Chelsea Charles (2:14)

And I'm your co host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and lifelong student of pop culture sociology.

Amanda Montell (2:21)

Every week on the show, we discuss a different face fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist from sleepaway camp to incels to try and answer the big question.

Chelsea Charles (2:32)

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

Amanda Montell (2:41)

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out. After all, cultish influence falls along a continuum these days. And the word cult can mean something different depending on the context. Sometimes we use it in a cheeky way, and sometimes it gets a little bit more serious than that. But the point is, in 2026, cultish influence doesn't always show up in the places you might think to look. This show is all about both soberly scrutinizing the silly little ways in which humans attempt to find meaning and connection and belonging in the 21st century of. And also poking a bit of fun

Amanda Montell (3:21)

at the absurdity along the way.

Chelsea Charles (3:22)

Today we're diving into a movement built on the fantasy of a perfectly optimized body and mind, a practice adored for its precision, ritual and the promise of transformation. These aren't just fitness fans or wellness enthusiasts. They're devotees of an aesthetic and a philosophy, people who speak in a secret language of neutral spine imprint and just one more inch. You've seen them everywhere. In matching sets, on Instagram, in studios with reformers lined up like pews preaching core control and spinal alignment as the path to a better self. Today we're talking about the world of Pilates.

Amanda Montell (4:12)

Oh, my God, my face. If you listeners could see, actually, and you can if you subscribe on YouTube, I am like, jaw on the floor. First of all, reformers lined up like pews bars. Chelsea, come on.

Chelsea Charles (4:23)

Yay.

Amanda Montell (4:24)

You already know, but my jaw has been dropped because I feel so called out. I don't think I've ever been so hardcore a part of a cult that we've scrutinized on the show before. The way that I'm a part of Pilates. Are you a Pilates girly, Chelsea? At all?

Chelsea Charles (4:38)

Yes. Okay, so this is the thing. I just want to say this up front, so obviously you neither. I'm not coming at Pilates as an outsider. I'm actually deeply familiar with the world of Pilates. I've tried every iteration. Matt Pilates, Hot Matt Pilates, traditional reformer, all the modern offshoots, Solidcore, Legree, which you already know, there's a discourse online happening currently if, like all the offshoots like Legree and Solidcore are even Pilates.

Amanda Montell (5:07)

Anyway, the infighting is astonishing to me and evidence of this being cultier than I even knew.

Chelsea Charles (5:14)

But I would say that I genuinely enjoy these classes. But I do recognize a way that it's probably far removed from how it was originally intended, where obviously, you know, classes cost anywhere between 40 to $50 per session if you don't have class pass.

Amanda Montell (5:35)

Yeah, I do class pass. But yes, it's insane. There's one place in my neighborhood where I actually ran into a culty once. Hello. And I was like, so embarrassed. Cause I was struggling so hardcore through this. But a membership there per month is like, I swear to God, like $400.

Chelsea Charles (5:52)

I'm not paying a car note to be a part of a fitness group.

Amanda Montell (5:56)

No. And I'm really interested to get into our discussion today, especially with our guest, because I'll put it this way. I did Pilates for a spell like once a week when I was 25 at this very chill studio at the neighborhood that I was living in at the time. And part of the reason why I liked it was because it didn't feel like soul cycle. It was not trying to cosplay church people were not worship instructors. Like, oh my God, it's Derek's class. Like, they were not spewing faux spirational mantras with the nightclub esque lighting, like, trying to get people to cry. Like, that stuff gives me the ick. And it also wasn't like CrossFit, where people were glamorizing injury and shaming people for not showing up. And I understand that not every CrossFit box is like that. As far as I know, there is no one leader, founder living today who's like, spreading the gospel of Pilates the way that the now canceled Greg Glassman, the founder of CrossFit, was kind of like the figurehead. So all of that was a green flag to me. And I was like, oh, this is just a get in, get out kind of fitness endeavor for me. But ultimately I did stop going because at the end of the day, like, it is better for business to create that sense of community, to create that culty sense of belonging at a fitness studio, which for a lot of secular people is that spiritual third space. Now last year I got back into the cult of Pilates in, like, such a more devoted way. And I'm going to be called out so hard on this episode because last year I started doing lree which, for those who don't know, is a Pilates inspired high intensity workout on a machine called a mega former. So if you think that reformer machine already looks like a medieval torture device, a mega former is like darth torture. Like, I had to go to Pilates, regular Pilates, for like six months just to even feel confident enough to go into that studio where. And this is how I think Pilates is culty in a way that's different from the churchy vibes of SoulCycle or the, like, beast mode army vibes of CrossFit. It is this unspoken aesthetic cult that I find is more subtle. I feel like when you go to a more on the nose cult fitness studio, everyone is like, so fucking nice to you right out of the gate. And the second you're nice to me for no reason without even knowing me, I'm just like, you're trying to get me to join a cult. Like, fuck off. But when a bunch of hot girls are not that friendly and saying things at the front of class like, okay, ladies, now we're gonna get into our jumping twisted mega reverse scrambled sn. And I don't know what the fuck is going on. And I feel shame, and I feel like I want to be in the know, but I also feel resentful of that desire. I'm just like, okay, now I'm in.

Chelsea Charles (8:35)

There is nothing like that feeling.

