fans, as you guys have spoken about, have been really resilient in working around and in coming together in spite of and. And building something. So obviously that was really disappointing, especially considering the millions of dollars J.K. rowling has undoubtedly made from the support of trans people. So now there is this chasm between the J.K. truthers, which, luckily, I don't see many of them around at Least I don't know if you guys see.

[Mike Schubert]

You'Ll see them on the Internet because, like, she'll tweet just this garbage and then it'll still get like 85,000 likes. So, like, they're clearly out there. And people would hop up all of my records when I would post any sort of anti JK stuff, especially when I was like, actively doing the podcast. And they would be like, well, if you don't like her, then you should, like, stop making it your career. It's like, no, no, no, she's the one who sucks. I don't have to lose my job. But yeah, I think what Sequoyah was saying, and Reese, what you're saying is so true about people from marginalized communities seeing themselves and becoming fully aware of their identities through these books. And that's what makes it extra crushing. There's someone that Sequoia and I both know, Jackson Bird, who's a wonderful creator, who wrote a book called Sweet Distorted, which was kind of inspired by how the Harry Potter books helped them recognize that they wanted to transition and become a man and made this whole book and everything. And then J.K. rowling did her trash and it's like, okay, person who inspired me to recognize I'm trans. Cool. Very cool. And Jackson is an absolute perfect person to talk to about that specific thing. I had Jackson on Pottery List to break it down, where I was just like, please, can you, from your perspective, explain, explain why this is so terrible. Of all the people to do this, like, the person who wrote the books about you shouldn't persecute people for no good reason. Persecuting people for no good reason just makes it suck extra hard.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, the book about, like, get that little boy out of the closet.

[Sequoia Simone]

Seriously, you guys, on the other hand, what's happening?

[Amanda Montel]

So I want to follow up and ask. It's such a unique situation to have a cult fandom with such a clear leader who then betrays the tenants of the cult and then the followers don't accept it. Like, normally when a cult leader betrays their own tenants, enough followers will just heed their own loyalty and their own sunk costs to be like, okay, whatever this person says goes, that did not happen here. And I think it just goes to show the power of what the followers and the believers have done with this material and how that has sort of overpowered any role that J.K. rowling has served this fandom and this franchise. But analyzing Harry Potter through the lens of cultish, you know, not every modern day cult, but a Lot of them do have something resembling a leader or multiple leaders. In the wake of J.K. rowling's, I.

[Sequoia Simone]

Don'T even know, fall from grace.

[Amanda Montel]

Fall. Yeah, like shunning. Literally, like, how to describe what happened in the wake of that? Who do you think, if anyone has stepped in to fill a cult leader role? Is it convention organizers? Is it moderators of fan fiction forums? Like, who's the glue keeping the fandom together?

[Mike Schubert]

I would credit the community as a whole. To me, it doesn't seem like there is necessarily like, oh, this person is the one we all follow. I think especially because Harry Potter as a fandom has so many different niches. There's huge Harry Potter YouTubers, podcasters, musicians, fan fiction writers, the convention folks, lots of other other people. And this. This kind of led into why I decided to do what I did. Not because I'm trying to, like, act like I'm this great person and everyone needs to follow me. But it was like I recognized that I was hosting the most popular podcast at the time, and I owed it to people because there were genuinely a lot of people who were like, I don't get what she's saying. Like, everyone's saying it's bad, but I don't get why it's bad. So I personally tried to, like, learn as much as I could so that I could speak for it to be like, here's what I learned from reading stuff from trans folks, watching YouTube videos from trans folks, and here's what I've learned. Let me try to pass it along. So I think there were just a lot of different people in the community that, like, stepped up to the plate. And you had huge things like the leaky Cauldron website, Muggle Net. You had big YouTubers, wizard rock. I felt like most of those people use their platform to try to explain, like, why it was bad and say, like, we're pushing her to the side and we're going to still have our own safe space. So to me, it kind of just felt like a big team effort as opposed to, like, there's one person sort of leading the charge.

[Amanda Montel]

Proper commune energy.

