The Cult of Romance Novels

Summary

Sounds Like A Cult – "The Cult of Romance Novels" (February 10, 2026)

Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode of Sounds Like A Cult dives into the fervent world of romance novels, investigating whether the passionate community of readers and writers constitutes a “cult”—and, if so, which type. Hosts Amanda Montell and newly-minted co-host Iman Harirukia discuss the allure, rituals, lingo, and sometimes fraught dynamics that shape the romance novel universe, joined mid-episode by bestselling romance author Alexa Martin. Together, they unpack the joys, pitfalls, and social implications of romance novel fandom—from heated rivalry tattoos to fraught book cons and parasocial conflicts online.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Romance Novel Fandom: Passion, Devotion, and Pilgrimage

• Cultish Devotion:

  • Amanda admits being new to this world, but after immersing herself in romance audiobooks, she marvels at the sometimes rabid devotion:

  “I truly believe... that romance readers are one of, if not the most cult-like fandom in all of media.” (06:37, Amanda)

  • Iman shares personal experiences of seeing the same fans travel to multiple events, likening them to "peripatetic acolytes," and admits to herself becoming a "culty defender" of romance’s intrinsic value.

• All-Encompassing Engagement:

  • The hosts outline rituals: book conventions, author tours, and active participation in theory podcasts and fan groups.
  • Quote:

  "I've reread interconnected romantasy series, taking notes, looking for Easter eggs, and then listened to theory podcasts... I've been in the hole. And I feel very seen when other people can laugh at how culty this behavior is because it consumes your life when you're in it." (19:53, Iman)

2. Defining What Makes a Romance Novel

• Strict Criteria:

  • Iman succinctly defines the genre:
    • 1. Central love story drives the plot.
    • 2. Must end in a “happily ever after” (HEA). (10:53–11:32, Iman/Amanda)

• Romance vs. Love Stories:

  • Not all love stories are romances; the “happily ever after” is a non-negotiable.

3. Culty Lingo, Rituals, and Fan Practices

• Insider Language:

  • Acronyms abound: HEA (happily ever after), FMC/MMC (female/male main character), DNF (did not finish), TBR (to be read).
  • "Spice" vs. "smut" distinctions—"spice is what's sprinkled on top, it's not the full meal." (16:22, Iman)

• Tropes as Dogma:

  • Fans classify books obsessively by trope (enemies-to-lovers, only one bed, etc.), mirroring practices found in fanfiction and kink communities.
  • Amanda notes:

  "Communities that could be considered fringe or really insular... tend to develop insidery language. It builds solidarity. It makes everybody feel like they're part of an in-group." (16:22–17:41, Amanda)

• Fan Activities:

  • “Book cons,” “NSFW fan art," collector’s items, and enthusiastic theory-crafting parallel cult rituals.
  • Quote:

  “You could have an entire conversation and only use acronyms and no one would know what you were talking about.” (46:34, Iman)

4. The Online “Parish”: Review Culture and Author-Reader Power

• Review Culture is Intense:

  • Goodreads, Storygraph, BookTok—platforms where reviewer zeal can make (or break) authors.
  • Amanda recognizes the line between supportive community-building and toxic negativity fostered by algorithms:

    “Negativity is often encouraged algorithmically... A very low stakes hate train can then impact the long term career of an established author.” (25:41–27:46, Iman)

• Parasocial Dynamics:

  • Readers sometimes direct intense criticism toward authors over character choices, blurring lines between fiction and personal ethics.

• From Fan to Author:

  • Iman reflects on moving from follower to “co-cult leader” as a published romance novelist, experiencing the zeal from both sides:

    “The best experience in the world, honestly, for me, was going from being a cult member to being one of the co cult followers or co cult leaders, I should say.” (23:14, Iman)

5. Social and Political Ramifications

• Romance as Hope, Education, and Resistance:

  • The genre offers models for relationships and self-understanding, serving as unofficial sex ed and empowerment for women and marginalized readers in a sex-negative society.
  • Quote:

  “A lot of people find a real sense of inner strength from reading romance... They start to explore their own sexuality, ask for more from the people in their lives, and they feel like they owe that in a lot of ways to the romance genre...” (27:54, Iman)

• Romance as Both Escape and Activism:

  • Iman:

  “Romance can be two things at once... People benefit from picking up something light and fluffy... but the other side... is incredibly deep and inherently political... Romance novels are actually... interconnected to our sex education system.” (29:16–31:18, Iman)

6. Dark Sides: Scams, Exclusion, and “Cult” Pitfalls

• Conventions Gone Wrong:

  • The hosts recount a notorious 2025 book convention debacle (the “Fyre Fest” of romance), exposing the perils of overzealous event culture and consumerism. (32:52–34:19)

• Exclusivity and Diversity:

  • Systemic issues in publishing mean that BIPOC and queer authors are under-advanced, under-promoted, and often gatekept.
  • Ripped Bodice’s annual survey found only 11% of romance books published in 2025 were by authors of color. (40:25)

• Publishing as a Cultish Power Structure:

  • Heated Rivalry, a gay hockey romance turned hit series, left the author and publisher grappling with supply shortages and missed promotional opportunities—highlighting industry reluctance to bet on diverse stories.

7. Interview with Alexa Martin (54:00–69:31)

Alexa’s Story

• From Reader to Author:

  • Alexa began as a secretive writer—“I never actually thought I would really write. And then an idea came to me and I actually hid in my basement and started writing. Like, I didn’t even tell my husband.” (54:07, Alexa)
  • Her books draw on her experience in NFL circles (her husband played pro football), and she discusses the crossover between sports romance and real-life fandom.

• Tropes, Community, and Identity:

  • On tropes: “I love an enemies to lovers... I really love, like, writing second chance romance a lot.” (66:19, Alexa)
  • On the reading community: “Romance readers are always like, ‘I read 150 books.’ People are like, ‘No, you didn’t!’ But, like, they do...” (57:49, Alexa)

• On Author-Reader Dynamics:

  • “I feel like the readers have a lot of power. I think we’re so careful because it does feel like a genre that gets very easily and often disrespected...” (56:50, Alexa)
  • On drama: There have been cases of fans harassing models at conferences, or blurring lines between fiction and reality, but the majority of fans are positive and community-minded.

• Financial Costs:

  • From event travel to collector’s editions, full immersion in the cult comes with literal buy-in.

Fun and Insightful Moments

• Tattoos & Tropes:
  • Amanda considering a Heated Rivalry “Gimme Kiss” tattoo:

    “I’m about to get a $150 heated rivalry tattoo. And that’s a bit. And it’s for fun, but it’s also like, ‘Look how much of a fan I am.’” (60:06, Amanda)

• Would You Rather Game:
  • “Would you rather find yourself in a romance trope every time you meet someone, or realize all your hobbies are gateways to cults?”
    • Alexa: “I mean, I feel like right now, all of my hobbies are gateways to cults anyway.” (66:02, Alexa)
• Discussion about Omegaverse and culty rituals produces much laughter and bewilderment.

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Memorable Quotes

On Cultiness

• “They’re like peripatetic acolytes, like pilgrims.”
  (04:40, Amanda)

• “I love the two perspectives that we’re bringing today because you’re going to educate me so much... but also, I developed a fascination based on a documentary on Hulu called Naughty Books... there are some self-published erotica writers... who are multimillionaires.”
  (11:32, Amanda)

On Online Culture, Fandom, and Diversity

• “Negativity is often encouraged algorithmically... a very low stakes hate train can impact the long-term career of an established author.”
  (27:41, Iman)

• “There is this sort of, in some ways, codependency... I see it channeled for positivity way more... but, like all online culty book spaces, things snowball very quickly.”
  (28:42, Iman)

On Systemic Publishing Issues

• “These are usually white, straight, cis, able-bodied romances written by own voices... so [readers] have to then go out of their way to seek out diverse romances... it’s a catch-22.”
  (43:13, Iman)

On Community and Hope

• “...it makes people feel seen, it makes people feel connected. And romance isn’t just an exploration of romantic love, but of familial love, platonic love, self love. It’s a human character study.”
  (27:54, Iman)

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Key Timestamps

• [03:33] — Amanda and Iman introduce the topic: “...sometimes it shows up in a book club. I don’t know, a steamy spicy book club.”
• [06:37] — Amanda on romance readers as the most cult-like fandom.
• [10:53] — Iman breaks down what defines a romance novel.
• [15:17] — Intro to cult lingo (HEA, DNF, FMC/MMC, spice/smut).
• [19:52] — Iman discusses personal cult-like reading behaviors.
• [22:36] — Amanda and Iman discuss Goodreads drama and how parasocial relationships can become toxic.
• [27:54] — Iman: “...real magic of romance is that this is a genre that gives people hope.”
• [29:16] — Iman connects romance novels to sex education and empowerment for marginalized people.
• [32:52] — The “Fyre Fest” of romance cons.
• [40:25] — Only 11% of published romance novels are by BIPOC authors.
• [47:21] — Heated Rivalry’s lack of reprint: industry reluctance re: queer stories.
• [54:00] — Alexa Martin joins for interview.
• [58:30] — On fandom boundaries crossing into harassment.
• [66:02] — “Would You Rather” game with Alexa Martin.
• [69:50] — The verdict: Romance novels cult is a “Live Your Life,” with a “halo” of “Watch Your Back.”
• [70:47] — Amanda’s closing thoughts; reminders re: fandom boundaries.

