The Cult of The Amish

Summary

Sounds Like A Cult – "The Cult of The Amish" (Jan 27, 2026)

Hosts: Amanda Montell, Reese Oliver
Guest: Naomi Swartzentruber (ex-Amish content creator, memoirist)

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, hosts Amanda Montell and Reese Oliver investigate the Amish community through the lens of “cultishness”—unpacking its values, rules, traditions, and social structure. Featuring ex-Amish guest Naomi Swartzentruber, the episode explores lived experiences, dissecting what makes the Amish seem “cultish,” what’s misunderstood, and how mainstream fascination reflects broader cultural questions. The ultimate question: Where do the Amish land on the show’s cult spectrum—live your life, watch your back, or get the fuck out?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Amish: Myth vs. Reality

• Amanda and Reese share their perceptions: Amanda recalls childhood visits thinking the Amish were “like Colonial Williamsburg, a theme park vibe” (05:04), only later realizing their authentic separateness.
• Discussion: Despite public fascination, Amish strictness and insulation spark debate over their cultural portrayal and whether the insularity hides real harm (i.e., are we overlooking issues because they're "wholesome"?).

2. Introducing Naomi Swartzentruber ([14:16])

• Naomi is a former Swartzentruber Amish (one of the strictest sects), left at 17, and now a content creator and memoirist. She strives to “open up so the outside world can have a peek into what it is like to be Amish” (15:46).
• Naomi notes widespread misconceptions: Not all Amish go on Rumspringa, and while often portrayed as oppressive, some women in the community share significant responsibilities with men (16:36).
  • “Men and women, they support each other and the household, and that's how they're...so awesome.” — Naomi (16:49)

3. Values, Theology, and Structure

• Amish faith is religious but uniquely grounded in community, the church, and a strict set of rules called the Ordnung.
• Daily life is highly structured, e.g. prayers before/after meals, twice-daily family prayer sessions, church every other Sunday, self-sufficiency, and nostalgia-packed rituals like “coffee soup” Sundays (19:33–22:44).

4. Rules and Social Control

• Details of rigid dress codes, bans on technology, and lifestyle restrictions distinguish stricter sects (e.g., “no rubber buggy wheels,” “no double-pane windows,” “no propane lanterns”) (26:20–27:32).
• Enforcement comes from bishops and elders (mostly men, though women have some say). Social pressure and “nitpicking” (minor dress violations, apron pleat width, etc.) are persistent (27:40–28:09).

5. Divergence & Social Dynamics

• Amish communities vary by strictness; “more liberal” sects allow cell phones, electricity, whereas strict groups isolate themselves and even ostracize families who become less strict (29:25–30:23).
• “It's almost like different mini countries with different laws and goals.” — Amanda (30:23)

6. Shunning and Repercussions

• Shunning is temporary social exclusion (not total banishment), mostly for baptized adult members who break rules (seating exclusion, not eating together, no business transactions). Lasts weeks to a few months, until repentance (32:49–34:18).

  “Oh, that's so interesting. I totally thought being shunned meant being banished, but it just means being shamed.” — Amanda (33:27)

7. Language and Literacy

• Amish speak Pennsylvania Dutch at home, but church services, prayers, and religious texts are in German, which children struggle to understand.
  • Learning English starts at school from first grade, often enforced strictly (“...smack us with a kid yardstick and say, stick your tongue out and say 'mother this or that'...”) (36:59–38:23).
  • Outsiders are universally called “English,” regardless of ethnicity or nationality.

8. Isolation and Leaving

• Naomi’s departure was clandestine: “I ran away in the middle of the night because they would have done everything they could to keep me there.” (32:04, 45:02)
• Leaving is fraught and dangerous: Ex-members face language and cultural barriers, minimal outside support or preparation (“domestic refugee”; 07:10).
• Trauma: After leaving, Naomi was sexually abused and manipulated by a supposed benefactor, highlighting the vulnerability caused by Amish insularity and poor sex education (39:40–41:50).

9. Media Portrayal & Public Fascination

• Explores why the Amish are disproportionately famous (vs. other anabaptists), crediting ex-Amish voices on social media and sensationalist reality TV (e.g., Breaking Amish, Amish Mafia).
  • “There’s not really any Amish Mafia. It was a TV show.” — Naomi (51:51)
• Links to “tradwife,” homesteaders, and “cottagecore” nostalgia.

10. Listener Q&A Lightning Round ([53:07])

• Charismatic leader? Not really; bishops are rule enforcers, not cult personalities.
• Rumspringa? Real in less strict groups; a minority experience.
• Government/medicine? Amish pay some taxes, claim others' exemptions; use doctors/hospitals but prefer home remedies. Abortions extremely rare/frowned upon.
• Do Amish “convert” in? Not common among strict sects; more possible with liberal ones.
• Happiness? “Generally...most of them are happy.” — Naomi (60:58)

11. Verdict: Does It Sound Like a Cult? ([63:30])

• Both Amanda and Reese ultimately designate the Amish as “get the fuck out”—noting reverence for tradition can blind society to real dangers (abuse, lack of freedom, lack of sex ed), and that mainstream culture often excuses abuses under the guise of “religious liberty.”
  • “I think not knowing about the world around you is always inherently dangerous.” — Reese (64:10)
  • “If you start to have even one disqualifying factor, like you're interested in exploring your sexuality, then it's not going to work for you anymore.” — Amanda (65:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On insider/outsider perspective:
  “We call everyone that's not Amish English. Doesn't matter what color your skin is, what country they’re from. Everybody is English.” — Naomi (38:28)

• On shunning:
  “It just means being shamed...you're just not part of it.” — Amanda (33:27)

• On trauma and support:
  “There was a language barrier...no resources...these communities are protected, even if they are committing abuses.” — Amanda (42:24)

• On media myths:
  “There's not really any Amish Mafia. It was a TV show.” — Naomi (51:51)

• On self-expression and transformation:
  “Even that first night when I stepped on stage, even though it was overwhelming at the same time, I had this feeling of empowerment that I never had before.” — Naomi describing her first time stripping (48:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment/Event | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------|------------------| | Amanda & Reese intro/background | 05:04–09:30 | | Overview of Amish cultural perception | 03:26–04:25 | | Naomi Swartzentruber introduction | 14:16 | | Naomi on why she shares her story | 15:46 | | Amish values, rituals, theology | 17:47–22:44 | | Family dynamics, shunning explained | 24:49–34:18 | | Rules, dress codes, structure | 26:20–28:09 | | Language, literacy, “the English” | 36:59–38:35 | | Naomi’s departure and aftermath | 45:02–50:15 | | Trauma, sexual abuse, and support gaps | 41:50–43:24 | | Media fascination & public mythmaking | 51:17–52:18 | | Lightning round listener Q&A | 53:07–62:56 | | Final cult verdict and reflections | 63:30–66:54 |

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Tone & Language Notes

The tone throughout is probing, empathetic, and wryly humorous:

• Amanda and Reese balance seriousness (“this is a sensitive topic”) with playful references (“Can you imagine? They don’t even post on TikTok about it!”).
• Naomi brings openness and directness, not shying from painful details (“I had no sex education from the Amish; I was trapped again outside”).
• The hosts frequently self-reflect on their own biases and societal double standards regarding cults.