Amanda Montell (8:38)

It's almost like a sorority, but it's packaged differently. And that culty thought of, like, I'm not friends with anyone here, even though I've been going for nine months, but if I come long enough, I will finally understand what they're saying and I will finally look like them. That culty promise is what keeps me in. And I know it's problematic, but I'm ready to get unpacked.

Chelsea Charles (8:57)

No, it is problematic. But listen, I'm walking into the fire with you. You are not alone.

Amanda Montell (9:04)

I mean, how do you feel being in a Pilates studio? Does it feel culty to you?

Chelsea Charles (9:08)

I would say that I really prefer extremely feminine Pilates studios. I don't know if you've ever been to Carrie's and WeHo, but everything is pink. And I would say, I know that is I show up with a lot of masculine energy, especially at work. And when I go into Carrie's, I just feel like just a girl doing a hard thing with other girls.

Amanda Montell (9:35)

Wait, that's such a good point. And I was also thinking this too. Is that a lot of cult fitness studios? There's, like a lot of men even in SoulCycle, like some of the most beloved instructors are men. And that's why there have been like sex scandals allegedly within SoulCycle. Not to say that women can't have sex scandals. And honestly, I'm going through my own little sex scandal with regard to Pilates right now. You know what I'm talking about. I'm not ready to share on the pod, so. However, I agree with you that there is something that on its face feels really safe and really accepting about being in a feminine space. But on the flip side, it low key also feels like the wing in there sometimes, you know? You remember the wing?

Chelsea Charles (10:18)

Absolutely. I did not have a membership, but.

Amanda Montell (10:21)

No, me neither.

Chelsea Charles (10:23)

I went as a guest with the friend and I was like, oh, no, ma'. Am.

Amanda Montell (10:27)

No. And by that I mean there is this very sort of like performatively feminist, exclusive girl boss vibe that at the end of the day you have to be like, there's something sinister here. Like, this can't just be this female utopia, right?

Chelsea Charles (10:43)

I agree.

Amanda Montell (10:44)

Okay, well, wow, I'm getting a lot off my chest already. Sorry. Thank you for letting me just like pop off. But I feel like we should maybe for those who are not as deep in, give a little bit of background and history of Pilates because it's fascinating.

Chelsea Charles (11:01)

Pilates began in the early 1900s with Joseph Pilates, a German performer, boxer and self taught anatomist who believed modern life was ruining people's posture, breath and overall vitality. During World War I, while interned in a camp, he started experimenting with makeshift rehabilitation equipment and using bed springs. The earliest inspiration for today's reformers. After immigrating to New York in the 1920s, Joseph opened his first studio near the NYC Ballet, where dancers became his earliest and most devoted followers.

Amanda Montell (11:44)

Okay, so this origin story about like Pilates emerging as a rehabilitation exercise for soldiers during World War I is such a part of Pilates lore because I do feel like some men, outsiders kind of discount Pilates as a bit of like a girly pop workout. And I mean, I've gotten Casey to go with me many times, but the way that I got him in was like, oh well, get started in World War I. Like, it's so legit.

Chelsea Charles (12:11)

That's actually what I was kind of hinting at earlier is that it is like regarded as a workout for women. And I think it's having a little shift because of. Don't let me misspeak. But there was an NFL team that started doing Pilates and they were putting it all over their social media. And then I ended up going to a solid core class and I've been visiting a few times and then one day I show up and there are these very, very hot, attractive six, five men that were in the WeHo location and there were merkin in the class too. And I was like, yo, this workout is low key for everyone. And that's exactly how I got Scotty to. Because I was like, yo, I saw some NFL players.

Amanda Montell (12:57)

It so reminds me of that Samantha Jones quote from Sex and the City where she's talking about how celebrities build cult followings and she's referring to like her boyfriend at the time, Smith Jarrett. But she's like, first you got to get the gays, then the girls, then everybody and whatever. Sometimes it's the girls and the gays and then everybody. But like I feel like that is Pilates and so much fandom in general.

Chelsea Charles (13:18)

Absolutely. So jumping back in. Following his death in 1967, his students carried the work forward, splintering into lineages that still debate what counts as real pilates. In 1996 court ruling declared that Pilates couldn't be trademarked, sparking a global boom of studios, certifications and interpretations. What started as a rehabilitation technique in an internment camp has evolved into a multi billion dollar fitness movement.

Amanda Montell (13:50)

Oh, that's fascinating. Wow. Okay. There are so many different like sects and denominations of Pilates. Honestly, this is giving slightly live your life. Because when there's no like centralized controlling organization, I don't know, it can go both ways.

Chelsea Charles (14:06)

To that same point. What I will say is, okay, this is just a little aside tidbit. Sometimes I have dreams of like quitting tv, retiring from the world of TV and just open a humble little lagree studio, I don't know, that plays clubby music and does all the things. And sometimes I go on these like training websites to see how much they are. If you could guess how much would you say is the going price of like a training certification for Legree?

Amanda Montell (14:38)

Ooh, is it like 6k close?

Chelsea Charles (14:41)

It's 5. Well, what I've seen has been around like 45 to 5. And my whole thing is that is so much money for something that is not even like it's who is to decide who gives you your certification and just to say what.

