A 5% Stake in OpenAI & Walter Isaacson 7/2/26

Summary

Squawk Pod – July 2, 2026

Episode Theme: America at 250, OpenAI’s 5% Plan & Future of Tech with Walter Isaacson & Mike Schroepfer

This episode explores the 250th anniversary of the United States with reflections on national unity and the country’s founding ideals, delves into OpenAI’s proposal for government equity stakes in AI companies, examines the infrastructure challenges of the AI era with former Meta CTO Mike Schroepfer, and spotlights the implications of wealth concentration, technology, and societal planning with Walter Isaacson.

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Main Topics Covered

• Celebrating July 4th & Unity at America’s 250th Anniversary
• OpenAI’s Proposal: Giving the U.S. Government a 5% Stake
• Tech & AI Infrastructure: Insights from Mike Schroepfer
• Historical Perspective & Reflection with Walter Isaacson

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S. Men’s National Team Advancing at the World Cup

• [02:24] US beats Bosnia-Herzegovina 2–0, advances to the Round of 16, significant due to playing with only 10 players for the last 30+ minutes.
• Economic angle: Goldman Sachs predicts 40,000 extra jobs due to the World Cup’s economic effect, impacting the June employment report.

Memorable quote:

Andrew Ross Sorkin [03:04]:
“It was really amazing because it was concerning those, you know, last 30 something minutes when you only have 10 men on the team... This was an incredible performance by the men's team and really great to see.”

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2. OpenAI’s 5% Equity Proposal for the U.S. Government

• [04:03–08:17] OpenAI is reportedly mulling a plan to offer the U.S. government a 5% equity stake—mirroring Alaska’s oil fund—and proposing other major AI players like Anthropic, Google, and Meta do the same.
• Goal: Distribute AI wealth more broadly, ease public backlash, and foster better government relations, especially with the Trump administration.
• Tied to: Public frustration over AI, energy consumption, and wealth accumulation, as well as competitive pressure from Anthropic.

Key insights and debate:

• Is OpenAI trying to “buy” government favor, especially for contracts, as Anthropic’s government relations have suffered?
• Would public ownership change the dynamics of AI’s economic impact?
• Is this a prelude to universal basic income via AI-driven wealth redistribution?

Memorable quotes:

Becky Quick [06:36]:
“To have a company that's about to go public kind of laying out the rules of the road for everybody else...I think it's going to be hard. I would think Meta would probably have a hard time with this…”

Andrew Ross Sorkin [08:03]:
“Jobs picture I think is the important one. And on this Jobs Thursday as we talk about it, what Jobs disrupt, disruption or destruction comes through as the result of AI? And I think that's still an open question.”

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3. AI Governance & Calls for International Standards

• [08:17] Reference to Sam Altman’s op-ed calling for a U.S.-led international forum to set safety standards, risk assessments, and democratization of AI access.
• Altman’s stance: Democratic processes, not just corporate interests, should wield power over how AI is rolled out globally.

Memorable quote:

Becky Quick [09:06]:
“Altman says it's critical that the world set standards before high performance models are broadly rolled out. And he says the most important decisions about how this technology is used should be made through democratic processes, not by a small number of companies in San Francisco.”

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4. Tech & AI Infrastructure – Interview with Mike Schroepfer (Former Meta CTO; Gigascale Capital)

Future of Compute & the Physical Economy

• [15:07–21:00] Focus on the shift from “software eats the world” to “AI eats software” and now bottlenecks in physical infrastructure: power, land, materials, network capacity.
• Gigascale Capital is investing in early-stage companies tackling these bottlenecks, e.g., new hardware and AI chips.
• Observations: Demand for compute will continue to skyrocket; even older chips are fully utilized; personal and business compute needs are radically expanding.

Discussion: “Overbuilding” and the Long-Term Demand

• U.S. infrastructure is experiencing a building boom.
• Even with overbuilds, demand and new hardware upgrades will likely absorb capacity.

