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- [00:00]
Amanda Montel
The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
- [00:13]
Federica Brandi
Rave culture specifically is so based on these concepts of like, peace, love, unity, respect that it really is kind of a refuge for people. What made me really fall in love with rave culture was just that sense of like, finding, belonging, acceptance and a source of like unconditional love, which, which I think is always something that humans are seeking and especially in today's era and just the way the world is right now. And as community starved as we are, particularly in the United States, it's a major draw.
- [00:44]
Reese Oliver
Church and concerts are becoming more and more synonymous and I feel like that's happening on both ends of the spectrum. It's not just the mega churches are getting ravier. The raves are getting churchier.
- [00:53]
Federica Brandi
Oh my God.
- [00:54]
Reese Oliver
Yes, this is Sounds like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow.
- [01:01]
Amanda Montel
I'm Amanda Montel, author of the book the Language of Fanaticism.
- [01:05]
Reese Oliver
And I am Reese Oliver. Sounds like a Cult coordinator. Every week on this show we discuss a different culty group from the Zeitgeist, from Harry Potter to Shen Yun. To try and answer the big question.
- [01:17]
Amanda Montel
This group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A Live youe Life, a Watch your Back, or a Get the Fuck Out. The point of this little show right here is to poke a little fun at humans search for meaning in the 21st century while also legitimately scrutinizing the different cultish ways that we do that, to try to figure out if they're mostly harmless or kind of full blown destructive. And today we're talking about the Cult of Raves. This was a request that I received IRL from a listener in person who came to my book tour.
- [02:05]
Reese Oliver
You can't really say no to one of those.
- [02:07]
Amanda Montel
No, you really can't. The power of irl. Human Connection. And that person who made the request ended up being our interviewee for the episode because she is a hardcore member of the cult of rave culture. Her name is Federica Brandi and she is a raver. She is an editorial writer for a publication about raves. Hyper qualified to unpack this cult with us. And we want to get straight into the interview because even though she wasn't able to touch on every single last point that she had in her sweet brain, we did go there.
- [02:46]
Reese Oliver
We poked around.
- [02:48]
Amanda Montel
If you are listening to and even enjoying this episode of the podcast and want to go deeper, I have a book recommendation for you. This is your host, Amanda by the way, and the book is called the Age of Magical Overthinking and I wrote it. I poured my heart into this book and I really think you might like it. It's about delusion and obsession in the information age and how the ways in which our minds naturally work are clashing with our current culture. And every chapter explores some confounding irrationality from contemporary society, including extreme cycles of celebrity worship and dethronement, mass embrace of Instagram manifestation gurus during times of crisis, and why our bodies sometimes enter literal fight or flight in response to something as objectively non threatening as a curt email from a coworker. The book blends social science with pop culture analysis and personal stories. And if you prefer audiobooks, I recorded mine myself. So it's kind of like an extension of the podcast. Again, the book is called the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and it's available wherever books are sold, your local indie bookstore, bookshop.org, barnes & Noble, or even that one massive online book retailer run by a cult leader. You know the one. So if you enjoy this podcast, I really hope you'll consider checking out the book.
- [04:07]
Unknown
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- [05:07]
Amanda Montel
Get into our interview, we as always wanted to supply a bit of background for those unfamiliar with the cult of raves. I was pretty unfamiliar. I mean Rhys, do you have personal experience with raves?
- [05:18]
Reese Oliver
I have a couple friends who because I exist in the theater space sometimes like work rave related events as hands or do lights or whatever. But besides that, not really I mostly just see it online and I feel the way about online rave culture the way I about a lot of festival culture, which is that it all looks like super fun for someone who's not me.
- [05:39]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, right. I feel the same. My only personal experience with raves, When I was 15, I was friends with this really cool girl in my school named Kate, whose parents let her throw a rave themed 15th birthday party and the cops showed up.
- [05:57]
Reese Oliver
That's so sick.
- [05:58]
Amanda Montel
It was really fun. It was where I did my first edible. It was just weed. I mean, it was turbo illegal at the time. This was like 2007 in Baltimore, Maryland. I had smoked weed before, but I had never done an edible. And it was an edible in the form of a pill. It was like a little spherical pill is not odd.
- [06:16]
Federica Brandi
What?
- [06:17]
Reese Oliver
That's scary. That's like what they warn you is in the Halloween candy.
- [06:21]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, honestly, no, it was giving anthrax. I ingested it nonetheless and there were like glow sticks. It was a blast. But the best part about it was that, you know, I wouldn't call myself like a buttoned up kid.
- [06:34]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, you took an edible at someone's 15th birthday party.
- [06:36]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, no, I definitely did drugs. But I guess compared to like the average person who went to my high school, I seemed slightly more tightly wound or like just not super down to clown. But I was indeed down to clown. So I did this THC pill. And then a rumor got spread around school that Amanda Montel had done pcp, which I don't even know what that is. Is that like a really nasty kind of speed? I don't even know. I don't know either.
- [07:04]
Reese Oliver
And I think it's good that we don't.
- [07:06]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, me too. But I did nothing to dispel this rumor because I actually loved, like the edge that it gave me, you know, People started looking at me different in the halls.
- [07:16]
Federica Brandi
Yeah.
- [07:17]
Amanda Montel
Any who? Before we introduce everyone to Federica and her knowledge and her pashmina and her candy. Don't worry, you will learn what those things are. Rhys, could you kick us off with a wee spot of background about why rave culture might actually be a cult?
- [07:37]
Reese Oliver
Well, first I want to talk a little bit about techno music, because that's actually what I knew more about from this topic than I even realized. When I first read what Federica had sent us in her email about techno music's roots in Detroit, I remembered this documentary that had been shown by my performance art professor called Black to Techno by Jennifer Nakiru. And I highly recommend it. It's this really awesome exploration of just like the creation of techno music and the incorporated sounds from life. It's beautiful. So upon further researching, I learned that Detroit circa the 1980s saw the invention of techno music by black musicians and early American techno was science fictional futurism pursued through experimental sound, social mixing, freeform radio, pride in blackness and queerness, altered states of consciousness, style discernment and technological innovation. I am pulling that quote from a New Yorker piece called Reimagining Underground Rave Culture by Emily Witt. We'll pull a little bit more from that later. So in the 1970s we're really seeing these disco parties of the UK adopt a lot of these rave trends that are being born in black techno music in America. And I guess I always thought of raves as being this super futuristic Y2K 90s era thing, but like, it really does make sense when you think about it that they emerged in the 70s, which is a time that gave us so many prevalent cults.
