Why You're Always Bad: Northwestern

Summary

Split Zone Duo – "Why You're Always Bad: Northwestern"

Date: July 21, 2026
Hosts: Alex Kirshner, Richard Johnson
Guest: Roger Sherman (Northwestern alum)

Episode Overview

The episode explores why Northwestern football is perennially perceived as "bad" within the context of college football, even though the program has experienced some success, particularly in recent decades. With Northwestern alumnus Roger Sherman, the hosts dissect the program's historical struggles, brief periods of excellence, notable players, and the unique context that shapes Northwestern’s reputation as the "losingest" major program. The discussion is tongue-in-cheek, grounded in fandom, and filled with deep dives and humorous asides.

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Main Themes and Key Discussion Points

Challenging the Premise: Is Northwestern "Always Bad"?

• (00:53–02:13) Alex, a Northwestern alum, disputes the “always bad” framing, citing the program’s 119–108 record since 2008 and six bowl wins in the last decade:

  “...since I became a Northwestern fan in 2008, their record is 119 to 108. That is a winning record, folks... The issue, of course, is...they are never legitimately a contender to win the conference...” — Alex Kirshner (01:06)

• Levels of “Bad”

  • Roger and Richard acknowledge that while Northwestern historically loses a lot, it isn’t on the level of true bottom-feeders like UMass or Kent State.

The Historical Arc of Northwestern Football

• (04:21–07:19) Roger provides a timeline:
  • Early years: paired with Indiana for most all-time losses because both started football in the 1890s.
  • Biggest low point: 34-game losing streak in the 1970s–80s.
    • “There is like... basically 30 years there where every year Northwestern is going to be like 10th or tied for ninth in the Big Ten Conference...” — Alex Kirshner (05:10)
  • Rise in the mid-1990s under coach Gary Barnett: 1995 Rose Bowl season, repeat Big Ten championship in 1996, co-championship in 2000.
  • The Pat Fitzgerald era (2005–2022): Fitz brings program stability and its only long-term winning head coach stretch, but ends with his firing amid hazing scandals.
  • Present: David Braun outperforms late Fitzgerald era.

Statistical Gloom – Most Losses, “O-fer” Seasons

• (07:36–09:22)
  • Northwestern: Six 0-win seasons, 19 seasons with 1 or fewer wins out of 132.
  • “Rick Venturi...career record as Northwestern’s head coach was 1–31–1.” — Alex Kirshner (08:25)
  • Pat Fitzgerald’s final season: another one-win campaign, only win in Ireland.

Notable Players and NFL Success (or Lack Thereof)

• (09:56–15:37)

  • Top 8 NFL alumni: Only one non-lineman skill player in top 8 (drafted 1963).
  • Quarterback Trevor Siemian is arguably the most recognizable recent offensive skill player.
    • “It is actually completely indisputably accurate... the Northwestern skill position player with the NFL career that you are most likely to know or remember is quarterback Trevor Simeon...” — Alex Kirshner (10:56)
  • Steve Tasker, famous special teamer, and Mike Kafka, current NFL offensive coach, discussed.
  • Recent ‘stars’: left tackles Rashawn Slater and Peter Skoronski, cornerback Greg Newsome, and running back Justin Jackson (four 1,000-yard seasons).
    • “Justin Jackson... one of nine players in college football history with four 1,000 yard rushing seasons... number three all time in the Big Ten rushing standings behind Jonathan Taylor and Ron Dayne.” — Alex Kirshner (15:37)

• Northwestern’s Defensive Breakthroughs

  • 1995 Rose Bowl team won via top-ranked defense, not offense (17:16–17:41).

The Unique 1995 Team

• (17:16–18:29)
  • 1995’s Rose Bowl run featured wins over Notre Dame, Michigan, Penn State—Not a "cheap" season.
    • “They beat Notre Dame week one, biggest upset in college football history at the time.” — Richard Johnson (17:39)

Legacy Stars and Historical Quirks

• (18:34–20:17)
  • Early star Otto Graham: Hall of Fame QB for the Browns, multi-sport Northwestern legend.
  • Chris Hinton: Top-4 NFL draft pick despite playing on winless teams, became a Colts all-time great after being converted from tight end by Dennis Green.

