Team Stability: What Actually Keeps People (and Clients)

Summary

Special Ops with Emma Rainville

Episode: Team Stability: What Actually Keeps People (and Clients)

Release Date: March 3, 2026
Host: Emma Rainville
Guest: Mitch Barham

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Emma Rainville and her guest, agency owner Mitch Barham, dive deep into the real strategies and challenges behind building stable, long-lasting teams—whether remote or in-house. They discuss the crucial relationship between culture, hiring, client retention, and leadership, offering candid insights (and plenty of humor) drawn directly from their years in the trenches of direct response marketing and agency management. The episode is full of actionable advice, personal stories, and memorable moments, making it a must-listen for agency leaders and founders who want to avoid high turnover and keep both their talent and clients happy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Non-Negotiables of Team Stability

• Healthy Culture Equals Healthy Business

  • High staff turnover leads directly to client turnover.
  • “If you turn over your staff, your clients will also turn over.” — Emma Rainville [00:01]

• Resourcefulness and Adaptability

  • Ability to solve problems independently is essential; resourcefulness is the top hiring criteria.
  • “Do you know about this cool tool called Google?” — Mitch Barham [03:30]
  • In a fast-evolving industry, sticking to what used to work is a recipe for stagnation.

• Ownership and Accountability

  • Hire people who own their mistakes and responsibilities. Avoid chronic finger-pointers.
  • “One of the human being types that I cannot stand is someone who blames everyone else... everything was always someone else’s fault.” — Emma Rainville [08:00]
  • Leadership sets the tone by taking responsibility: “The buck stops with us.” — Emma Rainville [10:11]

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Hiring Approaches: The "Vibe Check" and Beyond

• Culture Fit First, Skills Second

  • Candidates are vetted for cultural alignment by meeting multiple team members before the final interview.
  • “My hiring... is more vibe checks than anything. Yo, are you gonna fit? Do you know enough? And how teachable are you?” — Mitch Barham [00:11, 06:25]
  • Technical chops matter, but teachability and resilience to mistakes are critical.

• Beware of the Brilliant Jerk

  • Even highly skilled employees can destroy culture and morale if they undermine accountability or disrupt the team.
  • “They could have all the talent in the world, but… it’s not worth destroying yourself [and] the culture.” — Mitch Barham [11:21]
  • The negative impact of one toxic team member far outweighs any skills they bring.

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Remote Teams vs. In-House Teams: Pros, Cons & Best Practices

Building a Healthy Remote Team

• Transparent Communication is Key

  • Use always-on video calls to maintain rapport and read body language.
  • “We’re all on video for every call. I’m looking at body language for my team.” — Emma Rainville [27:44]
  • Involve team members in decision-making and goal-setting for maximum buy-in.
  • “When you help design the map, there’s way more buy-in.” — Emma Rainville [29:04]

• Supporting Growth and Ownership

  • Create pathways to partnership/ownership for “pre-entrepreneurs” who seek stability with upward mobility.
  • “If they can stomach the growth level, then they can stay and own part of what I've created.” — Emma Rainville [27:17]
  • Invest in personal goals: caring about your team member’s lives outside of work builds loyalty and resilience.

• Physical Connection Still Matters

  • Hold occasional in-person retreats: “There’s no one on my team I haven’t spent a lot of time with.” — Emma Rainville [33:56]

• Daily Rhythm and Meeting Cadence

  • “Morning face-to-face” calls every day for check-ins and project alignment.
  • Weekly/biweekly 1:1s with key team members; weekly on-the-business “breaker” meetings for deep discussion.
  • “Me and Saka meet every day… our morning face to face from 9 to 9:30.” — Emma Rainville [36:53]

Running In-House Teams: Advantages & Challenges

• In-Person Presence Reinforces Connection

  • “If I don’t hear from you, see you… you don’t exist.” — Mitch Barham [36:23]
  • Immediate access: walk down the hall for quick problem-solving beats disruptive calls for some leaders.

• Object Permanence: Out of Sight, Out of Mind

  • Leaders with “object permanence” struggles—often related to ADHD—may thrive better with in-person teams or very regular check-ins.

• Physical Environment Adds Personality

  • “Don’t come in my office... I farted. You might not want to come in here for a few minutes…” — Mitch Barham [42:19]
  • The episode closes with stories about pranks and the quirks of office life, underlining the importance of a fun work environment.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Resourcefulness:
  “Dude, if you ask me a question you could have Googled… I know you’re gone in a week. I don’t even try and remember your name.”
  — Emma Rainville [03:30]

• On Accountability:
  “If your team is like, ‘you didn’t tell me, you didn’t let me know,’ and it’s something they should have known… no way.”
  — Emma Rainville [10:27]

• On Bad Hires:
  “One person can make you, the business owner, not want to show up.”
  — Emma Rainville [16:24]

• On Building Remote Teams:
  “I love to hire people who aren’t quite ready to own their own company but that I can help shape and mold, watch them grow, and put them in front of clients that can help them grow.”
  — Emma Rainville [25:12]

• On Team Buy-In:
  “We talk till we agree. If we don’t come to an agreement… then we don’t move forward.”
  — Emma Rainville [29:05]

• On In-Person Teams and Pranks:
  “They filled my office with 600 balloons… So then I threatened to fill their trucks up with marbles. [Sand is] way cheaper and way harder to clean up.”
  — Mitch Barham & Emma Rainville [47:40]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:01-01:51] — Why healthy culture matters for client and team retention.
• [03:30-04:55] — Emphasizing resourcefulness in hiring and managing team problem-solving.
• [08:00-11:21] — The dangers of the “brilliant jerk” and holding out too long on poor fits.
• [19:00-22:39] — The productivity impact of high vs. low performers.
• [25:12-33:56] — Tactics for hiring, developing, and retaining remote team superstars.
• [36:07-39:02] — Object permanence and in-person team management challenges.
• [41:18-43:40] — Stories about office quirks, pranks, and why personal connection matters.
• [47:24-49:59] — The closing banter, pranks escalation, and summarizing the episode’s big lessons.

