A (2:20)

Right.

B (2:21)

Like if I give you access to my sales records or media strategies or whatever it is, they're not allowed to go and take that and then use it for a competitor.

A (2:29)

I can't unlearn that though.

B (2:31)

Yes, true. Like they're at a very high level. There's, there's ways that like the how to do your job. That's not corporate information, right?

A (2:39)

Well, I mean, sure, but let's say. Okay, so for example, and by the way, let me prerequisite before you come for me in the comments. I hate non competes. I think it's awful to put an employee or a contractor in jail because they're not working with you. I think that they're terrible. But I just want to give you a couple of caveats of why as an employer, it might be advantageous for me to utilize the non compete. Richard. Take Richard for example. He runs all of our Facebook ads, right? He runs all of our PPC ads. If he goes to work for a direct competitor to me, he knows exactly how to run those ads to compete with me. That's not a trade secret, that's learned and there's nothing I can do to stop it. But if he were to, then God, I hope he does really well. But from most employers standpoint, I can understand why they're like, you can't unlearn what I've taught you or the data that you've seen in your tenure with me. And you can really hurt me by going to my biggest competitor and bringing that experience and knowledge that I paid for to them. So.

B (3:42)

Yeah, but see, I think there's a misunderstanding of what non competes were like intended to cover.

A (3:46)

Right. So let's talk about that.

B (3:48)

So at a very, very basic level, like when we were in law school and you're, you're worrying about some of this stuff, non competes were intended thousand.

A (3:55)

Years ago, getting old.

B (3:56)

I know I have white hair or gray hair. So the example that they used in law school was say you are a dentist office.

A (4:03)

Okay, Right.

B (4:04)

And you come up with this new procedure or whatever it is. Okay, Right. Proprietary. You spend time and effort training these people who work at your dentist practice to figure out how to do this procedure, right. That dental, dental hygienist or whatever.

A (4:18)

Go to a new dentist office and tell them proprietary information.

B (4:21)

Well, tell the proprietary information. But the non compete was intended so long as there was like a reasonable like geographic scope and so long as it was.

A (4:28)

Isn't it like 11 miles or something?

B (4:30)

It was like 2 miles and.

A (4:31)

Okay, is it 2 miles?

B (4:32)

It depends. Well, so like New York, think about it like New York City is much different than Idaho. Right. So you might have a more smaller scope if you were in a metropolitan area because of how people move around. But the idea was, okay, you want to restrain these people from leaving one business, your business, to work for a competitor for a reasonable amount of time so that the business who put all this time and effort into this employee has an ability to basically compete and keep the business. And you know, they, you know, that employee cannot immediately go to a competitor and you know, solicit the customers to kind of come over and basically follow these employees. The problem with that is, is, you know, times change and you know, just the run of the mill, like how I buy Facebook ads, like just how to do your job isn't really a trade secret anymore. It's not really that. It's not what non competes were, you know, intended to cover. Because think about it this way, like if you brought someone on as a junior employee and you brought them all the way to like almost senior management, they're like screw it, I'm out of here. Like to keep that person from leaving and going to a new employer just because, oh well, I don't want them using, you know, basically how they look, how their job for someone else. That's not fair. And that's what the FTC was getting at.

A (5:46)

I completely agree. I don't, I don't like the idea of anyone, whether it be a spouse, whether it be an employee, whether it be a business partner, no one should have shackles on them or, or they feel like they have to stay. I would rather people stay because they want to stay. However, I do understand the I'm going to pay to educate this person. They're going to know everything about my business and then they can go to my direct competitor.

B (6:10)

They can, they really can.

A (6:12)

And they know where my clients are, they have relationship with my clients.

B (6:16)

So there's a difference. There's a non compete, there's non solicit.

A (6:18)

And this, this is where I want to jump into because a lot of people think that the non compete by it not being enforceable anymore. And I remember back in a day I would get phone calls from people, it was like, hey, you just hired so and so I'm going to sue you. I actually called you with a client in Arizona about it. And so times have changed. But there are ways to protect myself contractually that isn't a non compete. So let's talk about that.

B (6:44)

Hey everyone, interrupting this podcast to remind everybody to like and subscribe our podcast and to sign up for the visionary vault at www.

A (6:51)

Sponsor special ops podcast.com for a whole.

B (6:55)

Bunch of free re so non solicitor one for a certain amount of time you will not solicit the people who work here. So your existing employees, you will not solicit clients that you've worked with.

A (7:07)

There's a comment on that that I can have though, right? Like I can't put forever.

B (7:09)

Well, no, and that's where I'm going. I mean not the non solicitation provision. I mean it is like a mini non compete and there are state laws on this in some states. Majority of states I would almost say are moving away from this because it looks like a non compete. Right. Because if you were to leave business and start up your own shop and you can't talk to anyone, that's a problem. Like it's basically a non compete without getting a non compete. So non solicitation provision is one way, I would say strongly disfavored, but it is one way. The other way is making sure you will not be able to stop that person from starting up a competing business.

A (7:42)

Okay.

