Alison Raskin (17:00)

Oh, it is an honor to be here.

Amanda Montell (17:02)

For those who are unfamiliar with your work, could you please introduce yourself and the journey that led you to write the book that you just came out.

Alison Raskin (17:10)

With, sure, if you were to look at a social media bio, it would say author, podcaster, mental health advocate, and relationship coach. But the longer story is I came up on the Internet. I went to school for screenwriting and really wanted to write TV and movies, but I took a class that was like, everything's gonna be on the Internet. And I was like, oh, okay. So, 2010, I started making content online, and I got lucky enough to work at BuzzFeed Video in 2014 and 2015, which really helped gain an audience and sort of launch my podcast and launch my YouTube channel just between us, with my co host, Gabe Dunn. From There, we wrote two YA books together, and the YouTube channel is now also a podcast by the same name. And as I continued to sort of sell TV shows that never got made and write movies and all of this stuff, I also started to do the second part of my career, which was really in the mental health and relationship space. And I went back to school and got a master's in psychology, and I wrote my first nonfiction book called Overthinking about you navigating romantic relationships when you have anxiety, OCD and Or depression. And then the catalyst for that book was me realizing that I was really showing up in relationships way different than I'd ever been able to before because I had a better handle on my mental health. And then I was like, what's next? Oh, my fiance walked out on me. Maybe I could write about marriage. And that's the abbreviated version where I'd finally gotten engaged, which was this huge goal of mine, only for him to really abruptly leave. And so it left me thinking, well, what is my relationship towards marriage now that I realize it's not this safe haven that I always thought that it was. It's this thing I've always craved and wanted. But how can I change my relationship towards it now that I know that it's so uncertain? How do I increase my chance for a successful marriage while also understanding that it might not last forever and sort of reframe my thoughts around divorce and marriage in general? And so that was the catalyst for, I do, I think, conversations about modern marriage, which I wrote while dating, getting engaged to, and marrying my now husband.

Amanda Montell (19:15)

Your career path makes perfect sense to me because I've been there the whole entire time, like from early Buzzfeed days and, like, the dawn of Just Between Us. So I'm like, ah, yes. The trajectory is just. It was written, it was faded.

Alison Raskin (19:28)

Oh, thank you.

Amanda Montell (19:30)

So, Alison, I want to pose to you the question that I open all of my magical overthinkers interviews with which is simply what is an irrational thought spiral that's been living rent free in your head lately?

Alison Raskin (19:42)

Oh, God, what isn't? I guess maybe that my new novel that's coming out in April won't do well, and that means that my whole career trajectory is. Is doomed because this is my biggest chance to take it to the next level in my career. And if that doesn't happen, then that will be the last chance.

Amanda Montell (20:03)

Oh, Alison, I am you and you are me.

Alison Raskin (20:08)

And then I'll have no one to blame but myself because it's a rom com novel and the romance audience is so voracious and incredible and supportive, and it's the best genre to sell in. So it's not like when nonfiction doesn't do well, I can be like, well, nonfiction is difficult. It'll be like, well, this was your fault. And also, I had a lot of early success. And so, like, my first book with Gabe did really well and was a New York Times bestseller for a week, but I guess to say it the rest of my life. And so my reference point for, like, a book doing well is completely and utterly skewed. And so then it's like, why isn't every book like that? And it's like, no, I was so unbelievably lucky. And it was just like a wonderful alignment of things and our fan base and that year and, you know, all those things. And so I have to, like, take myself back and be like, in the grand scheme of what it is to be able to, like, have my fifth book coming out in April and all of these things. Like, that's. That's good.

Amanda Montell (21:01)

So I relate to so much of your goal of wanting to at once do the marriage thing, but also deconstruct it and problematize it. And I have found personally that has actually been very difficult from a young age. I was pretty turned off by marriage culture, wedding culture, but at the same time, I love romance. I love festivity. But I always had this, like, hard to pin down, amorphous feeling of resentment for the conformity and consumerism and unquestioned ritual and implicit, but also explicit patriarchy and misogyny that exists in wedding culture. At the very same time, finding evidence for why I feel that way is really difficult because there are so many myths surrounding why the big western white dressed wedding is the way it is. So I was wondering if you could help myself and the listeners contextualize why the fuck wedding culture with the bridesmaids and the bouquets and the Pinterest boards and all the parties are supposed to throw in anticipation of the wedding and the walking down the aisle and the whatnot. Like, in a nutshell, could you summarize, like historically, how we got here?

