2025 Favorites: How to Flip NO's into a YES, Customer Retention, and TiktTok Tactics

Summary

Special Ops with Emma Rainville

Episode: 2025 Favorites – How to Flip NO's into a YES, Customer Retention, and TikTok Tactics

Date: December 30, 2025
Host: Emma Rainville

---

Overview

In this energetic, strategy-packed episode, Emma Rainville brings together expert guests to dissect three critical levers for business growth in 2025: overcoming objections in sales (turning “NO” into “YES”), next-level customer retention (with a focus on subscriptions and masterminds), and practical TikTok strategies for monetization. Throughout, listeners get tactical, actionable advice, real stories, and behind-the-scenes mindsets from successful marketers, copywriters, and coaches.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Flipping NO’s into YES: Copywriting & Persuasion Tactics

[00:00–06:35]

• Consistency and Multi-Angled Messaging

  • Crafting messages tailored to diverse customer avatars and their unique emotions is key. Like a “nine-sided die,” your product needs to be shown from all relevant perspectives.
  • “A lot of what turns the no to the yes is over time, consistency, showing multiple sides of the product…”
    — Copywriting Expert [00:00]

• Storytelling as a Conversion Tool

  • Use multiple narrative “oil wells.” Drill into different stories that resonate with each customer type.
  • “There’s likely five to six stories revolving around your customer avatar. Find the oil in multiple areas.”
    — Copywriting Expert [00:50]
  • Use AI to create persona-specific diary entries to mine for stories and objections.

• Preemptive Objection Handling

  • Logically address objections before the customer consciously raises them, like building a legal case in your ad or VSL.
  • “When you study sales guys, you realize there’s only so many objections… I bang out those different [objections]...”
    — Copywriting Expert [01:32]

• Emotional Motivation & the “Want ___” Formula

  • Identify your target audience’s prevailing emotion (e.g., fear) and sell the inverse state (e.g., peace).
  • “If your audience is in a state of fear, then you need to sell peace. Just start the ad with ‘Want [blank]?’ and test all the different motives.”
    — Copywriting Expert [03:05]

• Preparation Makes Execution Fast

  • Like a pro chef (Rachel Ray analogy), copywriting is infinitely faster if you prepare ingredients (customer insights, competitor research) ahead of time.
  • “It’s like trying to cook a meal when you don’t have all the ingredients organized versus when you have everything portioned out… takes so much less time.”
    — Host & Copywriting Expert [04:52–05:11]

• Classic Formulas Work—Preparation Is the Secret

  • AIDA, PAS, STAR—formula matters less than message relevance and data prep.

2. Micro Commitments: Priming the YES

[06:35–11:49]

• On-boarding with Micro Commitments

  • Small “yes” responses stack up to a big YES.
    Example: “Right, you’re saying it’s so frustrating to lose weight. Right.” (Audience nods internally.)
  • “Within the first couple minutes I want to... 10 micro commitments… in my webinar.”
    — Copywriting Expert [07:19]

• Open Loops and Desired Outcomes

  • Promise results (“By the end of this, you’ll know X”) creates commitment to stay and engage.

• “Does That Make Sense?”—Soft Validation

  • Phrasing—“Makes sense”—invites subtle agreement and connection with listeners.

• Punch & Comfort—The Ron Lynch Principle

  • “You can’t just punch them in the head 15 times… You have to put an ice pack on, tell them they’re a good boy and you love them, then move on.”
    — Copywriting Expert [10:39]
  • Alternate between highlighting the pain and assuring a solution to keep people receptive.

• Identity-Based and “Not for You” Copy

  • Drawing boundaries (“This is not for X”) prompts readers to self-identify, reinforcing their “right fit” status.

3. TikTok Tactics & Monetization

[11:49–18:49]

• Focus on Monetization, Not Just Follower Growth

  • People want income, not just vanity metrics. Teach followers to build both audience and revenue.
  • “People don't really care about growing a following. They want to make money.”
    — TikTok Monetization Coach [11:49]

• Two Core Client Types

  • Coaches (selling programs, masterminds) and aspiring creators (wanting to monetize daily life).

