You’re Losing Customers Because of This One Psychological Mistake (Fix It Now)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Special Ops – "You’re Losing Customers Because of This One Psychological Mistake (Fix It Now)"

Release Date: April 1, 2025

In this compelling episode of Special Ops, host Emma Rainville delves deep into the realm of marketing psychology with seasoned expert Nick Verge. Together, they uncover a hidden psychological pitfall that may be silently undermining your business’s ability to convert customers. By addressing this critical mistake, Emma and Nick argue that businesses can potentially double their sales overnight.

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1. Introduction to the Psychological Mistake

Emma Rainville opens the episode by highlighting a common yet often overlooked mistake that businesses make, leading to lost customers and stagnant conversions.

Emma (00:02): "If you're losing customers, it’s not because your product sucks. It’s because your messaging isn't triggering the right emotional response."

With Nick Verge joining as the guest, Emma sets the stage for a deep dive into understanding and rectifying this mistake.

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2. Unpacking the Psychological Components

Nick Verge explains that many marketers misunderstand marketing psychology, assuming it solely revolves around why people make purchases. He emphasizes the importance of a multifaceted approach rooted in foundational psychology principles.

Nick (00:58): "Most people are just hitting the conscious. So this is logical arguments and whatnot. Very few brands do what Harley Davidson does... they connect on subconscious levels."

Drawing from Jung's theories, Nick breaks down the ego into four components: unconscious, conscious, psychic, and somatic. He asserts that effective marketing must address all these aspects to fully resonate with the audience.

Nick (03:08): "The number one mistake is really just that they have a like a 25% of the way there kind of mentality. So they just do the logical argument, but they don't hit that remaining 75%."

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3. Case Study: Revamping Timurigo's Offer

Emma and Nick discuss a real-world example involving Timurigo, a psychologist who created an offer called Beyond Driven aimed at helping individuals overcome addiction. Initially, the offer was generating $60,000 per month but wasn't performing optimally.

Nick (05:43): "They were doing about 60,000 a month, and they felt like there was something off with the messaging."

Through meticulous research and understanding the emotional drivers of Timurigo's target audience, Nick restructured the messaging to focus on internal peace over mere addiction recovery. This pivot led to a dramatic increase in revenue, scaling the offer to approximately $400,000 monthly.

Nick (11:48): "They scaled aggressively with the new messaging. They're still consistently hitting every month because they started speaking to a bigger problem."

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4. Emotions vs. Logic in Messaging: B2C vs. B2B

The conversation shifts to the distinction between B2C and B2B marketing strategies, emphasizing the varying roles of emotion and logic.

Nick (27:02): "B2C market buys the emotions first and logic second. Whereas a B2B is logic first, emotion second."

Nick elaborates that while consumers are more driven by emotional triggers, businesses prioritize logical reasoning. Understanding this difference is pivotal for crafting effective marketing messages tailored to each audience type.

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5. Emma’s Four-Step Framework to Fix Messaging

Emma presents a structured approach to address the identified psychological mistake, outlining four actionable steps:

1. Research Your Audience's Emotional Pain Points

   Emma (30:43): "Step one is research your audience's emotional pain points. Not just what they say, but what they feel."

2. Rewrite Your Messaging in Their Words

   Emma (31:11): "Rewrite your messaging in their words... speak in their terminology."

3. Inject Urgency Naturally Without Fake Scarcity

   Emma (32:44): "Inject urgency naturally without fake scarcity tactics that turn people off."

4. Test and Optimize Simple A/B Tests for Instant Conversion Lifts

   Emma (33:08): "Test and optimize simple AB tests that show instant conversion lifts."

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6. Nick’s Insights and Enhancements to the Framework

Nick Verge agrees with Emma’s framework and provides additional insights to enhance each step:

• Research Enhancements: Nick suggests reaching out to top customers, even offering incentives, to gain deeper insights.

  Nick (33:44): "If it's an E-commerce product and you have people who are buying multiple times, I'd reach out to those people."

• Messaging Refinement: Emphasizes tailoring language based on regional and demographic nuances to ensure relatability.

  Nick (35:45): "How do each one of these people speak?... craft the messaging based on that specific ICP."

• Urgency and Offer Improvement: Recommends refining the offer itself, adding value without alienating the audience.

  Nick (38:21): "Sometimes with the invite or the paperwork, it takes a little bit to hear back... set up Automations."

• Testing and Optimization: Advocates for a collaborative approach between copywriters and media buyers to ensure cohesive messaging.

  Nick (40:34): "Testing, optimizing is just like great when you have an in-house team... I'm the one steering the ship."

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7. Conclusion and Resources

As the episode wraps up, Emma and Nick reiterate the importance of aligning messaging with the audience’s emotional and psychological drivers. Emma encourages listeners to implement the discussed strategies to enhance their business operations and customer conversions.

Emma (45:25): "If you're struggling to convert customers, it's not because your product sucks. It's because your messaging isn't triggering the right emotional response."

For those eager to implement these insights, both Emma and Nick provide valuable resources:

• Download the Psychological Triggers Cheat Sheet at www.specialopspodcast.com.
• Connect with Nick Verge through his website nickverge.com, YouTube channel, Instagram, and Facebook.

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Notable Quotes

• Emma (00:02): "If you're losing customers, it’s not because your product sucks. It’s because your messaging isn't triggering the right emotional response."
• Nick (00:58): "Most people are just hitting the conscious... Very few brands do what Harley Davidson does... they connect on subconscious levels."
• Nick (03:08): "The number one mistake is really just that they have a like a 25% of the way there kind of mentality."
• Emma (30:43): "Step one is research your audience's emotional pain points. Not just what they say, but what they feel."
• Nick (35:45): "How do each one of these people speak?... craft the messaging based on that specific ICP."
• Emma (45:25): "If you're struggling to convert customers, it's not because your product sucks. It's because your messaging isn't triggering the right emotional response."