- [09:07]
Amanda Montel
Oh yeah. It only makes sense that a music culture, this cult y would come from that era that we associate with so many classic cults from Jonestown to the Mansons.
- [09:19]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. And from this globalization is where we see the term rave born. It is first used in England to describe this electronic music centric party, at least as far as my research has led me. So two things really characterize raves largely at this time. You know, they're still kind of being born. So it's like, all right, what differentiates this from a regular concert? And those two things seem to be a repurposed setting like a basement or a warehouse or just somewhere that you were not supposed to be, and illicit substances that you could really only do in settings that you weren't supposed to be in. Another quote from the New Yorker piece that I feel really sums up what I imagine the experience must have been at these early raves is that there was also an expectation of endurance, of a collective experience that would continue through the night and into the morning. So definitely grimy counterculture, not attractive. But we are slowly seeing that change. Rave culture is becoming more sanitized, as Federica will tell us a little bit more about later. In the 90s we begin to see the process begin with rave raves coming above ground and outdoors with these events like Fantasia and Universe and all of these like multi day outdoor extravaganzas. And now we have like Elon Musk parties and quote unquote raves getting sold out at Madison Square Garden. And the term has essentially lost all Meaning the end. That's the end of the episode.
- [10:51]
Amanda Montel
Yeah. No, it is true. I mean, I don't even think of raves as a counterculture anymore.
- [10:58]
Reese Oliver
No, they're the monoculture.
- [11:00]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, yeah. Which, like, cue collective gasp. But I can so easily envision a category of rave outfits sold at fucking Forever 21 or whatever, which has nothing to do with this culture that was birthed in a basement where if you wanted to be a part of it, you had to stay up all night. Which, honestly, I would be unqualified already. My bedtime is at 10:30pm I'm not cool enough to be counterculture. I'm too sleepy. No, but if anyone asks, that was me doing PCP in 2007.
- [11:35]
Reese Oliver
I will take credit for the PCP. I will not take credit for oversleeping the next morning. And that is really what it's about. The separation, the contained hedonism is what bravery is all about.
- [11:48]
Amanda Montel
Oh, thank you so much for helping me understand. Well, with that, we are so excited to introduce you to this conversation with Federico, where we really go there. We name names, we trade candy. Yeah. So without further ado, here's our little juicy discussion. The Cult of Raves. Federico, welcome to Sounds like a Cult. As I understand it, you're familiar with the show.
- [12:17]
Federica Brandi
Oh, yes, I am. I have been listening for the better part of a year. I'm so, so excited to be part of it. Thank you for having me.
- [12:23]
Amanda Montel
It's our honor. Federica, could you introduce yourself to the listeners and how you got involved with the cult of Raves?
- [12:31]
Federica Brandi
Yes, ma'. Am. So my name is Federica. I'm also known as the roving raver on Instagram. I went to my first ever rave in 2011. I was still in high school. I went to college shortly after. I took a long hiatus from about 2011 to 2018, and then I would say 2018, 2019 is when I have been raving consistently. However, the story actually goes back much further than that. I have loved dance music and been aware of rave culture since I was probably about 9 or 10 years old. Like, early days YouTube, around 2005, discovered dance music. And so I've kind of been like a lifelong follower from a distance. When I was too young to participate and go to raves, I was still, like, aware of the culture. You know, I was deep into the YouTubes and, like, just fell in love with the music. And it's just really been a lifelong interest of mine, and I just didn't have the right friend group and Was not bold enough to sneak out. So I waited until I was like 17.
- [13:28]
Amanda Montel
There is something funny about the image of someone sneaking out all alone.
- [13:33]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, you can find the dance music on YouTube. That's how you found it. You can rave in your room if you're gonna do it alone.
- [13:39]
Federica Brandi
Exactly.
- [13:39]
Amanda Montel
You know what, though? This is reminding me, to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong, I perceive a kind of straight edge denomination of rave culture.
- [13:50]
Federica Brandi
There are lots of different kind of subcultures within dance music culture and rave culture perceived as straight edge. And that's, I think has changed over the years. But I feel like that's probably rooted in some of the earlier days of rape culture where it was a lot more stigmatized and people kind of have to keep it a secret. Maybe if you have a corporate job in some industries still, you might have to kind of keep your ducks in a row and kind of keep it on the DL. There are a lot of people in the military who rave who kind of really have to keep it on the DL. Oh, go girl. There are a lot like that.
- [14:19]
Reese Oliver
That's a Venn diagram I'm interested in looking at.
- [14:22]
Amanda Montel
Yes, very much so.
- [14:24]
Federica Brandi
A lot of people I know in my personal military ravers.
- [14:28]
Reese Oliver
Military reaper. What a turd of phrase.
- [14:31]
Amanda Montel
But you know, it makes perfect sense because the military is a kind of cult that is obviously dogmatic, rigid. You cannot have a freaking illicit drug in your system. And raving is kind of the perfect counterpoint to that where you get to like undo every piece of the military.
- [14:53]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, they're like the ends of the horseshoe. You get the complete spectrum of like the human experience, which is kind of what you were alluding to us, Federica, in your email you described raving as an epicenter for an enormous cultural movement, complete with its own set of values, traditions, rituals and group based identities. Which, like obviously makes it a perfect topic for this show. But like a whole code of ethics and values. When I read that, even though I've perceived rave culture on the Internet, and while I get the notion that the people in it are very involved, a code of ethics seems a little intense. Can you tell us a little bit more about this code of conduct and how it came to be the law of the land in rave world, so to speak.