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Conclusion: The Verdict

Final Cult Classification:
Iman: “Live your life.”
Amanda: “There is a halo of ‘watch your back’... but overall, you’re probably right. It’d feel irresponsible not to classify this as a ‘live your life.’” (69:50–71:10)

Final Reminders:
Iman: “Keep things on the page and not off it. Remember that just because someone may serve as inspiration for your favorite fan cast doesn’t mean that you have license to send them creepy DMs over Instagram.” (71:10, Iman)

In Short:
The community around romance novels has all the trappings of a cult—lingo, rituals, adulation, dogma, and occasional drama—but is ultimately a “cult” powered by joy, inclusivity, hope, and collective healing. However, as with all passionate communities, mindfulness of boundaries is key.

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For listeners new or old to the world of romance novels, this episode reveals the subculture’s inviting charms, insular quirks, and ongoing struggles, offering both a thorough primer and an honest look at its shadow sides.

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Notable Guests:

• Iman Harirukia: Author and co-host, newly added to the regular roster.
• Alexa Martin: USA Today bestselling romance author; shares perspective on fandom, industry pressures, and cultural meaning.

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*For more on the “cult of romance novels” or related literary “cults,” follow @soundslikeacultpod on Instagram or check out Amanda Montell’s Cultish: The Language of Fanaticism.

Transcript

[Amanda Montell]

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[Iman Harirukia]

I was thinking about that because you and I had a little banter about heated rivalry. And I would say since then the extent to which we have discussed heated rivalry has Upshot. What, 110%?

[Amanda Montell]

I'm actually getting a heated rivalry. Flash tattoo. I'm getting Gimme Kiss.

[Iman Harirukia]

Gimme Kiss. Oh my gosh, I die.

[Amanda Montell]

I'm so excited.

[Iman Harirukia]

Gimme Keys, tramp stamp.

[Amanda Montell]

Should I?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

Do I dare?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

The point is Alexa, that I didn't understand this cult at all when we recorded our intro because this isn't my literary world. But I now am dipping my ass in. I started listening to Rachel Reed's series on audio. I've never done such a thing.

[Iman Harirukia]

No, it's because you need more. You can't be satiated.

[Amanda Montell]

This is sounds like a cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish.

[Iman Harirukia]

And I'm Iman Hrikiya, the author. Author of female fantasy the Most famous girl in the world and 100 other girls.

[Amanda Montell]

Every week on this show we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cults in culture. From Satanists to Swifties. To try and answer the big question.

[Iman Harirukia]

This group sounds like a cult. But is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out.

[Amanda Montell]

Exactly. Because you know what Amon? Cults fall along a spectrum these days. And not all destructive, exploitative, low key, manipulative groups appear like Manson esque compounds in the woods. Sometimes they show up in your Silicon Valley startups, sometime cultish influences in your fandoms. And sometimes, sometimes it shows up in a book club. I don't know, a steamy spicy book club.

[Iman Harirukia]

A romance bookcon.

[Amanda Montell]

A romance bookcon that seems kind of sweet and net positive at the start and maybe it is, but then it ends up low key taking over your life.

[Iman Harirukia]

A romance bookcon is a slippery slope because one day you're buying a ticket and you're flying across the country and the next you're following your favorite author on a ten stop tour.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God. People really follow their favorite romantasy authors like people follow the Grateful Dead.

[Iman Harirukia]

I have done enough romance events with repeat authors where I recognize groups of people who have traveled to be at three or four events in a row. And I am lucky enough to say that now that I'm publishing romance that I have recognized readers at multiple stops in multiple states.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God, they're like peripatetic acolytes, like Pilgrimaging.

[Iman Harirukia]

It is one of the coolest and cultiest parts of being in the cult of romance, which I just felt identified as being a member of.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, well, I mean heaven that you're here. And speaking of you being here. Aman, welcome to the coven. You are our new 4thCo host.

[Iman Harirukia]

Thank you so much. I could not be more thrilled to be here. The honor is all mine.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God, we are all frothing and foaming and so overjoyed that you're joining our cult. I have always felt that this podcast really benefits from like a diversity of voices and opinion and characters and we're all having the best time already. Could you introduce yourself ever so briefly? I mean, the culties are going to get to know you very well throughout this episode, but could you just say a little tidbit and also like preface why this episode had to be your debut?

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, I don't know about all that, but I definitely can give myself a little intro and talk about why romance novels are my reason for being so My name is Iman Viri Kia. I am a writer born and based and in New York City. I worked as a journalist in the sex and relationship space for about a decade. My debut novel, 100 Other Girls was published in 2022 and since then I've gone on to publish two other books, the Most Famous Girl in the World and my most recent novel, Female Fantasy, which is actually a romance novel about the importance and significance of the romance genre. So I cannot imagine a better episode to start off my sounds like a cult tenure than romance novels because I've been a lifelong reader and now I am, some might say, a culty defender of the inherent value of the genre.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes, I truly believe, and I'm like scared to say it, but also gonna say it, that romance readers are one of, if not the most cult like fandom in all of media. They are so devout, they're so voracious and I feel like you're going to check some of my not judgment but some of my like preconceived notions. Today, because I'm an author, I have a lot of passionate thoughts and opinions about the publishing industry and elitism and us versus Them dynamics that exist in it. But genres within publishing are extremely siloed and in the book talk age, in the age of Goodreads, that's I feel even more true. And I have been warned about the fringy zealotry of the romance readership and the dynamics between its authors and its readers. So I am just like fascinated for your insight.

[Iman Harirukia]

This is such a perfect time for me to be having this conversation with you and before I get into the weeds a little bit. In case you haven't guessed it, based on the context we're giving you, we're diving into the cult of romance novels today. Think Enemies to Lovers. There's only one bet second Chance Romance. Romance novels have been around since the dawn of time, but right now, literally, I'm not only talking rom coms and like sexy eroticas. I'm talking bodice rippers, holoquin novels, romantic letters that have been slipped into the pockets of lovers. I'm talking about diary entries that are both salacious and then interpreted. This all falls under the cult of romance. But you more so probably have enthused hearing about romance as big Blockbuster Romantic Series, 4th Wing, Quicksilver, Acotar, and then of course, popular adaptations like Bridgerton. People we meet on Vacation, Heated rivalry romances on the tips of everyone's tongues. Whoa.

[Amanda Montell]

Do you find yourself being like more flirtatious and suggestive in your daily life now that you're a romance author?

[Iman Harirukia]

So I worked in sex and relationships for about 10 years. My friends tell me that I talk about sex with a straight face the way that most people talk about their grocery list. Like I just lost any and all ability to blush when it comes to anything.

[Amanda Montell]

Can you say like the most erotic romance novel sentence you can think of right now with a straight face?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah. I mean, I was reading a Basilisk shifter erotica.

[Amanda Montell]

So like snake porn basically.

[Iman Harirukia]

Except I found out while reading the Basilisk shifter erotica that snake is actually a slur for serpent. They prefer basilisk. So that was actually kind of derogatory within the world.

[Amanda Montell]

Within the world in the world was.

[Iman Harirukia]

In the world of this duology. So I was reading the series because I moderated an event for the author at Barnes Noble Union Square, and I went in blind to reading this book. The author's note did warn me that I would be forever changed after reading it. And I was a little scared. It was a very culty message. And I read the duology. There was, yes, basilisk shifters in that they do shift from snake to human. Their tongues do split to hit the clit and the vag at the same time. There were like detachable claw vibrators. There was mind fucking all that, but that didn't even come close to the surface. There was a sex ritual in which our FMC in question had to have sex with this shifter's father in front of him and then have sex with him. And then there was like a 24 hour orgy that was nothing in compared to the sex tournament in book two in which the entire colony had to take part in the ouroboros ritual, which is where everyone 69 s in a big infinity symbol and then they can only leave the circle till they finish. I can talk like this without breaking a sweat. I attribute all of that to my years and years of, like, writing about my masturbation routine and interviewing people about no nut November.