• TikTok Shop for E-Commerce

  • TikTok Shop is now the #1 channel for physical products, empowering both direct sellers and affiliates.
    • Affiliates can request samples and create videos, expanding your reach at scale.
    • Companies can increase affiliate commissions and boost top-performing creators’ videos.
  • “Some people are just 100% TikTok shop creators—that's their sole job.”
    — TikTok Monetization Coach [15:13]

• Success Stories

  • Mercedes the Mystery Shopper: Used one viral video to earn $20,000 in a day, and ultimately $3M+.
  • Kathleen, the Mushroom Expert: Introverted, "muted," went viral and gained 20,000 emails in a day.
  • Immigration Attorney: No viral hit, but 121 calls and 10 clients from one targeted video—proof you don’t need extroversion or virality, just connection and relevance.
  • “You’re trying to connect with a human being in whatever way they want. You don’t have to have this big personality.”
    — TikTok Monetization Coach [18:12]

4. Customer Retention: Preventing Churn & Increasing LTV

[18:49–24:32]

• Active vs. Passive Retention

  • Active: What to do when someone tries to cancel.
  • Passive: How to keep people from wanting to cancel in the first place. This is more effective, especially in high-ticket/mastermind settings.
  • “Passive retention is really the name of the game for masterminds.”
    — Retention Specialist [18:49]

• Delivering Value as Retention Strategy

  • Make your offering indispensable so clients never want to leave.
  • “If they’re happy with what’s being delivered… it’s going to help you avoid those conversations later.”
    — Retention Specialist [19:51]

• Critical Churn Milestones

  • Watch for churn at month 1, 3, 6, 12.
    “Everyone with any kind of subscription needs to be looking at where people fall off.”
    — Retention Specialist [21:13]

• Boosting Retention at Drop-off Points

  • Provide timely incentives (bonuses, unlocks, gifts) tied to common churn points.
  • Example: Subscription brands giving small, meaningful surprise rewards just before expected drop-off.

• Legendary Retention: Perry Belcher’s Model

  • Hyper-focused on ongoing value—always asking, “What can I do for them this month?” along with dedicated staff building community and gathering feedback.

• Refunds & Salvage Offers

  • Never argue or shame—apologize, accept responsibility for confusion, and try to add value before giving a refund.
  • Create added, low-cost value (bonuses, ebooks, keep the bottle, partial refunds) in lieu of refund requests, especially with info products or supplements.
  • “The number one thing is don’t argue with them…‘I am so sorry that was your experience…’”
    — Emma Rainville [24:26]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There’s likely five to six stories revolving around your customer avatar… find those and tell them.”
  — Copywriting Expert [00:50]
• “If your audience is in a state of fear, then you need to sell peace. Just start the ad with ‘Want [blank]?’”
  — Copywriting Expert [03:05]
• “Within the first couple minutes I want… 10 micro commitments… in my webinar.”
  — Copywriting Expert [07:19]
• “You can’t just punch them in the head 15 times… You have to put an ice pack on, tell them they’re a good boy and you love them, then move on.”
  — Copywriting Expert [10:39]
• “Some people are just 100% TikTok Shop creators—that's their sole job.”
  — TikTok Monetization Coach [15:13]
• “You don’t have to have this big personality. You’re trying to connect with a human being in whatever way they want.”
  — TikTok Monetization Coach [18:12]
• “Passive retention is really the name of the game for masterminds.”
  — Retention Specialist [18:49]
• “Don’t argue with them…‘I am so sorry that was your experience…’”
  — Emma Rainville [24:26]

---

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |--------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–06:35 | Copywriting & Objection Handling | | 06:35–11:49 | Micro Commitments & Ron Lynch’s Approach | | 11:49–18:49 | TikTok Tactics & Monetization | | 18:49–24:32 | Retention, Churn Milestones, Refund Techniques |

---

Tone and Style Highlights

• Upbeat, candid, and often humorous—Emma keeps it light even when deep-diving into technical topics.
• Guests share directly from personal experience, often using real client stories and vivid analogies (chefs, lawyers, “punch and ice packs”).
• Practical, execution-first mentality: Action over theory, with step-by-step examples and encouragement to “steal these shortcuts.”

---

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode gives you a toolkit for driving revenue, loyalty, and scalable reach—mixing frontline sales psychology, copywriting precision, social media monetization, and retention strategy. If you want to know what’s working right now in direct response and digital commerce, Emma and her guests serve up real tactics you’ll want to test immediately.

