How a Terror Case Fizzled

Summary

SpyTalk Podcast Summary

Episode Title: How a Terror Case Fizzled
Air Date: June 5, 2026
Host(s): Jeff Stein, Michael Isikoff, Karen J. Greenberg
Guest: Michael Lewitz, former Guantanamo terrorism prosecutor, author of Second Wave: Inside Al Qaeda’s Post-9/11 Attack Plan and America’s Secret Effort to Stop It

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles the fallout and failures of high-profile terrorism cases in the post-9/11 era, focusing especially on Saifulla Paracha. The hosts break down current national security news on controversial Trump administration appointments, legal challenges from intelligence leaks, and close the episode with an in-depth interview with Michael Lewitz. Lewitz reveals insider details about key terror investigations, why certain prosecutions never materialized, and the implications for U.S. counterterrorism policy today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shocking National Security Appointments (01:10 - 07:30)

• Bill Pulte as Acting DNI:

  • Hosts react to President Trump’s appointment of Bill Pulte, a political loyalist with no intelligence experience, as Director of National Intelligence (DNI).
  • “This stands out as like, you know, jaw removal time.”—Michael Isikoff (02:07)
  • Pulte remains head of the Federal Housing Mortgage Agency, raising concerns about the seriousness of modern national security roles.

• Weaponization of Intelligence:

  • Pulte’s track record includes prosecuting political enemies and vows to “name and shame” rather than seek justice.
  • Concern that he might access classified intelligence for political leverage, especially regarding Russia or China.
  • “He will now have complete clearances to see anything he wants in US intelligence… He can go deep into the vaults.”—Jeff Stein (04:58)

• Mark Warner’s Opposition:

  • Senator Warner threatens to oppose FISA Section 702 renewal unless Pulte is removed. Bipartisan outrage over the appointment. (05:39)

• January 6th Rehabilitations:

  • Appointment of convicted January 6th rioter Elias Rizari to DoD Special Operations signals normalization of insurrectionists in government. (06:33)

2. John Bolton’s Guilty Plea (07:30 - 10:28)

• Classified Information Retention:
  • Bolton pleads guilty to improperly retaining and sharing classified notes with his wife and daughter—not for publication, but for book research.
  • Highlights selective prosecution given similar scandals involving presidents.
  • “Stupid question. Is this a selective prosecution?”—Jeff Stein (08:35)
  • Bolton faces a $2 million fine; risks prison.

3. Interview: Michael Lewitz & The Paracha Cases (14:05 - 56:55)

The Paracha Story (14:05 - 28:46)

• Saifulla Paracha’s Background:

  • Paracha: well-liked, lawful U.S. resident, successful New York/Pakistan businessman.
  • Not originally radical but became entangled with Al Qaeda leaders via business deals at vulnerable post-9/11 ports.

• Al Qaeda Contacts:

  • FBI/DOJ connect Paracha to Osama bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) through meeting records, business cards, and emails.
  • Key evidence: Paracha’s role in potential “second wave” attacks by leveraging shipping/logistics for weapon smuggling.
  • “[Paracha] was addicted to contacts... Anyone of influence, he would put in there.”—Michael Lewitz (18:48)

• CIA Hysteria Post-9/11:

  • CIA considered designating him as an “enemy combatant,” based on claims from tortured detainees (notably KSM, waterboarded 183 times), which is unreliable but set off an aggressive manhunt.
  • “In this lack of a better word, hysteria... there seemed to be a jumping from point to point on this nuclear weapons issue, and the string was never drawn tight.”—Jeff Stein (26:38)

Inside the Interrogations (28:46 - 33:27)

• The Agent Ruby Incident:
  • FBI’s traditional interrogation breaks Paracha, who is about to confess fully, but a military interrogator (“Agent Ruby”) interrupts, derailing the breakthrough.
  • This blunder is legendary: "She did not become famous, but she did become infamous. This is one of those untold stories from the war on terror..."—Michael Lewitz (31:33)

Could Paracha Have Been Prosecuted? (33:27 - 38:26)

• Lewitz Defends the Case:

  • Lewitz asserts there was ample non-coerced evidence for a federal “material support” conviction, but politics and prosecutorial hesitancy blocked it.
  • “In federal court, I am positive that we would have gotten a conviction…”—Michael Lewitz (33:27)

• Torture Evidence Problems:

  • Admits much nuclear claims rested on tortured testimony and couldn't be tried federally, but enough admissible evidence existed for other charges.

• Uzair Paracha’s Case:

  • Saifulla’s son, Uzair, tried and convicted in federal court, later released and exonerated. Lewitz calls Uzair “a tragic story,” not a true terrorist, but entrapped by family/business.

The Gitmo Fiasco & Systemic Failure (41:08 - 49:30)

• Saifulla’s Fate:

  • Held 16+ years without trial, then quietly released as national attention faded.
  • “He lost his family, he lost his contacts, he lost his wealth. His family didn't greet him when he arrived back in Pakistan. He lost everything.”—Michael Lewitz (43:41)

• Military Commissions Breakdown:

  • Describes the system as a “zombie court” and “the worst legal disaster in American history.” (45:24)
  • Systemic problems: Congress made it impossible to try such cases in civilian courts after a botched “test case” (Galani).

Present Day Counterterrorism Concerns (50:08 - 55:42)

• Lewitz’s Warnings:

  • Counterterrorism institutions are eroding: loss of FBI personnel, budget cuts, and overemphasis on immigration at the expense of international terror vigilance.
  • “The complacency combines with the kind of refocusing of priorities is taking us to a pre-9/11 posture.”—Michael Lewitz (51:25)
  • Points to ongoing threats in Africa (JNIM in Sahel region).

