B (6:03)

Thanks so much for having me.

A (6:05)

I have been a longtime fan of your work. I devoured Word by Word, which is your first book. When I was researching my first book, Word Slut, and I was like, ugh, we are such kindred spirits. But for those who don't know, could you introduce yourself and your work and your new book?

B (6:20)

Of course. So my name's Corey. I am a lexicographer that's a writer of dictionaries. I've been writing dictionaries in some form for almost 30 years, which means that I spend a whole lot of time looking at language, how we use language, how we're told not to use language, how language actually works. And my first book was about dictionaries. And this book, True Color, is also kind of about dictionaries, but it's specifically about how we came to define color terms and think of color and how color, like language, kind of defies a whole bunch of ways to categorize it. So that's what True color is about, and that's what I'm about.

A (7:00)

Ugh. It speaks to my nerdy little soul and also my culty little soul. And with that, I wanted to ask you, when I say the cult of Pantone, what immediately comes to mind as someone who's researched this hallowed institution?

B (7:16)

I think immediately of two things. I think of the color of the year, which we think of the color of the year kind of the way that if you're aware of the word of the year, you think of the word of the year. Like, this is capturing the zeitgeist. This is setting us up for the next year. It's summarizing where we've come where we're going. So I think of the color of the year, which is that's when people think of Pantone, and I also think of. And this is because of my own history as an editor, when you're working in production, I just remember being a baby editor, having to check colors against these giant fans of chips that were designers, chips from Pantone. And the way that designers would talk about these chips, like, look, these cost $900. Do not lose them. Do not mark on them. You are just checking to make sure that the color is accurate on the galley and then hand it back to me cradled in your hands like the softest, tiniest baby. And I'm not a designer, so I was just like, what? It's just a whole bunch of chips. But getting to know these giant color decks and just people's obsession about which deck do you have? Do you have this deck? Do you have that year's deck? Do you have this expansion deck? It's a language unto itself. And that's what I think of when I think of the cult of Pantone.

A (8:33)

100%. There is so much even just like, language and product on the Pantone website that I can't believe people have such reverence for. Like, that's really what makes it sound like a cult. And I think what makes it worthy of analysis on the show, to me, is that, like, even at the outskirts, from the little bit that I saw before I delved into this episode, I was just like, how does anyone worship this little cup with, like, a stupid swatch on it that says, like, elephant's tears? Like, who cares? But somehow they've, like, whipped their flock up into the state of frenzy, and I had to understand it.

B (9:10)

Oh, yeah. In 26, 2017, I think I went to my very first color conference, and a lot of the swag was Pantone swag, Color of the year swag. And it was like, people descended. And these are color professionals, right? So these are people who have lots of different options for color. But, like, everyone was like, oh, I think the color of the year was ultraviolet. And they had, like, jump drives that were in the shape of swatches, and people were just grabbing like, oh, that's the new Pantone stuff. There's something about not just the color system, which we can talk about. Pantone's not the only color system out there, but it's the way that Pantone has marketed themselves and placed themselves as sort of the arbiters of color in design and in the public consciousness that I don't Know that they set out to make themselves a little cult, little following, but they definitely have it for sure.

A (10:00)

Totally. So let's kind of dive into some of the origin story of Pantone in order to understand how. How exactly it developed this chokehold on the market. So the church of color that is Pantone, was born in the 1950s, 60s, really the 60s, as I understand it. Basically, back then, designers had no way to reliably communicate color. For example, in order to get on the same page as far as showing shades and hues, and in order to manufacture things, they had to mail pieces of fabric and be like, can you match this? The former Pantone president, Richard Herbert described it as saying, like, oh, yeah, our famous thing was cut a piece off of someone's tie and send it into the printer and say, match this color. It was very random, he said. Then came along Pantone's founder, this guy named Larry Herbert, who solved this real problem by assigning colors, numbers and formulas. Pantone started in the 1950s as a commercial printing company. Herbert invented this proprietary system for precise color matching. Bought the company in 1962, renamed it Pantone Pan for All, like Pansexual and Tone for Colors. And suddenly everyone across all industries who uses color could speak the same chromatic language. It was a revelation. Now, once Pantone created this taxonomy, this special lexicon, and once enough people spoke, it kind of felt like opting out became nearly impossible. So I was wondering, Corey, could you talk about how Pantone established this authority over color and color names, how it kind of beat out other systems? And do you think that that origin story is culty?

