The Cult of MAGA Wives

Summary

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Sounds Like A Cult

Episode: The Cult of MAGA Wives
Hosts: Amanda Montell (“A”) and Chelsea Charles (“B”)
Guest: E. Jean Carroll (“C”)
Date: September 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode analyzes the phenomenon of "MAGA Wives"—women (and, humorously, some men) who embody and perpetuate the deeply cultish and patriarchal values of Trumpism. Through a blend of sociological, feminist, and pop culture critique, Amanda, Chelsea, and special guest E. Jean Carroll explore why so many women rally behind a movement that appears to undermine their own interests, the aesthetics and community dynamics of the trad wife movement, and how cult dynamics manifest in today’s political gender landscape. The conversation is enlivened with sharp wit, pop culture references, and an engaging “MAGA Wife Mad Libs” game.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the "Cult of MAGA Wives"

[04:38]

• Amanda and Chelsea frame “MAGA wives” as women (primarily white, suburban, Christian) who perform a highly gendered, ultra-feminine, obedient role devoted to their husbands and—crucially—Donald Trump.
• The culture blends “modesty, legal impunity, and the fantasy of perfectly blow-dried patriarchy,” thriving on “high-gloss submission and curated Christian femininity and weaponized charm.”

Quote:

“They're living avatars of a far-right fairy tale where smiling obedience replaces critical thought.” — Chelsea [05:22]

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2. MAGA Wives as a Subculture and Identity

[05:52 – 13:47]

• The MAGA wives movement is more than a voting bloc; it’s an identity with cultural rituals, community, aesthetics, and a sense of belonging.
• Stats: In 2016, over 52% of white women voted for Trump, rising to 55% in 2020, despite rampant misogyny.
• Trad wife aesthetics—blowouts, bibles, and babies—flood TikTok and social media with soft pastel versions of far-right gender politics.

Quote:

“The way that I see it … these believers have thrown themselves wholeheartedly into not just a belief system, but a culture that works against their own rights and long-term interests.” — Amanda [06:23]

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3. Cult Checklist: Does MAGA Wives = Cult?

[10:55 – 12:48]

• Hosts use their “cult checklist”:
  • Charismatic, authoritarian leader
  • Us vs. them mentality
  • Exit barriers and sunk cost fallacy
  • Demonization of outside information (“fake news,” distrust of MSM)
  • Rituals (MAGA-themed gender reveals, prayer chains for Trump)
  • Culty language and thought-stopping clichés

Quote:

“You’ve got your charismatic leader, the orange messiah on his golden toilet throne… your us-versus-them mentality… exit costs… the sunk cost fallacy… thought-terminating clichés… rituals… This truly is not just a political affiliation, it's a whole culture.” — Amanda [10:55 – 12:43]

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4. Guest Interview: E. Jean Carroll

Background:

• E. Jean Carroll is a journalist, author, and the woman who successfully took Trump to court for sexual abuse and defamation.

Carroll’s Perspective on MAGA Wives

[13:47 – 16:59]

• Carroll sees MAGA wives as the latest version of traditional, patriarchal womanhood—outdated, but persistent.
• They seek power by proxy, standing by the strongman (Trump), and upholding customs that historically disempowered women.
• Carroll: “It's sickening to see. We don't want our daughters to look at it.” [15:23]

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5. Power, Proximity, and Gender Performance

[16:59 – 19:53]

• Chelsea argues these women find “power in proximity to power” (i.e., to men in authority).
• Both hosts and guest agree that this dynamic mirrors the gender structure in classic cults: a charismatic male leader, surrounded by loyal female acolytes (sometimes “trad wife” men, too).

Memorable, Humorous Quote:

“Almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife—including the men… Lindsey Graham, J.D. Vance—all of them trad wives. J.D. is the traddiest.” — Carroll/Amanda/Chelsea [18:29]

• Discussion about how the trad wife aesthetic is strictly narrow: “If you're zaftig and brunette or brown, you are not a trad wife—no zaftigs…except for Trump.” — Carroll [18:56]

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6. Engaging Across Divides

[19:53 – 22:15]

• How can one talk to a MAGA wife? Amanda suggests a combination of mirroring (“cosplay”) and gently introducing contradictions, as combative or judgmental approaches never work.
• Chelsea admits it’s hard not to judge, but “you can only hold other people accountable who you are in community with.”

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7. MAGA Wives, Feminism, and Self-Delusion

[26:46 – 30:10]

• Carroll is unimpressed by claims that supporting Trump is a feminist act:

  “You cannot vote for Trump on feminist principles... That's what's going on. The thing is, they're not vaccinating anymore and they're dieting to where they have no brain left.” [27:01]

• Amanda notes that self-delusion is “a critical mental magic trick within cults.” Performing traditional femininity becomes a point of privilege—an almost drag-like aesthetic.

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8. The Ritual of Performance & Uniform

[28:23 – 30:10]

• Carroll sees the community and uniformity of the MAGA/trad wife world as comforting for its members, but ultimately regressive and deeply harmful.
• The uniform: ultra-feminine, ultra-thin, hyper-traditional; Trump sets the tone, and conformity is demanded.

Quote:

"They are cutting medical care for their children, a woman's right to their own bodies, the education of women... and giving it all to people who do not need it, because they love a strong man." — Carroll [28:23]

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9. Satire and Subversion

[30:41 – 32:56]

• Carroll proposes a campaign: on September 16th at noon, everyone tweets humorous, light, sharp barbs at Trump to “attack with lightness and humor.”

  “If he moves to try to stop us, he looks ridiculous. If he does nothing, he looks weak.” [31:13]

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10. The Role of Women in Upholding Power and Image

[33:15 – 36:11]

• Carroll: Women are disbelieved and punished for speaking out against powerful men. Most go along until the system no longer benefits them.
• Amanda: “For them, the patriarchy works…The people who defect are those for whom it has stopped working.”