Alison Raskin (22:22)

I will say I researched more marriage than weddings. And I think that that's actually a really big issue is that we tend to not separate the two when they are in fact totally different. But I think what's really led to the wedding culture of today is an issue that actually is an issue in marriage culture as well, which has become the ability to get married is now only really seen as available to people of a certain class. And part of that is because of how expensive weddings are. In the past, people would get married as their first step of adulthood. And so that meant, hey, we're like 220 somethings. We don't have anything to our name. We're going to build our financial wealth and future together. We'll run down to the courthouse and we'll do this or it'll be a family. But you know, there were always big weddings, obviously, but it wasn't an expected level of pageantry because you're getting married young and you're not expected to have that much wealth because everyone's doing it. And then over time it really became that. Now people tend to get married when they feel like they are financially stable. And so that has really pushed back when people get married. It's pushed back the age of when people get married. And also it means there's this level of a lot of people feeling like they can't get married because they can't afford that big wedding culties.

Amanda Montell (23:39)

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Alison Raskin (26:09)

And so it's been really tangled together in this way where I actually think that for certain people who want a certain lifestyle, marriage is a wonderful route. And it really upsets me that so many people feel like they're not marriageable because they can't afford a big wedding, when those two things actually have nothing to do with each other. Obviously, some of the traditions are heavily rooted in patriarchy, the idea of passing the bride off from the father to the groom, and now she belongs to you. It's hard to remove the patriarchal nature of that. But I'm also Jewish and so in Judaism a lot of times both parents will walk you down the aisle rather than just the father. And something I did in my wedding and the way I thought about it was to me, it was that my parents helped get me to the place where I was mentally well and safe and aware enough to get married. And so they like took me that final Step to the altar and then I enter my partnership with my husband rather than me being an object that is past. So there's ways to sort of like reimagine and refigure these, like go to traditions to make them sit better with you and the type of marriage that you want.

Amanda Montell (27:18)

I love that. I also went to a Quaker wedding once where the bride and groom walked towards each other from like either side of the altar. And I really liked that. And my brother isn't Quaker, but he and his wife ended up doing that at their wedding. And it was really beautiful. It was like such a simple tweak, but it was somehow felt like really radical. So let's return to this very important subject that you brought up, which is the conflation of wedding culture with marriage. This is something that unfortunately, I feel like I really internalized from a young age and it prevented me from getting engaged sooner. I thought because wedding culture really wants to put you on this conveyor belt, then that means that marriage is not worthwhile and marriage is a prison and you can't make it what you want to make it, because it's so fucking hard to make a wedding what you want to make it. People are scandalized that I'm not going to be wearing white to my wedding. People are scandalized that I, a CIS woman proposed to my CIS male partner and that was like, totally right for us. It was not a stunt. That's how it needed to happen. And so I was wondering if you could sort of disentangle the monstrosity that is wedding culture from, like what marriage can mean in 2025.

Alison Raskin (28:45)

Absolutely. So a wedding is a one day celebration that is often about community and getting together for a good reason. I think a lot of times people find that they're only really getting together in these large groups if there's a funeral. And so a wedding is sort of a counterbalance to that where it's like a celebration of life and partnership and future. And so depending on what your relationships and family and social support looks like, it can be helpful to realize that sometimes the wedding is about the other people in your life too, getting the chance to celebrate you. There's also the version where it's just the two of you in a courthouse or you have a very specific vision and therefore other people's input is not important to you. But, like, there's all these different ways you can do it, but marriage is the thing that happens after and it's the thing that is the reason why you do it ideally. And I find what's so exciting about being in the year 2025. And maybe one of the only things that's exciting about being in the year 2025 is the possibility of what modern marriage can be. And this is what I really loved exploring in the book is that these old structures of what we thought marriage was, which was very heterosexual, very gender based, very confining, is something that we no longer have to abide by. So sort of my central thesis in all of it is that instead of trying to fit yourself into an established institution, you and your spouse are creating the type of marriage that you want for yourself. And there is a lot more flexibility in that than we think that there is. And that can range from how you handle your finances. It can range from where you sleep, if you want to share a bed or not. It can range from if you're going to have kids, not have kids, what your expectations are for your sexual life together. You know, some people have open marriages, some people are polyamorous while married. It doesn't need to be as strict as we've often been told that it needs to be. And also it doesn't need to be forever. And I think that that's something that's really helpful for our generations, especially with how many boomers got divorced, is the idea that getting divorced today doesn't have to ruin your life in the way that it's ruined other generations lives. And I don't mean it's not hard to get divorced. It's incredibly painful, expensive, difficult to get divorced, but it doesn't need to have the same social stigma attached to it. So one of my real ways that I've rethought the whole thing is I used to be like, well, successful marriages are when they last until one person dies. And now I really think that there can be successful marriages that last for a period of time in your life. Maybe you guys really enjoy raising your kids together, and once you're empty nesters, things have changed and it doesn't make sense to stay together anymore. That to me doesn't mean that you failed at marriage. It just means that you entered a stage where marriage wasn't additive anymore and so you decided to separate.