For the full tactical playbook, visit: https://specialopspodcast.com

---

Transcript

[Copywriting Expert]

Foreign. I think a lot of what turns the no to the yes is over time, consistency, showing multiple sides of the product almost. You think about a like a nine sided die, like all the different sides of it and showing it and doing it in multiple different formats. And as well making sure that we're hitting like the different emotions that are consistent in the customer avatar. Because for a man there could be multiple emotions that they're, you know, they're tapping into. For a woman it could be completely different. And so I think a lot of what it is is consistency over time and then as well making sure we're hitting all the different sides of everything. That's kind of my, my philosophy on it.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty cool stuff. So can you talk to me about copywriting persuasion tactics?

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

That you have for turning those no's into yeses.

[Copywriting Expert]

Sure. I mean, tell a different story. Like, I think that copywriting, you know, like the clickbank VSLs that are very like I woke up in the middle of the night screaming and then she knew. Like it's like they use storytelling because storytelling works really, really well. And so there's likely five to six stories that are revolving around your customer avatar. You know, I use the oil field metaphor a lot. You've tapped oil in one area. Let's try and find the oil in multiple areas so we can set up those drills there to get other customers. And so there's probably five to six different stories. How can we tell those different stories? So, you know, if we're using like AI just as a basic example. Cause I can't, like I'm not gonna, you know, write right now in front of everyone. I would say like a perfect, you know, you get your five or six ICPs, the five or six different people that are buying your product and you Write a Ask ChatGPT to give you like a perfect diary entry of a story that they're telling about their experience with the product specific to them and what they're going through. And I'll get those five and then awesome, we got five different stories. Now I can go and take those and I can put those, you know, in ads. I can put them in VSLs, I can put them. I would say emails and ads are the best place to use those. So stories are one way to do it. The other way is kind of thinking about it like that. The conscious mind through logical arguments. Okay, what are the objections that someone would have? I always think about that because like I think that there's only so many different objections. Like when you Study sales guys. You realize there's only like a logistics a time which is kind of logistics, like an investment kind of thing. Like, or it's just they don't need it or they don't think it can help them. Like there's only so many objections that someone can have. So I'll figure out what all those objections are usually through the research and trying to figure out what it was. What, you know, great question to ask on any research call is, um, what made you almost say no? Like what, what made you almost say no on that? Why? Why did you say yes? You know, what was it specifically? And figuring those things out and then from there writing ads that like a lawyer presenting an argument, I bang out those different.

[Podcast Host]

You're overcoming those objections before they even enter the market.

[Copywriting Expert]

And that's the frequency of like over time. If, if like they're like, dang, this guy. Like, you know, I watched their vsl, I didn't buy. But then like the next day I saw this and that was true.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

I.

[Copywriting Expert]

And next day I saw that and I was like, I also had that. That's when you get into that, oh, I'm speaking their language or they're speaking my language. They're saying the thing that's going on in my mind better than I could myself. So I say that's another way to go about doing it. And then the last thing that I really like to do is kind of again going back to those ICPs. I really focus on what are the emotions that people are experiencing and what are they trying to get. So if you think about it like we talked about fear, well, the inverse of fear is peace. So if your audience is in a state of fear, then you need to sell peace. Just start the ad with want blank and test with literally just those two words, Want blank. So if it was, let's say with weight loss, Want peace of mind when you step on the scale, Want peace of mind at your next doctor's appointment. Want whatever. I will just test what are all the different motives we can say. And I'll take those and put them just into that basic want blank formula. So there's so many different tactics and strategies for it. This is why I always say that, like tactics and strategies are a dime a dozen. What matters more than anything is like, what are we saying? Like why are we saying it? So I find with a lot of my clients, they'll come to me and, you know, if it's a one on one consulting client, like we had this last week in Nashville where The client's like, oh, we need a vsl. And we start our private day and we're going through and we're collecting a lot of data. And he's like, I don't understand how this ties into vsl. I'm like, dude, chill. Like, give us an hour. We need to develop all the understanding of who we're speaking to and what we're saying. Then when we moved on to the vsl, like I just wrote it in front of them and they're like, he just got a VSL done in like an hour or two. It's like, how. Because I had all the information organized beforehand. It's like trying to cook a meal when you don't have all the ingredients organized versus like when you have everything.