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11. Gender Dynamics, Trad Wives, and Agency

[45:00 – 47:15]

• Carroll observes, “Every man sees the woman he needs to see… Women are guilty of this; they try to fit the man's vision.”
• Usha Vance (J.D. Vance’s wife) is cited by Chelsea as an example: highly educated, but embraced a trad wife aesthetic for political optics (“no red lip, no earrings”).

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12. Humor & Performance: Mad Libs Game

[49:20 – 51:18]
A playful, cheeky Mad Libs segment with E. Jean Carroll, resulting in a satirical “MAGA Wife” Instagram caption:

“Every day, I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Hashtag beautiful tits for Trump.” [51:09]

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13. The Verdict: Cult Status of MAGA Wives

[52:36 – 54:37]

• Both hosts declare MAGA wives a “get the fuck out” level cult.
• They critique MAGA wives’ embrace of the patriarchy as logical but harmful, and argue it takes real creativity to subvert such entrenched gender scripts.

Quote:

“It is a resounding get the fuck out. What annoys me about MAGA wives is they agree the patriarchal societies are the only way society could ever exist… I don't know what kind of cognitive dissonance you have to practice to be associated with this bullshit.” — Chelsea [53:48]

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Notable Quotes by Segment

• On the cultishness of the movement:

  “You've got your charismatic leader, the orange messiah on his golden toilet throne…” — Amanda [10:55]

• On self-delusion:

  "You cannot vote for Trump on feminist principles... You are completely fooling yourself, which is a problem because that's what's going on." — E. Jean Carroll [27:01]

• On performance and conformity:

  “He set the tone first…at first I was thinking, oh, like they created this culture. But he set the tone first.” — Amanda [29:13]

• On undermining their own rights:

  "They are standing for everything we fought against. So we understand why they're that way. We understand it. And it's sickening." — E. Jean Carroll [15:23]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Cult of MAGA Wives Defined: [01:31 – 05:52]
• Trad Wife Aesthetic & Media Influence: [08:19 – 10:55]
• Cult Checklist Applied: [10:55 – 12:48]
• E. Jean Carroll Interview Starts: [13:47 – 19:03]
• Proximity to Power Discussion: [16:59 – 19:53]
• Engaging With MAGA Wives: [19:53 – 22:15]
• MAGAWives, Feminism, & Self-Deception: [27:01 – 30:10]
• Soft Power and Manipulation Analogy: [23:06 – 24:16]
• Carroll’s Satirical Campaign Announcement: [30:45 – 32:56]
• Gender Dynamics, Women as Enablers: [45:00 – 47:15]
• Mad Libs Game: [49:20 – 51:18]
• Final Verdict: [52:36 – 54:37]

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Conclusion

Final Verdict:
The “cult of MAGA wives” is, in the hosts’ and guest’s unanimous view, a “get the fuck out” cult—dangerous, misogynistic, and leveraging both overt and covert forms of influence to uphold patriarchy. Yet, by examining their aesthetic, underlying motivations, and psychological dynamics, the episode offers not just critique and satire but also insight into how and why such movements endure in contemporary culture.

Closing Encouragement:
Amanda and Chelsea invite even the most entrenched MAGA wives to “experiment with a little progressivism,” advocating creative, empowering alternatives to obedience and submission—“see how it feels.” [55:10]

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Memorable Moment:
The uproarious Mad Libs game, capped with the invented caption:

“Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Beautiful tits for Trump.” — E. Jean Carroll [51:09]

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Further Reading:

• “MAGA World is So Close to Getting It” by Tom Nichols (The Atlantic)—referenced by Amanda [54:37]
• Amanda Montell’s Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism

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Action Item:
Follow E. Jean Carroll’s substack for her campaign of lighthearted, satirical resistance.

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Hosts’ Sign-Off:
"Stay culty."
"But not too culty." [56:23]

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I think the Magiwives represent a certain womanhood that finds power in proximity to power.

[C]

That's a really interesting thought and we see that with Trump. Trump only thinks of himself and everybody around him only thinks of him. Hence basically almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men.

[A]

I love to hear it put that way and it really mirrors the gendered power dynamics and hierarchy of cults. And I love the idea that if a man ends up in that inner circle too, that he's just a trad wife too.

[C]

Lindsey Graham, JD Vance all of them trad wives.

[B]

JD is a is a trad wife.

[A]

The traddiest this is Sounds like a Cult, A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Evanna Montel, author of some books including the Language of Fanaticism.

[B]

And I'm your co host Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a student of pop culture sociology.

[A]

Every week on this show we discuss A different zeitgeisty group that puts the cults in culture, from American girl dolls to anti vaxxers. To try and answer the big question.

[B]

This group sounds like a cult. But is it really?

[A]

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out. After all, cultish influence these days falls along a continuum. And look, this word cult can mean a lot of things. It's subjective and context dependent, sometimes a little sensational, other times useful, other times cheeky and fun. But here's the thing. Often in this polarized social media fueled era, the word does nothing but trigger people, right? Like it can be used to create division during a time when we certainly don't need more of that to shut down conversations to make people feel judged. And that is not our aim here at Self. Sounds like a cult. This show, as those who've been listening for a while already know, is all about analyzing the ways cultishness shows up in everyday life. To examine the ways in which we are all susceptible to cult influence, but also to compare how not all cults these days are created equal and to have a laugh about it along the way. We're cheeky here, and we try to only get explicitly political on sounds like a cult like once or twice a year. Obviously we have our own political biases. Mine are probably evident in my books, which are written through a feminist lens of power critique. Chelsea Zenith Sorority with Kamala Harris. Hello. And we're entitled to that bias. Okay, this isn't a hard news podcast. It sounds like a cult. And that said, we do our best to both seriously appraise and unseriously poke fun at people's culty dogmas while also respecting their core humanity. So if you can handle all of that, then cozy up with a Stanley cup full of mascara coated right wing tears.