• Vulnerability to New Attacks:

  • Warns that intelligence gaps could allow another catastrophic event due to understaffed, overtaxed agencies—cites the near-miss with the 20th hijacker in 2001 as a cautionary tale.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On politicization of national security:

  • “He’s there, I would maintain he’s there to dig up more dirt that he might find in the intelligence files on Trump's perceived enemies.”—Jeff Stein (06:33)

• On post-9/11 government hysteria:

  • “There seemed to be a jumping from point to point on this nuclear weapons issue, and the string was never drawn tight.”—Jeff Stein (26:38)
  • “Bin Laden called it... his Hiroshima moment.”—Michael Lewitz (27:40)

• On the federal prosecution debate:

  • “In federal court, I am positive that we would have gotten a conviction in federal court for material support for terrorist group.”—Michael Lewitz (33:27)

• On systemic erosion of CT infrastructure:

  • “The complacency combines with the kind of refocusing of priorities is taking us to a pre 9/11 posture.”—Michael Lewitz (51:25)

• On the future threat:

  • “Can something fall through the cracks?... It's not really the capabilities, it's the manpower and the focus that I am concerned about.”—Michael Lewitz (55:42)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:10 — Start of security appointment discussion (Trump’s DNI & January 6th appointee)
• 07:30 — John Bolton classified information case
• 14:05 — Introduction of Michael Lewitz and Paracha case summary
• 18:48 — Paracha’s business connections and early Al Qaeda contacts
• 24:27 — Guantanamo prosecution strategy and internal debates
• 28:46 — FBI interrogation and the Agent Ruby incident
• 33:27 — Could Paracha have been convicted in federal court?
• 41:39 — Paracha’s ultimate release and fading public concern
• 45:24 — The legal disaster of military commissions
• 50:08 — Would-be handling of new terror suspects; present-day weaknesses
• 51:25 — Lewitz’s worries about the present national security mindset
• 55:27 — Cautionary tale from the 20th hijacker

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Conclusion

The episode delivers a sobering, insider’s look at the persistent flaws in America’s approach to post-9/11 terror cases—ranging from politicized intelligence appointments, flawed legal strategies, and the erosion of CT infrastructure. Michael Lewitz’s firsthand account and his new book Second Wave provide both a gripping procedural account and a warning about slipping back into pre-9/11 complacency.

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For more, listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts or visit SpyTalk on Substack.

Transcript

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[Michael Lewitz]

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MSW Media. A podcast at the intersection of intelligence, foreign policy, national security and military operations.

[Jeff Stein]

Hi there, I'm Jeff Stein.

[Michael Isagoff]

I'm Michael Isagoff.

[Karen Greenberg]

And I'm Karen Greenberg.

[Jeff Stein]

Well, hell's a poppin in our corner of the national security sphere, beginning with President Trump's startling appointment of Bill Pulte, a man with zero intelligence experience experience to be the acting Director of National Intelligence. And if that weren't enough, the hiring of a convicted 24 year old January 6th rioter Elias Rizari, to a post in the Defense Department Special Operations and Low Intensity Conflict office. There's also news about Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton. We'll get back to that and more in a second. But I also want to mention here that our special guest later in the show is Michael Lewitz, a former terrorism prosecutor at Guantanamo. He's got a new book out about one of those cases. It's called Second Wave Inside Al Qaeda's Post 911 Attack Plan and America's Secret Effort to Stop It Anyway. And where do we start, Bill? Py. I suggest.

[Michael Isagoff]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, among the, I got to say, you know, in a, with the White House that, you know, does jaw dropping things every day, this stands out as like, you know, jaw removal time. I mean, it's just, I mean, among other things. First of all, the guy is keeping his other jobs as, as, as head of the Federal Housing Mortgage Agency. So it says a lot about how important they consider the DNI job when it's clearly just going to be part time because this guy has all, he has two other jobs, housing mortgage.

[Karen Greenberg]

They did it with Marco Rubio and they still considered his job. I'm just saying it's not the first time.

[Michael Isagoff]

But the main thing is what is Pulte known for? He's a Trump attack dog. Who was first put in the Justice Department in charge of the weaponization effort, that which led ultimately to the slush fund and prosecutions of Comey and others. But when he said, when he was at the Justice Department, one of the really alarming things he said was, well, you know, we'll try to bring cases, and if we can, we will, but if not, we're going to name them and shame them. That's what he viewed his job as a Justice Department official is, you know, uncovering stuff to name and shame Trump's political enemies. So he really couldn't do that at the Justice Department, and he finally got sort of moved into these houses, closing agencies. But think of what he could do at dni. I mean, Tulsa Gabbard kind of like, you know, set the precedent with releasing all these files and then spinning them as showing some sort of treasonous conspiracy by Barack Obama. You know, this is what Pulte's gonna do. I mean, this is his main interest in life. And needless to say, he has zero experience in actually dealing with classified intelligence. It's not even clear he a security clearance.

[Karen Greenberg]

So, like, yeah, but you're assuming it's interesting. It's absolutely terrible. But. But in another way, you know, and you sort of said this at the beginning of your remarks, is that what does the Trump administration think of the actual role of DNI and the office of dni? To what extent are they willing to give it anything? So it may be that he's there to do whatever Trump's bidding is, but in terms of actually doing the job, which he doesn't know. Right. It doesn't come from any of the agencies it represents. I think it really bodes ill for the future of this office when the dust settles.

[Jeff Stein]

And what worries some people, considering his track record of being part of Trump's vengeance campaign, is that he will now have complete clearances to see anything he wants in US Intelligence. He can go deep into the vaults if Trump, and especially if Trump tells him to do that, to look for stuff on the Russia investigations and so on, anything that might be val. Trump is a transactional guy. And if he asks Pulte to go deep into the files and find something that he might find useful to bargain with Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping, I

[Michael Isagoff]

don't think Pulte needs to be asked. He knows what to do. But there is one really consequential product of all this, which is, is that Senator Warner, Mark Warner of Virginia, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, has said, unless this is Dropped. And Pulte is, you know, exiled from DNI. He's not going to support a renewal of 702 FISA authorities. Karen. Something.

[Karen Greenberg]

And this is what it took. And this is what it took. You know, we were all asking ourselves, what would it take to actually address 702 the way we need to address it, to make sure it is not misused, to make sure that maybe it's curtailed from. Get the whole 702 that I'm always writing about. And this is what it took. It's kind of interesting.

[Michael Lewitz]

Yeah.

[Michael Isagoff]

Well, let's see if Warner has the votes for that.

