James Farrell (2:14)

Dig in.

Emma Rainville (2:14)

But I'd like for first, for the few people that are my listeners that don't know who you are, just to kind of give a quick background who you are, what you do and why I'm so excited to have you here.

James Farrell (2:26)

Yeah, awesome. Well, my background, you know, I started, I started in the corporate world. I was 10 years in the corporate world, running big teams. I was in a really big bank helping run digital strategy for that bank and realized that I wanted to be out on my own. Sort of partnered with a company based out of New York, and we were doing basically digital strategy and analytics consulting for big corporates. And that was great. And I kind of was like, I still felt like I wanted to work with people who are more gritty. And so I started working with smaller companies, startups, and more entrepreneurial owner operator companies and things like that. And really what I found was that I had all this marketing experience from the corporate days and just doing my own things. I've always had a side hustle for as long as I can remember. And I was like, wait a second. Like, it's not. It's not enough to just help people figure out how to get new customers because most people don't know what to do with the business once they have it. And. And I, I think I was. My first case study of that. I had a. You know, after I kind of ended that partnership that we're selling into those big corporates, I started my own agency and I was inundated with work. And I was like, man, like, I don't. I don't know what I'm doing in terms of, like, managing my team, you know, getting help, delegating, like, all these things that are important. I was like, I'm working 80 hours a week and I'm pretty miserable right now because I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel. And it was really.

Emma Rainville (4:01)

And you weren't working in your passion, right?

James Farrell (4:03)

No, I wasn't working in my passion at all. At any level. Right. Like, all I really want to do is like, hey, like, here's a great campaign. Like, here's how we're going to acquire customers. This is how we need to sell something. And instead I'm, you know, like, hey, did you do this task following up with people? And I was absolutely miserable. And so I, weirdly enough, I was like, oh, there was something wrong with me that I don't know how to do this. And so I didn't know that a lot of people had this problem. And I went to work to fix it for myself and, you know, slowly kind of developed systems and things. I have an engineering background. I was like, very systematic and structured and kind of got myself out of that situation and had things working really well. And. And I started talking about it and people were like, wait a second, like, I have that problem too. I was like, oh, no kidding. Let me show you what I did to fix it. And then before I know it, people were turning to me saying, well, how do I put these systems in place in my business and how do I delegate and how do I hire people? And I was like, wow, like, you know, two years ago I was underwater and I couldn't even figure any of this out and now people are asking me for help with it. So kind of started out of necessity for me in order to grow my business. And I think a lot of people are like, oh, James is like a systems guy and, and I'm a systematic thinker. But it was really like, how do we get all this stuff out of the way so we can make more money? Love it, you know?

Emma Rainville (5:24)

Love it. Yeah, love it. Phenomenal. I'm gonna jump in now. Is that cool?

James Farrell (5:28)

Of course. Let's go.

Emma Rainville (5:29)

I've got it. I've got a whole bunch for you. I'm really excited. I'm a systems person, I know, not so much a marketing person. I got a little bit in me.

James Farrell (5:35)

But it's coming out from time to time. Once in a while we're doing a pod.

Emma Rainville (5:41)

I think it's operations for podcast, but sure, whatever. What does it mean to have a self managed team and why is it essential for scaling a business? And you kind of just went over that with the intro, but I just want you to bring it all together for us because when people hear self managed team, their idea of what that means and what that actually means is not usually plugged in. Particularly people who listen to me, visionary entrepreneurs who have never had a job before.

James Farrell (6:10)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think what it is and what it isn't is really important. I think a lot of people have this sort of pipe dream that they're never going to have to touch anything on a day to day basis and they, what they wind up doing is they wind up abdicating, right. They're like, oh, I, I don't, I don't want to do that. And they just like toss it over the fence to somebody else and hope that that person catches it. And that's irresponsible. Right. Not only does it not work, but, you know, it's not setting those people up for success. And so having a self managed team isn't necessarily about just getting everything off of your plate and hoping that the team gets things done. It's about setting things up in a way that they can be successful and in a way that you have leverage on your time. Right. Because that's what this is about this is about when I come in, getting leverage on the time that I'm spending on something so that I can be making decisions that require my input, not the ones that don't require my input. And I'm not the one chasing everything and making sure that it's getting done. My team needs to be responsible for that. An analogy, and I actually wrote an article, maybe we could link to it. In the show notes on entrepreneur.com was this concept of a six inch putt. And I got this from one of my first executive coaches I had when I was in the corporate world. And it's basically this idea that your team is there to do the heavy lifting, right? Like if it's a golf analogy. And so if I'm golfing and I get to the tee box and I drive the shot and then I don't hit it well and I hit it in the woods and then I have to go in the woods and I have to hit it out and then onto the fairway and then up to the green and everything. All that can be done by other people. Like I want, I want to get the ball when it's six inches from the cup, right? I want people to be like, okay, here's the situation. Here's the three, you know, three or whatever, how many options we evaluated. Here's the consequence of these three options. We think we should go with this option. What do you think? That's a six inch putt, right? Not hey, James, the house is on fire. What do you want to do? Right? Like that's a completely different way of managing things. And so the idea of having a self managed team is one where these 6 inch putts are being served up when it's necessary and that people are running, running in their lanes and doing what they're supposed to be doing so that I'm not having to chase them and follow up with them and you know, that sort of thing.