Denny Green and Diversity Trailblazing

• (20:42–26:43)
  • Denny Green: first Black head coach in a power conference, later an NFL and college head coach.
    • “Denny Green...led a player boycott while he was in college in Iowa, advocating for better support for black athletes... raised academic standards...for black athletes throughout the Big Ten...” — Richard Johnson (21:08)
  • Hired after player protests and allegations of racism under predecessor Rick Venturi.
  • Denny Green won 3 games in his second year and was named Big Ten Coach of the Year (22:01).

Other Noteworthy Northwestern “Firsts” & Fun Facts

• Jason Wright: First Black NFL team president, played at Northwestern (26:43–27:35).
• Byron and Barry Sanders: NCAA record for most combined rushing yards by brothers in one season (27:35–28:20).
  • “...Byron and Barry Sanders set the NCAA record for rushing yards by two brothers in one season.” — Roger Sherman (27:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Northwestern’s perpetual underdog status:

  “I would maybe retitle it why you're never good.”
  — Alex Kirshner (03:19)

• On the absurdity of skill-position NFL success:

  “It almost raises the question of whether special teamer counts as skill position player.”
  — Alex Kirshner (11:41)

• On Justin Jackson:

  “...one of nine players in college football history with four 1,000 yard rushing seasons... number three all time in the Big Ten rushing standings behind Jonathan Taylor and Ron Dayne. Just, just a great running back who spent so much time just powering Northwestern to wins.”
  — Alex Kirshner (15:37)

• On 1995 Rose Bowl team’s schedule:

  “For God’s sakes, like, this ain’t a Mickey Mouse 11 and 1 or 10 and 2... It’s a bona fide 10 and 2 northwest.”
  — Richard Johnson (18:08)

• On the Denny Green hire and impact:

  “Denny Green... raised academic standards and just standards in general for black athletes throughout the Big Ten when he played in the 60s.”
  — Richard Johnson (21:18)

• On the “losingest” metric:

  “So the headline is losingest college football team of all time—718 losses.”
  — Alex Kirshner (04:21)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:53–03:42 | Framing: Is Northwestern really "always bad"? | | 04:04–07:19 | Full program history: from the 1890s to Pat Fitzgerald | | 07:19–09:22 | The statistical misery: 0- and 1-win seasons | | 09:56–17:16 | Skill players, NFL alums, and atypical breakout seasons | | 17:16–18:29 | 1995 Rose Bowl miracle run: not a fluke | | 18:34–20:17 | Otto Graham, Chris Hinton, historical NFL context | | 20:42–26:43 | Denny Green’s legacy, player protests, Black coaches | | 26:43–27:35 | Jason Wright, NFL presidency | | 27:35–28:20 | Barry and Byron Sanders’ combined rushing record |

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Tone and Style

The episode blends statistical analysis, deep-dive historical context, light mockery, and genuine affection for Northwestern's quirks and unlikely moments of success. The guest, Roger, provides a fan’s perspective, often defending the program, while still acknowledging its foibles. The hosts riff on football minutiae with running jokes about the “skill position curse,” obscure records, and the unique way Northwestern wins (or doesn’t).

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Summary Takeaways

• Northwestern isn’t always bad; it’s just almost never actually good relative to its peers.
• Historical futility is the program’s default—but pockets of impressive success, especially in the 1990s and late 2010s, break the mold.
• The program has produced trailblazers (Denny Green, Jason Wright) and quietly excellent players (Justin Jackson, Rashawn Slater), but few star skill players.
• Much of Northwestern’s identity—both its glory and struggles—comes from its unique history, difficult circumstances, and rare but memorable football moments.

For in-depth analysis and laughs, this episode is essential listening for college football and underdog enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Alex Kirshner]

We're coming and we ain't backing down. We don't need a bunch of cats

[Richard Johnson]

in here looking in the mirror.

[Alex Kirshner]

Hey, will you shut up? I'm bitterly disappointed with the officiating today.