[B]

Because today we're addressing a political submovement built on modesty, legal impunity and the fantasy of perfectly blow dried patriarchy. The cult of magawives. You see, it thrives on high gloss submission and curated Christian femininity and weaponized charm. And you see, culties, these aren't just political spouses. They're living avatars of a far right fairy tale where smiling obedience replaces critical thought. And today we are honored to be joined by the legendary E. Jean Carroll, journalist, author and the woman who took Donald Trump to court and won. She better slay. But before we begin our interview, we wanted to take a moment to set the stage, because we're not just talking about a political movement here. We're talking about a full, full blown identity, an ideology and a bit of a culty fantasy. You've probably seen them on Facebook. Definitely. Fox News can't get enough of them. The women who preach trad wife values, sipping from Stanley's, standing behind their husbands in campaign rallies. They're ultra feminine, ultra devoted and ultra loyal to their men and families, but mostly to Trump.

[A]

Oof. The guns are blazing today. This script is it's giving. Anyways, let's quantify today's group in question a bit. Because the women for Trump, the MAGA wife movement is more than just a voting demographic. And while I do believe and admit that there's plenty of cultish thinking and rhetoric on the political left, look who's ultimately in power. Okay, MAGA women have clearly been able to centralize and mobilize themselves in a way that feels almost like fundamentalist religion. The way that I see it in that these believers have thrown themselves wholeheartedly into not just a belief system, but a culture that works against their own rights and long term interests, all under the guidance of a self proclaimed, all knowing demagogue and working in very effective service against a common blasphemous enemy. So here are some numbers. In 2016, over 52% of white women voted for Trump. And in 2020 that number actually rose to 55%. That's according to Pew research, despite decades of misogynist behav like as if we need to resummarize the Access Hollywood tapes, the sexual assault and harassment allegations and convictions, Trump's pro life stance, his. Well, lol, his performative pro life stance, who knows? And his fraternization with known pedophile Jeffrey Epstein. Look, we're not here to rehash election statistics or talking points, but rather mostly here to ask why?

[B]

How?

[A]

For whomstadt? Wherefore indeed, why would so many women, particularly white Christian suburban women, rally behind a man and a movement that has so openly dismissed and demeaned them? We're hoping sincerely and jokingly and sincerely, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth to understand. Sociologists have been asking these same questions too. So we'll link some of these sources in our show notes. But one explanation for why this has all gone down is that this MAGA wave movement offers a sense of identity and belonging. Like qanon conspiracy theories, it promises logic and order amid the chaos of today. Research shows that people are often drawn to authoritarian figures in times of perceived instability because it's that Illusion of protection of a strong man who can restore things into a fantasy notion of equilibrium.

[B]

And the aesthetic that we're seeing now, the blowouts, the bibles, the babies, all the babies.

[C]

Mommy, mommy, take me home.

[B]

It's not a coincidence. TikTok is literally flooded with Trad Wife content. I can't escape it. Listen, ballerina forms nars.

[A]

Me neither. And nars, she was on the news.

[B]

She was actually just on Jay Shetty. And she was like, listen, don't call me a trad wife because I don't subscribe. And I was like, oh, fuck that. Check out our episode on Trad Wives as a little amuse bouche to this episode, many of which are either directly linked to to maga influencers or carry the same undertones. Submission as empowerment, modesty as virtue, and domesticity as rebellion against modern blue haired feminism.

[A]

Oh my God, they're such oxymorons. E. Jean puts it best later. Stay tuned.

[B]

According to a 2023 study, TradWife influencers use soft aesthetics to smell smuggle far right ideology into mainstream spaces without appearing overtly political.

[A]

Oh my God. Chelsea, have you ever come across the online magazine Evie E V I E Magazine?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Basically, it's exactly a representation of what you just described. It's like Gen Z alt right Cosmo, where they have articles on like dresses to wear for spring and how to make your lashes look extra long amid full blown Dem stole the election type coverage. Conspiracy theories, super anti choice ideology baked into seemingly innocent articles about like, how to get off your birth control. It's so disturbing. It's not like a hugely subscribed to magazine, but it's trying to be. And it is this like soft, pastel feminine magazine aesthetic that represents this exact culture.

[B]

Okay, that's.

[A]

Don't Google it.

[B]

I was about to say that's disgusting, but now you've piqued my interest because I've never even heard of that. But the way you're describing it, it's like they're not even being coy about it. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Not really, no.

[B]

This isn't new either. This kind of gender performance has been part of the far right playbook for decades. From Phyllis Schlafly, a conservative activist and anti feminist in the 70s who fought the Equal Rights Amendment while baking pies, to the RNC lineup of women speakers that praised Trump as being compassionate. But in 2025, it's glossier, more Instagrammable and more viral than ever.