[Podcast Host]

Like portioned out takes so much less time.

[Copywriting Expert]

That's how I.

[Podcast Host]

Why does it take Rachel Ray 13 minutes to. To put together the entire thing to go into the oven, but it takes me four hours because I'm cutting the garlic and putting it together. Cause I'm chopping all of the vegetables. Because she's prepared it all.

[Copywriting Expert]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host]

So you're preparing it all.

[Copywriting Expert]

I look at that as the same thing. It's the exact same thing. And so I think if people spent more time preparing data based on what their customers are saying and what they are seeing from their market and also what their competitors are saying. Cause that's usually some of the easiest shortcuts is just let them do the work for you and then taking it and just, you know, applying it to those different formulas. Ada, pass, etc, star. They all work. They're great. It's weird with AI now because like I, I feel like an old man almost when I say this. From like, I had to do it manually. Shut up. I had to do it manually.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Shut up.

[Copywriting Expert]

I had to do it manually.

[Podcast Host]

I'm almost double your age. Shut up.

[Copywriting Expert]

I had to write copy manually. Like I didn't have AI.

[Podcast Host]

I had to write copy manually.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

It's so true though. Me and I have a guy on my team, his name is Sokka. I absolutely adore him. And him and I were talking about. You probably remember Richard from my team. He's been with me since the very beginning. Richard, like he wrote this like 12 page thing and Sako's like, Emma. He's like, I think Richard wrote this whole thing by hand. And we both just had the biggest laugh because he wrote the whole thing by hand. It's like, who does that now? I don't even write an email anymore.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah. Anyway, you get what I mean, though?

[Podcast Host]

That's why I was like, we went off kilter. I'll bring it back. But ye.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah. So it's a big thing is like, you know, now it was always about the thoughts we just had writing as an intermediary. And so now the writing intermediary is gone. We don't need it anymore.

[Podcast Host]

Yep. I'd like to talk for a minute about micro commitments. I find that this is a hack. When you can get people to say yes, yes, yes to small things, it makes that bigger purchase so much easier. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? I'd love to chat about that for a minute, what that is and the best ways to set that up.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah, I'll give you a couple of things. Um, there's a lot of NLP out there on like how to create them.

[Podcast Host]

Jason Flatlin, he loves it. I. I actually don't know if he's a big NLP guy, to be honest.

[Copywriting Expert]

He definitely knows it.

[Podcast Host]

I work with him, so he definitely knows it, understands it. Even the way he repeats back what he hears someone say to them to validate them. But he, he uses a lot of these micro commitment hacks.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

And that's kind of where I've leaned in, but go ahead.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah. He does it in the webinars where like, it's almost the philosophy I think a lot of the VSL and webinars guys have. I'm very similar to him in that, like within the first couple minutes I want to. To 10 micro commitments on it. So one of the micro commitments, like in terms of language is. Right. You're saying that it's so frustrating to lose weight. Right. You know, and so person's like, yes. And even though they're not saying it, they are kind of, they're saying they're saying it in their head. So that's one version of it. I like to also focus on the outcome that they're trying to get to by the end of this webinar. I'm going to give you, you're going to have the exact path that you need to follow to be able to triple your sales as an Amazon store seller. And so the micro commitment there isn't you getting to say yes, it's that I want that thing. And so I'm going to get that at the end. And so I look at micro commitments as almost like open loops and I want them to commit to closing the loop, you know, so that, you know, is another one as well. I use that one almost unconsciously. I just say, you know, what I'm saying is a big one.

[Podcast Host]

Makes sense. Is my favorite.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah, Makes sense.

[Podcast Host]

Does that make sense?

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Because. Are you dumb? Do you not understand what I'm saying?

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yes. Yeah. So I like that. But the other thing as well that I like to do, and I actually learned this from Ron Lynch. He's a very close mentor of mine. I attribute a lot of my success. Uncle Ron. I attribute a lot of success to Ron.

[Podcast Host]

He still comes on my damn Amazon show. I can't figure out how to like, he'll just.

[Copywriting Expert]

Oh, he just pops up. Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Well, he got me one time we were hanging out, and I was like, in my Alexa app, and we were talking about how he has his little show. His little show. I shouldn't say, like, that. It's a great show. I've read everything Ron lynch has ever written, including his private collection of writings he sent to me a few years ago.

