Podcast Summary: Sounds Like A Cult — "The Cult of Mormon Therapists"
Host: Amanda Montell (with Reese Oliver)
Guest: John Dehlin (Mormon Stories podcast)
Release Date: December 16, 2025
Overview
This episode dives into the “cult” dynamics within the world of Mormon therapists: church-sanctioned mental health counselors whose work is deeply enmeshed with the doctrines, culture, and power structures of the Mormon church. Host Amanda Montell, co-host Reese Oliver, and guest John Dehlin (PhD, clinical and counseling psychology; host of Mormon Stories) unpack the intersections of religion, sexual shame, therapy, and exploitation. Using references like the Ruby Franke/Jody Hildebrandt case and Mormon-approved therapy networks, the episode explores the harms of faith-centered therapy within Mormonism — particularly its unique and sometimes cult-like approaches to sexuality and mental health.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Focus on Mormon Therapists?
[04:04] Reese Oliver:
- Mormon therapists are often church-sanctioned counselors, positioned as shepherds of personal and family healing within the community—but sometimes serve other agendas.
- Their influence extends even to non-Mormons via social media, creating a hidden reach.
[04:38] Amanda Montell:
- This episode is inspired by recent coverage (notably the Ruby Franke/Jody Hildebrandt case) showing how a Mormon therapist functioned as a cult-like mastermind in cases of abuse.
2. Mormon Origins & Sexual Secrecy
[06:43] John Dehlin Introduces Himself:
- Sixth-generation Mormon, once a tech worker, became a religious crisis counselor. Excommunicated in 2015 for his public work.
[08:49] John Dehlin:
- The church’s sanitized history obscures shocking facts, especially about founder Joseph Smith (polygamy, marrying minors, potential for abuse).
- Quote: “The data suggest that [Joseph Smith] was likely a sexual predator. Latter Day Saints… it’d be like saying Jesus was a pervert.” [11:23]
- Intergenerational sexual secrecy, trauma, and repression lay the foundation for Mormon attitudes toward sexuality and therapy.
3. What Makes a “Mormon Therapist”?
[14:30] John Dehlin:
- There’s no official label, but bishops recommend a list of “church-approved” therapists who must subordinate professional ethics and evidence-based practice to Mormon doctrine.
- Quote: “There has been a formal church-approved list of mental health professionals who promise to conduct their services privileging Mormon doctrine even above their own ethical standards or the scientific literature.” [15:14]
4. Sexual Shame, Pathology, and the Gender Divide
[17:54] John Dehlin:
- The Book of Mormon equates “sexual sin” as second only to murder, laying a severe guilt structure.
- Church prophets historically taught “better dead than unclean,” implying women should die rather than be raped.
- Quote: “It’s better to come home from your mission in a pine box than without honor, meaning having had sex as a missionary…Better dead than unclean.” [17:54]
- Purity Culture: Female sexuality is erased, women serve as purity guardians; men bear the burden of lust and masturbation.
- “The most accurate way to discuss female sexuality in Mormonism is that it doesn’t exist. It’s men that masturbate… women would never even think to do anything.” — John Dehlin [19:23]
- Food metaphors (chewed gum, licked cupcake) proliferate for girls.
5. Homosexuality & Conversion Therapy
[23:52] John Dehlin:
- Official church books label psychiatry as an “apostate religion” when at odds with church teachings.
- Until the 2000s, BYU (Brigham Young University) practiced aversion therapy (using electric shocks to “cure” homosexuality).
- Quote: “A BYU student would go to a lab and he would sit down and … be shown gay porn … and every time he was shown an erotic homosexual image, he would be shocked.” [25:41]
- The current Mormon prophet approved the IRB for BYU’s aversion shock therapy in the 1970s. [26:23]
- When conversion therapy became broadly condemned, the church retreated slightly but continued to promote celibacy, mixed-orientation marriages (gay men marrying women), or “pray the gay away.”
6. Pornography, Masturbation, and the Cult of the Cure
[30:12–32:04] John Dehlin:
- The church’s obsession with stamping out pornography and masturbation—especially after the rise of the internet—ironically led to a boom in those very behaviors.
- “If you make them so stressed they can’t do it, … we all know how the brain works…Don’t think of the pink elephant.”
- Mormon therapists built entire businesses, such as LifeStar, around “curing” these “addictions.” Jody Hildebrandt became well known as a referral for such cases.
- “The sickest organizations are the ones who create the disease and then offer themselves up as the cure. And that’s what Jody Hildebrandt literally was.” [32:15]
7. Case Study: Jody Hildebrandt & Ruby Franke
[33:43] John Dehlin:
- Jody Hildebrandt: Formerly licensed, developed a reputation for “curing” porn/masturbation addiction, frequently recommended by bishops and church leaders (even after excommunication).
- Operated group and couples’ coaching (not under license), amassed wealth, had deep ties to church leadership.
- Quote: “By the time she’s arrested, she has a $5M home … super wealthy … made all that money not just off of [treating] porn, masturbation addiction, but being referred clients by Mormon bishops and by top leaders of the Mormon Church.” [35:29]
- Pattern of Abuse: Hildebrandt pathologized all behavior, recommended divorce/separation for men who couldn’t “overcome” their “addiction,” and maintained control through deeply shame-based techniques.
- Not an isolated case—many Mormon therapists have been revealed as unethical, sometimes criminal (sexual abuse, boundary violations).
8. Cult Features in Mormon Therapy Culture
[39:16] Amanda Montell:
- Us vs. them mentality: therapy that’s scientific/ethical vs. therapy anchored in faith/morality.