[Jeff Stein]

But I mean, well, it's not just Warner. I mean, there are a lot of Republicans are pretty upset about this appointment, too, and rightfully so. I mean, the guy has no, he's never even, he's never even been a private in the Army. He has zero national security experience, zero intelligence experience. He's there, I would maintain he's there to dig up more dirt that he might find in the intelligence files on Trump's perceived enemies. So anyway, I don't know if there's anything more to say about the appointment of this January 6th rioter to a post, I suppose a very low level post of DoD Special Operations and low intensity conflict office. But boy, talk about the campaign to rehabilitate January 6th, guys. I mean, they're back in the government. And anyway, as I said, not much more to say about that. John Bolton, back in the news. Tell us about that, Mike.

[Michael Isagoff]

Yeah, he is reporting today, and this is Thursday, June 4th. He has agreed to plead guilty to one count of retaining classified information, which apparently he is alleged to have shared with his wife and his daughter, family members, but not who apparently didn't have security clearances. So that's the crime there. He was sharing. And it wasn't actually the documents themselves, it was his notes. And he was emailing, yeah, he was emailing his wife and his daughter about, you know, what he learned from this classified material that he was going to use in some way for his, the book he was writing. Now, he's not charged with including it in his book because apparently he had to get some kind of clearance for that. But it's the sharing with the wife and daughter that's at the heart of it.

[Jeff Stein]

Stupid question. Is this a selective prosecution?

[Michael Isagoff]

Well, it's worth remembering that this is an investigation that began under the Biden Merrick Garland Justice Department. So they thought there was potential criminality there. You know, he had, you know, a top flight lawyer, one of the Most prominent in Washington, Abby Lowell as his counsel, who doesn't plead guilty a whole, you know, doesn't plead his clients guilty a whole lot. So one has to assume that, you know, when they did the analysis, that they didn't have a good defense for this.

[Karen Greenberg]

Well, from 18 charges to one. And the judge hasn't, you know, ruled on the plea deal yet. And we'll find out in sentencing. Mike, when is the hearing?

[Michael Isagoff]

June 26, I believe so. Two weeks away. But, I mean, look, he's also agreed to pay a $2 million fine, so that's a pretty hefty penalty right there. Whether he gets additional prison time, I don't know. We'll have to wait.

[Jeff Stein]

Imagine the ripple effect across official Washington, you know, how did it go with the office today, honey?

[Michael Isagoff]

Yeah, well, I can't talk about it. Right, right, right. But look, it's also worth remembering that this prosecution is bought after we had two successive presidents, both of whom retained classified information and both of whom shared it with others. In the case of Biden, his speechwriter,

[Jeff Stein]

Trump's documents at Mar a Lago, and.

[Michael Isagoff]

Yes, and Trump's documents at Mar a Lago, and he alleged to have shared, like, held up one of them to Susie Wilds. So, you know, in that sense, one could say selective prosecution.

[Jeff Stein]

Okay, well, let's get on to our guest today, Michael Lewis. He is one of the few American war crime prosecutors who also has experience capturing terrorists as part of an elite army unit out in a global war on terrorism. For almost nine years, he served as a prosecutor in the Gitmo Bay Military Commissions. Not just that, he was the only prosecutor to appear in a courtroom for the three major contested cases there. The 911 attacks, the USS Cole case, and a case against Al Qaeda's top commander in Afghanistan. Until recently, he was a senior attorney for the U.S. department of Justice National Security Division. So he's interesting, is a very interesting inside look. I have lots of questions about the way these cases were handled and the Casey accounts in the book Second Wave Inside Al Qaeda's Post 911 Attack Plan and America's secret effort to stop it. So let's go and talk to Mike.

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I just couldn't figure out where in

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[Michael Lewitz]

Was it scary?

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[Jeff Stein]

Michael Lewitz, welcome to Spy Talk. Your book, Second Wave is an autopsy of sort on the investigations and prosecutions of Saifulla Paracha and his son Uzair, who were suspected of helping Al Qaeda operatives to smuggle explosives, potentially a dirty bomb, into the US you tell the story like a true crime procedural kind of a law and order special terrorism victims cases. But unlike the TV show, there was no clear resolution to these cases. Sifulo Paracha was one of the 71 individuals that Gitmo deemed too innocent to charge but too dangerous to release. He was held without charges for over 16 years, but you make a case that he was guilty. Tell us about him and the pursuit

[Michael Lewitz]

of him and thank you for having me. So Saifulla Paracha is a fascinating character and individual. He was this gregarious, well liked, moderate guy who was a lawful permanent resident of the United States. He had an orthodox Jewish business partner. He had an import export business based in New York and Pakistan. And just he was the life of the party. Everybody liked him. He never expelled any radical views or anything like that.

[Jeff Stein]

He was a businessman and a very prominent businessman.

[Michael Lewitz]

He was a businessman that had, you know, he worked his way from nothing. One of the FBI agents I interviewed called him a force of nature. That what he did from coming from nothing to living the American dream was amazing and awe inspiring really. He had a loving family, but so he kind of overextended himself. Around 2000 he got involved, a little overextended in a real estate deal. He was kind of trying to get these luxury Pakistani seaside condos going and he kind of spent all his liquid funds. So at the same time in 2000 he goes to Afghanistan, gets an audience with Osama Bin Laden, hands Bin Laden his business card six months later in the spring of 2001. So a few months before 9 11, Khaled Sheikh Mohammed shows up at his office and he is the architect of 9 11. Then we kind of have this odyssey where he's working with KSM as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is known. KSM sends eventually after 911 sends his nephew Ali Abdul Aziz Ali to work with Paracha. And Ali is also a 911 plotter, conspirator. And then you start to find other things. There's other big name Al Qaeda operatives named guy named Abu Zubaydah Ramzi bin Al Sheb. And when they were raided after 911 in safe houses, they found like business cards from Paracha emails all indicating this plot that peracha was helping KSM and the Al Qaeda to essentially how to navigate global maritime shipping. Because our port system was kind of insecure and vulnerable. Because airline safety, of course, was heightened after 9, 11. So the idea was that they were grooming Peracha to help them smuggle explosives into the United States. And there is a lot of evidence supporting that. Then you get to the things of torture that of course, are not reliable. But then you have. What really set law enforcement in the CIA off was when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured. And he said, hey, I know this guy. And he says he knows how to obtain nuclear weapons. And then, of course, it turns out that Paracha was directly connected to Pakistani nuclear proliferators and intelligence people and terrorist sympathizers because, remember, 1998, Pakistan became a nuclear power.

