← Follow The Yellow Brick Road
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- [00:03]
Emma Rainville
Why people say no and how to flip it into a yes instantly. My guest today is Nick Verge, copywriter and marketing psychology expert for direct response marketers, e commerce sellers and influencers. Why do potential customers hesitate even when they clearly need your product? Today, Nick Verge and I are uncovering the hidden reasons why people say no and exactly how to flip that into a yes without being pushy. Get the Psychological Sales Trigger cheat sheet at www.specialopspodcast.com. to apply these tactics immediately. Sign up for our Visionary Vault where you'll get free courses, checklists and a whole bunch of other stuff. Thank you for joining me. I'm your host Emma Rainville. And today on Special Ops Podcast we have Nick Verge and we are talking about why people say no and how to flip that into a yes in instantly. Nick Verge comes to us with a load of experience in direct response marketing, e commerce and influencer marketing. Nick is a copywriter and marketing psychology expert. So Nick, you were on a couple weeks ago and we had this really, really phenomenal conversation, you and I. So you are a master at many things, particularly in the psychology of buying, which is why you do so well as a copywriter and a marketer. But flipping a no to a yes is something that happens after we've created all of our messaging. And I would love for you just to dive into what we were talking about last time. Why do potential customers hesitate to buy even when they clearly know they need your product? And how do you turn that no into a yes?
- [01:47]
Nick Verge
Yeah, yeah. I look at a, a VSL as kind of like a perfect sales call. If, if you really think about it, it's like everything from start to finish that needs to be said. And sometimes what happens when someone's watching a vsl, they maybe don't make it all the way through before we got to the point where we could handle that objection or we didn't appeal to them properly or maybe the hook didn't resonate with them or whatever. I think that a lot of what allows you to be able to turn nos into yeses is the factor that most business owners don't wanna talk about, which is frequency and time. So. So you have so many people that especially. And we were talking last time about agencies. I think one of the weirdest parts about agencies, and you know it as well as I do, that people are selling three month packages usually work with us for 90 days and so we have to create business success in 90 days. But in all honesty, I've seen the best campaigns sometimes take upwards of A year, right? I mean, there's a really great marketer in Austin. His name's Roy H. Williams. I love Roy. He's a. Do you know Roy?
- [02:47]
Emma Rainville
I know of Roy. I have never met him.
- [02:49]
Nick Verge
Roy's a kooky fella and I love him so much. Cause of how unique he. And it reminds me of probably how I'm gonna be when I'm like 60 or however he could be a hundred, I don't know. But he's like, he's a fairly old guy and a lot of what he talks about is it's getting what he called in radio. And I just took what he said in radio and I was like, well, all of that applies to Facebook ads. He is in total denial of Facebook ads sometimes, which is funny. Like him and I, when we were together at the event, it was so cool to see, like I can tell the age difference between us and the way we view things is very different. Yet him and I are still speaking the same language. It's just the nuance. It's like dial. That's different, right. And he talks about a three peat frequency. So if I can reach someone three times within seven nights sleep, then I can start to enter into their mind. And he's right.
- [03:37]
Emma Rainville
Sleep, yeah.
- [03:38]
Nick Verge
And he's right about that, that it's how you create that lasting impression. And so I try and do that with ads, but I think what a lot of people do with their ads is they don't realize that actually the more they're putting themselves out there, the more frequency they're actually ruining their reputation as time goes on. A perfect example of this that I see is UGC content now. So market awareness is something that is dynamic and changing over time. And when every single video I see is a perfectly lit video of a girl holding the bottle and saying, I just tried whatever or I just did. Like people catch on to this. If you want proof of it, read the comments. People comment on the ads, this is fake, this is a scam, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So I think it's reaching people with different types of messages and not just, well, it's the easiest for us to outsource the ugc. So we're just going to do only UGC for retargeting. When it's like, no, no, you should do like a message from the founder, customer testimonials, just product images, use cases, et cetera. Like you need multiple forms to appeal to these people. Almost like we're kind of trying to create a melody with everything that we're saying when it's just, I see this so often with ecom brands. Ugc, ugc, ugc. And then the agency will be like, well, it's working. And it's the exact conversation we had last time where I say it's working. Yes. At a diminished rate to what it could work at because you either improving your reputation as they see you more or not improving it. And I think a lot of people, especially in kind of more aware markets are starting to just pick up on those like, this isn't a real person, this is a sponsored thing. Like obviously we don't see an ad with Dwayne the Rock Johnson and be like, he must really love this product. Like that's no. It's like he has a vested interest. But it's different when it's not a celebrity and it's like just an everyday person who's like very clearly staged. So I think a lot of what turns the no to the yes is over time consistency, showing multiple sides of the product. Almost like you think about like a nine sided die, like all the different sides of it and showing it and doing it in multiple different formats. And as well making sure that we're hitting like what we talked about last time, the different emotions that are consistent in the customer avatar. Because for a man there could be multiple emotions that they're tapping into. For a woman it could be completely different. And so I think a lot of what it is is consistency over time and then as well making sure we're hitting all the different sides of everything. That's kind of my philosophy on it.