- [15:34]
Federica Brandi
First of all, when you say it like that, it does sound like super intense. There is a sort of like code of conduct, as in, like, nobody's gonna beat you up if you don't do it. You're not in danger. But there is A what I would call kind of a core tenant of rave culture, which is Plur culture. Plur, which stands for peace, love, unity and respect. And it's, I would say, like the raver's creed. It's been a huge part of the rave scene since the 90s. And legend has it, if I remember correct, the term peace, love, unity and respect being kind of like an anthem for the rave culture started in 1993 with DJ Frankie Bones, when he interrupted a fight that broke out of one of his raves. And he came on the microphone and basically was like, hey, guys, if you don't start showing some peace, love, unity and respect, I'll break your faces. Which that phrasing just in and of itself is like, fantastic. Behave or else love each other. I'll break your faces. That appeals to me.
- [16:26]
Amanda Montel
Commit to non violence or I will you up culty for sure.
- [16:31]
Federica Brandi
Right? It really spread, and this is, I would say, particular to US rave culture, because rape culture in the United States and rape culture in other parts of the world, like, say, Europe, have different kind of evolutionary tracks. Dance music and raves have been kind of more part of the mainstream in Europe for a longer time. I would say, with the exception of maybe like the uk, it also had a long stand as being a very underground thing, and it still kind of is in some ways. But here in the United States in particular, the evolution of Plurk culture has been a core part of rape culture. There's even like a little handshake that you do.
- [17:02]
Amanda Montel
We love. That is a square on our proverbial bingo card. We love a handshake.
- [17:10]
Federica Brandi
I'm not sure as far as the history of when that came about, but what also came out of the 90s is candy culture and candy kids. Candy spelled as in K A N D. I. I have a bag full of candy that I've made over the years, and it's just made of little plastic beads.
- [17:25]
Reese Oliver
They're beautiful for the viewers. When we first hopped on this, I complimented Federico's scarf. And then she told me that it was part of this whole elaborate uniform in rave culture. She brought all of the doohickeys with her. So can you please explain the uniform in depth?
- [17:43]
Federica Brandi
Yes. So it's like a whole history. I'll try to kind of summarize it going back to the 1990s again with the rise of pluriculture. There's also candy kids and candy culture, which I would say is probably like the first kind of rave uniform that we come across, especially here in the United States, bright colors. It's very kind of countercultural and it's kind of fashion adopting the kind of spirit of fun and rebellion. And it's very much been influenced by previous counterculture movements, especially, you know, the hippie movement, 1960s counterculture movement, the hip hop movement. It's built on the back of other counterculture movements. And I guess it's important to note that rave culture at its core and its foundation originated as music as an instrument and avenue for a counterculture movement, emphasis on culture.
- [18:27]
Amanda Montel
Because I don't know that there is a cult surrounding Tchaikovsky or romantic classical music or another genre that doesn't immediately call to mind a uniform rituals, a code of ethics, so to speak. But when you're describing the aesthetic and the bright colors and how it comes with this rebellious perspective, I can easily see the trajectory from the sort of psychedelic, art nouveau inspired Woodstock aesthet, which you know, of course, as we know, was a reaction to the Vietnam War and so much of the tumult that was going on in the 60s and 70s. From there, the next natural step, at least being able to trace it in retrospect, would be kind of like a neon take on rebelliousness and counterculture and bright colors. Because that's what I associate with the kind of like X Files Y sci fi vibe of the 90s. Like in the 70s, if we're talking about classic culture cults, that's when you saw the rise of the Church of Aphrodite and the Children of God and all these sort of Christian derived New Age sects. And then in the 90s you had cults like Heaven's Gate. They were these sort of digital technology inspired cults that felt like the next natural step. So if you're working your way back from like the extreme get the fuck out edge to music culture, I can see how like, I don't know, Fleetwood Mac is to the Church of Aphrodite and Transcendental Meditation the way that rave culture is to Heaven's Gate.
- [20:05]
Reese Oliver
Yes, the different denominations of aesthetics into the different denominations of culty spiritual beliefs.
- [20:11]
Amanda Montel
They'Re all in alignment, if anyone followed me on that. Bless you.
- [20:17]
Federica Brandi
Honestly, I appreciate the way your mind works. I think I get it. Although I can't say I've ever heard of anyone equating race to the Evansgate cult.
- [20:26]
Amanda Montel
Well, only in that they're both a product of their time and they're both sort of taking the baton of a former culty tradition. So in the 70s, on the extreme get the fuck out side, you've got the Barobed new agers and in the 90s you have people who think that a spaceship is going to take them to the kingdom of heaven because digital technology was inspiring a real sci fi moment during that time that was different than the sci fi of the 70s. So anyway, all to say, there is a reason why cult in Scare Quotes aesthetics are the way they are historically and sociologically.
- [21:05]
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- [23:08]
Amanda Montel
Back to the point at hand, can you talk a little bit more about the specifics of that rave uniform and what they mean?
- [23:15]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, sure. And I think. I think building off of what you're saying with the technology influences electronic music. It was like the thing of the future, especially in the 90s, when electronic music was still kind of in its nascent era and it was evolving. And rave culture has always been about, like, future vision and this idea of building a new microcosm of society, a place where people who feel like maybe they don't belong so well in the outside world, who feel a little bit broken and lost or are a little bit more creative than others, can come together. It's all about the. This sense of new community. And you can really see that, like, reflected in how distinct rave fashion is, especially in the United States. And things have gotten pretty wild here in the US as far as how extra. I don't know. It's the best way to put it. Rave outfits are but rave outfit essentials, right? You get your candy. For those who can't see, I am holding up a cuff that I made out of Perler beads. So candy. This is actually kind of like a point of contention in the rave scene nowadays. And I'll get to that later. But it is considered kind of like the core of the rave uniform. It's made up of these little plastic beads, and a lot of times they have sayings on them. They're worn typically around the wrists or around your neck. You can also add other accessories called pearlers. Candy is traded as a way to just, like, meet friends. It's just like a fun activity. Doing. That's where you do the plural handshake. So break it down. If you're wearing candy around your wrists and you want to trade candy with someone else, it's like a way of ravers greeting each other and saying, hello, I see you. It's a sort of in group out, group thing where you show like, yes, I see that you're here. I'm letting you know that you belong here.