[Alexa Martin]

Wow.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so we have a lot to get into today. You are unbelievably passionate about this subject. I am morbidly curious and terrified by it. But before we're able to do our culty analysis, could you just define for the people what even is a romance novel?

[Iman Harirukia]

So a romance novel is actually extremely simple to define. There are two core tenets of a romance novel. In order to have a romance, the central love story has to be defined by the two people in the relationship. The plot has to center. The couple getting together. That has to be the main storyline driving it forward. And the only other key ingredient is happily ever after. Oh, yeah. It has to end in happily ever after. And I think a lot of people confuse romances and love stories. Love stories can center a couple, but they don't necessarily need to end in a happily ever after.

[Amanda Montell]

Got it.

[Iman Harirukia]

A romance has a guaranteed hea, which is lingo.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes. Oh my God, the lingo is so robust. Cult y. Beige flag, I guess. Not necessarily a red one, depending on how critical thinking dampening the language really is. I want to get into a little bit of the history of this cult because I feel like it sets up some important context. But I also want to mention that I love the two perspectives that we're bringing to this today because you're going to educate me so much. But think I. But also, I developed a fascination with this based on a documentary that I watched on Hulu called Naughty Books. And it was specifically, I think, mostly about the self published erotica world, which, like, there are some self published erotica writers who like, write a book every four months and are millionaires. Yes, like multi. Multimillionaires.

[Iman Harirukia]

I know them. Yeah, 100%. But guess what? Those people are being bought out by traditional publishing because traditional publishing, it was floundering and they needed those big bucks to keep the rest of the industry afloat.

[Amanda Montell]

Totally. Okay, so the romance genre has been on quite the journey since its early days, and we kind of want to quantify that journey. Romance novels start out mainly as books written by women, about women, for women. That's according to an article from the New York Public Library. Authors that you may have heard of, like Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters, helped lead the romance novel movement in the 19th century. Early Romance novels were focused on heterosexual relationships. As you can imagine, being gay was not okay back in the day. And breaking out of social norms on their way to find their own happiness. Now, there was a resurgence in romance in the 20th century, a time when historical fiction and gothic novels were also very popular. For a long time, romance novels centered on domestic squabbles. But then finally in the 1950s and 60s, these novels were portraying women doing things outside of the home in exotic and frilly places. And then in the 1970s, sexual revolution in America, things really started to heat up with the introduction of a genre called the bodice ripper. Previously things were pretty PG in the romance world, but with Kathleen E. Woodwiss's book the Flame and the Flower, sex scenes, full blown Basilisk 2 pronged clit stimulator. Whoa, I. I am blushing. Started showing up in romances. Think those hot covers with a couple in a sexy embrace. Fabio was beginning to Fabio. It was a time. The Flame and the Flower was also pretty revolutionary for going straight to paperback, making it an easier and cheaper read, bringing in a bigger audience, but maybe also bringing in some judgment and othering kind of giving straight to dvd, straight to vhs. Don't judge it, embrace it. Today, romance novels are still largely marketed for women, but there is a growing number of gender non conforming writers out there. Queer romance novels have existed for decades, they just haven't quite been marketed the same. Much different than the recent reception of something like Red, White and royal blue, which is as mainstream as it gets. And gay. We're getting somewhere. Ha ha. So I want to talk about the culty lingo aspect that you've already been teasing. Can you teach us a little bit of culty romance lingo and the role that it plays in this community.

[Iman Harirukia]

So there is an entire vocabulary that romance readers, authors and other people inside the genre to discuss not only the plot points of a romance novel, but also the tools used to read them.

[Amanda Montell]

The tools.

[Iman Harirukia]

The tools like glasses or more so whether or not you decide to continue reading or you finish like a dnf, a soft dnf, a hard dnf.

[Amanda Montell]

Wait, what's a soft dnf?

[Iman Harirukia]

Soft DNF is when you put it away and you're gonna come back to it later, or your tbr, which is your to be read. So stuff like that. These are all terms used to read books, mainly romance novels. And inside the cult of romance novels. I already talked about hea, which means you're happily ever after, but you have your FMC and your mmc, which are your female main character and your male main character. You have dual pov, which means you have Multiple narrative voices. Oftentimes they alternate dual timeline, which means two interspersed timelines that go back and forth between present day and past tense. You ally your love interest. And of course you have the spice meter system that talks about just how sexy the book gets. A lot of times people conflate spice and smut, but you've got to think about smut as being like the substance of a romance novel or an erotica, which erotica is within the umbrella of romance novels, but they are not one and the same. And then spice is like the seething. So the spice is like something that's sprinkled on top. It's not the full meal.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God. Okay, this is fascinating to me. I mean, obviously communities that could be considered fringe or really insular, really passionate tend to develop insidery language with acronyms and abbreviations. It builds solidarity. It makes everybody feel like they're part of an in group. And sometimes it helps with understanding topics, but sometimes it doesn't describe anything that can't be said in plain English. It's like literally just there to create conformity. I understand. And we'll get into like, the tropes within romance novels that romance readers, compared to any other type of reader, are not only passionate about the books that they love, but passionate about classifying them and labeling them. Why do you think that is? And do you think there's a cult y element to that?

[Iman Harirukia]

I think it's because for a long time, as you mentioned, people who had access to romance were shamed out of talking about it in public. And so their interest in romance was explored only in silo. But now because of of online romance spaces like BookTok, Bookstagram, BookTube, Romance specific book clubs and romance specific book cons and bookstores, community is forming in bigger and bigger numbers rapidly. And whenever you have something rise in popularity that fast, it helps to have shorthand to be able to talk about as much as you can as fast as possible.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, that's really interesting. I also think a lot of the acronyms and the flavor of the acronyms within this community, probably by no coincidence, remind me of a lot of the special terminology and acronyms that exist within the kink community.

[Iman Harirukia]

Absolutely.

[Amanda Montell]

Like, I'm a user of the application field. Okay. And you see things all the time on field like mmf, blah, blah, blah.

[Iman Harirukia]

And you'll see that too in romance, specifically in smut. In spicy romance, you'll see terms like ff, mm, owd, different types of bdsm and kink. I learned so much about kink. From reading romance, you learn about praise, kink, you learn about daddy kink, you learn about degradation, kink. These are all terms that are not going to be off putting to, let's say your average erotic romance or dark romance reader. But I honestly am so deep in the cult as a reader that now that I'm an author, I forget that these aren't layman's terms.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, yeah. And I think in the kink community, and it sounds like maybe in the romance community, terms like that, I mean, yes, they help you talk about it faster, but also, like, they help you talk about it in a way that feels more comfortable and more normal to people who know the terms. It's like this if, you know, you know, kind of thing where we don't have to, like, fully spell out the, like, anatomical terms for these things. Like, we can use euphemism so that we can feel more accepted, but. Okay, what you just said, I'm so deep in the cult, but you're speaking very positively about it. I know you feel extremely positively about the romance community. So what do you mean by that?

[Iman Harirukia]

When I say I'm so deep in the cult, this is what I meant by, this is an interesting time for you to have this conversation with me. I've been reading romance ever since I was a young girl. I have read everything I can get my hands on. I read light, fluffy rom coms, dark, smutty novellas. I read cowboy romance, hockey romance, mafia romance, romantasy fantasy romance, historical romance. Like, you name it, I've read it. And for a long time, I feel like I have been a very active cult follower. And I feel like I can very much laugh with other members of the cult because I've indulged in culty experiences. Like what?

[Amanda Montell]

Like what?