- [06:05]
Emma Rainville
That's pretty cool stuff. So can you talk to me about copywriting persuasion tactics that you have for turning those nos into yeses?
- [06:13]
Nick Verge
Sure. I mean tell a different story. Like I think that copywriting, you know, like the clickbank VSLs that are very like I woke up in the middle of night screaming and then she knew, like it's like they use storytelling.
- [06:25]
Emma Rainville
Right.
- [06:25]
Nick Verge
Because storytelling works really, really well. And so there's likely five to six stories that are revolving around your customer avatar. You know, I use the oil field metaphor a lot. You've tapped oil in one area. Let's try and find the oil in multiple areas so we can set up those drills there to get other customers. And so there's probably five to six different stories. How can we tell those different stories? So you know, if we're using like AI just as a basic example, because I can't, like I'm not going to, you know, write right now in front of Everyone, I would say like a perfect, you know, you get your five or six ICPs, the five or six different people that are buying your product, and you Write a Ask ChatGPT to give you like a perfect diary entry of a story that they're telling about their experience with the product specific to them and what they're going through. And I'll get those five. And then, awesome, we got five different stories. Now I can go and take those and I can put those, you know, in ads. I can put them in VSLs. I can put them. I would say emails and ads are the best place to use those. So stories are one way to do it. The other way is kind of thinking about it like that. The conscious mind through logical arguments. Okay, what are the objections that someone would have? I always think about that because, like, I think that there's only so many different objections. Like, when you study sales guys, you realize there's only like a logistics a time, which is kind of logistics, like an investment kind of thing. Like, or it's just they don't need it or they don't think it can help them. Like, there's only so many objections that someone can have. So I'll figure out what all those objections are usually through the research and trying to figure out what it was. What, you know, great question to ask on any research call is, um, what made you almost say no? Like, what. What made you almost say no on that? Why. Why did you say yes? You know, what was it specifically? And figuring those things out and then from there writing ads that, like a lawyer presenting an argument, I bang out those different.
- [08:18]
Emma Rainville
You're overcoming those objections before they even enter the market.
- [08:20]
Nick Verge
And that's the frequency of like, over time. If. If, like, they're like, dang, this guy. Like, you know, I watched their vsl, I didn't buy. But then, like, the next day I saw this and that was true. And next day I saw that and I was like, I also had that. That's when you get into that, oh, I'm speaking their language or they're speaking my language. They're saying the thing that's going on in my mind better than I could myself. So I say, that's another way to go about doing it. And then the last thing that I really like to do is kind of again, going back to those ICPs. I really focus on what are the emotions that people are experiencing and what are they trying to get. So if you think about it like we talked about fear, well, the inverse of fear is peace. So if your audience is in a state of fear, then you need to sell peace. Just start the ad with want blank and test with literally just those two words, want blank. So if it was, let's say with weight loss. Want peace of mind. When you step on the scale, Want peace of mind at your next doctor's appointment. Want whatever. I will just test what are all the different motives we can say. And I'll take those and put them just into that basic want blank formula. So there's so many different tactics and strategies for it. This is why I always say that like tactics and strategies are a dime a dozen. What matters more than anything is like, what are we saying? Like, why are we saying it? So I find with a lot of my clients, they'll come to me and you know, if it's a one on one consulting client, like we had this last week in Nashville where the client's like, oh, we need a vsl. And we start our private day and we're going through and we're collecting a lot of data. And he's like, I don't understand how this ties into the vsl. I'm like, dude, chill. Like give us an hour. We need to develop all the understanding of who we're speaking to and what we're saying. Then when we moved on to the vsl, like I just wrote it in front of them and they're like, he just got a VSL done in like an hour or two. It's like, how. Because I had all the information organized beforehand. It's like trying to cook a meal when you don't have all the ingredients organized versus like when you have everything.
- [10:15]
Emma Rainville
Like portioned out takes so much less time.
- [10:17]
Nick Verge
That's how I.
- [10:17]
Emma Rainville
Why does it take Rachael Ray 13 minutes to put together the entire thing to go into the oven? That takes me four hours because I'm cutting the garlic and putting it together. Cause I'm chopping all of the vegetables. Because she's prepared it all.
- [10:32]
Nick Verge
Exactly.
- [10:32]
Emma Rainville
So you're preparing it all.
- [10:34]
Nick Verge
I look at that as the same thing. It's the exact same thing. And so I think if people spent more time preparing data based on what their customers are saying and what they are seeing from their market and also what their competitors are saying. Cause that's usually some of the easiest shortcuts is just let them do the work for you and then taking it and just, you know, applying it to those different formulas. Ada, pass, et cetera, Star. They all work, they're great. It's weird with AI now Because like I. I feel like an old man almost when I say this. From like I. I had to do it manually. Shut up. I had to do it manually.
- [11:07]
Emma Rainville
Shut up.
- [11:08]
Nick Verge
I had to do it manually.