Amanda Montell (31:40)

Yeah, I almost think there's some kind of American dream coded resistance to the idea that something could change in a way that violates a traditional standard of success that prevents people from acknowledging that divorce is possible. And thus they just go like full send into their marriage. And I wonder if that, for lack of a better word, like toxic optimism, prevents us from, like, reimagining the structure of marriage. Like, for example, I have a friend who I think is pretty, like, resistant to marriage in general, who said that she thought it was a better idea to introduce a system where, like, when you get married, you can sign up for a certain time period that you'd like to say married, and you can sign up for, like, increments of seven years. It's like a contract, you know, it's like a business.

Alison Raskin (32:31)

Yeah. Marriage is a business deal. And I would say that if your friend found someone that wanted to do that too, then why not do it? That's the thing is, like, we have to start thinking sort of more creatively and expansively about what this can look like. And I actually think that speaking to the audience of overthinkers, one of the ways that marriage can become so much less scary is by knowing you can get divorced. And it doesn't mean that you're entering into marriage with the intention of getting divorced, but it eliminates the possibility that you will find yourself trapped in a situation that you don't want to be in.

Amanda Montell (33:02)

Yeah. Like, acknowledging that it is a possibility one day from the start with your partner, and if they're not down to acknowledge reality or to come up with a. A plan for navigating hardships or a goal. It's like, how long do you really envision staying married? The rest of our lives. How are we gonna make that fucking work?

Alison Raskin (33:21)

Right? I think one of the questions you really need to ask someone before you marry them is in what circumstances would you be willing to get divorced? Because if their answer is under no circumstances, then that's really difficult. And it's tying you to expectations that your relationship won't change, or that the two of you won't change in some way, or there won't be some external stressors that will change your context. And I think it's really important to find if you're going to enter into this legal union with someone, to look for someone that understands that life is complicated.

Amanda Montell (33:54)

Okay. So the fact that it is so hard to really, really make your wedding personal and to use it to buck tradition, for me, that's made it really hard to envision a marriage that bucks tradition, that doesn't in some way resemble the 1950s style marriage.

Alison Raskin (34:14)

We did so many weird things at.

Amanda Montell (34:15)

Our wedding, so I want to know what they are. Because the more I hear about people doing weird things with their engagement, their wedding, that whole process, it gives me hope for ensuring that I can do weird things with my Marriage itself.

Alison Raskin (34:31)

Oh, absolutely. I mean, what we really wanted to prioritize was that people were laughing. Humor is the cornerstone of our relationship and my life. And that was like so crucial to us. So we asked one of our best friends, who I met through John, who's a comedy writer and a sketch performer, to officiate us. And I gave him no rules. I said, just be funny. And the one rule he had was he couldn't make fun of himself because he tends to be self deprecating. And I was like, we're positive vibes here, man. And he was like, are you sure? And I was like, jc, just make it funny. And he crushed it.

Amanda Montell (35:10)

Okay. I love this, Alison, because it's unserious. And this is the thing that has creeped me out about a lot of the weddings that I've attended is that everybody's just trying to live up to this almost royal wedding vibe. And they do that sometimes at the expense of their actual personalities. And it feels so formal and forced sometimes. And I'm just like, why are we doing this? Like, can't we just make this a little sillier and like depressurized?

Alison Raskin (35:37)

Oh, definitely.

Amanda Montell (35:38)

And here's the thing though. Casey and I, we are trying. It started with I was gonna propose. So already that's pretty non traditional.

Alison Raskin (35:46)

He knew you were going to?

Amanda Montell (35:48)

No. It was a shock and a surprise.

Alison Raskin (35:50)

Oh, okay.

Amanda Montell (35:51)

But he loved it. Like I knew it was right and it was. And then I knew that I wasn't gonna wear white. And then I was like, I'm not doing any of this wedding stuff. We're gonna get married in my parents backyard and we're just gonna like throw a party and that's gonna simpler. Alison. Wrong. Throwing a wedding or a wedding esque event in my parents backyard, it is more complicated and expensive than it would have been had we gone with like a traditional venue. You just get put on this conveyor belt where like, oh, well, if you're going to do this thing, then you've got to have a sit down dinner. And if we're doing a ceremony, well, I don't want it to be cringe, I want it to be gorgeous. So like, yep, we're hiring a harpist. Yup. We're hiring a close up magician so people aren't bored during the cocktail hour. And now we're like, wait a second, this is a monstrosity.

Alison Raskin (36:40)

Well, so first of all, I'm obsessed with you having a magician. I'm a huge fan of magic and have a lot of opinions about it. What I would argue is, why aren't you leaning into this? If you're going to have a wedding and you've chosen that that's the thing that you want to do, and you've looked into yourself and you've decided that you do want it to look beautiful and you do want it to be a certain way, why not just think about how awesome it is that you're getting to throw yourself a big party? Because maybe your truth is that you do want it to look beautiful and there's nothing wrong with that.