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Special Ops serves as a vital guide for business owners and marketers aiming to refine their messaging strategies. By addressing the nuanced psychological aspects of consumer behavior, Emma Rainville and Nick Verge provide actionable insights that can transform business operations and significantly boost customer conversions.

For more actionable strategies and in-depth discussions on growing your business through tactical approaches, subscribe to Special Ops on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube, and take advantage of the free resources available at www.specialopspodcast.com.

Transcript

[A]

Losing customers and don't know why. There's one critical mistake that silently tanking your conversions and fixing it could 2x your sales overnight. Nick, Verge and I are about to break it down. Plus, we'll give you an actionable cheat sheet to apply this today. Grab the Psychological Triggers cheat sheet at www.specialopspodcast.com for step by step implementation. Nick, I am so excited to have you.

[B]

Likewise. I'm excited to be here.

[A]

So. So I'm going to jump right in. We are covering a really awesome topic. You're losing customers because of this one psychological mistake and fix it now. You are certainly one of the few experts in marketing psychology for direct response, e commerce influencer marketing. You're young as hell. You've been incredibly influential in the space. So we're stoked. Tell me, what's the one mistake?

[B]

I think it's actually like, not really understanding the fact that there's multiple components of marketing psychology. I think people think marketing psychology is just why people buy. But then you have to really unpack that question. So I like to just go to actual psychology and kind of not open up a marketing psychology book. I don't really want to like, I love Dan Kennedy. I love all these guys, but why not go to the source? So like, I went to Jung. I really wanted to understand, like, what did Jung think? So, like, Jung believed that the ego was kind of the main thing that was the driver for us. And the ego is comprised of the unconscious, the conscious, the psychic, and the somatic. And so if you think about each four of those things, it's almost like checkboxes they have to hit. Most people are just hitting the conscious. So this is logical arguments and whatnot. Very few brands kind of do what like Harley Davidson does. Like, when we think Harley Davidson, we think of a rebel. Like, like someone that's like, they got the vest on and like they're, you know, they're like a rebel to society. When you think of Apple, you kind of think of Steve Jobs and you think of more of like the techie people and people are more creatives. So that unconscious is like, how do you do that? Through your branding, through the way you speak, through the logos and everything. But then somatic, like, how are you making people feel something while they're actually watching your stuff? And psychic, how are you talking to specific frequencies of thought through what you're saying and understanding where your audience is gonna land? So I find that the number one mistake is really just that they have a like a 25% of the way there kind of mentality. So they just do the logical argument, but they don't hit that remaining 75%. And so it's not that their marketing doesn't work. I hate to say that, because if it works, it works. You know, I saw a great thing from David Deutsch today where he said that someone he was one time bringing coffee copy to, he said, do you like it? He goes, I really don't, but if it works, I don't care. Like, he doesn't really care. And I think it's very accurate. I like to look at things as it works at a diminished rate compared to what it could work work at. It could be working almost like 300% better if we added in more of those factors. So I think really that's what it is, is only focusing on either a very emotional copy or B very logical copy when there's a lot more that we can touch on in between those, like, four different areas that Jung called the ego.

[A]

Oh, wow. It was a lot. That was a lot. That's phenomenal. Talk to me in practice. So you've worked with some of the biggest names in the space. You've been the guy behind the biggest names in this space. I love having people on that. No one really knows who they are, but they're the driver of so much you've come into. And I don't want to absolutely don't want to, like, blast who your clients are, but you've come into some of the most tanked offers and like, lit them on fire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you, in theory, kind of walk us through how you do that?

[B]

You want me to give, like, a case study example?

[A]

I would love to. I know that you can't necessarily.

[B]

I'll pick the one that I can. You know, there's perfect. There's certain ones I can't, but there's certain ones I totally can. Funny enough, speaking of psychology, the client that I'm going to mention, his name is Timurigo. He is a brilliant psychologist. I think that he's going to be wildly famous. Like he, he is. He is so smart.

[A]

Timothy Rigo.

[B]

Tim. Tim Arrigo. So T I M I A R R I G O. He's a brilliant psychologist. And so originally the way that he got into this was he was, like addicted to methadone and, like a lot of really hard drugs. And so he wanted to get himself off of it. And the way that he did that was going down a clinical psychology route. And so he learned a lot.

[A]

Methadone like heroin. Like heroin replacement?

[B]

Yes. Hard drugs.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And so he got himself clean. And then I think he was working at halfway homes and helping other people get clean. And he developed such a skill for this of how to help people analyze why they were making the bad decisions. And he started getting fairly viral on social media. And he started an offer called Beyond Driven, where he was trying to help people break out of addictions. When I came into the offer, they were doing about 60,000amonth, and they felt like there was something off with the messaging. I met the publisher. It's actually at the event you and I were at. It was the one with that Stefan hosted. I think it was a CA event.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We've been to a few events together. Yeah.

[B]

So I think it was a CA. One that was in Austin.

[A]

Austin at the Marriott.

[B]

Yeah. So the thing that they felt was that their offer was speaking to the wrong audience. And usually I feel like all business owners, they have this gut intuition of, like, they feel like, oh, this is kind of what's not right right now. And so if I. If I hire someone, I think they can confirm what I'm feeling right now through, like, logic and proof. But they were feeling like, I think we should be going after more successful people. We're going after people who are addicts.

[A]

And unfortunately, addicts, they don't have money.

[B]

They don't have money enough for a high ticket program or anything like that. So I basically did research on there, and that's the number one thing I do with everyone to start, is I start with research because.

[A]

Can we talk about your research process? Because you and I spoke about this, I want to say, four years ago, when you were on my original podcast.

[B]

Oh, I don't remember what I said. I probably said some crazy stuff.

[A]

I could never post it.

[B]

Oh, did I say something wild?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

It's okay. Yeah, Great. It was a great learning hour for me. I got to learn for free.

[B]

Well, you got to see Unrefined Nick. That was like. I was. I was 21, maybe. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was brilliant stuff. But you said some things about some people I knew would come back to bite us both, so.

