Ebola Risks, Ferrari’s Luce, & Pope Leo’s AI Warning 5/26/26

Summary

Squawk Pod – May 26, 2026

Episode Title: Ebola Risks, Ferrari’s Luce, & Pope Leo’s AI Warning
Hosts: Joe Kernen, Becky Quick, Andrew Ross Sorkin
Key Guests: Sebastian Mallaby (author, CFR), Dr. Scott Gottlieb (former FDA commissioner)

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Episode Overview

This episode of the Squawk Pod explores the growing Ebola outbreak in Africa, the Vatican’s first deep dive into artificial intelligence risks under Pope Leo, and Ferrari’s launch of its first electric vehicle. The hosts and guests dissect how geopolitics are evolving in the Middle East, the implications of unionization in the gig economy, and weigh in on both innovation and threats from advanced technologies.
The conversation balances market and political analysis, accessible tech skepticism, and public health concern, all delivered with Squawk Box’s typical mix of serious insight and banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Middle East Tensions & Oil Markets

Hosts: Joe Kernen, Becky Quick, Andrew Ross Sorkin
Timestamps: 02:38–07:17

• Escalation details: The US military sank two Iranian ships laying mines; Iran fired missiles at US planes, prompting further US retaliation.
• Diplomacy & politics: President Trump claims negotiations are going "nicely," but recent diplomatic signals are mixed and tense.
• Republican skepticism: Some Republicans urge a tough (“finish this”) approach, frustrated by perceived Iranian stalling.
  • Quote: “The minute I start feeling like one of those Republicans more hawkish, it's like, finish this. … Then I immediately think, oh my God, I'm a neocon.” — Becky Quick (03:39)
• Oil market reaction: Despite tension, oil prices dipped after last Friday’s head-fake about a deal, then stabilized, surprising the hosts.
  • Key point: Even with a deal, reopening strategic waters will take weeks due to insurance and logistics.

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2. Pope Leo, AI Risks, and the Vatican’s Critique of Silicon Valley

Guest: Sebastian Mallaby
Timestamps: 07:56–22:31

• Context: Pope Leo releases his first encyclical focused on artificial intelligence, warning of "anti-human" tendencies and unchecked digital power.
  • Quote: “This is not just a normal technology. This is not a shopping app. This is existential.” — Sebastian Mallaby (01:18, repeated emphasis at 17:16)
• Who appeared: Anthropic’s co-founder Chris Ola joined the Pope for the presentation, underscoring Silicon Valley’s involvement in the debate.
  • Quote: “Classic Anthropic, right? They're always reaching out and being the most keen on safety…If somebody is going to say that AI…is going to delight domination, exclusion, and death…there’ll be somebody from Anthropic there to listen.” — Sebastian Mallaby (15:37)
• AI and religion: Mallaby notes the religious overtones in AI discourse—rapture, singularity, and "uploading your mind" to computers.
• Tech motivation: AI leaders reportedly seek not just profit but power—the feeling of shaping humanity’s destiny.
  • Quote: “They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power…the sense of having humanity's destiny in your hands.” — Sebastian Mallaby (12:34, 17:16)
• Open-source AI concerns: Mallaby likens open-source AI to sharing nuclear secrets, pushing for stricter control over model releases.
  • Quote: “Would you do an open source nuclear project?...An open wait where everybody can do whatever they want. Nuts.” — Sebastian Mallaby (18:13)
• Company ‘race’: Google is described as the "second place runner that always ends up winning," leveraging scale, resources, and deep user reach.
  • Quote: “Google is just like minting money…They are charging more per click because the clicks are more valuable with AI embedded in search.” — Mallaby (19:24)
• AI costs and labor: There’s open debate about the sustainability of the current pace and cost (“token cost”) of running AI models, with some companies rethinking the economics.
  • Quote: "You could use Gemini 3.5...it's fast and very cheap. … I hope that humans don't get displaced en masse, because that's going to be horrible.” — Mallaby (21:02)
• Political impact trumps labor impact: The social backlash and policy disruption from AI could outweigh the direct loss of jobs—echoing lessons from globalization’s China shock.
  • Quote: “The political consequences of a disruption could exceed the actual labor market effects.” — Mallaby (21:45)

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3. Ferrari’s Electric “Luce” and the Tech-Style Car Launch

