The Cult of Joe Rogan

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sounds Like A Cult – "The Cult of Joe Rogan"

Date: February 17, 2026
Hosts: Amanda Montell, Chelsea Charles, Reese Oliver
Special Guest: Akilah Hughes

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Overview

In this episode, the Sounds Like A Cult team tackles the intensely popular and polarizing world of The Joe Rogan Experience, questioning whether Rogan and his fervent fandom represent a modern cult. Through their signature humorous and critical analysis, they examine Rogan’s meteoric rise, his podcast’s influence on culture and politics, his tendency toward platforming misinformation, and the deeply loyal, often defensive, community orbiting his brand. Special guest Akilah Hughes joins for an incisive interview, sharing sharp takes on Rogan’s cult-like appeal, the psychology of his fandom, and the social consequences of his reach.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Joe Rogan’s “Cult” Status

• Cult Leader Persona

  • The hosts open by drawing parallels between Rogan’s fandom and typical cults, emphasizing the single powerful personality at the center, blind devotion, and the “defend at all costs” mentality.
  • Akilah Hughes [01:56]: “If you’re isolated … that’s your best friend. And so you want to believe that your best friend knows what he’s talking about. ... When you look at cults historically in the United States, it is all about one personality and defending it at all costs.”

• Spectrum of Cultishness

  • Not all cults are destructive—some are silly, some are sinister. Joe Rogan’s fandom, the hosts argue, sits closer to nefarious due to his leveraging anxieties for profit and his tendency to spread misinformation.
  • “Some subcultures have … exploited [anxieties] for their own gain, spreading misinformation like biblical gospel … This week’s topic, the Cult of Joe Rogan.” (Amanda Montell, 03:22)

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2. Joe Rogan: Rise, Reputation & Influence

• Timeline & Transformation

  • Rogan’s career: from "Fear Factor" host to podcaster with $200 million Spotify deal and millions of listeners.
  • “Only in America can someone go from giddily encouraging reality show contestants to ingest bull testicles … to influencing American politics in a truly material way.” (Amanda Montell, 07:03)

• Cult Branding: Metonymy & Media

  • Rogan’s name is synonymous with his ideology, blurring his media platform with a personal brand akin to traditional cult leaders.
  • “We forget that the People’s Temple was called the People’s Temple … It’s just referred to as Jonestown. That’s how you know Joe Rogan has reached cult leader status.” (Amanda Montell, 08:17)

• The ‘Everyman’ Manipulator

  • Rogan’s “neutrality” is described as a spin tactic, allowing him to platform controversial guests and elude accountability.
  • “He presents himself as this very neutral figure … a gateway for them to platform disgusting people and stand behind their words.” (Reese Oliver, 17:20)

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3. Structurelessness, Misinformation, and Influence

• Parasocial Dynamics

  • Rogan’s long, meandering episodes foster deep parasocial relationships—especially among isolated listeners.
  • “If you’re an Uber driver and you’re alone all day … that’s your best friend. … And those people … you can’t talk like that about my best friend.” (Akilah Hughes, 39:09 + 41:14)

• Edgelord Influence & Platforming Controversy

  • The podcast thrives on provocative guests, unstructured interviews, and lack of standards.
  • “Cultivating powerful political and cultural influence through edge-lordy, purposefully controversial topics and guests and … very little structure.” (Reese Oliver, 09:32)

• Case Studies: COVID, Politics, AIDS Denial

  • Rogan’s COVID misinformation, flirtation with anti-vax rhetoric, and platforming of AIDS denialists and conspiracy theorists is detailed and critiqued.
  • “Rogan encourages the mistrust of real experts, which can have deadly consequences and is very much in the cult leader playbook.” (Reese Oliver, 24:44)

• Political Chameleon

  • Rogan’s shifting political alignments (endorsing Bernie, later Trump) are attributed to opportunism and a “rage-bait” strategy.
  • “He’s creating this political and intellectual whiplash … this rage bait that keeps people addicted to him.” (Amanda Montell, 20:55)

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4. Fandom, Loyalty & Division

• Us vs. Them & Defensive Fandom

  • Rogan's followers demonstrate classic ‘us versus them’ behaviors, quick to leap to his defense and reluctant to critically assess his faults.
  • “It to them feels like a personal attack. ... If you’ve been listening for 5 or 6 years … it would just be like cutting out a family member.” (Akilah Hughes, 53:09)

• Demographics and Appeal

  • His core audience: predominantly men, often lonely or lacking in community, who find affirmation and camaraderie in Rogan’s unfiltered style.
  • “Men … don’t have a lot of friends, they don’t have community … But they still have things they want to process. … For them, it’s almost like their aspirational guy.” (Akilah Hughes, 44:15)

• Personality as Product

  • Rogan’s fans are drawn by perceived authenticity, the “I’m just asking questions” posture, and the sheer volume of content flooding the media landscape.
  • “There is just a level of flooding the zone with crap and clips ... If you made that much stuff and were so inescapable, you'd probably be really rich and famous, too.” (Akilah Hughes, 45:06)

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5. Social Consequences & Legacy

• Lowered Standards for Role Models

  • The hosts and guest warn about the danger of normalizing a figure who lacks values yet wields influence, especially in an era filled with uncertainty and social isolation.
  • “When we lower the standard of role models, unfortunately, that impacts people. … If this is the most popular podcaster on Earth … that impacts personalities” (Akilah Hughes, 59:22)

• Imitation and Spread

  • Rogan’s model (quantity over quality, endless content, attracting fame by omnipresence) risks degrading media standards industry-wide.
  • “The idea that quantity is somehow its own form of quality is, like, pervasive.” (Akilah Hughes, 61:09)

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6. Akilah Hughes Interview Highlights

• Notable Quotes & Moments

  • “Joe Rogan has no bitches. Joe Rogan has long nipples. Joe Rogan has nothing to say.” (Akilah Hughes, 62:14)
  • “If you're listening to some dude four hours a day and then you're mad at women, the call's coming from inside the house, my guy.” (Akilah Hughes, 62:49)
  • On target audience: “Divorced dads are at the top of his listeners.” (Akilah Hughes, 44:07)

• Advice for Listeners

  • “Diversify it. Give it a shot one day. Don’t listen to him. Put on a woman. Just listen to music. Try something else.” (Akilah Hughes, 62:52)

• Most Dangerous Effect

  • “The most dangerous effect is … people are investing their time in something that is not enriching. … He exudes a lot of things that are wrong with society—money at all costs, no virtues.” (Akilah Hughes, 59:22 + 60:02)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:56 | Akilah introduces the “fandom as cult” thesis | | 06:03–09:19 | Hosts break down Rogan's career trajectory and cult branding | | 10:11–11:44 | Parasocial dynamics and Rogan's intimate listener influence | | 14:40 | The cultish design of the Joe Rogan Experience logo | | 17:54–18:08 | Analysis: Rogan’s hypocrisy & populism as cult features | | 20:55 | Rogan's political flip-flopping and its impact | | 23:09–24:52 | COVID & other conspiracies: disinformation’s spread | | 26:15 | Spotify backlash and public response | | 29:20–31:42 | Bigotry, harmful rhetoric, and hypocrisy | | 37:01–64:19 | Akilah Hughes Interview | | 72:25 | Cult ranking: “Watch your back” category |

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Standout Quotes (Speaker & Timestamp)

• On cult devotion:
  “When you look at cults historically … it is all about one personality and defending it at all costs and believing … they have some answer.”
  – Akilah Hughes [01:56]

• On Rogan’s podcast:
  “The Joe Rogan Experience is known for cultivating powerful political and cultural influence through like edge-lordy, purposefully controversial topics and guests … very little structure.”
  – Reese Oliver [09:32]

• On the nature of his fandom:
  “You can’t really be a casual listener of Joe Rogan. … You’re either a person who was indoctrinated … or you’re just like a person who, like, hears it one time, like me. And you're like, wow, this guy’s wrong about a lot of stuff.”
  – Akilah Hughes [40:00]

• On Rogan’s absence of real beliefs:
  “I don't think people follow Joe Rogan because of what he believes … He goes where the money goes.”
  – Akilah Hughes [46:44]

• On accountability:
  “If you have no center, it’s like, you can't be attacked … If no one knows what you believe, but you’re very famous, then you can maintain that level of fame.”
  – Akilah Hughes [46:44]

• Advice to Rogan fans:
  “If you listen to a single woman every day and, like, one who’s looking out for you … just diversify it. … Put on a woman. Just listen to music. Try something else.”
  – Akilah Hughes [62:14, 62:52]

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Cult Ranking & Takeaways

• The Cult of Joe Rogan is officially placed in the “Watch Your Back” category—not the most dangerous, but certainly one with concerning cultish traits capable of causing personal and social harm.
  – “You gotta watch your back if you’re gonna listen to this guy … You might end up losing your friends and family because you followed Joe Rogan off a cliff.” (Akilah Hughes, 72:39)

• If you only remember one thing:
  “Joe Rogan gets zero bitches and has long nipples.” (Chelsea Charles, 64:07)

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Tone, Style & Final Thoughts

The episode is lively, irreverent, and incisively critical. The hosts mix pop culture snark with sociological rigor, balancing mockery and genuine concern over the impact of Rogan’s platform. Akilah Hughes’ interview is equal parts comedic and thoughtful, full of memorable bon mots and practical advice for those questioning their allegiance to Rogan.