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Final Takeaways

• Stable teams underpin stable client relationships and profitable businesses.
• Culture, accountability, and growth opportunities matter more than pure skills.
• High performers and good culture are contagious—one jerk or slacker can destroy years of careful building.
• Remote work can be as effective as in-house—if you’re intentional with communication, development, and connection.
• Fun, candor, and human quirks are not only tolerated but celebrated in great teams.

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For more actionable playbooks and team management checklists, check out:
specialopspodcast.com

Guest: Mitch Barham
Host: Emma Rainville

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Memorable Closing:
“One person can make you, the business owner, not want to show up. What can happen when you put one person [wrong person] on the team…” — Emma Rainville [16:24]

Transcript

[A]

You have to evolve or die.

[B]

In order to have a healthy agency, you have to have healthy culture so that you don't have a ton of turnover. Because if you turn over your staff, your clients will also turn over.

[A]

My hiring is kind of sounds like more vibe checks than anything where it's like, yo, are you gonna fit? Do you know enough? And how teachable are you?

[B]

You asked me a question. You could have googled I know you're gone and on.

[A]

They could have all the talent in the world, but fuck em, it's not worth destroying yourself. The

[B]

hi and thank you for joining another episode of Special Ops podcast. I am your host, Emma Rainville and this is where we give actionable insights to direct response marketers and e commerce sellers. Today I'm talking to my homeboy, Mitch Barham about teams. Remote teams or in house teams? Which one's better? All right, so thanks for coming back. I wanted to chat with you about teams, how to build teams, how to grow teams. We've chatted about this a lot. We both have the challenge of having a full roster of clients that your teams actually work for. And so they work for you, but they also work for your clients. In order to have a healthy agency, you have to have healthy culture so that you don't have a ton of turnover. Because if you turn over your staff, your clients will also turn over.

[A]

Well, they freak out.

[B]

Right. I don't even want to imagine if one of my team members left. I don't want to imagine having to like, let me dive in and understand every single aspect of this client's business in order to onboard someone new and teach them. Because that's what it would take so my team doesn't go anywhere. Thank God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't need to do that. But that's really tough. And so in order to maintain team, you have to maintain good clients, good client expectations, good client relationships. You have to maintain good relationships with your people while holding them accountable. You have to maintain a healthy culture while maintaining a healthy desire to grow revenue. Particularly in today's climate where we have to charge less and less and pay more and more to keep people. So talk to me about what you do at your company.

[A]

Great question. Nobody's perfect at hiring for sure.

[B]

People who tell you they do. I think that there are people that are decent at it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And people who are not decent at it.

[A]

Culture is huge, especially, like within my team. I mean, it should be huge with everybody. Like, if you have a crappy culture and people are going to want to Be there, they're going to leave. So to make sure they're going to be a good fit for our culture, I like to not just have potential new employees. You know, they don't just talk to me like, they run through a couple of my other higher ups that they know me good enough that they'll be able to tell, are they gonna fit? Are they gonna be able to deal with my craziness and just the entire vibe? And then if they pass that, then they get to me then, like, I kind of care more about, like, did you pass my vibe check? Because I. I can kind of feel if you're gonna fit pretty quickly. And then from there, I get kind of really technical with stuff to see. Like, what do you really know when it comes to being able to do stuff? And then how. Resourcefulness is freaking huge in my book. Do you know about this new cool tool called Google?

[B]

Dude, if you ask me a question, you could have Googled, Yeah, I know. You're gone in a week. I don't even try and remember your name.

[A]

No, I'll just tell people, like, okay, cool. What do you think is the problem? Or like, what do you think is the solution? And if they're like, I don't know, that's why I'm here. I'm like, cool, go look it up. Like, especially this day and age where we have Google Chat GPT, I will

[B]

generally say things like, what have you done? Yeah, what have you done to try? Because I think some people, and a lot of times when I get people, they start off one way, so I don't necessarily want to write them off right away. Yeah, a lot of people are coming from situations where they've been micromanaged.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

If I'm hiring with experience. In our industry, business owners have almost no idea how to run a business and how to build a beautiful culture and how to manage and lead. And everything is under micromanagement. And I have literally heard clients say to their people, why would you spend 30 minutes looking that up? Why wouldn't you just ask me? I know the answer. Because they want to be the smartest person in the room all the time, even when it costs them money. And it costs them money because they could have been out selling and turning themselves into the bottleneck. We know this. So even if I know the answer, and it's easy for me to answer, before you came to me with this, what did you do to try and solve the problem on your own? Particularly if it's a new employee, if it's Someone who's been around. Like, if Tiago came to me with a problem or Richard, I'm not even asking, like, I'm just like, oh, here's the solution. Because I know if they didn't look it up, it's because they're swamped and they need help.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But if it's, like, someone newer, if it's Boris or it's Mijo or one of my team members that, like, hasn't been around for, like, a long, long time, what did you do to look that up? Okay, so we googled and we asked CHAT GPT. What did we ask? Chat GPT. Right. Okay. How do you think you could have reprompted that? And a lot of times they just needed to talk it out with someone. Sometimes it's like, oh, I found it and I came and asked you. Yeah, I thought that was the proactive part.

[A]

No, a hundred percent resourcefulness is big in my book. And I don't want to make it sound like I just told them to, like, f off and don't ask me

[B]

anything, but, oh, no, they need to be held accountable. So what did you. What did you try and do first? My time is important and valuable, and I hired you to take work off of my plate. So what did you do? I agree with that. What's next?

[A]

I really like people to be, like, moldable, adaptable, Especially in the agency world. Like, everything we all do is rapidly changing. And what works one minute is not going to be what works.

[B]

Right. What we know today is not going to be what we know tomorrow. Yeah.