Emma Rainville (8:36)

I, I love the analogy. I love the story that you tell because it's very easy to understand. It's when you say it in practical, logistical words, they don't quite get the picture. So that was great. That was probably the best I've ever heard anybody explain it. I'd like to talk to you about when people, when you see businesses transitioning from it's usually micromanaged teams to self managed teams, I have found that the obstacles that I have faced with them have a lot to do with loss.

James Farrell (9:08)

Of control for sure.

Emma Rainville (9:10)

And they don't want to micromanage their team. But Then they inherently do. I'd love for you, and you've done this way more than I think anybody I know. Where do you see businesses struggle the most when transitioning to that self managed team? What is, what is the. That you've eaten that they can take and not have to eat?

James Farrell (9:32)

Yeah, for sure. I mean, first of all, it is a struggle because one you're dealing with, you're dealing with people is inherently difficult. And I think you got to just like understand that that's part of the game. Like, if you're going to grow past a certain level, you, you have to be able to leverage other people and you have to learn how to organize them and manage them and all that other stuff. And it's hard.

Emma Rainville (9:54)

Right, Steve Jobs. What was the Steve Jobs saying? I think I heard you tell this a long time ago. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go with others, go with others somewhere.

James Farrell (10:05)

I think it's like, I don't know where it's originally attributed to.

Emma Rainville (10:08)

I think it's Steve Jobs. I think I heard you say it and I looked it up because it was really smart and it was Steve Jobs. But yeah, all right, we'll credit Steve.

James Farrell (10:14)

He was a smart guy. But I think the like, if I can like kind of peel things back, I would say that one of the biggest issues that people face is they're not clear on what good looks like. And so if I, let's say I hire a new executive assistant or a new operations manager, new marketing manager, whoever, right? Any name a role, we need to align on what success is in that role. And, and when there's micromanaging happening, I think it's usually a proxy for not having been clear enough on what does good look like. And so if we get clear enough on what good looks like at the outset, even before, like, we should be clear what does good look like before I go hire somebody so that when I'm looking for them, not just what.

Emma Rainville (10:59)

The, what is the job? I like that. Not just what the job is that they're gonna do, but what does a good job look like?

James Farrell (11:05)

What does good look like?

Emma Rainville (11:06)

And I love that.

James Farrell (11:07)

And that's actually one of the questions that we always ask an interview when we're talking to somebody. Hey, if you're successful in this job, what does good look like for you? Right? And it's, and it's a fantastic question because if you're not aligned on that vision of success, you know, why just get somebody who's aligned instead of trying to train somebody who's not aligned. Right.

Emma Rainville (11:26)

Or, or even put somebody that knows exactly what to do who's not aligned. I'd rather train someone who's aligned every time.

James Farrell (11:32)

Totally. Yeah, 100%.

Emma Rainville (11:33)

That's so good. That's so good.

James Farrell (11:35)

Right. And so, so I think that's, that's the first thing. I think it's starting with the, you know, like the Stephen Covey thing. Right. Begin with the end in mind. We're beginning with the end in mind, saying, well, what does good look like for this position? And now with that in mind, I can have an onboarding plan, I can have a ramp up plan, I can have a training and development plan, I can have a performance management of that person aligned around those key things that help me understand what good looks like. Right. It's very difficult to say this person's doing a good job if we don't know what a good job actually looks like.

Emma Rainville (12:09)

That's so good. I really like that a lot. I really like that a lot. That's. It's not often that someone comes up with like a really good interview question and I'm like, oh, that's nice. I'm adding that, so I'll take it. Congratulations. What are the costs at failing to delegate effectively and create a self managing team?

James Farrell (12:28)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (12:28)

What are the costs involved?

James Farrell (12:30)

Well, it costs you, I mean, I would argue it costs you significant amount of your own time, which is the only finite resource that we have. Right. If I can't figure this out, then I'm involved in everything. One, so it's costing me time. Two, if I'm involved in everything, am I really involved in the things that are going to push the business forward and make me the most money? Probably not, because there's a lot of stuff that needs to get done that's not revenue driving.

Emma Rainville (12:54)

Right.

James Farrell (12:55)

And if I can't have people who are working on those things, even revenue driving things shouldn't all just be done by you. Right. You should have team members that are driving revenue as well. And so I think the, you know, to put a dollar figure on it is difficult, but I think it's conservatively depending on the type of business, your ambition, all that, it's hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars to not figure out how to leverage and get the most out of people.

Emma Rainville (13:20)

I say this all the time. What's the only thing that you own that's priceless?

James Farrell (13:24)

Your time.

Emma Rainville (13:25)

Your time. Yeah, your time. You never, Steve Jobs couldn't buy more.

James Farrell (13:30)

Nobody gets any more.

Emma Rainville (13:31)

Nobody gets anymore.

James Farrell (13:32)

And yesterday, like five minutes ago, it's done, it's over.

Emma Rainville (13:35)

You never get it back. Yeah. I think it's so important to really think about it that way. When you're in your zone of genius. There we go. What is the dollar amount that you're earning your business, and then what is the dollar amount that you're paying these people that could be doing these things if you enabled them, encouraged them, and developed them into doing those things?

