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The Cult of Mormon Therapists

Sounds Like A Cult

Tue Dec 16 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sounds Like A Cult — "The Cult of Mormon Therapists"

Host: Amanda Montell (with Reese Oliver)
Guest: John Dehlin (Mormon Stories podcast)
Release Date: December 16, 2025

Overview

This episode dives into the “cult” dynamics within the world of Mormon therapists: church-sanctioned mental health counselors whose work is deeply enmeshed with the doctrines, culture, and power structures of the Mormon church. Host Amanda Montell, co-host Reese Oliver, and guest John Dehlin (PhD, clinical and counseling psychology; host of Mormon Stories) unpack the intersections of religion, sexual shame, therapy, and exploitation. Using references like the Ruby Franke/Jody Hildebrandt case and Mormon-approved therapy networks, the episode explores the harms of faith-centered therapy within Mormonism — particularly its unique and sometimes cult-like approaches to sexuality and mental health.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Focus on Mormon Therapists?

[04:04] Reese Oliver:

Mormon therapists are often church-sanctioned counselors, positioned as shepherds of personal and family healing within the community—but sometimes serve other agendas.
Their influence extends even to non-Mormons via social media, creating a hidden reach.

[04:38] Amanda Montell:

This episode is inspired by recent coverage (notably the Ruby Franke/Jody Hildebrandt case) showing how a Mormon therapist functioned as a cult-like mastermind in cases of abuse.

2. Mormon Origins & Sexual Secrecy

[06:43] John Dehlin Introduces Himself:

Sixth-generation Mormon, once a tech worker, became a religious crisis counselor. Excommunicated in 2015 for his public work.

[08:49] John Dehlin:

The church’s sanitized history obscures shocking facts, especially about founder Joseph Smith (polygamy, marrying minors, potential for abuse).
Quote: “The data suggest that [Joseph Smith] was likely a sexual predator. Latter Day Saints… it’d be like saying Jesus was a pervert.” [11:23]
Intergenerational sexual secrecy, trauma, and repression lay the foundation for Mormon attitudes toward sexuality and therapy.

3. What Makes a “Mormon Therapist”?

[14:30] John Dehlin:

There’s no official label, but bishops recommend a list of “church-approved” therapists who must subordinate professional ethics and evidence-based practice to Mormon doctrine.
Quote: “There has been a formal church-approved list of mental health professionals who promise to conduct their services privileging Mormon doctrine even above their own ethical standards or the scientific literature.” [15:14]

4. Sexual Shame, Pathology, and the Gender Divide

[17:54] John Dehlin:

The Book of Mormon equates “sexual sin” as second only to murder, laying a severe guilt structure.
Church prophets historically taught “better dead than unclean,” implying women should die rather than be raped.
Quote: “It’s better to come home from your mission in a pine box than without honor, meaning having had sex as a missionary…Better dead than unclean.” [17:54]
Purity Culture: Female sexuality is erased, women serve as purity guardians; men bear the burden of lust and masturbation.
- “The most accurate way to discuss female sexuality in Mormonism is that it doesn’t exist. It’s men that masturbate… women would never even think to do anything.” — John Dehlin [19:23]
- Food metaphors (chewed gum, licked cupcake) proliferate for girls.

5. Homosexuality & Conversion Therapy

[23:52] John Dehlin:

Official church books label psychiatry as an “apostate religion” when at odds with church teachings.
Until the 2000s, BYU (Brigham Young University) practiced aversion therapy (using electric shocks to “cure” homosexuality).
- Quote: “A BYU student would go to a lab and he would sit down and … be shown gay porn … and every time he was shown an erotic homosexual image, he would be shocked.” [25:41]
- The current Mormon prophet approved the IRB for BYU’s aversion shock therapy in the 1970s. [26:23]
When conversion therapy became broadly condemned, the church retreated slightly but continued to promote celibacy, mixed-orientation marriages (gay men marrying women), or “pray the gay away.”