[B]

Okay. Appreciate you. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because I'm not 20.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, you got it. Yeah.

[A]

But anyway, so you were talking to me about your process of research, and it was so similar to, like a method actor who has to, like, get into the role of the person that they're about to play. You kind of get yourself into the headspace and the role of the buyer. Talk me through. I really want to hear about that.

[B]

Well, I need to know what they're thinking and like, what are they going through. So, I mean, like, if I can get on phone calls, I prefer that 10 times out of 10 over everything I like, you know, like a lot of copywriters will be like, just read Amazon reviews or whatnot.

[A]

Read it.

[B]

Yeah, it's great, but it's static and so I can't ask further questions and I can't ask, how did that make you feel and why did you feel, you know, like I can't go down like a rabbit hole with the person. So I prefer to first do. Do like five to eight phone calls.

[A]

And I asked for current customers.

[B]

Yeah, like. Like I want different archetypes, though. Don't just give me the same person. Cause you likely like how I look at it is a lot of the times think about it like oil, the customer is or the client, like the business owner. They found oil in one area, so one customer base. And then they're like, well, but there's more oil around there. But we're tapping right here. And this is working really well.

[A]

So I'm only gonna tap this one.

[B]

Yes. When there's five to six other people and they're sometimes hitting these other oil, but if they actually put a drill there, they get way more oil.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I try and get like the 4 to 5 ICPs, the ideal customer profiles that they have. And when I talk to them, I just psychoanalyze them. Like, I don't. Like people probably have a methodology for it. I just ask kind of intrusive questions and I tell them, this is a safe space.

[A]

You let the conversation drive you.

[B]

Yeah. I want to know, why do you think that and what happened here and what were you thinking at this moment, et cetera. And so with their audience, I said, just connect me with five of your best customers who got the best results. And all of these guys were either a. A seven to nine figure business owner. All of them were married. All them. When I brought up addiction as the problem, every single one of them said they didn't feel like it was a problem. It was like it was a problem.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Their problem was that their wife wouldn't stop complaining. Complaining about nagging, whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they felt like they were getting in so many fights.

[A]

Functional addicts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Are the hardest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are the hardest.

[B]

Yeah. That's like. And. And I really related with it because I kind of came from that background. Like, my dad was a little bit like that. So I Can see what denial looks like a bit.

[A]

Right. And it was, I work the hardest, I make tons of money. I'm the first one up, I'm the last one off. Yeah, what is the problem?

[B]

Yeah, why can't I just drink five scotches tonight? You know, like.

[A]

Or 18. Yeah, yeah, that's my back. Exactly. Right.

[B]

So, yeah, so I was just, I was talking to them across the board and I'll never forget, it was actually at a traffic and conversion summit in San Diego. I remember my friend was in the, in the other room and I was sitting there on the call on Zoom and with this guy. And this guy's like a steel company. They're doing like nine figures a year. They're massive. And he just, I asked him, like, well, you know, why was it that you decided to fix this? Like, you know, you've. You're on your third marriage. I'm sure you were like, I can find another girl. I don't need to do this.

[A]

I'm rich.

[B]

Yeah, you're rich. You're super successful. Why does it matter? And he just said, for the first time in my life, I wanted to like, really fix this. And I knew I was capable of fixing this. And I finally saw that it was me that was the issue and not everyone else. And I was like, boom, there we go.

[A]

That's the message.

[B]

So I started to find the. I look at it as like a through line. What is everyone saying? So, like, I have an offer right now that we're working on that's like a relocation service. So if you want to get like a visa in Europe, like, how do you go about doing that? And they have a great offer. And when I'm interviewing everyone, what everyone feels like, Cause it's a lot of LGBTQ crowd and a lot of more liberal leaning people. They don't feel safe in America. Everyone says that I can sit here, you know, I.

[A]

So let me go to a place that isn't actually safe.

[B]

You know, that's what I mean. Like, you, you.

[A]

I'm a liberal, by the way, but it's.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like I could sit here and disagree with that person. But the reason why I try and be as unbiased as possible in there is because I can't project. If I project my reality onto them and say, like, surely you don't feel XYZ or whatever. They're going to. They're going to react based on that question.

[A]

Right? You have to be open ended. There's no, there's no judgment. This is just absorption.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So after I kind of get that through line and I understand who the person is, I just really try and understand what it feels like in a. Just from the feeling itself. For a lot of these guys, it's pride. So for that, that beyond driven offer, it was pride. They, they had so much pride in their system and they want peace because they like, they work all day. But what is stopping them from, you know, getting that, like, what's that gap right there? And it's them like that guy said it so well. I finally realized it was me. So I went to the offer owners, I said, okay, here's what I found. I really do think that the best thing that we could do is reshape the messaging. And I want to appeal more to wealthy individuals and I want to talk about how they have created a perfect external world for themselves. But because their internal world is chaotic, everything else is chaotic. And we called it, the mechanism was the inside out method. You have to go inside first before the outside can be perfect. You can't just buy everything like that's gonna go wrong. So they scaled aggressively with the new messaging. They're still to this day. That's what I like about them. There's some guys who will scale boop. Back down, you know, right after because they couldn't take the operational logistical intensity of everything. And you'd hire someone like you to come in and like, you know, it's.