James Farrell (13:53)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (13:53)

And, and that calculation alone is astronomical. But the real calculation is if I can't get my time back and I have to spend my time doing those things anyway, I've just traded that time in for time I could have spent with my family, time I could have spent on my hobbies, time I could have spent doing the things that I love. I can't get that time back.

James Farrell (14:13)

Yeah, time. Time you can spend learning how to become better at the thing that you're uniquely good at. One of the ways that I look at it is there's an intersection I think that most people should spend the vast majority of their time in. And it's things that grow their business, things that they're really good at and things that they enjoy. And if you can zero in on that, you know, kind of three part Venn diagram in the center there, you're not only going to be happy and, you know, kind of, I would argue, fulfilled, but you're also going to be making more money. And anything that's outside of that zone are the things that you should be delegating and handing off to other people. Right. And I think you mentioned like the gap, you know, I, my consulting rate is $3,000 an hour. Right. And so if that's where my time is best spent, anything that's less than $3,000 an hour, I'm making margin on. Right, right. And you know, one of the things that I've always believed is that if you can buy your time back at a discount, you should buy your time back at a discount. And I'm constantly trying to figure out how can I buy more of my time back at a discount?

Emma Rainville (15:18)

Love it.

James Farrell (15:18)

And how can I increase the value of my time so that I can pay more for that? I can pay more and still get a discount.

Emma Rainville (15:25)

I love that. That's, that's great. That's great. I was looking through some of the stuff you have and I would love it. If you wouldn't mind, can you walk us through the four levels of the delegation framework and how that works?

James Farrell (15:40)

Did some homework, huh?

Emma Rainville (15:41)

Of course I did.

James Farrell (15:43)

Yeah. So I think that. So there's. So it's. There's an acronym and we joke because it's D, A double D, whatever. Right.

Emma Rainville (15:51)

But I saw it. It didn't even compute. You said it.

James Farrell (15:55)

Well, Yada named it.

Emma Rainville (15:56)

Of course she did. That makes total sense.

James Farrell (15:59)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (15:59)

So Yada is. We've been talking about her. Yada is James's significant other's partner in business and in life. And she's got the best set of double Ds I've seen yet. So it makes total sense. But go ahead.

James Farrell (16:12)

Yeah, so the. So first thing is looking at the first D is delete, right. What. What doesn't have to be done. And I think it's really a good exercise because just like, you know, if you move from one house to the next house and you do that a few times, invariably you're like, why do we keep moving this stuff with us? Right. Like, why don't we like, get rid of this? I remember I had these like box of magazines or something that was like, oh, I want to keep these. And after moving them two or three times, it's like, I got. I just got to get rid of these. Right. And I think every, every stage or iteration of your business, you have stuff that's legacy, that kind of comes over. Right. And it, and it creates a lot of operational drag and a lot of mental.

Emma Rainville (16:52)

For no reason.

James Farrell (16:53)

For no reason.

Emma Rainville (16:53)

For no reason.

James Farrell (16:54)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (16:54)

Other than we don't know how to throw away.

James Farrell (16:56)

Yeah, exactly. And.

Emma Rainville (16:57)

And it's including. Including the baggage in our brain, mostly. Yeah.

James Farrell (17:01)

Right. And that baggage in the brain gets, you know, could be. I mean, it could be from, you know, a couple processes that we're doing all the way to a team member or team members that really don't even align with the future of the business. Right. And.

Emma Rainville (17:14)

But you don't know. You don't know how to let go.

James Farrell (17:16)

Right, right, exactly. Exactly. And so you're just kind of dragging this stuff around all the time. And so the very first thing with delegation is you need to take a hard look at who are we today and where are we going now? Not what's all this stuff that we've accumulated in the past, like things that we've been doing and people and all that sort of stuff. And if it's not aligned with the current objectives and the future objectives, it really should be deleted. Right. And you know, that's. That fit. That fit into the acronym Delete places and things 100. Right. Like, don't keep it Right. It's. It's drag.

Emma Rainville (17:47)

Right.

James Farrell (17:48)

And, and so that's the first thing. The, the second thing is automation. Anything. Okay. So now we've passed the test of. I'm going to get rid of it now. This is something that's important. I'm going to keep it. And I think the first, the first question you ask at this stage is can it be automated? Right. And we're living, we're living in this amazing time right now.

Emma Rainville (18:09)

What a time.

James Farrell (18:10)

Right.

Emma Rainville (18:10)

Where live like 10 years ago to be alive.

James Farrell (18:14)

Who could have even thought about this?

Emma Rainville (18:15)

Could have sunk.

James Farrell (18:16)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (18:17)

Like really?

James Farrell (18:17)

Yeah, totally. And, and I think that just five.

Emma Rainville (18:22)

Years ago, this was unimaginable.

James Farrell (18:23)

Three years ago I was, I was watching an interview that the. Sam Altman did with this guy from the New York Times just two or three nights ago. It's two years since Chad GPT was released.

Emma Rainville (18:34)

Yep.

James Farrell (18:34)

Right. And when we're recording this today, so two years and two months ago, people were working on AI, people were working on.

Emma Rainville (18:42)

It was garbage.