- [11:08]
Emma Rainville
I'm almost double your age. Shut up.
- [11:10]
Nick Verge
I had to write copy manually. Like, I didn't have AI.
- [11:13]
Emma Rainville
I had to write copy manually.
- [11:16]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [11:17]
Emma Rainville
It's so true though. Me and I have a guy on my team. His name is Sokka. I absolutely adore him. And him and I were talking about. You probably remember Richard from my team. He's been with me since the very beginning. Richard, like, he wrote this like 12 page thing. And Sako's like, Emma. He's like, I think Richard wrote this whole thing by hand. And we both just had the biggest laugh because he wrote the whole thing by hand. It's like, who does that now? I don't even write an email anymore anyway.
- [11:44]
Nick Verge
You get what I mean though. That's why I do.
- [11:45]
Emma Rainville
We went off kilter. Bring it back. But ye.
- [11:48]
Nick Verge
Yeah. So it's a big thing is like, you know, now it was always about the thoughts. We just had writing as an intermediary. And so now the writing intermediary is gone. We don't need it anymore.
- [11:58]
Emma Rainville
Yep. I'd like to talk for a minute about micro commitments. I find that this is a hack. When you can get people to say yes, yes, yes to small things, it makes that bigger purchase so much easier. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? I'd love to chat about that for a minute. What that is and the best ways to set that up.
- [12:16]
Nick Verge
Yeah, I'll give you a couple. Um, there's a lot of NLP out there on like how to create them.
- [12:22]
Emma Rainville
Jason Flatland, he loves it. I actually don't know if he's a big NLP guy, to be honest.
- [12:27]
Nick Verge
Definitely knows it.
- [12:28]
Emma Rainville
I work with him, so he definitely knows it. Understands it. Even the way he repeats back what he hears someone say to them to validate them. But he, he uses a lot of these micro commitment hacks.
- [12:39]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [12:39]
Emma Rainville
And that's kind of where I've leaned in, but go ahead.
- [12:41]
Nick Verge
Yeah, he does. In the webinars where like it's almost the philosophy I think a lot of the VSL and webinars guys have. I'm very similar to him in that like within the first couple minutes I want to create 5 to 10 micro commitments on it. So one of the micro commitments, like in terms of language is. Right. You're saying that it's so frustrating to lose weight Right. You know, and so person's like, yes. And even though they're not saying it, they are kind of.
- [13:04]
Emma Rainville
They're saying.
- [13:05]
Nick Verge
They're saying it in their head. So that's one version of it. I like to also focus on the outcome that they're trying to get to. By the end of this webinar I'm going to give you, you're going to have the exact path that you need to follow to be able to triple your sales as an Amazon store seller. And so the micro commitment there isn't you getting to say yes. It's that I want that thing. And so I'm going to get that at the end. And so I look at micro commitments as almost like open loops, and I want them to commit to closing the loop, you know, so that, you know, is another one as well. I use that one almost unconsciously. I just say, you know, you know, what I'm saying is a big one.
- [13:42]
Emma Rainville
Makes sense. Is my favorite.
- [13:43]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Makes sense.
- [13:44]
Emma Rainville
Does that make sense?
- [13:44]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Yeah.
- [13:45]
Emma Rainville
Because. Are you dumb? Do you not understand what I'm saying?
- [13:47]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [13:48]
Emma Rainville
Right.
- [13:48]
Nick Verge
Yes. Yeah. So I like that. But the other thing as well that I like to do, and I actually learned this from Ron Lynch. He's a very close mentor of mine. I attribute a lot of my success. Uncle Ron. I attribute a lot of success to Ron.
- [14:00]
Emma Rainville
He still comes on my damn Amazon show. I can't figure out how to like, he'll just.
- [14:04]
Nick Verge
Oh, he just pops up. Yeah.
- [14:05]
Emma Rainville
Well, he got me one time we were hanging out and I was like, in my Alexa app and we were talking about how he has his little show. His little show. I shouldn't say, like, that. It's a great show. I've read everything Ron lynch has ever written, including his private collection of writings he sent to me a few years ago, the Mercenary. He actually sent me 12, 13 different books that he's written that never got published, and I consume them all. So Ron's great. But he showed me on Amazon how I could subscribe to his show.
- [14:35]
Nick Verge
Oh. So it just pops up always now.
- [14:36]
Emma Rainville
And so even when he doesn't put. Even when it's like, been a while since he put something out, it's like, do Uncle Ron, Uncle Ron here.
- [14:43]
Nick Verge
And I love you. Yeah, he always does that. And I love you.
- [14:45]
Emma Rainville
And I love you.
- [14:47]
Nick Verge
So Ron taught me how. I think that sometimes what would happen is I write. I do write aggressive copy. I don't write unethical copy. But I'm kind of naturally. I think in my life, I'm A little bit more intense of an individual. And so with my copy, it sometimes gets intense. And what he always talks about is, you're building the pain. You want to stop the pain and. And go to explain them that, like, yes, this is your fault, but I'm going to show you how to get out of it. So, like, for instance, we're writing for a diabetes offer, and one of the things was, you know, and this is the byproduct of, you know, I was talking about how blood sugar going up and up and up. And like, you know, the side effect of that is, like, you could have an early death. Right. And there's a lot of bad stuff that can happen.