[A]

Okay, so not to get ahead of ourselves here. But when you run the MAGA wife movement through a GTFO level cult checklist, it's kind of check, check, check. You've got your charismatic leader, the orange Messiah on his golden toilet throne truth. You've got your us versus them mentality. Sharp division between the in group, the righteous, the chosen, the patriotic and the out group, the corrupt, the evil, the woke, the blue haired truth. You got your exit costs because if you were to leave the MAGA movement, you would alienate yourself from your family that's still deeply entrenched, including kids that you raised to believe in the deep state truth. And wrapped up in all of that, of course, is the sunk cost fallacy. Because after eight plus years of patronizing Trump merch and going on Facebook rants and ostracizing woke family and friends, cultivating a tradwife aesthetic and adopting this identity as your own, sinking all these resources into this mentality, backing down now would mean having to admit that you're in something cultish Truth and look again. It frankly sometimes does feel like the battle of the cults out there these days. But one key difference is that the left does not have a singular populist authoritarian at the helm like Trump. And that is ultimately what we're here discussing today. So moving on, there's also a demonization of outside information, distrust in the msm, the mainstream media. It reminds me of what Scientologists call black pr. And then of course thought terminating cliches and alienating buzzwords, cultish language up the wazoo, fake news, witch hunt, God put him there, do your own research. Not to mention, and this is one of the most fascinating parts to me, the rituals, the MAGA themed gender reveals, the prayer chains for Trump's legal battles. This truly is not just a political affiliat, it is a whole culture for the sorry culture. Less.

[B]

To help us unpack this glittering gaslighting archetype and the brutal systems it props up, we are joined today by a true icon. Journalist, author. Sorry, yes, yes, journalist, author. Most recently of the New York Times best selling memoir the Not My Type. One woman versus a President. She is the woman who took Donald Trump the Cheeto to court for sexual abuse and defamation and won as a voice behind the iconic Elle advice column that ran for over 25 years. An Emmy nominated writer for her work on SNL and a widely published writer across genres, her accomplishments are innumerable. May we introduce the unyielding E. Jean Carroll.

[A]

Eugene, welcome.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

We would first love to try and properly contextualize who the MAGA wives are and what they seem to represent. So from your perspective, when you examine these women, what do you perceive as their transcendent mission? Is it mostly about politics and marriage the way you see it, or is there something bigger going on in the way that they present themselves and collectively rally to protect men like Trump?

[C]

Well, I try not to look at them. I try not to be aware, keep them off my landscape. I try to ignore them. I try to not think of them. But I understand them, I think, because all we're looking at, this is not a scary thing. It's not scary. We're looking at something that women that are just simply traditional, where a man is a leader, we love a strong man. Whatever the man says, that's the truth. The man leads the family. Women come second. So what we're looking at is something that has been around for thousands and thousands of years. Why it's disturbing and so upsetting and sometimes making us want to puke and just put our hands up so we don't see it. It's because looking at them seems to set us back hundreds of years. We have the feeling that because we're looking at the past, we think we've gotten past that. But as we know, what's going on right now in politics is many of us, particularly living in the south, have no more rights over our own bodies. They're cutting, you know, the education bills. They're cutting our health bills. A woman is having difficulties now going to the doctors, but the traditional wives love it. They're standing for everything we fought against. So we understand why they're that way. We understand it. And it's sickening. It's sickening to see we don't want our daughters to look at it.

[B]

I could not agree with you more, Eugene. I want to first start off by saying I am like a hater. I love a lot of things, but I am a chronic hater. And to that same point, I hate even giving them fuel because I don't consume a lot of Magawife content. I don't have MAGA wife friends. And some would say that that is like a. I don't know. I guess I'm kind of like in my own type of, like, liberal echo chamber, but I like it this way. But to your point about these wives in association with their husbands, I can't help thinking about the ethos of traditional feminism versus intersectional feminism and how the OG feminism kind of upheld this narrow liberation of a certain demographic that didn't disrupt a certain Social order. And I think the MAGA wives represent a certain womanhood that finds power in proximity to power. And they don't give a fuck about anybody else. They just care about how they can benefit from being in proximity to these strong men.

[C]

That's fascinating. Proximity. What a weak way of thinking. That is like, the weakest. That's a really interesting thought. And we see that with Trump. Trump only thinks of himself, and everybody around him only thinks of him. Hence, basically, almost everybody in the Republican Party is a traditional wife, including the men.

[A]

I love to hear it put that way. And it really mirrors the gendered power dynamics and hierarchy of cults that we can think of from the 60s and 70s, including the People's Temple, aka Jonestown, and all the way to more recent years with nxivm. There is a man at the top, an opportunist, someone with a chip on their shoulder, someone who believes that they're entitled to a certain power that maybe they were given a taste of from birth but weren't able to actualize completely. And then their inner circle, like the second tier down, is this group of white, young, normatively beautiful women who sort of trade their sexuality and their, you know, performance of femininity for exactly what you're saying, Chelsea. A little bit more power. And I love the idea that if a man ends up in that inner circle too, that he's just a trad wife, too.

[C]

Lindsey Graham, J.D. vance, all of them trad wives.

[B]

J.D.

[A]

Is a.

[B]

Is a trad wife.

[A]

The tradiest.

[C]

Pretty soon we're going to see JD for more eye makeup in the lips.

[A]

I can see it, honestly. He has a face that looks like it could take a lot of makeup.

[B]

Oh, my God. A very beatable face.

[A]

He does. Those eyes. They're big, they're round, they're ready for a palette.

[C]

Here's the thing. If you're zofting and brunette or brown, you are not a trad wife.

[B]

That's facts.

[C]

No zoftings. Can you see any in power? Anybody who's zaftig? No, no. Except for Trump.

[A]

Honestly, Trump is injured.

[C]

My friend Jill Harth, who was a Trump accuser, she was the first woman to sue him. She withdrew the suit, unfortunately, because her husband made her do it. She is a makeup artist, and when he started running in 2015, Jill ran into him at one of his rallies, and she drew him aside. She said, donald, listen, let me talk to you. You're going way too heavy on the orange. Listen to me just for a minute. I know you look good and you look good on camera, but you got to bring down the orange, and you got to not do the contouring. We can see the contouring. And he wouldn't listen to her.

[B]

We can see it.

[C]

We can see it. Let me ask you, if you have a friend or a cousin or someone who is a Trump woman, how do you speak to her? How do you get to move her brain?