Bottom line: Rogan’s fandom exhibits many classic traits of a modern cult—charismatic leadership, parasocial attachment, defensiveness, and an “us vs. them” mentality—magnified by today’s media landscape. The hosts advocate critical thinking, media diversity, and, above all, a willingness to step back and question why anyone needs a three-hour, unedited bro-down in their ears every day.

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[Summary covers all vital topics, themes, and insights as discussed on the episode. Listeners new to the podcast will find it informative, entertaining, and true to the original spirited analysis.]

Transcript

[Amanda Montell]

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[Akilah Hughes]

The Cult, like Nature of Joe Rogan and his fans, really comes down to like fandom. So like, if you're isolated, say you're an Uber driver and you're alone all day, that's your best friend. And so you want to believe that your best friend knows what he's talking about. He has your best interest at heart. And so I think when you look at cults historically in the United States, it is all about one personality and defending it at all costs and believing beyond belief that, like, they have some answer that makes them the correct person to deliver a message. And his fans really, unfortunately believe that.

[Amanda Montell]

This is Sounds like a Cult, A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

[Reese Oliver]

I'm Reese Oliver. Sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar.

[Chelsea Charles]

And I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology.

[Amanda Montell]

Every week on the show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture, from Etsy witches to Ikea. To try and answer the big question.

[Reese Oliver]

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

[Chelsea Charles]

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Is it a live your life, watch your back, or a get the fuck out?

[Amanda Montell]

This is the question. Because cultish behavior falls on a spectrum. And not all cults are built the same. You got your duolingo streakers and your Labubu collectors, and as we've determined, those are more or less relatively harmless groups to follow. But other subcultures have taken the anxieties of our time and exploited them for their own gain, spreading misinformation like biblical gospel through the power of social media like Anti Vaxxers Incels. And this week's topic, the Cult of Joe Rogan.

[Akilah Hughes]

Did you see that guy accidentally hit that moose with his car?

[Reese Oliver]

No. Holy shit, Jamie, we're finally here. We've reached it. We've reached whatever, if layer of hell. This fanatical male dominated flock of podcast devotees saw its beginnings in the early 2000s, but in the last few years has grown faster than the list of COVID variants they might refuse to vaccinate against.

[Chelsea Charles]

So true.

[Reese Oliver]

So we're gonna get into it.

[Amanda Montell]

Where are you both at with respect to today's recording? Mind, body and spirit?

[Chelsea Charles]

I am full of rage today. And honestly, I'm just so happy that this episode is about roasting someone who I just feel like aligns with some of the most disgusting people and viewpoints.

[Amanda Montell]

We're Joan of Arkin.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah, is what I'm hearing. Absolutely.

[Reese Oliver]

I too am a bit gleeful to have an outlet to yap about this, because I feel like a lot of Joe Rogan fans can be kind of brick wallish when you try to argue with them or when you try to suggest why their beloved news source might not be all they're cracked up to be. It can be quite impossible. So I'M excited today to get to speak with reckless abandon.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally.

[Chelsea Charles]

What a gift.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, I avoid talking about Joe Rogan, obviously, in my everyday life, so this feels like a hallowed space to engage with it and then, importantly, to step away. I'll lead with this. The worst men I've ever known have either listened to Joe Rogan or cautioned me against critiquing him on this very podcast, attempting to instill the wrath of his flock in my bones, warning that they would dox our reviews. I'm just like, fucking go for it, dude. Like, I don't care at this point.

[Reese Oliver]

Point.

[Amanda Montell]

We shall not be silenced. So we have a beautiful, scrutinous episode for you today with our own cult analysis and then with the delightful presence of a very special guest. So be sure to stick around. I hope this feels cathartic. I hope this feels illuminating. Send this to the worst man you've ever met, please.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, so it wouldn't be a sounds like a cult analysis if we didn't first give you a little history. Who exactly is the cult leader? That is Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan is an American podcaster, comedian, media personality, and his public.

[Akilah Hughes]

I love your tone. I'm dying.

[Chelsea Charles]

I'm just disgusted.

[Amanda Montell]

Good, because you know what? We can read off his titles and we can do that neutrally. But why would we?

[Chelsea Charles]

No, I'm not neutral. There's actually nothing neutral about me, so.

[Amanda Montell]

That's so true.

[Reese Oliver]

Nor is neutrality a virtue, as some Joe Rogan fans should learn. So.

[Chelsea Charles]

So Joe Rogan's public career began in the 2000s as the host of Fear Factor and UFC color commentator. But his most well known project, the Joe Rogan experience, started in 2009, which I actually didn't realize it was in 2009. I thought it was more recent.

[Amanda Montell]

No, he's been out here bullshitting. Literally bullshitting. Because only in America can someone go from giddily encouraging reality show contestants to ingest bull testicles.

[Chelsea Charles]

I was literally about to say a thousand year old bull testicles.

[Amanda Montell]

A thousand year old bull testicles. Like, blended up rats to, like, influencing American politics in a truly material way.

[Reese Oliver]

Yep.

[Amanda Montell]

What is going on?

[Reese Oliver]

Only in the country where the guy from home alone becomes president could that be true.

[Amanda Montell]

Literally, like, what a circus.

[Reese Oliver]

We're in a circus parts of the country.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yep. By 2015, the show had become one of the most popular podcasts in the world. In 2020, Rogan signed an exclusive contract with Spotify for a reported $200 million million dollars.

[Reese Oliver]

I feel like the Joe Rogan Experience is one of those projects that gets a lot of merit by virtue of just being really old. And like not actually because it's good. It's just been here for a long time. So people give it a lot of credit as some kind of figure of authority.

[Amanda Montell]

I also think it' reading the full name of the podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience, because I kind of forgot it was called that due to the fact that people just refer to it as Joe Rogan.

[Reese Oliver]

Like he's a late night host.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Or like he's a cult leader. We forget that the People's Temple was called the People's Temple because it's just referred to as Jonestown. That's how you know that Joe Rogan has reached cult leader status. Or that's one clue that his name is metonymous with his media platform, his ideology. And we'll get into this later. He is a cult leader of his own making and he is irreversibly attached to what Joe Rogan the ideology represents.

[Reese Oliver]

Kind of such a self fulfilling prophecy. Like he's just there because he's there and you're just not really supposed to question it. But if you do question it, you realize there's no real reason for him to be a public figure. He just kind of is because he says he is and runs with it and has been doing that for so long.

[Amanda Montell]

The ultimate spin doctor.

[Reese Oliver]

The ultimate spin doctor. And the way that he spin doctors is most often by doing absolutely no spinning at all. He is just kind of very neutral and goes with the whims of whomever is on his show at the current moment.

[Amanda Montell]

I imagine the Joe Rogan Experience is like a tilt whirl that hasn't started yet. And it's just like a bunch of terrible men strapped into those crazy little seats on the Tilt a whirl, talking at each other, being like, when's this thing gonna start?

[Reese Oliver]

Just like nausea prepar. So the Joe Rogan Experience is known for cultivating powerful political and cultural influence through like edge, lordy purposefully controversial topics and guests and as I mentioned, very little structure to the conversation or standards that these guests are held to. Rogan's repertoire of scandal himself is very robust. He has been accused of racism, sexism, transphobia, all the things in the form of comments on his podcast usually. And while Rogan tends to deny all accusations of wrongdoing, in February 2022 some Spotify removed over 50 episodes of the podcast for their insensitivities. Censorship is probably what he would say.

[Amanda Montell]

But for sure and Speaking of the objective structurelessness and tomfoolery of his interviews, I've interviewed psychologists and scholars of parasocial relationships in the past who have an interesting take on the relationship between podcasters and their listeners and, and how intimate that is. And I think about this a lot, as the three of us probably do as podcasters ourselves, but when it comes to like a confidently speaking, I'm rolling my eyes, but charismatic figure on the mic, Joe Rogan being the most populist, mainstream, lowest common denominator type dude, but like, on another point along the political spectrum, like Sam Harris is also one of these guys when they're in your ear for just hours on end. And let me specifically say, when Joe Rogan is on the air meandering for hours on end, as his bro y flock is like making high protein breakfasts for themselves or whatever the fuck men do. It just creates this dependence, this familiarity, like, he's with you in your home, it doesn't even matter what he's saying. And I remember my terrible ex boyfriend who listened to him would say things like, oh, he's just a great interviewer, but that was just like this buzz phrase that these dudes were condition to repeat as a justification for their engagement with this dude who has nothing to offer.

[Reese Oliver]

Really, it's like, no, he just is an interviewer who gets a variety of guests because he again, has no, like, moral positioning of his own. And that's pretty much it.

[Amanda Montell]

I've heard people say that, like, I mean, this is an old meme, but Joe Rogan is like goop for men. It's like how people.

[Reese Oliver]

I don't think it's well thought out enough for that.