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Conclusion

The episode blends critical inquiry and compassionate storytelling to reveal how Amish life embodies many cult-like dynamics, particularly in controlling information, enforcing orthodoxy, and impeding exit. Naomi’s personal story illustrates both the community’s strengths and the harm its structures can enable. The hosts ultimately argue that while the Amish may appear “quirky” from afar, their insularity, coercion, and lack of exit support land them in the “get the fuck out” category on the show’s cult spectrum—while cautioning outsiders not to romanticize a way of life that can be deeply damaging for non-conformists.

Closing thought:
“It's live your life, get the fuck out if you want to, and definitely don't get the fuck in.” — Amanda (66:35)

Transcript

[A]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. I am a long time Squarespace user.

[B]

Truly.

[A]

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[C]

Kraft Mac and Cheese is better than 90s hip hop. We'll remind you of your childhood without making you feel incredibly old. Kraft Mac and Cheese Best thing ever.

[A]

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

[D]

Hello everyone. We do want listeners to be aware that this episode does cover topics of abuse, including sexual abuse. So please do take care when tuning in. And if that's a sensitive topic for you, feel free to skip this one. We'll catch you next week.

[B]

I just found out I have 132 nieces and nephews.

[A]

Are the Amish encouraged to have lots of children?

[B]

They just have a lot of kids because they don't believe in condoms or birth control. So when they get pregnant they just are going to have another kid. My mom and dad's generation, the average size family was like 14 to 16 kids and now a lot is like eight to 10. My sister, she takes these pills that she says are to prevent her from getting pregnant. She's like, I still get pregnant sometimes, but just not as often as I probably would sometimes. I know, but she has seven kids.

[A]

So this is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including Cultish and the Age of Magical Overthinking.

[B]

And I am your co host, Reese Oliver.

[D]

Sounds like a Cult's resident grad student and rhetoric scholar. Every week on this show we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist from Maga Wives to La Bluebo to try and answer the big question.

[A]

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really?

[D]

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live your life, a watch your back or a get the fuck out? After all, cultish influence falls along a spectrum and sometimes the most destructive groups in contemporary society don't look like the Midsummer esque compounds you'd expect. Sadly, the show is all about seriously analyzing and having a seriously wee laugh at the absurd ways in which we attempt to find meaning and community in 21st century capitalist hellscape America, where the cultiest dangers sometimes reveal themselves to us in the most unexpected of places. Places like our favorite clothing brands, influencers, fitness studios, snacks or down home communities full of wholesome neighbors who still spin their own yarn and use the buggy parking at Walmart and don't even post on TikTok about it.

[B]

Whaaaat?

[A]

Can you imagine? Indeed, culties. Today we are taking a horse and buggy ride into one of America's most mythologized communities. The Amish. A group that somehow manages to be both wildly familiar and deeply confounding. Famous for their bonnets and butter churns, their Pennsylvania pacifism, their roam springa rites of passage and rejection of technology. But the question remains. Are the Amisha cottagecore haven, a relatively harmless fringe religion of 400 some thousand or a high control cult predicated on isolation and shunning? All of which we just kinda tolerate because they've been in the US since the 1700s, though originally founded in Switzerland 50 or so years earlier. Fun fact. Fun fact. And have gone relatively scandal free sa reality TV show spectacle or two ever since.

[D]

Yeah, scandal free in this economy. I know that's really impressive and I do think it's because it's just because they're so quiet.

[A]

I think they are. They speak at a low volume, they.

[D]

Whisper in only amongst themselves and if they're problematic they're real boring about it. So we don't really care. We'll turn on the Duggars instead, who will let us film their Tater Tot casserole madness.

[B]

So.

[D]

So we are here to find out exactly who and what the Amish are. And you better stick around because we have a super special ex Amish guest joining us for a super culty tell all analysis of her time in the Amish. But first, Amanda, I'm wanting your general impressions and or experiences of the Amish.

[A]

Well, I've been really looking forward to this episode because I mean I've been fascinated by the Amish my whole entire life. I grew up in Maryland like an hour hour and a half from Amish town in Pennsylvania. I remember going on tours of it as a kid and I don't think I really appreciated that this was like a real community, earnestly living bonnet clad. I kind of thought it was like Colonial Williamsburg where it was just a bunch of reenactors, like a theme park vibe. For sure. I didn't really process that these were real people really living this way until I guess I started watching YouTube clips of the TLC show Breaking Amish in college. And I mean, I knew that that was a spectacle and was suspicious about how much was played up for the cameras, how much was real. But then I took a serious interest in the Amish three years ago when I attended and actually spoke at a conference in D.C. called the Rights and Religions Forum. I think I've brought it up on the podcast before that was organ and attended by and aimed at people who grew up in super, super high control religions, everything from ultra, ultra orthodox Judaism to the fundamentalist Mormons to the Amish, and wanted help deconstructing those experiences so that they could still participate in community and even faith based community without the sort of like traumatizing toxicity and control and all the things we try to find on this show that they grew up with. And there was an Amish person who gave a talk and you know, again, I always just thought like that the Amish were this quaint community that was kind of like over dramatized and played up for tlc. But this ex Amish survivor who spoke was like, very clearly not okay. She seemed pretty fragile because of all that she had experienced. I remember she spoke a lot about how damaging it was not growing up with a proper education, sexual education, scholarly education in general. I remember her referring to herself as a domestic refugee.

[D]

It's a loaded term. Yeah.

[A]

Because when she left the community, she had nowhere to go. There was a language barrier. And we'll hear from our guest about her experience with that later because it does get really dark. And yeah, I mean, there are so many protections by our Constitution for religious freedom, which are there, I think for like a good reason. America was like ostensibly allegedly founded on the concept of religious freedom, but also a lot of like really destructive groups end up getting protected and like abusing young people and adults without any accountability or repercussions because of that constitutional protection. So once I heard this talk from this woman who clearly had so many psychological scars, I was like, damn, I never thought about that. And that is definitely something I'm curious about discussing on the POD one day. And Here we are. What about you, Rhys?

[B]

Yeah, the Amish have always, I guess.

[D]

They'Ve kind of, like, bubbled up here and there in my childhood and in my readings and throughout my life. In California, Mormons are definitely the dominant fringe fundamentalist Christian group. So I feel like dalmish don't really get a ton of cultural attention or love. So I feel like I just kind of knew that they were, like, people that kind of opted out of technology and that to me, they seemed the most culturally entrenched in the fundamentalist lifestyle, but, like, the least religiously entrenched, which I still think is, like, kind of true. I don't know. And then, yeah, I remember my grandparents, like, when they started traveling a lot as they became retirees, they were like, guys, we saw buggy parking at the Walmart, and I was like, oh, wow, there's people, like, doing it. And my first thought was like, I wonder what that must feel like to watch the world around you and just, like, opt out. So I've always kind of had, like, a weird respect for it. Because we're in an attention economy. Everything's designed to, like, take our attention and eat up all of our selfhood. And, like, I'm a moth and fuck all of these. All of this. All of this bright light. I'm going over here in my darkness, literally.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. I mean, that's one way that they're very different from Mormons, because Mormons have embraced social media more than anyone. Momtok would not survive a day on the Amish prairie.

[D]

Turn your own cold foam for your dirty diet, Dr. Pepper.

[C]

Ew.

[A]

No, I agree with you. Like, the Amish have largely stuck to their guns on the no technology thing, and you got to give it to them for committing to the bit that hard for fucking 300 years. But then again, as much as I would like to not be on my phone so much, I did clock that that lady at the rights and religions forum had been through it. Had been fucking through it.

[D]

Yeah. To be an uninformed human and to be like, I'm just gonna. Yeah, it's also very. A very, very privileged reality to me that. And that's very clear that it's like, I just going to be over here and not think about anything but just vibe, essentially.