Amanda Montell (37:09)

I do. Like, as we were saying before, like, I'm obsessed with extravaganza.

Alison Raskin (37:15)

I think you have some feelings around. You shouldn't be, quote, unquote, that type of bride. And that's really just hurting you for no reason. Because ultimately you just want to have a good, fun, beautiful day and that's okay. That's like totally fine to want. Now, if it was going to put you into financial ruin and you could not afford this and you were taking out loans and it was like really going to be this huge thing that would have long term consequences, then I would say, okay, Amanda, maybe we don't need the harpist and we'll keep the magician. But what. Maybe we can, you know, but if, if it's something that you're able to do within reason without it having long term negative impacts, then like, lean into it.

Amanda Montell (37:55)

It's.

Alison Raskin (37:56)

It's a wonderful thing to get to throw a party for yourself.

Amanda Montell (37:59)

Yeah. So I guess maybe I'm just embarrassed about that because here's the thing. I don't get embarrassed about over the top book events because I feel like I earned it. But I'm like, I don't want people to perceive this event as me thinking that becoming a bride is an achievement. I don't want people to think that about me.

Alison Raskin (38:21)

I think getting married is an achievement.

Amanda Montell (38:23)

That, like, I was likable enough to convince someone to marry me.

Alison Raskin (38:25)

No, that you have built and cultivated a beautiful relationship with someone who wants to be your life partner. I don't think that it's the most important achievement in the world. And I don't think that it overshadows your career accomplishments or that it's the right choice for everyone. But this idea that it isn't a wonderful thing to have done, to have found a person that you feel compatible enough with, that you are invested enough with, and that you want to build this life together, that's something to be really proud of.

Amanda Montell (38:53)

No, you're totally right. I don't know Why I feel so much like self judgment about the whole thing when, like, the truth of the matter is Casey and I are soulmates.

Alison Raskin (39:04)

Sorry, I don't believe in those, but I know that a lot of people do.

Amanda Montell (39:07)

Me neither. No, neither do I. I'm using that turn of phrase as, like, shorthand. Like, we've known each other since we were 12 years old. We met in community theater. We reconnected as adults. Like, we are still like children together. We are, I feel like a grounding force as a partnership in our community. And our partnership is very special, I think. And I do want to celebrate that. And I do want to celebrate it in a fucking pull out all the stops kind of way. But I feel embarrassed about that. And that's just something that I'm gonna need to like, unpack more.

Alison Raskin (39:40)

I think so. Because I think it's really doing you a disservice because this is the thing. Everyone is different. So there are some people that are like, I don't want to plan a wedding because I don't even want to go to this type of wedding. Extravaganzas are not fun for them. It's not something that they like. But that's not you. Like, you love a big party. You love a show. Like, as an entertainer too, like, I was very excited about the idea of like, entertaining my guests and them, like, having a great time. Toast the holidays in a new way and raise a glass of rumchata, a delicious creamy blend of horchata with. With rum. Enjoy it over ice or in your coffee. Rumchata.

Amanda Montell (40:20)

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Alison Raskin (40:31)

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Amanda Montell (40:34)

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Alison Raskin (42:02)

Like at my wedding, when you sat down, there was an ability to participate in a survey about the wedding. So it was like a barcode that you could do on your phone and then it took you to like a Google thing and you like would fill out. It was like, whose vows did you prefer? And do you think there's like enough animals involved in the ceremony? It was just so us and like, because I always am giving surveys and so I was like, this is just an opportunity to sort of like heighten and lean into all of like my strange interests and quirks and his and like our silliness and just sort of put it on display for everyone to get to enjoy it rather than judging myself for wanting that attention. I'm a fudgeing ham. I love attention.

Amanda Montell (42:42)

Yeah, no, same. And honestly, like, to go back to the engagement story, one of my best friends suggested the germ of the idea that ended up being the way that I proposed to Casey. And that germ of an idea is what opened up the whole vision for like our whole marriage. For me, I was like, oh, this is like the glitch in tradition that I really needed permission to see in order to envisage the whole life and the whole thing the way that it felt right for me and for us.

Alison Raskin (43:17)

I would love to know your readings and why that was right for you. Because I think it's so important for people to hear different stories than what they're used to.

Amanda Montell (43:23)

So this is a long story that I'll condense. But basically, like, Vox Media makes these really charming, well produced science explainer videos. They're delightful and Casey and I love to learn together in like whimsical ways. That's something we share. And his favorite thing in the world is Vox explained that series of videos and so over the course of months, with the help of, like, actor friends, director friends, producer friends, I made a fake VOX explained video that was presented as real, called the most scientifically accurate portrayal of forever. That evolved into, like, a surprise proposal.