[Richard Johnson]

Guys being dudes. And they run through our. Like through a tin horn, man.

[Roger Sherman]

Thank you, Lee. Thank you, everyone. This is Split Zone Duo relaunch week. Rolling along with one of my favorite types of episodes that we do here at Split Zone Duo. I'm Alex Kirshner, joined by Richard Johnson and joined by an alumnus of a football program. Well, a university with a football program that we've wanted to cover on why you're always bad for so many years. And we are finally doing it today

[Richard Johnson]

to the point that I had thought we did it when you brought this up the other day to me.

[Roger Sherman]

Oh, no. But today we do. Welcome to the program. Welcome back to the program, recurring guest Roger Sherman.

[Alex Kirshner]

First of all, I just want to say that I'm here under protest. I don't think Northwestern is always bad at football.

[Richard Johnson]

In fact, as the losing his program in the history of fba, okay, they've.

[Alex Kirshner]

That they've racked up the most counting stats, sure. But since I went to. Since I became a Northwestern fan in 2008, their record is 119 to 108. That is a winning record, folks. They have won more games than they have lost over the last 18 years. They won a bowl game last year. They've won six bowl games in the last 10 years. That sounds to me like a program that wins more games than it loses. The issue, of course, is, yes, they have historically lost the most games of all time and that they are never legitimately a contender to win the conference they are in, which is becoming a mega, massive super league. And we are just happy to be here. So we are very bad relative to the competition that we face week in, week out. But I mean, the other episodes I've done of why you're always bad are like Kent State and UMass. Come on, there's a, there's, there's levels here.

[Roger Sherman]

This is fair.

[Richard Johnson]

I think Northwestern is at the level you think.

[Alex Kirshner]

Okay, I'm throwing off my. Northwestern expect victory. Northwestern is not as bad as UMass or Kent State. I just said they have a winning record over the last 18 years.

[Roger Sherman]

It's true.

[Richard Johnson]

That's.

[Alex Kirshner]

Look, there are college football recruits who are going to college now have seen in their lifetime more Northwestern wins than Northwestern losses. That's a fact.

[Roger Sherman]

They have seen Northwestern participate in a Big Ten championship such as it was

[Richard Johnson]

two, seen it all and only one

[Roger Sherman]

of them was during the COVID season. And I think, Roger, that you raised a fair point about this series, why you're always bad, which is that we take a few liberties with the word always. It's very load bearing. But the intent of this series, and we've covered a big handful of teams now over the years, is to really dive in, in what I hope is a loving way to not just scoff at football programs that have struggled occasionally or might have the most losses in the history of the sport, but to really get underneath the skin and figure out what's been the issue, what's been holding them back.

[Alex Kirshner]

I would maybe retitle it why you're never good.

[Roger Sherman]

We're going to talk about that.

[Richard Johnson]

No, no, no, no, no. That is a Northwestern journalism school turn of phrase.

[Roger Sherman]

Pros.

[Richard Johnson]

Absolutely not.

[Alex Kirshner]

We're not having that. I'm counting it as a win.

[Roger Sherman]

As Richard said, Roger, we're not open to that. I completely agree with what my partner said.

[Alex Kirshner]

In that case, I am doing the hand symbol that MLB teams are supposed to do when they play a game under protest.

[Richard Johnson]

You tapping the hat, the ABS challenge on the name.

[Alex Kirshner]

I am here. I will participate in the episode. I will talk to you about Northwestern's history of positive and negative results. But I don't think we're always bad.

[Roger Sherman]

Roger Sherman, you, an alum of Northwestern, have agreed to give us the brief. Or maybe not so brief, but it will be fun. Rundown of the history of this program up to present day. Familiarize people with the long arc of Northwestern Wildcat football.