[A]

That's a beautiful question. I don't have any of those. Well, I didn't even choose it. I was born into, like, a family of communists, so. But famously, you can't change anyone's mind, so you have to sort of make them feel seen and respected enough while injecting enough glitches in their train of thought that they might be able to change their own mind. And it's not something that everyone can stomach. But in theory, if I were to go face to face, I think I would have to oddly mimic some of that culture. Right. Like, people trust people who remind them of themselves, so you have to kind of cosplay. You know what I mean?

[C]

Wow. This is interesting.

[B]

That's profound.

[C]

This is how you get to them.

[B]

To basically piggyback off of that. I 1000% agree. I think, think that it is important to meet people where they are and not come from a condescending space. That, again, is very hard for me not to do when the facts are there. It would feel too weird to be in community with those people. But at the same time, like, when you're talking about accountability, you can only hold other people accountable who you are in community with. And I actually misspoke. I do have one person. I do have one person who I am in community with, and I make it a point to listen and to try to not come across judgy. But like I said, that's. That's extremely hard, given. Yeah. Given all that we know.

[C]

Well, Chelsea, as I understand it, you're famous. You're famous for being able to produce love and companionship. You're famous for this.

[B]

You know what? You're reading me, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Because you're so totally right.

[A]

Wow. You are. You can actually manipulate closeness where it's least likely to happen.

[B]

You're right.

[C]

You're creating love. How do we get these idiots away from the man they like and towards a more intelligent view of the world?

[A]

Oh, my God, Eugene, you're such a genius. Because, okay, Chelsea is a reality TV producer. Trump is a reality TV star who's managed to surround himself by all these wives like on the Bachelor. So how do we get Chelsea to play this man's reality TV game and get all these girlies to turn away to a new suitor? This question is so good, I am flabbergasted. We have to treat it like a reality show now. This is empowering.

[B]

You're so right. Because when you talk about reality stars, a lot of people don't realize, like, it has parallels with scripted. Obviously there are parallels with the scripted world, but there are always these complex characters. Trump is what I would describe as a complex character. Right. Well, it's really not that complex. But anyway, he is a beloved villain. Okay. And so usually those are okay. This is behind the scenes, the producer favorites, because they are willing to, I guess, put themselves out there. So yeah, you bring up an interesting point because there could be something there. We just need to cultivate love with this. I don't. I don't agree with this.

[A]

We need to wait. But I'm okay. Because if it's a producer favorite, there's someone who is not like, super concerned with reputation management in terms of being like, a good person. They're concerned with being the star that the producers want them to be.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Trump doesn't have any feminist, morally centered producers, so to speak, in his inner circle. Someone needs to infiltrate.

[B]

We need to infiltrate these spaces.

[A]

Yes. Because he seems easy to manipulate. Honestly, if a producer says this will make you more of a star.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

This is so fascinating.

[B]

He's in it for the clout.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

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[B]

Okay, so we talked a little bit about feminism and we teased it a little bit so some women genuinely believe supporting Trump was a feminist act. As someone who directly challenged him, what do you make of that whole narrative?

[C]

I can't even take your words and turn anything that I can understand. Who would vote for Trump and call it a feminist act? It cannot be true. You cannot vote for Trump on feminist principles. That cannot be true. You are completely fooling yourself, which is a problem because that's what's going on. Well, the thing is, they're not vaccinating anymore and they're dieting to where they have no brain left. So of course they can't think because they're thin, they're white, they're covered in I don't know what kind of makeup they lost the use of their brains.

[A]

You're completely right. And fooling yourself is a critical mental magic trick within cults. You have to put pieces in place such that these people can fool themselves. And I think one of the ways that women for Trump MAGA wives fool themselves is through the performance of femininity that they take on as a privilege, as a joy. It's something that many of us see in our social media feeds. This high performance almost drag like aesthetic of corsets and mocktails and girly pop nationalism. How do you characterize this uniform through a cult lens? And what do you think makes it effective?

[C]

These questions stun me. You explained it at the top of your show. There's a feeling of community among them, and they cannot be outsiders in their own community. As you say, the proximity to power. It's the love of a strong man, and I'm sick of that. You know, what about the love for a strong woman? You know, your whole podcast I find gobsmacking because. Is so sickening. Because they are cutting medical care for their children, a woman's right to their own bodies, the education of women, the help to families. They are cutting it off. And when they're cutting it off, they're giving all those billions of dollars to billionaires. They're giving it all to the people who do not need it because they love a strong man.

[A]

What you said about Trump caring only about himself and everyone surrounding him, caring only about him, keeps coming back up for me here because it reminds me that he sets the standard of performance, of aesthetics, of mode of thinking or whatever. And his vibe is very, like, hyper masculine. And he speaks in this, like, rambling almost at like a fourth grade reading level, sort of like extreme, nonsensical way. Then to belong in a group that he's at the helm of, you have to fall into place. And that place means dressing like a trad wife, like you said, going on these ultra slimming diets, returning to some imagined fantasy of traditional 50s leave it to Beaver America. But he set that tone. Like, at first I was thinking, oh, like they created this culture. But he set the tone first.

[C]

Yeah, he said make America great, but America never existed. The one he has in mind is a Leave it to Beaver thing. So I want your podcast to do something about this. It's up to you.

[A]

We're trying. No, we should. Honestly, like, we're going to do more episodes like this. We are. And I'm so glad we're doing this, and I'm so glad that you're joining us for this conversation.

[C]

Well, I won't be a happy person for the rest of the day because everything's so upsetting when you think about it. It's dangerous.

[A]

It's true. And we have to find ways to stay energized.