- [15:29]
Emma Rainville
I almost feel like worse than that. And this is what I go to for blood sugar. Worse than that. You can lose your sight, you can have no feet.
- [15:36]
Nick Verge
Yeah, yeah. So you go to these little.
- [15:38]
Emma Rainville
I feel like that's worth the. Yeah, right.
- [15:40]
Nick Verge
So, like, whatever. The thing is, you can have all these medical ailments that pop up.
- [15:44]
Emma Rainville
By the way, Ryan Poteet, who I actually have, like, a subcategory of my podcast launching in May with. Or in. Yeah, May with him, where he's on every Friday with me for 20 minutes, is going to lose his mind over this conversation.
- [15:57]
Nick Verge
Does he have diabetes offer?
- [15:58]
Emma Rainville
No, no, no. He's a FTC attorney.
- [16:00]
Nick Verge
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [16:02]
Emma Rainville
He's an FTC FDA attorney.
- [16:03]
Nick Verge
And I love the FTC attorneys when I get to work with them because they are experts at saying it without it, without saying. And I love. I love those with a lot of financial officers.
- [16:12]
Emma Rainville
I just tricked him into coming in every week and doing a podcast with me. So I just, instead of 750 bucks, I just ask him questions.
- [16:18]
Nick Verge
Yeah, what about this? What about that? What about this? That's a great idea. Great idea. Start a podcast with an attorney. Yeah, so. So, like, okay, so the. You're going to lose your leg or all these bad things. What Ron does is then immediately at that point. But don't worry. Even though this is something that's due to the behaviors that you've created or habits over time, in this short video, I'm going to show you exactly how to reverse everything to the point where we can get you back to how you felt when you were 20. Now let's move on. And then he goes back to the pain. So there's a quick. Like he explains it is Nick, you can't just punch them in the head 15 times and then be like, now pay attention. Like, you can't do that. He's like, you have to punch him in the face 15 times and then put an ice pack on them, tell them they're a good boy and we love them. And now we move on to the next thing.
- [17:02]
Emma Rainville
Right? Break them down, build them back up.
- [17:04]
Nick Verge
I look at that as almost like you could call like a, maybe a, a variation of a micro commitment. It's, it's again, open loops. So a lot of what I'm doing is it's in the language. It's in like them committing to that they want to change something. And then as well, you know, I like the people will say, for instance, this is not for blank, blank, blank. And all we do when we say that is we just speak to like the antagonist of this person. It's usually their shadow that they're in denial about. So it's like this is not for the person that's looking for fast, easy hacks who just wants to take a pill. And then, boom, everything's done. I'm here to tell you today that that's a scam. And you've likely, if you're like me or like my dad, you know, you fell for some of these things and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Right. And then you move on. Like, that's almost like a form of micro commitment and identity. Micro commitment. Oh, yes. I align with that.
- [17:57]
Emma Rainville
This goes perfect into my next question. So the power of identity selling.
- [18:03]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [18:04]
Emma Rainville
And so making customers see your product as part of their identity. When they say no, talk to me about that and how you do that.
- [18:12]
Nick Verge
Yeah, I think identity is everything. Right. It's like why anyone does anything is cause it aligns with their identity. A good, good friend of mine, Cody Jefferson, says, this is who I am, so this is what I do. And I feel like that really explains everyone perfectly. Right. Like I, I, I think what really helped when I started studying psychology is when you study psychology and you start to understand your emotions and you stop suppressing them. Like I for a while would suppress a lot. Like I would either go into some form of like a manic episode, or I would go into, you know, drugs or whatever just to like suppress myself and then like not have to feel these things. But once I started feeling actually and just being okay with the fact that I'm sad or I'm angry or whatever it is, I then started to see my own flaws. And when I saw my own flaws, I was a lot more empathetic towards other people because I realized, ah, you know, I've done stupid things like that Before I've said dumb things like that I've made bad decisions. So you stop dealing with the projection of why this person's wrong. And you can instead, how Maslow put it, to see the humanity in the other person. And so really what everyone's walking around with is this story of who they are. But then there's the reality of who they actually are based on whatever's happened and what they're doing. And, you know, you said something last time we talked that was about you. People don't want to admit that they fucked up. Like, they don't want to admit they made a lot of bad mistakes for a very long time. So what I try and speak to is the identity that people are trying to get to while helping them see that the identity that they're at is not their fault. Like, it's. Oh, it's. And then we say mechanisms or we say societal issues or, you know, whatever it is. And so what I really want to speak to is the archetypes. Like, there's so much of this unconscious beliefs that are running through people's minds that we don't even realize why, but they're just there. Like, why do some men just take on the role of the warrior? Like, why are they just like that? I'm sure you see a guy like David Goggins where it's just like, who's gonna carry the boats and everything. I think a lot of guys align with that was. Cause that's their archetype and that's who they align with. Or it's, you know, that's who they wanna be. So I try and find what are the archetypes. Like, is it a king? Is it a wizard? Is it a magician? Is it a lover? Like, is it the child? Like, who is this person trying to be their highest version of themselves? And then I speak to the fact that it's not too late for them to become that person if they're in a form of apathy, usually.