[Alex Kirshner]

So the headline is losing his college football team of all time, 718 losses. Up until this year it was Indiana. They've sort of traded spots over the last few decades of the the title of the team with the most losses. Indiana though, decided to stop losing games. Like they lost zero games this year. They're not keeping up with that end of the bargain. And Northwestern past them and it's now 718 to 715. Indiana still in second place. I don't think it's going to be a while for any other team to catch up like because of how early those programs started playing football in the 1890s. It's just going to be a while for anyone else to get in the mix. Northwestern actually did have some success. 1930s, 1940s, like 1949, Rose bowl, et cetera, et cetera, but just drops off a cliff in the 1960s. We see the longest losing streak in college football. History in between the 1970s and the 1980s, they lose 34 games in a row. There is like, it's, it's not good. There's basically 30 years there where every year Northwestern is going to be like 10th or tied for ninth in the Big Ten Conference time.

[Roger Sherman]

Yeah.

[Alex Kirshner]

And you know, there's just no hope. And I'm wearing this home field apparel expect victory hat which is the motto of the 1995 team, which if a coach came to me like after, like for the program of the team that's lost all these games, that's always in last place and says like expect victory, I'd be like, what are you talking about? But that season is like sort of this year's Indiana team before this year's Indiana team in 1995. Northwestern goes to the Rose Bowl. In 1996, they repeat as Big Ten champions. They win a Big Ten championship again in 2000. So they had there, there's some like co championship asterisks there. But they. After, after being a laughingstock for 30 plus years, they win three Big Ten championships in a span of six years. And in 2008, Northwest or sorry in 2005, Northwestern hires Pat Fitzgerald who was the star of the 1995 and 1996 teams on defense and he really restores the program to respectability and becomes the winningest coach by a lot in Northwestern football history and has a winning record as a head coach, which is impossible. And then he is fired as a result of the hazing scandal a few years ago. And here we are now in the present day with David Braun as head coach who has been more successful than late era Pat Fitzgerald. That is my summary. I don't know whether that was too long or too short.

[Richard Johnson]

No, I, I think that's about good. I. This is actually quite. What? There's a quite helpful feature on, on Wikipedia that has the most. The most zero loss seasons. The most over seasons.

[Alex Kirshner]

Oh, we gotta be in college football history. We gotta be up there.

[Roger Sherman]

Most zero win seasons.

[Richard Johnson]

Yes, the most. Yeah, yeah. Most zero win seasons in college football history. And I am almost certain Northwestern takes the cake here. I am. They. Excuse me, I think they are tied with drexel. No, they're one. Sorry, they're one behind Colorado State. Northwestern has had six, six over seasons. Colorado State somehow has had seven. But Northwestern has had six over college football seasons. 1980, three of them in the 1980s. Yeah, 1989, 1981 and 1980. All three of those were 0 and 11s. They do have an oh 10 and 1 which I appreciate in 1978.

[Alex Kirshner]

Yes. That was the head coach at the time, Rick Venturi, who was the head coach at the start of the streak. His career record as Northwestern's head coach was 1. 34 and 1. Sorry, 1. 31 and 1. Season opening 00 tie.

[Richard Johnson]

Yes, season opening scoreless tie against Illinois.

[Alex Kirshner]

Rick Venturi's first game as head coach was a 00 tie. And that was the highlight of his time there. Like it went downhill from there.

[Roger Sherman]

I also think, Richard, that to get the full picture of their problems. Fair point to point out the six OFer seasons, by my count they have 19 one win or fewer seasons. Now that's out of 132 as a major.

[Richard Johnson]

You're batting. What is that? Batting about 200. A little bit less.

[Alex Kirshner]

We've gotten rid of the zero win seasons, but we did have a recurring one win season in Pat Fitzgerald's last year in 2002, he went one in 11 with the one win coming in Ireland, which I attended. I saw their only. I saw their only win that year in person. Very proud of that.

[Roger Sherman]

That was getting Scott Frost fired basically.

[Alex Kirshner]

Yeah, he stuck around for a couple more games.

[Roger Sherman]

Yeah, he did, yeah.

[Alex Kirshner]

And it was. Both coaches did not have much left at their schools.