Innovation Beyond Earth?

• Offshore floating data centers make economic sense, while ideas like orbital data centers are “cool and sci-fi” but uneconomical.

AI Company Competition & Meta’s Outlook

• Landscape shifts rapidly: OpenAI to Anthropic, with talent moving fast between companies.
• Meta seen as a strong contender due to Mark Zuckerberg’s continued involvement.

Memorable quotes:

Mike Schroepfer [15:07]:
“We spent 15 years with the theory that software is eating the world. I think AI is eating software and what's left is competition in the physical infrastructure.”

Mike Schroepfer [18:00]:
“Nvidia H1 hundreds, which are ancient by today's standards, are still mostly sold out... People are finding ways to leverage that capacity.”

Mike Schroepfer [17:00]:
“We're just 12, 18 months, 24 months into normal businesses trying to deploy AI. So I think we have lots of demand... and lots of opportunity to optimize the way these models work.”

Attitude toward OpenAI’s Proposal

• Schroepfer, a self-described “free market capitalist,” expresses skepticism about government equity stakes in major tech.

Mike Schroepfer [20:47]:
“I'm a free market capitalist. So I think that, you know, government support is great, but I think we should let the free markets sort of decide who's, who's the best product out there.”

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5. America’s 250th: Walter Isaacson on the Founders’ Values & Today’s Challenges

Revisiting the Declaration of Independence

• [23:14–34:05] Walter Isaacson encourages Americans to reread the Declaration, connect with founding ideals, and focus on unity.
• Reflection on the formation of the country through compromise and the ongoing struggle to live up to founding aspirations, especially around equality.

The Commons, Wealth, & Civic Responsibility

• Founders foresaw wealth disparities, emphasizing the necessity of a “commons” for social net and opportunity: schools, basic services, healthcare.
• Modern society should similarly ensure “enough and as good left in common,” referencing John Locke.

Walter Isaacson [27:29]:
“You can have disparities of wealth, but in order to make sure people don't pick up their pitchforks ... you say certain things get put into the commons.”

Interpretation of OpenAI's Government Stake Idea

• Founders like Franklin would be wary of state capitalism in information tech—would favor free markets over government equity in private companies.

Walter Isaacson [26:52]:
“He [Franklin] was against what you would now call State capitalism. He was for pure free markets. I think the notion...that the government would take a stake in information technology companies... I don't think he'd go for it either.”

Innovation, Healthcare, and the American Dream

• Need to balance innovation, private success, and public good so each generation has real opportunity.
• Healthcare as the commons: requires innovation, cost control, but must remain accessible.

Today’s Partisanship: A Call for Unity

• Deep polarization is today’s core problem.
• Candidates and leaders should be judged on their ability to unify, not divide.

Walter Isaacson [33:21]:
“If I were to look at any candidate or what's happening, I'd say is this somebody who's going to unify us or is this somebody who's going to do sort of performative, partisan ways to divide us? And you're not seeing that very much now... Let's see if we can have some candidates, not necessarily moderate centrists, but just people who believe in the basic values and civility and will try to unify us as a nation.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Walter Isaacson [21:27]:
  “If I were to look at any candidate or what's happening, I'd say is this somebody who's going to unify us or ... divide us?”

• Becky Quick [26:19]:
  Hypothetical: “If Sam Altman called up Benjamin Franklin and said... we are thinking of giving the US government 5% of our company... Franklin would say, what?”