[A]

And are you going to be stuck and romantic about the way you did things, which is, like, really hard, by hiring experienced media buyers because they're just, like, they're kind of stuck in what worked. Cool.

[B]

None of that works anymore, yo.

[A]

Yes. Stop being romantic about it. And just, like, you have to evolve or die. Those are kind of like my two big non negotiables. Like, you have to be resourceful and be willing to go and look it up first and learn from all of that. And then, like, how do you handle mistakes? Are you the kind of person that, like, tries to destroy yourself over mistakes and it's just like, the end of the world? Or will you, like, one own it and then realize it's a learning opportunity to, like, okay, let's not do that again. What can we put in place so this doesn't happen again? Potentially, that's usually a conversation that they have with me, like, what can we do so it doesn't happen again? But like, hey, it's a learning opportunity. I understand you're human. For now. My hiring is. It sounds like more vibe checks than anything where it's like, yo, are you going to fit? Do you know enough? And how teachable are you when I'm hiring?

[B]

One of the. To go to what you were just saying. How do you handle mistakes? I always ask questions like, what's the biggest mistake that happened that you were involved in in your last role? One of the human being types that I cannot stand is someone who blames everyone else the worst, that tries to throw other people under the bus, and nothing is ever their fault or their responsibility. I hired too fast. We've all done this. You absolutely need to hire someone. You found someone with incredible experience. You can't believe that they landed on your plate, and you're quick to hire without asking enough questions. Always blows up in my face, dude. I don't know why I don't learn. This just happened to me. The stress of I put it in your slack, and it would be like 10,000 things in my slack every single day. It was just like, no accountability whatsoever. No ownership over anything. Everything was always someone else's fault. Like, they're responsible for their bucket, and they would blame soccer or Richard or. And the way that they would word everything. They always tried to, like, put other people down. Like, I'm just coming to you because I'm getting conflicting answers from Richard and, like, just the tone of your voice, bitch. Like,

[A]

so true, though. So true.

[B]

I don't even want to work with you when I'm smart and I don't rush to hire someone that I think is brilliant. I really like to try and ask the question, and I don't say, what's the last mistake you made? I very intentionally say, what's the last big mistake at your last role that you were involved in? And you'll find like, Richard parked into a fault, takes responsibility. Like, today we were on a call. Where are we tracking split tests? We're not tracking them. Nearly good enough. And you just wanted to go on and on about it. Okay, where are we tracking them? No, it's just not good enough. Okay. I've done a terrible job tracking them. Okay, where are they being tracked? They're just. They're not being tracked properly. How are they being tracked?

[A]

Fuck.

[B]

How are they being tracked? And then come to find out he's taken screenshots. So we have tracked them. He just didn't have time to enter it into a spreadsheet. So let's have an assistant, enter it into a spreadsheet. But he just wants to take responsibility and ownership. And, like, I'd much rather deal with that than someone who's like, no one told me. That part really pisses me off. Particularly if you have, like, director or chief in your name. Like, no, no. So, like, you have to. You have to be capable of taking ownership. And if I'm involved, like, you were here at my house today. There was a big mishap that happened. It was really stupid. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. Whose fault? Did I say it was yours? Yep. 100. I did that right away, didn't I?

[A]

Right away.

[B]

Hey, we don't need to. This is obviously my fault, because at the end of the day, it is.

[A]

Yeah. The buck stops with us.

[B]

Right. Either I didn't hire well. Either I didn't manage well, or I missed something, because it wouldn't have happened if I would have noticed. Right. So it's my fault. We don't need to point fingers.

[A]

No.

[B]

But if your team is, like, you didn't tell me. You didn't let me know, and it's something they should have known, like, no way. And so for me, keeping the team with accountable people who have ownership will keep good people so much longer. That's just one of my little tricks, is making sure that you don't have a jerk with a lot of talent.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No.

[B]

Who's not going to take ownership or accountability or pass things off or just be a jerk.

[A]

They just dragged the entire team down. I've experienced that where. I mean, it got to the point I didn't want to be there anymore, dude.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I was just, like. So, Like, I knew. I mean, I knew leading up to that. I took too long, but it was. Again, it was a jerk who never took any accountability. And I finally just had to be like, nope, you're done. Like, this is straight up cancerous. I don't want to come into my own office and be around you. You got it.

[B]

I've absolutely had that. Yeah.

[A]

But it's.

[B]

We all have.

[A]

Yeah. And they could have all the talent in the world, but them. It's not worth destroying yourself, the culture, everywhere, because the other people notice it.

[B]

Oh, 100%.

[A]

So, like, secretly pissed off and resenting all of it.

[B]

And, why does he get away with this? And I work so hard, and then they. They start feeling unappreciated. I think I went on vacation, or I may have been going on the ignite and driven cruise. It may have been I don't remember, but I was in the process of hiring someone new for my company, and I gave it to my. Sometimes I call them the Three Stooges, and that's so crappy, because they're not the Three Stooges. They're brilliant. It's Thiago, Richard, and Saka. And they all have their strengths and they all have their faults.

[A]

Actually.

[B]

Sock is perfect. Richard and Tiago have strength and faults. Sock is going to, like, shock me one day, and it's going to be really bad. But he's like. He's just perfect.

[A]

Soccer.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Don't.

[B]

Soccer. He's just like. I can't think of one thing with him other than, like, normal human mistakes here and there, which he'll own instantly. He'll also own Richard or Thiago's mistakes rather than. And I'll know it, and I won't say anything, but he'll be like, I'm sorry, I should have called you about that. And I know that he didn't know about it. He's like a big brother, right? He's really special. But Richard and Tiago also are incredibly brilliant and great to work with, and they both have their own string of, like, faults. And what's funny is their superpowers are polar opposite.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And their weakness are polar opposite, which

[A]

is, like, perfect, though. Well, as long as they're opposites, then the other one could fill in where the other one.