Amanda Montell (14:55)

It's so elitist and exclusionary. Just overall, the first people to make Pilates popular were like white New York City ballerinas. They set the standard for who is welcome at Pilates. And I do get the feeling in there that if you don't portray class and wealth and Thinness. And there is a lot of talk in the world of Pilates about, like, looking toned, not looking bulky.

Chelsea Charles (15:20)

Yes.

Amanda Montell (15:21)

And, you know, what you wear does feel like an unspoken requirement.

Chelsea Charles (15:26)

I laugh often at how something so simplistic and stupid as matching sets, because that's so dumb. But it's like you have to show up and play the part of the world that you're in. And that's actually exactly what I wanted to talk about next. The barrier to entry in the world of Pilates. In the early 2000s, especially through the 2000s, Pilates quietly developed one of the highest barriers to entry in mainstream fitness. Not through exclusivity on paper, but through price, location, and cultural signaling. Over time, this produced a subtle us versus them mentality, which culties, you already know, we talk about this this often. This dynamic mirrors a familiar cult structure. Exclusivity breeds legitimacy. The harder something is to access financially, socially, or intellectually, the more meaningful membership feels. Intellectually, meaning the $5,000 certifications from you know who who.

Amanda Montell (16:29)

And the insidery language that is so inscrutable. I'm just like, just describe what the moves are. Like, do not tell me we're doing a French twisted mermaid egg.

Chelsea Charles (16:39)

I.

Amanda Montell (16:40)

What the fuck is a mermaid egg?

Chelsea Charles (16:42)

Oh, my God.

Amanda Montell (16:43)

And what makes this French? It's like when I go to physical therapy because I fucked up my back, they're like, okay, now you're gonna do monster walks. And they show you, and it's like, oh, my God. Yeah, like, monster walk. That is so descriptive. Or they're like, now you're gonna do a fire hydrant and they show you a move that looks like a dog peeing on a fire hydrant. And you're like, okay, that is so clear. But in Pilates, I do get this feeling that when I don't understand the names of the moves, I feel like I'm being trolled. I feel like I'm being hazed. And I feel like I'm being forced to look around and find that one girl, that one gorgeous, mean looking girl who knows what everything means, so that I know I'm lower down on this hierarchy.

Chelsea Charles (17:22)

Yes. Wait. Okay. I just want to give an aside for my first reformer class that I went to.

Amanda Montell (17:28)

Yeah.

Chelsea Charles (17:29)

So I went to this class, I was super nervous. I had my little matching set on, and I get there and I kind of want it to be tucked away so that I'm not like, in the front looking like a fool, like a little baby dear. And I'm in the beginner's class, mind you. So the girl comes over, the instructor, midway through the class, she pulls down her mic, covers it up, and she's like, you shouldn't come to this class anymore. And she was so stern. And I was like, okay. And she was like, you're far more advanced than you think you are. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So I'm like, okay. For the rest of the class, I'm like, yes, popping my shit, doing my, you know, scrambled egg, whatever you said. And then so the next time, I'm like, okay. She said I was far more advanced. I booked the advanced class. See, that's what I always get. Too big for my britches.

Amanda Montell (18:26)

Amanda, no, she set you up for failure. That was fucked up because she made you feel special and chosen. I would have ripped off all my clothes and run outside and been like. Like, I have reached enlightenment to have a mean Pilates instructor tell you that

Chelsea Charles (18:41)

you're advanced girl in the advanced class. When I tell you I was doing those moves, shaking like a stripper. And that mean. That mean instructor was looking at me like, bitch, why did you come to this?

Amanda Montell (19:01)

Oh, no, we should have gone intermediate. We skipped a few steps.

Chelsea Charles (19:06)

I don't know why I jumped anyway. All that to say, she motivated me. I was chosen.

Amanda Montell (19:12)

She built you up to break you down. But that is the type of hazing. That is the type of, like, sorority that keeps me wanting to, like, prove myself and win them over. And, like, it's not as culty as the churchy soul cycle on its face, but there is a cult for everyone, as we say on the show all the time. And that type of, like, I don't need you, you suck. Reverse psychology. It's for me.

Chelsea Charles (19:36)

It's for me too. It's for me, too. Jumping back in. So in an article in the online magazine Marie Claire titled It's the hottest workout of the Year, Pilates, the author states that, quote, studies show that fitness imagery disproportionately excludes larger bodies, older women and women of color. A 2025 report found that 30 97% of young women felt social media decreased self esteem and made them too self conscious to try new forms of exercise. When a practice like Pilates becomes entwined with a narrow aesthetic ideal, it risks alienating exactly the groups it could benefit the most. End quote. One of the instructors quoted in the article stated that, quote, different bodies, ages and races are rarely advertised in market. Pilates is for everyone, yet the image being sold is young, thin, white and affluent. She then goes on to say, pilates especially Reformer, should be more accessible and affordable. What we're seeing now is a far cry from what Joseph Pilates would have wanted. This wasn't Joseph's mission. Pilates was invented to heal people's bodies, minds and spirits.