Hosts: Becky Quick, Andrew Ross Sorkin
Timestamps: 08:32–10:41

• Product launch: Ferrari debuts its first all-electric vehicle, the “Luce” (“light” in Italian), designed with Jony Ive (Apple’s former chief designer).
• Car specs: Five-seat, 0–60 mph in 2.5 seconds, $640,000 price tag, ~330-mile range.
• Sound design: Artificially amplifies the EV motor sound—mirroring digital camera “fake” shutter clicks to preserve sensory experience.
  • Quote: “It has its own engine roar, made by deliberately amplifying the natural sound of the electric axles…” — Becky Quick (09:59)
• Hosts’ reaction: Skeptical but amused, likening it visually to mass-market SUVs and critiquing the necessity of fake noise.

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4. Unionization of Rideshare Drivers

Hosts: Joe Kernen, Becky Quick
Timestamps: 10:43–12:18

• News: Massachusetts drivers for Uber/Lyft have formally unionized, representing almost 70,000 workers.
• Industry response: Both ride-hailing companies pledge to negotiate in good faith.
• Potential impact: Hosts debate possible cost increases nationwide and note differences in urban vs. rural market effects.
  • Quote: “It would likely make it much more expensive to drive. … Rates are actually pretty low and Uber and Lyft are taking a pretty nice chunk.” — Joe Kernen (11:40)
• Bigger picture: Segment connects to larger debates about the “dignity of work” and fair treatment in the gig economy.

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5. Ebola Outbreak in West Africa: Risks, Causes, & Response

Guest: Dr. Scott Gottlieb
Timestamps: 24:36–32:33

• Status: Over 900 cases, 220+ deaths—third-largest eruption in history, with a new strain (Bundibugyo) not previously widely tracked.
  • Quote: “This has been spreading for a very long time before it was ultimately detected. … This is an outbreak that's out of control in West Africa.” — Dr. Scott Gottlieb (25:27)
• US risk: Low, but not zero. Isolated cases could occur due to incubation period and travel, but the bigger threat is regional spread to areas with weak health systems (e.g., India, S. Africa).
  • “The real risk is to West Africa ... If [the epidemic] jumps to other markets that don't have [good] public health infrastructure ... it would be a public health disaster.” — Dr. Gottlieb (25:56)
• Role of funding: Unclear if recent US aid cuts played a direct role; US officials are now mobilizing money and resources.
• FDA leadership: New (acting) FDA commissioner Kyle Diamantis, a lawyer, is earning positive reviews internally for collaborative leadership—dispelling the myth that only MDs should hold the position.
  • Quote: “He does everything a good regulator should do … I think an attorney can run the fda and I think he certainly has a good reputation.” — Gottlieb (27:54)
• GLP-1s/Obesity Drugs: Multiple studies suggest reduced cancer risk among users, but more research is needed.
  • Quote: “I think there could be something real here. You know, the drug is impacting overall metabolic well being. … [But] the observational studies are very intriguing. They need to be replicated in prospective trials.” — Gottlieb (28:55)
• Ebola treatments: Several therapeutics and vaccines are in development or emergency use. Some monoclonal antibodies from prior Ebola strains may help.
  • Quote: “There's a drug ... called MBP134 that looks to be effective preclinically. Gilead has a drug, obeldesivir … Regeneron's approved antibody ... looks to be effective against this.” — Gottlieb (29:59)
• Science explainer: Bundibugyo strain hijacks immune cells, causing cytokine storms and clotting breakdown; supportive care lowers fatality rate vs. past outbreaks.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On AI Risk: “This is not just a normal technology. This is existential.” — Sebastian Mallaby (17:16)
• On Silicon Valley Motivations: “They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power…having humanity's destiny in your hands.” — Sebastian Mallaby (12:34; 17:16)
• On Open Source AI: “Would you do an open source nuclear project? Nuts.” — Sebastian Mallaby (18:13)
• On Ebola’s Threat: “This is an outbreak that's out of control … if they can't get control of this…that would be a public health disaster.” — Dr. Scott Gottlieb (25:27; 25:56)
• On Ferrari’s EV sound: “It has its own engine roar ... by deliberately amplifying the natural sound of the electric axles.” — Becky Quick (09:59)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Middle East Update & Oil Markets – 02:38–07:17
• Pope Leo, AI, and Vatican Critique – 07:56–22:31
• Ferrari Luce Launch & “Fake” Sounds – 08:32–10:41
• Uber/Lyft Driver Unionization – 10:43–12:18
• Ebola Outbreak Deep Dive / Public Health – 24:36–32:33

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Episode Tone & Style

The episode maintains a lively, candid tone blending Wall Street focus with real-world skepticism, humor, and the hosts’ signature back-and-forth. Expert guests ground speculation in research and policy, but playful asides and pop culture touches (Ferrari’s EV, camera shutter sounds, “Doogie Howser” jokes) keep it approachable.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking insight into the intersection of global politics, technological risk, financial markets, and public health—capturing both the big-picture trends and the human stories behind today’s headlines.