[C]

I want everybody on September 16th at high noon Eastern time, everybody's going to tweet the same message. Okay. We're going to start attacking Trump with lightness and humor. Funny. We need to have people trust us. That's a big point. It's going to look like fun because nobody is telling Trump no, and nobody is telling Trump things that he disagrees. So September 16th, high noon. We're all going to tweet the same message. Come to my substack, Eugene Carroll, and you'll find out where to go. You have a downloadable calendar. And we are going to attack in this light hearted, evil way every day because if he moves to try to stop us, he looks ridiculous and if he does nothing, he looks weak. That's a start.

[B]

I live for this. Do not threaten me with a good time, Eugene. This is my favorite type of evil. I know a little comedy.

[C]

And we will be coming to you for some ideas for our daily message.

[A]

Oh, gorgeous. We would love to lend some copywriting consulting.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Short and clever and witty and something gets to him. Okay. And if you could rhyme it, you know, if the glove fits, you know, you gotta quit rhyme.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you. You need some couplets. Oh, God.

[A]

Iambic pentameter. Okay.

[B]

Yes, I am. We got you. Say less.

[A]

Don't threaten me with a good rhyme.

[C]

I'm telling you, you don't even have to leave the house. You don't have to donate money. You don't have to do shit except just toast on Twitter or Reddit or blue sky or TikTok. Whichever your thing is, out it goes and let's hope, build to millions and millions of people doing this every day.

[A]

The cult of the savage witticism. You don't have to pay for a SoulCycle membership. You just got to get a notebook out and start writing jokes.

[C]

That's good call to the witticism, right?

[B]

I'm crying. So, Eugene, as someone who challenged Trump directly, what is your understanding of the way these women work to protect and legitimize harmful power rather than question it? How do they do that and how do they justify it?

[C]

Well, it's not just trad wives. It's not just the cult of the Trump woman. It's every woman is fearful of coming forward or saying what happened because nobody believes her. That's why. That's very simple. Nobody believes. If you speak out against a powerful man and you're a woman, who are they going to believe? They're going to believe the powerful man. However, I beat Trump twice. The only person on the earth and I'm fucking 81 years old. So if I can do it, it's.

[A]

So galvanizing because you're. You're absolutely right. The fear of being Gaslit and being demeaned. It's so immobilizing. I feel that way, too, a lot of the time. But even, like, in this conversation right now, I feel, like, so loud because you're here. So thank you.

[C]

Is that. What should we call this uprising? What should we call it? Loud. That's not a bad term. Loud. What should we call this thing we're doing?

[A]

Yeah. I love the idea of, like, reclaiming sort of slur or criticism lobbed against women's voices. There are so many. We'll create a little list. Long list. Long list.

[C]

So that women are not believed, and not only are they not believed, they're fired. God help a single mother who has kids. She cannot come out against the floor manager of the factory where she works, you know, nine hours. She can't come out against him. Likelihood she'll lose her job. Maybe not immediately, but they'll work it out some way where she won't get the raise. So, you know, women have to calculate, do I feed my kids, or do I tell the truth about this guy knocking on me every day? So that's why women don't. And we're, as you say, immobilized from birth to believe the powerful man. Even though every woman knows underneath, we've all had things happen. Every single woman listening to this podcast. Every single woman, including those who are six years old. There's always something.

[A]

And, you know, I just. I keep thinking about how he's surrounded by these yes. People, people who don't push back to your point. And it makes sense that MAGA wives fit this profile of, like, thin, white, wealthy, et cetera, because for them, like, the patriarchy works. You're, like, not going to have to say no that much. It's not going to be as tempting. But there's a reason why people who end up defecting from cults like this. It's only after they have a problem. They have a problem that is so urgent, that is so itchy, that is so painful, that they have to say something, and that is the moment when it no longer works for them. And that is the moment when they're ostracized and they realize that it's not working anymore. Until that moment, it works. But that's not going to work for people who don't fit this profile.

[C]

Right, interesting. So if we ridicule Trump in these funny messages, will his followers start to think, it's pretty uncomfortable for me? He's really all these ridiculous things. Will he look bad? Will he look powerful? If millions are saying these terribly cutting funny things about will he look powerful anymore?

[A]

Well, a story that comes to mind is a granddaughter of the founder, founder of the Westboro Baptist Church. Do you remember they, they protest outside of funerals. They have like the signs that say like God hates facts and stuff like that. This woman, her name is Megan, she engaged in a debate with someone who was politically opposing her on Twitter and they chatted long enough that something he said was able to penetrate and she flipped. And so I feel like we don't all have hours and days and weeks and months and whatever to dedicate to one person, almost like a mentee. We don't all have that time. But if we can all by the millions gather together and use the cutting power of humor, then maybe enough people will resonate with something that said in that throng of messages that it could start to make an incremental difference. That's a hopeful idea.

[C]

I am quoting you girl. Something will resonate.

[B]

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With AG1 next gen, the Daily Health Drink. Learn more at drink ag1.com so before we get into the rest of our interview with the incredible, formidable Eugene Carroll, I wanted to share with you Colties something that happened with regard to the MAGA movement recently in my personal world that kind of made this all feel newly real in an unexpected way for me. So my literary agent recently informed me that college professors are actually becoming hesitant to put my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism on their class syllabi. This nonfiction book about language and groupthink because they fear retaliation from Trump and his administration, his supporters. As there are some moments that are critical of Trump's cultish speech in the book, I have stumbled across discourse here and there online where Some readers were wondering why I choose to include critiques of Trump in the book strategically because it could alienate some readers. And the wild thing about that is that I was actually putting finishing touches on my book cultish. After Trump's first presidency ended, and I could never have imagined he would enter the White House again. I also could never have imagined the readership that would encounter my book. I wasn't writing the book strategically at all. I was writing it out of sincere curiosity. That's what informs all of my writing projects. And so I could have never predicted a world in which, A, more readers than I expected would even find the book, B, a world in which Trump would be reelected, and C, that American universities in 2025 would be afraid even to discuss this book in the sanctuary within academia for fear of retaliation from the government. Trump has reportedly tried to have parts of the Constitution removed from the Library of Congress. He's had his impeachment removed from a Smithsonian exhibit. This level of authoritarianism and corruption is happening in broad daylight, and yet there is still this unwavering faction of men and women who defend him no matter what, particularly the MAGA wives, the enablers, the influencers. These are the ones that we're going to continue discussing today. So with that, let's proceed with our interview with the inspirational Eugene Carroll. We have a couple more questions for you, Eugene. And then Chelsea devised, speaking of humor, just the most delightful game, Ask me.