[Iman Harirukia]

I have reread interconnected Romantasy series, taking notes, looking for Easter eggs, and then listened to theory podcasts and then written down my own theories and then tried to convince other people to read them so we could share theories. I have paid up up for, like, NSFW fan art accounts because I need more. I've been there. I've been in the hole. And I feel very seen when other people can laugh at how culty this behavior is because it consumes your life when you're in it.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God, I love hearing this. It inspires multiple feelings in me. It inspires rubbernecking, like, oh, my God, there are so many ways to spend time. So I'm just like, please tell me what you do alone at home in your house be jealousy, because I don't have anything like this. And I guess part of my attraction to this podcast week after week is like, I'm just looking for the cult for me. And then three, I'm just like, okay, but wait, when does the laughter turn into like evil villain cackling? And that leads me to want to get into the next subject. So I keep alluding to being like scared of this readership, and I think it's partially because of the fringy zealotry of romance reader review culture, specifically on sites like Goodreads, which is that's not even a word that I utter in my household. And storygraph are places in addition to social media where readers go to speak in unfiltered ways about the books that they love and hate. Romance reviewing spaces have blown the hell up and really disrupted the power structure within publishing because there's so much word of mouth now online about like, which books deserve of attention and clout outside of like the gatekeeping that publishing marketers are responsible for and in charge of. And on these reviewing websites, like, the positive thing is that they're community builders. It's lovely to be able to talk passionately about the books that you're reading with others who are equally obsessed, but things can turn toxic with social media algorithms, especially as they reward negativity. I know that there are certain like like Goodreads almost influencers who build cult followings on like bashing authors and sometimes authors can't handle it. Haha. But like, maybe we also need to get certain people on Goodreads help. Because look, there are a lot of really high temperature culty dynamics between authors and readers online. And sometimes it's over things that are so silly, just like differences in opinion about a book. For example, when romance writer Ali Hazelwood got tiniest violin ever, canceled and bullied off social media for saying that she was Team Gale from the Hunger Games.

[Iman Harirukia]

This was truly one of the most baffling things I've ever seen. So I will say quickly, I keep hinting at this, but the reason that it's so interesting that I'm talking about this right now is because I've been a romance reader my whole life, but I just debuted with my first ever romance novel. In the past, I have published two fiction novels, Hundred Other Girls and the Most Famous Girl in the World, both of which had romance subplots but were not romances because they did not end in a happily ever after female fantasy, which came out about a month ago, is my first ever romance and it is also a book about romance. It is a meta narrative about romance.

[Amanda Montell]

Kirkus starred review, in case you'd like to know.

[Iman Harirukia]

Thank you very much. The best experience in the world, honestly, for me, was going from being a cult member to being one of the co cult followers or co cult leaders, I should say.

[Amanda Montell]

You identify that way.

[Iman Harirukia]

Now, I don't know if I identify that way, but I experienced what I imagine real romance cult leaders experience.

[Amanda Montell]

Who's a real romance cult leader?

[Iman Harirukia]

Like a very established romance author. Like one of the top romance authors.

[Amanda Montell]

Like Emily Henry.

[Iman Harirukia]

Like an Emily Henry.

[Amanda Montell]

Yes.

[Iman Harirukia]

Is definitely like a cult leader of the cult of romance novels.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so you experienced a little bit.

[Iman Harirukia]

Of what you've been talking about, which is for the first time ever, I published a book and experienced the blowing up of it online. And like the videos and the discourse and the tags and the word of mouth organic zealotry that publishing has tried so hard to pay for but cannot be bought.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Iman Harirukia]

Because paid reviews just don't work. People don't believe them. People don't want to watch them. It's just through sheer and utter enthusiasm, grassroots passion. And I will say I like it so much better on the inside of this cult. There's a very big difference between romance readers and fiction readers in that I find romance readers are so unabashedly enthusiastic. They are fangirls. Like, they allow themselves to be so loud and excited about what they love to read. They do things like drive five hours to attend their favorite author's event, and then they talk to the other readers at the event and they form a group chat and they have a book club by next week. This is the kind of stuff that isn't happening in fiction because in my opinion, fiction readers have a lot more discernment. Like, they are way less likely to want to seem, like, overly excited and passionate at a book event. They're much more reserved. You know, they're cool, calm, collected, and they're a lot more critical. Fiction readers are inherently critical of what they're reading.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so this is just my observation. I've found that literary fiction readers are more critical of the actual craft, whereas romance readers are more critical of the author. Well, maybe. And that's an interesting way to interpret what I was gonna say, which is they're more critical of, like, the characters as if they're real people. To me, from my observations, there's more of a breakdown between what's real and what's just like a piece of art.

[Iman Harirukia]

So I actually think what I said and what you said are connected because ultimately I have witnessed friends of mine who write romance get backlash because readers believe that choices that their characters made reflect their ethics or their opinions or how they live their lives or carry out their romantic relationships. There is a big, I believe, issue with parasocial connections within the romance community, and that is the dark underbelly of having that much passion and enthusiasm. One cannot exist without the other. Totally. There is this like fangirldom, this zealotry, this excitement, this real passion, which I mean, again, it's unlike anything I've ever experienced. It is so wonderful to work so hard on something and then publish it and have people truly cry and scream and cheer you on and go out of their way to let you know how meaningful it was. But then the other side is, once you're put on that pedestal, it doesn't take much to fall. And then what we haven't said yet is sites like booktok, Threads, goodreads, storygraph, all of these platforms that exist for book readers to share their opinions with other readers, which again, are reader specific spaces, not for authors. Negativity is often encouraged algorithmically. So, like if you say something critical or you talk about the books you hated, or you talk about a choice that you found to be problematic and you know, there are real reasons why a romance author will be quote unquote canceled for, you know, making a racial microaggression or for saying something bigoted or. There are real issues within romance that we'll talk about, but something like Ali Hazelwood saying that she is Team Gayle being enough to now have all of her social media platforms being run by an assistant because she is like too afraid to go online. That's a big example of how a very low stakes hate train can then impact the long term career of an established author.

[Amanda Montell]

What do you think is like the mystical ingredient that makes the romance reader community like this for better and for worse?

[Iman Harirukia]

I think it's because the real magic of romance is that this is a genre that gives people hope. It makes people feel seen, it makes people feel connected. And romance isn't just an exploration of romantic love, but of familial love, platonic love, self love. It's a human character study. So a lot of people find a real sense of inner strength from reading romance and once they tap into that, they start to reconsider what they deserve out of romantic relationships. They start to explore their own sexuality, they start to ask for more from the people in their lives and they feel like they owe that in a Lot of ways to the romance genre and to the friendships, to the people, to the authors inside of it. So there is this sort of of in some ways, like codependency.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah.

[Iman Harirukia]

That said, I see it channeled for positivity way more than it is for negativity. But like all online culty book spaces, things snowball very quickly.

[Amanda Montell]

That's fascinating. So like romance texts more than literary fiction or, I don't know, like thrillers almost serve as not biblical scripture, but almost like a model on which one can base some of their life choices. Which feels culty in a beautiful way and also kind of a dulu way. And I mean that respectfully and with love.

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, I think also romance can be two things at once. The world is on fire and people benefit from picking up something light and fluffy and hopeful to like make them feel something at the end of the day. And that's totally fine. I think that's why people are so quick to call romance an escapist genre. But the other side of romance is that it's actually incredibly deep and inherently political. Something that I talk a lot about in my novel, female fantasy is how interconnected romance novels actually are to our sex education system. Because the truth is, sex ed in America is abysmal. And not only do we live in a puritanical society, but it's getting worse. And very, very few states mandate medically accurate sex education. What does that mean? That means that while young men are learning about penetrative sex and like how to fulfill their sexual needs, I should say young straight CIS men, they're also forming community around sex by talking about it with their friends, joking about jacking off and watching porn and locker room talk. Like that's all one bracket. At the exact same time, women and marginalized people are feeling like extremely confused about sex and relationships, extremely confused about erogenous zones, pleasure centers, sexuality, gender identity, consent, all of these things. And there's like no real way where they can go to get like accessible, non judgmental information. And if they outwardly display an interest in sex, they're slut shamed. Because women want to distance themselves as far as they can from sexual promiscuity because they're afraid that it will reflect on them. Like that's where the fingerprint pointing of slut shaming comes from. So what happens is these children become adults, they go out to the world and CIS straight men carry this power, this confidence with them wherever they go, into boardrooms, into politics, into relationships.

[Amanda Montell]

This phallocentric confidence.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, completely like our phallic society, which.

[Amanda Montell]

Is even these microphones look like dicks.

[Iman Harirukia]

Say it.

[Amanda Montell]

Before we started recording, I was just like, it would not be that hard to redesign microphones to look like vulvas. I can imagine speaking into one.

[Iman Harirukia]

And that's what we're going to put all of our money into. Making the next sounds like a cult. Merch drop.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God, you guys better buy it.

[Iman Harirukia]

But no, while this is happening, women and marginalized people are going out into the world disenfranchised and they have to seek out this information for themselves. And what's the number one way that women and marginalized people have explored sex, Love, dating, Romance, Romance. It's been through female pov, it's been through love stories about women written by women for other women.