[Jeff Stein]

Lots of interesting coincidences of his connections in your book, you. And I think that he explains himself pretty well. Remember, Osama bin Laden was a very prominent guy. I mean, he's virtually Saudi royalty. Very tight connection to the kingdom. Father had a huge construction business and he was backed by the us, The CIA during the war against the Soviets. He was quite a. He was almost a celebrity at that point. And so it wasn't all that unusual that Saifulla might have sought him out or been interested in meeting this guy, right?

[Michael Lewitz]

Oh, yeah. And in fact, you know, based on, you know, again, I write the book very, you know, objectively. I used to be a journalist before I was a lawyer. And, you know, I try to say his case very clearly. And I do believe that Paracha's initial meeting with bin Laden was completely innocuous. I think it was not based on terrorism. I think it was peracha. He was addicted to contacts. Remember his upbringing? He came from nothing. He had a Casio electronic organizer that was full to the brim of just contacts. Anyone of influence he would put in there. So, yeah, I think it was just his normal M.O. to meet bin Laden. I think he was excited about it. I think he was honored to meet Osama bin Laden. And I think it was an innocent exchange. But that's where the story starts to get ridiculous.

[Jeff Stein]

After 9 11, not so innocent.

[Michael Isagoff]

One of the fascinating things in your book, which I didn't know, even though I covered all these matters quite intensively at the time, is just how seriously the CIA was taking his case to the point where they wanted to name him an enemy combatant, throw him in a black site and subject him to torture. Enhanced interrogation techniques was their euphemism for it. And it was all based on the idea that he was important to a second wave of attacks that would involve smuggling a dirty bomb or nuclear weapon into the United States. Now, you said before that this comes up that KSM Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the architect of 9 11, brought this up, I'm assuming in his own interrogations. And that's where the basis for this came. Of course, KSM was being waterboarded 183 times, raising questions about how much credibility one could give what he had to say. But to talk to us about what the. What the exact basis for the belief that there was. There might be a nuclear component to this second wave of attacks and why the CIA was so worked up over it.

[Michael Lewitz]

No, that is a great question. So they. The CIA and FBI really didn't. They knew a little bit, but they didn't really know much about Cypherla Paracha. You know, after 9 11, it wasn't until 2003, when Majid Khan was captured. Now, Majid Khan was one of KSM's proteges, that he was kind of destined to be a sleeper agent because he was a refugee that lived in Baltimore. He graduated from high school in Baltimore. But Mashikan was also. There were a lot of red flags with him that we find out later in the book. He was kind of one of those. I spent 21 years in the Army. There's always a dirt bag everywhere you go. Al Qaeda has their own dirt bags. And I think Magi Khan was kind of destined to be one of the Al Qaeda dirtbags. So he wasn't the smartest guy there. But when he was captured, Majid Khan kind of said, oh, yeah, there's this father and son duo, Saifullu and Uzair Paracha. And the CIA was like, all right, we don't know about these guys. But then when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was captured, they asked, you know, they kind of asked about that. And I think it was the 15th water board or something like that where KSM was like, oh, yeah, you know, this is. He. He mentioned this guy Paracha that was helping us with nuclear weapons, and he knows how to obtain them. And then. So that's kind of the genesis of the immediate oh, my God moment. And that's when everything spun up. Because what then they did. They went through their files, and that's when they looked at raids that occurred in Pakistan in 2002. And that's when Paracha's name started popping up again. And all of a sudden, this name was just kind of popping up all over the place. But it was never, like, low level. It was always the highest levels where Magic Khan was directly connected to ksm. KSM is talking about the Parachas. Ramsay bin Al Sheb, who's like a 911 conspirator, he was meant to be the lead hijacker before he couldn't get a visa. In the raid of his house, there was information linking to Paracha. Abu Zubaydah is kind of like an Al Qaeda arch terrorist. They found it there. So all these confluences came to. And then I started looking at Franch's background and they realized he's not your run of the mill terrorist. He is a rich, powerful, connected guy that they couldn't just go and capture. And I think then they realized that he had, and this is the key to all this, is that he had an import export business in New York. And then they started connecting the dots and then, you know, and realizing that waterboarding might not be the most reliable. I totally get that. But when they start connecting the dots with other things and then the port system in New York, I think whether it was justified or not, the CIA was completely spun up and they got the FBI involved and it was a secret manhunt of the ages. It was probably one of the most important ones to them at that time. And they, as you mentioned, they CIA wanted to torture him and they actually got a memo that said that declared Saifullah Paracha to be declared an enemy combatant before he was captured. And that was a very unique situation, particularly with a lawful permanent resident.

[Michael Isagoff]

So you were a, we should have pointed out that you were a Guantanamo prosecutor and you were assigned to his case, I assume after he's rendered

[Karen Greenberg]

to

[Michael Isagoff]

Bagram Air Air Base in, in Afghanistan. Did you believe and push for a prosecutable case against Paracha?

[Michael Lewitz]

Yes. And in fact I write about the whole Guantanamo process pertaining to Paracha in my book. And I think I refer to me as one of the military prosecutors in. In the book. But yes, absolutely, I read every shred of evidence relating to Paracha. And I also was a Prosecutor on the 911 case. And as I was working on the 911 case, you still see when you're working on discovery and information like that, Paracha's name was just kind of always on the fringes of that case. So. But yes, I have a whole chapter talking about the efforts to prosecute Saifullah Paracha at a military commission. One of the chief prosecutors name was Captain John Murphy, a Navy captain. He actually agreed with me and he bumped Paracha to the top of the list of cases to be prosecuted. But then John Murphy got, I would say, let go, to put it nicely, fired.

[Commercial Announcer]

I didn't.

[Michael Lewitz]

He got Fired. And they brought in General Mark Martins. And I think I have a whole chapter named after the chapter is called who did he Kill? Because Mark Martin said that unless the person directly killed someone, he was not going to prosecute some random case. He did not want to prosecute Paracha because he was the oldest by far, detainee at Guantanamo Bay.