[A]

And yet, like, any of us could choose to start a compound and not have technology, but I guess that's how cults form.

[D]

Yeah, any of us could. Someone should make a show about that.

[A]

Someone should make a podcast about that. This is going to be a really, really interesting episode because. Well, first of all, I want to make the disclaimer that we're interviewing one particular person about her particular story and it's not representative of every AM Amish story. And that's true of all of the sort of like ex cultists that we chat with on Sounds like a cult. Like they're only ever going to be able to represent their experience. And so we're going to be establishing our informal verdict on this show based mostly on that. But also I think while it's fun to talk about super zeitgeisty cults like Labubu or whatever, it's also interesting to do ones that have been kind of hiding in plain sight for a long time to see how they compare and what outsiders conceptions of them say about us and our values. So after the break, we'll introduce our special ex Amish guest. This podcast is ever so proudly brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. So whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it super easy to set up a gorgeous website, connect with your audience, and to sell things. Anything from products to content to even your valuable time. I am a longtime Squarespace user. Actually my darling co host Reese just asked me what my recommendation was for how to set up a website for her and I was like, sincerely, dude, it's Squarespace. Truly. If you've never set up a website in your life, or if you're like a old pro, there's so much to benefit from here, including their design intelligence features which combine decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to help you design a website that perfectly matches your brand. Squarespace Payments is also truly the easiest way to manage all of your payments in one place. If you're selling things on your website and if you're truly out here to do good in the world, Squarespace is also amazing because you can set up a fundraiser on there. Accepting donations and managing donors is super easy thanks to Squarespace. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com/cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Are you sick of your clothes in 2026? Don't stress. Quince has you covered with luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing, building a wardrobe that lasts. It's truly my favorite place to purchase staples. I'm talking 100% silk tops, Mongolian cashmere sweaters. And one of the best things about quints, let's be honest, is that they cost a fraction of similar brands. I am always shook by the premium quality, by the quince pieces that I get. My favorite boots are from quints. My favorite sweater is from quints, especially considering that they don't cost more. These pieces are made with high quality materials from ethical, trusted factories. There is literally no downside to patronizing quints. You'll support yourself, you'll support this wonderful brand and most importantly, you'll be supporting our show. Refresh your wardrobe with quintessential don't wait. Go to quince.com SLAC for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/ to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comSLAC to help us understand the Amish community, its role in American history, and its influence in society today, we're pleased to welcome Naomi Swartzentruber, the ex Amish content creator behind Amish Amish Inspiration on social media. Naomi also self published a memoir titled the Amazing Adventures of an Amish Stripper, which details her cult hop from a strict Amish childhood to a long career as a stripper, as well as her recovery from addiction and more.

[D]

Naomi, welcome to Sounds like a Cult.

[B]

Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

[D]

So we are going to ask Naomi some of our own questions and then we solicited approximately 400 million questions from all of you curious culties on Instagram about the Amish and we are going to try and relay as many of those as we can.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like chomping at the bit for these questions. I've met Amish people before, but I've never gotten to, I don't want to say interrogate. I've never gotten to ply someone with your experience with unfiltered questions. So we really appreciate your generosity in being here.

[B]

Of course.

[D]

Yeah, it's not polite. It kind of feels like seeing a celebrity where it's like you want to play it really cool and you don't want to be like that person who asks all the questions and you want to just like treat them like regular people. That's very much how I feel. Not. I have it myself.

[A]

Yeah, it is very. Sounds like a cult to be starstruck by an ex Amish person.

[D]

Yes. I recently moved to New York from California and we drove here. And on our drive we stopped in Salt Lake City, Utah and I was taking pictures right and left. I was being such a tourist in.

[A]

Front of the all of the Mormon.

[D]

All of the, all of the culty sites there, just gaping and gawking.

[B]

I did that sometimes too. When I'm out, I'm like, wow, there's other people that are so different too, and it's amazing. And I'm interested in that and learning about other cults and people as well.

[D]

Yes, you've come to the right place. Can you just introduce yourself to our listeners and share with us what motivated you to start making content about the Amish online?

[B]

My name is Naomi Swartzentruber. I'm 45 years old. I grew up Swartzentruber Amish, which is one of the strictest Amish communities. And then I ran away when I was 17 and I've had a very interesting life since. And I was motivated to start creating Amish content because I realized that there are so many people in the world that are curious about this community that I feel like people feel like it's forbidden or they're so in their little world and they just don't know about the Amish or the life that they live. So that's what inspired me to start creating content to kind of open up so the outside world can have a peek into what it is like to be Amish or their way of life.

[A]

What are some of the most surprising, surprising results that you've found from that journey into opening up about the Amish?

[B]

The most surprising how some people have so many misconceptions about them. For example, like everybody goes on Rumspringer. That is not true. There is roomspringer, but not for the strict ones. And also like women are second class citizens, but I don't feel like they are because the mother and the father or the man and the woman in the house each have a very important role and together is what makes them strong. They are all about community and the man and the woman, they support each other and the household and that's how they're, I feel like so awesome because of how they work together.

[A]

So it's interesting in the videos that I've seen of you speaking about the Amish community and just now, you have a lot of positive things to say about it and are willing to defend certain misconceptions about the Amish, but at the same time, in your own words, you did run away. And so to understand your experience Better. We want to ask, first off, what was the fundamental theology and value system that you grew up with in this stricter than average Amish community? And how is the structure and the lifestyle of the community set up to support those values?

[B]

So the fundamental theology is they believe in God. It's not a religion, but they are very religious. And they have the church and the community, and all of that together makes up the Amish. And they have what's called the Ort Nung, which is the set of rules that each sect follows. And coming from one of the strictest ones, we had very, very strict rules. And I really enjoyed growing up like that. But as I got older, I realized that there was this great big world outside, and it felt so forbidden. But I was very curious about it, and I started rebelling as a teenager. When I was 17, I ran away. But as far as, like, what kept together, I think it's like the church and the community and how they all, like, operate, and they're. They're so strict, and that's why I rebelled. Like, they're just so strict. Like, the rules. I can't even imagine being there with all those rules now. But I love the ways of the Amish as well, because there's so much simplicity. Like, they don't have cars to deal with. They travel by horse and buggy. They can and preserve all their food. They make all their clothes. They garden, they farm, they have sawmills. They do so many things. They're very innovative people and resourceful when it comes to finding work. And we had an outhouse, only cold running water. There were all these things that I feel like I take for granted now sometimes because it's so nice. It's, like, luxurious to go to a regular bathroom and have a toilet and have a hot bath that you don't have to just heat the water. It's pretty awesome.

[D]

You say there are lots of rules. I'm curious what some of these rules and rituals, good, bad, whatever you want to share, are that you grew up with, that are pretty normal within the Amish community, but would be considered strange to outsiders.

[B]

Something that comes to mind right off the bat is every morning before breakfast, we would kneel, and my dad would say a prayer from this book. And then at night, before we went to bed, we also all had to gather in the living room, and we did another prayer. And then before and after each meal, the Amish bow their heads and do a silent prayer. And so that's something that we did. And we had three meals every day. We went to church every other Sunday. Only I know they're very religious, but they only go to church every other Sunday. This is part of their way of life. But as far as like rules and rituals, I can't really think of, like, rituals. Or maybe that's the part of me that thinks it's normal into the outside world. It's not normal. So I don't know.