[B]

That's the problem, though. We're getting there, though. Like, we're. We're getting there. Anyway, so the three of them, I kind of was like, hey, whatever you guys want to do, just pick a person and hire him if you want to do it. And when I came back, they're like, yeah, we picked someone. But, you know, I wanted to do the last interview, and Tiago got with me ahead of time, and he's like, I think he might be a little wordy for you. One thing I can't stand is word salad. Like, if I ask you a yes or no question and the words yes or no never come out of your mouth but a whole bunch of words, I instantly get upset. I do not have the time, energy, or mental bandwidth to guess what the f You are saying. Is it yes or is it no? And if you tell me that a yes or no question doesn't have a yes or no answer, I instantly hate you. And that's just how life is going to be now. Anyway. So he's like, I think this guy might be a little wordy for you. And I'm like, okay. I meet with the guy, and I instantly hate him. I mean, I hate his face. I hate that his beard is down here instead of over here. Oh, God.

[A]

Neck.

[B]

I hate that. Yes. I hate that. Every single thing I asked him, he said. So many words. I lost everything, interest, or any ability to remember my question. I just hate him. But I don't want to come in and be like, guys, I hate him. Like, the guy you picked isn't good enough. I really just. I'm like, maybe I'm just going to give him a shot. I hated him. I hated him. I hated him. I hated him. I hated him. I hated working with him. I hated every call he was on. I hated every time we had, like, a group call and you, like, what's your priorities for today? And he'd be like, well, I got this call, and his slack messages would be 9,000 words. And he was just. He was just. He was the worst. And he would use so many words and never actually say anything. I got to a point where I would start putting his otters and his messages in ChatGPT just to make sure I didn't miss anything. And Lester would come back. I'd be like, what is he trying to tell me? And Lester would be like, I don't know. This is all nonsense. My chatgpt literally wrote that to me one time. I don't know, because this is literally nonsense. And you've met my luster. He's very to the point. But anyway, miserable. Miserable experience. And now I'm avoiding him on calls, and I see that I have all these calls with him the next week, and I'm just like, oh, can I get the flu? Like, I want to get the flu. This is my company. I want to get the flu. And so I talked to Thiago, and I'm like, dude, I just don't want to get on a call with him. Thiago doesn't ignore anybody. Thiago has his faults, but one thing Thiago's super strong about is he's very kind and empathetic. So if you were to say to Tiago, hey, I need to talk about something, no matter what it is, he's gonna take his time and talk to you about it. I don't want to call him sensitive, because it sounds a little bit. He's sensitive. He's very. He's the only person that sends me messages that I ignore instantly. I was like, everyone hates him. And so I went to Richard, and he was like, I wouldn't say that. And because nobody wants to be the person that gets someone fired, right? No, I wouldn't say that. And you know, and I'm like, Richard, I think he's gonna go. And he's like, yes, he's gonna go. And then I get Saka and Sokka. I actually made him fire somebody recently just because I wanted him to get it under his belt. He wants to be a business owner someday. And. And you have to get that.

[A]

You have to be able to do that.

[B]

I needed to be someone else's decision, but I made him do it. So, like, Saka, you sound like him. Like you're giving me a word salad. What is he doing that's useful? And I'm like, all right, I'm letting him go. And so it was time to let him go. I don't even remember who I had on the call with me. It may have been Saka, but even at the very end, he wanted to have like a whole conversation. I was like, this just isn't a fit. I'm not going to change my mind. And he's like, well, let me give you a few clarifying points. And I was like, oh my God. He's like, I don't mean to drag this out. So after five minutes he hadn't said anything and I'm like, I'm just ending this call anyway. I've gone way, I've gone way too far. Way, way, way too far. But it just goes to show you, like one person can make you the business owner and not want to show up. What can happen when you put one person. And by the way, he. I talk crap. But he was actually really good at his job and, and he would come up with some really great ideas and details. No one could listen to him long enough or talk to him long enough to implement him into what we were actually working on right now. So he wasn't useful to the company, even though he had extreme talent. I got him on a call with one of our clients where he had such great ideas for her business and he probably could have taken everything to the next level for her. Like, I'm not even kidding. In one call. I'm not even kidding.

[A]

Dang.

[B]

She texts me 20 minutes after the call started. Please never make me talk to Blank again. I'm literally crawling out of my skin.

[A]

Dang. Yeah, that's a problem.

[B]

Yeah. Anyway, so I think, you know, keep good people. You have to have all good people. If one person is a jerk, including a high level manager or a great Vendor.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Or a great client who pays you a lot of money. You have to make that decision. Do I want to keep a solid team? Because, and this is so true, I may get the statistics wrong because this might not be true anymore. They recently redid the study and I haven't read it yet, but it used to be if I sit next to someone who is highly productive, my overall production will increase by 30%. If I sit next to someone who is unproductive, my overall productivity will decrease by 70%.

[A]

100%.

[B]

That's what it used to be. I know that they just redid this study, but I like your numbers and it's so true.

[A]

100%.

[B]

It's so true.

[A]

With my media buyers being around me literally in office, they're more productive and they've admitted it themselves because like, even though I don't expect that level of output as me, because I have 21 years. And it's so funny. Like I'm sure you've heard all the time where you're like, oh, I wish I, you know, I could think like you or be like you and know all this stuff, blah blah blah. It's like, Yeah, I have 21 years doing this. You guys have three and four years doing.

[B]

But hold on. I have 21 years doing this at a higher level for multiple clients with multiple products. And I've had the opportunity of. Okay, my numbers are way off. Sitting next to a high performer increases a work workers productivity by about 15%. And sitting next to a low performer decreases productivity by 30%.

[A]

I liked your original numbers. Whatever you just found is fake news.

[B]

It's. This is real. Mine was fake news. But that's okay. My team isn't in house. We're all remote. Sometimes I do wish that we all worked in the same room. Like particularly after we've worked in the same room for a week.

[A]

I bet.