[C]

Easy questions, because those questions you've been asking are impossible. They're hard. Ask something easy, like, what are you having for dinner?

[A]

What are you having for dinner?

[C]

What should I have you tell me? I don't know.

[A]

What are you having for dinner, Chelsea?

[B]

I'm gonna do a butterbean soup.

[A]

Ooh, that's right.

[B]

With a little pesto dollops and some tomato confit. I've been planning it for three days, but, you know, I cook. That's my hobby. Amanda, what are you having?

[A]

She's a closet tradwife. Like, in the best way. Like, marry me. I don't know. I'm having whatever my husband's gonna cook. Hey.

[C]

Okay, that's good. That's good.

[A]

I'm out here, girl, bossing too close to the sun, and Casey's gonna cook. Okay, okay. You know how historically, like, after 9 11, Great Depression, la la la, conservatism was all the rage? People were like, you know what? Let's go back to some fantasy of the past. Why do you think that these nostalgic, oppressive visions of femininity resonate with women during these turbulent times, like, fine, they resonate with men. Why are women embracing them? Like, it seems so upside down and backwards.

[C]

I think you're partly right, but I think after the Second World War, women who had been in the factories returned to the home for about 15 years. And I thought, nope. And then we had Eleanor Roosevelt, we had the New Deal, Women then burst out. The call to conservative did happen. Women couldn't go to the factory and work. They couldn't do this. But they were in the homes for about 15 years, and they said, no, fuck this, honey. Fuck this. Let's get out. Because obviously, we become conservative when we're frightened, and you become progressive when you're free and you're loving life.

[A]

Ooh. Yeah. It's interesting that progress happens in good times, because then people who traditionally get to occupy rules of power don't feel as threatened. And, like, how interesting is it that we don't recognize that pattern that says something that's like a cultish pattern that we need to pay attention to?

[C]

Well, people are frightened now because Trump's told him the end of the world is coming, that we're in that America's forbidden this world and this city, he what he said about Baltimore, it's murder city. It's the worst city on earth. These are things. And those countries over there are countries, and it's all horrible. And I'm going to save you all. This is his thing. He tells you how bad it is that he's going to save you. Of course people are frightened. He's the President of the United States. He tells them to be frightened, they're going to be frightened. But liberal times are coming again. He's not going to be here forever.

[A]

Well, in cults, in doomsday cults, the rapture, the apocalyptic prophecy, it never comes. And so the people who still believe end up on the fringes. And the people who come to their senses do what people who come to their senses do, and they rejoin reality.

[C]

That makes me feel good. I'm going to go tell my friends. That's good.

[B]

Eugene, do you think men like Trump see MAGA wives as true partners in their movement or more as instruments in image management? People who help to uphold a narrative without necessarily being valued as individuals.

[C]

Don't ask me how men see women. Every man sees differently. Every man sees the woman he needs to see. If he needs to see that traditional wife, he'll see it. J.D. vance saw his wife, a lawyer and a graduate of, you know, Harvard. He saw her as a partner and she's becoming more and more trad wife because J.D. vance is seeing her that way. And I hate to say it, women are guilty of this. They try to fit the man's vision.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Sheer death. And I have been there. I have tried to make many a man happy, and I have made a couple of husbands very happy. And we had great marriages. The marriages were great. Just because a marriage ends doesn't mean it fails. So every man has a different vision, and every woman has to fit that different vision.

[B]

I agree. I have a theory about Usha Vance, though, because I feel like it is not by mistake that she showed up at the Republican National Convention in her modest blue dress with not a tinge of makeup, no red lip, no nothing. And no earrings. Even growing up in my household, that was a cardinal sin. No distracting jewelry. I think it is by design and very deliberate, because no one can tell me that an Indian American woman, child of immigrants, twice Ivy League educated, is just totally oblivious to the world that's happening around her. I think Usha is honestly, like, emblematic of what these MAGA wives represent, because I don't think they're just sitting there twirling their hairs and just acquiescing to their husband's hubris. I think that they're the ones who are captaining the ship. And I hate to even say that theory, because it then absolves these men of any type of responsibility in this whole shit. But Usha's not fucking stupid. No.

[A]

And she's participating in a sort of transaction. Do you remember in My Big Fat Greek Wedding, when the mom goes like, men are the head, but women are the neck? Mm.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Good. Yep.

[A]

It's like that. I'm so sorry. I don't know if that was a Greek accent. I love Greece.

[B]

No, that was good. That was good, girl.

[C]

You may have come up with something here. Now, this is frightening, and I'm gonna have to stand up and leave the room, because it's your podcast. You did this. You did it. Chelsea just did it. And Amanda just said I had nothing to do with this.

[B]

Okay, uh, you're going down with us. You're going down with us.

[C]

You just said, what if the Tradwives and the Trump Cult Women are running the show?

[A]

It wouldn't be the first time.

[B]

It wouldn't be the first time.