Amanda Montell (20:48)

Damn. It's so interesting because you know how some say that the AI apocalypse won't happen in that Hollywood blockbuster way where like a bunch of robots are going to like bang down our doors or set off an atomic bomb. It's going to be much more subtle where AI is going to like infiltrate our information systems and just turn all of humanity against each other by increasingly making them deeply, deeply confused. That's more like the cult of Pilates. And I'll explain what I mean. As far as I've been able to tell in my light. Sounds like a cult level research for this episode. There hasn't been the type of scandal in Pilates the way that there's been for say Bikram yoga where the founder was found to be a sexual predator, emotionally, physically, financially abusive. It's not even like SoulCycle where there have been sexual harassment allegations or CrossFit where people are getting these like life threatening injuries because the workout romanticizes and encourages dangerous physical movements. It is a much more subtly dangerous mentality that perpetuates diet, culture and low self esteem among women. I mean like suicide rates are at an all time high for young women on social media, many of whom probably have Pilates content in their algorithm. You know, it's just the cult mentality here and the cult mission and ideology is much, much more subtle than some of the cult fitness cabals that we've covered before. And that feels like pretty insidious.

Chelsea Charles (22:25)

I don't know. That was deep. A minute.

Amanda Montell (22:28)

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to get like super apocalyptic and like suicide Y on a Sunday. We're recording this on a Sunday morning. I'm so sorry. And I have like a sinus issue right now and I didn't expect to go there, but like I guess we had. I had, I felt the need.

Chelsea Charles (22:41)

So cerebral. I am obsessed.

Amanda Montell (22:44)

Oh my God.

Chelsea Charles (22:45)

Sorry. No, no, I 1,000% agree. When we talk about like the end verdict. It's like the kind of cult that kind of like slithers in and it's very, very unassuming.

Amanda Montell (22:59)

You reverse mega mermaids into your bloodstream and makes you want to die.

Chelsea Charles (23:04)

Yeah, yep, it is.

Amanda Montell (23:05)

It's death by a thousand two inch pulses is what it is. Okay, now I think it's time to get into our guest interview because as deep into cult as we are. There are people who go even deeper and we're super curious to hear what they have to say about it. And our guest is not only deep into Pilates but like kind of assumes a bit of like an all knowing cult leader role maybe a little bit. And we want to know what the hell is going on there. So we're going to be speaking with Dr. Adam McAtee, he goes by Adam McAtee Pilates on Instagram. He purported sports to bring a more science based approach to Pilates. He brings his own like unique perspective and approach to this cult. And yeah, we're eager to grill him on the ins and outs of this cult and his role in it. So stick around for after the break.

Amanda Montell (24:10)

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Chelsea Charles (25:52)

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Amanda Montell (26:24)

Adam, thank you so much for joining the Sounds Like a Cult podcast to talk about the cult of Pilates.

Dr. Adam McAtee (26:30)

Thank you for having me.

Amanda Montell (26:31)

First, need to get some context about your personal relationship to the world of Pilates. Adam, could you kind of like introduce yourself and your role in this world? Are you a skeptic? Are you a cult leader? Are you a follower? Tell us.

Dr. Adam McAtee (26:44)

Yeah, I'll let other people judge that, but I'll just be who I am in the process. For me, I've been teaching Pilates since 2009, so I think that's 16 years at the time of this recording. I've done multiple trainings from different perspectives, which has been really helpful to really understand the industry. But I've also. One of the best things I ever did was to study movement that has nothing to do with Pilates and then bring that back into Pilates. So I went and I earned an exercise science degree and I became a licensed physical therapist, which just allows me to really see movement for what it is and then kind of detach from the lineages and the cult like mindset that is very prevalent in all corners of Pilates.

Amanda Montell (27:21)

Wait, can you say more? How would you describe that cult like mindset? How does it show up?

Dr. Adam McAtee (27:26)

Well, it depends, right? It's like, well, what cult are you talking about? Are you talking about the physiotherapist based Pilates that claims to be scientific but they don't use science? Are you referring to the people who are really attached to the way Joseph Pilates taught Pilates, which is actually its own mindset? Because a lot of times their claims are actually not how Joseph taught, it's

Amanda Montell (27:47)

just how they think Joseph taught it's giving Christianity. What would Jesus do?

Dr. Adam McAtee (27:51)

It parallels religious mindset a lot in that you have to justify that Joe would approve of what you're doing and then you're allowed to do it rather than just my client's knee hurts. I'm a physical therapist, so my mindset or authenticity is function. I work with older adults, 15 older, so the goals are just different. But with this, I'm more interested in, like, what do I need to do to help my client's knee? It's not bending or it's hurting, whatever it is. Or maybe they have a wedding. Like, like, what do I need to help them with? Rather than, how can I use these selected exercises? And these are the only things I'm allowed to use to call out Pilates, because if they need something outside of those exercises, I'm not allowed to do it because I don't know if Mr. Pilates would approve. That's the cult.

Amanda Montell (28:30)

So there's like a dogma vibe.

Dr. Adam McAtee (28:32)

Totally. I would rather, like, not do Pilates and help people than do Pilates and kind of help.

Chelsea Charles (28:39)

Can you talk more about how Pilates is culty on the instructor side of things?

Dr. Adam McAtee (28:43)

When I was first learning Pilates, I learned classical Pilates, which is from the perspective of Joseph Pilates. And we were taught that this is the only kind of acceptable Pilates. And they would talk about the studios down the street as, like, it would be like, a solid core type Pilates. And like, that's not Pilates. It was really catty and snooty. I felt guilty to do any other kind of exercise based on what I learned there. Like, if I was to say, I'm gonna go do CrossFit, it would be like. Like, you know, I'm not saying, like, everywhere is like that. I. From my own perspective, but I think a lot of it is. People have good intentions, but they're misguided. And so they're misguided by the educational systems. And so they're just trying to express what they learned at school. But it's like the courses need to change their narratives.