Transcript

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Joe Kernen]

Bring in show music please.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod, Pope Leo is bridging the Vatican and Silicon Valley with his first major teaching on AI. Author Sebastian Mallaby breaks down the risks and regulation laid out by the head of the Catholic Church.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

This is not just a normal technology. This is not a shopping app. This is existential.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Where humanity fits into innovation.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

The political consequences of AI disruption could exceed the actual labor market effects.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And gauging the Ebola risk with former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the earliest

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

cases may have been in March. So this has been spreading for a very long time before it was ultimately detected. And they started to take actions to try to mitigate further spread.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Those conversations today. Plus Ferrari's first fully electric vehicle, a formal union for rideshare drivers and the latest in the Middle East.

[Becky Quick]

If I were Iran at this point, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I really wouldn't.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's Tuesday. Yes, Tuesday, May 26th. Squawk pod begins right now.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Stand back. Goodbye.

[Joe Kernen]

In three, two, one.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Q please.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on cnbc. We are live from the NASDAQ market site in Times Square. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Happy Monday. Sort of. Happy Tuesday. Even better. Nice.

[Joe Kernen]

It's Tuesday.

[Becky Quick]

It's starting on a Monday Tuesday. It's like a hybrid of first day

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

of the week but only three more to go.

[Becky Quick]

That's the thing. That's a four day week.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That is.

[Joe Kernen]

Meantime, tensions are high in Iran this morning this after the US Military sank two Iranian Revolutionary Guard ships that it said were attempting to lay mines on the Strait of Hormuz. Now yesterday Iran responded by launching surface to air missiles and at US Planes. The US Then struck back at a missile launcher. A spokesman for the US Command said that the United States quote continues to defend our forces while using restraint during the ongoing cease fire. Now yesterday President Trump said on Truth Social the negotiations are proceeding nicely, he called it and that it would either be a great deal for all or no deal at all. Of course this comes after our the sort of Friday, I don't know we're going to call it Friday head fake. But an attempt on Friday to tell the world that a deal was in the offing and was done, that seemed to get a rebuke from a number of senior Republicans and has set all of this into a real new question all over again.

[Becky Quick]

The minute I start feeling like one of those Republicans more hawkish, it's like finish this. You went this far, you know, 60 day concession to talk about the nuclear. Then I immediately think, oh my God, I'm a neocon and I, you know, I'm ready to just jump in and just immediately. So I don't know how to feel about it. I just, you know, they've been a thorn on our side for so long and they're so annoying the way they pretend to come to the table and then talk cuff and then we don't know whether there are factions over there that realize midterms are coming up and want to wait and talk about, you know.

[Joe Kernen]

You don't think they realize that?

[Becky Quick]

Of course they realize I said they do. We know that they're over there playing us and playing the whole thing. But then there may be much more moderate, perhaps reasonable people that we don't even know about that we are negotiating with that are saying you can have this stuff and you can destroy it. If you listen to the hardliners, they aren't even discussing giving us the 900

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

overnight that there are no safe American bases in the region was the additional record that came out with this. But I will say both sides seem to not be pushing further in terms of taking the next step after this

[Becky Quick]

attack, counterattack, lifting sanctions, war reparations, you know, all these things that were if we're even talking about getting to that point and then taking 60 days to decide to get a final answer on the nuclear material, that just seems like we're giving them way too much. But then again, like I say, I don't want to act like a warmonger that, you know, some neocon that all he wants to do is

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

it'll take 30 days even from an agreement being reached before the strait is reopened because they need to.

[Joe Kernen]

And possibly longer with the insurance pieces and other things. I mean, I think there's a sense.

[Becky Quick]

And they're saying they're going to still

[Joe Kernen]

control months and months and months and it's our straight.