[Amanda Montell]

That's such a good point. Yeah. And you know, for good and for ill. No one ever starts a cult explicitly to do wrong. Everyone thinks they're starting something that's gonna change the world or solve some culture wide pain point or whatever. And the vulnerability that the cult of romance novels is promising and in some ways succeeding at remedying is. Yeah, sexual confusion, dissatisfaction, harm, negligence, all of the things. And the passion that has emerged for these very politically relevant reasons obviously has its benefits, but it has led to some scammy scandals. So the cult of romance novels actually had its own version of Fyre Fest. Do you know about this?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes, I've heard and honestly the there have been multiple instances of this. This might just be the biggest.

[Amanda Montell]

I believe it. So the biggest instance was that in May 2025, not so long ago, videos of a Romantasy book convention circulated online and it was a sad, sad affair. My culties authors paid hundreds to table and attend the event with reportedly about 100 people in attendance over two days. The event ended with an exclusive ball included in the $250 VIP ticket which was just simply some scattered rose petals, a cash bar, a bluetooth speaker and bright overhead lights in a huge convention room. It was giving Christian mixer. These people are supposed to know about mood lighting. Don't play with them like that. It was hilariously sad and I think the way that Fyre Fest was a reflection of the cult of the influencer industry which is, is, you know, different in some market ways from the cult that we're addressing today. This was a reflection of the cult of the romance industry.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, that was definitely difficult to watch. But since then there have been a lot of really diverse, inclusive, well run romance cons. And I have heard nothing but good things about those cons from the authors and the readers that have attended them. Like, what cult doesn't have a fyre fest in its back pocket?

[Amanda Montell]

No, literally. But I'm just saying, like another sort of notch in the bedpost of the romance novel world's like, cultiness.

[Iman Harirukia]

Absolutely. I think like ultimately everything that romance has given this community, which is so unbelievably substantial, it's fodder for idolatry. Idolatry. Like, there's no way people could not act in a culty way when they feel like this is a genre of books that not only saved their lives and gave them a sense of how hope and belonging and allow them to heal from sexual trauma and explore their kinks, but also gave them community, gave them friendship, gave them their power back. The power that got diminished when they were young in their small towns in sex education classes, they feel empowered reading books that allow them to learn more about their bodies and themselves and then talking with groups of other marginalized people about those things. But the flip side of that is, is whenever you would follow a group of people or a single author to the ends of the world, that's when you have to start asking yourself, well, how far would I actually go? Is this a live your life?

[Amanda Montell]

A watcher backer? Get the fuck out?

[Iman Harirukia]

Exactly.

[Amanda Montell]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform to help entrepreneurs stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to build a beautiful custom website to connect with your audience and to sell absolutely anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. If you go to soundslikeacult.com, you can witness it in all its glory. We just updated our Squarespace website with the new photos we took of all four of us hosts, including our brand new host Aman. And updating the website is always is super easy. I'm always so happy with how it turns out and that is thanks to Squarespace features like their design intelligence, which combines two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you build the website of your dreams that matches your brand and your aesthetic and your needs. Squarespace Payments also makes it easy to sell things online and I also love that you can set up fundraisers on a Squarespace website. If you are in a charitable phase of Life, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code Cult. You know what my cult Y mantra often is in life? Work smarter, not harder. I apply that to my job. I apply that to the way I feed myself. And Lord knows I have been applying that to my cellular provider. I'll say it Wireless service can be kind of scammy. Hidden fees and charges. They're the worst. If you want a better solution for your wireless service, check out Mint Mobile. I am am so very glad that I did. I'm so happy they sponsored this podcast. Things are so expensive these days and we truly shouldn't have to break the bank on something as necessary as our cellular plan. So here's the deal. New customers can make the switch today and for a limited time get unlimited premium wireless for just $15 per month. Switch [e-mail] cult that's mintmobile.com cult upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Month plan required. That's 15 bucks a month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only. Over 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. Additional terms apply. CMIT mobile.com okay, so can you talk about some of the culty exclusion that exists in this community? Like who gets to have power? Because for a long time it was the big publishing establishment. What are the power dynamics within this world with regard to platforming diverse authors, you know, making sure that they're paid correctly, all of that?

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, publishing has always had a diversity problem, and that's definitely also true within the romance community. A big critique of the genre for a long time has been that it has a lack of diversity, especially when it comes to race. Of course there are so many diverse romance authors and so many diverse romance novels that exist. But access to set novels has always been difficult and who's to blame is something we should talk about that. So one thing is that the Romance Writers of America, which was a group made in 1980 to support writers and uplift the genre, filed for bankruptcy in 2024 after years of struggling over diversity and romance. And that group was actually co founded by a black woman who left a few years after because of differences in visions. Members of that group compared it to a sorority and said that there was a lot of mean girl behavior I am not familiar with. I was never really involved in it. But just hearing those things, I am not necessarily surprised because it is such a Fight to get resources and get marketing support and get reader attention on books. The hard part is not pitting ourselves against each other and staying focused on the mission.

[Amanda Montell]

I mean, I think Romance Writers of America is a nonprofit and like the nonprofit world is like.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, we did.

[Amanda Montell]

That episode back in the day in 2020 relate to.

[Iman Harirukia]

I listened to it recently. Oh my God. Another story is that in 2019, the President of Romance Writers for America, same group, was suspended for criticizing how an author portrayed a Chinese woman. Stories like this pop up a lot in the romance community. Just arguments about how diversity is described on the page. But anyway, these descriptions were racist. But the ethics board didn't like that the president, who was a Chinese American author, had criticized another author. And then basically one thing led to another and a member told NBC News that the group was a woman dominated organization, that there was a culture value and be nice, don't rock the boat and don't cause controversy. There's still a long, long way to go in terms of championing diversity in publishing and within the romance genre. The Ripped Bodice, which is an indie romance bookstore based in LA and Brooklyn. I actually did my book launch at the Ripped Bodice this year.

[Amanda Montell]

It is iconic.

[Iman Harirukia]

Definitely.

[Amanda Montell]

Like a cult hub.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, cult, yeah. And. And a very culty thing about romance novels is now there are romance only bookstores popping up all over the globe. But they published a diversity report and said that since 2016, they've looked at how many books were published by bipoc authors. And the latest report found that only 11% of books were published by people of color within the romance genre. That's not surprising to me at all. As a romance author of color myself, I know that there are hundreds, if not thousands of incredibly talented romance authors of color and marginalized romance authors who are brilliant and writing popular books. The issue is systemic, like many issues are. These stories and these authors are oftentimes given smaller advances. They're given smaller marketing budgets, which means it's harder to get the word out about their books or they're pushed less when it comes to distributors, which means that their books aren't stocked in stores like Barnes and Noble or independent bookstores. And the reason behind this is because the industry is concerned that diverse stories are considered niche narratives that, like mainstream audiences, won't be able to relate to.

[Amanda Montell]

It's so hypocritical because this is the same industry in which writing advice, number one, is like relatability lies in specificity.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yep.

[Amanda Montell]

To me, I am haunted. Haunted by the story that Roxane gay was paid $15,000 to write bad feminist.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, but again, like I'm not surprised by that because you have to think about the same group of like 10 white old men in the room doing risk assessment around their budget and ultimately it trickles down and impacts everyone at every level of publishing. Like we're not even gonna talk about like unionizing today. That's a whole other issue. But ultimately I hear all the time as a romance reader and as a romance author that the same 10 book talk titles, the same 10 authors get pushed in front of every single romance reader. And these are usually white, straight, cis, able bodied romances written by own voices by authors of that same identity structure. And so they have to then go out of their way to seek out diverse romances. Again, this isn't accidental. It's because publishers are often worried that they won't have an opportunity basically to prove themselves. The only reason that a diverse author is able to get gain access to these resources is once they've already proved themselves. But what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Like, how can they.

[Amanda Montell]

Such a catch 22.

[Iman Harirukia]

It's a catch 22. But great example is that heated rivalry, which is a. Mm. Gay hockey romance. Extremely popular series written by Rachel that was just adapted by Canada's crave and picked up by hbo.

[Amanda Montell]

I watched the first episode the other day in a hotel room. I was, what? What?

[Iman Harirukia]

So like that's my cult. That's. That's all I'm think I'm thinking about that now. Even though I'm here, I'm watching an edit in my mind of heated rivalries.

[Amanda Montell]

That you're like, I'm on autopilot here today.