- [24:50]
Reese Oliver
The Nexium sash.
- [24:51]
Federica Brandi
Sure. Version of that.
- [24:54]
Amanda Montel
Or a Taylor Swift friendship bracelet.
- [24:56]
Reese Oliver
I was going to say, have the swifties reached the handshake level yet? I don't know if they're that advanced.
- [25:00]
Federica Brandi
No, they're not at handshake level yet. They just trade them to each other. But that's essentially what candy is. It's a sort of friendship bracelet. Right. So it's been around in rape culture since the 90s. And when you go to trade with somebody, you both hold your hands up to each other like this. You make a peace sign and they go, go, peace. And then you make a little heart with each other and you go Love. And then you bring your hands just together and that's unity. And then you like wrap each other. Respect. And then you trade bracelets.
- [25:27]
Reese Oliver
Pov, you're an array. You're doing the handshake.
- [25:30]
Amanda Montel
This is how you know that this is a good cult or like a compelling one. Because like f. The second people start doing weird things with their hands, I'm like, let me try.
- [25:39]
Reese Oliver
Shiny, shiny.
- [25:40]
Federica Brandi
So pov, peace, love, unity. And you would just bring your hands together like this. Unity. And then respect. And you grip each other's hands like this. And then I would pass the bracelet onto the person's wrist like that. And then you do it with each other.
- [25:57]
Amanda Montel
Cute, intimate.
- [25:59]
Federica Brandi
It is. And I think it's a lovely aspect of the culture. Some people take a lot of time to craft really exceptionally well made pieces and elaborate pieces and spread positive loving messages or funny things. It's a custom of, of acceptance. And it's just like a little token that you can give to somebody to make them smile and maybe make them laugh or give an encouraging message. It's just, it's a little act of love.
- [26:22]
Reese Oliver
I find that really sweet. Would you say that in the journey from like casual EDM, music enjoyer, dance music enjoyer, to like full on raver, that, that ritual and learning, that is a large part of that evolution?
- [26:37]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, I consider it kind of a little rite of passage. I know a lot of people love giving first time ravers their first candy and teaching them how to plur. So I remember like getting my first pieces of candy from people and I was like, oh, like I'm being accepted. You know, it definitely can be seen as a rite of passage.
- [26:53]
Amanda Montel
Okay, so looking at all of this so far through a cult lens, you've got your rituals which serve as bonding connective tissue and also serve to identify who is is a part of us and who is not. You've got a slight hierarchy because there are the people who are into this enough to be able to engage in these rituals, and there are those who are more casual, who aren't quite there yet. There's the special lingo, there's the uniform. We weren't of rave age when raves became popularized, but it's still called to you. So clearly you were interested in belonging and in all of the fun things that occult has to offer. But you were attracted to raves in particular. Not jam bands, not Taylor Swift, not K pop, not Burning man, raves. So from your personal perspective, why do you think that was?
- [27:51]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, well, first and foremost, the music, electronic Music just hits my brain in a way that just clicks with me. And so that's really what pulled me in, I would say. I think the culture as well is one that promotes these concepts of acceptance and belonging. And what I see a lot of times in rave culture is that it provides a sort of refuge for people. It always has been that way since its very inception. A gathering space for kind of the weird kids, for people who may feel ostracized in society, who have gone through life experiences that have left them a little lost and broken perhaps, and people that just are sick of the conformity, who are just not satisfied with like going to their job and being crouched over a desk all day. It's like other music cultures, I would say. But I think rave culture specifically is so based on these concepts of like the peace, love, unity, respect that. It really is kind of a refuge for people. It became a refuge for me as someone who came here from a different country. I had a lot of experiences in my life growing up where I always felt like I was always kind of other and you know, the weird kid, AKA neurodivergent, which I later found out. But besides the music aspect, I think what made me really fall in love with rave culture was just that sense of like finding, finding, belonging, acceptance and a source of like unconditional love, which I think is always something that humans are seeking and especially in today's era and just the way the world is right now and as community starved as we are, particularly in the United States, it's a major draw.
- [29:25]
Amanda Montel
Thank you for that. That was such a vulnerable sort of relatable breakdown of why these cultish communities, for better and for worse, appeal to people, especially during times personally when they feel a lack of belonging, but also globally, culturally, when things feel unpredictable and scary and tumultuous, why certain subcultures can provide an alternative way of being. And especially when, for whatever reason, nature nurture some combination of the two, an aesthetic really clicks with you. Robot blee bloops and squidle paps and. And a bright pashmina as you're wearing and fun sensory bracelets like. I can so easily see how that would become your life.
- [30:13]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, it's like a kid in a candy store effect a kid in a.
- [30:16]
Amanda Montel
Candy with a K store.
- [30:21]
Federica Brandi
Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and. And everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.
- [30:35]
Amanda Montel
Jack Jack and Coke. Shot of Jack.
- [30:38]
Federica Brandi
Jack Daniels, please. Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof this episode.
- [30:52]
Unknown
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- [31:23]
Amanda Montel
The positive when we're talking about cultish communities, there has to be something negative or at least like sketchy, maybe like a little power exploitative, I don't know. We were wondering if you could talk about how power is distributed in rave culture. Are there people who've emerged as cult leaders of sorts? Have there ever emerged any artists or influencer types? I don't know what the structure might be, but has anyone ever emerged who's tried to threaten that, that peace, love and acceptance tenet?