6. Pornography, Masturbation, and the Cult of the Cure

[30:12–32:04] John Dehlin:

The church’s obsession with stamping out pornography and masturbation—especially after the rise of the internet—ironically led to a boom in those very behaviors.
- “If you make them so stressed they can’t do it, … we all know how the brain works…Don’t think of the pink elephant.”
Mormon therapists built entire businesses, such as LifeStar, around “curing” these “addictions.” Jody Hildebrandt became well known as a referral for such cases.
- “The sickest organizations are the ones who create the disease and then offer themselves up as the cure. And that’s what Jody Hildebrandt literally was.” [32:15]

7. Case Study: Jody Hildebrandt & Ruby Franke

[33:43] John Dehlin:

Jody Hildebrandt: Formerly licensed, developed a reputation for “curing” porn/masturbation addiction, frequently recommended by bishops and church leaders (even after excommunication).
- Operated group and couples’ coaching (not under license), amassed wealth, had deep ties to church leadership.
- Quote: “By the time she’s arrested, she has a $5M home … super wealthy … made all that money not just off of [treating] porn, masturbation addiction, but being referred clients by Mormon bishops and by top leaders of the Mormon Church.” [35:29]
Pattern of Abuse: Hildebrandt pathologized all behavior, recommended divorce/separation for men who couldn’t “overcome” their “addiction,” and maintained control through deeply shame-based techniques.
Not an isolated case—many Mormon therapists have been revealed as unethical, sometimes criminal (sexual abuse, boundary violations).

8. Cult Features in Mormon Therapy Culture

[39:16] Amanda Montell:

Us vs. them mentality: therapy that’s scientific/ethical vs. therapy anchored in faith/morality.
Coercion: ethical standards get overruled by faith.
Creating the “problem” (sexual shame) and selling the “solution” (church therapy).
Power strucutres: hierarchy, referrals, skipping rank discouraged.
Viral influence: thanks to YouTube/social media, even non-Mormons can be drawn into these mindsets.

9. Aesthetics, MLMs, and Branding

[41:00–42:34] Hosts, John Dehlin:

Mormon social media/branding (e.g., matching family aesthetics, “the Utah Curl,” beauty standards) makes their brand of conservatism appealing and “electrifying.”
Ties to MLM structure: shame is the "product," with influencers recruited as top sellers (Jody as leader recruiting Ruby and others).

Quote:
“You could say Connections was a Mormon therapy MLM because Jody was at the top. She had Ruby and other assistants, always sought out influencers… and the product… was shame and specifically sexual shame.” [44:50]

10. Loaded Religious Language as Control

[49:38] John Dehlin:

Terms like “sin next to murder,” “demonic,” or “evil” dramatically heighten anxiety and obsession.
Quote: “A 12-year-old kid finds out that they’re almost a murderer already at 12….” [50:12]
Public confession (to sponsors, bishops, or group members) exacerbates the obsession and shame, fueling dependency on the system.

11. Paths to Recovery & Decultification

[53:13] John Dehlin:

Seek a licensed, ethical mental health practitioner trained in evidence-based treatment, not just a “church-approved” counselor.
The Mormon Mental Health Association (co-founded by Natasha Helfer, also excommunicated for ethical practice) provides a network of therapists who can help Mormons and others from high-demand religions.
- “The biggest thing you can do…is seek out a licensed ethical mental health practitioner who is an expert in the field you need help with.” [54:09]
- Sometimes, to “cure” obsession, the trick is to stop trying so hard not to do the thing (e.g., masturbation); pushing harder can backfire (“finger trap” metaphor).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Joseph Smith (Mormon founder):
“The data suggests that he was likely a sexual predator. … It’d be like saying Jesus was a pervert.” — John Dehlin [11:23]
On therapy’s subordination to doctrine:
“There has been a formal church-approved list of … mental health professionals who promise to conduct their mental health services privileging Mormon doctrine and theology … even above their own ethical standards or the scientific literature.” — John Dehlin [15:14]
On purity teachings and sexual shame:
“It’s better to come home from your mission in a pine box than without honor… There’s another prophet who taught: better dead than unclean. …” — John Dehlin [17:54]
On women’s sexuality:
“Female sexuality in Mormonism … doesn’t exist. … Never is it, like, 'women masturbate.' … It’s as if women would never even think to do anything.” — John Dehlin [19:23]
On aversion therapy:
“He would be shown gay porn … and every time he was shown an erotic homosexual image, he would be shocked.” — John Dehlin [25:41]
On curing 'addictions':
“The sickest organizations are the ones who create the disease and then offer themselves up as the cure. And that’s what Jody Hildebrandt literally was.” — John Dehlin [32:15]
On MLM/shame as product:
“The product of the connections MLM was shame and specifically sexual shame … and the alleged snake oil unethical cure … that becomes the equivalent of the MLM.” — John Dehlin [46:03]
On excessive self-scrutiny:
“Sometimes the solution to something is actually scaling back. … The simpler, more relaxed, more generous technique can often work much better than the harsher, more shame-ridden, constricting technique.” — Amanda Montell [55:50]