Alison Raskin (43:57)

Oh, my God.

Amanda Montell (43:59)

He was shocked. He didn't expect it at all. He knew how resistant I was to bridal culture and whatever. And so he was just like, whatever you want, you know, kind of thing, like, as long as we're together. But he cried. He loved it. Like, it was perfect. It was exactly us. And that's what made me feel like, okay, the rest of the marriage could feel like us, if this part can. So that's that kind of story. And, like, I did not feel like I missed out on anything because I was the one that proposed. It taught me a lot. I was so nervous throughout the whole thing. I was like, ugh, no wonder men handle this part, because they have, like, a lifetime of practice of, like, like, remaining calm, not expressing their emotions, you know, because I want to, like, shit my pants. I was so nervous about proposing. But anyway, I feel you simpatico about the customization aspect.

Alison Raskin (44:50)

Let me ask, what scares you about being married to Casey?

Amanda Montell (44:54)

Nothing.

Alison Raskin (44:54)

Okay. Because that's how you have to think about it. It's not just, like, marriage, it's marriage to Casey. And I think that that's a really helpful thing to add on, because so much of our ideas around marriage are influenced by the people in our lives. If you grew up with parents who didn't have the best marriage or you didn't have any good examples of relationships as you were growing up, then you don't really have a point of reference for it. And so that term can be so charged, and it can have a lot of negative connotations. But if you find someone where you're like, oh, this dynamic with this person, I like then always thinking of it as marriage with blank, life partnership with blank. And you know that that's going to be different than what you've seen because of who they are. A lot of my book is, like, the conversations you should be having before you get married or once you're married. And I think it's a really helpful exercise to say, whose marriages would we like to replicate or what aspects would we like to replicate? And what aspects of people's marriages that we've seen and been exposed to would we not want to replicate? And what are we going to do to make sure that that happens?

Amanda Montell (45:56)

That is so helpful. And this is why this is a podcast for overthinkers because like, like the only marriage I have to worry about is my own. And the marriage to Casey does not scare me at all. Marriage, capital M as a concept, I don't like, but the only thing I actually have to worry about doesn't scare me. So I need to remind myself of that.

Alison Raskin (46:17)

Always say marriage with Casey in your head.

Amanda Montell (46:19)

Yes, thank you for that. I would like now to transition to relaying some thought spirals about weddings and marriage that were submitted by our listeners. I'm going to read each thought spiral or like overthinky question to you and then just get your gut reaction. Or if you have a story that comes to mind in response to it, feel free to share. So these first couple thought spirals have to do with weddings and family. And the first question goes, when your parents want to invite people to your wedding but you don't know them, what do you do?

Alison Raskin (46:58)

My thoughts on this are pretty practical. And it's who's paying for the wedding? So if you are paying for the wedding, then you do not need to invite these people. If they're paying for the wedding, then I think that it can help to shift into that this is a family event. And cutting back to what I was saying, sort of about community, it also depends on your relationship with your parents. If you have a good relationship with them and they're people that can hear you, I think it's always worth making the explanation of why you don't want these people there. But if they're paying for the wedding and they are not receiving receptive people, then it can be helpful to just think of it as this is a family occasion and I don't need to spend my time at my wedding with those people. So take away the expectation that like, you're gonna have to hang out with them, they'll just be there. Okay. But you can focus on your people and the people you're excited to see.

Amanda Montell (47:47)

Perfect. Next question is similar. It says, could you talk about the pressure to invite family who you don't want there just because they're family?

Alison Raskin (47:57)

This is very tricky. And again, this is why sometimes having non traditional weddings is helpful. Right? So if you have a really small wedding, then it's easier to get away with not inviting certain people. Again, I think some of it comes back to who's paying. If you are paying, I don't think you need to invite anyone that you don't want to invite. And sometimes that's a decision that might have to be made in certain family dynamics that you know that if There is money attached that your parents or in laws will want more input. And so that's why sometimes it can be helpful to say, act, actually, we're gonna have a much smaller, cheaper wedding because I wanna be in control of what happens during that wedding. And then it's like, what's more important to me that it's with the people I want there or that it maybe has a larger budget? And that's a question I can't answer for you. But it's a way to sort of, like, parse through what your priorities are.

Amanda Montell (48:43)

That's such good advice. The next question goes, bridesmaid etiquette. Do they have to be one if I was theirs.