[A]

I know that's such an important sentiment because, you know, when we think of a ritual, I don't know, personally, I would think of like, like someone constructing a shrine and like doing a dance around it. Like something really freaky. But for me, and someone might think this is culty. You know, my husband and I have a ritual of making these like really specific iced oat milk cortados to drink every morning. And we're like, really particular about our coffee. And like, some people would say that like, specialty coffee is a cult. And to me I'm just like, no, this is like a necessity in our way of life. But like, someone else might be like, oh my God, I can't believe you put that much effort into that. And so it is interesting to have to like answer an open ended question, like, what's a ritual to you? When it's like, I don't know, like, I just grew up praying at this time and approaching music this way or approaching literature this way, or gatherings, parties, birthdays, I don't know, you know, like, it's hard to think.

[B]

Yeah. So other things that are like rituals, I guess it's like Sunday mornings we would have coffee soup and sausage for breakfast. And almost every Sunday night we had. They call them cheeseburgers, but they're actually grilled cheese and egg sandwiches and tomato chunks. Like, that was like our Sunday night dinners. So it's interesting. And we made coffee soup some other days too. But that was like a big thing. I know. What is coffee soup, right?

[D]

Yeah, I'm gonna need more than that.

[B]

There's a couple different ways that we would make it. Sometimes we just heated up milk and put instant coffee and sugar into the milk. And then we would have saltine crackers. So we would crumble them and put them on our plate. And then you put the milky coffee, I'm into broth on this crackers. And it's actually really, really good. I love it.

[D]

It's delicious.

[A]

This sounds fundamentally against my religion.

[B]

Another way we would heat up the milk and we would bring it to a boil and they put coffee grounds. But then we would have. They would mix it like that and put brown sugar. But we would have to strain the coffee grounds and that we would use homemade bread when we did it, the coffee grounds, and we would crumble it into a bowl. And then we would pour the milky coffee soup over the bread and we ate it. And in the summer, we often had bread soup. When I was a little kid, that was just cold milk with brown sugar on bread that was really hard to eat. And sometimes we got to put bananas or strawberries with it. That was a little easier to get down. But those are some things that are very popular among the Amish that they.

[D]

Do a lot of sweet foods.

[B]

They have amazing food as well. That's one of the things I miss most is the Amish meals because they cannot preserve their food. So, like, even the meats and stuff, it's so much different, but it's amazing and delicious.

[A]

It sounds like there's a lot of tradition and nostalgia surrounding these group meals full of goods that you prepared yourself carefully in this ritualistic way. I can see the appeal of that.

[B]

And also on Christmas, when I was younger, my dad's brothers and sisters that lived in Michigan, I grew up in Michigan, we would all go to my grandparents house and we would have like this. This massive, like, homecoming on Christmas. That was a big thing when I was growing up as well. And then as I got older and more of my aunts and uncles moved away, we didn't do it quite as often, but we still would do it sometimes. That was always really fun to be with all of our many, many cousins that I have. I just found out I have 132 nieces and nephews. I was like, what? I couldn't believe it.

[A]

Are the Amish encouraged to have lots of children? Is that like a value?

[B]

They just have a lot of kids because they don't believe in condoms or birth control. So when they get pregnant, they just are gonna have another kid. And it seems like now when my mom and dad's generation, the average size family was like 14 to 16 kids. My generation, it was more like 12 or 14. And now a lot is like 8 to 10. Some still have more. Absolutely. But it feels like there's not quite as many kids as they used to be. And I'm not sure why they are not having quite as many. Except like, my sister, she takes these pills that she says that are to prevent her from getting pregnant. She's like, I still get pregnant sometimes, but just not as often as I probably would sometimes. I know, but she has seven kids, so. Whoa.

[A]

So you're still in touch with your family even though you've left?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I go visit my parents now, and some of my siblings live in Iowa, and I go see them every summer. I was there for 10 days with my daughter this summer, and I have. I have one sister and three brothers in Michigan, and I'm really close with them, and I go there and visit them in the summer as well.

[A]

Is that normal? Because I feel like in a lot of, you know, sex or like, fringier religions, the stereotype is that once you leave, you're kind of banished and you can't interact with your family anymore. Does that ever happen with the Amish?

[B]

That happens sometimes. And that's also kind of a misconception because a lot of people think that once somebody leaves the Amish, they can never go see their family or their shunning. But you can only get shunned if you were baptized. In the community I came from, you get baptized when you're 18 or older. And I left when I was 17, so I never got shunned. Sure, when I left, it was really hard to go visit them at first because they were really sad and heartbroken that I left. But it just took time for me to be more respectful and not so rebellious after I left. And then once I started respecting them, we rebuilt our relationship again, and I'm grateful for them. This last summer when I went to visit my dad, he talked more to me he ever has. And I was like, wow. Normally when I would go visit, he would say a few words, but he would just kind of sit there and sometimes tears come down his cheek. But this time he, like, opened up and talked to me and he talked to my daughter. It was really amazing and heartwarming.

[D]

Sometimes you just need that, like, space.

[B]

Happy to hear.

[A]

Of all families. Yeah, right.

[D]

I know. Like, I know that's. That sounds familiar. So at the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that your son sect of the Amish particularly are relatively strict. Wondering what made your sect stricter than others?

[B]

There's a lot of things that makes them stricter than others. For example, how they dress. Like, the dresses can't have any patterns. The shirts, pants, they are very dark colored. The girls have to have the same buttons. The colors have to be the same as the dress. The men also on their shirts, the buttons and the thread have. Has to be the same colors. There's no rubber bucky wheels or wagon wheels. And just the way they dress and the things they can have. For example, they can have little Honda entrance to Run the washing machine and to pump the water from the well and to run like a table saw. They can have entrance to run their sawmills, but they can't have, like propane lanterns, gas powered lawnmowers, no double pane window. Like, there's all these strict rules. Even on their buc EE's, they don't have any triangles, which is extremely dangerous because so many accidents have been happening, especially in the area where I grew up. They just have like little reflectors on the back and then one lantern on each side. That's not very bright at all. Those are some of the ways. And the bonnets, they have to cover all the hair. The sleeves can only be rolled up to the elbows. No power tools and no running water except cold running water in the house.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

I would struggle.

[D]

Yeah, for sure. That's just a lot of thought and mental energy into like everything you do, right?

[B]

And like, they are very nitpicky. So this is something that really would drive me kind of crazy when I was there. They would complain and be so nitpicky. How our clothes was. Like, if our cape was too far off our shoulder, our bonnet didn't come forward far enough. The little pleats on the apron were too far apart. The light, the color of the dress was too light. Like, these are things that they would really like. They take this very serious.

[A]

Who's they? Like, who's in charge and why do they care so much?

[B]

The bishop and the elders. And the elders are the men and the women. But the women cannot be like preachers or deans or bishops. But they still do help make decisions when it comes to that kind of stuff. And they are very stern and strict about these things of how they dress.

[D]

Where does that come from?

[B]

I really, honestly, I'm not sure. Except this guy Jacob, he broke away from the Mennonites a long time ago. And then they just like stayed in this little narrow way of living. Like, they didn't progress with technology, if you will. And oftentimes when I would ask my mom and dad, like, why do we have to dress like this? Or why do we have to do this or that, they would just say, it's not our way, or this is just the way it is. They would never really tell us why. But I've done some research and I'm like, oh, okay. So it comes from this guy Jacob. But why? It is. But there's many different sects of Amish and they have broken away from the strict Amish, and I call them more liberal. For example, My youngest sister, the only thing really separating us is the way she dresses. And she doesn't have a car. She can have electricity, a cell phone. They can drive tractors. So they can have light colored dresses, short dresses. The bonnets don't even really. I mean, they're bonnets, but they're like way back and they're those heart bonnets and not like the way ours used to be. So it's a lot more freedom.