Amanda Montell (29:23)

It reminds me of, like, the chiropractic industry a tiny bit.

Dr. Adam McAtee (29:27)

What are your thoughts on the chiropractic industry?

Amanda Montell (29:29)

It's whack. We did an episode on the cult of chiropractors, and we learned the mystical lore and the lack of empirical research in science. Do I want someone to crack the living shit out of my back? Obviously. Do I think chiropractic is like, real medicine?

Dr. Adam McAtee (29:50)

Nor that's A done rabbit hole.

Chelsea Charles (29:54)

So Pilates has a very specific vocabulary. Neutral, spine, imprint, opposition. How does this shared language create a sense of insiders versus is outsiders type of vibe?

Dr. Adam McAtee (30:09)

Yeah, and that's a really good question because the terms you use are actually contemporary terms. They're not even classical terms. For example, we didn't use the term imprint in classical plotting, but it still exists. We just use different names. So I live in the gray with all this. I just look at things anatomically and I'm like, neutral just sounds like somewhere in the middle. And then imprint sounds like a little bit of lumbar flexion. Like, I don't use any of those terms, but it's one of those things that people will utilize as a weapon. And what it's really teaching is teaching your clients that they're fragile, that if they're not in imprint in an open chain. Sorry if I'm getting too lingo, but if you're on your back and your legs are up, some core exercise. It's like the rule is you have to be an imprint because of this biomechanical reason, as if you're going to get hurt if you're not. And so when people utilize these narratives, such as you need to be an imprint, you need to be in neutral, they don't actually provide any research to support any of that. And the reason is either they don't know how to do it, or it's because it doesn't exist, exist, or in many cases, just both. And so that's where I try to just do good in the industry and question those things, because you could also just choose the one that feels better and then move on with your life. Get a good workout. The point being is that a lot of times the language is, like, sacred in the sense that you're not really allowed to question it. And then I just throw shit in the air. I say, fuck it. I'm questioning it. But I'm going to ask good questions along the way. It ruffles feathers in a helpful way, and not everyone likes that. And that's the.

Amanda Montell (31:33)

Okay, what would you say are the consequences of ruffling those feathers? Because that's a clue in determining how much of a cult this really is. You know, are you allowed to ruffle feathers?

Dr. Adam McAtee (31:42)

You're allowed to do whatever you allow yourself to do. Really, the consequences are people on the Internet who don't know you, don't like you. That's really what it is. It's like, I'm sorry that Karen in Kansas doesn't like me anymore. So sorry to any Karen in Kansas. I didn't. I wasn't talking to other Karen.

Amanda Montell (31:58)

It's a metaphor.

Dr. Adam McAtee (31:59)

But the point is really, it's just your ego. And so what it does, like, what I've learned is it tests, like, how much do believe in what you're saying. And if you don't really believe in it, then it will ruffle your feathers because you won't feel very secure. Or if you piss off everybody in the conversation, then that's really good feedback because it's like, well, maybe you need to learn how to communicate a little bit better. Meaning. I've talked about similar concepts throughout the years. I've pissed off more people earlier in my career and I piss off less people later in my career. Just in the sense of you learn how to ask better questions or package a piece of content in a certain way that is more sophisticated rather than just being like, I'm right, right, you're wrong.

Amanda Montell (32:38)

So actually this makes me want to ask. Can you talk about the relationship between Pilates and social media and, like, how apps like Instagram and TikTok have contributed to Pilates becoming cultier in a way?

Dr. Adam McAtee (32:49)

Well, social media connects people, right? And so you just friend people who you like and think like you. So then it's like the whole world thinks this way. Like, I use social media on a daily basis. It's an awesome tool, but you just have to understand that it is going to contribute. Contribute to confirmation bias, which is the essence of a cult. Partially what social media can contribute is just connection to the industry and there's different perspectives. And a lot of times people get threatened by different perspectives. To me, it just shows like, an insecurity and opportunities to learn that there's more ways to do Pilates than the way you know Pilates. And it's really interesting to watch people's reaction to that. Like, I have kettlebells underneath my reformer. And like, that's been criticized as not Pilates. Like, you're not actually on, wow, I don't give a. I don't give a shit. I just use them. But I mean, I have them there for a reason too. It's a filter. Like, if that scares you, like, I'm right, not your guy.

Amanda Montell (33:43)

I really had no idea there was like, quite this level of infighting and controversy within the Pilates world. It's kind of nuts.

Dr. Adam McAtee (33:50)

What are your perceptions of the Pilates industry?

Chelsea Charles (33:53)

So many things. First thing is there is this idea that Pilates is gender specific and that's what I see perpetuated online. Amanda and I talked about our experience how like on one side it does feel like a safe space for women in a class, but it also feels a little exclusionary in a sense where I guess men kind of feel like they can't benefit from the exercise. We talked a little bit about the barrier to entry and how it's extremely expensive for the common person. And originally Joseph Pilates, that's not what he wanted. He wanted to be inclusionary instead of exclusionary. And I just think that kind of sucks. And that's how I perceive Pilates online.