[A]

Why I make money.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So shh.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

You go keep helping them and then leave them my card.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. I'll slide it. Yeah. But they, they, they scaled to right about, from 60,000 to right around. I believe last time we talked was like, it was close to like 400. And they're consistently hitting every month too. It's not like 450, 2400. Like they're hitting it every month because they're, I mean the guy who's running it is a genius. Like, he's genuinely a phenomenal business owner. Both the guy who's the face of it and the operator behind it, they're, they're just phenomenal people. And I think Tim Julian, all them, like, they're just really good people and they care about their audience a lot. So they really, the thing that got them from that point, I think from 60 to that, I think it was whatever, 340, 400. I don't check every day with what my clients revenue is, but I think a lot of what it was was that they started speaking to a bigger problem because it's like, yes, addiction is a very big problem everywhere. But for a man who's successful, who now it's like his marriage is on the line, another divorce, another. I have to take half my kids. My kids don't like me and everything. That's such a bigger problem. And all I did was just speak to. What's that gap right there? What's that? Like, literally just talking with Tim, you know, and figuring out what's his methodology. Because I can't just come up with everything. I have to, like, base it off of what their stuff is. You know, I just got really clear on what his thing was. Like, what his. What his MO Was, what was it? And his was about inner peace, to create external peace in the world. And I was at a event with Taylor Welch, probably about. I would say this is probably about, like, a year ago. Yeah. Cause it was around February. So fricking cold in Nashville. It's just. I remember that specifically, is how cold it was. And Tim was.

[A]

I forgot that you were so sensory when you recall, you're so sensory.

[B]

Yeah, I forgot about that. I just, like, everything is like. It's what I remember that's interesting. Yeah.

[A]

But, you know, you're like. If you pay attention, you're like this whenever you recall things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's what something tasted like, what something smelled like, or how cold or hot it was.

[B]

Yeah, the somatic.

[A]

You're very, very sensory. It's like you go back in that moment.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that specifically. But, Tim, we were at dinner and we were just eating some steaks, and he looked over at me and he was just like. You know, we were talking about the offer, and he was like, dude, like, I want you to know, like, there's literally hundreds of men that have saved their marriage because of, like, the inside out method. And he's like, like, there's over 400 men that you've saved their marriage because of the way you structured our messaging. And that, to me means more like, obviously the revenue for numbers and being able to add it to my portfolio. It's great. But I really like working with offers that help. That really help people. And that's just a perfect example of, like, again, that's what I meant by they had a gut feeling, but they didn't know how to, like, crystallize the thoughts, like, what was wrong there? And that's what I mean by you have these four different aspects of the ego. So they were really talking to, like, the logic. But what they weren't experiencing or explaining I should say is the emotions, like the psychic factor of things where you work hard, man, you provide for everything. Like you said, you work. You're the first one in for last one out. You've built this company, you pay for everything. You know, shouldn't they appreciate you? Why don't they appreciate you?

[A]

How can you say anything to me when I earn more than you? When I burn both ends of the candle better than you do? I'm in total. I'm in total control. My one thing is that I do X at night when I'm not required to do anything else. What's the problem? What's problem? So, yeah, that's it.

[B]

Yeah, it was like.

[A]

It's really, that's a really hard spot to be in. A functional addict is the worst person to deal with successful functionality, right? Well, a high earning, successful, functioning addict is the worst human being on the planet to deal with because there's nothing that you can say.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's hard. It's really hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that was a, that was a perfect example of how we spoke more into that frequency of thought that they were in that psychic factor. And then the somatic factor, you know, kind of the more feeling, you know, I told Tim because Tim's a very intense guy. Like when he sits there, he looks at you like this the entire thing. He realizes that I don't even think he's consciously doing. I think it's just who he is. But I told him, like, I want the vsl you staring straight in their soul because your eyes are so piercing. There's a feeling to it. And I feel like the language that we use was very much so around like that gut wrenching feeling like, et cetera, like we really want to focus on the feelings with it. And then with the branding itself, I felt like that's the unconscious beyond driven to me. Doesn't feel like a get clean program. That feels like a dude. You're, you're beyond driven. You, you're outside of the normal realm of success. But yet it's not right. Still, like things aren't right. It felt like that subconsciously spoke more to the really successful guys than just people who wanted to get clean. So I looked at those four factors and as well, the logical arguments of like, you know, how much does a divorce cost? How much is your divorce going to cost? You know, and all those logical factors.

[A]

Killer.

[B]

Yeah, we're not going to say that on the vso. I think Meta wouldn't like that all that much. Probably not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But those, those four, those four things touching on all four of those factors. It's kind of what I like to do with clients is we're missing something here. Either you're not explaining their emotions properly. Your logical argument, like, I think about that as really like a lawyer. Like, you're just, it's like that wouldn't even pass in a jury where you can't really use like emotions in the court. You kind of can.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's way more about the logic of what happened and then just the other parts of it. You know, the more we touch on those things, the easier it is. So, you know, they went from. What are they? That's like about like a 400, 400% increase in their business. So I like how marketers will really focus on like, you know, I, I implemented this one AOV change on the offer and as a result, we increased the take rate by 10%. And it's like, that's awesome. That's great. I found that those little CRO changes are great, but the massive 400%, 500%, I've had some offers that literally have gone from like 100,000 all the way up to like a million. How do we do that? Well, a big part of that is massive changes. Like, you can't, you can't CRO your way to a massive 500% increase unless you're already not doing enough. If you're doing like $10 a day and then to get to a thousand. Right? Sure, yeah. But when you're at big numbers and you're already at a six figure monthly run rate, you know, to really start growing, it's got to be big changes. And it's just like, you know, the. What got you to where you're at is not going to get you to where you need to go. And I think about that with messaging. The messaging that got you to 100k a month is not going to get you to a mill. It's not going to get you to 2 mil and whatnot. It has to be refined and changed because you have more data now than anything. Like the ads, the applications, all the customers. It's just data. Let's use this data now to craft a better message that will actually speak out to the audience and also break out of message fatigue as well. Because sometimes just same message over and over and over again, stop to work.

[A]

Right. I don't know if you remember this or not. We were in San Diego together.

[B]

Was it. What event was it? I think it was Stefan's first event.

[A]

No it was Glenn Ledwell's event. Flight club.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

And it was the night of like the. I think you called it the gluttonous pizza party.

[B]

That sounds very on par with Nicholas.