[B]

When I was in London with Richard and Sokka, I was like, I want to move here and I want to get an office and I want us to do this all the time. And they like go back to America. Get out. Get out. But I really love being able to not have any guardrails on. I, you know, we use best in class for all of our software tools. I get to hire best in class. And some people use hiring globally to hire cheap labor.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is just whatever. No, I'm not even going to touch that. You get what you pay for. Yes. But I just think it's just such a beautiful opportunity. I, if I didn't do That I would never be able to. I mean, soccer. He's in Mauritius, Africa when we met. He's moving to the UK now. How would I have ever, ever, ever in a million years hired him? And honestly, like, Richard is just. My God, I don't know what I did to deserve him, but he came into our business very early on and he built shockwave with me from the, from the ground up. It wouldn't be what it is today. It wasn't. It wasn't me. It wasn't Travis. Certainly wasn't me and Travis, like, it was. I worked every day and I worked really hard every day. Travis, not so much, but. But Richard. But Richard. Richard, like this guy, he grinded from day one. And like there were times when I was like, this can't be done. And he would be the one and be like, yes, it can. This is what we're going to do. Like, we just need to make a list and work the list. This is what you say. You know, I can see both sides of the coin. One, if you can work with me in a room. The. This girl Julie I worked with, I loved, loved Julie. She was in Puerto Rico. I was in Puerto Rico at the time. We worked in the same room together. That girl picked up stuff faster than anyone I've ever worked with. She was super, super smart. She was a copywriter. She's a writer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I hired her as my executive assistant. She ended up being chief of staff. There was nothing that I could do that she couldn't do by the time she left. And I'm not. I may be able to do it probably a little bit. I wouldn't say better. With more experience behind it, she could do almost everything I could do faster. I could make higher level decisions than she could make, but once I made them, she could do almost anything I could do faster. Sometimes she wouldn't know which direction to go in. But there was nothing that I could physically do that she couldn't physically do by the time she left to become a COO somewhere else.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Me and Travis were so sad to lose her. She was fantastic. I wish we could have at that time. We couldn't afford to pay her what she was about to get paid. And she came to us with a month's notice and crying.

[A]

Oh, see, that's awesome though. Like, that's how. I mean, they're die hard fans. Like, she would probably go to war

[B]

for you right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All these years later. Right now. Right now. 100%.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we've been really Lucky to experience that with several different people. And then we've also been unfortunate in bad, bad hiring and keeping bad people on too long. Yo, we interrupted this pod to tell you to like and subscribe. What are you doing? Why haven't you liked, why haven't you subscribed? Just subscribe. What's the problem? In all seriousness, subscribe so that you get notifications every time we drop new content. Additionally, if you have not signed up for our visionary vault, what the hell? Www.specialopspodcast.com Go sign up. It's free. We never try and sell you and we're putting all kinds of stuff in there to help you with the operations of your business because we're passionate about it and we want to share operational excellence with our direct response. E commerce and online selling. Family. I had one guy, just because he was there forever. I kept him forever. And I hated him. I hated him. I hated working with him. I hated listening to him talk. I never believed anything he said.

[A]

That's not good.

[B]

No, no. But he was really good at his job.

[A]

So I have a question for you because you're main, like you're, you're virtual and I'm mainly in office. I'm curious if you could like talk on how to have a successful virtual team, even like selfishly for me, because I don't know how to do that and I know there's a level of my control freakness. But like you've been, you have a fucking amazing team and. But they're all over the world. So it's like, how do you do that successfully? Even like one selfishly and for everybody that is potentially listening or watching and like thinking about that. Because I think there's a. At least for me. And there's one thing that we all have to, I think as business owners kind of get over. Like we're not going to hire us. A lot of us keep looking. We're always looking for us. I've ran into that with agency owners where I listen to everybody, like, who we want to hire, what they can do that. I'm like, guys, we're looking for us. Are you going to go work for you? For what you pay people? We're good at what we do. We need 80%. But I guess really my main question was just like, how do you run a successful virtual team? Because selfishly, I have no idea how to do that. And you seem like an expert at it.

[B]

So one Richard and Saka. Tiago's getting there. Richard and Saka to me, I hired the tech version of me and the marketing version of me, for sure. And I don't know how I got so lucky. I just hired the younger version of myself that needed the stability of a job and had dreams for my life that I didn't necessarily want the responsibility of owning a business. For Richard, I kind of felt like he would probably end up owning a business. So I made him a partner at Shockwave. And I'll continue to give him equity at Shockwave. If something ever happens to me. Richard will be the owner of Shockwave, not. Not Gabriel Rainville. Gabriel will get a little distribution as a silent partner, A small silent partner to maintain his lifestyle. And that's about it. Saka, we're launching a product together because I don't want him to leave. So. And I know that he's at an age now where he's ready to become a business owner. So rather than lose him. So, number one, I love to hire people who aren't quite ready to own their own company, but that I can help shape and mold, watch them grow and put them in front of clients that can help them grow, if that makes sense. Mario has helped soccer grow quite a bit. Genesis, we worked with Mario, allowed soccer to stay in Genesis after.

[A]

Oh, nice.

[B]

And then Perry has absolutely helped all of us grow. Every single one of us grow and learn. And then the people that come into driven and ignite, that teach have helped us all grow. So that's kind of number one. Number one, I'm hiring pre entrepreneurs, right?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm giving them a path to partnership and ownership. And if they can stomach the growth level, then they can stay and they can own part of what I've created.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's number one. Not every single person who works for me that's going to happen with. But if that's what they're looking for and they're going to be able to contribute and make me more money, I'd be stupid not to. So that's number one. Number two, I think that people who use texts and phone calls or zoom calls without video is such a poor use of your time. We're all on video for every call.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm looking at body language for my team. If we've got sharing a screen and we're not doing anything with that screen, I make them pull it down. When me and Sokka met for the first time, I had known him for about two years and the only thing that shocked me was how tall he was because he always looks so small because of the way his camera Is right. But it did not feel like the first time we met. We both said it. It had felt like we had been in a room a hundred thousand times. It felt super familiar. There was nothing about it that didn't feel completely comfortable and normal. When I went to the Philippines and met my whole Filipino team for the first time, same thing. Some of us were kind of shocked at the size of the other ones. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, my gosh, you're so small. Oh, my gosh, you're Filipino. You're six feet. How'd that happen?