[Michael Isagoff]

How did you feel about that? At the time?

[Michael Lewitz]

I got viewed it as more of a. I was looking at more of a principal decision. And I believe General Martins was viewing it more as an optics. And I'm not saying he was right or wrong, because Guantanamo Bay and the military commissions obviously had and continue to have horrible optics. And I think he was. His heart was in the right place. But I think if you're talking from taking a principled stand, and I mentioned this in the book, I told General Martins that, you know, I think that Paracha should be held accountable for his crimes or what I believe to be his crimes before he dies a martyr at Guantanamo Bay. I didn't think that would help anybody.

[Jeff Stein]

I. I have to say, from reading your book, Mike, that you don't say. This is. This is what I inferred. It was kind of a hysteria, rampant at that point and understandable to a certain point. I mean, we've been attacked. You know, the main interest of the intelligence agency was, like you say, fear of a second wave that could even be greater. So I understand that. But in this lack of a better word, hysteria, great. You know, fear rippling through the agencies. There seemed to be a jumping from point to point on this nuclear weapons issue, and the string was never drawn tight. And from what we know now, Al Qaeda's interest in nuclear weapons was really aspirational all along. They never obtained a weapon or the makings of a weapon. They never, never really got anything off the ground on. On that case, John.

[Michael Lewitz]

Jeff, you're correct. And the book talks about how it was a very aspirational thing. I think bin Laden called it, you know, his Hiroshima moment to try to sort of get that second wave, that catastrophic attack. And the book kind of meanders along. It talks about different efforts that Al Qaeda did to try to obtain nuclear weapons. Most of them were through Pakistan because, you know, there. There was a lot of proliferation going on. But I think the issue with Paracha, and that's why I find it f fascinating with the hysteria, was that Pracha was connected to the father of Pakistan's nuclear program. You know, this was an individual that was in his Casio organizer that he contained his you know, containing his contact information. And so he was connected to that person, which definitely raised the hysteria level up even more. And then I think what didn't help the process was I go. The book goes in the. It takes you into the room of some of his interrogations with the FBI when he's finally captured.

[Jeff Stein]

Excellent, excellent work on that side, Mike. We really were in the room in these interrogations.

[Michael Lewitz]

Thank you. And the thing and what the interrogation write up does is it kind of shows you how the FBI, other than any waterboard that the CIA could do to anybody else, the FBI agent doing complete, lawful, normal, traditional FBI interrogation methods over the course of weeks, broke him down. And he wasn't tough nut to crack. And the agent got him to finally admit that he did talk to KSM's nephew about smuggling, you know, explosives to Europe. And, you know, Paracha even admitted that that was. He was pretty sure they were talking about chemicals. But then he finally got him to break down and Paracha was in. The FBI agent to this day is convinced that he was going to, you know, spill his soul to them and tell them the truth. And he was about to do it. And I don't want to give it away. But then something happens so unexpected that I will say that the FBI agent to this day said that it was one of the most shocking moments of her long and very.

[Michael Isagoff]

Well, you can leave it at that. On your podcast, spell out what happened.

[Michael Lewitz]

All right, so you know, Michael, you sold me. So.

[Michael Isagoff]

So you're easy to crack.

[Michael Lewitz]

I am not a tough nut to crack, unlike Paracha was. So we have. So the book talks about not just Paracha, but we talk about what's going on in the world, and I also talk about the people involved. And there was kind of an ancillary character to this story. I call her Agent Ruby. That's not her real name. She was an up and coming military investigator and military intelligence interrogator, because the military had just set up this organization. The acronym was citif, kind of this joint task force that was supposed to kind of gather intelligence. And they didn't really work on the big CIA cases. But all of a sudden, a big fish comes to Bagram in the military zone, and Agent Ruby wanted to be a part of it, and she lobbied and lobbied and lobbied. She was relentless. Everybody I talked to said that she was a force of nature and she was relentless. And they finally said, okay, you can be in the room. During the interrogations of Cyphila Paracha, along with Janelle Miller, an FBI agent And a CIA agent that we call Bob. And then the FBI agent was clearly the lead. And she told Agent Ruby that, okay, you can be in the room, but you're going to take notes. And Agent Ruby did not like that. And over weeks and weeks and weeks of interrogations, Agent Ruby can get more and more kind of agitated and just, she just, you know, she. She really felt that she would be the one to crack this case. This was her calling. And she truly did.

[Jeff Stein]

She, in a way, broke the case. She cracked it right off the rails.

[Michael Lewitz]

She did not become famous, but she did become infamous. This is one of those untold stories of the war on terror where in certain circles, I mean, Bob will never forget this. I interviewed him. Agent Miller will never forget this. It became notorious in the military circles. There was a lot of blowback about getting the, you know, the agencies more on the same page with the military because of what Agent Ruby did. So Agent Miller, the FBI agent, got him to crack. And he was rocking back and forth, he was sweating paracha, was rubbing his eyes, and you can tell the spell, you know, he was broken. And everybody in the room, at least Bob and Agent Miller said he was there, and he said, okay. And just as he was about to say it, his mouth started moving. All of a sudden you hear, we need to take a break.

[Jeff Stein]

I need to take a pee. Because Agent Ruby had an interrogation.

[Karen Greenberg]

So, you know, it's interesting, this book, because you try to make the whole book sort of like if you got the chance to be in front of a jury, this is the story you would tell, this is the story you would lay out. That's how I see it. And his son, who I hope we get to at some point in the podcast, does go to, who is ancillary in many ways to this case, as you tell the story, is tried in federal court, is convicted, eventually his 30 year sentence and his conviction is overturned, and eventually he goes home. But that, that's another story. But my real question to you is, had you been able, given the fact that the FBI was involved in this, had you been able, is your thought that had you been able to present this case the way you presented here in federal court, that you would have gotten a conviction.