[A]

Well, I was standing outside drinking tequila because I didn't want to be in a suite with 80 people shoving pizza. And so you walked out and you were like, what the fuck is this gluttonous pizza party? And we sat there talking for a while with one of the guys from Agora. Not Agora, clickbank. And so the three of us were chatting and you said something that I thought was so interesting. You were talking about how you don't. He thought you directed VSLs. You direct your VSLs because you want to make sure that all your messaging is portrayed correctly and explain that. And what you told him was my super. He asked what your superpower was and you said, my superpower is that I peel off the skin of the visionary I'm working with and I wear it and I get to know them better than they know themselves. And then when I'm done wearing that uniform, I go into their customer and I wear the skin of the customer until I get to know them better than I know them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you just kind of walked away. Mic drop. But I was like, that's really, really interesting to mesh the two people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that you can connect them on the marketing and the sales. And so thank you for sharing all of this. It's.

[B]

Yeah. That's more for like the influencer based brands, you know? You know, it's like with the. When it's more of a product based band, it's just understanding what the, you know, what does the business owner want for their brand? It's a little bit different when it's a personality behind it.

[A]

Yeah. I'd like you to talk for a moment before we get to, you know, the instant fix about why we need to be selling feelings first and facts second.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you understand what I mean by that?

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's like the, the, the logic is what people use to justify their purchase. The emotions are what get them to actually pay attention. So, like, we live in a world where like, ridiculousness is just normal. It's like we live in a kind of a circus. Like, think about how much it takes to get your attention nowadays. Like, we've normalized seeing all sorts of crazy stuff. I was watching a comedian the other day. He said, yeah, I start my morning and I open up my phone. I watched 16 fights on my Instagram. And then from there I watched like three, like international crimes and, you know, it's just endless, just craziness. So, you know, what people are seeing on a day by day basis. Instagram, Reels, YouTube, YouTube shorts. I think the short form stuff has definitely accelerated all this. But, you know, the thing that's gonna get someone to pay attention is you explaining their current situation better than they could themselves. So how do we figure out what that is? Well, research, there's that. But emotions more than anything, because we're. Nikola Tesla said that if you wanna understand the universe, you think about it in terms of frequency, energy and vibration. And I think that everything is a frequency. Like thoughts are frequencies. And that's what, you know, when I say this, the psychic factors that Jung was talking about. Have you ever read like David Hawkins's work with, you know, like power versus force? Yeah. So he talked about this with that frequency scale and I think it was one of the better explanations. And it's in English and not translated from German, Swiss to English. So it like makes a lot more sense. And he broke down each one of these emotions. And I feel like most people, what they're doing is oscillating between two different frequencies and maybe they get like a, a touch of a higher frequency and they want more of that. They're like, I want, I want that. But then they get put back down or they have a vision. They say, wow, that's, that's not me, or whatever. And so those different frequencies are what are operating up here in our mind. And that's what's constantly going on at all times. Like everyone's living a story at all times. And most people are in total denial of their emotions. They just suppress it and suppress it and they. Especially when it's bad emotions, like, people don't want to really admit. I'm afraid to like, do xyz. I'm afraid to lose weight or I'm afraid to actually.

[A]

Are they afraid to lose weight or are they afraid to fail?

[B]

It's, you know, right. It's like, what is it? They're afraid that if I go down that journey of losing weight that I'm going to. It's going to be difficult. I'm not going to get to do this. I'm going to have to change. I'm going to fail. This, this, this. There's like a million fears associated with that.

[A]

I think just my.

[B]

Yeah, please.

[A]

I think that there's a. Everybody when they have. Gosh, I'm trying to get my head together. You know, when your words come so fast into your brain.

[B]

We're talking about some very, like. Right. Brain stuff.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I have an issue, a problem, something. A block. Whether it be that I'm overweight or I have an addiction or that I can't. I'm not making good money. There's. Generally, as a human being, we have an excuse that makes it not our fault.

[B]

Projection. Yeah.

[A]

Correct. And so if you have a thing that I can do that makes me lose weight, that doesn't connect with the thing that I think is at fault, does that make sense? I'm 100 pounds overweight because of hypothyroidism, but you want me to eat healthy and exercise every day, so that shouldn't be fixing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So now I can't take you up on your offer. However, your thyroid and your hormones are causing you to be overweight.

[B]

Oh, now there's a thing that's causing it. Yeah.

[A]

I know how you can eat and exercise to put your hormones back in check. Now. It wasn't my fault the whole time.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So if that makes sense to you.

[B]

It does. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[A]

I've spent a lot of time studying that. How do I allow the person to not take responsibility or blame.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Still blame it on something else and have the trigger that will connect for them. And we do a lot of that through quiz funnels. Understanding. So when, if I may, please.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When we're going through. If I got a product that's doing good and it's like 15 million, I know that I can get it to, like, 50 million by creating more mechanisms and so on the front end. And we'll stay on weight loss on the front end. If I say, Nick, are you struggling with. You're not Nick. You're Nicole. You're Nicole. No, you're nicole, and you're 50 years old. Are you struggling from weight loss because of your hormones? Because of menopause? Because you have young children and you just don't have the time or energy to put into it? I'm giving you five or six different reasons. And what I'm doing is I'm setting up the VSL that you're gonna see.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Because the VSL that you're gonna see at the very beginning is gonna blame the problem. You're the problem is the problem. And my solution is a deterrent to your problem. Like, it's not your fault. It's your metabolism. It's not your fault. It's your hormones. It's not your fault. It's menopause. But when I couple these foods together, it aligns your hormones that you can eat weight. No, it's not. I'm just giving you food that isn't fucking potato chips.

[B]

Yeah, exactly right.

[A]

I'm just making you get up and move your body for seven minutes. That's all it really takes, by the way. So does that make sense?

[B]

It absolutely does. I think that a lot of everything.