[A]

Right?

[B]

But. But we all felt very, very, very much like we knew each other. It felt very familiar.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That was number two. Number three, I share with them my goals and I share with them the decision making on the goals. And we decide how we're going to move forward together. And we decide what we own together.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I allow them to challenge the goals of the business because it's such ownership. When you help design the map.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Over getting to the treasure versus follow my map to get to the treasure. It's just so different.

[A]

I was just gonna say that there's way more buy in.

[B]

Way more buy in.

[A]

I mean, like, it's not just, hey, way more. Here's the treasure map. This is what we're gonna follow. Everybody built the treasure map, so there's so much more buy in, which then just helps with that culture.

[B]

Yeah. And we talk till we agree.

[A]

Right? Okay. Nice.

[B]

If December 31st comes and we didn't agree, we're talking January 2nd, we're talking January 5th, we're talking January 2nd. We usually spend the whole month of December deciding and plotting and planning and strategizing. But if we didn't come to an agreement and not a compromise. I hate compromise. Means someone loses.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If we don't come to an agreement on what makes sense for us, then we don't move forward. And so we do that. And then I care a lot about them and their goals for themselves. And while we don't have like a structured. What are you trying to accomplish? And let me help you try and accomplish these things. I know what my team is trying to accomplish personally in their lives.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And sometimes, and this is going to sound super narcissistic, I know what their priorities should be when they're not. And I'll kind of force it on them. And let me give you a couple of examples. Saka wants to be an agency owner. So I got a marketing agency, Tidal Wave Media, in order to own a marketing agency. Which I'll 100% give him 50% of if he proves himself capable of running it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But let's start with, let's launch an offer together and let's see, see you move through being an offer owner because you can't manage someone else's offer. So you've owned your own 100, scaled your own and got that experience. I want you to understand in the pit of your stomach how it feels when it doesn't convert.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Or when it does and it was affiliate fraud. Or when it does and the merchant accounts are going to be screwed up, it's a different animal. So I want you to feel that because now you can deal with your clients. Right. But I'm going to help him find that opportunity. And either he's going to own an agency with me or he's going to go on his own. But either way he's going to stick around a little longer because we did this thing for Richard. He desperately needs a life outside of work, his job and his career. And this company defines every aspect of who he is. And so this is where Thiago has this, like, he's got some things that drive me nuts, but this is where he is worth his weight in gold. Because he'll come to me and be like, Richard's working too much, dude. Like, this is ridiculous. Like, take a look at this. You need to look at this. Yeah, and I'll take a look at it. I'll be like, oh my God. And like, Richard, you have to sign out. Richard, are you still on at 6:00'? Clock? Richard, you live in London. Get offline. I just have 30 minute minute. You have 30 minutes to get offline.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which should. You have to take Friday off and take a three day weekend. Oh, but no, but I just have no, I need to know you're taking a three day weekend if I catch you logging in. I don't. I like, I remember having an argument with him and it was so scary for me, by the way, because I knew that if I threatened it, I had to follow through. And I knew if I had to follow through, I would rather hang myself from the tree outside than follow through. I said to him, if I catch you working this weekend, I will fire you. Please don't make me do that. Damn. Yeah, Please don't make me do that. So, you know, it's about really caring about your people even when it's not advantageous for you to put them first.

[A]

100%. Yeah. I love that.

[B]

And when it is like for Soccer. It's really advantageous for me if soccer becomes an agency owner and runs one of my businesses and gets it from doing nothing. Pennies here and there is what my marketing agency does. Like it's not nothing to write home about. But if I can help him get there and then put him over that and we can scale that.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Beautiful.

[A]

Huge.

[B]

That's super advantageous for me. Making Richard take three days off is not advantageous for me.

[A]

No, but.

[B]

But it is.

[A]

It is because he's refreshed. He's more clear headed like you need and then it shows that you actually gave a about him and his.

[B]

I think he. I think he knows that but he feels it. And there's a difference. 100 and the fourth thing is I make sure that we get together and it's not that often. I have a couple of people in the Philippines are mostly on the video editing and like data entry.

[A]

Ba side you talk like physical get togethers. Nice. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. There's right now, with the exception of one virtual assistant and one video editor, there is no one on my team. I haven't spent a lot of time with.

[A]

Hell yeah.

[B]

And so I have a video editor, Jay. He's been with me for three years. He spent an entire week with me in Manila in the Philippines. Me and my daughter in law and my husband. And we went to movies and we went to arcades and we just had a great time. And I adore Jay. He adores my husband. He calls him Gab because I can't say Gabe for some reason in the Philippines.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. So I spent time with Thiago. Tiago lives in Argentina. Richard, he won't come to my house anymore. I'm sorry Richard, but he used to come for like 30 days at a time. And so we've spent a ton of time together. Me, Sokka and Richard. I got a house in London for a week. We spent a week in London together. This October we're all going to spend a week together. And so me and Sokka Sokka can't sakas like I am. No surprises.

[A]

Yeah, no, none.

[B]

So me and soccer are planning the whole thing and Richard and Tiago have no idea what's going on. They know where they need to be. Right. And that's it. And we've got all these grand plans.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

But yeah, that's awesome. So those are the fourth components I think to having a remote team. And it's just like we're really transparent in our struggles. We're really transparent in our abilities. We have click up that we, you know, we could be better about, but we review every day together. Like, these are my tasks that I'm working on. So the right hand knows what the left hand is doing. And if the right hand is supposed to be doing something that the left hand knows about but it's not sitting there, we can alert each other. Like, there's just so many elements to running a remote team. I'd like to know how you run an in house team and don't kill them.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

Yeah, because everybody's in your office, right? Yeah, just about.