[Amanda Montell]

No, honestly, like, I think Gwyneth Paltrow is actually way more of a girl boss than Joe Rogan. I would describe him as a girl boss. He's a male girl boss. But yeah, I think goop for men is too flattering for Joe Rogan. I think Gwyneth Paltrow is so much more like, diversified in her income stream. She's an Oscar winning actress and Joe Rogan is literally, yeah, he's just like a still guy on a tilt, a whorl that people for some reason tune into.

[Reese Oliver]

He's just this court jester sniveling in the corner and everyone's like, yeah, listen to him. He's been in this town longer than any of us and he refuses to leave that spot. So clearly he must know a lot. And it's like, why are we listening to this guy? Nobody has to Be giving this guy money.

[Amanda Montell]

Wait, that's really interesting that you call him a court jester, because I'm throwing a medieval themed birthday party. I wish the two of you could come where I'm assigning all of my friends a medieval role. It's really cringe, but free. And I assigned a friend to be a jester, and I was looking up what the history of jesters is, and there's a fascinating legacy that goes back thousands of years. But what I didn't realize is that during really, really controlled periods like the medieval era, you know, feudalism, court jesters were, like, the only people who were granted this permission to, like, roast the king, to entertain the king with filterlessness or crude jokes that other people would be, like, beheaded for making. And that kind of feels like. Exactly. Joe Rogan.

[Reese Oliver]

He has this immunity because people think he's funny. Question mark. I'm genuinely asking, like, that's a question, Anna.

[Amanda Montell]

Valid win. But might I add, at the end of the day, the jester was actually really just the king's bitch and could be put to death like anyone else anytime if he went too far. So I think the analogy is actually kind of perfect.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. But anyhow, clearly Joe Rogan's podcast is very polarizing. Not everybody feels the same way about it, but this polarization really only makes his loyalists much more annoying, devoted, Whatever you want to call it. And the Joe Rogan Experience continues to be the most listened to podcast on Spotify. We're coming for you, though.

[Amanda Montell]

No, we're not. And that's the thing. No, we're not. I don't want to be the most listened to podcast. We all have a life.

[Reese Oliver]

I do. If it means Joe Rogan won't be.

[Amanda Montell]

Right. Okay, someone's got to dethrone him. But I think it's a green flag that I don't really want it to be.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, no, it's good that it's good that it shouldn't be us.

[Akilah Hughes]

It should be someone.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, remember on our ChatGPT episode when Amanda Silberling quoted that funny tweet that said the Democrats need a psychopath and Gavin Newsom could be that psychopath? Yeah, I don't want to be that psychopath.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah, no, no, I think replace him with, like, good hang.

[Chelsea Charles]

Totally heavy is the head that has to be the psychopath to replace the psychopath. So, no.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God.

[Reese Oliver]

Where's the podcast editing headphones.

[Chelsea Charles]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay, Joe Rogan experience has over 11 million listeners per episode. Even the logo has really cultish Vibes. I don't know if you've ever had the displeasure of looking at it, but it's this really awful caricature of Joe Rogan with this third eye in the middle of his forehead. It's giving AI generated. It's obviously not. Cause. Cause the show's been around since 2009.

[Amanda Montell]

It does look like an NFT. And if you looked like an NFT before NFTs, it's not a flex.

[Reese Oliver]

No, it looks like he's very much trying to look like a cult leader, though. Like the lightning bolts on the side of the logo, the red and black color scheme. The third eye.

[Chelsea Charles]

The third eye.

[Amanda Montell]

No, I think he's trying to get in front of it in like a funny, edgelordy ironic way. I mean, your third eye, what it represents, like wisdom.

[Chelsea Charles]

All knowing. Yeah, yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

All knowing consciousness. I think he was like, well, if I call myself this, then you can't call me that in a negative way.

[Reese Oliver]

Yeah. I think when you know that you can't and shouldn't take yourself seriously. Like the logo for his podcast couldn't be like a serious photo of him because he's not a person with any kind of merit that that picture would hold any kind of impact with you looking at it. So his route is to do something like goofy and sticky outy and. Yeah, I like cultish. Okay, question for the group. What does everybody think the cultiest thing about Joe Rogan is?

[Chelsea Charles]

I think that the cultiest thing about Joe Rogan is the role that he played as one of the, like, OG disciples. Because now I'm hearing 2009 and I didn't know that it was that far back. He played a role as one of the OG disciples of the online incel manosphere adjacent propaganda. And I'm not saying this as a flex, but I really do not engage with this sector of the Internet. Obviously I don't subscribe to any of his. Whatever he has going on, but I also just do not see a lot of Joe Rogan shit on my timeline because I just block. Whatever, Goodbye. But the way that he engaged with the MeToo movement, I remember distinctly, and it was acrid. He used his platform to bring on all these people who were like, anti feminist, anti, like, woman, whatever. And they just kept pushing these ideas that the men in these situations were the real victims. And to me, to sit up there and use your platform to uplift these fucking infuriates me. It's infuriating.

[Amanda Montell]

And it's culty 100% to paint you as like A vessel of ultimate privilege as actually the victim is.

[Reese Oliver]

Seriously.

[Amanda Montell]

Keith Renieri energy.

[Chelsea Charles]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Montell]

What do you think, Rhys?

[Reese Oliver]

I do think the cultiest thing is just that he presents himself as this like very neutral figure under this guise of professionalism. And this is very similar to Mr. Beast, but it just is really such a gateway for them to platform disgusting people and stand behind their words without taking any responsibility for those things themselves. I think he gets away scot free, looking professional and looking like just he's doing his job as an interview host. But no, you chose to put that person on your show. You chose to let them say what they said, make them sound reasonable, edit it the way that you did. All of that was very intentional and I think that's culty.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, his hypocrisy is definitely so, so very culty. I also think his populism is. He presents himself as just like you, my bro, but a little more famous.

[Reese Oliver]

And richer and just smoking weed with Elon Musk.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, you know you're smoking weed in your basement right now, but you could be smoking weed with a tech overlord one day too. I'm just like you, but better, braver, smarter, better listener. And I think that makes him very parasocially influential. So, ew. I think it's time though to get into some deeper cult analysis to understand why Joe Rogan isn't just fucking icky, but in fact something closer to a nefarious cult leader. In order to do that, I do want to expand on this notion of populism a little more, because I really do think he exemplifies the ultimate 21st century manipulative everyman. In my opinion, it does really make sense that one of the most most listened to voices in politics would be a reality star turned mediocre podcaster. Essentially, the Joe Rogan brand is built on interviewing guests from various points along the political, social and intellectual spectrums. And as Reese mentioned, because of this, to Rogan's followers he is this like brilliant, bold, kind of iconoclastic podcast prophet, if you will. However, to his critics, he's more of just like this negligent, careless buffoon who's platforming conspiracy theorists and spreading misinformation. So like many a cult leader from history, Rogan paints himself as just a regular guy asking regular questions. I think that's literally a verbatim quote of how he's characterized himself. And this positioning can be a lot more sinister than it might appear, because while he's hosted trusted scientist and left leaning politician Bernie Sanders, he's also platformed, say, far right neo Nazi affiliated conspiracy theorist Alex Jones and pseudoscientist kook Graham Hancock. Additionally, in his 2024 Netflix comedy special Burn the Boats, he jokingly supported multiple conspiracy theories such as the moon landing being fake and Pizzagate being real. I mean, come on, he's a troll and an opportunist and kind of a dunce, but has so much influence anyway, politically speaking. Back in 2019, Joe Rogan said he would probably vote for Bernie Sanders. And in 2022, during an interview, he claimed not to be a Trump supporter and said he wouldn't have him on his show because that would be a form of endorsement. However, famously in 2024, Rogan did a total 180 by endorsing Trump and had him on his podcast at a critical stage during that presidential race. But then again, recently, he's like gone back. He's condemned Trump. He's apparently not a fan of the brutal militarization. Too little, too late. I think he's creating this political and intellectual whiplash is the point. And all of that is I think kind of this rage bait that keeps people addicted to him and continuing to talk about him.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh yeah, like being a second term converter to Trump supporting is all I need to hear to know that you flock to where the most volatile public opinion is and that's just where you hang out and you don't need anything else. And I don't think people like that are good people.

[Chelsea Charles]

No, I don't know if you all remember, but the backlash he got from bringing Trump on, he said that he, he asked Kamala to come and she turned it down and he basically was saying like bad on her for not wanting to diversify her outreach.

[Reese Oliver]

I remember it being this whole like he is now used as a tool for the right to be. Well, she's not reasonable and level headed and doesn't care about reaching so much of the population because she didn't want to go on this totally non credible hacks podcast that is probably going to edit her to look bad, who has already endorsed her opponent. Like why would she want to go on Rogan for sure?

[Amanda Montell]

I'm just like, okay, okay, maybe he shouldn't have established himself as a raging misogynist. I don't trust him with women.

[Reese Oliver]

Right?