[A]

Oh, man. There's a lot of gender play in this. You know, like, they think it's so binary. They think it's so normative, but, like, there's a lot of drag. There's a lot of performance. There's a lot of, like, flipping power dynamics. It's very interesting when you think of it as, like, performance art. Like, if you strip away the stakes. It's fascinating.

[C]

For all we know, Melania is running this country.

[B]

For all we know.

[A]

Honestly, for all we know. That just goes to show. We're just speculating. We're just yapologists doing our thing.

[C]

Because he's not getting in, and he will go out and he will try to make her happy. She could be. She's smart enough running the show, and it's your fault. She could be your fault. You made me think of it. That could be. For all we know, behind the scenes.

[A]

For all we know, we know. Egene, before we start cooking dinner, we need to play a game.

[C]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

So, E. Jean, for the first time in sounds like a cult history, we are gonna play a fun game of Magawife Mad Libs. So I'm gonna give you a few prompts to create a Magawife caption for our cover photo selfie for this episode. Okay? First of all, do you consent?

[C]

I think I consent.

[A]

Okay. All right. It's not enthusiastic, but it's functional.

[B]

Can you give us a time of day? Just any time of day?

[C]

High noon.

[B]

High noon.

[A]

Next, a noun.

[C]

Orange.

[A]

Flawless.

[B]

Next, an adjective.

[C]

Delectable.

[A]

Next, a noun.

[C]

Toilet.

[A]

Love.

[B]

And next, another adjective.

[C]

Light.

[A]

Next. This is a little more than a part of the speech, but we have all the faith in you. Next is a moral lesson about submission.

[C]

Moral lesson about submission. Moral lesson. Let me see. Only the strong survive.

[A]

Perfect.

[B]

That was good. The next one, an extreme adjective.

[C]

Rambunctious.

[A]

Love it. Okay, two more. An adjective.

[C]

Beautiful.

[B]

And then the last one, A plural noun.

[C]

Tits.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

I can't wait.

[A]

I'm so excited. Beautiful.

[B]

Okay, so, Eugene, this is our caption. Every day, I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Hashtag beautiful titsfor Trump. You said that. You said that.

[C]

That's brilliant.

[A]

Oh, my God. It is. It's so great.

[C]

Say that again.

[B]

Okay. Every day I wake up at high noon to make sure my orange is delectable enough for my husband. Remember, ladies, you have a toilet, so use it. For Trump, our light leader, only the strong survive. Rambunctious family values. Beautiful titsfor Trump. End quote. E. Jean Carroll, on the ground.

[A]

Hashtag, rambunctious family Values I love. I'm galvanized. Oh, my God. Okay. Eugene, you are a legend. You are a genius. You are a hoot and a holler. Thank you so much for joining this conversation. We worship you on the level of cult leader. Can you please let our listeners know one more time about that rallying cry for September before we get off just.

[C]

E. Jean Carroll on substack, they can get the downloadable calendar and get the phrase of the day, and then we are going to attack, period.

[A]

Okay, Chelsea, it's time for our verdict. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out, which one do you think the culture of MAGA wives falls into?

[B]

I'm gonna pull a Eugene, and I'm gonna say, I don't even understand this question when it is quite obviously, get the fuck out. You already know. Come on, y'.

[A]

All. I know. Yeah, I know. And this, I am reminded, is another reason why we don't always choose to cover one of these more extreme groups on the pod. Because it, like, takes away from the point, which is, like, to a verdict, it's obviously a get the fuck out. Yeah, like a group that coerces you to act against your own interests, fall in line, say yes to everything, create enemies out of your allies and allies out of your enemies. It's just, like, so flip, flop, wackadoodle, dystopian, horrific. Sorry. It just is. You can wear red lipstick and vote for women's rights.

[B]

Okay, I agree. I think, for me, it is a resounding get the fuck out. Because what annoys me about MAGA wives is that they agree with the idea that patriarchal societies are the only way society could ever even exist. And obviously, we've seen in the early American examples of feminism, and early feminism was inspired by the Iroquois women, which they had very thriving matriarchal societies, and those women that were in positions were in positions of power and not just influenced by proximity. And so, for me, I'm just like, I don't know what kind of cognitive dissonance you have to practice to be able to be associated with the bullshit that is maga.

[A]

But, yeah, I don't know. I think ultimately a lot of his most devoted followers probably do know deep down that they've committed to someone ridiculous, and that might even make them want to double down more and become even more hostile because of the shame of admitting that you made a deeply strange choice. Actually, I just read a piece in the Atlantic about Gavin Newsom's parody tweets of Trump that kind of goes into that. It's called Maga World is so Close to getting it by Tom Nichols for anyone who wants to look it up. And this was discussed on our Incels episode too. But I think it partially has to do with like a profound lack of creativity in order to subvert generations old practices, whether they're as low stakes as, like, wedding traditions or as high stakes as the foundational system of imperialist patriarchy. You have to get a little bit inventive and it's tiring. And there are a lot of systems in place already to convince you that you don't need to do all that, you don't want to do all that. And for these magawise, they're the easiest people to convince that you don't need to do all that, that you don't want to do all that. But just get a little bit creative. Experiment with a little progressivism in your home, in private. See how it feels. See how it feels to engage with your husband in an intellectual conversation where pushback is invited. I don't know. Try it out. See how it is. See how it feels.

[B]

We invite you because it gets practice in my house every day.

[A]

I know. I was gonna say, I was like, we get a lot of practice. Oh, goody gumdrops. Well, Chelsea, you're iconic. Eugene, she's the hero. And that is our show.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening.

[A]

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.

[B]

But not too culty.

[A]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Colb. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish the Language of Of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod. Or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeaculture.

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Wow, that sounds amazing. Can I have a bite? I'm sorry, but no. But you can't split the banana split. Not even a little?

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