[A]

How do the stricter Amish view the more liberal Amish?

[B]

They don't really like, they don't want to live amongst each other. For example, one of my brothers recently in Michigan, he left a strict church to go to a less strict church and he bought a place that didn't have any buildings. And meanwhile, so they had to stay where they lived until they had their place ready to move. And the community, in the strict Amish community was very, almost offended by them. They stopped letting the kids go to their school. They didn't like seeing the buggy on their road. So they, they don't want to live amongst each other. So there was like this road north of town that separated north of town Amish. And then like we were in the middle and then the south of town, there was another big road that separated us from the even less stricter Amish. So it's almost like we're supposed to have blinders. And even though they interact, but they don't want us to like get off the beaten path and be influenced by them, but they do interact a lot with each other and do business.

[A]

It's almost like different mini countries with different laws and different goals for their population, I guess.

[B]

Right. Like some of them can have phones in shacks outside near the house and others can't. Then others can have cell phones in the house. Like it's. I grew up Amish and it's confusing to me sometimes why some can do this and others can't, I don't know.

[A]

I do want to understand how the Amish compares to larger socio spiritual groups. So to zoom out a little bit, it's common in more mainstream religions and communities to have different denomination and different levels of strictness. You know, like in Judaism there's ultra reform, reform, conservative, Orthodox, ultra Orthodox. And it goes all the way up the spectrum. And yeah, there might be like a little bit of judgment, especially at the two extremes. There would be like a world of judgment. But I think what makes the Amish raise eyebrows more? Well, a number of things. I mean, they're a newer group than Judaism and There are jokes that, like, cult plus time equals religion and such, so it's partially a matter of perspective, but also the fact that they are so separate from mainstream society and are so distinctive by their style of dress, and the fact that they're so siloed geographically definitely raises some eyebrows. But when you ask your parents, why do we do this? And they answer with, this is just the way it's always done, that's a dialogue that happens in more mainstream religions too. So it's just interesting to analyze what makes this seem cultier than Catholicism, really.

[B]

Another thing that I feel like that makes it cultish is they do so much to keep us there. It's hard for them to accept when we leave. Like, I ran away in the middle of the night because they would have done everything they could have to kept me to keep me there if I would have told them I was leaving. And my sister noticed that I was leaving, and she did everything. She tried to keep me there. And thankfully she was. Went to sleep finally, and I was able to escape, but it's so crazy to me.

[D]

Yeah, like, not letting. Learning that you're attending a new church and not allowing the kids to go to school anymore, it sounds like there are some pretty intense repercussions for breaking that bond. What happens when you break other rules, like maybe dress code like you were talking about?

[B]

Well, if you're a member of the church, and when I say a member of the church, I mean the people that are baptized. So people 18 and older. So if they have a dress code violation, sometimes they'll get a warning and they have to, like, fix it. But if they don't, then they'll be shunned. Like, the members will shun them until they do what they're supposed to do. What does that entail when they get shunned? That just means that they can't eat at the same table as the other members. They can't do business transactions with other members during that time. And being shunned can last two weeks. It can last a month. It could last two months, but generally it doesn't last very long.

[A]

Oh, that's so interesting. I totally thought being shunned meant being banished, but it just means being shamed.

[B]

Yeah, like, you're just not part of it. And like, for example, after church services, when they were done singing and preaching and stuff, if there was something going on in the community, when the singing and all that stopped, all the people, the kids that were not baptized, they had to leave the living room and they would Shut the doors, and then the memories will have a meeting, and. And sometimes people would come out there and they'd have their head kind of hanging, and they would literally leave. They weren't allowed to stay for lunch, and that would mean somebody got shunned. So, for example, in two weeks, if the people, like, admitted in what they did or whatever, then the people would forgive them and they would be accepted back in to the church, and life goes on as normal. So it's not forever. It's just for a little bit, and then they forgive them and you move on.

[A]

You know, what's so interesting is that a lot of these kind of shocking, seeming institutionalized rules that you're articulating here definitely show up in more mainstream places. Like in Amish communities, women do contribute to making formal decisions, but they're not allowed to hold the position of bishop or whatever. You know, we can sort of, like, gawk and express horror at that. But, like, look at our government, look at our society in general. Like, it's the same thing. Like, yeah, women are allowed. You know, we have women senators and we have, you know, females in public positions of power. But the unspoken rule is that women are not allowed to be the president. Or, like, this shunning thing. I experienced this in the middle school cafeteria. You know, like, this sort of thing I definitely feel like is more relatable than it seems at first blush. It's just the cultish element is its formal institutionalization. The fact that these have been written as doctrine, as rules in stone. And I actually don't even know what's cultier like it being written in stone. And so, you know, that's the rule or it being unspoken. But I guess the fact that they want you to stay so badly is another factor that get those spidey senses tingling.

[B]

Yes, absolutely.

[D]

I'm wondering, is there an opposite to being shunned? Like, is there some kind of ordained status one can be given wherein, like, everyone around, around knows that they're a particularly good community member or something?

[B]

I don't think so. They're very big into community and supporting each other and being there for the families. Like, everybody. Like, for example, if somebody goes to the hospital and there's a big hospital bill, like, the Amish church is like, the people come together and they help pay that off. So that's like the community. They stick together and help each other.

[A]

That's a good question, Rhys, because in cult analysis, sometimes experts will talk about how a charismatic leader will preside over a member's rewards and Punishments. And it sounds like the Amish have the punishment side on luck, but the reward seems to just be like your acknowledgement and participation in what seems to be their conception of an idyllic, egalitarian utopia. So my background is in linguistics, and the book that I wrote is about cult language. And I'm so curious about language and literacy within the Amish community. I, you know, have heard about Pennsylvania Dutch, which I understand is not actually Dutch, but a derivative of German. And you speak with an accent. And so I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the Amish approaches to language and literacy and how those approaches might isolate members from the outside world as well.

[B]

So their language is Pennsylvania Dutch. And it's, like you said, very similar to German. And what's interesting to me is their Bibles, and this is not for all Amish, but the community I came from in the more strict way ones, their prayer books and Bibles are in German. So when they preach, it's in German. It's not the language that we speak. I find it so absurd, actually, because they want to be so close to God and they want to instill all this God fearing stuff into the kids and everyone. But they preach in a language that the kids are not old enough to like learn German yet. They don't even know what the preacher is preaching about. So maybe that's a way of keeping them there somehow. On Sundays when we didn't have church, my mom and dad, they would read from the prayer books and Bibles to us in German. And in fifth grade, we actually have to learn how to spell, read and write and stuff in German. But I already knew most of it because of my mom. She was very awesome and I was very interested in the language and determined to learn it even before fifth grade. So we start school in first grade when we're six, they have to start learning English. We had to speak in English during class, and I did not like this at first because I didn't like how it sounded when I spoke English and I couldn't pronounce the th sounds. And my aunt was not very kind. She would smack us with a kid yardstick and say, stick your tongue out and say mother this or that. And it would be so strict with us. But we learned it, I learned it, and I'm grateful that I learned how to speak it.

[A]

Wow, okay. And is it true that you refer to secular people on the outside as English people?

[B]

Yes. We call everyone that's not Amish English. It doesn't matter what color your Skin is what country they're from. Everybody is English.