[Michael Lewitz]

So in federal court, I am positive that we would have gotten a conviction in federal court for material support for terrorist group. And the reason, the reason for that is because look at the facts. He gave Osama bin Laden his business card in 2000. Okay, maybe you get a pass, right? But then Khalid Sheikh Mohammed shows up before 9 11, okay, maybe you get a pass. But then a lot of stuff starts happening. KSM starts asking Paracha to hold bags of money. He's holding like $500,000 in cash for KSM. And in the book talks about what I think the money was used for and what it was meant for and things like that. But then 911 happens, and Osama bin Laden is touted as even anybody who wanted to plead ignorance or willful mission, whatever it is, knows that bin Laden is the leader of Al Qaeda, a terrorist group. So what does Saifulla Paracha do? He continues to work with KSM, and then KSM's nephew, Ali Abdul Aziz Ali, and then he continues to handle money, transfer money, work with them and all those kind of things. He admitted, for a voluntary statement, that he discussed this whole business of at least shipping explosives, whether it was tangible or an idea, that's still material support. And then his business card was in Al Qaeda safe houses and things like that. So I think just on that basis alone, there's no question that after 9 11, he knew that he was working with Al Qaeda. And then if you want to take it a step further, Ali, Abdul aziz Ali in 2003 was captured, and they were still. They were working at that time with Majid Khan to do this kind of this other ancillary thing. And Safila Paracha continues to work with Ali, and they can. So, yes.

[Karen Greenberg]

So you're not worried. I mean, it's interesting how you deal with torture and the use of tortured evidence and how these stories are put together. So, I mean, I want to just be clear. What you're saying is you think that there was enough evidence that was not provided by things that Maajid Khan said or KSM said, but enough evidence separate from that that this could have been brought in federal court?

[Michael Lewitz]

I think that this case could have been done, at least for separatia. I think it could have been done without any classified statements. And when I was putting together the case, I had a whole binder of the classified stuff, but I had a whole plan. That's why I think I convinced Captain Murphy that this case was prosecutable, because I had a completely unclassified case based off of evidence that the FBI had obtained, whether through Pakistan, whether through the court system. A lot of it was the Uzir information that was admissible. Now, obviously, other stuff happened in his case, but I think. But we have bank records in Pakistan that I think tied him more directly.

[Michael Isagoff]

Michael, you said before, though, that the principal evidence that he might be involved in a nuclear smuggling plot came from KSM during his sessions, being tortured at a black side. So you couldn't have used that in federal court. So could you have gotten in anything that related this to some sort of nuclear or dirty bomb plot? What would have been the evidence other than ksm, what else that you could have gotten? They could have gotten you there, there.

[Michael Lewitz]

I love the grilling, and I have an answer for that. But. So thank you.

[Jeff Stein]

We haven't even started grilling.

[Michael Lewitz]

All right. So I don't think you would have gotten everything, but I think the parts that would have been admissible are Hirach's voluntary statement during his interrogations that he was speaking with them about, you know, smuggling explosives of some kind to Europe. He said that voluntarily. And I think the information that corroborates that are his business cards and his emails that were found in Al Qaeda safe houses. That kind of all corroborated that. So that's that part of it. Now, there were different points to this. It wasn't just the smuggling part, at least for a federal case, because as the book totally, you know, is completely open with, a lot of it was based off of the torture and things like that, but a lot of it. But the material support for Alaida goes with handling the money and the giving the advice and things like that, and

[Karen Greenberg]

given the hundreds of cases in which material support convictions were given in the decade plus after 9, 11, that comports with your theory. But I want to turn to Uzair because in a way, what you're saying is there was not justice as you would have argued it as a prosecutor for the father, Saifullah. Would you think there was justice in how the federal courts handled the Uzair Paracha case?

[Michael Lewitz]

I do. And the book talks about. There's a chapter that talks about how Uzir's case ended and kind of the decision making at DOJ and whether to give him a second trial. So I think Uzir is a tragic story. You know, I am not going to. And I think the book gets that across, that Uzier was not a terrorist in the traditional sense. He was a. And the book talks. He was a spoiled rich kid. And I think Uzir would have admitted that later on. I think he did. He was a spoiled rich kid, that he wanted to help his father's business. He was just. He was about to get married in 2003. He had nothing to do with terrorism. But he also was one of those guys, just like many other families, particularly, you know, traditional Pakistani families that he wanted to, you know, do right by his father. And his father asked him to do a few things. He asked him to help this Majid Khan guy. And Uzer is like, whatever. Because, remember, the whole point of Saifullah and Uzir Paracha's role in this really was they got in over their heads with this real estate deal. Al Qaeda offered them €200,000 to invest in the real estate, and Uzir Paracha was going to take over that part of the business. So Uzir viewed the Al Qaeda guys as clients. Like, if there's ever a businessman defense, Uzir had it. I mean, there's no question. The problem is. And this is where Uzir knew that he was working with Al Qaeda. And this gets to. I think what you're getting at, Karen, the Magican, and how it got overturned was that. So what happens is Saifulla Paracha, the father, asked Uzir to help this kind of other Pakistani kid who is a resident of Baltimore, to sneak himself back into the United States because Magi Khan screwed up his immigration papers. And Uzir is like, okay, this guy's kind of an idiot, but he's a client. And, you know, I'm going to go help my client out. My dad asked me to. So Uzir is hanging out with Maji Khan, and Maji Khan turns to Uzer and says, because Magi Khan was not the brightest, brightest guy, right? And he actually says, according to Magi Khan later on. And Uzer admits this and then recants it. According to them, Magi Khan said, hey, do you want to join the cause and be a brother? And Uzir knew that he was talking about Al Qaeda, and Uzir refused. He said, no, I don't want anything to do with Al Qaeda.

[Jeff Stein]

And yet he was not convicted on terrorism charges. He was convicted of helping Maj circumvent immigration procedures and so on. Cheat to fool the INS into his residency in the United States.

[Michael Lewitz]

Right. But the problem was that Magic Khan was a terrorist.

[Jeff Stein]

But I want to get back to the case of the prosecution against Saifulla at Gitmo, but we have to step away for just a second. So we're back. Siful is the guy who cannot be released. He can't be prosecuted. He ends up spending more than 16 and a half years in Gitmo, and then he's eventually released. So what happened with that?