B (11:49)

I think the origin story is cult adjacent, cultish, because it's not entirely the whole story. So Pantone did create this proprietary color matching system. It's called the Pantone Matching System. And Pantone, Larry Herbert, using his chemistry background, did sort of figure out a way to say, okay, here's how we describe all of these colors, and here's the way that we create all of these colors using base pigments, right? So you could say cerulean is made with 10% this, 5% that, 5% this, two and a half percent that. So that is all true. There were color matching systems, systems before Pantone, and they were commonly used across industry. The thing is, they weren't very good at marketing themselves beyond their own little industries. So even the Pantone matching system began, their core colors began with the core colors of another matching system called the Munsell system. So that starts us already. You know, this idea of something Sort of being born ex nihilo and it takes over the world. It's built on a whole lot of other people's work and other attempts at creating systems of communication between different industries. Now, the other thing about Pantone is we do think of it as like the color thing, but once you start dealing with the manufacture of color and different types of colors, Pantone is not actually the thing that gets used across all industries. Pantone has a huge range of colors, but there are industries that are like, nah, we've got our own proprietary colors. Car companies, paint companies have proprietary blends of paints that they then cell that might match to a Pantone color, but are not based on a Pantone color. They're not a Pantone RTM color. So, yeah, there's certainly a mythology around Pantone and there's a way that Pantone sort of knowingly or unknowingly feeds that mythology. But yeah, the beginnings, the origins, it's like any company origin, right? Every company wants to be the one to have discovered the thing that they're selling.

A (13:57)

Totally, totally. And I actually do feel like some of the cultier, in a slightly more nefarious sense, cult brands are the ones who paint themselves as these geniuses who created something out of nothing that was totally original as opposed to just like owning the fact that, like, they're not really a disruptor, they're like kind of just in a lineage. Culties. These days, I'm all about quality over quantity, working smarter, not harder. And that is especially true when it comes to my closet. If a piece of clothing is not well made and versatile, it is just not for me. And that is why I love quints. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense for this economy. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk, and organic cotton poplin. They've got your lightweight cashmere sweaters for the changing seasons. They've got can't miss seasonal prints and colors for spring. And Quint works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're not paying for the brand markup or the fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. I have literally bought so much from Quint, including their homewares. I literally have a beautiful linen tablecloth on my dining table right now. It is gorgeous. This is not hyperbole. I am in love with Quince right now. Go to quince.com/for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it and you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Quincom Slash for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/score more with the college branded Venmo

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B (16:15)

hi, my name is Emily. I'm calling from the Bay Area in California. As someone who used to be a graphic designer, there are many culty things about Pantone. It's absolutely insane to me that one company has so much power over color across all sectors of design and that it's such a high cost to buy in the Pantone Swatch books. Go for a few hundred dollars and you have to replace them every few years because the printed spot colors can fade over time. The absolute cultiest thing is the color of the year. I used to get so excited about the Color of the Year announcements, especially because they often picked very fun and interesting colors. But after this year's Abysma cloud dancer and 2025's ugly poopy brown, the facade definitely fell away. For me, the wizard behind the curtain is simply another greedy corporation. We don't have to use these supposedly trendy colors, and we don't need to listen to their contrived reasons for selecting them for us.

A (17:12)

So I want to talk about this concept of turning color into intellectual property, because that's what Pantone did. And in that pursuit, it created almost a sacred text out of these expensive color books that has spawned culty conflict, much like how people argue over the Bible. So if it wasn't already clear, Pantone didn't just standardize color in its own way, it actually owns it. So Pantone regards its colors and formulas as its intellectual property. You can't share them freely. Instead, if you want to be an insider with this elite access, you have to pay hundreds of dollars, if not more. This writer, Cleo Levin, reporting for Slate, wrote this piece called Pantone is awful, period. And she said, ultimately it's become a way to try and make color a private business, which seems so crazy to me. Like, already privatizing something as universal as our experience of color feels like kind of culty. But then, as you already said, pinning these colors to, like, f feelings and experiences and prophecies of the future, that is so intense. Are you aware of any controversies that have befallen Pantone or that Pantone has been involved with as a result of this kind of mishmash of culty behaviors?

B (18:39)

So there's two big ones that I can think of that sort of touch on each of these things. The first with the intellectual property. And this is part of why Pantone is so ubiquitous in our minds when we think about color and you think about the industry of color, you automatically think of Pantone. Part of why that is is they did do a whole lot of work to come up with new ways to print and describe colors, which is really helpful and really useful. But then they also, because they had made that their intellectual property, and they also sort of do that for companies that come to them. So, for instance, like Coca Cola, Red is a proprietary color that Pantone has developed. John Deere Green proprietary color that Pantone has developed because they've done that with color. That also means that all of these design tools that people use and they don't think about also have to license color from Pantone. So I think it was in 2022, Adobe Illustrator and Adobe Photoshop users, these are tools, if you don't know, that are really common in the graphic design industry. And they come preloaded with this huge gamut of colors, which is really important when you're design designer. You need to have access to all these different colors. And it was the Pantone color system. There was some kind of business foofera that happened between Adobe and Pantone. And so Pantone required Adobe users to pay an additional. I think it was $15 a month to be able to use Pantone colors. And Adobe got real salty. And so they updated Illustrator and Photoshop. And the next day, designers illustrators opened up their tools to find that all of the Pantone licensed colors were black because there was no licensing. So this was this whole kerfuffle where suddenly people are like, but wait a minute, I pay an Adobe license. That's an issue between Adobe and Pantone. Now you're telling me that these 3,000 colors, I can't use, but I need those. So that was one huge controversy that came about because of the intellectual property Claims of Pantone and that was one that wasn't a thing that you think of like, oh, someone used Coca Cola red and Coca Cola sued them. That was entirely a Pantone based controversy. The second one I can think of is has to do with the color of the year. Now the color of the year, like the word of the year has not been going on forever. It started in 2000 in it's very much about feeling, it's very much about we are forecasting trends, we're looking ahead and it's about zeitgeist, it's about our collective consciousness. Right. So there's a whole lot of mystical woo, you know, going on when you're communicating about this mystical woo messaging that

A (21:28)

I'm telling you is like almost not to you, but for the average person is almost indistinguishable from a Keith Ranieri quote. I swear to God.