• Walter Isaacson [24:08]:
  “Franklin’s great line when they come out with the Constitution is, you know, somebody says, what have you brought in there? A republic, madam, if you can keep it.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:14] – Walter Isaacson encourages reading the Declaration of Independence for July 4th
• [02:24–04:03] – World Cup win & economic effects
• [04:03–08:17] – OpenAI’s 5% government stake proposal & AI industry responses
• [13:58–15:46] – Mike Schroepfer on investing in physical infrastructure for AI
• [15:46–21:00] – Compute demand, AI race, floating data centers, Meta & Anthropic analysis
• [23:14–26:19] – Walter Isaacson on the Founders’ approach to compromise, aspirations, and statecraft
• [26:19–30:07] – Isaacson on the 'commons,' wealth concentration, and public-private balance
• [33:21–34:05] – Isaacson on unity and the threat of partisanship

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, insightful, and occasionally playful: Both laughter and hypothetical questions (“If Sam Altman called Benjamin Franklin…”) give the episode a lively, inquisitive feel.
• Reflective and critical: Especially when addressing American founding ideals versus current reality, tech industry governance, and health care challenges.

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Summary Takeaways

• The celebration of America’s 250th is an opportunity to reflect on unity, equality, and compromise.
• OpenAI’s bid for broad government participation in AI ownership signals major changes (and points to public discontent), but raises complex questions about market dynamics vs. public good.
• The AI era’s bottleneck is physical: building, powering, and maintaining the vast new infrastructure required for an “AI-eats-software” world.
• Historical perspective: The Founders championed compromise, innovation, and a robust commons, but were skeptical of direct government involvement in private enterprise—especially in information industries.
• The core challenge for the U.S. today may be to revive unity and constructive debate, resisting performative partisanship, while guiding society through a period of accelerated technological—and social—change.

Transcript

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[Becky Quick]

Wayfair every style, every home. Bring in show music, please.

[Cameron Costa]

This is Squawk Pod and I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. On today's episode, we're celebrating July 4th

[Walter Isaacson]

at the local level. We should all read the Declaration of Independence, eat a hot dog and remember how lucky we are.

[Cameron Costa]

Walter Isaacson wrote an entire book on the first sentence of the Declaration of independence for him. 250 years later, we should still be working on unity. And Metta is considering selling its AI compute power. Former Meta Chief Technology Officer Mike Schropfer maps out the future of tech big and small.

[Mike Schroepfer]

I think we're going to see a massive growth in demand and we're also going to see a massive growth in

[Cameron Costa]

efficiency, plus an historic, exciting victory for the U.S. men's National Team in the World Cup. And some folks are taking proposals to new heights like at the top of the Empire State Building.

[Becky Quick]

I don't want to encourage this, but nearly 1500ft in the air.

[Cameron Costa]

It's Thursday, July 2, 2026, and Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Becky Quick]

Stand back. You buy in three, two, one.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on cnbc. We are live from the NASDAQ Marketsite in Times Square. I'm Becky Quick Al with Andrew Ross Sorkin. Joe is off today.

[Becky Quick]

The US advancing to the round of 16 in the World cup with a 2 to 0 win against Bosnia Herzegovina in San Francisco.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This was awesome. I stayed up late to watch.

[Becky Quick]

I didn't get to stay up until the entire thing, but I was, I was watching pieces of it as it was.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It was amazing. It was amazing.

[Becky Quick]

So we've got, by the way, they

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

did it with the second half. With the whole or the last 30 minutes, I should say with one man down. There were only 10 players on the team. So how they held on to that was really impressive.

[Becky Quick]

So here we are, the US taking the lead in the 45th minute, but earning a red card in the 64th was then forced to play, as Becky just mentioned, a man down, more than half an hour. The US made a 2 to 0. Made a 2 to 0 on a free kick on the 82nd minute. This is just the second time the US has won a knockout round match in World cup history. And the Americans are going to face Belgium in the round of 16 on Monday in Seattle. One World cup economic note, Goldman Sachs saying that it estimates the tournament could boost the June employment report, interestingly by 40,000 jobs. And the official number we will be getting at 8:30 Eastern Time. Economists, they're expecting a gain of 115,000 jobs.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I was wondering what the watch party was like here last night. I don't if you remember yesterday when we were here, there was a lot of garbage from the day before. There had been a big watch party here. Looks a little cleaner out here today and I don't know if that's because it's so hot. It may have cut down on the number watching out here versus the number of people who are watching in bars or restaurants or different places too.