[Iman Harirukia]

No, I'm. I will check my phone. I'll have five texts from people saying I started heated rivalry because of you. Because I can't shut the fuck up about it.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, yeah, no, no. I was told to watch it on like a sapphic night out. And I obviously immediately, I do what I'm told and I like, immediately.

[Iman Harirukia]

I'm a good follower.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, no, when it comes to like sexy gay premium drama series, like, sign me up.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, you're locked in.

[Amanda Montell]

I'm so locked in. And thank God I was alone while I was watching this thing because I.

[Iman Harirukia]

Was like, oh, it is unbelievably smutty. And the director said, smutty.

[Amanda Montell]

Not to be confused with spicy.

[Iman Harirukia]

Not to be confused with spicy because. Because the actual act of having sex from start to finish is on page and on screen.

[Amanda Montell]

It's Incredible. I was laughing because my friend shout out Jen Winston, who wrote the book Greedy, which is like a bisexual essay collection. Chef's Kiss. Anyway, she told me to watch it and she was like, it's the most satisfying thing. The two main characters will, like, start to kiss and then there will be a cut and you'll be like, oh, no, I wanted to see what happened next. But then they like, cut to the bed.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, exactly. It's. It's a cut to the action.

[Amanda Montell]

It's like it's cut to the basilisk tongue.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, exactly.

[Amanda Montell]

There is no basilisk in this show. Just so you know. It's gay hockey players.

[Iman Harirukia]

More cultilingo for you. In romance, we have open door romance, closed door romance, and fade to black romance. Heated rivalry is an open door romance, which means, like, you see everything and there's hard ck.

[Amanda Montell]

So, okay, so I'm not. Thank you for saying cocktails. Moving on.

[Alexa Martin]

How.

[Amanda Montell]

What I'm. This. I'm not buying that, like, all of this shorthand was just created so, like, all the romance people could talk about it easier. Like, why all the taxonomy?

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, you know, a lot of it has its roots in fanfiction. And I think that again, like, fan fiction, which is its own cult, was created so that people of marginalized identities, especially queer people, could like, write themselves into stories and feel like they're part of narratives. So, I mean, maybe part of it is, you know, this is our space and this is our language. And I was reminded of this recently at my own book launch where I was in conversation with Red, White and Royal blues author Casey McQuiston, and they were asking me this or that romance trope, romance lingo, rapid fire questions. And I would say 90% of people in the audience had no idea what's going on. I've never seen my mother look more confused in her life.

[Alexa Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Iman Harirukia]

She looked scared. Genuinely scared. And that woman escaped a revolution. So I was a little concerned, obviously.

[Amanda Montell]

So you got some perspective on your own.

[Iman Harirukia]

So I know it's culty, but it's exactly like everything else in romance. I think the roots of it were like, we're escaping persecution. Like, the roots of it or because we are finally trying to create safe spaces to heal and learn and explore. But now we could have an entire conversation and only use acronyms and no one would know what we were about. Talking, talking about.

[Amanda Montell]

If that is not the cultiest summary, I don't know what is.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, yeah, I will say heated rivalry, which was adapted from Rachel Reed's Best Selling mm. Hockey romance series into a blockbuster. Everyone's talking about it. Extremely graphic, sensual, full of yearning. HBO show. It didn't receive a re release reprint from Harlequin. Every single popular book that gets adapted usually gets a reprint with a movie poster. TV show poster. Yeah, of course. And that's beneficial for both the publisher and the author because anyone who loves the movie or TV show series will then be extremely quick to go and buy the book.

[Amanda Montell]

It's a collector's item. Yes.

[Iman Harirukia]

I don't want to incorrectly identify who the publisher was here, but I know Harlequin published heated rivalry and they. I didn't anticipate this queer story having a big enough audience.

[Amanda Montell]

I fucking dude. The publishing industry is so dumb. It hurts me so much. It makes me so angry.

[Iman Harirukia]

You can't order it on the Harlequin website. It's backlisted on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble.

[Amanda Montell]

That's so fucked up.

[Iman Harirukia]

It's not in any single indie bookstore libraries. It's. The wait lists are out of control. The only way that you can read the number one show in America right now.

[Amanda Montell]

You have to pirate it.

[Iman Harirukia]

No, you have to pirate it. Which. Please don't pirate your books.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, don't pirate books.

[Iman Harirukia]

Or you have to get it on Kindle.

[Amanda Montell]

Empowering the cult of Amazon.

[Iman Harirukia]

Which is empowering the cult of Amazon. But the TLDR is an author like Rachel Reed is losing thousands and thousands of dollars. And that's because again, it all goes back to the systemic issue which is that publishing has always been very, very scary to bet on. Diverse romances.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah. Oh my God. I'm so fucking horrified. Thank you for spelling that out. God bless you for analyzing this cult for me. I'm still scared of it, but I understand it better. And I think now is the perfect time to get into our interview today.

[Iman Harirukia]

We are so excited to be talking to Alexa Martin, the USA Today best selling author of romance and women's fiction novels.

[Amanda Montell]

Alexa has some culty overlap with the cult of Swifties and she is here to help us better understand the contours of this cult. Cies. It is my absolute pleasure to tell you about our sponsor, Quint. Quint is all about elevating your sartorial vibe with effortless, effortless, high quality, ethically made wardrobe essentials that last. I'm talking versatile silhouettes, thoughtful details, the sort of styles you'll wear again and again. I am being so for real right now when I say that I am absolutely in love with every single Quint piece that has ever come into my life. I left my favorite pair of Quint's little white booties at my parents house recently and my quality of life has gone down significantly. Which just means that I'm going to have to go on the website and get more. And I don't have to feel bad about that one bit because Quint works directly with safe ethical factories and cuts out the middleman. So you're not paying for brand markup, just high quality clothing. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.comslac for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com/ to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/.

[Bob the Drag Queen]

Hey, everybody. My name is Bob the Drag Queen. And I'm Monet X Change. And we are the host of Sibling Rivalry. This is the podcast where two best friends gab and talk smack and have a lot of fun with our black queer selves. Yeah, for sure. You know, we are family, so we talk about everything, honey, from why we don't like hugs to black Lives matter to interracial dating, to other things. Right, Bob?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Bob the Drag Queen]

And it gets messy and we are not afraid to be wrong. So please join us over here at Civic Bribery, available anywhere you get your podcast, you can listen and subscribe for free. For free, honey.

[Amanda Montell]

I just have to open with the following. We recorded our intro to this episode like a month ago. Truly never in. Sounds like a cult history. Has my relationship to the cult of the week week changed so dramatically between the time when we did.

[Iman Harirukia]

I was thinking about that because you and I kind of had a little banter about heated rivalry. And since.

[Amanda Montell]

A little banter.

[Iman Harirukia]

I would say since then, the extent to which we have discussed heated rivalry has upshot what, 110%.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, so I'm actually getting a heated rivalry flash tattoo in two weeks.

[Iman Harirukia]

Say more. Are you getting a loon?

[Amanda Montell]

No, no, that was on the, like, little page. Okay, but I'm getting Gimme kiss. Gimme kiss.

[Iman Harirukia]

Oh, my gosh, I die.

[Amanda Montell]

I'm so excited.

[Iman Harirukia]

Gimme keys. Tramp stamp. Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Should I?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

Do I dare?

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

So the point is, Alexa, that I didn't understand this cult literally at all when we recorded our intro because this isn't my literary world. If I may, if that's okay.

[Alexa Martin]

But.

[Amanda Montell]

But I now am dipping my ass in and the water's warm.

[Iman Harirukia]

You're submerged. I'd say.

[Amanda Montell]

Actually the water's cold.

[Iman Harirukia]

You're cold.

[Amanda Montell]

Gimme keys. Sorry, I'm just. I'm so in it. I started listening to Rachel Reed's series on audio. I've never done such a thing.

[Iman Harirukia]

No, it's because you need more. You have a craving. You can't be satiated.

[Amanda Montell]

Can I just say, and let me open with this is a question for both of you. I don't identify as a prude. I live a little life. But I am scandalized by reading the word cock.

[Iman Harirukia]

So that's actually something that goes away the more you do it.

[Amanda Montell]

Right, sure. Desensitization.

[Iman Harirukia]

It's an exposure mechanism.

[Amanda Montell]

I see.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah.

[Alexa Martin]

But that's also something that if you look online, is one of the kind of discourses of, like, what people will call it. Like, what are the words that they use for genitals? Right. Like there's the purple prose, like, throbbing member doing, like all those things, like, which is the good one and which isn't. And there is some discourse around cock.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay.