[Copywriting Expert]

The Mercenary.

[Podcast Host]

He actually sent me 12, 13 different books that he's written that never got published, and I consume them all. So Ron's great, but he showed me on Amazon how I could subscribe to his show. Oh.

[Copywriting Expert]

So it just pops up always now.

[Podcast Host]

And so even when he doesn't put. Even when it's like, been a while since he put something out, it's like, do Uncle Ron.

[Copywriting Expert]

Uncle Ron here. And I love you. Yeah, he always does that. And I love you.

[Podcast Host]

And I love you.

[Copywriting Expert]

So Ron taught me how. I think that sometimes what would happen is I write. I do write aggressive copy. I don't write unethical copy, but I'm kind of naturally. I think in my life, I'm a little bit more intense of an individual. And so with my copy, it sometimes gets intense. And what he always talks about is, you're building the pain. You want to stop the pain and go to explain them that, like, yes, this is your fault, but I'm gonna show you how to get out of it. So, like, for instance, we're writing for a diabetes offer, and one of the things was, you know, and this is the byproduct of eat or, you know, I was talking about how blood sugar going up and up and up and, like, in the. You know, the side effect that is like, you could have an early death. Right. And there's a lot of bad stuff that can happen.

[Podcast Host]

I almost feel like, worse than that. This is what I go to for blood sugar. Worse than that, you can lose your sight. You can have no feet.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah, yeah. So you go to these Little.

[Podcast Host]

I feel like that's worth the. Yeah, right.

[Copywriting Expert]

So, like, whatever the thing is, like, you can have all these medical ailments that pop up. What Ron does is then immediately at that point. But don't worry. Even though this is something that's due to the behaviors that you've created or habits over time, in this short video, I'm going to show you exactly how to reverse everything to the point where we can get you back to how you felt when you were 20. Now let's move on. And then he goes back to the pain. So there's a quick. Like he explains it is Nick, you can't just punch them in the head 15 times and then be like, now pay attention. Like, you can't do that. He's like, you have to punch them in the face 15 times and then put an ice pack on them, tell them they're a good boy and we love them. And now we move on to the next thing, right?

[Podcast Host]

Break them down, build them back up.

[Copywriting Expert]

I look at that as almost like you could call like a maybe a variation of a micro commitment. It's. It's again, open loops. So a lot of what I'm doing is it's in the language. It's in like them committing to that they want to change something. And then as well, you know, I like the people will say, for instance, this is not for blank, blank, blank. And all we do when we say that is we just speak to like the antagonist of this person. It's usually their shadow that they're in denial about. So it's like, this is not for the person that's looking for fast, easy hacks who just wants to take a pill and then, boom, everything's done. I'm here to tell you today that that's a scam. And you've likely, if you're like me or like my dad, you know, you fell for some of these things and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, right? And then you move on. Like, that's almost like a formal micro commitment and identity. Micro commitment. Oh, yes, I align with that.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

People wanted to know how to create on TikTok, but I knew that people don't really care about growing a following. They want to make money. So here's how to create great short videos, here's how to get people's attention, and then here's how to get them from being a follower to actually to the link in your bio to purchase, right? And then I had to revise the course because now TikTok offered all of these ways that you can monetize. Kind of like with YouTube, you're able to get money through views and ads and all that. Well, TikTok launched all of these monetization ways and so I had to update the course to go, okay, if you want to make money through views, do this accidentally. I became an influencer because I had never had a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand followers. So all the brands started coming along wanting to pay me to create content. Like TikTok came and paid me like a lot of Money to create 10 videos to be the face of their holiday campaign. And I was like, I'm an influencer. But I didn't know that I was. So I then I had to start teaching coaches. Hey, you've got a following. You are an influencer. Here's how to monetize that in addition to your coaching business.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

So average run of the mill client of yours, they're a business and they're selling what?

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Yeah. So the average client, there are two people. One, they're usually selling some type of coaching services, right? They're trying to reach people who want to buy either their mastermind, their digital course or their consulting. And then the second person is someone that says, I want to become a full time content creator. I work a full time job and I want to create content about my life, me and my kids and whatever. And we want to monetize our lives and turn our lives into content and it's into money. And so I'm teaching both people how to monetize.