[A]

Revolves around now you can touch all five people.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Your different ICPs on that. I think that a lot of it revolves around. I mentioned it a little bit, the projection side of things. Like the way a projection works is you have the person and then maybe you have the other person. Let's just actually remove the other person and say it's the idea. So weight loss. Well then what people are doing is there's this intermediary in between which is their. Let's call it like idealized. Jung literally called it autoerotic fantasy, which is an interesting way to put it. I've. Yet it's a lot of his stuff. Like I said, I like that. Yeah, German, Swiss is very interesting to English and especially it's dependent on the. The translator. But that, that middle point is more what you're interacting with than the facts. Because if you give someone the facts, then they go immediately back to the projection. The. Oh no, it's not that everyone in my family had this or this one. It's like everyone in your family actually had bad habits. That's right.

[A]

That's why you have bad habits. Because they ate junk food. You had a snack cabinet.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In your house growing up. That's why you're overweight. Yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So there's not that you're Big bone.

[B]

No, it's not any of that. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the, the emotions like to go. To go to the question, you know, you were asking like, why do we sell with emotions first and logic second? Because the emotions are more what people are. They think it's logic, but it's really an emotional issue that's going on. The projection is, it's. It's almost like its own entity. It's its own thing. You have to speak more to the projection which you used in the form of mechanisms rather than speaking to the logic. Because like people like me who are very sophisticated in most like industry, I mean like oil, I don't know anything about, you know, I don't really know much about that. But in weight loss, in health and making money in business, I'm fairly sophisticated on these things. As you Move up further on a sophistication scale, or I would even say awareness scale. Then you can speak to more logic. Like, you and I are going to buy things a little bit more based off of, like, do I think this is going to help me, like, accelerate my business and get me grown.

[A]

Right. I'm not a consumer.

[B]

Yeah, we don't think that way. But even then, we could. We could then say that what swaps is that a B2C market buys the emotions first and logic second. Whereas a B2B is logic first, emotion second. Because then if I ask you, like, why do you want to grow your business? Well, money. Well, why?

[A]

The only reason.

[B]

Let's go down this.

[A]

Money.

[B]

Why, though?

[A]

Money.

[B]

But why do you need money?

[A]

Money.

[B]

But why more?

[A]

I don't know. I want more money. I just want more. I'm never going to be satisfied. More houses, more trips, more. And actually, what are those? I don't actually think that way at all.

[B]

What are those things provide most?

[A]

Stability.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Freedom.

[B]

Why do you need stability and freedom?

[A]

I don't want. I'm unemployable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's what it boils down to for most of us. I know I'm unemployable. I have to grow my business to continue to pay for things.

[B]

Yeah. Why not just be homeless and, like, do all that? Why, why, why have all this? Why do all this? Why not just be Buddhist and live in the middle of the forest? You know, comfort. Right. So it's peace. It's like, you know, we want peace. And so I think that every. Every B2B decision is peace. It's that they want to reinforce the identity of. I have worked too damn hard to build this business to be who I am, to ever lose. Like, we.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

You know what I mean? I don't like losing. I don't like losing. And so I look at the two markets, B2C and B2B, like that. It's just different consciousness levels. The B2C market is oftentimes lower consciousness. The B2B market is a little bit higher. Because, like, to grow a business and do this whole thing, you kind of need to be aware enough of your own weaknesses and your interactions with people. You get, like, greeted with the fact that. We were talking about that with me on your podcast the first time. I was probably saying some wild stuff. I can't remember it. I had to be.

[A]

I remember all of it.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, that's good to know. We'll talk about it after. But I had to be more aware as I got older. I was like, I can just go. Not everything, Nick, is a comedy podcast. Like, you have to be a little bit more aware of what you're doing. So self awareness is a big part of it. Self awareness is not a big part of the massive consumers. They just. It's just not part of it. So that's how I look at it. Depends on what market we're in. I will always B2B offers. We will talk about the logic up front, but really what it is, is.

[A]

It'S the emotions tapping into the emotions.

[B]

You want peace?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So I created four steps to help people fix this instantly in their business. I'm gonna read those off, and then I'm gonna let you just kind of say anything you have to say about it, whether you think I'm wrong. And that's totally okay, by the way. I know you will. It's okay. I have all the editing power, but. Or if you have anything to add to it. So step one is research your audience's emotional pain points. Not just what they say, but what they feel. And we've talked before, so I kind of knew how to put this together a little bit. And I'm on page two.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep. And so step two is rewrite your messaging in their words. I added that I've used this system now for a while. I added that that was actually one of your ideas. And I did this for a client of ours, and I took it a little bit far. So if you're a corporate graduate, you know, whatever, and your market doesn't speak like you and doesn't act like you, you need to speak and act like them. People want to relate.

[B]

I think that was my talk at Stefan's event.

[A]

It was in San Diego. And that was his first event in San Diego, separate from coffee accelerator.

[B]

Free event he did.

[A]

Yeah, it was just a free event he did. So you had talked about that. And so I actually took that a little bit further. And if you're targeting certain geographical areas, change your wording to what their wording would be. And so in the US Alone, like, people in the northern west coast speak very differently than the northern east coast. They use different terms. So speak in their terminology, but way more. Where we did it was in the uk, in South Africa. We sold a lot of fitness worldwide. And we change. Like, if you're using things like, oh, my God, this is going to be wicked awesome for you. Wicked awesome in South Africa actually means a lot of evil.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Wicked yeah. Okay.

[A]

Right. So. And we use that here. Right. In Florida, all the way up to northern pounds, basically. Right. And so, but in, but in the uk they talk about stones. Not even pounds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or kilograms. They're talking, when they're talking about weight, they're talking about stone. So when we did that shift, speaking in their words, it brought us a massive amount. So that's step two. Step three, inject urgency naturally without fake scarcity, tax it tactics that turn people off.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And step four, test and optimize simple AB tests that show instant conversion lifts. So if you hear the same messaging over and over and over again from your customer service and you want to change what you're doing, split test that. Don't just do it like split test it and see if you get a lift on that. And then can be controlled. Don't just change everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So those are my four steps. I'd love to hear your take on that.