- [31:57]
Federica Brandi
That's a great question. There is no explicit power structure in rave culture, right? There's no like ultimate leader of the ravers. There's no such thing. There are different influential individuals and groups out there, though, of course, artists being big ones. And rape culture is very diverse. There's a lot of different sub genres and subgroups, like different subcultures. There are different influential people within each of those subcultures. So even though there's no like rigid power structure, I would say you start running into some real problems when you look at the industry. And if you're talking about artists, yeah, I can give you one pretty much legit cult leader. Bassnector. I don't know if I'll be able to get into the full details of it, but rave culture, as much as it purports to be built on these ideas of peace, love, unity and respect. There are a lot of issues within rape culture and there are things that are being talked about. I myself try to be an advocate and somebody who really talks about those issues that contradict those values. And the dance music industry industry has quite a reputation for harboring individuals who are very toxic and have caused immense amount of harm to people. One of those people being Lauren Ashton, AKA Bass Nectar. This is no secret. It's a huge thing in the dance Music community. So Ashton was an American dj. He used to be one of my favorite artists. He really helped push the bass music scene forward back in the, I would say like 2000s. And in 2017, as part of the MeToo movement, there was a whole slew of allegations that came out against him for sexual assault, many of which he is going to trial for now. There are many other artists like this. I can't even, like, keep track of how many artists out there are facing abuse allegations and sexual assault, particularly because, unfortunately, what happens with artists and when artists are kind of help on a pedestal in the way that they are in the dance music scene and just in culture in general, I don't think this is even exclusive to the dance music community. We live in a society which puts musicians, actors, etcetera, On a pedestal. And there will always be a segment of supporters and followers who think they can do no wrong. And Lauren Ashton Bass Nectar is a prime example of this. He has become of the pariah of the dance music scene in general. Most of the dance music scene has moved on from him. He's a big Persona non grata in the dance music scene. Yet still, no matter how many sexual assault charges this man faces, he has this like, cult like following of people who are just obsessed with him. And when he was in his heyday, he was really an influential artist and he's very much tied in with like the wook scene. I should probably explain what a wook is, is.
- [34:27]
Amanda Montel
Please, please do.
- [34:28]
Federica Brandi
Part of one of the subcultures of rape culture there is the wok culture, which ravers listening to this podcast might get their feathers ruffled. But generally speaking, a wook refers to. Basically it's like a dirty rave hippie. Like, picture deadhead roadies that follow the band everywhere and just are in it for the drug burnout. Right? It's the kind of more negative connotation. It's a version of that. But within, like the dance music community specifically, usually the stereotypical W book. Smells bad, never pays for anything, is on like a million different drugs at once. Kind of deadbeat burnout person. And there's a stereotype of this kind of person being associated with base Nectar followers.
- [35:06]
Amanda Montel
Now that you say it, and I'm gonna get skewered for this. I'm sure I'm so on the outside of it that when I think of rave culture, like, forgive me, I barely even think about the music. Like, I think about the rave category of fashion on Dolls Kill. You know, I think of dressing up, up in like, colorful Slash, sort of maybe silvery, futuristic kind of clothes, I think of doing ecstasy or doing party drugs. Like that's kind of what I think of. But now that you bring it up, I mean, my partner works in the music industry and he has crossed paths with electronic DJ types. And thus I've crossed paths with one or two of these people as well. And there is this, this very sort of arrogant, douchey, sorry, male cult leader, low key energy to a lot of these DJ bros. The artist space in electronic music appears to me as an outsider who's only like brushed up against this space. So male dominated. And these dudes, like have an aesthetic that is so clockable it's crazy. We were kind of saying jokingly and hyperbolically that rave culture was born of the same time period that gave us Heaven's Gate. But I have to say that, like the sort of tech themes that infused so many 90s era get the fuck out level cults that were also helmed by men and also came with a lot of power abuse might also be responsible for so much of the misogyny within rave culture. Because there is kind of a. I'm gonna sound stupid, but bear with me. There's kind of a computery thing going on with Edmund. Stem is a historically male dominated industry. And like, I think like folk music or whatever, it feels like a genre that's slightly more open to women, just like stereotypically because it's like, oh, women don't know how to use software. Right. Like, so I think that's a good point. Maybe that's a part of it.
- [37:05]
Federica Brandi
I think you're right with that too.
- [37:07]
Amanda Montel
Like, how would you kind of unpack the gender dynamics of this culture here? Because that's such a culty part of it.
- [37:12]
Federica Brandi
From what I can tell, 1, 1000%. I'm really glad you bring that up. It is. And it's a problem if you're talking about the music industry, the music side of rape culture and the industry side of EDM dance music culture. What you have it. Yeah. It is full of inequality. The male douche bros. It's a stereotype for a reason. Because it is so heavily male dominated. Race also plays into that as well. When you picture a DJ or music producer, what do you picture? Probably a white dude in a Venus neck, right?
- [37:40]
Reese Oliver
Cody Ko.
- [37:41]
Federica Brandi
Yeah. The EDM industry, though it might not be implicit. It has a sexism problem, it has a misogyny problem, it has a racial diversity problem. And this is something that has been known and it is known to the point that there are festivals that make female exclusive lineups. I know, like for us here at my company, Idio Maniac, one of the things we try to do is highlight diverse artists. And when we do interviews, we try to highlight as much diversity as we can. But it's enough of a problem that it has to be talked about explicitly as how do we represent more diversity because it's so lacking as compared to other music genres. And I don't know the inner workings of the music industry well enough to give you a detailed explanation as to why it is the way it is, but I can tell you, yes, it is very bro y. And within that kind of masculine bro culture, there is rape culture. With what happened with Lauren Ashton and other artists who have been accused of things like sexual assault. Of course, there are not only the supporters who will support them no matter what they do or say. Because of that sort of halo effect.
- [38:42]
Amanda Montel
There is a worship aspect that is so palpable in music spaces in general. And when coupled with all of the problematic aspects that you're naming and all of the really compelling good parts like the aesthetic and the language and the uniform and whatever, it seems like it could be really hard to step back from.
- [39:02]
Reese Oliver
Yeah. Someone posted a photo on Twitter the other day from the inside of their megachurch complaining about someone wearing a hat. And the picture kind of blew up because people were like, this church has led lights in it. Why are you complaining about like the sanctity of a hat? And then the conversation just kind of spiraled into why church and concerts are becoming more and more synonymous. And I feel like that's happening on both ends of the spectrum. It's not just the mega churches are getting rapier, the raves are getting churchier.