[Roger Sherman]

No. This is the any cool players section of the episode. And I have to say something about Northwestern that I think is kind of unbelievable. There's a relatively blunt object metric that I think is the best that we've got to judge the NFL success of players from different colleges. And it is the career weighted average metric by the folks at Sports Reference, at Stat Head at Pro Football Reference. And what I find amazing about Northwestern is that you have to get down to number eight all time on the Northwestern list of NFL alums to find any skill position player on offense. And he was drafted in 1963, a wide receiver. It is actually completely indisputably accurate in my view to say that in the waking adult lives of just about everybody who's listening to this podcast, the Northwestern skill position player with the NFL career that you are most likely to know or remember is quarterback Trevor Simeon, who got 33 NFL starts as a backup between 2015 and 2023. Would you dispute that? Roger,

[Richard Johnson]

even I am not sure that that's fair.

[Alex Kirshner]

Like that's true. I think that's true. Who would you pick? Richard Johnson?

[Roger Sherman]

Steve Tasker?

[Richard Johnson]

Eraser.

[Roger Sherman]

Okay, let's go back a little further now. What did Steve Tasker become known for in the NFL? What did Steve Tasker become known for? In the NFL though, what did he

[Richard Johnson]

do losing four Super Bowls.

[Roger Sherman]

And specifically, yes, he was Matthew Slater before Matthew Slater, or to use a Northwestern analogy, he was Ben Skoronic, current special teams ace of my Steelers before Ben Skoronic.

[Alex Kirshner]

It almost raises the question of whether special teamer counts as skill position player. You specified skill position player.

[Richard Johnson]

Steve Tasker also is always top of mind for me because he's. Alex, you don't know anything about this because your team always plays on Sunday Night Football. Uh, but when you are on the 1pm CBS game, you get used to the same rotation of announcers. So I get a lot of Spiro. And this is not a. This is not aspersion on Spiro Dedes and the gang, but I get a lot of Spiro Dedes, Adam Archuleta, James Lofton and Steve tasker at. At 1:00pm for. For 1:00pm Jags.

[Alex Kirshner]

The weird thing for me about. I think for. I don't remember Steve Tasker as a player because he's 1980s, early 1990s.

[Richard Johnson]

No. Well, yeah, I guess mid-90s, I guess you said.

[Alex Kirshner]

So some of our people who are slightly older than me, probably that will check out. But I would say it's got to be Trevor Simeon. And it's so weird because like, Trevor Simeon was, in my recollection, the fourth best of the five quarterbacks who played at Northwestern during my four years as a student there. We had, um, we had Dan Pursa and Mike Kafka and Kane Coulter. I would take any of them any day over Trevor Simeon. And Trevor Simeon went on to be in the NFL for a pretty solid amount of time. He had two stints with my Jets. He came back.

[Richard Johnson]

There is a. There is a classification of NFL player that I think Alex nails so hard, which is jets quarterback. And you just know it when you see it.

[Alex Kirshner]

He's. He's still in the league right now. He's on the Falcons. He's the third stringer behind Tua and Penix.

[Roger Sherman]

Good for him.

[Alex Kirshner]

He could be the fourth stringer. I haven't looked at the depth chart, but guess what? He's got a ring. He's got a ring. He won a ring with the Broncos.

[Richard Johnson]

Have Tremor Simeon on the roster. Good God.

[Alex Kirshner]

I haven't checked the Falcons depth chart.

[Roger Sherman]

And Roger, Mike Kafka is still an important guy in the NFL. He's the passing game coordinator. I can't really understand that. It's kind of weird and spooky to me that he's had this thing going on. I can't get my head around it with Mike Kafka, but you know, Mike Kafka.

[Alex Kirshner]

First of all, my favorite Northwestern. One of my favorite Northwestern football games is he had to. He was the backup and he subbed in and he ran for like 217 yards against Minnesota and just no one was expecting it because he's just like. Well, you know, people have expectations of a guy named Mike Kafka stepping in to play quarterback and he went for 270 rushing yards and he ended up being like the quarterbacks coach for Patrick Mahomes in his first couple years of the league and then he was the Giants offensive coordinator and then interim coach last year. Did not really cover himself in glory as the Giants interim coach last year, if I remember correctly. I do not think they had a strong finish to the season. But he's, he's considered like a, he might be a head coach someday.