Amanda Montell (34:37)

Yeah, we both do it. But I do feel like there is an elitist vibe in there. And we were talking before you jumped on about how the cult vibes of Pilates just manifest in a less explicitly churchy way. So that can kind of mask any low key toxicity that may or may not exist.

Chelsea Charles (34:58)

Exist.

Amanda Montell (34:58)

But I love it. I'm just fascinated by how attached people get to these ideas, which I understand is like filtered down from the education systems. But hardcore Pilates industry folks must really, like attach an identity to these schools of thought or else I don't think it would be this charge for them.

Dr. Adam McAtee (35:16)

Oh, absolutely. Right. Like who, who would you be if you found out what you learned was wrong?

Amanda Montell (35:20)

Wow. That full quote could apply to every episode of the show.

Dr. Adam McAtee (35:24)

Anything. Anything. It's just like, like that's not a threat at to you as a person. And I think that's a massive thing. That's why I advocate for Pilates instructors to just learn exercise, because you don't actually learn exercise. You don't learn what strength actually is. You don't learn what cardiovascular activity actually is. You learn exercises, but you don't learn exercise. Isn't that fucking weird? And that's why narratives are so easy to believe, because you don't have a foundation to question it. But if someone tells you like, oh, this is for strength and you know what strength actually means, and I don't know, it's like a stretch, like it makes no sense. That's not a strength exercise. Or the Load and by anyways, I'll go down a rabbit hole. But it's just like, maybe we should have kettlebells underneath our fucking reformer because there aren't enough springs to actually buy a strength.

Amanda Montell (36:11)

Right.

Chelsea Charles (36:12)

Well, that actually leads me to my next question. When speaking about, like all the online discourse breaking down the different lineages of Pilates from its original iteration, your work actually takes technically seems to do another version of that, except through a more scientific Lens. Could you kind of dig into what inspired you to take up this mantle?

Dr. Adam McAtee (36:37)

Yeah, I mean, it was really studying exercise science in school and then me thinking I knew the answer because of my Pilates education, and I was completely wrong. And it really inspired me to like, really seek truths. And then I noticed how I was more skilled, knowledgeable and confident working with my clients. And I started doing things that weren't in my training. But my clients were getting better. Science changes over the years. They're still teaching the same shit that they were 10 years ago, which was also wrong 10 years ago. So it inspired me that, like, there are people that want to learn and they're paying thousands of dollars. Plotting training is not cheap. Like probably like nine grand or something. And then you learn shit that's not true and you have to unlearn it. And so for me, it's like, well, I want to help people. And so within that, how do you do that? Well, I notice a need for science based education because it doesn't exist or it's really minimal. It's getting better. But whether it be physiotherapy based Pilates, classical Pilates, or something in between, there's a massive hole and people are claiming science, but it's not science. The provider research study that was done on dead pigs and they're applying it to humans. It's fucking wild.

Amanda Montell (37:43)

That's the part that most reminds me of chiropractic.

Dr. Adam McAtee (37:46)

Yeah. Within my education, with becoming a physical therapist and studying exercise science and having an extensive history in Pilates, I understand how to speak the language of Pilates and translate research to Pilates. Because sometimes people will just be a physical therapist and then they'll try to teach Pilates instructors, but you don't speak Pilates, you don't understand the Pilates problems. And then if you only teach Pilates and you learn Pilates, then you don't really know the research.

Amanda Montell (38:08)

Yeah.

Dr. Adam McAtee (38:08)

So that's a skill. Right. And so I'm like, okay, how can I blend these two together? And I used to teach a program for a great company in Australia, but The program was $10,000. That's continuing education.

Amanda Montell (38:19)

Wow.

Chelsea Charles (38:19)

It actually is so weird because the entire time that you were talking, this is an aside, but you were hinting on something that is so specific, talking about how, yes, a lot of these things are based on research, but antiquated research that needs to be updated. And I can't help but to draw parallels with modern gynecology and how our entire, like childbirth and gynecology is built on a science that used slaves to build the science and the research that we still use today. And some of those teachings are so problematic because there's just this idea that black women and women of color have higher pain receptors so they can experience higher levels of pain without actually feeling it. And that is all based on the research of so, so long ago. So you are touching on something that I definitely think, to your point, needs to be updated and talked about.

Dr. Adam McAtee (39:21)

I just want a citation. Can we just start with that? Because if you start with that, then like 80% of the claims fall flat on their face. And it's like, well, what. How did you learn that? And. And you got to step into that as an individual to be comfortable going into that, because that could be a threat to your identity. If you learn neutral spine is the holy grail. And then you found out that, like, that's actually never been tested on a human.

Chelsea Charles (39:42)

It's kind of scary.

Amanda Montell (39:43)

Yeah. It really makes this whole thing seem more like a spirituality that can justify potentially really problematic things, including, yeah, I mean, the parallel with gynecology. Like there is a racism problem in Pilates, I think from my own observations and from what I've read. So that feels like really pertinent.

Chelsea Charles (40:02)

So kind of touching a little bit on the research aspect. Joseph Pilates has kind of like a godlike presence in this community and is said to have a strong philosophical belief belief about health, modern life and physical discipline. Which of his ideas align with research and which ones do we just keep? Because they're a part of the lore of Pilates.

Dr. Adam McAtee (40:25)

Well, would you take medical advice from the 1950s?