- [39:27]
Federica Brandi
Oh my God, that's so good. Yeah. There is a cult like worship of artists, but not everybody participates in that. I think it's important to say that these are grand generalizations. And for every person who who sees DJs as some core sort of God, there are people who see them as human and are just there for the music and hang out with their friends. Like it really depends on the person in the certain subgroups. Like some subgroups are much cultier than others. So there is that to keep in mind. But the bro equulture within the industry, we can see the ways in which it has been problematic and has even allowed for abuse to happen. There's also things like financial abuse going on, artists stealing from each other. Race based discrimination is another. There are elephants in the room. That people know they exist. But from the industry side, it's really kept on the down low. And I think it's important to say, like I'm speaking for myself, I'm not speaking for idiomaniac. Right. Like this is my observation.
- [40:23]
Reese Oliver
Allegedly.
- [40:24]
Federica Brandi
The. Allegedly.
- [40:24]
Amanda Montel
Allegedly.
- [40:25]
Federica Brandi
Yeah. I think the industry could be doing a lot better job of one, holding artists, producers, managers and people in the high ranks of the industry accountable, but also taking care of its people, people. Another big problem in the industry side is artists just being like milked all they can for their money. Burnout among artists from touring, from having to sell. And now artists have to do so much more than just make music. You have to be your own social media producers. They have to be doing all sorts of extra things. And from what I've heard from people who are artists in the scene, there's also this tremendous pressure to fulfill all these demands that has made some artists literally sick and have to take breaks from touring, from performing. And that's like the best outcome because the worst outcome, unfortunately, maybe jumping to conclusions, but the worst outcomes is some artists don't survive suicides, overdose deaths, et cetera, like famously Avicii. And you see this in the music entertainment industry everywhere. Right. I guess it's one of the ways in which the cult of the entertainment industry in general and capitalism shows up in dance music and rape culture, where there is this immense pressure on artists to perform and be an idol and market themselves and be market and be all these things. And it's a condition where many artists get burnt out and don't get proper support and some of them end up badly hurt from it.
- [41:47]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, I really like what you have been saying about these problems existing in other areas of the entertainment industry as well, and them kind of just being reflected in a specific way. As far as rave culture goes. One of those things that I tend to perceive as a pretty big tenet of rave culture, at least from like the public perception, is the drug which I know exists everywhere in the entertainment industry. It's a problem that's talked about constantly. But it seems like amongst all levels of the power structure in rape culture, drug use is an encouraged, if not mandatory part. Would you say that there is pressure to partake in that that you would describe as culty, or does it vary amongst denominations, would you say?
- [42:31]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, that is a good question. Because you're right, some, since basically the beginning of rave culture, there has been an association with drugs. And personally, I'm not really sure why electronic music and raves in particular get such a bad rep for drug use when it is present in pretty much all other music scenes.
- [42:52]
Amanda Montel
Fair.
- [42:52]
Federica Brandi
My theory is it might have something to do with just the timing of when rape culture evolved in the 80s and 90s and at the peak of the post Reagan war on drugs moral panic era. And it was also coincided with the rise in multimedia and like just more media coverage and all these other kind of things happening in the outside world that made it much more visible. And it coincided with this era of like massive moral panic around drugs. However, that said, it absolutely is a prominent aspect of rape culture. We can't deny it. It's interesting because when you talk about drugs in the rap scene, you kind of get these two camps of people and these two ideologies. The people who are very outspoken about promoting the idea that raving is not all about the drugs. People like, come on, let's figure it out. It's prevalent everywhere. But then there's also the other side where it's like, well, yeah, but it is a big part of the scene. And although I don't think there is a mandatory expectation, I think that would be going too far as to say that it's expected or that you're going to encounter a lot of pressure. However, of course that depends on your friend group and your social surroundings. Right. If you're hanging out with a bunch of people that make you feel bad about not using drugs, or that judge you for being sober, etc. Maybe, maybe those are not good friends. Like, it's no different than the rest of life. But it's just, I think the frequency of exposure to drug culture in rave scenes that make it stand out.
- [44:14]
Amanda Montel
Your point about the timing of rave culture exploding in the 90s, when Reagan's war on drugs was in its heyday, really makes a lot of sense.
- [44:24]
Federica Brandi
That's my theory. I mean, that's the only reason I can think it would make such a big hullabaloo, I guess, compared to literally every other music scene. And then it became known, I think because that became something that was so closely associated to rave culture. There is a segment of people who are drawn to rapes for the drug culture and the party scene. Yes, there are certainly a segment of people who come to raves to get fucked up. There's party culture in the rape scene. It's nightlife and drug use and people who come to get fucked up. But it is important to say, no, it is not the one all be all of rave culture. I think it's just like more widely accepted as being part of the culture. And it's talked about more openly. It's a lot more broad, visible. So if you are somebody who's maybe more susceptible to peer pressure, you can feel a tremendous amount of pressure to participate. And I think it's worth noting that there is a sobriety movement happening in the rave scene. There's a lot of talk of, like, sober ravers talking about their experiences and going sober and even like people making dedicated groups for sober raving. So were parties. There certainly is a mindfulness around drugs. And I would say, if anything, there's more education. I see more open discussion about harm reduction and education around substances within the rave scene than I do in most other places in like, the rest of life in other parts of society.
- [45:41]
Amanda Montel
Yeah.
- [45:41]
Federica Brandi
And I think that's a good thing.
- [45:42]
Amanda Montel
It's an invitation for everyone to make the experience more custom to them and therefore less culty. So the last question that I want to ask before our next segment is just a question about the way that that rave culture is mainstreaming. So in a piece for the New Yorker titled Reimagining Underground Rave Culture, reporter Emily Witt wrote about the exclusivity factor of the cult of raves. She said, quote, many underground parties and clubs have no photos policies. And some larger events explicitly request that no journalistic features be written about them without permission. Some might promote themselves with cryptic flyers, start at weird hours, and use other strategies of hiding in plain sight to protect themselves and signal their integrity to those those who will know. So there are some us versus them dynamics baked into that paragraph. We have learned that rave culture is moving farther above ground. Obviously you can buy rave inspired outfits on dolls.
- [46:45]
Federica Brandi
Kill.
- [46:46]
Amanda Montel
There are the sober raves that you mentioned that happen during the daytime. Could you talk about this sort of mainstreaming of rave culture and is there a reaction to it? Is that making the overall cult cultier in your opinion, somehow?