[Roger Sherman]

This is not to claim that Northwestern has not produced some very good football players, some very good NFL players in our lifetimes and in our adult lifetimes, even in the periods that we've, that we've been alert to what's been going on. But there's a reason why they are the school that we always go back to to think wow, like at some point you would just think they would get some dominant player on offense and it just doesn't happen. No disrespect to Rashawn Slater, great left tackle in the NFL now. No disrespect to Barry, Barry Cofield.

[Alex Kirshner]

We've had several tackle. We're like starting to churn out left tackles.

[Richard Johnson]

We had Greg Newsom, Eraser.

[Alex Kirshner]

We had two first round left tackles in Slater and Skronsky. Although I think the Titans kicked Skaronski

[Richard Johnson]

inside the two first round picks on that. It was, it was. Newsom and Skronski were on the same, same team. Two first round picks on Northwestern.

[Alex Kirshner]

I would say if we were talking about cool guys, cool players. The one that stands out for me in modern Northwestern history is probably Justin Jackson who is, I didn't realize this stat until today, one of nine players in college football history with four 1,000 yard rushing seasons. He will almost certainly be the last player to do that. To have four 1000 yard rushing seasons is incredible. He's number three all time in the Big Ten rushing standings behind Jonathan Taylor and Ron Dean. Just, just a great running back who spent so much time just powering Northwestern to wins. And I'm a big fan of him. And yeah, there's really just, I don't, I Don't. If you're talking about limiting it to skill position players, I don't know why. It just has a bit of thing for Northwestern. And you'd think normally when a team that's sort of on the outskirts has a breakthrough, it tends to come on the back of skill position players. It tends to be like, oh, we found this one quarterback who just kind of blew up. You know, we had this one running back who we didn't expect to be this good. But Northwestern, like, when they broke through in 1995, it was on the back of the best defense in college football. They allowed like 12 points per game and ranked number one in defense. And it was Pat Fitzgerald, that middle linebacker, just shutting down the best teams in the country week after week after week, which is not how you expect a team to break through.

[Richard Johnson]

This is one point that I actually think deserves to be said about the 1995 Northwestern team. When I looked that schedule is way less Mickey Mouse.

[Alex Kirshner]

No, their one loss was to Miami Ohio. Yeah, like, they went undefeated in Big Ted and dropped to Miami Ohio.

[Richard Johnson]

They beat Notre Dame week one, biggest

[Alex Kirshner]

upset in college football history at the time.

[Richard Johnson]

They beat Michigan and they beat Penn State. Like a pretty decent. Now it does deserve to be said that they had the thing happen to them, which is like that year Wake went to the Orange Bowl. Like, you just either missed the really good teams or you caught them on the downturn. Like Michigan goes nine and four. All right. Like Penn State goes nine and three. These are not like vintage of those teams. They also don't play Ohio State does. Northwestern doesn't play Ohio State. So they get some luck of the draw stuff. But for God's sakes, like, this ain't a Mickey Mouse 11 and 1 or 10 and 2. I guess Mickey Mouse 10 and 2. It's a bonafide 10 and 2 northwest.

[Alex Kirshner]

I believe we have updated to why we were good one time.

[Roger Sherman]

Keep that protest going, Roger, all episode if you want to.

[Alex Kirshner]

I have no plans on stopping.

[Roger Sherman]

We didn't mention Otto Graham, who is sort of one of the great quarterbacks. But I think.

[Richard Johnson]

What do you mean?

[Roger Sherman]

I think the thing about Otto. The thing about Otto.

[Richard Johnson]

You're saying he's the goat.

[Alex Kirshner]

You're saying he's the goat. You're saying Otto is the goat.

[Roger Sherman]

Otto is that he was a great quarterback for the Cleveland Browns, which gives you a sense of how long ago that must have been. And he was also in black and white. And the years that he was doing this were in the 40s and 50s.

[Alex Kirshner]

He was hooping in the number 48 jersey at quarterback.

[Richard Johnson]

He was also literally hooping, by the way, because he was an all American basketball player at Northwestern. He did not come in playing football. The head coach of Northwestern at the time saw him playing basket, saw him playing intramural football and was like, hey, son, want to try this? And there, there you have it. So he also went to.