[Becky Quick]

And that's all charge a toll. What we're saying that they're saying is different than what they're saying.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yes.

[Joe Kernen]

But that's maybe why we publicly come out.

[Becky Quick]

Because it may be the hard line. Well, because hence because what hope springs

[Joe Kernen]

eternal for what we've been told. We've been told now, I don't know, half a dozen, dozen more than that.

[Becky Quick]

Right.

[Joe Kernen]

That a deal is done, the strait is open, it's all finished. It's figured out.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Like what surprised me was the reaction in the oil markets overnight. Again, WTI being down more than 8% last week and then it was down to $90 overnight, picking back to 92 47. But where there's nobody wants to. Yeah.

[Becky Quick]

And something. It could be an outcome that's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What are we 13 weeks in or

[Joe Kernen]

is it even longer than that?

[Becky Quick]

At this point there could be an outcome that's favorable. I mean, if I were Ron at this point, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I really wouldn't. I would not be talking so tough.

[Joe Kernen]

Put yourself in their shoes for a second. You really would not be talking so tough.

[Becky Quick]

No, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I'd want this over and I'd care about my people. You're lucky enough to be in power still that regime. And I just wouldn't. You don't have the same bluster that you had six months ago when you had all those drones and all those missiles and all those.

[Joe Kernen]

Not sure that's the case.

[Becky Quick]

Well, this has always been your viewpoint. But you know, that's by the way,

[Joe Kernen]

Corkin's got a sword, which has been the right viewpoint thus far. It's not been four or five weeks.

[Becky Quick]

Dow hit another new high. I mean, has that been your right viewpoint?

[Joe Kernen]

I didn't talk about whether the Dow is going to go up or down. I never did you go back and look at the tapes. I never tell you what the stock market ever.

[Becky Quick]

You didn't predict seven months ago a 30% rise in the S and P. We're talking crashes and all kinds of things.

[Joe Kernen]

So I didn't say how great it would have been.

[Becky Quick]

Think how great it would have been if you said, you know what I'm really thinking.

[Joe Kernen]

Really bullish.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Yeah, that would have been good too.

[Becky Quick]

Down would have been a change.

[Joe Kernen]

We would have been right. If you told everybody to buy stocks, that would have been good for you too.

[Becky Quick]

I've always known people to buy stocks basically and bitcoin.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

In the meantime, Pope Leo issuing a warning about artificial intelligence. He said that it threatens to normalize, in his words, an anti human vision and said that the concentration of immense digital power in the hands of a few private actors must be countered. He suggested that the risk as humans will be reduced. What he said are mere cogs in a system driven towards ever greater efficiency. At the presentation of the documentation, which is known as an encyclical, the Pope was accompanied by Christopher Ola, a co founder and safety researcher at AI firm Anthropic.

[Becky Quick]

And shares of Ferrari are falling. On Sunday, the company unveiled its new electric speedster. The Luche is named after the Italian word for light. You think it's the color Sorkin that maybe wasn't so I like the car and EV, I guess it's $600,000. It was designed in partnership with longtime Apple designer Jony I've. It looks like an ev and that looks like a. One of the. One of those ones that look like Thomas the Tank Engine. The the starting price, $640,000. It's the first Ferrari with five seats. It accelerates from 0 to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds with a top speed above 190 miles per hour. God, that looks like a Toyota RAV. It can travel roughly 330 miles on one charge. And Ferrari CEO spoke to our colleagues CNBC Europe earlier this morning.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

We invest a lot of money. We invest the right amount of money. We are focused, we are disciplined. We use the Capex in the right way. I think that we invest the right amount of money. And this initiative, this business initiative is in line with the profitability that we have also for other initiatives in the same range. So when we use Capex and use opex, we use wisely.

[Becky Quick]

The car has its own engine roar, which is made by deliberately amplifying the natural sound of the electric axles to the street.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Is that like a whining sound?

[Becky Quick]

Like it's fake? It can also be amplified in the cabin in performance mode. If you need the sound.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, I will say I still have the sound of the shutter click on my camera, which is totally fake from this because I can't stand not Having the sound there, it drives me nuts

[Joe Kernen]

to not hear, to not have the. Oh, you're saying you keep the sound off?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, I keep the click. Even though it's manufactured and fake, it's how you know you're taking a picture. Shutter click.

[Becky Quick]

Mine still does that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah.