B (21:35)

Yes, it's true. Yeah, it's true. But it's also color marketing and color forecasting in general is this very weird blend of economics, of fashion, of forecasting, of marketing, of psychology. There's all these things that play into it because what you're trying to do. Yeah.

A (21:55)

All I've heard a lot of art described as a dubious art.

B (22:00)

Yes. Yeah. And it is a dubious art. Pantone has had some color of the year missteps before. I believe their color of the year for 2021. So we're smack in the. It means they're announcing it in December of 2020. Smack in the middle of the pandemic was a gray. Everyone was like bad year for this very romper. Dull, horrible color that reminds you. It's like funeral adjacent color. Right, Exactly. So no one predicted a pandemic in 2020. No one did that. So I think they kind of like had to race and like.

A (22:41)

Oh.

B (22:42)

So then they re released where they also co released a second color of the year that was like this highlighter yellow and it was just like ah. Which also damaged like caution tape. Yeah, but it looked like caution tape. Right. You're just like, everything looks like it's on fire and dead. So they've had missteps. But there was one year 2017, where I think the Internet just got fed up with the idea that this was just all vibes and just connection with people and community. They released a green that I think was just called Greenery and TikTok Instagram. A bunch of people were like, okay, A, no, stupid. B, what are you doing? This looks like a cash grab because at the same time Android was pushing back against the. I'm sorry for those of you who don't pay attention to your cell phones enough like the rest of us, but if you have an Android phone and you text someone with an Apple phone, Apple's text bubble is blue and Android's is green. And there was a period of time where it was unfashionable to have a green text bubble. Android was pushing back against this. Google was trying to make green happen. And a whole bunch of people on TikTok and Instagram were like, well, this is clearly a ploy to get us all okay with Android. And Pantone said, you know, no, no, no, no, no, of course not. That's ridiculous. But when you're only casting into the universe vibes, then those vibes can be shifted depending on the mood of the recipient. So if you're not saying we're forecasting green for this year because we're seeing a rise in environmental concerns, or we're seeing more people going outside and that makes us think, if you're just saying this is about lush living and this is about communing with one another and with nature and fresh spaces, that's open to interpretation. And if people are like, also, green is the color of money. Yeah, you can't get around that.

A (24:44)

So it's so true. I think a the fact that Pantone has this air of secrecy and exclusivity surrounding its secret sauces and its proprietary system, whatever. And the fact that it does purport to be this kind of like diviner of trends in this almost godlike way. You know, you said like no one predicted the pandemic, but there are all kinds of culty astrologers and conspiracy conspiracy theorists who would say that they did. And there is kind of an astrologer conspiracy theorist energy to Pantone, but that attracts similar sort of conspiratorial thinking. And there are so many controversies that Pantone has encountered because of all of this. Speaking of like that TikTok stuff, I think what made TikTokers. So I'll just explain exactly like you're saying in 2017, TikTok exploded with these sort of like call outs that Pantone was secretly aligning its color of the year picks with corporate interests, all the while positioning itself as this morally superior, high art, vibes driven, genius driven institution which felt hypocritical. Not only did that Pantone greenery shade seem to be like a promo tactic for Android in support of the green text bubbles, which like green text versus blue text, this is whole like Other corporate culty war. But also Pantone was alleged to be aligning secretly with companies from Yelp to Delta Airlines to Airbnb to Apple. And you're spinning a lot of plates when your Color of the Year pick is supposed to like, earnestly capture the zeitgeist, get that bag by, you know, secretly partnering or co conspirating with corporations. And that has led to a lot of Color of the Year controversies. Do you remember the period blood instance?

B (26:47)

Yes, I do. Oh boy.

A (26:50)

It was 2020. So it was like either pre pandemic or pandemic era, basically. Pantone partnered with the Swedish based brand Intimina to create the color period, which seemed to kind of be angling at destigmatizing menstruation, but was not appreciated by many consumers. Many of the artists who make up Pantone's most devoted followers, for example, the Argentinian artist group Chromo Activismo, responded by saying, how can we think that the shade period red can universally represent our menstrual palettes? We feel the need to say once more that we do not need the support of a global capitalist company that turns color into private property, a standardized merchandise. So I'm curious. Like in cults, secrecy is often framed as kind of transcendent wisdom. But how do you think that Pantone's opacity, haha. Makes it sometimes kind of toneless, haha. And culty in a bad way. Especially during an era when consumers more than ever appreciate authenticity and transform transparency over polish.