Alison Raskin (48:51)

This really comes down to your relationship on an individual level with each of these people and how much you think being a bridesmaids means to them. I think that if you know that this person really cares and cherishes your friendship and thinks about you and you're important to them, but maybe you don't feel as connected because you've friends since kids, but you know that you mean more to them than they mean to you. I think that it can be really nice to still invite them to be a bridesmaid, because life is hard. Friendships take all different forms. There's some friends that are there for our big moments, even if they're not the people that we talk to every single day. And there's something beautiful in giving them that opportunity. If it is more like, this is just this girl who had 16 bridesmaids, and I happen to be one of them, and I know I'm not that important to her, then I don't think that you need to do that. I think it's such an individual thing to really think about and to think about the impact them not being a bridesmaid would have on their internal and emotional world. And if that. That feels like something you're comfortable with.

Amanda Montell (49:50)

Yeah, thank you for that. Another thing, I don't know if this resonates, but another option is just not to do that part.

Alison Raskin (49:56)

Right. You don't need to have bridesmaids or you can keep it to a certain set of people. Right. So it's like, it's just family or it's just my friends from college. So that way you can have some, but you don't have the issue of expanding it to, like, everyone you know.

Amanda Montell (50:09)

No, you're totally right. Okay. These next few questions and thought spirals have to do with bridal culture and expectations.

Alison Raskin (50:16)

Okay.

Amanda Montell (50:16)

Someone asks, at what point do you go from asserting Boundaries to. And I hope we can unpack this word Bridezilla.

Alison Raskin (50:25)

This is tough. Everyone's personality is different. I mean, it's always like, what's the cost benefit? There are things that you cave on because you know that they really matter, the people that you care about. Or there's stuff where you just know that it's not going to be perfect because nothing is perfect. So I think that really getting out of a mentality of like, it's got to be this way or everything is really ruined. That mentality leads you down the Bridezilla path versus how do I try to achieve my goal here? But if there's so much issues getting that done, or there's so much conflict or there's so much resistance, then maybe I can be a little more flexible here and, like, with the idea that not everything is ever going to be perfect the way you want on a wedding. It's just impossible. My wedding was the day of the hurricane that hadn't happened in Southern California in 100 years. And then we also had a earthquake.

Amanda Montell (51:15)

Yeah, and I love that advice because it's more for your peace of mind and not how you seem. Because I have such resentment for this phrase Bridezilla. You can't win. You know, society pressures you into throwing this obscenely expensive event that's framed as, like, the most important day of your complex, wild, and precious life. And I know, I personally feel like I am having to walk this. This tightrope between, like, living up to people's expectations for a wedding and a bride, but also subverting them without appearing controlling.

Alison Raskin (51:53)

See, I wouldn't focus on people's expectations. I would focus on what do you think is a great time.

Amanda Montell (51:59)

Right. But then even if I look at it through that lens, if I start getting specific, people are so quick to say, bridezilla.

Alison Raskin (52:08)

Who is saying this to you?

Amanda Montell (52:09)

Who are you surrounded by? I don't know. I think people are saying it as a joke and I'm taking it to heart. I don't know. I'm trying to, like, really make the whole thing my own. And in my mind, that's like anti Bridezilla. We were like, oh, it's good. You know, like, I'm just like, I don't want to have a post wedding brunch. Like, that seems overkill. Everybody's gonna be hungover and tired. I don't want to have that. I'm putting my foot down. The answer is no. And my family's like, okay. Bridezilla's got like, okay, well, so then.

Alison Raskin (52:37)

It'S really just that you have to just trust your gut on some of this stuff and it's okay to have opinions and they can interpret that how they see fit. But like I feel like a Bridezilla happens if we agree it's a thing when there's a lack of emotional regulation over what's happening and that causes you to treat the people around you without kindness. But like having a strong opinion and saying, I don't want to do that because that doesn't make sense to me and it's not how I want to spend the day after my wedding. And I hope that you, you can appreciate and understand that and you do that in a respectful way. Like that's just you having an opinion and that's okay. It's when you're treating other people cruelly because you're prioritizing your wedding over their feelings and over what is attainable and over what is possible. Like making someone wear something that they really don't feel comfortable wearing because like of their gender identity or their body type or any of those things and it's like, but it's my wedding. See you better. Like that is very different. Then I don't want to have a brunch and therefore we shall not.

Amanda Montell (53:40)