Chelsea Charles (40:29)

No.

Dr. Adam McAtee (40:30)

Me neither.

Amanda Montell (40:31)

Thank you.

Dr. Adam McAtee (40:32)

So. So, I mean, there's a lot that's right, like exercise is still good. But also, Mr. Pilates got a lot of stuff wrong. Just like we are getting a lot of shit wrong today. If you question, like what we're doing now in 50 years, there should be progr progress. Why are we doing the same thing? You should continue to learn and evolve. He referred to muscle fatigue as poison. He referred to exercise should be not so hard on the heart. So that's why Pilates mat work is in a semi recumbent or a supine position like you're laying down. But that's the opposite. It's like, how do you increase heart health? You fucking use it. You do cardiovascular exercise. Like you get your heart pumping. You can be 92 years old and as long as all medical complications are medical history is fine. Like we can get your heart rate up that's actually what you're supposed to do. Do. And you got it flat out wrong. And then muscle and fatigue is exactly what you're supposed to do. You know what muscle fatigue feels like? It feels like burning. Imagine going to an exercise, you're not allowed to get your heart rate up, and you're not allowed to feel muscles. So I know you're asking me, like, what he got right. And I went to what he got wrong. What he got right was the need to move the spine, the need to be aware of your breathing and to utilize your breath. Because similar, like, they're just things of the body that we take for granted until they stop working. And one of those is breathing. Like, we just assume that we can breathe, but then if you have a breathing problem or you have a deficit, now we have a massive problem. You could even extract that to the big toe. Have you ever, like, broke your big toe or hurt it?

Chelsea Charles (41:52)

Not broke it, but I have heard no.

Amanda Montell (41:53)

Thank God.

Dr. Adam McAtee (41:54)

You realize how important that thing is when it stops working, Right? So he got a lot right. And I think it's fair to see a human as a human and a human that we appreciate the work of. It's not a disrespect to question things. That's just the nature of science. Question everything. And if a question is a threat, then that's a really good question. Like, that's something that needs to be questioned. Questioned. So keep questioning things. And if it's a good concept, it should hold the test of time and also the test of questions. So, like, why is muscle fatigue poison?

Amanda Montell (42:25)

Yeah. You know, in religious studies and in sort of like, the cult space, there are a number of jokes hinting at how difficult it is to define what occult is. And one of them is a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God. A religion is a group where that leader is dead. And what that is speaking to is just like, how much we unquestioningly worship the doctrines of dead men. Not only in religion, but in politics, in fitness, in so many areas that are not scientific or pseudo scientific, but also sometimes in science. We're out here worshiping dead men when we should really be questioning them. But that quote feels pertinent to what you're saying and can apply to so many groups in contemporary American society that we don't think of as cults, but we are out here worshiping a dead man the way that religious people. People worship Jesus or the way that remaining Heaven's Gate members still worship. Marshall Applewhite Yeah.

Dr. Adam McAtee (43:23)

And it's based on a selection bias, like you only share the parts you like. None of the quotes that I shared with you are shared in Plotty's education because they make no sense. And then if you share that, then they're no longer a deity. They're a human who made mistakes.

Amanda Montell (43:34)

Yeah. Okay, our last question before we play a little game is what do you think, in your opinion, is the cultiest controversy or scandal that has ever befallen politics?

Dr. Adam McAtee (43:47)

That's a good question. Are you referring to like a specific event or an idea?

Amanda Montell (43:50)

Okay, well, it's funny that you ask that because we've been trying to look for a specific event and it's like low key, kind of hard. So take the question as you will.

Dr. Adam McAtee (44:00)

Yeah, I'm not a Pilates historian, but I would say that the cultiest part is just I've talked to individuals who studied a certain type of Pilates and they wouldn't go to educational events that weren't held by that company because they're like, they said, I'm not allowed to in the weird. Yeah, that's why you should go. So the identity and a lot of that is like you're either classical Pilates or you're contemporary Pilates. So I would say that that's what comes to mind in terms of the biggest cult is that you have to kind of pick a side.

Amanda Montell (44:30)

Lack of nuance and like, open communication is like the very abstract scandal of this cult.

Dr. Adam McAtee (44:37)

It's like testing the comfort level of like, what if Joseph was wrong about something? If you want to piss off the Internet, go put a Joseph Pilates quote on the Internet that made no sense and then question his ideas.

Amanda Montell (44:48)

Oh my God. That's what we should do to promote this episode. Do exactly that. Just rage bait the Pilates whorls. Okay, so speaking of questions, we have a little game for you that consists of questions and the game is called culty or just cringe. So we're gonna read a list of Pilates oriented scenarios and you will classify whether you believe in your alleged opinion the scenario is culty or just kind of cringe.

Chelsea Charles (45:18)

Okay, first things first. Instructors using hands on corrections without explicitly asking for consent.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:26)

That's cringe.

Amanda Montell (45:27)

Number two, extremely specific insider language that newcomers can't understand.

Amanda Montell (45:33)

Understand.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:33)

Oh, that's culty.

Chelsea Charles (45:35)

Teacher trainings that cost thousands of dollars and promise real legitimacy.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:40)

That's culty.

Amanda Montell (45:42)

Strong loyalty to one method and one method alone.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:46)

That's exactly what a cult is. Culty.