B (27:58)

Yeah, this is always a tricky thing with any kind of proprietary event or thing. For me, the color of the year and the word of the year. I was involved in choosing words of the year for thousands of years since gauze is in short pants. So I know the mechanisms behind how you find a word of the year, what you're trying to communicate, what you're not wanting to lean into. Right. There's a whole lot you get in your head and you want to be forward thinking, but you don't want to make a political statement. You want to make sure that you're encompassing as much of the zeitgeist as possible. But you don't want to be depressing, you don't want to seem flip, but you also don't want to always have the word of the year be fascism or democracy or, you know, so I understand it is a marketing game that is trying very hard to settle itself as a cultural arbiter somehow. So I say that as someone who understands the difficulty of trying to pick, pick something Like a color of the year or word of the year. But the thing with Pantone as well, that gets trickier is that they choose their colors of the year well in advance, because the whole point of the color of the year is they build palettes around it. And if Pantone is the king of color, then you have to orient your entire product base around what their color of the year is going to be. Color forecasting for fashion runs 18 months to two years behind where it shows up, because that's just what the supply chain requires. So if your hot new color is brat summer green, well, that has to have been put into production a year prior. That has to have already been put into the sales chain six months before it shows up. So Pantone is trying really not just to sell a palette, but they're trying to do it in a way that makes it seem like it's a natural extension of what's happening right now, right in the moment. And they. That gets tricky. You have to get into sort of this very high level, not very detailed, very vibes oriented kind of conversation to sell your color. This year's color of the year, Cloud Dancer, was a big old stinker. Nobody. Nobody liked it. For those of you not aware, Cloud Dancer is an off white. It's just a white. White. It's white. I knew it came out because I started getting texts from people who were like, what do you think of the

A (30:24)

color of the year?

B (30:24)

And I was like, I'm asleep, I'm getting coffee. I don't know what the color of the year is yet.

A (30:30)

It's 6am Like, I can't deal with this right now.

B (30:33)

But yeah, some of us need to walk the dog, Barbara. But people were like, okay, a white, not a color. Which, I mean, we could argue whether it is or not. We think of white as a color. We use the word white to refer to a color. But the other thing was, you know, people are like, in the year of our Lord 2025, when ICE is targeting people and when we seem to be in an ascendant authoritarian regime that values whiteness as. As a racial characteristic of, you know, superiority. And all of a sudden, here's Pantone coming out with a white. I heard from folks that were like, cloud Dancer feels kind of appropriative of native people. That sounds like, oh, you're sitting Elk and Cloud Dancer, you know, so just nobody liked the color. And the thing that's so funny to me is people didn't like the color because of the vibes put forth by it. It was like if they had chosen another color, blue or gold. I mean, it's because of how they framed it. It seemed very tone deaf. This very sort of light, ethereal. We want a blank slate. And it's like, yeah, but maybe not like this. Maybe not in this. Like, oh, we're just all, you know, it's just this lovely linen and denim and free air kind of vibe. It's like that's not the vibe on the ground for 90% of people in America right now. This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge.

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Selection varies by location. Soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. The cultiest thing about Pantone is the Swatch book. It's basically a holy text for designers.

A (33:12)

It's expensive, guarded, and treated with total reverence. If it's not in the book, it might as well not exist.

B (33:18)

I'm an illustrator and designer and I it still blows my mind how seriously they're treated. Color used to be intuitive, and now

A (33:25)

it feels like you need to consult

B (33:27)

scripture before choosing a shade. Pantone didn't just organize color, they turned

A (33:31)

it into a doctrine. So, yeah, Pantone definitely sounds like a cult. I want to continue talking about Cloud Dancer. This, as you mentioned, was selected in December 2025 is the 2026 Color of the year. I came across a piece in the Guardian, kind of breaking down the Cloud Dancer controversy, a piece by Chloe McDowell where she gathered a bunch of, you know, reactions from the public about it. One quote said that they felt that Cloud Dancer. Well, first of all, Pantone, exactly to your point, claimed that Cloud Dancer, which is literally like it could not be more plain. It's not even like a fancy white. It feels like Turboplane. They said that it was a symbol of calming influence in a society rediscovering the value of quiet reflection. It's bananas to me that they don't necessarily have like an emergency backup, considering that they have to plan so far in the future, because boy, oh boy, did this fall worse than flat. The backlash was swift, and some of the quotes that Chloe McDowell gathered for the Guardian were along the lines of, you know, quote, it feels like a eugenicsy move. It's impossible to separate politics from fashion. Another quote went further, calling Cloud Dancer quote a white supremacist dog whistle, the uncanny veneers of a Fox News broadcaster. Other quoters had comments about the sense of conformity it seemed to encourage. Someone said, we're all being told that we need to look a very specific way and that this specific style is the most aesthetically pleasing. For me, it feels like a stripping back of any individuality. And that's really depressing to think about. And then another user said, curiously, Pantone's positioning of Cloud Dancer also reads as a nod to generative AI. They've called it a blank slate and a shade that opens the door to increased imagination and innovation. This is eerily similar to language used to persuade us to buy into AI tools that actually chip away. Haha. Another pun at our creativity and critical thinking. So my question for you, Corey, is, ironically, Pantone did seem to kind of capture the zeitgeist with this color choice, but not necessarily how they meant to. What do you think the Cloud Dancer scandal in particular says about the cultishly polarized times we're living in now?