- Coercion: ethical standards get overruled by faith.
- Creating the “problem” (sexual shame) and selling the “solution” (church therapy).
- Power strucutres: hierarchy, referrals, skipping rank discouraged.
- Viral influence: thanks to YouTube/social media, even non-Mormons can be drawn into these mindsets.
9. Aesthetics, MLMs, and Branding
[41:00–42:34] Hosts, John Dehlin:
- Mormon social media/branding (e.g., matching family aesthetics, “the Utah Curl,” beauty standards) makes their brand of conservatism appealing and “electrifying.”
- Ties to MLM structure: shame is the "product," with influencers recruited as top sellers (Jody as leader recruiting Ruby and others).
Quote:
“You could say Connections was a Mormon therapy MLM because Jody was at the top. She had Ruby and other assistants, always sought out influencers… and the product… was shame and specifically sexual shame.” [44:50]
10. Loaded Religious Language as Control
[49:38] John Dehlin:
- Terms like “sin next to murder,” “demonic,” or “evil” dramatically heighten anxiety and obsession.
- Quote: “A 12-year-old kid finds out that they’re almost a murderer already at 12….” [50:12]
- Public confession (to sponsors, bishops, or group members) exacerbates the obsession and shame, fueling dependency on the system.
11. Paths to Recovery & Decultification
[53:13] John Dehlin:
- Seek a licensed, ethical mental health practitioner trained in evidence-based treatment, not just a “church-approved” counselor.
- The Mormon Mental Health Association (co-founded by Natasha Helfer, also excommunicated for ethical practice) provides a network of therapists who can help Mormons and others from high-demand religions.
- “The biggest thing you can do…is seek out a licensed ethical mental health practitioner who is an expert in the field you need help with.” [54:09]
- Sometimes, to “cure” obsession, the trick is to stop trying so hard not to do the thing (e.g., masturbation); pushing harder can backfire (“finger trap” metaphor).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Joseph Smith (Mormon founder):
“The data suggests that he was likely a sexual predator. … It’d be like saying Jesus was a pervert.” — John Dehlin [11:23] -
On therapy’s subordination to doctrine:
“There has been a formal church-approved list of … mental health professionals who promise to conduct their mental health services privileging Mormon doctrine and theology … even above their own ethical standards or the scientific literature.” — John Dehlin [15:14] -
On purity teachings and sexual shame:
“It’s better to come home from your mission in a pine box than without honor… There’s another prophet who taught: better dead than unclean. …” — John Dehlin [17:54] -
On women’s sexuality:
“Female sexuality in Mormonism … doesn’t exist. … Never is it, like, 'women masturbate.' … It’s as if women would never even think to do anything.” — John Dehlin [19:23] -
On aversion therapy:
“He would be shown gay porn … and every time he was shown an erotic homosexual image, he would be shocked.” — John Dehlin [25:41] -
On curing 'addictions':
“The sickest organizations are the ones who create the disease and then offer themselves up as the cure. And that’s what Jody Hildebrandt literally was.” — John Dehlin [32:15] -
On MLM/shame as product:
“The product of the connections MLM was shame and specifically sexual shame … and the alleged snake oil unethical cure … that becomes the equivalent of the MLM.” — John Dehlin [46:03] -
On excessive self-scrutiny:
“Sometimes the solution to something is actually scaling back. … The simpler, more relaxed, more generous technique can often work much better than the harsher, more shame-ridden, constricting technique.” — Amanda Montell [55:50]
Important Segments & Timestamps
- [02:21] — Introduction; sexual abuse and predatory Mormon therapists
- [06:43] — John Dehlin’s Mormon and academic background
- [08:49] — Mormon history’s secrets: polygamy, sexual trauma, and their impact
- [14:30] — What is a “Mormon therapist”?
- [17:54] — Doctrine-driven sexual shame, purity, and gender dynamics
- [23:52] — Official church stance on psychiatry, aversion therapy history
- [30:12] — The internet’s role in porn/masturbation panic, and the rise of “cure” therapists
- [33:43] — The Jody Hildebrandt/Ruby Franke saga
- [39:16] — Cult dynamics in Mormon therapy (problem/solution, hierarchy, influence)
- [41:00] — Mormon branding, social media, and MLM parallels
- [49:38] — Loaded language: “sin next to murder,” repercussion in mental health
- [53:13] — Paths to real recovery: ethical therapy, “decultifying” mental illness
- [57:13] — Resources: Mormon Mental Health Association, conclusions
“Cult Meter”: Live Your Life, Watch Your Back, or Get the F*** Out?
[59:01] Reese Oliver and Amanda Montell Discussion:
- Mormon therapy is a spectrum: some are full-blown cult leader types (“get the F*** out”), others genuine helpers (“live your life”).
- On average, it falls into “watch your back” territory, due to the embedded risks but recognizing that some therapy is better than none — provided you stay critical and look out for classic cultish red flags.
Conclusion & Takeaways
- Mormon therapists, when enmeshed with the church’s dogma, can create profoundly cult-like, coercive, and even abusive environments—especially around sex, sexuality, and mental health.
- The intersection of shame, loaded language, MLM-style influence, and internet virality allows Mormon therapist culture to have an outsized (and often hidden) impact, both inside and outside the faith.
- The recommended path to “decultify” one’s mental healthcare: seek out ethical practitioners, ideally via independent associations (like the Mormon Mental Health Association), and beware of any counselor who places doctrine above evidence and harm reduction.
Resources:
Summary prepared in the original frank, scholarly-but-wry style of the episode. For further detail, listen to the full episode or explore the linked resources above.