[Amanda Montell]

Like he doesn't respect women. That's point blank true. We've said on this podcast so many times that cult leaders pursue the type of power that they think they can achieve. So say the leader of the MLM, LuLaRoe the notorious leggings empire. She was like this blonde, white Pasadena mom who was like cheugy and was just so the person we wanted to run a leggings empire. Joe Rogan's brand is trying to say this nicely. Doofuses from Hell, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Orc.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God, I've been using the word orc way more. Yes, but that really works for him. He's gonna lean into that energy because that fortifies his platform. Ugh, it's so tough because was Kamala Harris really gonna convert anyone who listens to his podcast? Like, probably not. They're in a cult, right?

[Chelsea Charles]

Absolute.

[Reese Oliver]

No. There was no reason for her to go on Joe Rogan, and that would have been a waste of her very limited resources during that time. But because Joe Rogan is like, so worshiped by the mainstream, they wanted her on there, and they want everything through his little lens because he's their channel of acceptable news. And I think that's crusty and sad.

[Chelsea Charles]

Very crusty.

[Reese Oliver]

But because Joe Rogan is a loud white man, he is a conspiracy theorist that is somehow still worshiped by the mainstream. And I don't say conspiracy theorists lightly. I'm talking like, COVID 19 misinformation, all kinds of anti vax rhetoric, AIDS denialism, that is just being churned out with all of these interviews of very high profile people making all of it look equally legitimate. In April 2021, Joe Rogan said that young, healthy people don't need the COVID 19 vaccines. He later clarified that he wasn't an anti vax person, but later said he continued to believe that the young and healthy don't need them. In September 2021, Rogan tested positive for COVID 19 and publicly announced that he had started a treatment with monoclonal antibodies and ivermectin. Yeah, that's that antiparasitic drug used to deworm livestock. That's the horse medication.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, so that sounds right for him then. Actually, yeah, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

No, definitely correct.

[Amanda Montell]

It's orc juice.

[Reese Oliver]

Orc juice. Definitely correct. And someone for whom that is the correct kind of medication is definitely someone whom I want to be getting all of my public needs news.

[Chelsea Charles]

Exactly.

[Reese Oliver]

So, like, tons of health experts, including the fda, urged the public to not do this and to stop using ivermectin to combat COVID 19 because tons of people were trying to self medicate with Ivermectin and they had to be hospitalized. So in December of that same year, Rogan hosted Robert W. Malone, a conspiracy theorist and a former doctor who was suspended for spreading COVID 19 misinformation. So I mean, misinformation if it's coming from a doctor, I'm tempted to call it disinformation. I feel like at that point it's intentional. Hot take.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yep.

[Reese Oliver]

Either way, Rogan encourages the mistrust of real experts, which can have deadly consequences and is very much in the cult leader playbook.

[Chelsea Charles]

So digging a little bit more into that unchecked power and the disinformation, as Rhys puts it. In January 2022, 270 scientists and healthcare workers wrote an open letter to Spotify to express their concern over the, quote, propagation of false and societally harmful assertions made on Rogan's podcast. The letter condemned Rogan for continuously spreading misinformation and false claims on his podcast, inciting paranoia about doctors and less than ideal situation amid a deadly pandemic. Rogan and Spotify also received backlash from musicians, artists, and other podcasters, including Neil Young and Joni Mitchell, who removed their entire catalogs from Spotify.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, I mean, Spotify is a cult too. Thank you for supporting us.

[Reese Oliver]

Love you.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, not loving all of the ways in which Spotify conducts themselves. And I remember there being a lot of criticism levied at smaller podcasts for remaining on Spotify, but you kind of had to be like Joni Mitchell level famous and settled to remove your work from Spotify. Otherwise, you don't really have any good choices if you want to be a music artist or a podcaster, other than to, like, implicitly remain aligned with this horrible man.

[Chelsea Charles]

Well, after the open letter was written, nothing really came of it. Rogan basically just said, I'm not trying to promote misinformation. I've never tried to do anything with this podcast other than just talk to people and have interesting conversations. Interesting as a stretch.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay.

[Chelsea Charles]

However, he's also said that even if he did spread Covid misinformation, that wouldn't actually bother him, as he's nothing but a, quote, professional shit talker. If that weren't enough, in February 2024, Rogan hosted this guy, Brett Weinstein, a known HIV AIDS denier who promotes the debunked belief that the HIV virus doesn't cause aids. In this episode, Rogan and Weinstein claim that party drugs such as poppers are an important factor for AIDS rather than hiv.

[Reese Oliver]

Huh?

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah. He's also dipped his toes in anti climate change conversations by misinterpreting a global temperature chart and claimed that global temperatures are actually cooling, not rising. Okay, so I'm gonna get on my soapbox for just a second.

[Reese Oliver]

Okay.

[Chelsea Charles]

Specifically talking about HIV and aids, what infuriates me about Joe Rogan is his choice to continuously amplify the voices of these quacks with platforms large enough to cause harm. I've talked about this on the POD before at nauseam, but my mother works in public health, specifically in HIV AIDS research. She's been doing it for over, I would say, 25 years. And she just makes sure that people who are living with HIV and AIDS receive adequate healthcare, education and access to life saving treatment. Because of that work, and the work of so many countless scientists and healthcare professionals, we were genuinely on track to end HIV as a public health threat by 2030. And that progress was obviously destabilized with the Trump administration and with all them cutting HIV prevention funds and all the things. When he gives airtime to HIV denialism, it is not only irresponsible, but it undermines decades of trust in science and all the good things. So I don't know, it's frustrating, it's.

[Amanda Montell]

Sick, and it's such an unbelievably weird hill to die on or like, position to take. I'm just like, why?

[Chelsea Charles]

Why?

[Amanda Montell]

The only reason I can think of is that he is just so willing to stir as much chaos as he can across so many different dimensions so that he ends up being the only figure that people look to. And the hypocrisy that we mentioned earlier where he's like, back and forth between, oh, I'm just a professional shit talker, but listen to me for your science and political information. I can only imagine the cognitive dissonance he must feel. I think he honestly must be like, pretty insecure.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah, yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

I think it comes from a desire to look like you are questioning the world around you and having these deep conversations and examining things for what they are without dismantling or actually examining any of the systems that have unjustly put you in power or that keep you comfortable in ways that maybe you shouldn't be, or that by dismantling them hold you to a standard of being good at your job. No, he doesn't want to actually investigate anything. Okay, so if you are like not so famil with Joe Rogan, you might be like, okay, I get that this guy has a lot of influence, but I don't get exactly what he's saying besides, like, irresponsible podcaster things. That is exactly so nasty. Here's where we're gonna get into it. He's a total bigot. Babes so Joe Rogan's racist and otherwise harmful rhetoric ranges from heavy use of the N word, which he has apologized for and defended. Great. To anti Semitic comments like, quote, the idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous. That's like saying Italians aren't into pizza. It's fucking stupid. End quote.

[Chelsea Charles]

This quote is fucking outrageous because he.

[Reese Oliver]

Is incredibly hypocritical and very, like, confusing and I think, purposefully vague about his views on a lot of marginalized groups. For instance, in his Netflix special Burn the Boats, Joe Rogan said that he believes in trans people and that he fully supports the rights of adults to do whatever makes them happy.

[Amanda Montell]

Believing in trans people, they're not, like, favorite thing.

[Chelsea Charles]

Like, they're centaurs.

[Reese Oliver]

Like they're your children. Exactly. He also claimed to not be homophobic and says that he wishes he was gay. Okay. Do you ask anymore? You want to tell us about it? Okay. Like, it's like Donald Trump. If you just want to be a RuPaul's Drag Race guest host in another life, you can do that. That's fine. You don't have to do all this other shit. Anywho, Joe Rogan's gonna say all of this about what an inclusive ally he is, and then he's gonna go and openly criticize the inclusion of transgender women in women's sports, such as US Swimmer Lia Thomas and MMA fighter Fallon Fox, because there's nothing more that adult men love to get worked up about than paid recess that they could never do.

[Amanda Montell]

The only sport that I've ever seen Joe Rogan participate in was, again, reffing, a competition where two people are seeing who can eat 7,000 spiders the fastest. So I don't. He's really one to comment.

[Chelsea Charles]

That and running his mouth. That's what he runs.

[Akilah Hughes]

There it is.

[Reese Oliver]

And as someone who's a fan of running his mouth without watching what comes out of it, he has also been very open about his anti cancel culture stance. In a 2025 episode of the Joe Rogan Experience, Rogan has said that the resurgence of the R word was a triumph and one of the great cultural victories made by podcasts. Yes, another win for people with absolutely no life.

[Akilah Hughes]

Jesus Christ.

[Chelsea Charles]

I cannot stand a man with an opinion. This is the thing. Joe Rogan turns me into a raging misandrist. It's like, every time he talks, I, like, shut the fuck up, please.

[Amanda Montell]

No, like, reparations. Is Joe Rogan not talking and being burned?

[Reese Oliver]

The guillotine.

[Amanda Montell]

So I think where the cult leader allegations really start to make sense is that Joe Rogan is as an elitist, posing as a guy's guy, although he claims to be just a regular dude who's just asking questions. Let's face the facts. He's now the host of a multi million dollar podcast that has cozy up to many members of the elite on his show, such as Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Donald Trump. He might present himself as a contrarian who's against the establishment, but whether he realizes it or not, he's been helping write the script for the establishment he's so against through his podcast. And because of this, some of his listeners have actually finally begun to question his reliability and trustworthiness, though not enough. Maybe that will change. And have expressed skepticism about whether he's moving away from being a free thinker to a cult follower himself. Regardless, as we mentioned many times, his podcast consistently is at the top of the rankings worldwide, which reflects his sort of infallible cult leader status.