[Podcast Host]

So average business, let's say a business that has like a Shopify e commerce store with a bunch of different gadgets, should they be on TikTok? Yo, we interrupt this pod to tell you like and subscribe. What are you doing? Why haven't you liked, why haven't you subscribed? Just subscribe. What's the problem? In all seriousness, subscribe so that you get notifications every time we drop new content. Additionally, if you have not signed up for our visionary vault, what the hell? Www.specialopspodcast.com Go sign up. It's free. We never try and sell you and we're putting all kinds of stuff in there to help you with the operations of your business because we're passionate about it and we want to share operational excellence with our direct response e commerce and online selling family.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Oh, absolutely. Because TikTok shop is like the number one way to sell any physical products right now. Because the way that TikTok Shop works is multiple things. One, if you have a physical product, you're able to upload your inventory to TikTok and you can sell it through your own videos. But also there's the opportunity for the affiliates. So let's just say you sell water bottles. You put your water bottles on TikTok shop and you said, yes, we want creators to be able to sell it. I will pay them $1, $2, whatever, per item that they sell. And now a creator can come along and go into shop and say, ooh, I want to sell that. And then they can either buy the product and. Or they can request the product as a free sample. You ship it to them, and then now this creator creates content for you, and they're making money through their shop affiliate link. And you're making a ton of money because they're doing all the work. But then you also then can reach out to those same creators and say, hey, we want to partner with you more. We'll actually boost your videos even more so that you make more and we make more. And so they'll also will increase your percentage. If you're really crushing it with a video, a company will reach out and say, hey, you're our number one seller. We want to increase your percentage of how much you make per item, and we're going to boost your videos. You know, so some people are just 100% Tik Tok shop creators. That's their sole job.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty interesting.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Can you talk about some of your clients and like, some of the success that they've found following your strategy?

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

One of my clients, her name is Mercedes, She's a mystery shopper. Initially, she had a mystery shopping business, and I think she had made like $20,000 period. And she didn't really understand how to market her business. And so we taught her just how to create short videos. Going into a store and acting like a mystery shopper, but filming it. There was a sound that was called super spy or whatever. So she filmed herself walking through Target like a spy. Right? And she put text on screen about being a mystery shopper. She had a link in her bio to buy her mystery shopper course. She posted the video, put her phone down. The next day she had 1.5 million views. And she made $20,000 in seven days from the one short video. $20,000 in 24 hours. And she kept doing it. So now she's made over $3 million in her business. But she started doing that on TikTok and on Facebook. She started growing her Facebook reels and started really, really Turning that around to being like a massive success. And it's just these short videos that's leading her people to her bio. It's crazy, right?

[Podcast Host]

Crazy. Yeah. So what if someone says like, hey, I just don't have the personality to be on video.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Yeah. So the truth is, is that like a lot of people when they meet me, they think that you have to have my personality. Like it's very outgoing and all that, but that's not the case, you know. Marshmallow. Exactly. Like Mercedes. Her personality isn't quite like mine, but I have a client of mine and her name is Kathleen. She's very introverted, very muted, very chill. And she teaches people about medicinal mushrooms. And so we were like, okay, just show up in your expertise. And so she showed up in her expertise, in her quiet way teaching. Her video went viral. She gained I think was like 2 million views. 50,000 followers in 24 hours. 20,000 people join her email list from one video. But she just had to be her, her muted self. Another one of my clients, she's an immigration attorneys. You know, for most part attorneys are very profess and so she wanted to be very professional and her goal was she wanted to get 10,000 followers and she wanted to go viral. And I was like, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna do this right? We had to figure it out. And so we did this video. It did not go viral. But over the weekend she got 121 calls to her law office and got 10 paid clients. And so she realized she didn't need to go viral. She didn't need 10,000 followers. She needed to just reach her target audience. And she did. Right. And she doesn't have a big personality at all.

[Podcast Host]

Your lawyers are usually pretty dry on. There's like, there's a couple that do really well. Mostly they're pretty dry on social media.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Cuz it doesn't require like that. We, a lot of times we think on social media, on video, we have to have this personality, but it's, that's not the case. You're trying to connect with a human being in whatever way they want to be communicated with. You know, like there's a gynecologist that talks all about like perimenopause and menopause. Well, there's no personality there with her. It's just like, it's just Dr. Mary and she's just talking and she's teaching, but she has exploded all over the world. And she's the number one lady everybody calls on for perimenopause. And menopause. Oprah, her book is on a New York Times bestsellers list for like four months. And she's just a doctor with doctor speak. But speaking to women about what we're.