Important Segments & Timestamps

[02:21] — Introduction; sexual abuse and predatory Mormon therapists
[06:43] — John Dehlin’s Mormon and academic background
[08:49] — Mormon history’s secrets: polygamy, sexual trauma, and their impact
[14:30] — What is a “Mormon therapist”?
[17:54] — Doctrine-driven sexual shame, purity, and gender dynamics
[23:52] — Official church stance on psychiatry, aversion therapy history
[30:12] — The internet’s role in porn/masturbation panic, and the rise of “cure” therapists
[33:43] — The Jody Hildebrandt/Ruby Franke saga
[39:16] — Cult dynamics in Mormon therapy (problem/solution, hierarchy, influence)
[41:00] — Mormon branding, social media, and MLM parallels
[49:38] — Loaded language: “sin next to murder,” repercussion in mental health
[53:13] — Paths to real recovery: ethical therapy, “decultifying” mental illness
[57:13] — Resources: Mormon Mental Health Association, conclusions

“Cult Meter”: Live Your Life, Watch Your Back, or Get the F*** Out?

[59:01] Reese Oliver and Amanda Montell Discussion:

Mormon therapy is a spectrum: some are full-blown cult leader types (“get the F*** out”), others genuine helpers (“live your life”).
On average, it falls into “watch your back” territory, due to the embedded risks but recognizing that some therapy is better than none — provided you stay critical and look out for classic cultish red flags.

Conclusion & Takeaways

Mormon therapists, when enmeshed with the church’s dogma, can create profoundly cult-like, coercive, and even abusive environments—especially around sex, sexuality, and mental health.
The intersection of shame, loaded language, MLM-style influence, and internet virality allows Mormon therapist culture to have an outsized (and often hidden) impact, both inside and outside the faith.
The recommended path to “decultify” one’s mental healthcare: seek out ethical practitioners, ideally via independent associations (like the Mormon Mental Health Association), and beware of any counselor who places doctrine above evidence and harm reduction.

Resources:

Summary prepared in the original frank, scholarly-but-wry style of the episode. For further detail, listen to the full episode or explore the linked resources above.

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Transcript

Amanda Montell (0:00)

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John Dehlin (2:21)

It's almost like every month there seems to be Another Mormon therapist arrested and charged with, you know, fondling a patient, having a sexual relationship with the patient, being a sexual predator on male patients. And weirdly, people who have sexual dysfunction are often drawn to this field.

Amanda Montell (2:39)

I believe it 100% hurt people. Hurt people.

John Dehlin (2:42)

John Dehlin (8:49)