[Joe Kernen]

Drivers for ride hailing apps like Uber and Lyft have unionized in Massachusetts. Now the app drivers union says it will represent nearly 70,000 workers in the state who now have the power to collectively bargain. They won the right to unionize in November of 2024 through a statewide ballot initiative. Uber said it would work closely with the union drivers and the state government Lift saying it was committed to engaging in good faith. And of course, this is important because we will see whether the effort to unionize in other states comes to fruition. There was a big effort, of course, in California and other places before, and how that changes, ultimately the economics of all of these businesses.

[Becky Quick]

If you connect the dots, what's the worst case scenario if it goes? It's bad, is it not?

[Joe Kernen]

It depends. We just had a whole conversation about the dignity of work and the church and about what it means to employ people and, and all of that.

[Becky Quick]

It will change the whole ride.

[Joe Kernen]

It would likely make it much more expensive to drive. Yeah, in places like New York City, it probably wouldn't change the dynamic much, but in other, in other, in other, in other states, in other parts of the country it would because the truth is the rates are actually pretty low and Uber and Lyft are taking a pretty nice chunk of that number. Some of those people, of course, are working part time, doing this sort of on the side. And then there's other people who are doing this as now a full time job and should they be getting the equivalent of full time benefits and the equivalent of what it would look like to be a full time employee or

[Becky Quick]

not live in the real world, though.

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Coming up on Squawk Pod, we're unpacking the Pope's encyclical on artificial intelligence with author Sebastian Malaby. The risks of innovation and the tech personalities in charge.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

It's not true that they're motivated just by profit. They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power. The sense of having humanity's destiny in your hands.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We'll be right back.

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[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Welcome back to Squawk Pod from CNBC. Here's Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Joe Kernen]

Pope Leo, warning about the risks of AI, saying it threatens to normalize an anti human vision, invited Anthropic's co founder Chris Ola to present alongside him. Joining us right now, Sebastian Malaby. Paul Volcker, Senior Fellow for International Economics for the Council of Foreign Relations, is the author of multiple books including a great new one called the Infinity Machine about Demis and Deep minds and AI. And you are like the perfect person to talk to about this, this situation with the Pope and what the Vatican was saying over the weekend. What did you make of what he said? Were you surprised by the way, that Anthropic was like right there as part

[Sebastian Mallaby]

of this classic anthropic, right? They're always reaching out and being the most keen on safety. And if somebody is going to say that AI, as it's currently configured, is going to delight domination, exclusion and death, which is what the encyclical says, right? There'll be somebody from anthropic there to listen and to say, this is an important statement.

[Joe Kernen]

What do you think the rest of the Valley is thinking right now?

[Sebastian Mallaby]

It's funny, you know, I mean, I think they know that there's this huge backlash, right? And this is an extra dimension of the backlash, because the classic backlash is jobs. It is my kids, their education is going to be messed up by these LLMs. You know, it's maybe, you know, a sort of sense of. A sense of. But this is existential. I guess that's the difference thing. This is the Pope saying humanity itself is being challenged by a new form of intelligence. And there are all these debates about is machines, can they be conscious? You know, we used to talk about the rapture in religion. Now we talk about the singularity, the idea of the afterlife. This is transhumanist idea. You upload your brain to a computer. There are all these religious overtones to the AI language. And maybe that's also part of the backlash. It's creeping people out, and that's what the Pope is articulating.

[Joe Kernen]

But when you think about the folks at Anthropic, or, by the way, even Sam Altman early on and others who've talked about sort of the real dangers that this technology poses. Demis has talked about the dangers, sure. Is that a marketing ploy to sort of prevent, or they thought it was going to sort of prevent the pushback later? Was that. Is that real to you? What do you think this. What is this?

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Look, I think it's totally real. If you take Demir Sosabez as an example, he founded his company after going to a safety lecture in 2009 by his co founder, Shane Legg, at which it was predicted that humans would be threatened by machines around 2030. And so this idea that this is not just a normal technology, this is not a shopping app, this is existential, and this is foundational to how these tech founders think about it. And it's not true that they're motivated just by profit. They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power, the sense of having humanity's destiny in your hands. It's even beyond the 21st century version of the nuclear material.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's what I was going to say. The whole idea that in order for this to be safe, you have to keep it open source. He's kind of pushing back on that. The idea that there should be any open source, I think he thinks is a little crazy. And maybe you do too, because would you do an open source nuclear project?