Chelsea Charles (45:48)

Feeling guilt or anxiety when you skip a class.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:51)

Oh, that's just cringe. Why are we just being human?

Amanda Montell (45:54)

Being told other workouts are dangerous, inferior, or bad for your body.

Dr. Adam McAtee (45:59)

That's culty.

Chelsea Charles (46:00)

Okay. Instructors, discouraging modifications.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:04)

That's just dumb. I don't know. Cringe. It's cringe. That would be cringe, is the correct answer.

Amanda Montell (46:11)

Viewing Pilates as rehabilitation for everything.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:16)

That's culty.

Chelsea Charles (46:16)

Feeling motivated by group accountability.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:20)

This is me, you know, I think that's cool. Like, go do that. Yeah, I'm just gonna sidestep that one. That's fine.

Amanda Montell (46:28)

I think that's deeply human to be motivated by group catalyst.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:32)

If it's like, one group and you only do what the group says, then that's culty.

Chelsea Charles (46:36)

Okay. Fact.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:36)

But if you were about to skip class and then you got a text message that said you showing up, I

Amanda Montell (46:41)

think that's a good one for sure. And the last one is matching sets as an unspoken uniform.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:49)

I'll just say cringe, I guess. I mean, I don't care.

Amanda Montell (46:52)

Oh, my God.

Dr. Adam McAtee (46:53)

Go, like, wear what you want to wear.

Chelsea Charles (46:55)

I think it was more so touching on what we were talking about earlier, how online culture kind of perpetuates this idea that you have to be in a matching set or you're not a polarizer.

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:06)

Oh, yes, I'm a dude. I just show up in, like, my tank top.

Chelsea Charles (47:09)

Okay.

Amanda Montell (47:10)

Yeah, I know it. Like, he can't relate.

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:12)

Yeah. So I'm gonna say cringe.

Amanda Montell (47:14)

I think it's culty, but that doesn't

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:16)

reflect the actual studio. I don't know. But there's always one, I guess, Right?

Amanda Montell (47:21)

That's the. As Chelsea was saying, the conversation between, like, standards online and whatever.

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:27)

Like, I'm going to say cringe because you don't have to.

Chelsea Charles (47:30)

He's like, I'm not coerced into saying cult.

Amanda Montell (47:34)

I shan't be right.

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:36)

I mean, is it. Is that culty? I mean, if you had to wear, like, a brand.

Amanda Montell (47:40)

No, I guess not. I mean, we love to sensationalize on this show, and all of this is up to interpretation. So maybe it is just cringe. Adam, thank you so much for joining this conversation and this analysis of the cult of Pilates. If people want to keep up with you and your approach. Approach to this cult, where can they do that?

Dr. Adam McAtee (47:56)

I'm on Instagram, Damacatee, Pilates, and then I'm also the founder of evidence based Pilates. So if you'd like to work with us, we do Pilates education. You can start for free and see if it's for you that's@evidencebased pilates.com Amazing.

Chelsea Charles (48:11)

Thank you.

Amanda Montell (48:18)

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Amanda Montell (50:09)

these three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think the Cult of Pilates falls into to?

Chelsea Charles (50:20)

I'm going to say the Cult of Pilates falls into a watcher bag just because. I mean, come on. I love a good workout as much as the next gal, but I will say I feel like we have become so individualistic in our world currently. And I feel like when we live in this bubble and we don't think about how our activities. Activities affect other people, I just don't think that's right. And so I think you need to be well versed and understand that sometimes you are experiencing things I. E. Pilates from a place of privilege. And I think Pilates should be more accessible to everyone. And so watch your back.

Amanda Montell (51:03)

I completely agree. This cult shows up so differently than any of the other cult fitness studios or movements that, that we've covered before. I didn't know how I was gonna feel by the time we got to this verdict because it is hard to find a culty scandal or controversy that mirrors those that have befallen yoga to the people, Bikram, even Peloton, you know. But that doesn't mean that there aren't serious culty consequences to the way that this workout practice has, has, to use your word, slithered its way into our culture and our beauty standards. And yeah, I completely agree. Like, I feel cognitive dissonance when I go in there and do and do Pilates because I mean, everyone in that studio is a similar shape, size, color, like, it is hard to ignore and yet it is around the corner from my house. And I want to be accepted. Like, I do shameful want to be accepted by these like, hot girl cool girls, which is like, I guess some shit that I'll need to unpack maybe. I don't know, I'm also like, new to my fitness journey and maybe at some point I won't need that draw, you know, I'll just like, enjoy exercising enough to be able to do it in like, a healthier, more affordable way that like, doesn't have any negative repercussions.

Chelsea Charles (52:28)

I. I don't know.

Amanda Montell (52:29)

This is like, yeah, I feel a lot of cognitive dissonance around this for all the reasons that you described. Well, that is our show.

Chelsea Charles (52:37)

Thanks so much for listening.

Amanda Montell (52:39)

Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty,

Chelsea Charles (52:44)

but not too culty.

Amanda Montell (52:52)

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Movie Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katy Epperson.

Amanda Montell (53:05)

Our theme music is by Casey Kolb.

Amanda Montell (53:07)

If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot.

Amanda Montell (53:15)

And if you like this podcast, feel

Amanda Montell (53:16)

free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism which inspired the show. You might also enjoy My Idea other books the Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult Cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

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