B (7:43)

But what you can do is make sure that you have very strong confidentiality provisions in your agreement. You're going to need to police your IP and your trade secrets, make sure that they're not taking stuff with them. And then if that person goes to another employer and then all of a sudden they are doing exactly, you know, something that they say it's brand new, they're starting a new division or the only way that they could have done that is by utilizing data. Not just their know how in industry, but some sort of data.

A (8:11)

An email list, proprietary process framework.

B (8:16)

Exactly.

A (8:17)

Code is big one, a huge plan.

B (8:19)

Right. All of a sudden you will see this program working in a, in a way that has never done that before and it just coincidentally happens with the departure of a couple of employees. So you're, to be honest, the best way to do it is you're going to have to be aggressive and you're going to have to police it. I mean a lot of the letters are going to go out. It's like, hey, we know that you've gone over to this competitor and these are the letters that you're sending to that competitor. It's like, we know that this employee has left. We know that they have access or had access to proprietary information. We are watching. You'd be on notice like and oh really?

A (8:48)

You Know before they did anything.

B (8:50)

Totally, absolutely. We've done this. But the, the, the problem with that is it's not a great solution because then you're in litigation. Because the only way to really enforce it is litigation.

A (8:59)

Litigation. And litigation is expensive. No, it's very expensive and very difficult to prove.

B (9:03)

Yeah, I mean we, we had a case where it was companies that made these like little dishwasher pots and it was like who took this type of IP and went over here and made a competing product. And like, I mean it's, it's a problem. And so that was where we knew that they stole data. So we are going to go litigate it. And so that's the problem is litigation is never going to be a solution.

A (9:24)

I love to say the words I.

B (9:26)

Will sue you until I get the bill.

A (9:30)

Until I get the bill that I don't like saying it anymore. Then I call you and say, how do I get out of this, Ryan?

B (9:34)

Well, no, everybody wants to be principal until they start getting the right, the bills.

A (9:37)

It's tough, man. It's tough because you can pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation and get what, your own stuff back. Just go out and be a better marketer, a better business, a better brand and better deliverer. I want to move on though to exits because there's different rules around and I'd like to understand it because I actually don't. If I'm exiting my business, if I sell you shockwave and I exit and I have a non compete that holds a little bit more weight is my understanding, but not necessarily so. Can you talk about that?

B (10:08)

So kind of default position still holds true, but there's a difference when an owner leaves at this point because we're not talking about low level employees anymore. We are talking about senior executives. I've exited, I've sold my business. I shouldn't be able to immediately go out and start a competing business and compete directly with you because I understand everything.

A (10:26)

Right.

B (10:27)

So that will definitely hold more weight, but it does need to be limited in scope. Geography is not necessarily a big thing, at least in our industry because it's global and geography won't be the big thing. It's what is exactly prohibited by that non compete. Is it starting up in a, a competing business? Is it the same type of services? It needs to be very detailed about what they can and cannot do and that is more likely to be enforceable. And I say likely because there's still a little bit of a, you know, there is state law that has to be taken into account, but that is one way. So if you are exiting, there's at least a strong policy justification for yeah, Emma can't sell her business and then immediately go out and start a new one.

A (11:06)

Yeah, start Tsunami Solutions.

B (11:09)

Exactly. But then one thing we didn't say, use of IP copyright trademarks.

A (11:14)

I mean, but step one, define IP ownership. So many people don't have their IP in their asset list and that is wildly important.

B (11:24)

We went through this with a client not too long ago. It was a, it was an exit and trying to get a list of IP or the assets that the business owned was like pulling teeth. Our client was very, very helpful. But the other side wasn't.

A (11:38)

Right.

B (11:38)

So when you're buying a business and you're buying assets, you need to be able to know exactly what you're buying, even with employees.

A (11:43)

Right? So your IP consists of anything and everything. So give me some examples.

B (11:49)

I mean it is your copyrights, it is your trademark, your split test data, email lists, anything, almost anything and everything that's in that. Exactly.

A (11:59)

Having a simple folder in your drives that says IP when you started using it, how you've implemented it, where you've implemented it, what products you've implemented it for, your URLs even like down to that.

B (12:13)

And where that's important is to think about, you know, running competing ads.

A (12:17)

Right.

B (12:18)

I mean if that ad, if you have a copyright on parts of the images in that ad. Right.

A (12:23)

Have you done it correctly? Most ads are iterated so quickly, which.

B (12:27)

They'Re not, but there are components of it that right. Will likely have copyright content in it. Like if you are protecting it. And then that can. Let's go back to the business owner example. That business owner is then basically making that something that's a facsimile of them. That's going to be an issue for them and that'll give you some, some leverage.

A (12:44)

I hope you found this helpful, impactful because it is important to protect your ip. But you also can't put people in jail and not allow them to earn for their families. So how to do it the right way? If you're relying on a non compete to protect your agency, offer or client list, you're playing legal roulette. Ryan and I put together an ebook on non compete and legal ways to protect yourself and your assets. You can get that by going to www.specialopspodcast.com and signing up for our visionary vault. We have tons of resources for free for you. Protect your exit, fortify your contracts, scale smart and see you next time.

B (13:28)

See you.