Yeah, absolutely. So when you're raised a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the LDS Church, that's how they call themselves these days, you're not told a lot about the church's darker history. You just think, oh, we love families and we love Jesus and we love helping people. And oh, we had a prophet named Joseph Smith, and he was next to Jesus, the most righteous man who ever lived on the face of the earth. And believe it or not, most Mormons are raised knowing that maybe their ancestors way, way, way back practiced polygamy, but that was done away with long ago in the 1800s, and we've stopped that. And God had his reasons, but God fixed it. And now we're just normal, all American, white bread, Donny and Marie kind of citizens. The truth is that our history is a lot more interesting and a lot more controversial and shocking than that. When I was at Microsoft in my 30s, so imagine this, I attended three hours of church every week of my life. I attended seminary for where every morning in high school before school, I do an hour of religious instruction for four straight years. I spent two years teaching the Guatemalans the Gospel of the Church. I went to byu, where I took a religious class every semester. And then I was married in the temple. In all those 30 years of being a faithful, devout Mormon, no one ever told me, for example, that our founder, Joseph smith, had over 30 wives. In fact, he had so many wives, the church doesn't know how many wives he had. But he didn't just have 30 to 40 wives. He married 12 women who were already married to men. Many of them were faithful men in the church. So why is Joseph Smith marrying women who are already married. And he also married many teenagers. So Joseph Smith married at least one or two girls as young as 14 years old. And he did most of this within the span of, like, let's say three years, from, like, 1840 to 1844. And ultimately, controversies around this polygamy led to his martyrdom. So long story short is he denied being a polygamist. He denied it to members of the church, the public, and once some of the insiders found out that he was doing it, and then he wouldn't stop. They published in a local newspaper in Nauvoo, Illinois, basically saying he's married a bunch of women. They even accused him of the equivalent of sex trafficking because he would send missionaries to England and to Western Europe, and they would convert a lot of poor young teenage girls and young women, and then they would be told go to the United States, not even speaking the language or forsaking their family. And then as soon as they got there, they would be told, well, you're assigned to this husband. And they would become the plural wives of men when they were poor and couldn't even speak the language. And this happened from 1840 up until the church would, say, 1890. But the truth is, this kept happening into the 1910s, 1915s. And so I. My grandmother, Karma Benson Parkinson, is the daughter of a third wife in a polygamous marriage. And so I knew my grandmother, and my grandmother was in a polygamous marriage. So that's how close it is to me. I'm 56. So, anyway, that's just one of the many things. And so I could say a lot of good things about Joseph Smith. He did a lot of amazing things. The data suggests that he was likely a sexual predator. Latter Day Saints. Hate to hear that. It's one of the most offensive things you could say. It'd be like saying Jesus was a pervert. You know, you just don't say things like that, especially, you know, to a Mormon. But the data show that. And it wasn't until the Internet really came online where Mormons started learning about their own church's history. Because for a couple hundred years, if anyone talked about this stuff, the church, like me, would excommunicate them. And so that's the dilemma is it's just in the past 10 years, 15 years, where Mormons are starting to learn about their own prophet, believe it or not. So now we're all just trying to pick up the mess. And the last thing I'll say is we're going to be talking about Mental health and therapists. Think about the sexual dysfunction that would come out of a people that for 50, 60, 70 years were hiding their private sexuality, lying about their private sexuality, running from the law, feeling persecuted because of their sexuality. It's dark and it's seedy and it's a horrible traumatic history, mostly for the women, but also for many men and for children. Even my great grandmothers that were in polygamous marriages, some of them have horrible stories to tell. So just think about that being the first hundred years that your church is built on. And then, yeah, the church kind of slowly, over a couple decades, kind of put it away. But just think about all the seedy underbelly of sexuality that's going to emerge in the 20th century that grows out of families that for generations were hiding and lying about their secret subversive sexuality.

John Dehlin (53:13)

Well, since a key theme for today is mental health, let me start there. So I got my PhD in clinical counseling psychology because so many of my listeners needed help with depression, with anxiety, with eating disorders, with trauma, with abuse, with scrupulosity, which is religious ocd. And guess what the church did the very same year I graduated with my Ph.D. they excommunicated. There is another therapist that Amanda, I'm guessing you met at that Rocky Mountain Sex Therapist Association. Her name is Natasha Helfer. She's been a partner of mine in many ways for many Many years. She started talking about normalizing Mormon masturbation literally in the late 2000s, early 2010s and she got more and more popular over time teaching ethical, informed, evidence based sexual health. Guess what happened to Natasha a few ago years? Years ago she was excommunicated. So, like the Mormon Church will often excommunicate public mental health professionals who advocate for ethical mental health treatment. And so I don't mean to get sidetracked about that other than to say the Mormon Church is complicit in raising up unethical therapists, nurturing and encouraging unethical therapists, and punishing and denouncing ethical therapists. So the biggest thing you can do do if you're caught in some of these negative cult cycles is seek out a licensed ethical mental health practitioner who is an expert in the field that you need help with. If you have religious scrupulosity, find an ethical OCD specialist who has a psychology degree and who is trained as an OCD specialist. If you can't stop masturbating and you want to talk about this with someone, find a PhD, the counseling psychologist who can maybe talk to you about why, if you really do want to decrease your masturbation, it's possible that the best way to do that is to stop trying not to masturbate. Because let's just say a Mormon has the goal of masturbating less. Well, guess what? You're going to masturbate less the less you're trying not to masturbate. Does that make sense?