James Farrell (18:43)

Nobody was interacting with it on the level that they're interacting with.

Emma Rainville (18:46)

It was garbage. It was garbage. I went to, not to get off track, but I went to. I, I just want, it's so good. I went to Affiliate Summit west in March and in November, Chat GPT, you know, came out. Came out.

James Farrell (18:59)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (18:59)

People were messing with Claude and Chat GPT and, and all that. Jasper, not quad Jasper and, and ChatGPT, but. Because it came out. But it, there were tons of other things before and it was all trash. And I remember copywriters that we had would constantly be trying to use it to speed up and like, what a world we live in. Look how different this is. I don't have any copywriters on staff. There's no need to. Yeah, there's no need to because I don't read my emails. I'm not kidding.

James Farrell (19:28)

Max me, I didn't even know about that.

Emma Rainville (19:31)

Max AI.me. max AI me. It's an extension of my Google Chrome. I ask it to scan my emails. I get emails and I've got like 13 email threads.

James Farrell (19:41)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (19:41)

By the time I open them, I'm like, what? I open up. Max Key takeaways, action steps, you know, create draft response. I read that really quickly. Yep, sounds about right. It'll tell people to do the things in the. Like people are asking me, who should do this, who should do that? And it'll come up with it. I have to change it a little bit. But I don't read these emails anymore anyway. I Want to get back to what we're talking about.

James Farrell (20:07)

That's such a great, it's such a great example though. Yeah, it's such a great example because. Okay, automation, you know, the third step is delegate, just like preview, but automation. Why would you have a person doing that if it could be automated? Right, right. There's no reason to do it. And if, and if you look.

Emma Rainville (20:24)

But it might get unplugged, it might not work one day.

James Farrell (20:27)

No, we'll deal with that. Well, whoever I hire might get sick. Right, right. They might call in.

Emma Rainville (20:31)

That's a lot more likely, by the way.

James Farrell (20:33)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (20:34)

That they'll make a mistake or they'll not show up or they'll get another job. It's way more likely you just plug it back in if it unplugs for some reason.

James Farrell (20:39)

Yeah. Or find another comparable solution or something. Right, right. And I think that, you know, if you look at the average business, one of the biggest costs on their income statement is labor. Right. And if you're not thinking about how do I streamline this, how do I, you know, and people are like, oh, like I can hire, you know, somebody. We want to buy our time back at a discount but we don't want to be stupid with that purchase. Right. And so why wouldn't you get the most cost effective solution to that particular thing? And I think, and it's literally right now changing on a day by day basis what can be automated. And, and there's going to be companies that are really embrace that and they're going to like main, they're going to open up their margins, they're going to be like, have more opportunities and there's going to be other companies that don't embrace this automation idea and they're going to be behind and their margins are going to be squeezed because the cost of labor is going up because like you know, inflation and all these other things, people need to be paid more. And it's really an, it's a strategic thing to do to look at, delete the stuff that I don't want, automate the stuff that's there. First and foremost, my first line of defense. Anything that needs to be done should be automation. So that's, obviously I have feelings about that but, but that's really, that's the, that's the second step in that framework. And the third step is delegate to a person. And you know, these, these are the things that, going back to what I said before about the, you know, the, the zone of, the zone of Jesus.

Emma Rainville (22:14)

That'S Going to be a thing now.

James Farrell (22:15)

It is. Yeah.

Emma Rainville (22:16)

Right.

James Farrell (22:16)

The zone of genius. The things that you're really good at, things that move the needle and the things that you enjoy. Those are the things that we're saving for the last D, which is do it. Delegate is all the other stuff that can't be automated that doesn't fit into that. Right. And that's where that fits. And just as like an aside for people that struggle to delegate, I think there's really one. What does good look like for this thing to. What are we asking somebody to do? Who is doing it? When is it done? When does it need to be done by? Right. If you go back and you look at, like, anytime that you've asked somebody to do something and it doesn't come back. Right. One of those three things was out of whack. Right. And so it's like. And it's really basic stuff, but we just don't take the time to think about a lot of times.

Emma Rainville (22:59)

Good. That's so good. I love that. I love that. This is really great. I'd like to talk. I'd like to shift just a little bit. And I'd like to talk about. There's this, like, trust factor that happens with delegation. And so I've seen over and over and over again visionary entrepreneurs. I'm going to delegate everything. From never delegating anything and micromanaging, I'm going to delegate everything. And they don't build trust first. So talk to me about what role trust plays in the delegation factor and then how to, how to achieve that so that you can then delegate to me and then go to sleep at night.

James Farrell (23:39)

Yeah, well, I think trust is earned over time. It's not. It's not something that you just have on day one. Humans build trust, right? Trust is built. And, and it's built through repetition and consistency. And so when you're bringing somebody on or, you know, you're trying to figure out this delegation thing, one, if you're not great at it, don't delegate everything all at once. Like, don't be dumb about it, you know, Oh, I. I've gone from not delegating anything to now I have this savior coming into my business who's going to fix everything that's ever been wrong. And, and I'm going to give them the keys to my finances, too, so that they can do outgoing payments. Right. It would be like, it would be absurd to not have safety and control and things like that. But I think at the, at the onset, the touch points need to be closer together. Right. And if you've defined what good looks like, then, okay, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna take a look at that. Maybe once a week, maybe once every two weeks. And then over time and certainly depending on the seniority level of the role and all these other variables. There's a lot of. It depends in here, but essentially I don't. I want to keep a closer eye on things until I know that things are actually working and moving in the direction that I want.