[Reese Oliver]

Truly, though, actually. And I think that we all love that. Actually, I think all of the people would love to hear that because it's also just, like, so big. We don't have the Pope or whatever, you know, like, we're just a bunch of people interacting with a fandom in a bunch of very different ways. So I think for like, every individual person, there's probably someone that they look up to in the fandom, for whatever reason. But that's going to be different for so many different people.

[Mike Schubert]

People. And one thing I can't believe I haven't brought this up, but, like, the three main kids from the movie all called her out on it. Daniel Radcliffe repeatedly. Emma Watson repeatedly. Rert Gray. Like, they are all out there. Very profound. Whether it was social media statements or interviews, they all very eloquently stated why it was disappointing, what she was doing and all that kind of stuff. And like, that's huge. Because as much as an individual Harry Potter indie creator is going to be like, obviously those people have like a million jillion times more of the influence and knowledge and everything. So the fact that those three and a bunch of other. The actors and people involved in the movies in different ways, like all those huge mega celebrities stepped up to the plate to also call it out, like, that was huge too. And I think that can go a lot farther for some of the more casual fans because not everyone's going to have someone like a Sequoia or me or a Jackson bird to say, like, here's why it's bad. Someone might just be like, what's going on with the JK thing? And then Daniel Radcliffe has an interview where he's like, this is bad. And here's why Emma Watson says it. That's going to get your more casual fan to recognize, like, oh, wow, the guy who played Harry Potter. He didn't. And then of course, you'll get the people who are like, he should be grateful and, you know, I kind of stuff. But that was huge. Huge that they stepped up.

[Amanda Montel]

Yes. It would be like if Jesus was suddenly like, you know what? Actually steal from the poor. Just. Just the poor suck. I hate the poor. And then like, some of the saints.

[Mike Schubert]

Came forward and Peter, come on from the Rock, let me tell you.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, yeah, like fucking Peter writes a letter to the Trevor project is like, nah, no, I'm here for you.

[Sequoia Simone]

Sequoia. You were talking a little bit about how people are turning to different leaders in this wake of a JKless era. So one of these kind of sub cults or subgroups that exist that you are very well versed in is the world of Harry Potter fanfiction. Now, the world of fanfiction in general is a vast and ugly one. Which volume? One more person than I would like to admit.

[Mike Schubert]

Quickly.

[Sequoia Simone]

No, again, scandal.

[Reese Oliver]

Scandal.

[Sequoia Simone]

I say that from well within it. I would like to know. But Harry Potter fanfiction specifically is an elusive web that I stay away from solely because I find it so intimidating. Can you expand a bit on your relationship with the Harry Potter fanfic world and kind of give a description of how that world specifically could be cult like?

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I have been writing fan fiction, like I said, since I was 12. And then we started doing this podcast to, you know, really recapture that portion of our youth being a part of this fanfiction space. And it's not smaller than it was. That's a space that just continues to grow despite any adversity. You know, I think something that is fundamentally misunderstood about fanfiction in general, but a lot about the Harry Potter space is that people either think that it's really silly or it's like all smut. And while like very silly things exist and very spicy things exist, for sure, there is just like people who are exploring new stories in this space with new or even existing characters and they are building those worlds out to several novel length stories. There are fan fiction writers that are way more prolific than like published authority authors. And sometimes those things get pulled for publish or things like that, you know. But the fanfiction space is really full of these people who are like dedicated readers to the authors that they love who are creating these stories that are seemingly never ending a lot of the time.

[Amanda Montel]

And this is free labor.

[Reese Oliver]

Yes.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, cult.

[Sequoia Simone]

Literally. My best friend's favorite fanfic author is a full time lawyer. These people are doing it like solely for the love of the game.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay, first of all, it's not very Slytherin to write a whole ass book and get no glory.

[Reese Oliver]

I didn't say I wrote a whole ass book.

[Sequoia Simone]

I would argue there's glory. There's.

[Amanda Montel]

There's glory. It's right. Glory and money are different.

[Sequoia Simone]

Very true. And with that I. I think it is time. Can you enlighten us about the Snape wives?