[Akilah Hughes]

Is he even.

[Amanda Montell]

Is it really even him anymore? Like, I really do feel like after he got his $200 million deal with Spotify, it was almost like the ultimate lifestyle inflation. It was like Persona inflation because he got that money and that following based on a Persona that who knows if it's really him, you know, but he now has to commit to the bit or else he'll lose his following.

[Chelsea Charles]

Absolutely. Loser. Okay, so Coltis, after the break, we're gonna get into more now analysis with our special interviewee who's not afraid to take this cult leader to task. This interview was conducted by me and Reese, so stick around for after the break.

[Amanda Montell]

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[Chelsea Charles]

Get into our interview. Here to join us is Akilah Hughes, a writer, comedian and Crooked Media podcast host.

[Reese Oliver]

Aila, welcome to Slack.

[Akilah Hughes]

Hi. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[Reese Oliver]

So excited to have you. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners?

[Akilah Hughes]

My name is Akilah Hughes. I am a writer, comedian and podcast host. I host two podcasts, one with iHeart called Rebel Spirit and another which comes out every Friday from Courier called How Is this Better? Where we just interrogate everything that's happening in our world, from pop culture to political proposals, and ask, is it better? Usually it isn't.

[Reese Oliver]

I love that. That's very fitting. I feel like listeners of Slack will appreciate that kind of beat. They seem like congruent shows and that it's a lot of looking around and wondering what the fuck is going on.

[Akilah Hughes]

And how did we get here and how is it so bad?

[Reese Oliver]

I'm scared, Marty. I want to go home. Alrighty. Just to kick us off, could you explain your relationship to the cult of Joe Rogan?

[Akilah Hughes]

Totally. I mean, I think like most well adjusted people, I heard Joe Rogan for the first time in the back of an U was visiting LA for work and I was like, why is this man talking at lingq? And eventually I asked the Uber driver because it was like a 45 minute ride. I'm like, what's he talking about? And he kind of came out of a trance and was like, I don't know. And I was like, that's what this is. This is like, that's what this is. And so, you know, that was the first time I heard him. I used to do a podcast with Crooked media called what a Day. It's their daily news podcast. And I guess the one brag I have is that we did beat Joe Rogan for number one the day that we premiered. But that's sort of the beginning and end of my, like, personal relationship. Yes. Period. Period.

[Reese Oliver]

Poo.

[Akilah Hughes]

We ended him. He's chopped. And so we did. Yeah, he is unk and frankly, chopped. And besides that, I deal with his clips and people listening to him socially. That's about it. We've all suffered it.

[Chelsea Charles]

Oh, definitely. Listen, it's like in the beginning it was interesting, I guess, and then I was like, bl. Block, block, no access. So, Akilah, what do you think is the cultiest thing about Joe Rogan and his followers?

[Akilah Hughes]

I've been thinking about this question. I was anticipating it and I think that I've come to it. So the cult, like nature of Joe Rogan and his fans really comes down to fandom generally. So, like, in the past six months, we have had people have the delusions of a rapture that did not come. We've had people hypothesize an episode of Stranger Things that was not me. You know, like, I think that we are in an era where people are looking to believe in something. And I think that Joe Rogan is, in a way, hypnotic to his fans because these are long episodes. We're talking about three hours, no editing. And so, like, if you're isolated, say you're an Uber driver and you're alone all day, and, you know, maybe people ask for a quiet ride, but you decided to play his podcast out loud. You know, that's your best friend. And so you want to believe that your best friend knows what he's talking about when he's asking questions. It's in good faith that he has your best interest at heart and that his sort of stony demeanor is this disarming factor, and it doesn't make you skeptical of him. It somehow endears him to you. And so I think that the problem is it's like, you can't really be a casual listener of Joe Rogan. You're either a person who was indoctrinated, like, years ago and, like, cannot get off the wagon. This is my best friend. Or you're just like, a person who, like, hears it one time, like me. And you're like, wow, this guy's wrong about a lot of stuff. And those people are like, you can't talk like that about my best friend. And so I think when you look at cults historically in the United States, it is all about one personality and defending it at all costs and believing beyond belief that, like, they have some answer or some personality trait that makes them the correct person to deliver a message. And his fans, because they're just fans, they are not his friends. He does not know them, and they don't know him really, unfortunately, believe that. And I think the problem with it is, goes beyond Joe Rogan, right? One day Joe Rogan will be no longer, and someone will just fill that void. And unfortunately, we have to break these sorts of systems that allow people to be deluded enough to think that they're best friends with a guy who rambles while he's high to whoever will listen.

[Reese Oliver]

No, we do. He's truly such, like, a jarring example of the halo effect, because people just see him and they think, like, oh, he's a semi competent interviewer. Which, when you look and sound like Joe Rogan and you speak with enough confidence, you'll get a pack of insecure white men to follow you around no matter what you do. So it's not like he's doing anything very groundbreaking. But people think because they identify with him that they should live their life in his Footsteps.

[Akilah Hughes]

I mean, how many podcasts exist now? Because people who listen to Joe Rogan were like, I should do that too. It's like, nah, dude, he shouldn't even be doing it. I can do it.

[Reese Oliver]

And it's like, that's the point. He can't, buddy. And neither can you.

[Chelsea Charles]

Speaking a little bit about that confidence, do you know how confident you have to be to put out episodes that are two hours long? No edits.

[Akilah Hughes]

A lot of, like, deep breathing. A lot of you not knowing what you're talking about. Like, you're the interviewer, and you're. They're like, I'm just curious. And it's like, right, did you write any of these questions down? Did you. Have you thought about anything deeply? Do you know who you're talking to right now? And they're like, not really.

[Chelsea Charles]

No outlines, just vibes.

[Akilah Hughes]

Just vibes. Like, I rolled out of bed, smoked, and then I decided to just ask this old man with gray hair in front of me. And it's like, it's Bill Gates.

[Reese Oliver]

Literally.

[Akilah Hughes]

You could have done any homework. And people are like, that's what makes him relatable. Not really. I think most people knowing that they were gonna talk to Bill Gates would at least brush their teeth. You know, I'm just gonna put it out there.

[Reese Oliver]

And, yeah, I don't know if the guy interviewing Bill Gates should be relatable in the way that, like, I, sitting on the couch at home, should be able to relate to him right now. I don't think that that's a good thing. But who do you think this target audience is that is lapping this up, and what do you think is drawing them in and keeping them so loyal?

[Akilah Hughes]

Well, I would say his target audience and the audience that he has cultivated is very male, almost exclusively. I don't know very many women outside of, like, tech people who want to know what other tech people are listening to, who are, like, I care to. And it's not because, like, they hate men. It's like, they're gonna listen to a man. They needed to be edited. Wrap it up. So I think that, like, if we start with men, I think that there are lots of buckets, right? I think every socioeconomic class, I think probably coasts, center of the country. I don't believe that he has, like, a huge international following unless it's, like, ufc people who are just like, I want to feel closer to that action. And I'm, like, obsessed with anything from that sphere. I think the main thing that links them all, though, is, like, there is kind of a level of loneliness. And I also think the feeling of this guy gets to say what he wants and no one pushes back. And like it's culty in the same way that MAGA to me feels culty, where it's like, look at this guy getting away with things. I never got to get away with things. My wife divorced me, my kids don't talk to me. Like, divorced dads are at the top of the list of his listeners. And then it's just every everybody else. I mean, Elon Musk is like, I can't wait to go back on there because my kids won't talk to me.

[Chelsea Charles]

Exactly.

[Akilah Hughes]

But this guy's kind of like a big baby. He'll talk to me and maybe he'll.

[Reese Oliver]

Come up on their for you page because people actually listen to him.

[Akilah Hughes]

Exactly right. People want to hear what he has to say for some reason. But I think there is just this sort of epidemic, all of these studies. And like, I won't be able to quote them. So good luck to your researcher who will pull them together. But I've read them, I've seen the research men don't have a lot of friends, they don't have community. They kind of laugh at the idea of it. But I do think that they still have things they want to process. And I think they would like to be in the position that Joe Rogan is in where they can just sort of say what they think and have people listen to it. And so for them, it's almost like their aspirational guy in the way that like lifestyle gurus on YouTube used to be a thing for women. I think that's very much what he represents to them is like, yeah, if only my life could be like that, guys.

[Chelsea Charles]

Oh, that's perfect. Why do you think Joe Rogan has so many followers as he does, especially when he seems to flip flop back and forth between his beliefs?