B (35:45)

Overall, you know, I think what's interesting about the controversy over Cloud Dancer is it feels to me similar to controversies over various words of the year, the way that different words of the year hit, but a little bit more deeply felt. So in that sense, Pantone did what they needed to do, which is to have you associate this color with a deep feeling. Right. And yeah, and like, there it is. That's what that did. Not in the way they wanted you to think about it, but, you know, it definitely made you feel a thing. Whether that thing was disgust or anger or calm or whatever, you felt a thing. The other thing that I think about with the Cloud Dancer controversy is language, like color is so powerful because it's associative. Right. We associate different types of language with. With other uses, with other people. And you associate color uses the same way. Right. So for, you know, sort of the classic thing of like, you don't wear red to an American wedding because we associate red in America with loose morals. Women of the night.

A (36:58)

Oh, my God. That's so funny because I literally did wear kind of a.

B (37:03)

Did you wear red to a wedding? Yes.

A (37:06)

But I was actually trying to communicate loose morals subconsciously. There you go. So I think I did that. And it had a really low back. Wait, I'm so dead. I wasn't even aware of what I was doing. But I was trying to send a message, I think. Not explicitly, but I'm gonna be thinking about that for the rest of the day. Oh, my God.

B (37:25)

You would have fit in totally great in weddings in a bunch of Asian cultures, like Japanese culture or Korean culture, where you don't wanna wear white. Cause white is a funeral color. Color, don't wear white.

A (37:36)

Right.

B (37:37)

So we have these very close associations between color and things and words and things. And the problem with Pantone is they're trying to take a color which has a bunch of associations, and they're trying to pair it with these words. And they're color people, but they're not word people. So I read the Cloud Dancer press release. Just kind of cringy because I was like, I know how this is going to be. I know how that phrase is going to sound to people. The blank slate in particular. I was like, oh, no, no, no.

A (38:07)

It's like, I don't see color. Yeah, it was like very giving that. Right.

B (38:12)

Or the idea of. I mean, one of the other critiques I heard was that phrase blank slate was sort of received as. Let's just forget about all the things that have been going on and let's just start over. And that's the thing is when you're trying to, like, get the zeitgeist. The problem with trying to get the zeitgeist or sort of make a big cultural statement is culture, as you said, is highly polarized at this particular point. They're not trying to thread a middle way through right and left people of color, white people, Karens and activists, like all of these things that, whether they've meant to be moved further apart or not, are perceived as or have moved further apart. Threading that middle way doesn't look smart. But also, as a company, I know what would have done it.

A (39:05)

I know what would have done it. They could have had the exact same color and they could have called it hockey. Ice rink and the heated rivalry, people would have loved it. And the gay hockey people would have loved it.

B (39:17)

Yeah.

A (39:17)

No, I don't think you could even call it gay hockey. I think you could call it. Yeah, Ice rink.

B (39:23)

Just call it ice rink.

A (39:24)

Ice rink.

B (39:25)

Ice rink.

A (39:25)

Ice rink.

B (39:26)

That's free. Pantone.

A (39:27)

The gays love it. And now I know Pantone. Thank you. I will invoice you for my consulting later. That's what you have to do. You have to find. This sounds like a fun challenge for me. This actually sounds like a board game I should invent. You have to, like, find a term, a metaphor that means the exact thing that people want it to mean to everyone, which is what a horoscope is. Basically. Pantone was a bad horoscope.

B (39:52)

I mention this in the book when I talk about the idea of naming colors, because traditionally, like a Pantone deck, if you're a designer, Pantone doesn't use colors. And that was kind of. For a lot of designers that I Knew in the 90s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, it was like, a sign of your chops. If you could be like, oh, that's pantone, you know, 217B. Like, you know, it was just. Pantone, notoriously did not name their colors. And Leatris Eisman, the head of their color marketing and color forecasting service, wrote in one of her books that the reason why you don't name a color or if you want to evoke a different feeling, you don't need a new color. You just need a new name. So brown is not going to sell nearly as well as chocolate, because chocolate sounds luxurious and indulgent.

A (40:40)

Yes.

B (40:41)

And burnt sienna is only gonna sell to artists or people who think of Crayola. But if you call that cognac, well, now, suddenly, that's a high fashion term. Right. So even the way that Pantone names their colors, it's not just meant to evoke a feeling, but. But there's something that's called fancy name effect with color, where the sort of more fanciful the name, the higher value it's perceived within marketing circles. So it's sort of like cranberry is going to be a L.L. bean, Lands End kind of color, but that same color called Merlot is going to be. Well, now we're moving up into, like, the Zara. And then there was one company that I was following their color naming patterns for a couple of years, and they had one year where they had five colors. They had a white, a black, a brick red, a bright yellow, and, like, a sky blue. The white was called something like void. The black was called something like flat. The yellow was called brick. The red was called canary, and the blue was called, like, 17. Oh, my God.