[Michael Lewitz]

So this is why the book is not. I intended it not to just be a historical story in the traditional sense. Of what happened in 2003. I thought it was really important to tell the story of post 911 era from 911 to today to 2026. And what happened to Saifulla Paracha I think fits really well with, I'm trying to, trying to convey in the book that a few things happened was I think starting, I analyzed it, that around 2016 a sense of complacency really started in the United States where the public, even with politicians regarding international terrorism, you know, there wasn't a major attack in a long time. ISIS was kind of like had its rise and was kind of on the way out again. There were lone wolves, of course, but then life moved on, right? And then you had someone like Saifulla Paracha. And there's also another guy at the same time that was at Gitmo named Muhammad Al Qahtani. He was the 20th hijacker. He was the guy that was supposed to be on Flight 93. The 911 Commission talks about this, my book talks about it. And here's what happens in 2000 or 2022, they, they released Kahtani, the 20th hijacker. And then after Kahtani was released, they released Paracha with there was a two sentence statement for Paracha to saying like, all right, he's done. Usually every time they denied his release, there was a long statement about how he didn't accept responsibility. All they wanted is him accept responsibility. He wouldn't do it. So nobody cared. It was so anticlimactic. And it still took a year and a half to release Paracha after he was finally said he could be released.

[Michael Isagoff]

So yeah. So when that review board set up by President Obama released him in 2022, were you consulted before that decision was made? Did you argue the case for not releasing him? And if not, what was your reaction when you saw he'd been released?

[Michael Lewitz]

I was not consulted, but I wasn't surprised because President Biden in 2022 was, you know, it kind of had a lackadaisical approach to handling Gitmo because President Obama wanted to want to just close it down. Politics got in the way. President Trump's first administration, you know, didn't kind of didn't really do much with it. But then President Biden was trying to cut deals and that just kind of like nobody cared anymore. And I think I saw it coming and I always was looking to see when Pracha would be released. But once Katani, the 20th hijacker, was released, I'm like, there's no way they're going to keep Hiracha there anymore. And in October of that year, they finally released them. And I think at the end of the day, I'm probably personally okay with it because, I mean, Piracha served a long time without charge. My whole point was an effort to charge him was to do the right thing. I was trying to take a principled approach to it. I'm not trying to make me sound like the hero in this or anything like that. It was my job to do that. I think that case was certainly prosecutable, but I think Garacho lost a lot, maybe not legally. I do think it's kind of unfortunate that we're still having the conversation of whether, and we always will, because he's not convicted whether he was, you know, supporting Al Qaeda in some sense. But Paracha lost his family, he lost his contacts, he lost his wealth. I mean, his family didn't greet him when he arrived back in Pakistan. He lost everything. So, I mean, I just, you know, let him. Let him live out his days is kind of my view of that, to be honest.

[Michael Isagoff]

So larger picture here. Here we are on the 25th anniversary of 911 and the Milit Commission trials have proven to be a complete fiasco, Arguably the worst legal disaster in American history. I think the chief judge just in these last few weeks is finally supposed to make a decision or weighing a decision about whether all the tortured evidence can be let in to a trial of the guy who actually did commit 911 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. And to some people say, like, my God, you know, we've had this guy in custody for more than two decades. It's 25 years since 9 11. I mean, what, convict him already? Yeah, or transfer him to federal court or do something. Because clearly this process is ain't working. And it's going to be going on for years. Even if they get a conviction, there'll be appeals and then more appeals and I don't know, people throw up their hands and say, let me just add

[Karen Greenberg]

something to his question because there's a part of it that's in there. So you're going to like this one, Michael. So do you really think now after all this, that that what Michael's suggesting, that they could ever bring him to federal court? I shake my head as I say that. I'm asking you, can they bring him to federal court and without the tortured evidence and given the fact that he's tortured evidence, actually convict him?

[Michael Lewitz]

I believe so, yes. I believe with the evidence that the government has declassified evidence and probably some classified evidence that's not based off of torture. I think you can probably put that all together and do it. I wrote an article in the American University International Law Review a few years ago that did a real deep dive into Michael's point of why the military commissions are the way they are in a very objective manner. And it kind of talks about, you know, getting them to federal court a little bit and things like that. I think it'd be hard to do because the issue with that is, I mean, Eric Holder tried it with President Obama and here's what happened. And my book talks about this as well. And I think it's still an issue today to some degree, although there's a lot more complacency, as I talked about, is that the Congress passed a law saying that they cannot transfer Guantanamo detainees to the United States.

[Karen Greenberg]

Yeah, but they did that after the Gailani trial, which you also talk about. And that actually, I think, was the.

[Michael Lewitz]

Yes. And the Galani trial was a disaster. Even though he was convicted, sentenced to life. He was the guy that was convicted of the embassy bombings in Africa, but he was acquitted in all but one count.

[Karen Greenberg]

And I think destroying federal 284of285 counts he was acquitted on.

[Michael Lewitz]

Right. And I think people were just, oh, my God. Because Galani was the first and only detainee to remove from Guantanamo to New York.

[Karen Greenberg]

He was the test case. He was the test case for the 911 trial.

[Michael Lewitz]

And then we had the underwear bomber after that, where people are like, oh, why isn't he at Guantanamo? It just kind of spiraled from there. But, yeah, I think. I mean, I think you can do it. The military commission system, I think, is just the way the system was set up statutorily. Because military commissions historically were not meant to be a creature of Congress. They were meant to be exigent battlefield cases and trials when there was a war crime that was going on and they were on the battlefield and they had to handle what they handled. It wasn't meant for Congress to do statutory rules and things like that, which. And then you kind of get the death penalty in, which is the 911 case. And it becomes this hybrid. I call it a zombie court, because it just. It's something that refuses to die and it just keeps on going and nobody can kill it.

[Jeff Stein]

So spinning this forward to the present, we're in a real war of sorts with Iran. If we capture. From your vast and deep experience with the military commissions and all these cases, if we captured an Iranian agent or someone captured him for us, an ally who was plotting to, you know, a major terrorist act in the United States. Would you ship him to Guantanamo or would you bring him to federal court?