[Roger Sherman]

He had a 90 yard punt return touchdown in his first game as a college football player.

[Alex Kirshner]

No. Super bowl championships. Lot of NFL championships.

[Richard Johnson]

Yes, yes.

[Alex Kirshner]

They hadn't come up with the super bowl yet.

[Richard Johnson]

That merged.

[Alex Kirshner]

I mean. Yeah, they hadn't merged yet. We were also talking about like just how sometimes players came through during the bad times. And I just wanted to shout out. I think one of the most remarkable, like, I don't know how this happened in college football history is that Pro bowl offensive lineman Chris Hinton was on the teams that went. He was on the teams that had the 34 game losing streak and he was still the number four pick in the NFL draft at left tackle.

[Roger Sherman]

Oh my God. It's like that meme of the nice sports car underneath the like tented garage.

[Alex Kirshner]

It was actually like he was a tight end. And then Dennis Green became the head coach halfway through and switched him to offensive tackle and he became an all American All Pro. I don't know how they could tell that he was. While they were losing those games, you know, 50 0. But like he went on to have a great career in the NFL too, and I think is like considered one of the best Indianapolis Colts of all time.

[Richard Johnson]

Speaking of Denny Green, I'm glad you asked, Roger. Denny Green, first black coach in power Conference history, second in Division 1A history behind Wichita State's Willie Jeffries, hired by then new AD Doug Single, who knew him at Stanford. Single came from Stanford. And Denny Green had been an assistant under Bill Walsh at Stanford. He would also go on to be the head coach at Stanford a little bit later. Green, like Denny Green, was bad about it. Denny Green had led a player boycott while he was in college in Iowa, advocating for better support for black athletes. He and 15 others actually got kicked off that team. Some of them were reinstated, including Denny. But about that life raised academic standards and just standards in general for black athletes throughout the Big Ten when he played in the 60s. Denny Green is hired in 1981. As Roger told you earlier, they are on a 1:31 and 1 streak in the couple years before his hire. That is not good in my industry opinion. They go, oh, and 11 in Denny Green's debut. They go 3 and 8 in 1982 and Denny Green is voted coach of the year in the Big Ten. And like, they asked Bo Schembechler about it and Bo was like, yeah, man, he's getting the job done there. And they go three and eight that year.

[Alex Kirshner]

That's my favorite Northwestern football fact ever. That Big Ten coach of the year for what is objectively a terrible season. But he had clearly done so much better than the guys before him. And there's some context there because actually you might think the reason they fired the previous head coach and athletic director is because they had put the team in a 30 game losing streak. And that's partially true, but also there were allegations of like, racial mistreatment of black players, that the coach, Rick Venturi, was like making black players play when they were injured, making black players clean up trash on the field after games and stuff like that.

[Roger Sherman]

Oh, brother.

[Alex Kirshner]

Yeah, being racist sometimes has very bad results. Just throwing it out there. And so there was a protest at the time of the players on the Northwestern team also. And they fired both the ad, John Pont, and the head coach, Rick Venturi, and they made the decision to hire the first black coach in power conference history out of that really, really ugly moment. And Dennis Green went on to be like a really successful and beloved coach at multiple levels.

[Richard Johnson]

Yeah, there are, regrettably for our guy, a lot of three and nines and two and eights. Before he leaves to go to the NFL, he leaves to go to the Niners with Walsh as an assistant coach. What I think that gets, I don't know about. Lost in the trailblazing with Denny Green is the football bonafides. Like I always try to find the football bona fides with these guys. Denny Green, and this isn't surprising, but Denny Green is a son of the west coast offense. Bill Walsh, west coast offense, that's the thing. He had his own kind of tweaks to it. They were much more vertical under Denny Green or whoever Denny Green was coaching. They were much more vertical in their passing game than you would typically see in the west coast offense. West coast offense, obviously a lot of dink and dunk, a lot of short, intermediate timing stuff, all that sort of stuff. But you know, Denny Green was not afraid to chuck and duck. The like, platonic ideal of that is the late 90s Vikings with Randy Moss and Chris Carter and Randall Cunningham. The team that missed that field goal against the Falcons to miss the super bowl that one year, I think it was like 98 or 99. So there were only three black head coaches hired in college football, major College football from 1981 to 1993. And Northwestern actually has two of them because Northwestern goes black to black, which we must give plotting to Northwestern for doing this. Now, however, I do like there's a little bit of an asterisk on.