[Reese Oliver]

I would love to do that. At long last, the Snape wives are like an actual sort of cult that grew sort of inside the Harry Potter fandom. And I don't know a Snape wife. I'll put that out there first. I've never met a Snape wife. I have not interrogated a Snape wife. This is all sort of information that we all have secondhand. But the Snape wives are a group of people who feel that they are spiritually bonded to Severus Snape, who is not a fictional character, but a sort of an immortal being that is able to inhabit their own bodies. And they are all married to him. And they do believe that the Harry Potter books were written because Snape inhabited J.K. rowling and had her write those books.

[Amanda Montel]

Wait, they really believe this?

[Reese Oliver]

Yes, maybe.

[Sequoia Simone]

I'll say.

[Reese Oliver]

Seemingly.

[Amanda Montel]

I guess it's really, really hard to confirm anyone's true beliefs, Right?

[Sequoia Simone]

It's so true.

[Amanda Montel]

Wow. And we're speculating. When I hear this. I think these people are probably like ex Christians who left their home church and needed somewhere to put their religious muscle memory. Because, you know, a lot of the members of groups that we now know as notorious cults like Heaven's Gate and Nexium or Scientology or a lot of just like the New age cults of the seventies were ex Christians who became spiritual seekers and found the new age and there was like a direct pipeline in that regard. This has so much in common with Jesus that I'm like, are they affiliating with this for the same reason why people joined Heaven's Gate, I wonder?

[Reese Oliver]

I think that's a question for yourself. I feel like you two are more qualified.

[Sequoia Simone]

I mean, I feel like at a certain point, especially now, and you were talking about this earlier, Mike, how it is so far removed now from when this whole thing began and it is still kicking. A lot of it just has to be the fun of being in a coal, Right? The fun of participating in it.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. To me, I genuinely haven't read a Harry Potter book in 15 years, three days. It has been years and years and years and years and years since I've read a Harry Potter book. But like, I love the fandom, the community. Like if it wasn't for them, then, you know, we wouldn't be around making these things and consuming all of the art that is being made around this space. Just wouldn't. Yeah, it wouldn't be fun.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay. I feel like we have explored so many of the bounds of this conversation. It might be time to play a little game.

[Mike Schubert]

Let's do it.

[Sequoia Simone]

It's time to play a game. It is actually the most straightforward game I think you will ever play. We are going to give you some cult leader names and you are going to sort them into a Hogwarts.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, legit.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay, okay. But these cult leaders we're not talking about like Keith Ranieri and Jim Jones. These are sounds like a cult. Cult leaders. Okay.

[Sequoia Simone]

Okay.

[Mike Schubert]

Better chance that I know who they are.

[Amanda Montel]

You'll know who they are, I promise.

[Sequoia Simone]

Number one, Dolly Parton.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh.

[Amanda Montel]

Ooh. Start her.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, Dolly. Feels like a Gryffindor to me.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, okay. I was gonna. That's a good one. Either Gryffindor. Or Huffle.

[Amanda Montel]

I'm kind of getting Gryffindor because, like, everything she's done for the vaccine.

[Sequoia Simone]

Well, she's really concerned with her appearances, like, the gloves. The gloves of skin that she wears. So I feel like that leans Gryffindor, too.

[Mike Schubert]

The performing, being in front of the stage, I guess.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. The bravery of being on a. Performing on a stage.

[Mike Schubert]

I think that's right. I think she's got a little bit of Hufflepuff tendency just in that, like, if someone said they didn't like Dolly Parton, I would be very concerned. She's just, like, supremely likable.

[Amanda Montel]

Totally.

[Mike Schubert]

And I think it's all about, like, getting along. So. Yeah, I think Gryffindor with a slight Hufflepuff potential in there.

[Sequoia Simone]

Hufflepuff Rising.

[Mike Schubert]

Hufflepuffing. Yeah. There we are.

[Sequoia Simone]

There we are.

[Amanda Montel]

Amazing. Okay. Do you think there's, like, an overrepresentation.

[Mike Schubert]

Of Gryffindor's 100% because they're the main characters in the book and this is the fault of the text. But, like, they write so much about Gryffindor and Gryffindor characters and, like, they're kind of from Harry's perspective, so I get it.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah, totally. Okay. This second cult leader, I hope you know, who is this? This is Abby Lee Miller.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, of course I don't.