[Retention Specialist]

All dealing with, active and passive retention. The differentiation is active retention is, okay, this guy wants to cancel, what do you do to stop him? Passive is how do you stop them wanting to cancel in the first place? So with something high ticket, you're going to have a lower success chance for the active subscription. Because if someone's decided not to give you hundreds of dollars anymore, it's a lot harder to say, hey, here's why you should give me that money still, than it is to say, okay, can you keep on giving me $50 a month or something to that effect. So passive retention is really the name of the game for masterminds. There's. That is what we really like to do. Give them a reason why they would absolutely never want to quit. You're giving them so much value, and that's one way to do it. You are trying to pre convince them that there is no reason that they would stop doing this. It's got to be an essential for them with something like a mastermind, where it's a significant amount of their time that is being invested as well as their money. So really, the core of it comes down to how you deliver the product. If they are happy with what's being delivered, if you are, and if there's a nice balance between the amount of time that you or the client is spending on delivering that service, then it's really going to help you avoid some of those conversations later down the road. If they're not satisfied for some reason, the question is, what's not satisfying them? And how do we build something that's actually a little bit more in line with what they are looking for. What they're expecting is something like a mastermind. I mean, this is really kind of critical because it's the entire ecosystem. It's not just the people who are canceling. It's the chilling effect that it has on other people.

[Podcast Host]

Right. When people cancel.

[Retention Specialist]

Yeah. Because, okay, this guy isn't around anymore. Well, he was actually quite a big part of what I enjoyed about the mastermind.

[Podcast Host]

The thing that I think a lot of people need to remember when you're on a monthly subscription and at Shockwave, we have a monthly retainer, same thing. If you do something absolutely phenomenal for someone today that, like, knocks it over the moon. I've literally had clients say to me, oh, my Goodness. This paid for Shockwave for the next five years. Three months later but what have you done for me lately? I want to kind of shift and talk about that and I want to be. While we're talking about masterminds, we can be specific because this goes to any type of retention. What are some things that we can be thinking about at mile markers? Month one, we generally see big fall offs. Month one, month three, month six and month 12.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Retention Specialist]

Just to break that down, that's something that everyone with any kind of subscription needs to be looking at. Like where do people fall off?

[Podcast Host]

What is the average percentage first month retention? 40%, right?

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Across the board, depending on industry. About 40%.

[Retention Specialist]

Definitely around. Around there. It's not most people, particularly if you've got something like a trial offer that's going to really drive those numbers down. But yeah, I mean the question is where are people falling off and what can you give them so that you've done something to them recently? We've had quite a few memberships in the past where we roll out incentives to stick past the common fail rates.

[Copywriting Expert]

Like.

[Retention Specialist]

Okay, I'm gonna unlock this bonus lesson for you. When you.

[Podcast Host]

Once you unlock it, you unlock it.

[Retention Specialist]

It just happens to be when you.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Right.

[Podcast Host]

When the average person drops off.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Retention Specialist]

You'll see it with like hellofresh or something like that. They have those very specific mile markers that are going to be very much laid out based on when you stop.

[Podcast Host]

Doe's Coffee, the mushroom coffee place. They did a phenomenal job of it because they give you free crap every month. And you know, like the months that they have, the retention is good. It's like a sticker. The months. It's not. It's like this dual froster with eight speeds.

[TikTok Monetization Coach]

Yeah.

[Retention Specialist]

Cuz I mean it's a. Again, this is all passive retention. It's taking away any reason for them to say, well this.

[Podcast Host]

Why am I getting this?

[Retention Specialist]

You take away that question and you have this immediately better portfolio for retention. Like obviously numbers of retained sales, they don't look as good because there's less people trying to leave. But you keep the people, you keep them around. I don't think we can discuss the actual percentages for Ignite.