[A]

I always found that so interesting as a piece of sort of like us versus them labeling or whatever. Like, oh, the English, English people I know, right. Do you find that the sort of language barriers can be a kind of hurdle to leaving? Because it sounds like even if an Amish person leaves and starts dressing in English clothes and can kind of like pass as a non Amish person, the remnants of their upbringing are still detectable in the way that they speak. Do you find that that has played a role in your life and all?

[B]

Maybe at first it was kind of hard because I had a really strong accent. But the people that took me and they had an 11 year old son and he was determined to make me speak English well. He would sit there for hours and make me sit there and he would teach me. He's like, you have to speak English the right way if you're going to be English. So it wasn't that big of a deal for me, but I could see how it could be kind of challenging for some. I was very shy when I left to speak English to people that I didn't know. But I got over that pretty quickly. I was like, okay, I just have an accent and that's okay.

[A]

Was the family that took you in.

[B]

It'S interesting, but not so good. The guy was 33 and I was 17 and he started sexually taking advantage of me even before I left. And I didn't know he had a wife. I didn't leave to be with him. I just saw it as an opportunity for me to have a place to live. So I asked him if I could live with him and run away. And he told me if I would take care of his mom that had a lot of medical needs. And I was like, okay. So I stayed there at first for a couple months, but I was very lonely and often thought about going back to being Amish because there was nothing for me to do. And a couple months after I left, Christine and Kevin, they remodeled their storage room and I moved in there. And it was really hard because Christine was like a mom to me. And I knew what Kevin and I were doing was so wrong. But I was in this hard spot because they told me if I wanted to be English, I needed to learn the ways of the English and that they would support me financially until I was 18. So now I. I am kind of trapped again because it's almost even worse than being Amish because now I don't have a job. I wanted to get a job as soon as I left so I could support myself. But now I'm at this family's house and they're supporting me financially, and we're having sex, me and the husband. And I don't know, if I say no to him, will I be kicked out and be fed to the wolves? So it was this really hard spot to be in. And I left in July of 97 and January the next year, I got my first boyfriend. And even after that relationship, my sexual relationship, relationship with Kevin continued. It was awful. It was so much trauma. And he took advantage of me when I was vulnerable. I had no sex education from the Amish, and it was a very challenging and difficult place to be in after leaving the Amish, especially after I had planned that I would get a job and do all these things so I could be on my own. So in January, I got my first boyfriend. He was in Ohio, but he moved to Michigan. And that year, in August, him and I moved to Minnesota. And that's when I was like, wow, I'm finally free of this torture. It wasn't actual physical torture. It just was torturing me mentally. And I didn't know how to get out of the situation. But moving away was amazing. And it was hard. Very, very hard.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, I am so sorry you experienced that. To me, like, everything you've shared really highlights how messed up mainstream America's attitude toward communities like the Amish is. Because there are no resources, or at least very few, for folks who want to leave these. These communities are protected, even if they are committing abuses. There's really no system in place to help people transition and build a life outside of that strict community. And your story really reflects that. And I'm so sorry.

[B]

When something happens amongst Amish, like sexual abuse and things like that, they try to sweep those things under the rug and deal with it within the church rather than going to, like, the police and stuff. Stuff. I'm on a healing journey, and I've had to forgive myself and him, and that's how I'm able to heal, because I have to acknowledge what was going on and what happened. And I, for years, just shoved it down. And I didn't realize it was there until I started writing my book. It brought all this trauma, and I was like, oh, my goodness, it was so hard but therapeutic and healing to write my book. And I'm so grateful that I wrote my book because it has really helped me in so many ways as far as healing and my journey to a better way of life and standing up for myself and not let people take advantage of me like I did when I was so young and vulnerable.

[A]

Memoir is amazing. I think it's the hardest genre to write. For those listening, this memoir is once again called the Amazing Adventures of an Amish Stripper. You can buy it on the Bad Place Amazon.

[B]

Let's do it.

[C]

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[D]

So we've shared a little bit about what happened after you left. And you had said that the moment you left was very high stakes for you and so you had to do it like in the middle of the night because otherwise you would have been stopped. And I'm wondering both longer term and shorter term, what was going through your head and what your thought process process was that kind of broke your shelf, you could say, or pushed you to that moment made you realize like, I have to leave.

[B]

I got caught sneaking out. I used to sneak out with the English boys. I'll just call them English boys since that's what we call them, an Amish. And I got caught one night and that's when I realized that it was best for me to leave because I wanted to be free and have freedom. I loved music When I was 13, my brothers and sisters and our cousins, we got a radio and 15 a camera. And music became such a big part of my life and all the fun stuff I did when I would sneak out with the English boys. So after getting caught I was like, it's the best option because I don't want to keep sneaking out. I knew I wanted freedom. I craved it. It Was like this burning desire and fire that I needed to get out and experience this outside world that was so forbidden. And so that's what really made me make up my mind. Because that's when I realized that there was more to my journey than being on my Amish.

[A]

It's so fascinating, like, what causes some people to feel, like, perfectly content and others to have this, like, nagging, unquenchable thirst to get out?

[B]

I definitely had the nagging and sired. I just. I had to go. Like, I was just. It was calling me. I had to world out there free. Yes.

[D]

What kind of things were they threatening you with that might have existed out here or the costs of leaving that they were holding over your head to keep you there? And how much of that ended up being true?

[B]

The biggest thing is they think that we won't get to heaven if we leave. They think that we're going to go to hell. That is, like, the number one thing they hold over us. And for many years, when I would go back to visit, he would just kind of, like, corner me and be like, you know, there's still time to save you. You don't have to choose hell. And that would just, like, fire me up. And I would get so, like, fiery. And for a while after I left, I believed that. But the people that took me in, the lady and her mom, they were very big into going to church and stuff. And they kept reassuring me and telling me that not only Amish people get to heaven. And when I was able to let that go is when I started to feel actually freer and more open and relaxed of not being Amish. But that was the biggest thing that comes to mind.

[A]

Yeah, that's a huge threat, like, eternal damnation. I wouldn't be comfortable with that either.

[B]

It was a pretty terrible feeling to think that I would just go to hell.

[A]

Where are you at with respect to community now? And, like, how did you start stripping?

[B]

I respect the Amish community. I think that it's amazing that there's still Amish people. But I started stripping when I was 19. After my first boyfriend, he broke up with me. I moved to Minnesota in August of 98, and the next year, in March, he broke up with me. And six months later, I became a stripper. And I was a stripper for 20 years, and I loved it. That was like this whole other side that I had no clue that was inside of me because before I was a stripper, I was ashamed of my body. And I thought that I had to keep myself covered up and Even that first night when I stepped on stage, even though it was overwhelming at the same time, I had this feeling of empowerment that I never had before. And it like opened this side of me that I didn't know was there. And every time I would go on stage, it was the greatest feeling ever. Like this confidence and just empowerment. And I love doing pole work. And it was. It was like the place where I could express myself in true freedom and nobody could do anything to me. I could just be up there and be myself. It was amazing.

[D]

That's beautiful.

[A]

You have led a life. No one can accuse you of not having led a life.

[D]

I know some stories.

[B]

Being a stripper opened my eyes to this world that I thought was really horrible. My first boyfriend, his cousin, she lived with us for a little bit and I was so sure that she was a stripper because she would leave in the afternoons and come home in the middle of the night. And sometimes in the morning there would be stockings and fishnets hanging in the shower and I'd be like, she's a stripper. What a slut. Like, I was so upset about it. Like, it caused so many fights. I was like, why would you let somebody like that live at our house? And after becoming a stripper, I was like, oh, I was so horrible and judgmental. I just didn't know. I was not educated about it. So becoming a stripper, it helped me to be open minded and not so judgmental and not just about strippers, but in all areas of life and in general.