[Amanda Montel]

Are such different responses on the dance floor.

[Reese Oliver]

You're not familiar with the genesis of Jojo Siwa, Mike.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, I know Jojo Siwa. How does Abby Lee Miller fit into this? Is she her mom?

[Amanda Montel]

That's a really good question.

[Reese Oliver]

She's her dear Julia.

[Sequoia Simone]

She's her cult leader.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, okay. Okay, okay.

[Reese Oliver]

She's her dance mom.

[Mike Schubert]

Okay.

[Sequoia Simone]

Okay.

[Amanda Montel]

Sequoia, what do you think?

[Reese Oliver]

I believe Miller is a Slytherin.

[Mike Schubert]

Okay.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah.

[Mike Schubert]

Feels correct.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah.

[Mike Schubert]

Period.

[Sequoia Simone]

End of story.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah.

[Sequoia Simone]

Would bite you.

[Reese Oliver]

That's it.

[Sequoia Simone]

Dead. Next up. I kind of maybe for your sake, hope you don't know who this is.

[Amanda Montel]

Yeah.

[Sequoia Simone]

Gary Vee.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, unfortunately I do.

[Reese Oliver]

I don't.

[Mike Schubert]

Ah, well, as the representative straight white male in the room.

[Amanda Montel]

Exactly.

[Mike Schubert]

God, I would say so. It's funny because there's a character in Harry Potter, Gilderoy Lockhart. He's basically like a storytelling snake oil salesman of, like, it's all bs. So I kind of want to say he's like an evil Ravenclaw, because Ravenclaw holding is that they're smart. Gary Vee like, sounds like what he's saying is smart, but if you, like, have enough of a brain, you know that he's just loud and fun. So, yeah, I think he's like very specifically a Gilderoy Lockhart Ravenclaw.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Schubert]

Sequoia is one of those like self help, like the business version, like a Jordan Peterson ish type. But he's all like businessy and not like Andrew Tate Machoey.

[Amanda Montel]

He's like a marketing guru.

[Mike Schubert]

Yeah.

[Sequoia Simone]

He's so annoying.

[Mike Schubert]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, my God. This is why diversity is important. So we can play this game. And Abby Lee Miller and Gary Vee can both be characters of Pistachio.

[Sequoia Simone]

And then we meet back at the middle with Taylor Swift.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, nice. I would think Gryffindor as well, for similar Dolly Parton reasons.

[Reese Oliver]

This feels very difficult because, yes, he's a performer. So she's got the Gryffindor.

[Sequoia Simone]

How?

[Reese Oliver]

However, she has Hufflepuff energy, but also she is like one of the most prolific songwriters. She releases an album within 12 years.

[Mike Schubert]

She also has the Reputation era, which was all snake themed.

[Sequoia Simone]

It's all snake imagery. Yeah, I was gonna say. Oh, my God.

[Reese Oliver]

Are her different eras in different houses?

[Mike Schubert]

That's a good answer.

[Sequoia Simone]

She's different eras in different houses. I think she just transcends them.

[Amanda Montel]

Well, she's a chameleon. She's a chameleon, exactly.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. I do. I do think her different eras are different houses for sure.

[Sequoia Simone]

Our next culty cult leader, Elon Musk. Sort that man.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, he wants to be a Ravenclaw so bad and he's just not.

[Mike Schubert]

He's just a Slytherin. He's. He's just a bully Slytherin. But yeah, he wants to be either a Ravenclaw or a Gryffindor and he's neither.

[Amanda Montel]

Okay, this one is another. This is niche. Except. No, it's not. I don't know. The Internet is so large. But, well, there's background.

[Sequoia Simone]

Anyway, go. I'll explain after.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, wow. Okay, so the last person to sort is Nara Smith.

[Reese Oliver]

Why do I know that name?

[Sequoia Simone]

You know who Nara Smith is? Because her husband, Lucky Blue Smith used to make Draco Malfoy Tiktoks, but he's Mormon and homophobic, so he got ousted.