A (41:51)

Okay.

B (41:52)

But also. But it's like, okay, all right. Yeah, but this was the thing. It's, it's taking the fancy name effect to the extreme.

A (42:01)

Like, to the next level. Yes.

B (42:03)

You want to dress in canary that will be red. Like, like, what are words? What is mean?

A (42:09)

It's like, totally. It's fascinating because, you know, obviously the Pantone, as opposed to a cult brand like Ikea, is quite elitist. It's a little pretentious. It's not for everybody. Some cults, whether we're talking about light hearted cults, cult brands, or serious cults, are more populist. They're trying to recruit everyone, like evangelicalism. But some cults are trying to remain exclusive and fringe, like the Bohemian Grove, because, like, cult leaders and people with cultish leader y ish inclinations seek the type of power that they think they can get. So, like me personally, with my background and my disposition, I'm not gonna start a softball sorority

B (42:59)

type cult.

A (43:01)

You know, like, I would start the cult that, like, aligns with the type of people that I think I would attract. And that's obviously what Pantone has done. But I actually think that Pantone's strategy has aged less like Merlot and more like milk or whatever, more like void because simply of how our broader culture has become more crisis ridden and polarized and desperate for someone just to tell us the truth. And I think that has really clashed with how corporate and performative and grandiose and thus controversial the Pantone Color of the Year has become. First of all, like the color of the year. Baseline to me feels kind of like a cult ritual. You know, like every cult has like that annual thing that the people look forward to, whether it's like the Mary Kay Career Conference or the Taylor Swift tour Don't Come for Me or, you know, whatever, the tent revival. And for Pantone, that's color of the year. And I have noticed just even through combing through the press releases, how much loftier and more highfalutin and how much bigger the promises of the Color of the Year have gotten. For example, I was reviewing, you talked about this, the ultraviolet Color of the year from 2018. Pantone claimed that, that, you know, purpley color invoked Prince, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix. But also they were like throwing words in there like acai and mindfulness and the cosmos and. And it was very much giving like goop five years ago or whatever. Like, it was just like throwing a bunch of buzzwords out there. But they were all fairly innocuous. But then we had period blood or whatever and Then we had Cloud Dancer and it's all just starting to feel messier, it's starting to feel cultier, and I'm fascinated by that. So another cult quality that we like to analyze this show is like exit culture. One of the ways that you know you're in a more destructive cult rather than a harmless cult is when they make leaving kind of hard. You mentioned before that Adobe Hullabaloo, where Adobe removed the Pantone colors from its products and suddenly people were left high and dry. As I mentioned, you know, in plenty of cult dynamics, leaving is technically allowed, but socially costly. Do you think Pantone's power persists because it's really that useful or because it feels too hard to opt out?

B (45:40)

I mean, I think it's a little of both, actually. I think at this point it is really difficult to opt out of using Pantone colors, if only because, let's say I'm starting a company and I come up with a logo and I want this logo to be red and I make my red logo and I go out in the world and then I get a call from coffee and Coca Cola's legal departments like, hey, we're going to send you a cease and desist because your logo is a little swoopy thing that looks kind of like our logo. But more importantly, we have rights to using that color. This is a thing that happens all the time. So all of a sudden, even if I don't know what Pantone is, suddenly I have to be aware of the fact that this particular color might be licensed and owned, might be the intellectual property of another company. And the people that those companies tend to work with are pan. Because Pantone is huge. Like it's sort of the big design industry standard in America. Again, there are different color services and there are different color forecasting groups. So they're not the only ones out there, but they are the biggest. So that makes it hard to opt out because they're the biggest. And part of why they're the biggest is not just because they were smart about how they got into the design market. I mean, honestly, if you're going to try and corner a market that is heavily design based, absolutely, go for designs. That's very smart. But the other thing is that Pantone has increased its physical size by being acquired by and acquiring other companies. So we think of Pantone as sort of this one thing, but Pantone actually has in its group a whole bunch of other companies that also do color measurement, color forecasting, color standards that you have never heard of up before, like you've never heard of any of these companies. But if I'm a person who is doing color grading, let's say, and I am looking at the color of beer, I'm measuring the colors of beer because we know that beer that's this yellow is perceived as being better value. And if it's darker, if it looks off or it looks green, it's not going to whatever. This is the thing that sounds ridiculous. This is actually a thing that, that any kind of mass produced thing goes through is you is color matching. It has to look like the right color. It has to look like the color it's supposed to be. So if I want to color match my beer, I'm probably going to go to a place like X Rite. Let's say it's a company that produces color standards and I'll say, hey, I need a color standard for beer. And they'll say, great, we'll produce that. Well, X Rite is part of Pantone. Or let's say that I am trying to do color education and I want to get a proprietary set of pastels for my students that are focused on like I want a CMYK pastel set and then I want flashlights that are red, green, blue so that I can teach additive and subtractive mixing to my students. Great. So I'm going to go to a company that's not Crayola because I can't afford Crayola. I'm going to go to someone at Danaher and say, I need these. I'm going to be like, great, here it is. Danaher is part of Pantone. So it's sort of like, even if you're not aware of it, Pantone and it's its subsidiaries and the companies that make up the Pantone universe kind of are everywhere in color. So it's really difficult to not use a Pantone product at some point in the production chain. It's just really difficult not to. You can decide not to, but then you run into possible, you know, is this accurate? Is my scale accurate? Have I used a proprietary color that I'm not supposed to. If I'm going to use Adobe Illustrator or Adobe Photoshop, I'm using the Pantone color set and I can load a separate color set for free, but I have to go find it and I have to download it and I have to convince my clients then that this color set is just as good as Pantone because my clients have only ever heard of Pantone. So there is an exit cost. You can leave, you can say I'm not using Pantone. And lots of places decide they're not going to, but there are consequences.