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think open source is, you know, the biggest miss by both the Biden administration and the Trump administration. Nobody is willing to say this is too dangerous. There was just some research out recently where some people took hold of the open source models, Both from Google DeepMind, the Gemma series, and the meta models, which are open source, and showed how you could remove the guardrails super easily and then ask it to talk to you about chemical weapons and how you would make them. So this is way too dangerous. We have Mythos that was proprietary. It was restricted, proprietary. Only 40 people, 40 institutions got it right. That's where we're moving to. That's where we need to move to. Is like being very careful about how we release this stuff. An open wait where everybody can do whatever they want. Nuts.

[Joe Kernen]

You've studied Google at great length, given your book about Damas. They just came out with some new models last week. I'm curious if you wanted to stack ranking them for the viewer right now in terms of how you think about where Google really lays in this game versus where anthropic is, versus where you think Sam Altman at OpenAI is and maybe even more meta is right now.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Yeah. So I think Google is sort of the second placed runner that always ends up winning.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right.

[Joe Kernen]

Okay.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

You know, it did not come out with ChatGPT first. It did not come up with agentic models as quickly as anthropic. It did not do coding genius as quickly as anthropic. But it comes from behind. It's got so much resources. You know, Google's profits just since 2022 have doubled. They are monetizing this directly. They are turning it into clicks and to, you know, click rates. They are charging. Not only have the click rate gone up, they are charging more per click because the clicks are more valuable with AI embedded in search. You know, it's more accurate in terms of what people want to buy. So Google is just like minting money and they've got a deep scientific bench. They have this enormous surface with consumers so you can serve them through search, AI mode, AI overviews, more than a

[Joe Kernen]

billion people, and they're about to be able to do that. With Apple and absolutely all of the phones. So how does that change things?

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Well, I mean, it's already embedded in the Android phone, the Gemini system, as you know, the Google model, as you say, it's going to be an Apple phone. Now everybody's cell phone in the world has, you know, Google first. Yeah. They're winning.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Not in a flashy way of having the best science at all times.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

But, but in a kind of commercial way of getting it to more people.

[Joe Kernen]

And then finally I wanted you to weigh in on what we were hearing late last week, which is just that the cost of tokens is so high and probably going higher.

[Becky Quick]

Right.

[Joe Kernen]

That there's a conversation at least in Microsoft and some other places in the Valley that maybe we're spending too much on tokens. Maybe it's actually cheaper for us to actually use humans to do our programming encoding and things like that.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Yeah, but you could use Gemini 3.5, that's the new model from last week and its great selling point is that it's fast and very cheap relative to some of the other frontier models. So, you know, again, I mean, look, I hope that humans don't get displaced en masse really fast because that's going to be horrible. And I support a tax on capital and less tax on labor to try to even out that balance. But you know, the frontier models are super expensive, but you can go to Google.

[Joe Kernen]

Do you want to weigh in real quick? David Solomon, CEO of Goldman Sachs had an op ed. I don't know if you saw it.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

I did.

[Joe Kernen]

Saying that the apocalypse is not going to happen.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Happen.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah, it's overdone.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Yeah. Another oracle who seems to know the future. I mean, look, it's super difficult. It's about the pace of disruption.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

I mean, and the other thing is the political consequences of a disruption could exceed the actual labor market effects. If you think about the China shock, when China entered the WTO over a 12 year period, there was a grand total of 2 million jobs lost because of Chinese trade. It's not very many in an economy which churns the whole time at massive speed. And yet the huge globalization backlash. And we could say the same with maybe David is right that you know, we create as many jobs as we destroy. But even so, I think the political backlash is a threat to these companies. It's a threat to being able to monetize the capex that they are doing. It's a question over the IPOs that they want to do. I think it's pretty important.

[Joe Kernen]

Okay, Sebastian, thank you. It's a great book. Go check it out.

[Becky Quick]

Thank you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Next up on Squawkpod, is there anything weight loss drugs can't do? Former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb joins us on the power of GLP1s in cancer treatments.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

I think there could be something real here. You know, the drug is impacting overall metabolic well being on top of the

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

idea that if you're losing weight, you would probably naturally be less prone to cancer.