[Iman Harirukia]

And I think certain types of language appeal to certain types of readers. Like, some people want something a bit more clean, closed door, a little bit more of an illusion. And other people want it spicy, smutty, open door as hard ckcock can be delivered. Yeah, see, like, I didn't even blink.

[Amanda Montell]

No, you haven't blinked since we began recording. So anywho, I'm learning. And I'm also. Well, I'm about to write a story, sort of spicy book myself. It's not a romance novel and it doesn't, as I've learned, meet the requirements to be considered romance because no spoilers. But, like, it doesn't necessarily end well for anyone.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, we've got a love story on our hands, sort of.

[Amanda Montell]

But I'm now having to think about, like, how am I gonna describe these acts? I've written sex scenes before, but they were like, I don't know, Nevermind. This isn't about me. Alexa. Welcome to Sounds Like a Cult.

[Alexa Martin]

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a long journey and I'm so happy I'm finally here.

[Amanda Montell]

It really has. Could you introduce yourself for our listeners and explain your relationship to the cult of romance novels? Dare I say yes?

[Alexa Martin]

So my name is Alexa Martin. I am a romance author and reader. I started as a reader. I never actually thought I would really write. And then an idea came to me and I actually hid in my basement and started writing. Like, I didn't even tell my husband. He was like, what are you doing in the basement? I was like, she can't know. And so I started writing. It took me like four years to write my first book. And I've just been kind of luckily, thankfully, been able to publish them ever since.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, I think what are you doing in the basement? Is actually a start to a lot of really great behavior.

[Alexa Martin]

Who knows which subgenre?

[Amanda Montell]

It's like, is she writing a romance novel? Is she starting a conspiracy theory? Is she, like, building a weapon?

[Iman Harirukia]

And there's a Venn diagram there where the two worlds meet. Speaking of which, do you think that tropes contribute to the cult of romance? Romance specifically, how people only read nowadays for trope versus for the actual plot or story.

[Alexa Martin]

I think everybody with romance has their, like, gateway drug in what gets them in. So right now, heated rivalry is like where you're getting in. So if you find a book that resembles that, you'll probably read it. I think it's more of you're figuring out what you like and you get a craving for a trope sometimes and, like, you'll be in like a enemies to lovers phase. And then maybe you'll read something in that book that's a different trope and then you'll kind of jump onto that. I think that's a good best thing about romance is there's so many options and so many different things to read about.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, absolutely. I was really surprised. I did a reading earlier this week and I asked the audience, who here is a romance reader? I got maybe two hands up. I asked, who here is obsessed with heated rivalry? Full room, cheered. I realized that people don't realize that they are engaging in romance, but we've got our claws in them and we're gonna open up our world.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God.

[Alexa Martin]

It's hard to get out now. It's a cult that's hard to escape.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yes.

[Amanda Montell]

But the funny thing about just the way that I hear romance authors in particular talk about this world, it's very careful, and I don't want either of you to endanger yourselves. But I don't think any other author in any other genre is quite as delicate with their readership as Roman romance authors are. And there is a culty undercurrent to that dynamic. And Alexa, I was wondering if you could talk about, like, the relationship between those who actually write the biblical scripture and the followers who appear to have more power than anything I've seen in other literary genres.

[Iman Harirukia]

And I'm really curious, like, do you think that romance authors are the leaders of the cult or are the readers the actual leaders or the publishers?

[Alexa Martin]

Oh, well, that's all. Other. I feel like the readers have a lot of power. I think we're so careful because it does feel like a genre that gets very easily and often disrespected. And so I feel like we have to be careful about how we talk about it because we don't want to, like, invite that in or kind of spur it on. And we try to respect our readers who love it. Romance readers read so much compared to, like, other genres. Romance readers are always like, I read 150 books. And people are like, no, you didn't. But, like, they do. We read a lot. Because even though I write rom coms, so my books go down pretty easily. But, like, there's still usually heavier topics in them. So it's one of those things where you could read about a heavier topic, but there's a safety in it to where, like, you know it's going to end with a happily ever after. And so it's easy to read. And we respect that. Like those readers. It's never like you're fighting for readers as much because just because they read one author, really, that probably means they're going to read you as well. So you just want to respect everybody's like, care and love and taste for the genre.

[Amanda Montell]

I'm like, really digging here for someone to be like, yeah, I'm terrified of the readers, but no one will say it.

[Iman Harirukia]

I think that there's a lot of love and respect and compassion within the romance community because everyone feels a little trauma, bonded totally.

[Amanda Montell]

And like, this is culty, but maybe not in a nefarious or exploitative way. When a group of people is marginalized, ostracized, regarded as weird and strange and fringy and has, like, unorthodox beliefs, often they are regarded as a cult, whether or not they are committing any harm or there's power abuse within the group itself. But, I mean, surely there is drama within the romance community.

[Alexa Martin]

There's a lot. And it's usually around, like, certain things. Like with the heated rivalry right now, there's just like, hey, don't go to hockey games and harass the players. Right. There's been, like, drama in the past of people going and really crossing the line of having fun in fiction and books to sexual harassment. There was dark fantasy conference and some readers put a tracker on the male model. It got, like, really intense. So I think most of the drama, though, is based around, like, the respect and boundaries and consent, which is a really big thing in the genre as well.

[Iman Harirukia]

Absolutely. And speaking of all of the conferences that you mentioned, do you think that there are actually financial costs of committing fully to the cult of romance?

[Alexa Martin]

I think there can be if you're going to all the conferences. However, I was a reader long before as a writer, and I never went to a conference, and I still felt very involved in the community. So I think it's how far you want to go. And then, like, a lot of the conferences, it depends on how deep within the cult and probably, like, sub genre. But there's the financial cost of books. Books can be very expensive.

[Amanda Montell]

It's true.

[Iman Harirukia]

Especially in the age of sprayed edges and special editions collector items. Like, I feel as if the financial cost of being a true romance fangirl has gone up even in the last five to 10 years.

[Alexa Martin]

Yeah. And now there's romance bookstores popping up everywhere as well. So you're going to those and maybe paying extra to go to a book Bedazzling Night, which feels just like. I mean, I love, like, crafty, and it feels like fun community, but there is the price of it if you're really getting involved.

[Amanda Montell]

The world has just opened up so much. And even just as a new fan or like a romance curious person, I already feel pressure to prove myself. I mean, I'm about to get a $150 heated rivalry tattoo. And that's a bit. And it's for fun, but it's also like, look how much of a fan I am.

[Alexa Martin]

Yeah.

[Iman Harirukia]

I need you to ask me to get this tattoo with you. I'm waiting for you to propose to me. Yes, please.

[Amanda Montell]

The only reason I didn't is because it's in Los Angeles. But, like, please book a flight.

[Iman Harirukia]

It's a little far. Speaking of costs.

[Amanda Montell]

Speaking of cost of flight. Well, I mean, this is interesting because it's like this particular cult in scare quotes feels swifty coded to me. But I think the swifty cult is obviously more mainstream, and so there are a lot more ways to spend money and have that culturally justified and approved of. Whereas probably someone who's totally outside of this subculture would think I'm insane.

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, I think what the swifties and romance readers have in common as cults is that they're mainly made up of, like, majority straight, cisgendered women. Well, there are a lot of marginalized romance readers, but they're associated, let's say, with, like, straight cisgendered women who have often felt, like, ostracized or belittled for liking what they like. And so that they both feel very much indignant and passionate about their fangirling, whether it's for romance or for Taylor Swift, because they've had to remain steadfast in their passion regardless. Regardless of how much the world treats them as if they're trivial. I think that's the real connection.

[Amanda Montell]

Yeah, it's like cults are often formed in response to a problem in society, whether it's racism or financial hardship or a loneliness epidemic. And this feels like a cult, if you will, that has formed in response to misogyny stereotypes about women, young women in particular, being ditzy or not, as smart, educated, worthy of power and authority, that sort of thing.

[Iman Harirukia]

Well, speaking of Taylor Swift, you may have predicted the Travis romance novel worthy love story if the rumors are true.

[Alexa Martin]

I have gotten some credits, and I don't know whether or not I should take it or not.

[Amanda Montell]

Can you explain? Cause, like, I wasn't totally tuned into this.

[Alexa Martin]

So my first series was a football series. My husband had played in the NFL for eight years. And so my first books were kind of based in that world. And in my second book, the main character's name is TK and as I was writing, writing that book, I found Travis Kelce, and he was kind of my character inspiration in the book. And so since I already had my Travis Kelce romance novel, also, I love Taylor Swift and her music. That book was published, I think, in 2018, so long before. And I was just like, listen, I have been preaching to the cults of Travis Kelce for a very long time, and I think I should get some recognition, and I'm glad that everybody has caught up.