[Podcast Host]

No, certainly not fantastic. But yeah, fantastic with Ignite. But I think the big reason why Ignite has like I wouldn't even want to give retention numbers for Ignite Mastermind because it's so out of what anyone else's numbers would ever be. And I honestly think. Okay, so you get a couple of elements. You Get a few ingredients here. The first ingredient. Perry Belcher, godfather of marketing. He's been doing this a long, long time. Dude, 60 he's been doing this a long, long, long, long time. And he's been in the shoes of every marketer, every level, several times because he started over several times. So he truly understands what they want. And he spends a lot of time, probably more time than any visionary entrepreneur, owner I've ever dealt with, thinking about what do I give to them new this month, what do I do for them this month, how do I make them better this month. And he also spends a lot of time asking questions to his people and training customer service to do the same. How is this going for you? What would you like to see? He has multiple people on staff that build community and talk to his client base to make sure. But I want to move on now to, okay, I want a refund. What are some points of retention we can use to keep that from happening?

[Retention Specialist]

Sure. I mean this is really a case of figuring out your reasons for people.

[Podcast Host]

Wanting to I never signed up for this. Said everyone.

[Copywriting Expert]

Yeah.

[Retention Specialist]

So that's going to be a pretty common one. So in those cases it's really going to be a case of, well, they definitely wanted the product in the first place, so what can you do to keep them on path like they do, on some level want to be there? It's a case of figuring out they.

[Podcast Host]

Just don't want to pay for it.

[Retention Specialist]

Where you can drop the price to while keeping it profitable for yourself, while keeping it effective for them.

[Podcast Host]

So generally speaking, we don't recommend dropping prices though you can, so you can. We don't rec. None of our offers drop prices. If you can't pay, you're not a hell yes. If you're not a hell yes, you're a hell no. Get out. That's how we do things. But there are people who are in the supplement space that they get the product and now you're out the money if you take it back. So you may as well drop the price to cover your cost. So there are times where that makes sense, there are times that they don't. When you're dealing with masterminds, clubs, SaaS, anything like that, you don't want to reduce your pricing because you'll reduce your room in your community. And I say SaaS, SaaS really depends. If you've got like community boards and stuff like that, you don't want to do that. But if you're selling supplements, physical goods, info, products that are one offs, it's really easy for me to say, hey, Tiago, I understand that you didn't realize. First of all, the number one thing is don't argue with them that they knew or that they should have known or that they're stupid for not knowing or it's in clear print. I see this all the time. We go into evaluate customer service, we evaluate the entire business, but we get into customer service. We've got customer service managers taking screenshots of the checkout pages that the person saw three months ago and sending it to them. Like you should have read. I met you because you worked for a company that used to call their people twats for asking for a refund. No kidding. So first and foremost, I am so sorry that was your experience. That is not how we meant it. I will make sure the marketing team understands that our customer, you, Tiago, didn't see that. So perhaps we need to look at how we're marketing that. That aside, I'm really sorry for your experience, but that aside, I really want to make your experience a good one. So if it's an info product, I'll generally take. I don't give a Fuck. If it's $5,000 in Info products and you bought 100 DOL, I would love to unlock 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 at $997 value for your $97, you'll pay nothing more. I like to give that to you in lieu of a refund so that you can walk away with a smile on your face because I really believe that this program is great for you. Cost me nothing to give them nothing. If it's a supplement, I want my money back. If I'm not going to be able to, you know, turn that around, I generally we've written ebooks and we've written content to say, hey, in lieu of a refund, we' you to keep the bottle. And we'd love to give you this free recipe book to go with your weight loss supplement to, you know, accelerate your weight loss. And if it, if it doesn't work out for you in like 45 days, you can call us back and we'll refund you anyway. They'll forget about it. That generally works. But if they're like, no, no, no, no, no, I'm adamant. I want my money back. If the bottle cost me eight bucks and it cost me nine bucks to send it to them, how about in lieu of a full refund, you keep the bottle? Because I do believe that you'll really like the results that you get not. I guarantee it's going to work for you. See the difference? I do believe you're going to like or enjoy the results you get. I'd love to go ahead and give you a partial refund and you just cover our costs and so I can offer you X amount today. So we like to do that as well. Just so we cover our hard costs, but particularly on physical goods and products, you kind of get the idea of what we're talking about. Feel free to put your questions in the comments. Www.specialoutspodcast.com Sign up for our Visionary Vault. We never try and sell you anything. We have tons of courses, checklists, GPTs, all kinds of stuff in there. Free for you guys all the time. We just want to add value to our community. Thank you and see you next time.