- [20:45]
Emma Rainville
That's really good. That's really good. Yeah, I love that. Okay. So as I do, I have created five action steps for people to overcome buyer resistance in your copy and sales process. You're going to follow along with me and then you're going to either disagree or add to. Is that cool?
- [21:02]
Nick Verge
Sure.
- [21:03]
Emma Rainville
Step one, identify the real reason your customers are hesitating.
- [21:08]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [21:09]
Emma Rainville
Step two, address objections before they come up in your copy. Step three. You like how I set this all up? No. Almost knowing what you would say.
- [21:18]
Nick Verge
Yeah, it's great.
- [21:19]
Emma Rainville
Step three, use Testimonials and case studies to eliminate doubt. Step four, implement urgency and exclusivity without feeling pushed. Pushy. Use future pacing to help customers visualize success. Success with your product. Sure you want to talk about those for a minute before we.
- [21:38]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [21:39]
Emma Rainville
Sign off here?
- [21:40]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Step one, I think is valid. First and foremost, from a CRO perspective. I like to kind of bully the CRO guys sometimes because I love them but at the same time, sometimes they over left brain everything.
- [21:49]
Emma Rainville
I know you're dirty.
- [21:50]
Nick Verge
Yeah, you know I like, I like to sometimes because it's like, it's like, yeah, like, dude, we could micro. There's, there's a great saying by Seth Godin where he says that if we were to CRO everything to the maximum degree, it would eventually end up with a blank website that I don't want to say for algorithmic purposes. I think you get what I'm saying.
- [22:06]
Emma Rainville
Yeah.
- [22:07]
Nick Verge
So I look first at the CRO of things because sometimes what happens like, okay, so for instance, you got an 18 question application and it's like ridiculously long. And then I'm like, okay, dude, do you need just book calls right now? Yeah, man. Okay, maybe we can like take it down to like six because if we're optimizing for book calls right now, you just need more calls. How about just make it a little bit simpler?
- [22:30]
Emma Rainville
Yeah.
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Nick Verge
E com products, checkout process. I look at the post emails, like what's happening there? So a lot of times if I'm dealing with an E commerce product, like they hire me, I'll just buy their stuff. Mystery email. They don't even know it's me. I'm just going to come back with like data and just be like, hey, here's what happened.
- [22:42]
Emma Rainville
Yeah.
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Nick Verge
I look at what's, what's not working there. So CRO is the first thing. The next thing is we talked about, you know, interviews with people. Interviews and asking the question why did you.
- [22:55]
Emma Rainville
So we actually, we talked about that on our last podcast together a few weeks ago. So if you didn't see that and you want to know what Nick is talking about, you can go back and watch the last episode we did, which is why you're losing your customers. The biggest psychology mistake people are making.
- [23:13]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Yeah. So you, you'll figure out why asking them at the end of the call, why did you almost not buy? So figuring out what that is, I think that, you know, really what you're trying to figure out there is like what is the form of resistance? And if it's like Some people are saying, yeah, I just feel like I could probably get this, like for 20 bucks online or something, whatever it is. Right. I know I can get a cheaper version.
- [23:36]
Emma Rainville
You know the new thing people are saying just to kind of drop and side shift us for a second. I can create your course on chat GPT. Why would I buy it from you?
- [23:44]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Right.
- [23:45]
Emma Rainville
So that's a new one we got to get ready for. Because that's going to become more and more.
- [23:49]
Nick Verge
But go ahead 100% just figuring out what it. What is the thing that they're saying. And I think that with a business owner. We did mention this in the last time that we chatted. Sometimes what you gotta do is you just either hire someone like me or hire someone like just a separate copywriter to do this. Cause you're probably too emotionally attached and can't take the feedback from your customers. Cause you're gonna say like, well, no, you don't understand. It may actually be best for you to be at this from a distance and just look at the data. Just be like, hey, here's.
- [24:15]
Emma Rainville
I've seen this over and over and over again. That's kind of the same. I'm part of Driven Mastermind and they do something called hot seats. So anytime you're ever struggling in your business, you can come in and do a hot seat every Wednesday. And it's all the owners, they have like 12 faculty members. And then all the members. Well, not all the members, but, you know, you'll have 20, 30 people on a Wednesday call that'll dissect your problem with you.
- [24:40]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Emma Rainville
And man, these people get on wanting help and then they just argue and argue. Not all the time. Most of the time, most people are grateful and they're not stuck in ego because they're driven and they want money. But every so often, you'll just have someone that's like, no, you're not listening. No, you don't understand the problem. And it's finally. You just got to look at and be like, you're right. You're perfect. Your product's great. You, you must not be having revenue problems that you're telling us about since.