[Akilah Hughes]

I would say it's two things. I think the first reason that Joe Rogan can maintain an audience is that he puts out so much content. I think people don't want to talk about that fact. But it's like they studied this in monkeys, right? Where they were like, we put a mirror at the zoo and we put up posters of like one monkey all over the monkeys cages. And so everybody was like, that monkey's famous. Like all the monkeys started to treat that monkey differently. I believe that that's happening every day. You are bombarded by a new four hour episode. And so I think that there is just a level of flooding the zone with crap and clips, and he can get all of these guests because it's already so big. So it's like, there doesn't seem to be any sign of stopping. So I think that that's honestly a part that people kind of ignore, is like, yeah, if you made that much stuff and were so inescapable, you'd probably really rich in of famous, too. The other part, I think, of maintaining an audience is sort of just what you were saying about you can't be nailed down. And I think that this is Trump's success, too. The fact is, Donald Trump can say today that he feels one way and change his mind tomorrow, and his fan base will carry that water. Because the reality is, whatever Donald Trump says the reality is in this moment, if he thinks that we're liberating people in Greenland because of colonialism, but then tomorrow it's about the resources, but then the next day it's about our proximity to them. So the answer is, you have no real reason. It doesn't matter. And I think that breaking people down to the point of having to fight about the details, when you can just sort of be like, well, it doesn't matter. You can't hold me to it. So I'm unaccountable for what I'm saying. I was just asking questions. I think that is their way out.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Charles]

Devil's advocate.

[Akilah Hughes]

And if you have no center, it's like, you can't be attacked. I just think that that's true. Like, I think that if no one knows what you believe, but you're very famous, then, like, you can maintain that level of fame because people aren't following you because of what you believe. And I don't think people follow Joe Rogan because of what he believes. In the same way that people were asking during last year's election, is Joe Rogan to the left or right? I'm like, no, this man doesn't have any actual politics. He goes where the money goes.

[Chelsea Charles]

Absolutely.

[Reese Oliver]

He's not competent enough to process politics in any way.

[Akilah Hughes]

He hasn't thought about anything deeply ever. That's why he could talk for three hours about a topic that has a definitive answer.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yes. And the simple no is the best response to that. Is he on the left or right?

[Akilah Hughes]

No, and unaffected by the outcome. As we can see, no one's holding his feet to the fire about him saying that he, you know, was supporting Trump. Just the other day, I commented on a video of him being, like, very outspoken against these ice raids in Minnesota and I can tell you his fans were like, I just think we should allow him to change his mind. I'm like. And never hold him accountable though. Right, exactly right. So that he can in the next 10 minutes change his mind and say that ice is heroes and the way that they're hurting and killing people is correct. And you'll carry that water. Why can't he just feel how he.

[Reese Oliver]

It's because they want that same leeway.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yes, absolutely.

[Akilah Hughes]

And their bitch ex wife won't lift her.

[Reese Oliver]

So now they have to protect all that.

[Akilah Hughes]

You know I'm right. Like she reminded me. She pulled up receipts of when I was wrong.

[Chelsea Charles]

That's one of the cultiest things obviously about him, specifically as the charismatic leader. Because oftentimes in these cult like structures, these people can kind of like obfuscate the point of so many things. And like you say, they can absolve themselves from any type of responsibility, but people will still blindly follow anything that.

[Akilah Hughes]

They say all the way.

[Reese Oliver]

Anything that they say. Because the person in question is not positioning themselves as an authority figure because they know that their audience feels threatened by authority figures. This is something that Joe Rogan and Mr. Beast have in common that I see so strongly is that they have this super strong, I'm just like you, I'm just a regular dude Persona. Even though they're like raking in millions. So how do you think that Persona is working for him?

[Akilah Hughes]

You know, I think something that's really interesting, I read this in Garbage Day, which is like a tech newsletter about the Internet and why things are the way that they are and explaining it. And this was probably about a year ago. Now they're talking about Mr. Beast and how he is specifically viral for viral sake. And I think that is actually the beginning and end of it. Right. It's like this idea that if people are talking about what you're saying, regardless of what it means and it feels disarming because it's like, well, you're just some guy, you know, you could be my friend at the bar or in Mr. Beast's case, like you're just some guy who's in his 20s whose mouth is open a lot. I don't really know. I don't know what his opinion.

[Reese Oliver]

There's nothing to know. That's the point.

[Akilah Hughes]

Right, Exactly. You just sort of project what you want onto him or you're repulsed. Like mini well adjusted people maybe. I just think for a lot of people it's just sort of like a Rorschach test. And it's like Whatever you believe today is great. And I do think that there is this sort of emptiness in our culture. People are constantly looking for an answer or someone who can tell us things aren't going well. So they're like, well, someone must know why. Who's the guy? You know? And it's hard to paint that onto Mr. Beast. I think his thing is really totally different. I think his appeal is he is nothing. He fades into the background, and it's all just like, the premise of whatever he's doing that's fair. He's like, we're at the bottom of a volcano, and I'm giving you dollars to claw your way out. And it's like, I guess I'm a masochist, and I want to see these people burn. And Joe Rogan is just sort of a guy who is like a running DVD commentary about the world around you. And it's just like, he's. I think, for some people, just really inoffensive, which makes it really simple. He is never grinding an axe. I mean, look, has he fallen off? No, he's still the most prolific podcaster. He's very, very wealthy. He keeps getting deals. But I do think that there's at least a new discussion about him, which, like, before was just sort of like. But he's so. Everyone should go on his podcast if they can go on his podcast. And now, I guess it feels like there's a shelf life to this sort of bumbling idiot or reluctant jester person who just doesn't own any of the commentary. But their entire job is commentary.

[Reese Oliver]

Entire job just going, what?

[Akilah Hughes]

Exactly? Like, saying, like, this is what I believe. And then when it's wrong, being like, I don't know. I don't believe anything.

[Reese Oliver]

I'm just a guy. Why'd you listen to me? I only told you you to listen to me.

[Akilah Hughes]

Exactly. I don't even listen to me. Stop listening to me. They're like, he's just like me. I don't know anything.

[Reese Oliver]

Exactly. Two dumb bitches looking at each other going, exactly 100%.

[Akilah Hughes]

It's the listener and him always, every time.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, so oftentimes, in cult structures, we see this quite evident us versus them dichotomy. How does Joe Rogan contribute to culty division?

[Akilah Hughes]

I mean, that's very interesting. I will say that if you ever ask someone, like, you find out somebody listens to Joe Rogan, and then you're like me, and you have no poker face, you just start laughing, like, in their face.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

They're like, you just haven't given it a chance. You just gotta try. And I'm like, I don't know, man. I heard two Hours in a Car one time, and that was plenty. And I'll tell you, I remember what he said. Most of his listeners can't tell you what an episode is about, but I remember he was at the point that I was in there. He went from talking about pop politics broadly to like a guy chasing a chicken up the street. And I'm like, this, to me, isn't even entertainment. Like, it's not even entertainment.

[Reese Oliver]

Something worse.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yes. And so it really, to me, feels like fandom. Right? And I don't want to come after Taylor Swift fans because I'm like, please believe in anything. If this is what you care about is this album, this artist, fine. Not my biggest cup of tea, but fair. And I think that there is a level of if an album is not as good as another album, you cannot say it in that fandom. And I think they are desperate. Desperate to feel like what they like is cool, which is fine. I mean, I get it. Like, I'm a big Beyonce fan. I don't think.

[Chelsea Charles]

Hey, I think it's.

[Akilah Hughes]

I think it's hard to point out any flops personally, but I'm also an adult who is like, if you don't like Beyonce, that's a you're. That's a you be. Yeah, exactly. That's a you thing.

[Reese Oliver]

You're wrong, but that's fine.

[Akilah Hughes]

Exactly. You have bad taste and you're not an artist. But, like.

[Amanda Montell]

Right.

[Akilah Hughes]

And I think that for them, it is just especially because it's men. I think that there is this, like, investment in what I like is cool. And other people think it's cool. A little brother syndrome is what I would call it. They're like, don't you like what I'm bringing to the table? It's this podcast. And I'm like, I think it sucks. And it to them feels like a personal attack. So I've tried to soften it. You know, maybe it doesn't suck. I don't think it's any good. I can hedge how I say it.

[Reese Oliver]

We can be civil.

[Akilah Hughes]

But I do think that that is it where it's like, if you've been listening for five or six years, seven years of Joe Rogan, I mean, his show has been going on for a pretty long time. Time in, like, the sphere of podcasts, you're not going to get off the wagon now. It would just be like cutting out a family member. And I think that that's the unfortunate thing. And especially with, like, culty people, you know, people who fall for it, it's hard to admit that you're wrong. There's a lot of shame in that. There's also just, like, you got to fill that void somehow. And I think that that feels really daunting to people. I used to live in la. I was there for, like, six years. And Scientology, obviously, is, like, really huge there. And again, not my cup of tea, but it is some people's religion, right? And I had a friend from LA tell me, like, you know, when they do mixers for Scientology, they won't talk to Jewish people or black people. And I was like, what do you mean? They were like, they won't try to, like, get them to join. And I'm like, well, why? And he's like, well, because historically, they've had to figure out when things are, like, a scam.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

Like, they've fallen for something before and, like, had to, like, historically dig their way out of an oppressor. Well. Whereas, like, someone who doesn't read that way might be willing to believe you when they say that this is a free cruise across the Atlantic Ocean for an unpaid intern. Like, naivete. We not doing that again. You know what I mean? We're not doing it again.