[A]

That's amazing. I love that journey.

[D]

It's a pretty hard 180.

[B]

Yeah, it was definitely different. And then the drugs and addiction, that was another thing that was part of my journey. I'm not proud of it, but I believe we have to go through the things that we go through. And I'm grateful that I was able to get away from the drugs and addiction. And I think that growing up Amish, like, I thought about my Amish family so much when I was an addict and I was so worried that they were going to find out. And I was just be like, what are they going to do if they find out? Or I wasn't raised to do this. Like, I'm stronger than this. And one day I just left it and I got an opportunity to move to Las Vegas. And I moved to Las Vegas because when I went there with one of my clients during my drug years, I realized on the trip that if I wanted to stop being an addict, I had to stop hanging out with the people I was hanging out with. And so I moved to Las Vegas and thank goodness I'm okay and it worked out.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like. And this is such a common experience whether someone grows up in a super strict community or not. Sometimes we have to kind of jump out of the frying pan and into the fire a few times before we can make our way off the stove or wherever we want to take that analogy. And I feel like the stricter or the more toxic the environment that you come from, the less prepared you'll be to. To find something healthy next. Okay, we have a few more questions from us and then we want to do a lightning round of listener questions because they're just so juicy. But this is just something that I'm really curious about. There is, as we've discussed, so much mythology and mystery surrounding the Amish, leading people to wonder if it's a cult or not. In part, I think, thanks to media portrayals like that TLC show Breaking Amish. First of all, how do you think the Amish Amish got so well known in the mainstream US compared to other fringy communities like the Two by Twos or the Shakers or the Hutterites? Like, why are the Amish so well known?

[B]

I've been thinking about that and I think that probably a couple things. One is there's so many ex Amish and now there's the social media platforms and people sharing their experiences. And also that show like the Amish Mafia and the Breaking Amish, which are Hollywood, it. There's not really any Amish Mafia. It was a TV show, but there's not in real life Amish Mafia. So I feel like people are so curious about the Amish and now we have these platforms and I'm sharing the experiences of it and other people are as well.

[A]

I'm curious too, like in terms of this curiosity in the Amish that never seems to wane. Do you think that the surge of tradwife content online and homesteaders and the rise of conservatism in the US in general have renewed an interest in the Amish whale life in any way?

[B]

I would imagine so, because there are a lot of homesteaders and people like that that are out there and doing things like that. So absolutely, it could be.

[A]

I have to think so too. It's like if you have people like hand dyeing napkins in your algorithm, then you're just one half jump away from like butter churning. Do they really churn their own butter? They do, don't they?

[B]

Yes, they milk the cows by hand. They churn butter, they make chew cheese. I love when I go to visit my family, especially one of my brothers, there's always these gallons of cream. And before, they didn't have an actual butter churn. So they would just let the cream sit out for a little while until it's kind of not like warm. Warm but not cold. And then I would get there and I would just be shaking these chucks until the cream turned into butter.

[D]

Put you to work.

[A]

An extremely lactose tolerant population, the Amish.

[B]

I know right.

[D]

Now we are going to transition into rapid fire asking some listener submitted questions. We've got a ton of interesting ones. So we will humbly ask that you try to keep your answers brief so we can get through as many of these as we can. Also, you know, fair warning, there might be some presuppositions built into some of these questions. So if there are any that you're like, the premise of that is not something I agree with. Agree with. Feel free to vocalize that.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Do the Amish have a charismatic leader?

[B]

I don't know that is a charismatic leader. But they do have a bishop. And the bishop is an Amish male. They don't call him a charismatic leader. Like, with even the community where I grew up, there's so many people that they have more than one district within the same area. So each district it's preferable to have one bishop and then three. I think they're called deacons and English or preachers in Amish we call them. So each district they like to have their bishop with just the highest leader.

[A]

And how's the personality on that bishop? Do people love him?

[B]

Sometimes, but most of the time not so much. I mean, I don't think it's that they don't like him. They just. They have to be strict and make sure they're following the rules.

[A]

He's not trying to be a cool bishop. He's a regular bishop.

[B]

He's trying to make sure everybody stays in order at this point. Job.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So the vibe of the Amish is not this rousing, like Dionysian party. It's like, calm down, follow the rules.

[B]

Yes. It's like you're supposed to follow the rules and submit yourself to God and not ask too many questions.

[D]

You touched on this a little bit. But if you'd like to reiterate. Is rumspringa a real thing? When did it start and who started it?

[B]

Rumspringer is a real thing. I do not know when it started or who started it. I Just know that the lesson strict. For example, the church that my youngest sister is with, she doesn't have any kids that are old enough to do it yet, but her church does allow it. And once the kids are 16, they're allowed to go out into the world and experience it and live like that. And over 90% of them actually choose to go back at 18 and join the church. And they get married and they're Amish.

[A]

It's like the Amish version of a bachelor party. You, like, get to have one night out before your wedding to decide whether.

[B]

You really want to do right.

[A]

Someone asks, how do Amish communities interact with police or government regulation?

[B]

They try not to interact with the police, but sometimes they have to. And they call 911 and deal with what they have to deal with. But they try to handle things within the community. And as far as, like, government restrictions, they have some exemptions, for example, like how they pay taxes. They do pay taxes, but there's a form that exempts them from paying Social Security and a couple of other taxes. They don't receive benefits from the government, so they sign this form and it exempts them from Social Security and stuff like that. And for school, they're exempt from going to high school because of their religious beliefs, because they believe that after eighth grade, it's more practical for an Amish person to learn how to do the things that they need to be Amish. For example, like working on the farm. It can clothes, gardening, canning, and all of those things that the Amish do. Yeah.

[A]

These communities can really get away with so many things that maybe, like a psychologist wouldn't recommend because of freedom of religion.

[B]

Right.

[D]

A listener asks, are the Amish allowed to go to doctors slash hospitals if they get sick? Do they use any modern medicine?

[B]

They absolutely do, and it is allowed. They try to do home remedies, but if somebody needs to go to the hospital and they need medical care, they absolutely go to the hospital and receive medical care. Some are on blood pressure medications, some have diabetes, high cholesterol. In those instances, they do what they need to do to be okay.

[A]

But probably not abortions.

[B]

They're not supposed to get abortions. Absolutely not. I know of one case where an Amish teenager got pregnant and she did have an abortion, but that was very frowned upon. She didn't tell her parents, and she just went and got it done.

[D]

Do the Amish keep up with the news? What do they think of the rest the of of us?

[B]

You know, it's interesting how much the Amish know about the news. And I don't know if they really keep up with it, but they have so many interactions with the non Amish. They have English people that are kind of obsessed with them and they go there, they have friends and they do business with them. And these English people, I'm always surprised how much they know about the news and what's going on. And I think generally the Amish like the English people. They just don't want to live a bit little like that because of their beliefs and the way they are. I don't think that they dislike the English because they have businesses and without the English, it would be harder for them to survive financially because they sell a lot of things to the English.

[A]

They're a necessary evil. May.

[B]

Yes, perhaps.

[A]

Okay, Speaking of English people who are obsessed with the Amish, I think this.

[D]

Is great, especially in relation to. We were talking about breaking Amish earlier. Why are Christian evangelical moms so obsessed with the Amish?