- [25:04]
Nick Verge
And sometimes I need someone like you to just say that to them.
- [25:07]
Emma Rainville
Right.
- [25:07]
Nick Verge
You know, like, I remember it was one time with a client where we had a very similar thing like that. And I just, okay, yeah. And he was just like, well, no, but I want a solution. Why? You already have the solution, right? You already know what it is.
- [25:18]
Emma Rainville
Why would you pay me?
- [25:19]
Nick Verge
Well, no, that's that's not what I meant. Okay, so can we drop the ego for like a minute and go into it? And then they're like, okay, yeah, so. So I think that's, that's huge. Just like having that ability to have someone separate so you're not having to emotionally deal with it. The next thing, addressing objections before they come up in your copy. Absolutely. You know, split testing and also seeing like, hey, what is maybe the lead that we could talk about? Because if we're seeing a specific objection popping up a lot, maybe we can tie that in even sooner in the VSL or in the emails or in whatever webinar, whatever. Your sales letter doesn't, doesn't really matter what mechanism.
- [25:50]
Emma Rainville
But I love. You're asking your client why you. Why what? If you would, what was the biggest.
- [25:56]
Nick Verge
What made you almost not buy.
- [25:57]
Emma Rainville
Thank you. You said it better.
- [25:58]
Nick Verge
Yeah, yeah. Like if you get that thing, like, you know, for instance, one of the main things that people say oftentimes is, oh, well, I was looking at this guy and he does this or this company and they do this. And then how do we differentiate it? How can we. Actually, I don't ever recommend people saying bad things about other companies, but rather you saying, let's say it's a magnesium supplement and saying like, you know, actually a lot of people don't know this, but most magnesium glycinate companies, they source it from a specific region of this, this, this, and here's the issue with that. When we tested it, we found this was really low. But then when we found it from this region, we found this was really high, et cetera. You see this with clickbank and supplement VSLs all the time. So that's huge for number two. I like addressing objections where they come up. I don't really have a ton to add on there other than just go find out what the objections are. I think Amazon book reviews and Amazon reviews are great for. Great goldmine for that. Because if you go to a one star review, that's an angry person, that's someone who has an objection and they were upset about something. So I'll grab those as well. And those are massive. And Reddit as well. People want to poo poo Reddit. I like Reddit because it's like the cope center of the Internet. Everyone goes to Reddit to cope. So you can find what are the objections. You have a weight loss offer that's designed for Christian men. Like it's, it's like we use Christian biblical principles to help men lose weight and When I was going on the Reddit, it's just a gold mine of all the stories people are saying, well, how can we just within the first two minutes, smash all those objections?
- [27:24]
Emma Rainville
Yep. So I like, I love, I love Reddit. That's where I do most of my customer research. My, my customer avatar research is.
- [27:30]
Nick Verge
Yeah. It's the same thing that we said with the business owner where there's an emotional attachment to it. And so they feel like, I don't want to listen to those people. I'm like, you absolutely should.
- [27:38]
Emma Rainville
Unfortunately, when I do go on Reddit, just ran random. Random. Do you know who Charlotte Debris is?
- [27:43]
Nick Verge
No.
- [27:43]
Emma Rainville
It's the only thing I do in my life. That's a complete waste of time. She has the best, like, subreddit ever and she just basically, like destroys people for being just absolute pieces of shit.
- [27:54]
Nick Verge
Great.
- [27:55]
Emma Rainville
And so every time I go on Reddit, because I went on there one time.
- [27:58]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [27:59]
Emma Rainville
I end up on her subreddit, which then I end up on her YouTube channel. Finding the subreddits that it's like, am I the asshole series?
- [28:06]
Nick Verge
Oh, okay. Got you. Gotcha. Yeah. She's like breaking down people's relationships.
- [28:09]
Emma Rainville
She's like, she's like, well, from Bridezillas to family issues. It's just so entertaining. It makes you feel so good about yourself in your life. Just fun fact. It's the only thing I do that's a total waste of absolute time.
- [28:21]
Nick Verge
I have some things like that too.
- [28:23]
Emma Rainville
Yeah. Whenever I have to feel good about myself.
- [28:26]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Right, Right. Number three, we said to use testimonials and case studies to eliminate doubt. Yeah. You know what I also think with info that they do often, I think is so dumb, is they'll do a testimonial with the business owner. Like, it's like a split screen zoom and the business owner saying something and then the guy's saying something positive. I'm like, cut them out. Well, just get them, dude. Of course they're going to say something positive. You're there.
- [28:48]
Emma Rainville
You can just have the person.
- [28:49]
Nick Verge
Exactly.
- [28:49]
Emma Rainville
That's what we do.
- [28:50]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [28:50]
Emma Rainville
We could just have the person just have that.
- [28:52]
Nick Verge
Their name and all that.
- [28:54]
Emma Rainville
And it's so more. It's so much more valuable.