[Chelsea Charles]

Been there, done that.

[Akilah Hughes]

Exactly. Unfortunately, it went poorly, and we're still trying to. And so I think that, like, there's also a level of middle America white people. Because I do. I would also. Obviously, it's more white people listening to him. Like, there's no world where, like, the majority of his listeners are not white. But I do think that white people in the middle of the country who don't have community, who don't have a third space, who have their home life that's not going well in a job that they hate, are, like, this is my third space. And I can relate to people in the, like, subreddit about Joe Rogan. That's kind of it. And this is, in a way, my religion. Like, this is what I get to believe in.

[Reese Oliver]

God, that's so sad. I mean, it is sad, but it's.

[Akilah Hughes]

Like, you know what I started thinking recently? Like, life is long, and people. People always say it's short. But I'm like, you, again, you're not doing, what do you know that's longer?

[Reese Oliver]

What do you know that's longer?

[Akilah Hughes]

You may be deaf, but, like, who.

[Reese Oliver]

Can say life is short and also insufferably long, right?

[Akilah Hughes]

And so it's like, people Just gotta fill their time. It's that or getting one of those, like, cups with a ball on a string and just, like, trying to.

[Reese Oliver]

Might as well. Most of the time, he's saying so much nothing anyway that it's like, it's not really doing you much harm.

[Akilah Hughes]

They could listen to music.

[Reese Oliver]

They.

[Akilah Hughes]

They could, like, care about art and the culture that they live. No, don't do that.

[Chelsea Charles]

No. Have you seen this online where people are saying that men specifically, that are kind of in this ether of, like, Joe Rogan red pill, incels manosphere, use a specific language where you can kind of, like, spot them out in a crowd? They have been using the word women in exchange for woman.

[Akilah Hughes]

Always. It's always plural. I'm like, that's one person that is grammatical.

[Reese Oliver]

But usually they're calling them females anyway, so it doesn't matter. Right.

[Akilah Hughes]

Females is already, like, come on, bro, the reddest flag. And I do think. I mean, you know, if we zoom out, this country has a major literacy problem. All the reporting is, like, it's a lot worse than we think. Like, it's bad.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, it's scary.

[Akilah Hughes]

I'm like, yeah, bitch, we're banning books. We are banning. Yes. We're banning books. We're banning books. And it's like, geez, like, just let them read whatever they choose to read. Let them choose to read.

[Reese Oliver]

If we're reading the transcript of the Joe Rogan podcast, it's probably, like, sight words at their reading level anyway. We can get them started with that. We can work their way up.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah, like, they're not having to look any words up. Let's just start. Exactly.

[Reese Oliver]

No polysyllabic words.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah. Nothing. No. And if they are, they're incorrectly stated. And the producer gets on and is like, actually the words you're looking for. And he's like, oh, that's right.

[Reese Oliver]

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah, exactly. He's like, oh, I hate words. I think that, like, there is just a level of regression in it. And I'm really shitting on these guys. I feel for them. They need a friend. It isn't me, but I just feel that, like, talk about, like, flop era, unk. I just feel like it's part of this whole moment we're in where, like, women and men are just growing at completely different rates and different directions. Like, these men aren't going to college because they think it's a woman's thing because women are overachieving in college. And so women are reading books and bettering their lives and, like, trying to have hobbies and, like, building real friendships. And these guys are just alone in their room hating women for doing it.

[Reese Oliver]

Scary times.

[Akilah Hughes]

It is scary. It's not good. I think they should unplug the Internet. Like, after this podcast comes out, do a little promo. Specifically this one.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yes.

[Akilah Hughes]

And since it'll be the last podcast that comes out, everyone will listen to it because it'll be like, oh, the last of an era.

[Chelsea Charles]

Nostalgia. What do you think is the most dangerous effects of this cult versus some positive effect impacts of the cult, if any?

[Akilah Hughes]

Okay, I don't know if you remember this clip of Aretha Franklin being asked to, like, rave pop stars, and she gets two beautiful gowns. Beautiful gowns. I wish I could say beautiful gowns about Joe Rogan. You know, I think the negative aspect, easier to speak to, but okay, let's see. I do think that it's a lot of time that people are investing in something that is. Is not, I don't think, enriching in any way. And I'm not gonna say that people can't have their hobbies and that every podcast has to be educational and you can't just enjoy hearing somebody talk and whatever. Like, fine. And I do think that, like, if that's the only friend they have on the entire planet, then, like, okay, it's very sad. Please touch a grass. Please touch a single grass. But as far as the bad goes, I think it impacts people's personalities ultimately, and that's the negative downside. If this is the most popular podcaster on Earth, who's making all of this money? In a time when people are broke, they have nothing to really live for. Everything feels out of reach. Like, they're like, I'm never going to have a wife. I'm never going to have kids. I'm never going to have a house. I literally am leasing my car and the payment is due, and I don't have it. This is someone that they look up to. And I think that when we lower the standard of role models, unfortunately, that impacts people. And so you have. And I wouldn't even say, like, I used to be, like, it's a generation of men. I think it's like, men across all ages, unfortunately, are, like, affected by this because it's like, if you're a deadbeat dad and you got to, like, hang out with your kids for the weekend and you don't relate to them, you might just put on an episode of Joe Rogan and now they're listening to it. It's like a damn parasite with Joe Rogan is dirty.

[Reese Oliver]

Nasty. Awful words.

[Akilah Hughes]

Horrific. Horrific. This is what I'm saying. Unplug the Internet. But, like, it's really bad. I just think that he exudes a lot of things that are wrong with society. Like, sort of money at all costs, no virtues. Right. Like, complains about virtue signaling, but, like, not a virtue signal insight. I can't think of a single thing. Like, he's not generous. He's not especially patient because, like, he'll just rush to judgment and then be wrong. Like, he's not curious. He doesn't really give anybody the benefit of the doubt. He just sort of, like, says what he thinks. He doesn't think that education is important based on what he says and how he talks. So it's like, if this is the person that people are unfortunately looking up to, like, I don't think people are listening. And, like, critically, being like, this episode of Joe Rogan wasn't great for these reasons. Reasons.

[Chelsea Charles]

Right, right, right.

[Reese Oliver]

Could have been better.

[Akilah Hughes]

No one's writing in. Like, it's the newspaper being like, you spelled these words wrong. Like, they're just taking it in and then heating up something in the microwave. Like, I feel like it's really bad. I think it's bad not only for individuals. I think it's bad for entertainment generally. We have a lot of executives in Hollywood and at these sort of podcast companies now who think that that is a good model. And the idea that quantity is somehow its own form of quality is, like, pervasive. Or it. Well, people are listening to it. It's like, yeah, a lot of people listen to, like, white noise to fall asleep doesn't mean that that's like.

[Reese Oliver]

Has value. Right, right.

[Akilah Hughes]

And so I worry because throughout all of human history, there have been people, and especially, like, in moments of technological advances in communications, Right. When we get a printing press, suddenly we're getting a bunch of, like, people are just saying whatever they think and printing it out. And then the Internet shows up, and it's like, now we got a million conspiracy websites, and people are just going down rabbit holes and losing their minds. Now we have mass media communication, and there are probably as many podcasts as listeners to podcasts at this point. And so I think that if that is the top and the bar is that low, that doesn't bode well for the future of the medium or any other sort of mass media. I think that we are in a lot of trouble. He needs a hundred million dollars to get stoned and talk. Like, I. What are we doing? He would have taken 25 out of wasting resources.

[Reese Oliver]

He's here. Okay. What advice would you give to someone trying to escape the cult of Joe Rogan?

[Akilah Hughes]

Well, here's what I will say, guys, because it's. Guys, look, you might have some problems with women. And I think that if you listen to a single woman every day and, like, one who's, like, looking out for you, not one who's mean, but, like, don't look to these guys as some sort of role model or, like, he's so cool and based because your friends think it, like, Joe Rogan has no bitches. Joe Rogan has long nipples. Joe Rogan has nothing to say. And I think the reality is, if you're listening to some dude four hours a day and then you're mad at women, the call's coming from inside the house.

[Reese Oliver]

My guy.

[Akilah Hughes]

Joe Rogan is not a woman. But that's who you're listening to all day. I just think that if we can be realistic about what we put into our bodies having some sort of effect on our bodies, then, like, what we're hearing all day has an effect on the outcome of our lives. So just diversify it. Give it a shot one day. Don't listen to him. Put on a woman. One woman. Just listen to music. Try something else. Like, I think objectively, like, people don't realize how much of their time they're spending, and they think, you know, I've watched this one guy on YouTube, and I won't shut him out because I'm so disappointed. I liked his videos, and then he did an episode about how he can't listen to music because it gets stuck in his head. And then he was like, so I have this addiction to podcasts. And the only thing he listened to was like, Theo von Joe Rogan. And I'm like, right, your brain doesn't work anymore.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

No.

[Reese Oliver]

There's no way you're healthy person after that.