[B]

Well, I agree with all of them. I'll add to them. And I would say like how I would, you know, maybe if we had like step one A B, you know, like different parts of it. So I feel like the. Researching the audience's emotional pain points, I would say that the best thing you can do is reach out to. If it's an E commerce product and you have people who are buying multiple times, I'd reach out to those people. Even if it's like an Amazon gift card or just something like just offer them something for their time if they're. I think with info it's a little bit easier than with E comm to get someone on a call because they've interacted with you.

[A]

Opposite.

[B]

Really? You think so?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Interesting. Yeah, I've had the exact opposite.

[A]

Because they're getting like you have them, they're getting something from you, they have something from you.

[B]

That's weird. I find it with the info people because they've usually spent time with the person.

[A]

What you do is you, you put a trigger in your CRM. So whether you Zendesk or Help Scout or whatever. Right. So you do a trigger on their fourth purchase. It automatically sends them a ringless voicemail that says, hey, Nick, you just bought Project Product X. I just wanted to chat with you about it really quick. Can you give me a call at 1-800-that's awesome. Whatever. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then you think that there's something going on with the product that I charged you for, so you call in. So we did, we had coaches and so the coaches would just always be on standby. They'd call into customer service. You'd say, hey, I just got this voicemail, told me to call in. Oh, hang on. That's actually Coach so and so wanted to chat with you. One moment.

[B]

That's smart. Yeah, I like that.

[A]

It just your rate of actually getting people on calls will love that.

[B]

Love that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that the research calls is, you know, just go get the best customers. Yeah. And try and get different ones. Get men, get women. Book five to 10 of them. And when you record them, you know, make sure that you're completely unbiased in them. Don't go into it with your thoughts. Don't ask close.

[A]

If you have an ego and emotional attachment to the product.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You shouldn't be the one getting on the call. Send someone who doesn't care.

[B]

I would agree with that. Get literally me on the call and do that. Because yeah, I think that what you're gonna do is then you're gonna. Because it may be you need to cut that product. It's a bad product and everyone's telling you the product's bad and it's causing this. Like, you need to have someone who can tell you that. So I would say then based on your calls, try and categorize it into four, three to four archetypes, which you'll call your ICPs. So then moving to the next step, think about those, each individual ICPs.

[A]

And so step two, rewrite your messaging in their words.

[B]

So now how we're moving to that. What I would do is I would focus on, okay, well how do each one of these people speak? So you said with like locations. Right. We have that specific. On maybe the ad.

[A]

Socioeconomic. You have to.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You have to put all of it in.

[B]

Yeah. And you know, with like for instance, if you have a very high net worth individual versus a very low net worth individual. A high net worth individual has a towards mentality. So I'm moving towards what I want. Whereas a low net worth individual is. I'm trying to save. So I'm moving away from pain or whatnot. So thinking about that. But then as well going to like those four factors of the ego. Like, okay, well, hey, if it's a woman, how does the woman talk versus the man? Because we think very differently. How do I speak to them? Then from there, like, okay, let's talk about the somatic. Like, what does a man want to feel? What does the woman want to feel? Then going to, you know, the psychic, what does the woman feel like? More of a, you Know, mental feelings versus, like, bodily feelings. What does she want to feel versus what does the man want to feel? And so I'll look at those different parts of it and then I'll craft the messaging based on that specific icp. And what's so cool about Facebook nowadays is like, I mean, it's kind of crazy to think about Emma. When you and I first met, do you remember how much media buyers had to be like, just geniuses? Dude, it's like not a thing anymore.

[A]

Dude, it's not a thing anymore. But you're absolutely right. To be a media buyer, you had to. You had to be like the creme a la creme.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And have such an understanding of marketing and media.

[B]

You'd be like a rainmaker, literally to like, literally.

[A]

Literally. And now it's just dime a dozen. Seriously. It's like they've become as frequent as marketers.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[A]

You can't throw a cat without hitting a marketer and bouncing off and hitting a media buyer.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's a huge part of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that would be that step three. I agree totally. With urgency. Naturally, I would try and figure out. The other thing that I would. I would look at is the offer. I'd look at the offer because usually what you'll find when we go back to step one in the research, I always end every research session with the same question. Is there anything you're not getting from us that you'd like to get? You know, like, is there anything I could help you with that you're not getting right now? And, you know, like, for instance, with this relocation offer I was talking about with Spain, we, when we were talking with them in these different avatars, the number one thing that they said was, you know, sometimes with the invite or the invites, the paperwork, it takes a little bit to hear back. And I just don't want to keep checking in. And so I hit them. I'm like, you should set up Automations and say in the offer that in every single week you're going to get a status update of where your application so you don't have to worry about where it is.

[A]

That's brilliant. We bought some property in Spain.

[B]

Yeah, right. But that's a huge part of it. Right. It's like, it's a very stressful process, especially with a lot of these people where they're fleeing, they're really trying to leave America. So there's like a fear kind of thing with it. So that's an example of how can we improve the offer. Well, the offer kind of stays the same, but now we've added a bonus to it in that, like we have a bonus concierge service. I literally just take the thing you're already doing and then just present it. I saw that first from Dan Kennedy where he would take the thing that is part of the offer and then just take it out. That's a bonus now. And then it looks more valuable. So I did that. That's how I would help with the urgency as well. Is maybe improving the offer a bit and then testing and optimizing. Yes, I would say that's a huge part of it. And then as well realizing too, I think what is difficult with testing and optimizing sometimes for a lot of business owners is they're listening to if it's an agency or a media buyer they're listening to kind of like an accountant tell them what to do. Like, and especially when it's a. It's a junior media buyer on the team.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you're the business owner. Well, it's not as profitable as these ones. Okay. We just launched it a week ago. Can we give it a month before we like jump to that conclusion? So I think just making sure that I would recommend every business owner read a book called Thinking in Systems and start thinking about things more from the perspective of like, media buyers have this logical fallacy that they can control a system and you can't control a system. You can dance with the system and make optimizations and improvements, but all I'm getting is data back. And all I need to focus on is, is my data pure or not? If the media buyer didn't even like the ad to begin with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they're coming in there saying that like it doesn't really matter what.