[A]

Just. Well, yeah, just about everybody. I have my moments where I want to kill them, but for me it's. I mean, there's. I like it because I lack object permanence. We're supposed to learn this as a child.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I believe it is in aspect different ADHD styles lack object permanence. So if, for me, if I don't hear from you, see you, blah, blah, blah, you don't exist.

[B]

Yeah, I'm even family.

[A]

Like my mom and dad live 15

[B]

months older like that. Out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, I'm. I'm also that way, by the way.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So like out of sight, out of mind. I haven't.

[B]

That's why we have a 9am call where I see all of my stash every day.

[A]

Yeah, see, that's probably. That was gonna be one of my follow up questions for you was how often are you guys like having meetings or calls or whatever? Even if it's just a 15 minute check in with like the entire team,

[B]

Me and soccer meet every day.

[A]

Nice. Okay.

[B]

We have what we call a morning face to face from 9 to 9:30 every morning. What are you working on? What are you doing today? I love that call. Right. I love my call with soccer like the most. He's super smart and he can call me out without ever being disrespectful or calling me out. Challenge me. I think that's a good way of putting it. And I learned from him and I know he learns from me. And it's highly productive. Highly productive. And then our morning face to face. Everybody goes over, like, what's in click up for you? Why are things past due?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And why are things missing?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Is anybody struggling with anything today? Does anybody need anything? Does anybody have any questions on Thursdays? Almost everybody. We don't have like our creative team, like our video editors on this call. We have a breaker. We take a break from working in the business to on the business oh, okay. And for 90 minutes, we start with what is your personal professional in what are you grateful about and what are you excited about?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's about 50, 50 work and personal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So everybody kind of knows, like, Tiago's baby took her first steps, or Richard finally got his bathroom remodeled, or Emma is excited because she's going on vacation next week or, you know, whatever. That's our meeting cadence. And then I have a stand up with Richard weekly where him and I connect. I think it's every Wednesday. Me and Tiago have every other week, but it's for a much longer block. And then I have my COO coaching call that Tiago's on twice a month.

[A]

Yeah. Makes sense. Especially for lacking object permanence. If I was to go virtual. But no, like, in person. I mean, they can literally walk in my office. It was interesting because I had to actually, like, to a degree, force them, like, yo, come in my office if you need something. My door is open. But I don't want to bug you. You can come in. Don't be scared. They weren't scared.

[B]

I think they were scared. You're kind of.

[A]

Yeah. But the. I like it because if I need something or if I need to talk about something, I can literally just like walk 10ft to the left and it's

[B]

too late in the day. I don't want to ping anybody, but I could literally ping any one of my staff and be on a call with them within five minutes. I don't want to do that at 4 o' clock in the evening.

[A]

Let's not do that to them. But.

[B]

Yeah, but I. I could ping any one of my staff and be on a call with them in minutes and on a video call.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we only do video calls.

[A]

Sounds like I could literally have done a better job. Or maybe I was bad hiring. I don't know. Probably Combo of both.

[B]

No, I think. I think it's a learning thing. If I think about the people who are on my team, I don't think they came that way. I think it's a cultural thing. Right. And so when the culture demands that and like my first thing when I. That I say when someone's not on camera. Vendor, employee, doesn't matter. Me too. Yeah, I can't see you. Where'd you go? Oh, I don't. Did you not realize this is a video call? Would you like me to reschedule for when you're free? And if they're like, oh, I don't have a camera. It just depends on who they are, if I'll tolerate it. But most of the time, I'm just done with you immediately.

[A]

Oh, if I can't read your body language, I can't.

[B]

I'm the same. I'm the same. I need to know how you're sitting with this. I need to read what's happening. I'm the same.

[A]

Yeah. There's little movements that people make that you can read everything. And I guess that's what's nice about, like, in person. I mean, some of my people are off like in Colombia and Argentina. I could probably meet with them more. But the in person people, it's really not that hard. Like, I don't want to kill them too much because we've got pretty good systems in place and, like, the resourcefulness. I would rather them walk in and talk to me while I'm doing something and like, ask a question for five minutes, then ping me, get on a freaking Google Meets or resume and then have to do that and then get off and then try to get back in the workflow state. I can semi multitask.

[B]

I can't. Yeah, see, and most people can't multitask. They just think they can.

[A]

No, that's why I say semi.

[B]

I really. I really like single task action.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I will not just ping my people and be like, hey, let's hop on a call. Unless it's something's kind of urgent, I gotta get on with the client. And I need to understand, like, you heard me say this to Richard. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition. I need to understand so that I can explain it. I don't necessarily know if, like, the in person thing or the remote thing even matters, to be honest. The thing for me is I really like being able to hire from anywhere.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I really like that. And like Boris, for example. If we were all in an office, in a few months he'd be gone because he's moving across the world. But big move. Right? But it's not a big deal to me. I'll still see him every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And to me, there's not much difference there.

[A]

Yeah, I was just thinking about it too. There's a little more freedom as well. I do that in your office. Yeah.

[B]

Why not with your people?

[A]

I have my own office. They have their own offices. Don't come in my office.

[B]

You just said your door is always open. They can come in your office.

[A]

It's. I warned them. They're about to come in and go, yeah, hold on. I farted. You might not want to Come in here for a few minutes. Like, give it a little bit to dissipate.

[B]

Plus, my office looks really clean. You've been in my office, you know, my office is not clean. It's a cyclone.

[A]

It looks like an office.

[B]

It's a cyclone. But the shot looks super clean, very clean. Yeah, the shot looks very clean. It's not clean. It's like there's everywhere. Intentionally.

[A]

Yes. Yeah. You should see my office. It's the same way.