[Iman Harirukia]

Okay. And Alexa, since you are a resident expert, that. Do you think that Travis and Taylor are endgame?

[Alexa Martin]

I mean, I hope so. I. I would not put that out there if I didn't either. But, like, I mean, they're engaged. They seem very happy. So I hope so. I hope for both of them that it's what it seems to everybody else.

[Iman Harirukia]

We gotta meet back here for the cult of celebrity weddings.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh.

[Iman Harirukia]

Oh.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God. Great. That's actually a. That's a wonderful suggestion. I love that I have kind of like a question that I feel like will reflect poorly on me, but that's fine because I'm new to this world and whatever, if people come for me, I'm comfortable with it. There does seem to be a stereotype among outsiders looking in that a lot of romance writers are, like, not that sexually active.

[Alexa Martin]

Is that something people say?

[Amanda Montell]

I think they say that about readers too. Like, oh, they're just like these, like, horny Lonely?

[Alexa Martin]

Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Don't shoot the messenger. I've heard people in the wild kind of like, whisper this. What do you make of this?

[Alexa Martin]

I feel like I've heard opposite with my friends who are readers, where people are like, oh, so you've tried this position where they make it like we're super hypersexualized. I don't know. I've been married to my husband for so long, so nobody's ever really asked me. I mean, I guess that makes sense to hear where people are like, oh, they're living in this, like, fantasy. But then I feel like more often than not, I hear the other where people just think. All we think about is sex, and we're just, like, having crazy, wild sex all the time.

[Amanda Montell]

I think maybe people are just. And I would fall into this category. People are just, like, confounded by this genre.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah. I mean, until they're bitten by the bug.

[Amanda Montell]

Until they're bitten by the gun. Oh, it makes perfect sense. And, like, there are so many types of readers and writers, but I think people who are not yet bitten or have that conversion moment, as we say in cult discourse, then you might theorize about who these people are and, like, what makes them the way they are.

[Iman Harirukia]

And the truth is, is, like, this is a billion dollar industry. There are millions and millions of romance readers. I don't think they exist within a monolith. Your school librarian might be a romance reader, but also the most popular girl at the lunch table might also be a romance reader.

[Amanda Montell]

And one of those people might be pulling. And one of those people might not. It might not be the one you expect.

[Iman Harirukia]

Absolutely. And one of them is reading, like, dark erotica and the other one's reading a fluffy rom com, and you have no idea.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, my God.

[Alexa Martin]

I think maybe.

[Amanda Montell]

I think maybe I'm like a fluffy rom com.

[Iman Harirukia]

That's what you think now?

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, no, you're right. I'm gonna slip and slide. You're too early. You're too early on your journey. I'm too early. I can't make the call. Alexa, we would love to play a quickie little game with you. It's just a simple Would you rather Cult of Romance Novels edition? The rules, I think, are self explanatory. And the first round goes like this. Would you rather find yourself in a quintessential romance trope anytime you meet a new person? Like, oh, my God, here we go again. Friends to lovers, Be cute. Or realize all your hobbies are gateways to cults?

[Alexa Martin]

I mean, I feel like right now, all of my hobbies are gateways to cults. Anyway.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh my God.

[Alexa Martin]

Like, that's what it feels like. But actually, no, I do love the trope. If I could do the tropes, I'm. There's so many too. It just. There's. It would be never ending. There's endless opportunities.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, so true. What's your favorite trope? Can I ask Alexa?

[Alexa Martin]

I mean, well, like micro trope. Like, I love a. There's only one bed, right? Like, they're stuck somewhere and they check into a hotel and oh no, there's only one bed. I love that. I love an enemies to lovers. But I really love, like, writing second chance romance a lot.

[Iman Harirukia]

Oh my God. Oh my God.

[Amanda Montell]

That's my love story.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yep. You are a second chance Roman romance.

[Amanda Montell]

I married my high school fling who dumped me over AIM because he told me I was too grown up for him.

[Iman Harirukia]

Yeah, I'm friends to lovers. I knew. I knew my husband for three years before I really knew him. So anyway, love that. Switching gears, would you rather be a part of an Omegaverse or take part in a culty sex ritual?

[Alexa Martin]

Oh, my God. Omegaverse, I think.

[Amanda Montell]

Wait, what is that?

[Iman Harirukia]

So the Omegaverse has to do with, like, werewolf hierarchy. It's a part of the shifter romance subgenre of romance. Very popular on AO3, and it has to do with the Alpha, the Omega, and the Sigma. And their anatomy is, like, specifically designated for having sex with people within the pack. I don't think that we have time to go over knotting in this podcast, but when we get our matching tattoos, I'd be happy to explain it to you.

[Alexa Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Amanda Montell]

God, that will be a thrill. No one asked. But occulti sex ritual. I'm like, waiting to take part. It is like, why haven't they found me yet? I know, I'm here.

[Alexa Martin]

I have a podcast. I'm asking.

[Amanda Montell]

I know. I've been like bat signaling for years. That's so funny.

[Iman Harirukia]

Meanwhile, Alexa's like, I have been waiting to become an Omega for ages.

[Amanda Montell]

I can't wait to learn more about what that signifies. Okay, last. Would you rather. Would you rather get into a debate with a hardcore romance reader about why their favorite author is actually problematic or get into a debate with a swifty about Taylor not actually being a songwriting genius?

[Alexa Martin]

Oh my. Both sounds detrimental to my health minded bond.

[Iman Harirukia]

And your safety.

[Alexa Martin]

I think probably a romance reader of a problem problematic author, though. That feels easier than like, judging somebody's taste. Probably. Yeah.

[Amanda Montell]

Fair. What if you had to argue the opposite? That like, Someone was swearing that the author was problematic and you were defending that they weren't. Oh, that sounds harder.

[Alexa Martin]

I'm logging off the Internet. You're.

[Iman Harirukia]

You're deleting all your.

[Alexa Martin]

Under my weighted blanket in hiding.

[Amanda Montell]

Oh, good. Wow, Alexa. That's all our questions. That is our game. Thank you so much for being here on Sounds like a cult. If people want to keep up with you, your work and your prophecies. Where can they do that?

[Alexa Martin]

You can find me on Instagram. Lexambooks. I have a new book coming out in May in my last book that came out, which I listened to a lot for how to sell romance, which was kind of a Romance meets mlm. So like kind of cults intersecting. That's out now.

[Amanda Montell]

Amazing.

[Iman Harirukia]

We cannot wait to check that out. It sounds perfect.

[Alexa Martin]

Thank you. People are either like, that's fun, or you did what? So I'm glad.

[Amanda Montell]

Wonderful. Thank you so much.

[Alexa Martin]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Amanda Montell]

Okay, Iman, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of romance, not novels, falls into?

[Iman Harirukia]

This might not come as a surprise, but I think the cult of romance novels is a live your life. Yeah. I think that romance readers are operating from a place of joy. They want to heal and find community, and in the end of the day, the world is burning around us. Who doesn't want to feel a shred of hope with happily ever after?

[Amanda Montell]

Well, when you put it that way, yeah, I think. I mean, some of the examples that Alexa mentioned but didn't dwell on, of stalking, getting, you know, a little. A little too lost in the lore, not realizing that maybe we should keep this in the fictional part of our brains and lives. That feels a little scary. That feels like cult fandom gone wrong. And that makes me feel like there is a halo of wash your back back emanating from. Emanating from the.

[Iman Harirukia]

From the skies.

[Amanda Montell]

Emanating from the throbbing member of this group. But overall, you're probably right. We have covered recent cults like maga wives and anti vaxxers. And I'm looking at our list of groups we're excited to cover later this year. And I'm just like, it feels irresponsible not to classify this as a live your life.

[Iman Harirukia]

But remember, keep things on the page and not off it. Remember that just because someone may serve as inspiration for your favorite fan cast doesn't mean that you have license to send them creepy DMs over Instagram.

[Amanda Montell]

That's a really helpful reminder. Well, that is our show.

[Iman Harirukia]

Thanks so much for listening.

[Amanda Montell]

Join us for a new Cult next week, but in the meantime stay culty.

[Iman Harirukia]

But not too culty.

[Amanda Montell]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and hosted by Amanda Montel, Reese Oliver, Chelsea Charles, and Iman Harirukia. Our managing producer is Katy Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Kolb. Additional research for this episode by Lexi Perry. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse oundslikeacult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad [e-mail].

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