Amanda from the future Here I wanted to reference a precise quote from one of the articles I mentioned in the intro of this episode that specifically problematizes the term bridezilla. It's from the article Traditional Inequalities and Inequalities of Tradition, Gender, Weddings and Whiteness. The article says that the term bridezilla was first used by Diane White in a Boston Globe article. It's a portmanteau of Bride and Godzilla and it describes a sort of out of control woman, AKA overly emotional, oppressively organized quote, the monstrous version of the demure fictional bride walking the tightrope of emotion and reason characterized in vast media depictions of virginal, hyper feminized brides. This article says while a bridezilla could be seen as representing strong female independence, power and agency, the term is not one of empowerment, but rather inspires negative judgment seeking to discipline women. After all, there's no groomzilla. This paragraph sums it perfectly. It is wedding culture through wedding media that both produces the ideal bridal identity and its monstrous double, the Bridezilla. The Bridezilla is therefore a threat to male power in her deviance and strength, both defying and reinforcing sexist notions of femininity, brides are allowed control over whether weddings because of their unique positioning the bridal identity is temporary and remains within the realm of home or domesticity, because that's what a wedding is. Thus, the bridezilla is allowed to emerge ultimately because she has a limited and transitory power. Once the problematic bridezilla and bridal identity is resolved through the wedding, meaning once the wedding is over, kid, you're out. The bride must rejoin the still patriarchal world where she returns to the secondary station status. Her gender still holds. Rightzilla women are tamed through domestication and wedding consumption. I just really felt the need to include that tidbit in here. Okay, back to the interview. Someone asks, do I want a wedding or just a pretty dress, ring and photos.

Alison Raskin (55:41)

That's fine. Why can't you do that? That's the thing is you're allowed to have whatever it is that's important to you. So if what you really want is to have an awesome dress and a beautiful ring and get some great photos at a courthouse, that's a wonderful thing to know about yourself. I mean, the issue would be if the question was, do I really want a marriage or do I just want a ring and a dress and photos? That's, I'd say not good. But do I really want a wedding? Then that's great. Just do that version of a wedding.

Amanda Montell (56:04)

That's that conflation again. And that is so important. The wedding is not the marriage. The wedding is a. So a different thing. Okay. Someone asks, I'm planning a wedding with OCD and I don't know where to begin.

Alison Raskin (56:17)

So it's hard, right? Because OCD is so different and it manifests completely differently in everyone. So I don't know what part of it is an issue for you. And it might be maybe more like the just right OCD or like feeling like it has to be done perfectly or fear of letting people down. I don't know what theme you're dealing with that is sort of causing some issues there. But what I would recommend and I. What I would recommend to everyone is to. To lead with the joy and to lead with the things that are most important to you. So for me, I really wanted there to be good food and great dancing and so instead of having expectations around everything, figuring out what is most important for me and how can I achieve those goals. And also take help if planning a wedding is overwhelming to you due to mental health reasons or just that that's not how your brain likes to operate. Allow people to help you. Allow your parents, if they're alive and willing to help you, if you have a good relationship with them. You know, allow a friend or a sibling to help plan. Like, it's unlikely that there's no one in your life that doesn't really like this stuff. And so it's like, okay to lean on them to sort of, like, help you get through the hurdles that your anxiety might be making it too hard to even start with.

Amanda Montell (57:25)

That's such a good reminder. I struggle with asking people for help because it is hard, but some of.

Alison Raskin (57:32)

Us love it and they want to help you. Don't ask your friend who hates weddings and can't plan a goddamn thing, but you probably have a friend who, like, loves weddings and loves to organize every trip. Trip you take.

Amanda Montell (57:42)

Yeah, I sure do. Yeah. Okay. Just a couple more questions. These have to do with the cost. Someone says, I recently found out how much weddings cost, and omfg, I am spiraling. It seems unjustifiable.

Alison Raskin (57:56)

Don't have a big wedding. You just simply don't need to do that. If. If you don't want to spend that money, then you don't need to. And if you would rather save that for a house or for your future or invest it in the stock market, that's totally fine. So it's really, again, just, like, reimagining what the wedding means to you and that you can do it in much cheaper, less flashy ways, and that's okay. Yeah.

Amanda Montell (58:19)

I think this is why I keep calling our wedding other things, because I can totally justify spending on a Halloween party, but not a wedding.

Alison Raskin (58:30)

But you're someone that does value big celebrations, so it does align with your. About. You love to throw a party.

Amanda Montell (58:36)

I love to throw a party. And I love to mark a moment.

Alison Raskin (58:40)

Exactly. And you have joy in that. Like, you love the memories of your Halloween parties. You love the memories of your book tours. Like, those are things that, you know, you cherish. And so why wouldn't you want it for this big moment, too? Yeah.

Amanda Montell (58:53)

And to the point that you made earlier. Like, one of the reasons why I love all those things is because I love to see the looks on people's faces when they're, like, going through the immersive experience of just, like, I put.

Alison Raskin (59:04)

This together for you. Exactly. It's to bring your family and loved ones joy. My mom's friend was like, that was the funniest wedding I've ever been to. I was like, I've accomplished all of my goals. You want to deliver that for the people you care about.

Amanda Montell (59:17)

The other question that I'll relay about the price stuff is how Is it legal for vendors to charge more for an event just because it's a wedding?

Alison Raskin (59:26)

Because we live in a capitalistic hellscape. There's no rules about so many things. And a thing you could do is lie. If you do like a less traditional wedding, then you don't necessarily need to tell people that it's for a wedding. And that might help.