[Michael Lewitz]

I would say as of how things stand right now, do not ship them to Guantanamo. I just don't think that. I mean, because the military commissions right now, they're statutorily set up for Al Qaeda and associated forces. So what are you going to do when you do that? There actually was a guy that was extradited to the United States recently. I think he was an Iranian proxy and he was plotting to blow up a Jewish target in New York. And they brought him, I think from Turkey to the United States. So I think that answers your question from a practical point. I don't think anyone's going to want to do the political capital of just locking some up in Guantanamo now for that.

[Karen Greenberg]

Michael, your book ends in a place that's really unexpected, which is your fears for the present day. And you sort of pivot and talk about how whatever system we had in the past in terms of federal courts, etcetera, are ways of keeping ourselves safe. Whether it's dhs, you know, trying to or intelligence, or whether it's the courts themselves, a lot of the apparatus for detecting terrorism, coming up with policies for preventing terrorism and even things that have to do with the court system on the other end seem to be weakened, fragile. And you seem worried. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Michael Lewitz]

Yeah. So the book takes an analysis. This is where I tie in the second wave plotting to now because as Cipheracha zang Guantanamo and things like that faced about 2016, as I mentioned earlier, where that's when they started like leaders in Congress and administration started saying, hey you know what, maybe we can do some budget cuts, maybe like FEMA grants or things like that, things that are designed to protect like and enhance counterterrorism measures. And that kind of gradually went more and more forward as the complacency was going on until you get to a few years ago than now where it kind of falls off a cliff. So after 911 there were a lot of recommendations. The 911 Commission made recommendations, the FBI inspector general made recommendations. It was all designed as a whole of government approach to protect us from the next 9 11, the next catastrophic attack. And those have been eroded over multiple administrations, Democrat and Republican. But what's happening now is I think the, you know, FBI, law enforcement, dhs, the refocus to immigration, which of course the President is entitled to, you know, carry out his agenda. And the book doesn't take Any stance on any of those things. The issue is, is that I think what's happening is the refocusing is that we've lost thousands of FBI agents and analysts, which goes exactly contrary to the 911 Commission and FBI recommendations post 9 11, which is you got to retain and train the analysts and the agents and everybody, all the translators. And a lot of that's happening. Budget cuts are happening in certain areas. The focus is on immigration and things like that. And the concern is that the terrorist groups are reconstituting in Africa is where a lot of stuff is happening outside of our eye. There's a group called jnim. They're on the march in Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, Benin. And what they're doing is they're doing it different from the ISIS model where ISIS gathered the space and they've kind of focused on propaganda to attract lone wolves to do attacks and things like that. Where jnim, if they have a vicious leader, they could. And they could get people to come in there. They have the space to train people and plan a catastrophic attack if they choose to make their case. International and bipartisan military people. A lot of people are talking about Africa as the next threat point. And I think that's where we need to focus. We need to. I mean, and I think that's where the book kind of ends it with, is that that these threats aren't gone. They're still there. They're reconstituting in a different way. And the complacency combines with the kind of refocusing of priorities is taking us to a pre 911 posture. And if you want, I can tell you a quick story to tell exactly where this could go if you have a minute.

[Michael Isagoff]

Sure.

[Michael Lewitz]

So five weeks before 9 11, I talked about Muhammad Al Qahtani, the 20th hijacker. He showed up at the Orlando airport. They viewed him as. He was surly and he got interviewed. They viewed him as a migrant, and they sent him home. But what the investigators had in their hand was a travel itinerary with Mustafa Alhasawi's contact information. He was the main Al Qaeda guy who was handling the logistics for the hijackers in the United States. And Qahtani also had a prepaid paid phone calling card that they had that was connected to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Muhammad Atta, the lead hijacker, was at the airport waiting for Qahtani until he said he was a no show. Then they called him, said, oh, he didn't show up. So that is an example of where, if you're so focused on immigration and not focused on the national security part of it. Things can fall through the cracks. If there's anything from the book, it's that things can fall through the cracks if these perfect storms happen. And that's what the book is warning against.

[Jeff Stein]

How confident are you about the capability and expertise of US Intelligence to stay on top of this problem?

[Michael Lewitz]

I have the confidence with them. And don't get me wrong, I've worked with intelligence community for many years, law enforcement for many years. The concern now is that information might fall through the cracks. That's the bigger issue where, because you have, it's well documented that FBI agents are wearing multiple hats now. They've been focused on immigration while also trying to do the regular counterterrorism jobs. Dhs, same thing. And that's the issue with the Qahtani situation. Can something fall through the cracks? If you look back at the Qahtani time, look what happened. There was a guy named John o'. Neill, he was Frontline, called him the man who knew he was the Osama bin Laden expert that was screaming from the treetops that an attack was going to happen and he was trying to warn them. And he, he was kind of a colorful character in his own right, but he got, he got into it with the acting director of the FBI, a guy's named Thomas Picard. And O', Neill, prior to 911 got forced out of the FBI. And if O' Neill had been in the FBI, maybe he would have caught those cracks. So it's not really the capabilities, it's the manpower and the focus that I am concerned about. There's a way to do it and figure out the agenda without, you know, sacrificing international terrorism, stopping it.

[Jeff Stein]

Well, you've given us a great inside look at the prosecution of these cases and the war on terror, which is a really unique, I think, in a way, and, and it's kind of dispiriting, I must say for myself. The Gitmo mess, the prosecutions, the black site, torture, incompetent interrogators like Agent Ruby and so on, what a mess. But anyone who wants to get inside these cases would do well to pick up second wave inside Al Qaeda's post 911 attack plan and America's secret effort to stop it. Thank you, Michael, for coming on the show.

[Michael Lewitz]

Thank you very much.

[Jeff Stein]

And that's it for this week's Spy Talk. Be sure to check out our complete podcast archive on Apple or wherever you get your podcast. And if you haven't already, do Check out the SpyTalk Co news site on Substack, where we offer a steady diet of scoops and original analyses from the intersection of intelligence, foreign policy and military operations. Just go Google Spy Talk. You'll quickly find your way there. This edition of the Spy Talk Podcast was smoothly produced as always by Kanai and expertly edited by Molly Hawkey for MSW Media. That's it. See you around. I'm Jeff Stein.

[Michael Isagoff]

I'm Michael Is Goff.

[Karen Greenberg]

I'm Karen Greenberg.

[Jeff Stein]

Thanks for listening.

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