A (49:52)

Wow. You know, it's super interesting because when that whole Adobe thing went down, an artist created an alternative palette that he called Free Tone, this artist named Stuart Semple. It was this whole thing. Pantone's president at the time responded calmly to the whole controversy with a soundbite that I think he thought ate, and he was like, nobody has to use Pantone. It became a de facto standard because it worked the best. And while that might be true, I couldn't help but notice that it's also what every enduring culty belief system has ever said. Like, you could swap in the word Christianity for Pantone. You could swap in the word capitalism. Like, they're just the things that have taken over. Nobody has to use Christianity. It became the de facto standard because it worked the best. It's wild. And, like, the consequences have been expensive and dramatic. I did read in the Slate article that I quoted earlier by Cleo Levin that that Pantone system has become the basis for plenty of lawsuits and that Pantone actually makes it easier for corporations to sue others for trademark colors. For example, Hershey has sued Mars over orange, Louboutin has sued Yves St. Laurent over red, and T Mobile has sued pretty much everyone over magenta.

B (51:12)

Yes, they have. Yeah.

A (51:14)

It just allows more culty conflict between corporations, which feels really dramatic and hostile. I don't know. Like, yeah, the stakes get high.

B (51:25)

Well, I mean, for corporations, it's money. You're paying Pantone to develop a color for you, and someone else is using that color. I mean, where I used to work at Merriam Webster, Merriam Webster has a proprietary red. And there were times when other companies would create reference books that used a similar format and used a similar red. And there. That was a concern. Right. So for companies, and it's kind of. This is where the crossover between the corporate uses and the color of the year uses happen, is that a company is trying to build a brand which produces a feeling in people. And if they can do that with a particular color, that's the color they're going to use, and they want to own that color. So, I mean, if there's any cult behind it, it's the cult of capitalism. It's the cult of making money.

A (52:13)

Only in America could color become a cult.

B (52:16)

Y in that way. In that particular way, yeah. So it is interesting because you do have this overlap then of the, like, vibes and money. And when those two things cross, it's always going to get messy. It's just always going to be a mess.

A (52:33)

That is exactly the summation. Okay, Corey, I want to play a game with you.

B (52:43)

All right.

A (52:44)

Sounded distinctly like the guy in the movie Saw. I don't mean it that way. Right. There's no death.

B (52:52)

You're not in my room. We're okay. Yeah, I'm safe.

A (52:55)

So totally weak. This is a safe space. You're safe. Ultimately. But I do think this game might end up being psychologically more harrowing than it might appear. The game is called Culty Quotes, and it's played like this. I'm going to to read you a series of quotes that were either said by notorious cult leaders from history or they were pulled from a Pantone Color of the Year press release. And you're going to have to guess which is which. Was it a cult leader or was it a Pantone press release?

B (53:26)

All right, let's do it.

A (53:27)

The first quote goes like this. Choosing rest and consciously stepping away from relentless demands and turning inward recognizes that true strength lies not just in doing, but also in being.

B (53:39)

Pantone.

A (53:40)

Correct. That was from the Cloud Dancer press release at the end of 2025. Next quote. When we smile, the world smiles with us. Each experience of joy is an experience of joy for all people and a victory for humankind. Ooh.

B (53:56)

Cult leader.

A (53:57)

That is correct. That was Keith Lanieri, the leader of nxivm. The next next quote goes like this. The act of kindness is such a powerful weapon that it is endless in its scope. You can never run out of kindness. Kindness is the supreme gift of the elevated person. It is the beauty of the beauty of the beauty.

B (54:16)

Cult leader.

A (54:17)

That is correct. That was Yogi Bhajan, the founder of the Happy Healthy Holy organization.

B (54:23)

Next quote.

A (54:24)

The everlasting search for harmony filters through into every aspect of our lives. Lives, including our relationships, the work we do, our social connections, and the natural environment that surrounds us.

B (54:35)

Pantone.