Emma Rainville (24:53)

I want to argue with you a little bit here, but not really because I know what you're saying, but I also know how people are going to take what you're saying.

James Farrell (25:00)

Okay, go ahead.

Emma Rainville (25:01)

You don't want to micromanage the stuff that people are doing. You want to get eyes on it consistently. Consistently, yes. So here's something that I see a lot here. James, can you do this for me? You get this done. Hey, is it done yet? You said it was due on Thursday. Well, it's Tuesday. What are you doing that you didn't work on this today?

James Farrell (25:21)

Right.

Emma Rainville (25:22)

That's the worst, by the way. Or I noticed that you're doing this. It's not done yet, but let me shit all over it right now. And so, so that you don't waste your time and get it right. You're not allowing that person to create their own creative process or. I am so disappointed in this work. This is not how I would have done it. Or I'll do one final one. What were you thinking?

James Farrell (25:47)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (25:48)

Right. So I just want to. I want you to quantify for me what overseeing it and looking, because I want to make sure that people understand everything that I just said. Create someone who will never make a decision, who will never try, and you're just going to take it over anyway. So I'm just going to get it done the best I can as quickly as I can. Put in zero effort.

James Farrell (26:06)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (26:07)

So can you quantify for me when you're saying you want to keep a close eye.

James Farrell (26:10)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (26:11)

What that means to you.

James Farrell (26:12)

Yeah. So. So let's take. Let's take like a project manager, for example. Okay. If I'm bringing on a project manager and I want to make sure that that project manager is doing a good job, first of all, we will have defined what is doing a good job look like. Well, for project managers, delivering projects on time. Right. And on budget and, you know, we have visibility on resources and all that sort of thing. And so this new project manager, I'm going to say, okay, Great. I expect to have a check in with you once a week, once every two weeks. And in that check in, I want you to give me a snapshot of where our projects are. We ahead of schedule, behind schedule. We on schedule. What are the risks that are going to prevent us from hitting our schedules? All of those things. Right. I'm not going to go into Monday.com and start monkeying around with tasks. I'm going to have that check in Monday guy. I've used everything under the sun. You're using ClickUp.

Emma Rainville (27:07)

I love.

James Farrell (27:07)

I think I've heard you talk about click.

Emma Rainville (27:09)

I love Click up. I love the AI tools in ClickUp. We'll get into that.

James Farrell (27:12)

Another. Yeah, a whole other conversation.

Emma Rainville (27:15)

We should do a workshop.

James Farrell (27:15)

Here's how you know I'm not super involved in it because I've no. I no longer care. I want.

Emma Rainville (27:22)

I'm always gonna care.

James Farrell (27:23)

I won't.

Emma Rainville (27:24)

I'm always gonna care. I'm always gonna care about my project. I'm, I'm, I'm a COO though, right? Like, I use it myself. I have to. So I'm always going to care. But you don't even care. I'm like, hey, whatever the team wants to use.

James Farrell (27:33)

That's right. The team likes us. Keeps them on track. Like, I'm good.

Emma Rainville (27:36)

But go back to what you're saying. You're not going to go into Monday.

James Farrell (27:39)

So I'm not going to go to Monday.com Monday or like, I, I've a lot of people, like, long time ago, I was teaching them how to use Trello. Like I've done all of.

Emma Rainville (27:46)

I started in Trello, right? Those cards were great, dude.

James Farrell (27:49)

They were great. I wish I would have built Trello like 15 years ago, man. That was. Anyway, I'm expecting an output from this person's work and we agree on when I'm going to look at that output. And I'm not going in there while the sausage is being made. I'm. Well, you said the sausage is going to be made on Thursday and is it ready for me to taste it? Right. Okay, let's taste it. I think there's a difference between that and what you just described. And then there's also the feedback cycle which you just talked about. Right? So if something isn't good one. Did you define it clearly enough? What needed to happen?

Emma Rainville (28:27)

What's the definition of done?

James Farrell (28:28)

What is the definition?

Emma Rainville (28:29)

You've heard me say that all I.

James Farrell (28:30)

Have and I fully support that. Right. And that goes hand in hand with what does good look like, when is it done? When it looks good.

Emma Rainville (28:37)

Marrying those Two things.

James Farrell (28:38)

Yeah. Tomorrow, 100.

Emma Rainville (28:40)

Love them.

James Farrell (28:40)

Yeah. I'm so glad you linked those together, because I think it's important. And. And so if it's not good. Was I unclear in what I asked for? And if I feel like I was clear, then I really need to understand where was there a breakdown? Not as a criticism, more as a discovery of how are we going to make sure that this doesn't keep happening? How is this not going to happen again? Right. If it keeps happening and I'm convinced that I'm clear, then we have an issue.

Emma Rainville (29:05)

Right.

James Farrell (29:06)

Right. But if I haven't been clear and then I just take it back, I'm still doing the work and I haven't invested in this person so that they can actually give me leverage.