[99% Invisible Narrator]

A History of the United States in 100 Objects is a brand new podcast from 99% Invisible and BBC Studios. Each week we're looking at a different object from across American history with a unique story to tell about who we've been, what we've built, and what we've allowed ourselves to forget. Some of these objects are well known, many are not. But all of them carry the story of how we got to this moment. Find a History of the United States in 100 objects on the 99% invisible feed. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're great

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[Joe Kernen]

You're listening to Squawk Pod up and Becky Cue.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Welcome back everybody. The number of Ebola cases continues to rise, along with concerns about budget cuts making the United States more vulnerable to diseases like this. Joining us right now is former FDA commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. He is a CNBC contributor and he serves on the boards of Illumina, Pfizer and United Health. And Scott, let's talk this through because already I think it's over 900 cases, over 220 deaths. This is already the third largest outbreak of this disease in history. What happened? How did things get so out of control so quickly?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right. Well, this is with a new strain of Ebola Bundibuja that we haven't seen before. It's been isolated in two prior outbreaks. They were both very small, the last, I think, in 2007. So they weren't looking for this particular strain. So when cases start started to surface, they weren't testing for it. And it took a while, a couple

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

of months before anybody.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right. So it looks like the earliest cases may have been in March. And so this has been spreading for a very long time before it was ultimately detected. And they started to take actions to try to mitigate further spread. It looks like there's multiple chains of transmission now that we haven't fully isolated. And so this is an outbreak that's out of control in West Africa. It's going to take them a long time to try to get control of this, unfortunately.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And the risk beyond that, it's spreading to other countries as well. We've already seen some planes that have been turned around, borders that have been closed as a result of this.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Right. And we've seen travel restrictions imposed here in the United States as well. I think the risk to United States is exceedingly low. I think there could be isolated cases from imported cases. There were people traveling into this country before these restrictions were put in place. We know the incubation period is about 21 days. So it's possible that there'll be cases here. I think there could be some isolated situations where you see a small chain of transmission. Again, I think that's low odds, but we need to be prepared for it. The real risk is to West Africa where this virus is out of control right now. And if they can't get control of this epidemic in West Africa, that it could spread to other populated regions of the world that don't have good public health infrastructure like India or South Africa. That would be a public health disaster because then it would become exceedingly hard to get control of this. That's, I think, the biggest risk right now, that it continues to spread in West Africa and then jumps to other markets that don't have the kind of public health infrastructure that we do.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There's a lot of criticism about funding from USAID that was cut beforehand. Is that part of the problem here? Is there anything we can do at the.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yeah, I think it's very hard to draw that conclusion right now, that the funding cuts contributed to this. I think, you know, we'll see how this goes forward. I know the US Government. I spoke to people within the administration just last night. There's a lot of effort underway across the State Department, Barda, cdc, hhs, sort of an all of government approach that funding putting tens of millions of dollars into the region right now. So I think the administration is focused on it. I think, you know, we can look back a year from now and see what impact if any of the funding cuts had. But it's too early to draw that conclusion.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There is a new acting commissioner at the fda, Kyle Diamantis, and there's a stat story out today.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

I'm quoted.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah, that takes a look at him. And overall he's getting pretty high grades from a lot of different people, yourself included, about what's going on. And I think the key that at least staff points out is that he's earned the trust of key career staff. He came in, he was relative unknown lawyer who'd been representing food and beverage and tobacco industry clients. But he's won over some of the staff there by listening and kind of following what recommendations have been made by the scientists.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yeah, look, he has, I will tell you, I speak to staff at the fda. He has a very good reputation inside the agency as someone who's worked through the process, works with professional staff to try to advance policy. He goes through notice and comment, rulemaking guidance. He does everything a good regulator should do and a good leader of that agency should do. And I think he's well regarded internally. I do think that there is this view that a food and drug lawyer can't run the fda. I disagree with that. There's a view that it has to be a physician, but that's sort of an outdated view that I think stems from when George Bush tried to put forward a lawyer to run the agency and ultimately the Senate rejected it based on those grounds. But that was more of a political fight that was going on between certain senators and the administration at the time. I think an attorney can run the fda and I think he certainly has a good reputation in the organization as someone who's been very effective.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Andrew, you want to talk, go.