A (54:36)

Yes, you are absolutely correct. That is from the press release for the 2025 Mocha Moose announcement. Two more quotes. The next one goes. Is it better to live in a world where everyone is happy all the time, even if that happiness is artificial? Do you wish for world peace and happiness all the time? Are you sure?

B (54:54)

I'm gonna go. Cult leader.

A (54:56)

That is absolutely correct. And that is Elon Musk.

B (54:59)

Oh, God. Indeed. That also makes sense. Yes.

A (55:04)

Yeah, it does. And the very last quote goes like this. We are living in transformative times. As we emerge from an intense period of isolation, our notions and standards are changing. And our physical and digital lives have merged in new ways.

B (55:18)

Oh, Pantone.

A (55:20)

Ding ding, fuckity ding. That is absolutely right. That is from their 2022 announcement of the very Perry color of the year. Okay, all right. You were exceptionally good at that. But I just have to say I was stupefied when I started combing through these Pantone press releases because they're so grandiose and prophetic. Like, what the fuck?

B (55:45)

Anytime I read a Pantone color of the year press release, I'm always reminded of a quote that the head of their color marketing service, Leotris Eisman, said in a little workshop I did with her where she said, remember that what we're selling is not necessarily a color. We're selling a feeling. And that just anytime I read a Pantone thing, I'm like, yep, you're tapping into a feeling. You're not trying to sell mocha mousse, which is not even called mocha mousse, like that. That's the name they give it for the color of the year. It's a PMS number with, you know, 107C or something like that. But when you're selling a color, what you want is to connect with the feeling. You want people to see this brown that at the time when mocha mousse came out, everyone was like, that looks kind of like poop. And everyone. No, no, no, no. It's luxurious. It's a sense of coziness and well being. And you're painting a whole tableau so that people will.

A (56:43)

You're world building.

B (56:44)

Yeah, absolutely. So people will buy whatever. A coffee cup up in mocha mousse or set of pencils in mocha mousse or a blouse and tone.

A (56:53)

The ultimate spin doctors, I tell you.

B (57:02)

Hi, my name is Sophie and I live in New England and work as a color chemist. The cultiest thing about Pantone is how expensive the guidebooks are and how often you're supposed to replace them. Small manufacturers like the one I work at can't afford to drop thousands each year on new guides. And you can't just replace the damaged pages.

A (57:19)

Okay, Corey, I have one final question for you, and it's the most important one of the day out of our three cult categories. Live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of Pantone falls into?

B (57:36)

Ooh, that's tricky. Honestly, I think it's a live your life unless you own a company, and then it's probably watch your back. But for most people, again, most people, when they Think of Pantone, they think of the color of the year and you can have a strong reaction to that and be like, I hate Cloud Dancer, I hate greenery, I hate Mocha Moose. I think Mocha Moose is racist. I think Cloud Dancer is racist. You can say whatever you want, but it's not like when you boot up your computer it's all going to be in grayscale because you have bad mouth. Pantone, it's a live your life. If you're a company though, and you're interested in using color to communicate something, it might be a little watch your back. I'm not going to say that Pantone is the only color forecasting company or the only company you can use. I mean, honestly, most major manufacturers have their own in house color team, right? Nike has its own color forecasting team that sets the palette for the next next seasons. Apple has its own color marketing team that basically decides what all Apple products are going to be. Everyone has an internal team. Pantone has the mystique of sort of finger on the pulse. Look at what we did with Coca Cola, look at what we've done with John Deere. I mean, and that's tempting. So if you're a company and you're deciding like, meh, I'm not going to use Pantone, I don't think that's a bad thing. But you do have to be aware that that Pantone owns the industry at this point. And so you just have to like cross your t's, dot your eyes. But for most of us, live your life like Cloud Dancer. Hate Cloud Dancer. Paint your house pink. I don't care. No, no one cares. It's fine.

A (59:21)

For sure. No, I completely agree. I think at the end of the day, even though people are worshiping at the altar of the stupid books of colors and I'm annoyed by many of Pantone's antics, it's not like traumatizing anyone. Like, yeah, it has low key, a monopoly, but everyone's kind of fine.

B (59:43)

Yeah, yeah. And also if you decide that you want nothing to do with Pantone, the best thing you can do is just anytime you see a color anywhere in a store, on a shirt, whatever, just think to yourself, someone chose that color and I can choose not to like it. And that's all you gotta do.

A (60:04)

Thank you so much, Corey, for engaging in this sensationalist conversation with me. I had so much fun. If people want to keep up with you and buy your book, where can they do that?

B (60:16)

You can buy my book at any bookseller that you so desire. I personally like bookshop.org the title again is True Color the Strange and Spectacular Quest to Define Color from Azure to Z Pink. I'm on Blue sky as Corey Stamper with K and Y and I do have a blog that I occasionally write very occasionally@corystamper.com Love that.

A (60:43)

Well, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime stay culty

B (60:50)

but not too culty. Foreign.

A (60:59)

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel. Our Managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out out my book the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse oundslikeacultpod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeaccount cult. Two Good and Coffee Creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving.

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