- [28:56]
Nick Verge
Yeah. When it's just the. It feels like the person, if you.
- [28:59]
Emma Rainville
Really want to go a step further, have someone else. So that way they're saying, nick's product, Nick's program, Nyx. Because when they're using it, if the person's there and I'm not going to Use it. So they've helped the status of that person when you have like I've gotten to so many fights about having the business owner or the influencer or the spokesperson getting on with people. I think it's a very, very, very foolish thing.
- [29:23]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [29:24]
Emma Rainville
For a plethora of reasons, but go ahead.
- [29:25]
Nick Verge
Absolutely. Yeah. So I would say definitely testimonials, case studies, doing them the right way. Then we got implementing urgency and exclusivity without feeling pushy. You know, it's like I think that if you're going to create urgency, like a lot of marketers don't really care and they're just like, they do fake urgency on it. I understand with certain companies that aren't really optimizing for LTV, they optimize for AOV. Like a lot of ClickBank offers are like that. They like, they know the guys are going to buy and never buy again, so they will use quote, unquote, fake scarcity. I'm not the biggest believer. That's why I don't really work with a lot of clickbank offers is I think it's a little bit more aggressive. I'm friends with a lot of them because they're hilarious people, but I'm not going to touch their offers at all.
- [30:08]
Emma Rainville
You and I align on that scarce. Fake scarcity is also an FTC violation. So I, Yeah, I just don't want.
- [30:14]
Nick Verge
To end up in a deposition, you.
- [30:15]
Emma Rainville
Know, and it isn't even about that, man. Like, why there's scarcity that you can give people. Like, it's real. Yeah, that's real. That's like, if you don't implement these three things in your business in a new a world, you're going to get left behind. That's real and that's helpful.
- [30:30]
Nick Verge
Yeah, yeah.
- [30:31]
Emma Rainville
Right.
- [30:31]
Nick Verge
Yeah. So just explain the stakes to people, I think is always massive. I don't have a ton to add there, but the last thing, future pacing. I can definitely speak to that by.
- [30:41]
Emma Rainville
The way, your YouTube channel talks about future pacing and I think three or four different videos that are older but they're really, really, really good the way you break it down. So if somebody wants more information, find Nick on YouTube, but go ahead.
- [30:53]
Nick Verge
Appreciate it. Yeah, Future pacing is being able to understand where the person's at, where they want to go and then what's happening right now. So what I do is I put them to, let's say this, picture this. And I like using picture this. Imagine this. And you can't.
- [31:11]
Emma Rainville
You've always done that. You know who you Remind me of Sophia from Golden Girls. Picture this.
- [31:16]
Nick Verge
Picture this, Sicily, 1920s. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Exactly, exactly. So I'll use words like that, but I make sure to do it later after I've built trust. Because if you're within 30 seconds of the VSL saying picture this, no, there's so much resistance. I know what you're trying to do, but when you've built up all this emotion and everything, then I can use it. So I'll say like. And I'll say it like this. I'll say, picture this six months from now and you're standing on the scale and you are looking at the lowest weight that you've seen in years. And you're gonna remember that that number that you're staring at was a byproduct of the decision that you made right now. You're staring at this screen right now thinking, is this what you want to do? Is this another scam? Is this this whatever. So you see how we're going. We went there, then we came back, then I went into the screen and then I say that and everything was about the decision you made. Now but imagine this, a route where you don't make the decision and you're staring at that scale. It's not what you want and it's more than you've ever seen before. And you're going to think back to this moment as well. So I go boom, boom, boom, boom. I just like their RAs, their reticular activating system. I just scrambled it because I took them to so many locations. So what I want to do with future pacing is put them to the future destination, bring them back, put them back there, then bring them back and tell them that it's the decision right now that you make and what's going to happen actually though, because you know, like I used to feel bad when it was like, product, they're not going to use the product or whatnot. And then I realized I sold low ticket products, I sold high ticket products, I sold one on one consulting, I sold this. It, like didn't matter what it was. Except for one on one consulting is a little bit different. Most products, just like 10% of people actually use the product and do the thing. It doesn't matter whether it's a course or supplement. Dan Kennedy said once that 10% of people actually unwrapped the DVDs he was sending. And it's like he explained it as you kind of need to be almost as he called it, an ethical predator in that I'm going to. I'm a business owner. I'm going to be a capitalist and go for this. But I'm going to sell the thing with the hopes that if you do this, you're going to get the result.
- [33:23]
Emma Rainville
But the understanding that they're adults.
- [33:25]
Nick Verge
Yes.
- [33:26]
Emma Rainville
You need to make responsible for their own outcomes.
- [33:28]
Nick Verge
Absolutely.
- [33:28]
Emma Rainville
You're responsible for putting good products in their hands. They're responsible for using it and implementing.
- [33:33]
Nick Verge
Yes.
- [33:33]
Emma Rainville
Period.
- [33:33]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [33:34]
Emma Rainville
So I feel really good about everything. I said yes.