- [47:01]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, this is a huge contention point right now. Rave culture and, well, it's dance music specifically, has become much more commodified than it used to be. Right. It used to be an underground movement. And then what you see in around the late 2000s and early 2010s is this sort of rebrandification of dance music. And that's where you get the term edm, electronic dance music. It was a literal rebranding by American media to repackage and rebrand electronic dance music music. And it was very successful. You saw the rise of, like, David Guetta performing pieces that went viral and were played on the radio. And then you saw other big names like Skrillex, Deadmau5, all coming out of that era. So this kind of rebrandification effort was wildly successful and you started to see the rise of big ticket, multi day major music festivals. And so ever since probably the mid 2010s and nowadays it's become steadily more mainstream or visible and accepted by the mainstream. I think part of that is in large part due to social media and just the fact that it's much more visible and accessible to people in the mainstream. And you also have this kind of commercialization of raves in music festivals. You have massive corporate run music festivals now. It's been co opted by the fashion industry and fast fashion particularly. It's become much more of a mainstream kind of commercialized experience experience. And it has caused a divide. A lot of people are feeling frustrated at this. And I would say it's almost to the point where the commercialized version of music festivals and raves has become so saturated that people are mad.
- [48:35]
Amanda Montel
It's not even a cult anymore.
- [48:37]
Federica Brandi
Literally. People are getting mad about like, oh, Plura's dead. There's a lot more gatekeeping now. And so what I think you're seeing is this sort of resurgence, this re rise of underground culture. Not because raves are illegal like in the old days of the race rave era, like in the 90s, but as a reaction to the mainstream spread and the commercialization of raves.
- [48:59]
Amanda Montel
It feels like a threat.
- [49:00]
Reese Oliver
The cycle re begins.
- [49:02]
Amanda Montel
Yes, yes, totally.
- [49:04]
Federica Brandi
And I think it makes sense because there are still a segment of people who use these spaces as a sort of sanctuary. Right? And it can be, you know, maybe somebody's only time to kind of let loose and break free from the pressures of this hectic, crazy life that we live in.
- [49:18]
Amanda Montel
And if there are a bunch of Instagram girlies infiltrating, that's gonna suck.
- [49:22]
Federica Brandi
Which feels bad because I am one of those Instagram Instagram girly.
- [49:24]
Amanda Montel
So no, you've been at this since 2011, right?
- [49:29]
Reese Oliver
She's an OG, not a poser.
- [49:32]
Federica Brandi
Thank you. Thank you. Yes, I, I appreciate, like I'm actually part of the scene and I actually have to say, like, I'm here for the no phone events.
- [49:41]
Amanda Montel
Make it more like the Sabbath. Churchify is sacred.
- [49:46]
Federica Brandi
It really is. Like to some people it is a sacred space, like a sacred experience. And I think it's still a beneficial thing for people to like legitimately go and like connect with people, people and just have a little bit of escapism because a little bit of Escapism is fine, and that's healthy. It's when somebody gets too involved in the escapism. We all need a little bit of escapism.
- [50:05]
Amanda Montel
When there's too much kayfabe.
- [50:08]
Federica Brandi
Yeah.
- [50:15]
Amanda Montel
Okay, We've been talking for a while. I want to transition into our game.
- [50:20]
Reese Oliver
We are going to play Rave or Rebuke. So we are to give you two culty pop culture figures, and you are to decide with whom you would rave and who you would rebuke. It's pretty simple.
- [50:32]
Federica Brandi
Okay, hit me.
- [50:33]
Reese Oliver
Demi Moore or Margaret Qualley?
- [50:35]
Federica Brandi
Demi Moore. Well, I don't really know Margaret quality very well, so.
- [50:38]
Amanda Montel
Oh, fair. You want to rave with who you know.
- [50:40]
Federica Brandi
Yeah. But also, like, Demi Moore. I just. She's. She's just a cool lady, man.
- [50:45]
Amanda Montel
So cool. Golden Globe winner.
- [50:47]
Federica Brandi
Yeah.
- [50:47]
Amanda Montel
As of last night.
- [50:48]
Federica Brandi
Yeah.
- [50:49]
Amanda Montel
Okay. Elon Musk or Jeff? J.D. vance.
- [50:52]
Federica Brandi
Oh, God, fine. I guess I would. I mean, Revuke. J.D. vance.
- [50:59]
Reese Oliver
I no, like, Elon dated Grimes, so I feel like he, like, at least might have decent taste in, like, dance music.
- [51:05]
Amanda Montel
Yeah.
- [51:05]
Federica Brandi
Like, I. I'm not a fan of the guy, but I feel like at least you'd be able to, like, kind of get with vibes more.
- [51:10]
Amanda Montel
Oh, my God. Speaking of Heaven's Gate 2.0.
- [51:14]
Federica Brandi
Oh, that's a whole.
- [51:16]
Amanda Montel
He is a literally trying to trust me. We have an episode on Elon Musk, but we are due for a fucking update. All right, next round, rave or rebuke?
- [51:27]
Reese Oliver
Nicki Minaj or Mr. Beast?
- [51:30]
Federica Brandi
Nicki Minaj. Rave. She's my homie. You know what? She's. She's like, og. Like, extra in your face energy. We are the same people. I get it in that sense.
- [51:41]
Amanda Montel
All right, this next one is, like, very of the moment, so because. Because this episode is airing in March of 2025. I don't even know if people will care anymore. And Federica, I don't even know if you care right now, but rave or rebuke. Blake Lively or Justin Baldoni?
- [51:57]
Federica Brandi
Rebuke Justin or Rave? Blake Lively. Because I still love her from the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.
- [52:03]
Reese Oliver
She got womaned. She got woman.
- [52:06]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, she did. No.
- [52:08]
Amanda Montel
Oh, my God. Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants slaps.
- [52:12]
Federica Brandi
Oh, isn't forever Blake Lev.
- [52:14]
Amanda Montel
And we grant you that. We do.
- [52:15]
Reese Oliver
We do. Another very topical ask, but Rave or rebuke. Sabrina Carpenter or Luigi Mangione.