[B]

I wish I knew, but I don't know why they're so obsessed about the Amish. It's fascinating to me.

[A]

It's gotta be the aesthetic.

[D]

It's like a Laura Ingalls Wilder nostalgia cottagecore fantasy. For sure.

[B]

It might be. I don't. I'm not sure.

[A]

Okay. On the flip side, another person asks, why are there so many romance novels featuring the Amish? Why are they sexy to us?

[B]

I've thought about this, and maybe it's because they wear these dresses and these clothes that cover them up and it's like this mysterious. How are they without all these clothes and stuff? I'm not sure.

[A]

They leave a lot to the imagination, the visibility thing.

[D]

That's.

[B]

Yeah, because of the comments I get sometimes. Like, people, they're like, oh, you're covering yourself up with that Amish dress. So maybe that's why there's so many romance novels. I don't know.

[D]

That's where Amish and stripper are really, like opposite ends of the spectrum of, like, how closed you get, right?

[A]

Totally. But I think it's very common eroticism for people to take an interest in, like people of the cloth, if you will, like hot priest, hot rabbi, hot Amish person. It's the juxtaposition of the purity.

[D]

Okay. How often do the Amish socialize with non Amish folk?

[B]

Some of them socialize with them or interact with them on a daily basis, except on Sundays because of their businesses. Every day English people came to our house to buy eggs or something and we had a sawmill, so we interacted with them Very often, yeah.

[A]

Amish people. I mean, I went on tours in Amish town all the time because I grew up in Maryland and it was right there.

[D]

So, yeah, we have, like, little grocery stores, which are not a thing in California. And the Amish grocery stores, I've had much fun exploring them here.

[B]

I went to one for the first time this summer when I was in Minnesota visiting my friend, and it was really cool. I was like, wow.

[D]

Somebody asks, does anyone convince convert to being Amish? How does this usually go?

[B]

So back in the day, it was more common for people to join the Amish. And in order to do that, they have to learn the language, they have to learn the ways of the Amish, and they have to become members of the Amish church. And I think it's more common for the less strict churches to accept them now because what would happen oftentimes is these people, the English would come and they would join the Amish, and after a while, they got tired of the rules, and then they would just end up leaving. So I know the strict church, like where I'm from in Michigan, they don't accept it anymore because they think that it's influencing the younger kids. Like, why can these people come and be Amish? And then they just leave? They don't want them to be a bad influence. So the strict church does not accept that anymore. But I have heard of less strict churches still accepting it.

[A]

The last question is. Question is, are Amish people happy?

[B]

Generally, Amish people, I think, are happy, Absolutely. I mean, I don't know that they're always happy because they're people like everybody else. But I feel like generally most of them are happy. Sure, there are some people that have anxiety and depression, and they actually get counseling. They try to get counseling through the church and stuff. And if that doesn't help, then they'll go to a doctor and they'll actually get on meds when needed for these issues. Issues.

[A]

I'm always curious about the correlation between happiness and freedom, because I think there's a certain level of baseline freedom that is required for happiness. But we also, on the show, talk a lot about chooser's paradox and how American society can feel really overwhelming with choices and opinions and paths to pursue and ideas to subscribe to. And that can almost feel like too much freedom. We do need structure and systems. And the Amish, definitely it's too much structure, I think, for my personal happiness. But clearly there are some people who thrive in that.

[B]

Right? And there's definitely some Amish people that I don't know that they're not happy, but they get fed up with some of the rules. And when that happens, for example, when the Swartzentruber Amish, sometimes there's a community, the sect, that they can't agree on some of the rules. Like, they just can't get the ordinal good and all agree on something, and then they will open it up everywhere. That's the time when somebody that's a member is free to walk out and join another church, and they won't get shunned from the sports and tuber Amish. And when that happens, some of them do walk away. So they're not always happy with that. And I think sometimes they feel stuck there until it opens up and they can freely leave. But I think generally they're so forgiving and accepting, and they realize this is a path that they chose, so they make the most of it and follow along doing what they're supposed to do to be Amish. And it's as sad as it may be to some, that's kind of how it is.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, Naomi, thank you so much for joining this conversation. It was so fascinating and illuminating. If people want to keep up with you and your journey, where can they do that?

[B]

They can find me on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram Amish Inspiration. Actually, I think on Facebook, I'm Naomi Swartzentruber. Now, I. I changed it over, or I'm in the process of it, but Naomi Swartzentruber or Amish Inspiration on TikTok and Instagram. Perfect.

[A]

All right, Rhys, out of them three cult categories, I'm talking live your life. I'm talking watch your back, and Lord knows I'm talking get the fuck out. Which cult category do you think the Amish fall into?

[D]

Mm. See, I do think I'm gonna say get the fuck out. And part of me feels weird saying that because it almost feels disrespectful of a culture that's existed for so long and, like, I should have some kind of reverence for them and, like, they're technically not hurting anyone, and they're happy.

[A]

I think they are hurting people. Naomi got slapped for not pronouncing her. Th's right. Not the interdental, voiceless, frickative.

[D]

No, And I think, like, the fact that she said she experienced no religious trauma, but then also said that she experienced, like, no sexual education, and that almost directly contributed to a pipeline of her being, like, in a very precarious sexual relationship almost immediately after escaping Like, I think not knowing about the world around you is always inherently dangerous and will be. Get the fuck out from me.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I think this is where charged labels like cult brainwashing rituals, trauma, start to maybe interrupt our understanding of, of what folks go through. Because a lot of what she described sounded like trauma. But maybe like the term religious trauma is just. It's not serving us.

[D]

Part of my point, I suppose, is that cults will abstract that train of thought from you.

[A]

Yeah, it sounds like the Amish is one of those communities where if you just so happen to fit the mold and be happy with the mold of what they want, want, then it's fine. But if you start to have even one disqualifying factor, like you're interested in exploring your sexuality, then it's not going to work for you anymore. And unfortunately, the consequences of that, whether it's like shunning or thinking you're going to go to hell or not being able to connect with your family as much, are, Are pretty grave. And I think a lot of things can be true at once with cults. Like, yeah, you can have like a happy nostalgic childhood, you know, eating bread soup. And you can feel deep, deep, deep in your bones from a very, very young age that like, you need to leave. And you can say that that was because you wanted a big adventure in the great wide somewhere. And probably deep down, maybe it's also because it was a fucked up place. So I don't know. I don't want to be more judgmental. Well, I don't want to be more judgmental than I want to be, but I have to respectfully call it again.

[D]

I'm kind of like, if you're already there, fine, I guess. But I don't think new people should be doing this.

[A]

Oh, yeah, no, like, for sure. Like, if you're, if you're cruising through your Amish life, then you're certainly not listening to this podcast. So I guess we're just shouting into the void. Maybe it's both to live your life and to get the fuck out.

[D]

One or the other.

[A]

I don't know how it's one or the other. It's don't. It's live your life, get the fuck out if you want to, and definitely don't get the fuck in. No, and don't get the fuck into anything that glamorizes a place that sure doesn't have iPhones, but also doesn't have sexual education or a dignified off ramp.

[D]

Not very godly okay, well, I loved this.

[A]

That's our show.

[D]

Thank you so much for listening.

[A]

Stick around for a new Cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty.

[D]

But I'm not too culty.

[A]

Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Soundslikeacultpod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult start managing your data, not your infrastructure. Unified, simple, secure, secure. Welcome to Data Done Right Only with the Pure Storage platform. Get [e-mail].