[Akilah Hughes]

No, no. And I think that the reality is life. Like I said, it's too long. You got to fill it with something. But maybe not just one dude's opinions. Maybe not just one dude who, like, wouldn't pee on you if you were on fire making stuff up. Maybe just go out sometime. Go to a place with real people. Take a risk.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yes.

[Reese Oliver]

Take a shower and take a risk.

[Akilah Hughes]

And then take a risk, because you're not going to have a good time if you didn't shower for it.

[Chelsea Charles]

Facts, yo, listeners. If you don't take anything away from this episode, take away that Joe Rogan gets zero bitches and has long nipples. Okay, take that away.

[Akilah Hughes]

Right? At least I'm being honest about it. We are in a rough time and so we're all trying to self soothe. There's other things you can do. You could clean your baseboards, schedule a dentist appointment. These are easy things. We can all be easy.

[Reese Oliver]

Simple. Go shopping for some new pants. I don't know. Yes, anything.

[Amanda Montell]

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[Akilah Hughes]

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[Reese Oliver]

Okay, it's time to play a game. This game is called Stand, Ban Bonk. And it is. This sounds like a cult version of Fuck, Marry Kill. We are going to give you three different Joe Rogan Experience guests of a certain denomination and you are to tell us whom you would Stand, Ben and Bonk.

[Akilah Hughes]

Okay, so is Bonk just like now I have to fight them.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, I was thinking bonk in, like, a sexual context.

[Akilah Hughes]

Oh, God.

[Reese Oliver]

You can take bonk as beef if you like. Chelsea, what do you think?

[Chelsea Charles]

I go back and forth. Sometimes I feel like it's sexing, and sometimes I feel like it's whack a mole. Every time I hear bunk. I can't remember what we came up with.

[Akilah Hughes]

Listen, what's treated as sexy. And if I can't find anyone sexy.

[Reese Oliver]

If you just want to hit everybody, you can hit everybody. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay.

[Reese Oliver]

Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jack Dorsey.

[Akilah Hughes]

Elon. Okay, so bonk is hit.

[Reese Oliver]

Solve that real quick.

[Akilah Hughes]

We got a violently bonk, Elon. Big bonk in the head. I mean, here's the thing. I gotta ban Jack Dorsey. He really fucked up. He should not have sold Twitter. And I think he shouldn't be so ashamed to show his face anywhere. And also, you know, like, I think the listeners of Joe Rogan are not getting anything from him. The only reason that I would. I don't really stand Mark Zuckerberg, but since it's the rules, I would say, like, listen to him. And what you get out of it is, like, don't be like that guy. That guy is like a weird robot. Yeah, that guy said that he, like, occasionally drinks coffee, social media. Like, maybe that's what he said. Like, it was something weird. And I'm like, dude, why can't you just say one normal thing? You have the floor.

[Chelsea Charles]

No. Absolutely impossible.

[Reese Oliver]

You built it, my brother, Right?

[Akilah Hughes]

Like, literally, like, the floor is yours. Yeah. And don't go on a show that's unedited. Like, you need the editing. Take the editing.

[Chelsea Charles]

Facts. Facts. Okay, next group. Post Malone, Kanye West, Miley Cyrus.

[Akilah Hughes]

We're gonna have to Stan Miley in the that group. I've got my own personal feud with Miley. I used to work at Disney. I did the internship there in college, and she was performing at their parade. And she almost ran me over in the tunnels under the Magic Kingdom. She wasn't supposed to be driving a golf cart and she was not looking at the mirrors. And I should have got hit because I'd be really rich right now.

[Reese Oliver]

Oh, my God, that would be fun.

[Akilah Hughes]

But I jumped out of the way, so you know what? Sorry, Miley. There's always going to be a little bit on my part, but generally speaking, like, her publicly. I saw some clips of her on Joe Rogan or maybe with some other shows, but she's got a level of sass and, like, comeback witticisms. That I really appreciate. And, like, we need women in these spaces. We have to ban Kanye. When I think of Kanye West, I'm like, you know how some people with young kids, like, little kids, want to have a YouTube channel? And so, like, they'll film their kids and then just, like, show them the video on their phone and be like, that's your channel.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah.

[Akilah Hughes]

Like, I think that, like, we need to, like, create systems where, like, Kanye's.

[Reese Oliver]

Not being Montessori record.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yes, absolutely.

[Akilah Hughes]

Where, like, he believes it, and he's like, wow, everybody's with what I have to say. And it's like, no one's hearing him. Like, he's in and just, like, solitude. Absolutely. And then post Malone, like, I don't want to violently bonk him. I also do not want to sexually bonk him. I think he's just sort of like, but he has to be bonked, so we'll say it and move on.

[Reese Oliver]

He's been bonked. Okay, we're getting real scary again. Tucker Carlson, Bill Maher, Ben Shapiro.

[Akilah Hughes]

Oh, we're doing the bad bonked Ben Shapiro. It's a white supremacist. I don't care what he says. All right, I've heard enough. I've seen it for years. That man will never waste an opportunity to throw black people who are minding their own business under the bus and come up with stories about their culture and, you know, how to change and blah, blah. And I just think that, like, he is a bad influence and he's a bad guy. Tucker Carlson is just like a pathetic nepo baby grifter. Like, the fish stick money didn't last long enough, and so now he has to be on the Internet, and that's got to be hard. I. I guess we still have to ban him. Bill Maher. I do not, Stan. But what I will say is, I. Stan, the fact that he is just a loser villain. He really represents. I wouldn't say all boomers. I would say a very specific kind of boomer that is, like, angry all the time, even though they're winning. Like, HBO should have canceled that show 20 years ago, and they didn't. Why can't he just take the win?

[Reese Oliver]

Right?

[Akilah Hughes]

The win.

[Reese Oliver]

Why are you so malcon all the time?

[Akilah Hughes]

I didn't win an award. No one wants to hear from you. Take the job. Cash the check.

[Chelsea Charles]

Can't help himself. Can't help himself.

[Akilah Hughes]

There's just nothing behind the eyes.

[Chelsea Charles]

Okay, final one. No explanation. And you know what my final rule is? This is sexual bunk.

[Akilah Hughes]

No, you so you guys are just trying to get the clips. All right, fine. Or clip farming.

[Reese Oliver]

All right, Cult of podcast hoes. Sorry. Here we go. Okay, go with that.

[Chelsea Charles]

Donald Trump. J.D. vance Robert Kennedy Jr.

[Akilah Hughes]

Oh, my God. When I thought you were frozen, I was like. I wasn't stunned.

[Reese Oliver]

How convenient.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yeah, exactly. I just, like, am staring while I, like, close the window. Darn my Internet. Damn. Sexually. Here's the thing. I guess I will sexually bonk. And I'm doing the bonking, so take that, Jaden event. He is not getting an ounce of pleasure out of this bonk.

[Chelsea Charles]

No. Okay, okay, okay.

[Akilah Hughes]

If we're gonna. Stan, you guys are evil. I'm so, like, if I could blush, the blush would be. Be happening. I'm going to Stan rfk. I can't explain. And my explanation would not be satisfactory anyway. And we have to ban Donald Trump. We have to get rid of this man.

[Reese Oliver]

Respectable answer. I don't think you had a good option there.

[Akilah Hughes]

Yes. This is really bad. This is like, give me the option to, like, implode. Like, okay, let me end it.

[Reese Oliver]

Well, now.

[Akilah Hughes]

So good. Nuclear option.

[Reese Oliver]

Well, now we're going to give you some other option. You're going to decide for us out of our three cult categories, live your life. A watch your back or get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of Joe Rogan falls into?

[Akilah Hughes]

I think you gotta watch your back if you're gonna listen to this guy. Just, like, drone on and on. I feel like you're. That you're susceptible to being tricked. Like, you might fall in a hole one day. And this is stuff.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yep.

[Akilah Hughes]

You gotta learn to read and, like, it's not easy. Like, you gotta, like, take it one day at a time and try to make some connections. Because I think that ultimately evil is being done on this earth. And if you can't be discerning, that's a you problem. Ultimately, yes. Like, I think that Joe Rogan will always come out unscathed because there are people with nothing behind the eyes willing to carry the water for him. But, like, you might end up losing your friends and family because you followed Joe Rogan off a cliff. So just watch your back.

[Chelsea Charles]

Yeah.

[Reese Oliver]

Beautiful.

[Chelsea Charles]

Well said, Akilah. If you want any of our. Our culties to follow you, where can they do that?

[Akilah Hughes]

Well, you can definitely follow me on my Instagram. Akilah, you should definitely listen to. How is this better? Like, the vibes here are immaculate and they are very similar over on. How is this better? Every Friday on YouTube or wherever you get podcasts and I cannot recommend Twitter anymore. So I guess that's it. If you can't find me on Instagram, you I can't find me anywhere. You know what I mean?

[Reese Oliver]

No.

[Chelsea Charles]

Facts, facts. Well, Culties, that was our show.

[Reese Oliver]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Chelsea Charles]

Join us for a new cult next week and in the meantime, stay culty.

[Akilah Hughes]

But not too colti.

[Amanda Montell]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montana and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Reese Oliver and Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. Additional research for this episode by Naomi Nakahodou. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

[Reese Oliver]

Com.