[A]

They heard was you're creating more work.

[B]

Yes, exactly. And they. And they're already.

[A]

I already have this one. Good enough.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I don't get anything extra for getting.

[B]

You a line managing eight clients.

[A]

And you want me to do this too?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think testing, optimizing is just like great when you have an in house team.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You have an in house team and you train those people properly on testing, optimization and also kind of having like, I call it brass balls. But just like take. You're kind of gambling a little bit. Take some bets. Like, it's okay.

[A]

It's a hundred split. Testing done properly.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Is 100% gambling.

[B]

Yeah. It's roulette.

[A]

100%.

[B]

And it's okay. This is a great bit From a comedian. He goes, I don't understand why people don't like, like roulette or bad at it. It's so easy. You just bet on the number that's going to come next. It's like, that's it. It's like kind of one way to look at it.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

Yeah, it's just, just, just be confident on your, your theories. And that's why I would say that, you know, oftentimes happens is the copywriter is separate from the media buying team. And I really don't like those.

[A]

I don't like those either. Yeah, I don't like those either. I won't, I won't do a launch without. If, if it's a separate team, I won't do a launch without. Let's get together and have a conversation. Call between Ops Marketing and Media Buying. Me and Mikhail, I don't know if you know him, he's maybe lost him. I can never say it. It's like, hold on. He taught me how to say it. You're going to die laughing.

[B]

It's probably super European.

[A]

Oh, it's Russian.

[B]

Oh, beautiful.

[A]

It's Russian. And so, so it's Kuznetsov.

[B]

Kuznetsov. Yeah.

[A]

And so he's like, just what do you do when. This is what he said to me. Because I'm like, I can't say your last name. You're gonna have to say it. He's like, no, no, no. You grew up on a farm. What do you have to do when you castrate a cow? Cut its nuts off.

[B]

Cut its nuts off. Cut its nuts off. That's good.

[A]

That's good. So he's from White Coat and he was just, he was just here. We were talking about this because he works on the marketing side and then we have another agency that we often work with on the media buying side. And we get together before any launch and it's like, these creatives aren't matching the messaging. The split tests are never going to work.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You're not filtering the right people to look at the offer. You're not disqualifying the wrong people to look at the offer. We're going to have shitty data.

[B]

Well, even like what I found happens sometimes with the optimizations is agencies oftentimes are very competitive over like. So I have, I had one client where. And I won't mention names or anything, but they have an agency and the agency handles like media buying and ads and whatnot for them and email and a couple other things. I came in and did a new VSL for them, but they done the last VSL and then they're not putting the proper budget to my vsl. And then by the time that we even got any start of significant data, the offer owner had to transition the offer to something else because of some kind of more compliance issues that were happening in the industry. And I pointed this out to him and I said, do you see the bias that happened here? Like you could have had, we don't know. We now don't know. And now we've moved on. And now your agency is like, yeah, we're the better one right there. So even the way that you're doing the split testing, you as the business owner, if you have an agency, if you have someone, you're the one steering the ship. You're the one making the decisions.

[A]

And well, oftentimes what I find is they won't get on calls with them. Yeah, they won't. They just hope like, hey, I pay all you people, so you go figure it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what he. What they're turning it all into is a battle royale of who looks the best, who looks the best. And meanwhile, if you guys freaking work together and someone was steering the ship, we'd all look like rock stars.

[B]

That's a lot of my consulting with business owners is like, when we do one on one with me, they want to find out how do I steer the ship. Nick, can you tell me everything you know about this so I know what I'm talking about when I go to these agencies? Because agencies will use big terms and oh, they'll be like, well, our CPC on an AOV with the CAC of an LTV and just go through all these things. And the business owner's like, I'm glad I hired the experts for this. And it's so we could break it down to like fifth grade level language and we just don't.

[A]

So talk to me like I'm Donald Trump. That's my favorite thing to say. We get a little bit off kilter. I want to close this out, but thank you so much for coming. Before I do, how can people find you?

[B]

Yeah, well, there's a couple different platforms. Pretty much everywhere is either going to be just Nick Verge or Nicholas Verge. If you go to my website, you go to nickverge.com, you can go to my newsletter and subscribe there. I write every single day on the newsletter. It's a lot of very strange conversations like we had today. All sorts of.

[A]

Your YouTube channel is phenomenal.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I highly recommend you YouTube as well.

[B]

Really great one.

[A]

I pulled a lot of this stuff out of your YouTube channel.

[B]

Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, so YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all just my name. And then nickverge.com if you want to subscribe to the newsletter.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you so much, Nick.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

If you're struggling to convert customers, it's not because your product sucks. It's because your messaging isn't triggering the right emotional response. If you like this episode, get your free psychological triggers cheat sheet at www.specialops podcast.com. subscribe to the Visionary Vault to get game changing marketing and operational strategies. Nick, thank you again. I gotta have you back. You're always phenomenal. You're always such a pleasure and a joy. Seriously. I know you had some stuff earlier on, but you were still entertaining as fuck back then, so. Yeah, I've loved, I've loved seeing you grow.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I really, really have. You just. You've always been smart, but you're.

[B]

It was just unrefined is how I say it. It was like I was still. I was. You got to think about it. I was in high school and I was hanging around a bunch of football players and that's all we, like, we were just the bros, you know, and so then transitioning to business.

[A]

No, dude, enjoy your journey. Yeah, like, if you weren't nuts, you wouldn't have had the eyes on you that you had. Like, I need you to really, really realize that you were still smart as hell. You're just a little crazy. Which made everybody watch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And look at you now, kid. That's a joke, obviously. But no, enjoy that. Embrace that journey and seriously, embrace that. Yeah, that, that Nick was entertaining and awesome.

[B]

Such a great era, people.

[A]

It really was. And you're getting a little bit old for that now, so you can't really do.

[B]

Exactly. I can't do that at 25.

[A]

No, but you have enough people staring at you now that you don't need to.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So thank you so much. Kudos to.