Amanda Montell (59:38)

Yeah, we're planning to lie. A good little lie here and there to, you know, resist capitalistic hellscape. It's fine. Alison, thank you so much for this conversation. I value it more than I can say. My final question for you is, what do you think is the number one thing people are overthinking with respect to weddings? And what is the number one thing you think people are underthinking?

Alison Raskin (60:04)

Okay, underthinking for me is what they want the day to be like for themselves and like, what would be the most fun day for them. Rather than everyone feeling like they pleased all these other people and they met these societal expectations and they did, like, what could be just the most lovely, fun day for them and then for overthinking. I think the idea that it has to be perfect or it will be a disaster. If something goes wrong, then, oh no. But something will go wrong. I had to get dressed for my wedding in the bathroom at the venue because it was raining outside and I couldn't get dressed in my bridal suite. I literally was like standing in the bathroom with my mother and my sister and my two nieces and my little nieces had their arms out being like, like, here you go. And having lost my mom in September, I'm just like so thankful for that weird memory, which is only because something went wrong.

Amanda Montell (60:59)

That's such a good reminder. Thank you so much. Again. If folks want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that?

Alison Raskin (61:05)

Oh, all over the place. My book, I do I think Conversations about Modern Marriage is out now. My novel that I'm spiraling about is also about weddings and marriage and it's called called Save the Date, which is available for pre order now. It's a rom com based on my own broken engagement and hypothetical situation that could have happened, but didn't. Thank God. But was a good idea for a book. I'm also available as a relationship coach. I work with individuals and couples and you can find more information about that on AllisonRaskin.com Amazing.

Amanda Montell (61:37)

I feel coached right now.

Alison Raskin (61:39)

Thank you.

Amanda Montell (61:43)

And thank you listeners so much for tuning in. Now's the point in the episode where I share A tidbit of evidence based advice for how we overthinkers can get out of our own heads this week. This one comes from psychologist Dr. Guy Winch, who authored a book called Emotional first aid. In a Buzzfeed piece by Dr. Ryan Howes titled How to Stop Overthinking Everything according to therapists, Winch said that when you catch yourself in a ruminative spiral, a two to three minute distraction such as a puzzle memory task, anything that requires concentration can be enough to break the compelling pull of the ruminative thought. If we use distraction each time we have a thought, the frequency with which it appears in our mind will diminish, as will its intensity. I'm not really a puzzle person, but I wanted to share the recall exercise that tends to help me, especially if I'm struggling, struggling to fall asleep because my brain is spinning. I've been talking about Casey a little bit throughout this episode. This is kind of like a window into our life when the both of us are struggling with a touch of anxiety motivated insomnia. We do this thing called the Alphabet game where lying in bed will pick a category as something as simple as names or as complicated as things you'd find in a fantasy novel. And we go down the Alphabet and alternate coming up with an answer for that category for each letter. So if the category is names and I'm going first, I might say Amanda and then he would do B and he would say Brandon and then it would be my turn. And for C I might say Casey. That's a really simple category and this seems like such a silly basic exercise, but I tell you, we fall asleep before we get to queue almost every single night. And it works in waking hours too. So with that, thank you so much again for listening. And until the next thought spiral, remember, think it over. Just don't overthink it. Okay? Now I know what you just heard was technically a magical overthinkers episode, but I hope hope you think it was as pertinent to the sounds like a cult thesis as I found it to be. Now out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. I am quite convinced that weddings are a watch your back. I believe that's the conclusion I came to last time. Although admittedly I don't remember. I will say it was was freakishly challenging. More challenging than it really felt like it needed to be to skirt around the overpriced, borderline manipulative. Weirdly delivery aside wedding industry in order to throw an event that my now husband Casey and I found to be really personal to us and magical and fun and all the things we did. Our own flowers, they were $200. I wore pink. Check it out on my instagram. It wasn't a wedding dress so it was cheaper and it was just like a gorgeous personal music filled magic filled literally. We did have a magician day and I wouldn't take it back for the world but I did low key the whole time feel like I was being sold a timeshare or pressured into signing up to be a freaking MLM Mary Kay recruit. Not ideal. So watch your back if you ever intend to get married. And I know having a boyfriend is cringe now and marital rates are on the decline literally pop off. But I also think connection is important and human beings are meant to do life together and our spouse can't be everything to us. But it is lovely knowing that no matter what happens, I do have this person to return to as my bestie in my support system and my makeout buddy. And so without getting too corny, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new Cult next week. We got a tradition additional Sounds Like a Cult episode coming back at ya. And in the meantime, stay culty but not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pie Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it 5 stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, the Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality and Word A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71 and be sure to follow the Follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse. Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com soundslikeacult.

Alison Raskin (67:00)

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