Emma Rainville (29:17)

I really like to. When. When they do it differently. First of all, what I've learned, and I struggle with this a lot. If I seek to understand rather than just lose my. And you have known me for a while, I go from perfectly fine to.

James Farrell (29:30)

Off the freaking, which is very exciting to watch.

Emma Rainville (29:33)

Nuts Right Back down again four seconds later. So it's interesting, but I try really hard, actually. I have a guy, Tiago, who just as an exercise for me, has been phenomenal to have on my team because he's very capable of calling me out and just being like, can you understand why I did it this way first? And so I've learned to shut up. Because what I've learned is when I don't attack and I try and understand, a lot of times it's because it's more effective, more efficient. And just because it doesn't look like the way I would do it, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. It just is wrong from my perspective, because this isn't what I asked for. So sometimes it's wrong.

James Farrell (30:09)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (30:10)

But sometimes it's just different. And because they didn't ask me to deliver it differently, I. I didn't seek to understand. So I've been spending more time on that. But the first thing I want to know is if it's wrong, if it's actually wrong. I want to. Without saying, like, what's wrong with your brain? Which is my favorite saying, or. Or what?

James Farrell (30:28)

Do you have a brain?

Emma Rainville (30:29)

I do say that. You've heard me say that, too. Do you have a freaking brain cell between you? But instead of saying that saying, I'd like to understand the thought process from when we discuss this to here, just so I can understand what changed and what made this adjustment or whatever, I want to be very open to hearing their thought process. But if I notice that I'm having those conversations over and over and over again, I think they're important to have because you'll develop people by doing that. I see where you went with this. This is so hard for me, by the way. I just want to lose my mind all the time. I see where you want with this and I understand how we got here. But next time, can we look at it this way or what do you think about if we looked at it this way instead? Next time it just kind of opens the door a little bit. But if I'm seeing it happen over and over again and they fit the culture and they're a great team member and they try hard, what do you do?

James Farrell (31:27)

I look at it in two different axes. I look at whether they're willing and they're able. And able for me is like, do they have the skill and the capability to do the job relative to what does that job? What does good look like for that job? And willingness is. Are they. Do they align with our cultural values? If. If people are willing but ultimately unable to do the job and I can't train them, I can't keep them.

Emma Rainville (31:52)

You're not doing them any favors.

James Farrell (31:53)

No, but you're not doing anybody. Like one of my favorite quotes, tell.

Emma Rainville (31:55)

Them their self esteem.

James Farrell (31:57)

One of my favorite quotes is from Einstein. He said, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it'll grow up its entire life thinking it's stup stupid. And I feel like a lot of times we try and like we're entrepreneurs, so it's. So like, it's. I use it for all sorts of reasons. Right. But like, we try and force people in, like into these roles because we think we could do it or we think they should be able to do it or whatever. And. And usually, and this is like part of a different conversation, but if I have to let somebody go, the conversation isn't, you suck. I'm letting you go. The conversation is, this is what the business needs and this is where you're at. And this is, this is what you're good at that I've observed. And this is what we need. And it's not that there's anything wrong here. It's just not the right fit. You're not the right Tetris block for the row that I'm trying to complete in my Tetris game. And so I'm not doing you any favors by keeping you Here, if you can't be at your best because you deserve an environment and a role that's going to allow you to flourish. And me, I deserve to have somebody in here who can do the thing that I need to do. Right? And it's not this whole like, oh my God, like I'm bad, you're bad, we hate each other or anything. It's very, it's very much about. It's okay, not everything fits. So what?

Emma Rainville (33:08)

Not everything's supposed to.

James Farrell (33:10)

Not everything is supposed to. We tried it. Did we give it our best shot? Did we define what good looks like? Do we have the right check ins? Do we do all these things and still didn't pan out? Who. Why do we have to be upset about that? I think a lot of, a lot of times we have to release ourselves from this, this negativity that comes with it didn't work. So it's my fault, my fault, your fault, whatever. It's like it is fault.

Emma Rainville (33:31)

It just is. Right?

James Farrell (33:31)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (33:32)

There's no blame here. There's no blame here. Hey, I'll take it. Like, sure, just make it my fault. Just make it, just make it okay with that. Just make it Emma's fault.

James Farrell (33:38)

Yeah, next time I'm gonna make it your fault. No matter what the situation.

Emma Rainville (33:40)

No matter what the situation. Just be like that.

James Farrell (33:42)

I couldn't find a parking spot coming here. I knew it was your fault.

Emma Rainville (33:45)

It was my fault. I'm okay with that. That's why I make so much money, by the way, because I'm okay with that. But. Okay, so I, we've talked about how to identify that you don't have a self managed team. How to create the first steps, how to build trust, how to delegate, how to look through and identify and automate. And we've talked to all of that. How to transition. What steps should I take as a business owner? I now feel like my team's ready. I've been watching everything. I feel like it's ready. What does the transition look like for me making all the decisions in my business to allowing my team that's now self managed to make decisions in my business?

James Farrell (34:26)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, you got to decide which decisions you're going to make and which decisions you're going to let them make. And then you also have to figure out how are you going to know whether they're making good decisions. Right. And this comes, this is a broader topic around measurement and KPIs and all those things. Right.

Emma Rainville (34:41)

Maybe you'll come back and do that.

James Farrell (34:42)

I would love to. Really, I would. But I think that if, if I'm going to say, okay, you're responsible not just for, you know, buying my media, but These are the KPIs that I expect, then I expect you to be able to go and do your job. And if you're within, alert me.

Emma Rainville (34:58)

If we're not hitting red, yellow, green.

James Farrell (35:00)

Red, we're out of bounds. Yellow, we're getting close.

Emma Rainville (35:03)

I'm nuts. So I do, I do yellow, red and blue. Blue means blue. Yeah, because everything's blue.

James Farrell (35:10)

Okay. I don't see any blue traffic lights. I try to keep it super simple, right? Green means go. But that's, that's the way that I look at it, okay? And so for media buying, it's like, this is our. This is our cost of acquisition target. If you're in this threshold, why do we need to talk about it? Right? If you're. You keep going. You keep going. You're in the yellow zone. Things are becoming a problem. Great. Now come back to me, hey, we're in the yellow zone. Here's these three things that we think we could do better. This is what I'm going to go with. If you disagree, let me know. Otherwise, I'm moving forward with this. Right? That's a six inch put. Not, hey, what do you want to do today with our ads? I don't want to hear about that. It's a waste of time. It's a waste of everybody's time.

Emma Rainville (35:55)

My favorite line is I'm not sure. Hold on one second and I'll call them. No shit. We'll be on a zoom call. And I'll call them like, hey, someone's asking me what we're going to do with the ads today. Since that's your job, I figured I'd ask you. And at this point, my team knows, if they ask me a question and their phone rings and it's me, they're not even going to answer. They're just going to be like, so here's what we're going to do with the ads today.

James Farrell (36:16)

Yeah. So I think back to your question. Question, figure out what, what are, what decisions are you going to be responsible for still? What decisions are other people going to be responsible for? And if other people are going to be responsible for decisions, you have to help them know what are the parameters for making those decisions? What are you going to. Going back to what does good look like? Right? What is a good decision here versus what's not a good decision here?

Emma Rainville (36:38)

Right.

James Farrell (36:39)

And, and I think Prioritize handing those decisions off. Right, Right. Don't.

Emma Rainville (36:44)

Can I throw a little something in here? Because I love what you're saying, but I think what a lot of people do is they expect people to think like they do, but then they don't spend the time during the buildup of all this to explain why they're making decisions that they make. They're just saying, hey, go do this, or hey, go do that, or, hey, make this happen. If you say, hey, we need to make this happen. Here's why we need to make this happen. Here's how I came to this decision. It's amazing how much faster your team will go. So I just. I just want to.

James Farrell (37:13)

I love that so much.

Emma Rainville (37:14)

I just. Because I know it's already in your head, but it's not. Not inherently in a lot of people. They just want to say, hey, go do this. Well, why didn't you know to go do this? Because you didn't tell them why they were doing it.

James Farrell (37:23)

Yeah. Yeah.

Emma Rainville (37:24)

Please continue.

James Farrell (37:25)

Well, that's the toughest part about training. Training is painful. Right? Training is painful sometimes because you have to. You have to say things that you didn't think you would have to say.

Emma Rainville (37:35)

And that you don't think you should have to say.

James Farrell (37:37)

Yeah, there's an edge to, Like, I shouldn't have to tell somebody this. Okay, maybe.

Emma Rainville (37:44)

But it hurts you not to.

James Farrell (37:45)

It does in the long term. It hurts everybody. It slows everybody down. And who said you shouldn't have to? Like, who. Who said that? It's just a story that you have in your head that, oh, I shouldn't have to say this.

Emma Rainville (37:56)

That's good.

James Farrell (37:56)

And where did you learn it from?

Emma Rainville (37:58)

I mean, I shouldn't have to say some things. I just shouldn't. I shouldn't, I shouldn't. I agree with that whole statement, but I also agree with you that anything that I left unsaid that doesn't get done is my fault.

James Farrell (38:10)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (38:11)

So if you spark up a funnel and you're selling an event ticket, like we've done a gazillion times, the next thing you do is set up the automations and the email sequence to get those people to actually show up to the event that you just sold them.

James Farrell (38:25)

Yeah, yeah. And that comes from experience. Right. So then this.

Emma Rainville (38:28)

But the 15th time we've done the funnel, I shouldn't have to say that.

James Farrell (38:31)

The second time we've done the funnel. Nobody should be talking about that.

Emma Rainville (38:34)

But I can't be upset with what I haven't. Yeah, well, I haven't. Or what I haven't taught my team. That's the thing. What I haven't taught my team to.

James Farrell (38:43)

Say, well, and I think the other. This is also like, what are you hiring for? You're hiring for somebody who's like plug and play and they've had that experience. Right. That you're going to pay more for that person. But that could be a good trade.

Emma Rainville (38:55)

Right?

James Farrell (38:55)

Right.

Emma Rainville (38:55)

Because what's your time? What's your time worth?

James Farrell (38:57)

Right. Or are you going to hire somebody who doesn't have the experience but they have the willingness to do it? That means you're going to have to train them and the details you're going to have to get into are far more excruciating. Right. So you got to figure out like, what's it going to be?