[B]

Yeah, I imagine. I imagine. I actually cleaned my office yesterday morning. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I. I mean, I didn't clean it, so I kind of moved things around and I wiped the desk because I sneezed all over it. And, like, the speckles of coffee were everywhere from, like, two weeks ago. And I was like, huh, Nobody cleaned this yet. I guess I should.

[A]

I bet I go back to my office Thursday. They will have cleaned my office and moved things around, which is the worst.

[B]

Did they move things around?

[A]

So they haven't done it since the last time they moved things, which is, like, two cleans ago. Not that I asked them to clean, but they just nicely will clean my office because I just get, like, scattered and. But they move stuff. And I was like, okay, I thank you for everything you did. This is.

[B]

No, it's not how I responded.

[A]

Don't ever move my again.

[B]

No. Gabel occasionally come in and be like, babe, we need to clean this. And so he'll work with me to. I'll pick things up, and he'll clean, and then I put them back down. No one touches my office. The only thing that anyone ever did. And this was like. God, I want to say five years ago, probably four or five years ago, a friend of mine came into town from Canada for my birthday because I had spent one year not drinking. So to prove that I wasn't an alcoholic. This is really funny. To prove that I wasn't an alcoholic, I spent one year sober.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

And then. So it was from my birthday to my birthday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it was my 44th birthday. I got high on shrooms.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

For the first time ever in my life. And, like, I decided while I was on shrooms that I needed to not drink for one year.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I did. I. It wasn't even hard. It was the easiest. Easiest. Like, instantly. I did not touch alcohol.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But it was like, we're counting down the days to my birthday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my friends were. I didn't really care at all. So they all come to town for my birthday because Now I'm turning 45 so I'm 48, so it wasn't that long ago. Three years ago. Wow, that feels like longer. So we have this big party and like, people fly in. And it's two days before Thanksgiving. My birthday is the 22nd of November. And so it was a Tuesday. And so on Tuesday night we have a party. And Kristen Carnarcion flew in from Mexico, him and his wife from Mexico for Thanksgiving, which is so weird to me, but whatever. Justin Mikey flew in, is the owner of Blastable. He flew in from Canada, from Kelowna, Canada. Took five flights to come to my birthday. I had Russ Tucker. Like all these people came from all over the place. And then a few people from Austin, like David Gonzalez came as you know, it was really nice. So we got all these people there and I get ripped in like an hour. I'm trash. And I got to go to bed. I'm not even kidding. So I go to bed and Wednesday is the day before Thanksgiving. And as you know, that is the most important day of the year because it's your last opportunity to get everything ready for Black Friday. And so I wake up and I wake up late. I usually start my day at like, back then, I usually started my day at 5am and that's when I started my work day. I don't. I don't do that anymore. I don't start until like 7:30. I take a walk first and I actually take care of myself. But this is like when I didn't care if I died. And so I wake up and it's like 5:15 and oh my God, I only have a short amount of time. And I like run to my office and they had wrapped every single thing in my. My keyboards, my monitors, they tape balloons all over everything. My chairs wrapped. My desk is wrapped. They have wrapped every single thing in my office. I. They thought they did this really nice thing. I lost my whole mind. Dude, I was so mad. One of my employees the time was in from New Jersey. He had flown in for my birthday and he was like flying out that morning. So comes downstairs and he's like, what do you think, Emma? And I'm like, I'm gonna kill you. What do you mean? He's like, I kind of thought you might be really mad about this, but your friends. Like my friend Kevin was in town and so he came in from like five hours away in Longview. And so I'm like, what the fuck is this? I just like lose my mind over this. Absolutely lost my mind. I can't stand when people touch My office either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was a really long story for such a simple animal.

[A]

But I love it like that ending of that because I've done that to people where I've wrapped everything in their office. And then you know how they got me back? They filled my office with 600 balloons. I'm six foot tall.

[B]

My anger would explode all the balloons instantly.

[A]

And I had a meeting. So I show up to my office

[B]

and there's 600 balloons.

[A]

There's 600 balloons in my room with my door closed. I'm six foot tall, almost six one. And the balloons are like the balloon layers taller than me. So my computer screen, everything's totally covered.

[B]

What happened to buying someone flowers? Like, what is wrong with people?

[A]

I don't know. It's all about pranks now. So then I threatened to fill their trucks up with marbles.

[B]

Sand. It's cheaper.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Sand is way cheaper and way harder

[A]

to clean up than marbles.

[B]

Yeah. You can get a cubic ton of sand for 1500 bucks. Ask me how I know.

[A]

I. I think I have a feeling I know how you know. I've heard of other things you send to people.

[B]

I do have fun with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was in retaliation. I used to own a Honda Fit many years ago. I was the COO of this commercial H vac company and they moved my Honda Fit with a forklift.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And made me think it got stolen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it actually bent my air conditioning and caused the car did not have air conditioning anymore. I was brand new.

[A]

So pissed.

[B]

So I had a cubic ton, I believe it was called a cubic ton of sand put in the back the bed of their Ford F250 that had a lift kit.

[A]

That's so much sand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

They didn't know it was in there and they got pulled over cuz the sand was like pouring out as they were driving. They got a ticket. He was pretty pissed.

[A]

Karma. They ruined your air conditioner.

[B]

So this has been a fun talk about teams and we went all over the place. Super adhd. We didn't pay attention to any outline. So I hope you guys had as fun listening to it as we did filming it. The whole two of you that will listen to this. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Special Ops Podcasts. Go ahead and head over to www.specialopspodcast.com and sign up for our visionary vault there. We have tons of courses, checklists, all kinds of stuff to help you become operationally excellent. And we never try and sell you anything. Me and my boy Mitch, we made you a checklist for managing teams. We have one for remote and one for in house. Let us know in the comments. Which one do you think is better? Mitch, thank you so much as always. This is fantastic.

[A]

Yeah, thanks for having me. This was good times.