[Mike Schubert]

Oh, Nara. She was the one that was like, I'm going to make mozzarella cheese, but first I'm going to raise a cow from birth. Okay. Yay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Schubert]

I would say. Oh, can I actually go little zag? Can she be in Beaux Baton? The like very like prim and proper fancy French school where Fleur de la Cour is from. They just feel, at least in their movie representation, they have the fancy dresses and the nice hats and the flowery, like, ah. And like they have this villa personality. Or at least some of them are like part Vela, which like, makes people fall under their spell and stuff. So I'm gonna go with that where it's just all of the, like, oh.

[Amanda Montel]

Mike, you're playing this game.

[Mike Schubert]

Very competitive.

[Amanda Montel]

Thank you for that, Zag. There's no, there's no winning in this game, but you won anyway. Wow. Incredible. Thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Thank you for playing our game. This was illuminating and, like, soothing. I want to say, say if folks can keep up with each of you and your work and your, you know, cult, dare I say, where can they do that?

[Reese Oliver]

You can find me. I am Sequoia Simone. On all the social medias. You can find my podcast fanatical fics and where to find them, wherever podcasts can be found. I also have another show that's not making new episodes anymore, but it's called But Make It Scary and there's a good back catalog of that. If you like romcoms and or horror movies, that one's a lot of fun. And then. Yeah, yeah, Mike.

[Mike Schubert]

So if you want to listen to the Harry Potter podcast that I made, it's called Pottery List, you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Then the Percy Jackson one that kind of spiritually succeeded, that is called the newest Olympian. Also, wherever you get your podcasts, I have some other shows as well and you can check out my website, which is just Shubs S C H U B E S for all that kind of stuff. And then if you search Mike Shubert, I'll be on Instagram and Blue sky and Twitter and all that. But if you really like Sequoia and I together, we are currently working on a new podcast podcast. You can get all sorts of updates about it at patreon.com professionaltalkers since the two of us are full time professional podcaster people, we are making a podcast about how to navigate through awkward conversations. Since we have had so many and they've been on the Internet publicly for everyone to listen to and ridicule, we've gone through the gauntlet of having every type of awkward conversation and now we're here to help you go through low stakes, low yikes ones like small talk at a party to big yikes ones like how do I break up with someone? Or how do I ask for a promotion? So that's called professional Talkers.

[Amanda Montel]

Oh, what a great idea. Thank you so much. Okay, Rhys, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of Harry Potter falls into in a post?

[Sequoia Simone]

Joanne Landscape? I think I'm gonna call it a Live youe Life. It seems like the people there are having a really good time and I can't fault them for it.

[Amanda Montel]

You know, I made the argument in Cultish that the way that people who are into, like the kink community have been described as sexual nerds, people who are to sort of fringy spiritual practices that you might even sometimes call a cult are kind of spiritual nerds. These are just nerds. Harry Potter fans are simply nerds. And it's sweet. And like, I imagine that there are little pockets of toxicity going on that our guests today aren't privy to. But the fact that they're so involved with this world and they, by their own admission, like, enjoy roasting the franchise, they are not against doing that. They were open to sharing fucked up shit and they're kind of just like, wasn't Annie as the fandom exists today, you know what I mean?

[Sequoia Simone]

It almost feels like it's too large and expansive at this point now it's too fractured to do serious harm as one cult like presence, I think.

[Amanda Montel]

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So I think the vibes are adorable, but adorable vibes alone are not enough to prevent something from becoming a destructive cult. But yes, the fact that it is fragmented at this point is kind of a good thing. So live your life.

[Sequoia Simone]

Live your life.

[Amanda Montel]

Live your life. Potterheads.

[Sequoia Simone]

Damn. Comment. Your Harry Potter house.

[Amanda Montel]

Come at your Harry Potter house. Watch. Somehow the most toxic Harry Potter fans are gonna find this podcast.

[Sequoia Simone]

And you know what?

[Amanda Montel]

Welcome, welcome. Get on in here. Well, that is our show.

[Sequoia Simone]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Amanda Montel]

Stick around for a new cult next week. And in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult Cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeaculture.