What happens when there’s no one left to manage the founder?

Episode Overview

Podcast: Special Ops with Emma Rainville
Episode Title: What happens when there’s no one left to manage the founder?
Date: November 11, 2025

In this episode, host Emma Rainville is joined by Tiago and Richard from the Shockwave team to explore one of the least-discussed but most critical aspects of business operations: managing up—specifically, how operations leaders and COOs can (and must) hold founders and visionary CEOs accountable. The discussion tackles the emotional realities, tactical approaches, and human side of “managing up” in founder-led companies.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Managing Up Is Essential

Managing up is holding visionaries and company founders accountable, not just managing reports or staff.
Most entrepreneurs and founders are rarely told “no,” but real business scale requires someone to do exactly that.
Empathy is key: Operators need to understand the mental and emotional burdens founders face, often feeling isolated despite being surrounded by people.

Emma: “If your operator isn’t coming back and saying no to you...that’s probably not the person for you.” [00:00]

Tiago: “You gotta think that the company is bigger than you as a founder...face them and have the hard conversations like ‘I’m working for you. This is for your good, it’s for your company.’” [00:05]

2. The Challenge of Accountability at the Top

Without accountability for founders, organizations risk total collapse or dysfunction.
“The hierarchy stops” with the founder, so it’s on the operator/COO to create systems where the founder, too, is held to account.

Emma: “What happens if at the top there’s no accountability?”
Tiago: “They burn the place to the ground.” [08:44–08:53]

3. Emotional Reality: It’s Lonely at the Top

Founders and operators alike are plagued by high-stakes worries—payroll, team welfare, business survival.
Emma and Tiago reflect openly on their emotional struggles shouldering responsibility for their teams’ livelihoods.

Tiago: “It’s crowded with worries...if X thing fails, then Tiago won’t be able to pay for her daughter’s college.” [05:30]

Emma: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high-level operations.” [05:22]

4. Practical Tactics for Managing Up

A. Directness & Simplicity Win

When seeking approval or buy-in from founders, be direct, brief, and clear. Visionary leaders don’t have time or patience for long-winded requests.

Richard: “Simplicity, directness, to-the-point-ness...that is always the way to go. The person generally doesn’t want to necessarily have that discussion. They want to have a potential path of action.” [03:17]

B. Prep, Pre-frame, and Argue for the Right Path

When you disagree or need something, start with the goal and pre-align on objectives to reduce defensiveness.

Richard: "It's not necessarily a case of simplicity. It's about what do you think is the right path and how do you argue for that? ... I have a reason that I think is right." [11:34]

Emma: “Here’s what the goal is. Can we agree on the goal? Because how do you argue that?” [12:12]

C. Empathy, Respect, and Reducing Noise

Start from understanding—study the founder, their working style, and the company. Help them by reducing distractions and enabling delegation, freeing up their mind to focus on what matters most.

Tiago: “You have to start by reducing the noise and getting them to delegate tasks, freeing up their time. And from there, you can have the conversations to hold them accountable.” [12:22]

D. The Two-Way Street

Managing up is not antagonistic—it's about partnering for the greater good of the company. The operator is an advocate for the business, even if it means pushing back against the founder.

Tiago: “You must be accountable to the company. And I will proxy for the company’s sake as the operator, just because the hierarchy has to end somewhere.” [10:18]

5. Creating a Culture Where Managing Up Is Expected

Emma’s mentorship programs train COOs and operators to manage up, stressing that founder accountability is vital for growth.
Entrepreneurs are encouraged to invite and empower operators to hold them to account.
This is why large companies have boards: someone at the top must also answer to a higher standard for the organization’s health.

Emma: “We teach visionary entrepreneurs to encourage their operations team to manage up. It is vitally important to the business that the business owner be held accountable.” [10:27]

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

[00:00] Emma: “If your operator isn’t coming back and saying no to you...that’s probably not the person for you.”
[00:05] Tiago: “You gotta think that the company is bigger than you as a founder.”
[04:05] Emma: “Tell me what to do, tell me when you need it by and then remind me 10 times if I forget.”
[05:22] Emma: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high level operations.”
[08:44] Emma: "What happens if at the top there’s no accountability?"
[08:52] Tiago: "They burn the place to the ground."
[10:18] Tiago: "You must be accountable to the company. And I will proxy for the company's sake as the operator, just because the hierarchy has to end somewhere."
[12:22] Tiago: "You need to prove that you're here to make their lives and the company better."

Timestamps of Key Segments

00:26 – 02:29: Introduction and setting up the “managing up” challenge
02:29 – 04:19: Richard on real client experience, getting founder attention and buy-in
04:19 – 06:12: Tiago on managing founders during emotional meltdowns; empathy for the pressures at the top
06:12 – 08:34: The emotional burdens of founders and operators; stories about worrying over team members and business stakes
08:44 – 08:53: The consequences of no one holding the founder accountable
09:33 – 10:27: Tiago on the need for hard conversations and framing accountability as caring for the company
10:27 – 11:30: Emma on teaching founders to expect and welcome being managed up
11:34 – 12:50: Richard and Tiago on boiling complex leadership conversations down to “start with the goal,” and “prove you’re here to help”

Memorable Moments

Emma’s raw honesty about the emotional stress of leadership: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high-level operations.” [05:22]
The blunt truth on a lack of upward accountability: “They burn the place to the ground.” [08:52]
The actionable playbook: Tiago’s downloadable PDF on how to manage anyone, even (jokingly) Emma herself.

Takeaway Playbook

Managing Up, according to Emma, Tiago, and Richard:

Study your founder’s style, concerns, and triggers.
Communicate simply, directly, and around goals.
Show empathy for their unique burdens.
Hold hard lines, respectfully, for the health of the company—not to undermine, but to uplift.
Prove your value by removing noise and freeing the founder to focus.
Build a culture where operators are expected—and encouraged—to manage up.

For downloadable tools and further actionable steps, listeners can access Tiago’s PDF “How to Manage Anyone, Even Emma Rainville” via the Visionary Vault at specialopspodcast.com

Episode Overview

Podcast: Special Ops with Emma Rainville
Episode Title: What happens when there’s no one left to manage the founder?
Date: November 11, 2025

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Managing Up Is Essential

Managing up is holding visionaries and company founders accountable, not just managing reports or staff.
Most entrepreneurs and founders are rarely told “no,” but real business scale requires someone to do exactly that.
Empathy is key: Operators need to understand the mental and emotional burdens founders face, often feeling isolated despite being surrounded by people.

Emma: “If your operator isn’t coming back and saying no to you...that’s probably not the person for you.” [00:00]

Tiago: “You gotta think that the company is bigger than you as a founder...face them and have the hard conversations like ‘I’m working for you. This is for your good, it’s for your company.’” [00:05]

2. The Challenge of Accountability at the Top

Without accountability for founders, organizations risk total collapse or dysfunction.
“The hierarchy stops” with the founder, so it’s on the operator/COO to create systems where the founder, too, is held to account.

Emma: “What happens if at the top there’s no accountability?”
Tiago: “They burn the place to the ground.” [08:44–08:53]

3. Emotional Reality: It’s Lonely at the Top

Founders and operators alike are plagued by high-stakes worries—payroll, team welfare, business survival.
Emma and Tiago reflect openly on their emotional struggles shouldering responsibility for their teams’ livelihoods.

Tiago: “It’s crowded with worries...if X thing fails, then Tiago won’t be able to pay for her daughter’s college.” [05:30]

Emma: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high-level operations.” [05:22]

4. Practical Tactics for Managing Up

A. Directness & Simplicity Win

When seeking approval or buy-in from founders, be direct, brief, and clear. Visionary leaders don’t have time or patience for long-winded requests.

Richard: “Simplicity, directness, to-the-point-ness...that is always the way to go. The person generally doesn’t want to necessarily have that discussion. They want to have a potential path of action.” [03:17]

B. Prep, Pre-frame, and Argue for the Right Path

When you disagree or need something, start with the goal and pre-align on objectives to reduce defensiveness.

Richard: "It's not necessarily a case of simplicity. It's about what do you think is the right path and how do you argue for that? ... I have a reason that I think is right." [11:34]

Emma: “Here’s what the goal is. Can we agree on the goal? Because how do you argue that?” [12:12]

C. Empathy, Respect, and Reducing Noise

Start from understanding—study the founder, their working style, and the company. Help them by reducing distractions and enabling delegation, freeing up their mind to focus on what matters most.

Tiago: “You have to start by reducing the noise and getting them to delegate tasks, freeing up their time. And from there, you can have the conversations to hold them accountable.” [12:22]

D. The Two-Way Street

Managing up is not antagonistic—it's about partnering for the greater good of the company. The operator is an advocate for the business, even if it means pushing back against the founder.

Tiago: “You must be accountable to the company. And I will proxy for the company’s sake as the operator, just because the hierarchy has to end somewhere.” [10:18]

5. Creating a Culture Where Managing Up Is Expected

Emma’s mentorship programs train COOs and operators to manage up, stressing that founder accountability is vital for growth.
Entrepreneurs are encouraged to invite and empower operators to hold them to account.
This is why large companies have boards: someone at the top must also answer to a higher standard for the organization’s health.

Emma: “We teach visionary entrepreneurs to encourage their operations team to manage up. It is vitally important to the business that the business owner be held accountable.” [10:27]

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

[00:00] Emma: “If your operator isn’t coming back and saying no to you...that’s probably not the person for you.”
[00:05] Tiago: “You gotta think that the company is bigger than you as a founder.”
[04:05] Emma: “Tell me what to do, tell me when you need it by and then remind me 10 times if I forget.”
[05:22] Emma: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high level operations.”
[08:44] Emma: "What happens if at the top there’s no accountability?"
[08:52] Tiago: "They burn the place to the ground."
[10:18] Tiago: "You must be accountable to the company. And I will proxy for the company's sake as the operator, just because the hierarchy has to end somewhere."
[12:22] Tiago: "You need to prove that you're here to make their lives and the company better."

Timestamps of Key Segments

00:26 – 02:29: Introduction and setting up the “managing up” challenge
02:29 – 04:19: Richard on real client experience, getting founder attention and buy-in
04:19 – 06:12: Tiago on managing founders during emotional meltdowns; empathy for the pressures at the top
06:12 – 08:34: The emotional burdens of founders and operators; stories about worrying over team members and business stakes
08:44 – 08:53: The consequences of no one holding the founder accountable
09:33 – 10:27: Tiago on the need for hard conversations and framing accountability as caring for the company
10:27 – 11:30: Emma on teaching founders to expect and welcome being managed up
11:34 – 12:50: Richard and Tiago on boiling complex leadership conversations down to “start with the goal,” and “prove you’re here to help”

Memorable Moments

Emma’s raw honesty about the emotional stress of leadership: “You’ve never been so lonely around so many people in your whole life as when you’re high-level operations.” [05:22]
The blunt truth on a lack of upward accountability: “They burn the place to the ground.” [08:52]
The actionable playbook: Tiago’s downloadable PDF on how to manage anyone, even (jokingly) Emma herself.

Takeaway Playbook

Managing Up, according to Emma, Tiago, and Richard:

Study your founder’s style, concerns, and triggers.
Communicate simply, directly, and around goals.
Show empathy for their unique burdens.
Hold hard lines, respectfully, for the health of the company—not to undermine, but to uplift.
Prove your value by removing noise and freeing the founder to focus.
Build a culture where operators are expected—and encouraged—to manage up.

For downloadable tools and further actionable steps, listeners can access Tiago’s PDF “How to Manage Anyone, Even Emma Rainville” via the Visionary Vault at specialopspodcast.com

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Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Managing Up Is Essential

2. The Challenge of Accountability at the Top

3. Emotional Reality: It’s Lonely at the Top

4. Practical Tactics for Managing Up

A. Directness & Simplicity Win

B. Prep, Pre-frame, and Argue for the Right Path

C. Empathy, Respect, and Reducing Noise

D. The Two-Way Street

5. Creating a Culture Where Managing Up Is Expected

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

Timestamps of Key Segments

Memorable Moments

Takeaway Playbook

Summary

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Managing Up Is Essential

2. The Challenge of Accountability at the Top

3. Emotional Reality: It’s Lonely at the Top

4. Practical Tactics for Managing Up

A. Directness & Simplicity Win

B. Prep, Pre-frame, and Argue for the Right Path

C. Empathy, Respect, and Reducing Noise

D. The Two-Way Street

5. Creating a Culture Where Managing Up Is Expected

Notable Quotes by Timestamp

Timestamps of Key Segments

Memorable Moments

Takeaway Playbook