[Joe Kernen]

You know, I always want to talk to GOP because I'm fascinated by it all. In the new report last week that got me even more intrigued by all of this is this potential that it is reducing the risk of cancer. What do you think of that?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yeah, look, these were multiple observational studies right now that showed this effect. And so I think it's very interesting. They obviously need to be replicated in perspective studies. Right now which are underway. There's been situations before we've had drugs that affect metabolic health like metformin that showed an antitumor effect in observational studies. It didn't pan out in prospective studies. That said I think there could be something real here. You know the drug is impacting overall metabolic well being. So that could impact glycemic control.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

On top of the idea that if you're losing weight you would probably naturally be less prone to cancer. There's something.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Well, there's anti inflammatory properties here. We know there's Glip1 receptors on certain cancers. So that could be a direct effect. But I think most people who are speculating there may be a real effect here are speculating around the anti inflammation inflammatory effects and the overall improvement in metabolic health. Again, we don't know. The observational studies are very intriguing. They need to be replicated in prospective trials. I wouldn't take the drug for that. But this could be something we ultimately discover.

[Becky Quick]

What are the. Just back to Ebola. What are the possibilities for therapeutics?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

That there's good possibilities. So there's a drug by Mapp Biotherapeutics, biopharmaceuticals called MBP134 that's a monoclonal antibody that looks to be effective preclinically. That's going to go into clinical trials. Gilead has a drug, obeldesivir that looks like it's effective in the study.

[Becky Quick]

And it just blocks something in the gene.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yeah, they block viral replication. The antibody obviously directly targets the virus. Also molupiravir, the drug from Merck that was approved for Covid looks potentially effective. Remdesivir is being used in the region and showed some preclinical activity.

[Becky Quick]

No, you can't use an anti like retroviral drug.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

No, it doesn't replicate because it doesn't use. Yeah. And there's two vaccine programs that are relatively advanced preclinically. One is built off the platform of the approved Zaire vaccine. Another one by Oxford University and the Serum Institute in India also looks like it could advance. The vaccines are at best six to nine months away. The therapeutics could be available right away. And the other point I'd make is Regeneron's approved antibody that was approved for the Zaire strain of Ebola. It's a three drug cocktail. It's a monoclonal antibody. One of those monoclonal antibodies in that cocktail looks to be effective against this and they're actually using it. I think the physician who Was hospitalized in Germany or Czechoslovakia, received that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He's doing okay.

[Becky Quick]

He's doing cytokine storm. Are we dealing with sepsis?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

So what it does is it hijacks immune cells. So it hijacks dendritic cells and then causes dysfunction of macrophages and that ultimately leads to a cytokine storm. And that's the, you know, sort of breakdown of clotting. So with supportive care, you can get these patients through it. The fatality rate with this particular strain is lower than.

[Becky Quick]

What do you call the strain at. What. What strain? You called it. I want to be able to use that term. Okay.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Yes. I just want to sound like I

[Becky Quick]

know what I'm talking about. So I'm worried about the buna boujee.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I had to circle it in that

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

because I never heard of Bundy Bujo. I'll give you the phonetic spelling.

[Becky Quick]

What was the other string?

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

The Zaire strain. That's the one that infected 28,000 people back then.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

Okay.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

Jesus.

[Becky Quick]

What's with the constant pandemic worries since.

[Sebastian Mallaby]

I guess we've always.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

We've always had. I think there's more focus on it now coming out of COVID Everyone's worried this is going to be the next

[Becky Quick]

Covid, but I guess it can happen.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

We've always had these epidemics, unfortunately.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Dr. Gottlieb, thank you. You are own AI chap up when it comes to all things health. We appreciate it.

[Becky Quick]

But you're not evil now, as far as we know.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

So I won't be denounced by the Pope?

[Becky Quick]

Yeah, exactly. We won't hear resident Doogie Howser a Gottlieb encyclical.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And that is Squawk Pod for today. Thanks for listening and thanks for starting your short week with us. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern. Follow Squawk Pod. Wherever you get your podcasts. Let us know what you think. If you'd be so kind to rate Squawk Pod or write a brief review on Apple Podcasts that helps other listeners find us. Have a great day. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow.

[Dr. Scott Gottlieb]

We are clear.

[Joe Kernen]

Thanks, guys.

[99% Invisible Narrator]

A History of the United States in 100 Objects is a brand new podcast from 99% Invisible and BBC Studios. Each week we're looking at a different object from across American history with a unique story to tell about who we've been, what we've built and what we've allowed ourselves to forget. Some of these objects are well known. Many are not. But all of them carry the story of how we got to this moment. Find a history of the United States and 100 objects on the 99% invisible feed. Wherever you get your podcasts.