[Roger Sherman]

Yeah, I was going to say giving them credit. Little senate going on here.

[Richard Johnson]

It must be noted Denny Green left for the Niners at the end of March 1986. So Northwestern doesn't really have a place to go with this. So they put the interim tag on Francis P. Who again they go, is the second black coach in Northwestern College football history. In the 1980s, he took over and won four games. That was the high water mark for the last decade of Northwestern football. But in the end, he didn't do much better than Danny Green in the job. Obviously tough job. As we know, he did hire Randy Walker as an assistant coach. However, Randy Walker would come back in the late 90s after the kind of floor was raised considerably and kind of get him to a couple ball games and make him not the complete doormat of the Big Ten in college football.

[Alex Kirshner]

Yeah, just talking through that sequence of events again, it sounds like they were like, oh God, we had like this racial unrest on the team. We got to hire a black guy, whoever it is. But like at the time, no power conference teams were hiring black coaches. So you were getting. There's just this untapped market where there was a extremely qualified, innovative, talented black coach who was getting overlooked by everybody because it just wasn't a thing that people were doing at the time. And that's, that's making people will say like, oh, why do we need to hire black coaches? Like, shouldn't we just hire the best coaches? The idea is that they're being systematically overlooked. And that's why it's a bell we keep trying to hammer as hard as we can.

[Roger Sherman]

Also in the department of black trailblazing out of the Northwestern football program, this program produced Jason Wright, who's a player there. Jason Wright later became the first black team president in the history of the NFL. Does that completely count, given that it was for late stage Daniel Snyder, Washington football team. I imagine that was a debasing job, but it counts. I don't want to take it away.

[Richard Johnson]

Listen, man, we take what we can get.

[Roger Sherman]

It does speak to though, like, Denny Green got put in some tough situations. Jason Wright got put in probably the worst job in sports, which is to take the bullets for Daniel Snyder. As his tenure as an NFL owner was ending. This is an awful job. He must have hated every day he was in that office. I don't want to speak for him, but. Oh, my God, how terrible must that have been to be Daniel Snyder's team President in the2020s. Good Lord.

[Alex Kirshner]

He could be up there on, like, skill position players, too. We haven't had many. He was a running back for a while in the NFL.

[Roger Sherman]

Yes. So Northwestern has produced a lot of people. Also, Northwestern has produced, and this is one of my favorite records in the NCAA book. Roger, you're going to know it immediately. Byron Sanders, brother of Barry. In 1988, Byron and Barry Sanders set the NCAA record for rushing yards by two brothers in one season.

[Alex Kirshner]

Barry didn't know that.

[Roger Sherman]

Credited with 2,628. It was actually, of course, 2850, as real heads will know for the Cowboys that year. And Byron for 1,062 yards at Northwestern. That is credited as about 3,700 combined yards. I dare you to find me two brothers running for more yards in one college football season. You're not going to be able to.

[Alex Kirshner]

The Rogers brothers, how many did they

[Roger Sherman]

get running for more yards? No.

[Richard Johnson]

Running. Running.

[Alex Kirshner]

Okay.

[Richard Johnson]

In the same season. Also in the same season.

[Roger Sherman]

You're not going to find anymore.

[Alex Kirshner]

I mean, I know you clearly have the record in front of you, so I actually. You found a Northwestern football fact that I didn't know. We also had Tony. We also had Tony Parker's brother on the basketball team. He wasn't as good as.

[Roger Sherman]

Oh, very nice.

[Alex Kirshner]

As Tony Parker. We have a history of slightly worse brothers.

[Roger Sherman]

Yeah. Thank you for listening. This has been a free preview of a subscriber episode for our [e-mail] if you'd like to become a paid subscriber today, you can do [e-mail] subscrib.