Emma Rainville (39:10)

I am. I have so many more questions we have to kind of wrap up, so you absolutely have to come back. I feel like I did this subconsciously and intentionally because I'm now like. All the questions I have now go into. How often do you review these processes and KPIs. So I think maybe we do it.

James Farrell (39:27)

Yeah, let's do a part two. Yeah, for sure.

Emma Rainville (39:29)

The next set. But I'm going to kind of come to a close with a few wrap up questions, if that's okay. The first thing I want to ask you is you've set this up in your own business. You have multiple businesses, but you set this up in your own business. Can you tell me the most rewarding moment you had when you realized you did it?

James Farrell (39:47)

Yeah, I can actually. So I think it was 2017. I hadn't taken a vacation in a while.

Emma Rainville (39:54)

I feel like everybody's story is a vacation.

James Farrell (39:56)

Yeah, well, it freaked me out. That's that. So I hadn't taken a vacation. I don't know, probably at least not a real one. Not a real off. Yeah, no, none of that. Right. I would, you know, go into a mastermind or this or that or whatever, but it wasn't like, okay, I'm not going to be, I'm not gonna be.

Emma Rainville (40:12)

Answering you at all. Right.

James Farrell (40:14)

So 2017. So for Christmas that year, yada said, hey, I've got a surprise for you. My, my birthday's in March and she got this gift for me at Christmas. She's like, I'm gonna give you three months to prepare your mind for this Christmas gift. And I was like, okay, what is it? She's like, I'm taking you to Europe for 12 days. And I was like, what are You. What am I gonna do? Yeah. Yeah. So you were there.

Emma Rainville (40:39)

That's my reaction. So. I know.

James Farrell (40:41)

Yeah.

Emma Rainville (40:42)

And I did 30 days in the UK this year.

James Farrell (40:45)

Amazing. We just got back from 17 days in Europe, like, three weeks ago. Yeah, we like it there. Right. But I. I couldn't wrap my head around it at that point. She's like, you have three months to figure it out. To figure it out. I was like, okay, so everything. Now I had a reason to, like, really put all this, like, into hyperdrive. And. And we took the trip and we went to. We went to the uk, we went to Italy, we went to Paris. And I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't talk to anybody. I came back. Things were. I might even argue better than when I had left. Right. We had. We had new things in place, that things were working, and I was just like, wow, this is happening. Right? This is. I'm not as needed in all of these details and all these things that I thought I was. And I think that was probably the first time where it really, you know, like, it was like an intellectual understanding before that. That was a real visceral, real experience of this is what needs to continue to happen, and how do I make sure that it happens in bigger ways more, you know, more often and that sort of thing.

Emma Rainville (41:57)

Okay, two last questions. What is the one takeaway you want listeners, when they shut this podcast off, what is the one takeaway you want them to walk away with?

James Farrell (42:09)

I think it's this question about what does good look like?

Emma Rainville (42:11)

I think so, too.

James Farrell (42:12)

I think that's so important. And if all you walk away with is anytime you're handing something off to somebody, even anything that you're doing yourself, what does good look like when this is done?

Emma Rainville (42:24)

Because you start with the end in mind.

James Farrell (42:26)

You start with the end in mind, and it'll just, like, really align you to the most important things.

Emma Rainville (42:31)

I love that. And then I loved. I just recently started asking this question to guests. Top three books you recommend people to read.

James Farrell (42:37)

Man, this is such a. This is the hardest question. All right, so I would say on this topic, Winning by Jack Welch is a phenomenal book about management and just kind of getting your mind right for that. Another book I almost referenced while we were talking earlier, so I'll bring it up here is a book called Quit.

Emma Rainville (42:58)

Yeah.

James Farrell (42:58)

By Annie Duke. Yep.

Emma Rainville (43:00)

I love her well written book.

James Farrell (43:03)

Phenomenal.

Emma Rainville (43:03)

Yeah.

James Farrell (43:04)

Yeah. So, so good. And. And I'm actually reading. I'm not all the way done with it, but I'm reading the status game by Will Store right now.

Emma Rainville (43:14)

Y which I actually didn't read that whole book. I don't know why I didn't read that whole book, but I read pieces of it with Perry. Yeah.

James Farrell (43:21)

Yeah. I'm like, I don't know, 2/3 of the way through.

Emma Rainville (43:23)

Yeah.

James Farrell (43:23)

And I'm excited to finish it over the break. Christmas break. Yeah.

Emma Rainville (43:27)

All right, James, I'm super, super, super stoked to have you have come. We really do. I tell people all the time they have to come back, but really, you have to come back. I have a lot more questions for you. In the second phase of everything, I would love to just tell my listeners about some powerful resources you have by visiting james p4real.com which will be in the show notes. You can access things like turn your executive assistant into an operations rock star, hiring like a boss masterclass and managing like a boss system. James has tons and tons of stuff on his website. I highly, highly, highly recommend you go check it out. As always, subscribe to Special Ops podcast. Visit us at specialopspodcast. Com in order to sign up for our visionary vault and get tons of free resources. Thank you so much, James.

James Farrell (44:21)

Thanks, Emma. Great to be here.