- [52:21]
Federica Brandi
Oh, girl.
- [52:22]
Reese Oliver
I know. I'm sorry. Hard choice.
- [52:24]
Federica Brandi
You know what? Fuck it. Luigi, we're hanging with you.
- [52:27]
Reese Oliver
You're raving with Luigi.
- [52:28]
Federica Brandi
Yes.
- [52:29]
Amanda Montel
Oh my God. Oh, my God. It says so much. It says so much about the culture that birthed you.
- [52:37]
Reese Oliver
That was his choice.
- [52:38]
Federica Brandi
I'm not speaking. I'm not necessarily speaking behalf of ravers there. That is just like my personal. You know what?
- [52:44]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, of course.
- [52:45]
Federica Brandi
That is the era we live in right now. Pop off.
- [52:49]
Amanda Montel
Oh my God. Wow. Incredible. Federica, thank you so much for pitching this episode of Sounds Like a Cult, for joining us, for spilling the tea. If folks want to keep up with you and your writings and your general ravelry, where can they do that?
- [53:06]
Federica Brandi
Yeah, so you can follow me at the Roving Raver. That's the Roving Raven R O V I N G on Instagram. And then you can also look me up on EDM Maniac's website. I'm an editorial writer for them.
- [53:20]
Amanda Montel
Thank you so much.
- [53:22]
Federica Brandi
Thanks. Thank you guys. This was so fun.
- [53:31]
Amanda Montel
So, Reese, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which one do you. Do you think the cult of raves falls into?
- [53:45]
Reese Oliver
I think raves in their current state. I'm gonna call them a Get the Out. Honestly.
- [53:54]
Federica Brandi
What?
- [53:55]
Reese Oliver
I'm gonna call them a get the out because I just think they're headed in a bad direction.
- [53:59]
Amanda Montel
You would look, darling Federica, our friend in the face and say, no more raves for you, girlfriend. No, no, no, no.
- [54:08]
Federica Brandi
Not like.
- [54:09]
Reese Oliver
Well, then I guess. I don't know. I find the current stakeholders in the.
- [54:13]
Amanda Montel
Rave world to be problematic.
- [54:16]
Reese Oliver
What I have learned is that what raves initially were and once were and have the potential to be, I fully love and support, like, peace, love, unity, respect.
- [54:25]
Federica Brandi
Fuck yeah.
- [54:26]
Reese Oliver
But like, DJs touching women. Fuck no.
- [54:31]
Amanda Montel
Yeah, that's so fair. Sorry I yelled at you.
- [54:34]
Reese Oliver
Well, no, I don't know.
- [54:36]
Amanda Montel
Like now.
- [54:36]
Reese Oliver
How much should I change my rating?
- [54:38]
Amanda Montel
No, don't change your rating. It's been locked. No, I think that's very interesting. For me, it really is jarring. The juxtaposition of how beautiful and bright and colorful and kind certain grassroots elements of rave culture can be when held next to the misogyny and the abuse and the risk of suicide and the rest, like that juxtaposition really is, is stark and culty as hell. Like, it's one of the cultiest juxtapositions of a music culture that we've discussed on the show. Yeah, normally the best case scenario and the worst case scenario are a little closer together here. They're really far apart. But the thing is, I think something is a Get the fuck out when the slip and slide into exploitation is enough inevitable. And I actually don't think that that's true here. I do think there is a version of rave culture that is a watch your back.
- [55:39]
Reese Oliver
No, that is a really good point. I do agree. But I still think that even the most surface level engagement with rave culture, you're still buying clothes made by children to forget about your life's troubles in like.
- [55:52]
Amanda Montel
Well, okay, so that is problematic and horrible. But is it culty is the thing. Like this is where conversations on the show can start to get really confusing. We almost need like a GR with four axes. There is a lot to keep track of. Like something can be bad but not culty. Something can be good and culty. Something can be bad and culty. And of course something can be good and not culty.
- [56:18]
Reese Oliver
Yeah.
- [56:19]
Amanda Montel
So I think some of the awful aspects of rave culture, like the fast fashion and the whatnot, those are a different cult's fault maybe.
- [56:28]
Reese Oliver
Okay.
- [56:28]
Amanda Montel
And some of them are rave culture's fault. And this is why this show is not science. You know what? I'm gonna gonna give my intuitive response. I feel in my heart that it is a hardcore, hardcore watch your back because I don't want to rob people that this means something to of every single little piece of it. Do you know what I'm saying?
- [56:52]
Reese Oliver
Maybe I think if you find community and if you find a wholesome form of acceptance that you can't find anywhere else and you are self aware enough to hold yourself back from maybe where that hedonism leads to more unsavory behaviors, then I think absolutely go on with your bad self.
- [57:11]
Amanda Montel
Okay. It's Watch your backboarding on get the out maybe is what we've gotten ourselves too.
- [57:16]
Reese Oliver
Yeah, all right.
- [57:17]
Amanda Montel
Maybe that's an unsatisfying ending, but such is life, you know, Sometimes we don't have closure, but that is our show.
- [57:25]
Reese Oliver
Thank you so much for listening.
- [57:27]
Amanda Montel
Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, so stay culty but not too culty. Sounds like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, the Language of Fanaticism which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult Cult on Instagram for all the discourse soundslikeacultpod or support us on Patreon to list to the show ad free at patreon.com sounds like a cult.
- [58:37]
Unknown
Imagine being on a vacation for a very long time. Now imagine saving money nightly while you do it. Sounds pretty great, right? With vrbo's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more. Our customers save an average of 10% when they book select properties for a week or longer. Just in case you needed another reason to extend that vacation book the Perfect Summer Getaway Today with VRBO Private Vacation Rentals. Your future self will thank you later.
- [59:07]
Amanda Montel
With the American Express Platinum Card, you can unlock over $1,500 in value annually with statement credits on select purchases and other benefits. That means getting access to even more of your favorite things, more jet setting, more trend setting, and more resetting and downward dog. The stage is set for you to do even more with the American Express Platinum part. Learn more at americanexpress.com. uS Explore Platinum Term Supply.