- [33:37]
Nick Verge
Yeah. And I don't want to feel bad about anything. We talked about that a little bit. So I think that taking them to that point, because you can actually program that. Everything's programmable. Behaviors are all programmable. And so I could actually be the reason why that person lost that way. And they will think back and that will happen. Now. That's the ideal. Now, is everyone gonna hit that? I hope they do and they won't. It's okay. I like, accept it kind of. So I like using future pacing to program the person to an idea of success and that they can make this happen because it's that last little bit of resistance that people have. Am I actually gonna take the pills? Am I actually gonna do this? Am I actually gonna, you know, invest this way? Am I actually gonna. Whatever. And just really putting them in that setting where it's like, you know, we talked about what they want. Really? Like, what are they trying to get? Where are they trying to go? That. That can be real. But it starts with the decision you make right now. And so if you look below this video, there's a button. Click it, give me your credit card. Like something like, you know, you gotta get like that. But yeah, that's. That's how I think about it. I think those are great five steps for it. I think step one is the most important thing. Just, just. And you know what I saw someone do that was such a great offer. He said, I'm gonna. He said, I'll get drunk and go through your website. So he'll literally buy your product after drinking, like, a copious amount of alcohol. And I thought that was hilarious. I'm like, yeah, if a drunk person can't navigate the website, yeah, that's really smart. So he did that as an offer and he sold CRO on the back end of that. So that was his YouTube channel. It was just him being wasted just reviewing people's websites.
- [35:07]
Emma Rainville
Send that to me. I want to watch that.
- [35:08]
Nick Verge
That's great.
- [35:08]
Emma Rainville
Yeah, I definitely want to watch that. I love that.
- [35:11]
Nick Verge
So that's Kind of how I would go about hire outside people to do it. Even, like, what I like doing is I'll sometimes send my mom stuff. Hey, what's your thoughts on this?
- [35:19]
Emma Rainville
That's. That's my favorite. We have the rents get my rental parents. My parents are no longer living, so I have my rental parents, my aunt and uncle, and I'll send them.
- [35:28]
Nick Verge
Yeah.
- [35:29]
Emma Rainville
And I want. They can't use Uber. We go and travel, and they want to travel with us because they don't have the Uber app. I'm not joking.
- [35:35]
Nick Verge
Yeah. Okay.
- [35:35]
Emma Rainville
Love them. But if I. If I have any, like, this feels really good to me. Customer service went through it, everybody. But it's not. I'll send it to them, and I'll be like, hey, can you go buy this? Here's a. You know, I give them a pecs card. Here's a PEX card. Go buy this. And if they can't tell me what they bought and they can't navigate it.
- [35:54]
Nick Verge
In four minutes, yeah, there's something up there.
- [35:57]
Emma Rainville
We got it. We got to go, and we got to fix it.
- [35:59]
Nick Verge
So hire someone to do that. And then as well, the research. I. I will die on that hill. It's research, research, research. If. If a client will hire me, and they'll want a vsl, and they'll be like, when can you get it done? I'm like, well, we're gonna do two weeks of research before we even start. Well, can we get it done sooner? Can we get it. Do you want it done right or do you want it done right? I want it done right. Okay, then I need my research time. And I also have other things I'm managing. I can't just, like, if you want to pay for the schedule to get cleared, cool, I'll send you an invoice for that. You know, we dug 10 times as much as this, but that's kind of the way I look at it, is I need enough time to one process everything and then as well think about it, because there's, like, that time when I'm just, like, on a walk that is just. Oh, boom, there. Yeah, that's right. And I'll connect the two dots. So a lot of it is that focused action of getting the reviews, and then as well, the time to think about it as well. Diffuse thinking around it.
- [36:44]
Emma Rainville
Love it. Nick, how do people find you?
- [36:47]
Nick Verge
Nick Verge on pretty much everything from Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, all that. Nickverge.com and I C K V as in victory. E r g e dot com. I'm send my email there nickvergemail.com so you can find me on nickverge.com join my newsletter there. If you go to nickverge.com gig gigadoc g I g a doc I have a 97 page document that breaks down everything I know about direct response copy gives the entire process from start to finish. You could literally plug it into ChatGPT and start writing better copy with that. But that document is super valuable. So either one of those ones will get you on my email list and that's the best way to go about it.
- [37:22]
Emma Rainville
I love that. Thank you so much Nick. It's been. Thank you for coming back and I see you coming back a whole bunch. I hope.
- [37:28]
Nick Verge
Ah, I'd love to.
- [37:29]
Emma Rainville
I hope you would.
- [37:30]
Nick Verge
Yeah. These are great. These were great topics and I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed everything that we laid out here. This was awesome.
- [37:35]
Emma Rainville
Yeah. Thank you. People say no when they're unsure, when they don't see the value, or when they don't trust the process. Fix those and sales become effortless. If you enjoyed this podcast today, Please go to www.specialopspodcast.com, sign up in our members area called the Visionary Vault and get the free psychological sales trigger sheet. Subscribe for more expert insights on marketing, psychology, persuasion, operations and all the things, things.