[Becky Quick]

I feel like I missed the end of this and I should have stayed up to see.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Was really amazing because it was concerning those, you know, last 30 something minutes when you only have 10 men on the team. They were already up two zero, but they made a huge point of just trying to keep the ball down the field the entire time, just keep it away from the goal. There was a really close kick that was in the last couple of minutes that just missed and went through. But this was an incredible performance by the men's team and really great to see. That's the guy who kicked the second goal in 2:0 and his dad, apparently he was born in Germany because his dad was in the military. Just watching some of the stuff that came through. They did a really great job of narrating it through it and very exciting to see. OpenAI is considering giving the United States government a 5% stake in its business and an arrangement that could more widely distribute AI wealth and help secure better relations with the Trump administration. This is according to the Financial Times, which says that the arrangement envisions Other AI companies like Anthropic, Google and Meta also contributing stakes that could grow and pay dividends similar to Alaska's oil wealth fund. It's not clear though, whether those firms would sign on to a proposal like this. According to the FT report, OpenAI CEO Sam Altman has spoken about public ownership with the President, also with Treasury, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick. He's also apparently spoken with Democratic Senator Bernie Sanders. Again, this is according to the Financial Times, but it's pretty interesting move at this and I don't know if it. If you feel like you're losing out because the public is growing frustrated with the data centers that are being built, frustrated with the wealth that's being accumulated that they're not being part of, with higher energy prices that are going up. With some of these issues, there is some pushback and certainly a lot of not in my backyard sort of mentality when it comes to the data centers these days. For OpenAI to negotiate this and say, oh, by the way, everybody else should give 5% too, also makes you wonder, is this a move because you're concerned that Anthropic is winning when it comes to enterprise?

[Becky Quick]

That last part almost invariably has to be true. But the other part that I wonder is if you're a Google, which has

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

been around for the last 5% of my stake, which by the way, I'm way more than just AI.

[Becky Quick]

Well, that's what I was going to say. Are you going to give, Are you going to give away your. By the way, there may be pressure and reasonable pressure to be born in a couple of years from now, depending on how you think I really changes the economy, where you really do have to say to yourself, okay, the spoils can't all go to one or two or three companies, but to have a

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

company that's about to go public kind of laying out the rules of the road for everybody else. As you mentioned, Google's been public.

[Becky Quick]

I think it's going to be hard. I would think Metta would probably have a hard time with this, you know, unless you told me that this was sort of an intel story where you thought you were. I mean, the argument I would imagine, if you're open AI to do something like this, is that maybe you'd capture every government contract.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Correct. If you are losing to everybody else, like understand why you'd want to make a deal along these lines to make the administration like you more and choose you. Because look, it's been a huge issue for Anthropic with the issues they've had going with the Defense Department. Right. That's been their biggest pushback to this point. If you can capitalize on that, it's probably a smart move for you.

[Becky Quick]

So we're talking about it in the capital. We are talking about it in this sort of very economic capitalization perspective. I do think if you talk to Sam and I've been talking to him for years about this, he was talking about UBI Universal Basic Income and what he thought this could do to the economic forces in our country for years. Dario has talked about this for years. So there is a sort of a larger societal impact question, particularly when you

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

think about the jobs that.

[Becky Quick]

And my only point is that it may very well be that in a couple of years from now, if it all goes the way they hope it'll go, that this conversation won't be about whether Google should give it over. A matter should give it over. It'll be like it otherwise. Doesn't make sense if they don't. But I don't think we're there yet.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Jobs picture I think is the important one. And on this Jobs Thursday as we talk about it, what Jobs disrupt, disruption or destruction comes through as the result of AI? And I think that's still an open question.

[Becky Quick]

Well, let me tell you about this op ed because it touches a little bit upon all of this. Following the government intervention in the rollout of some new AI technology in recent weeks, the FTA reporting officials are in talks with AI companies to set voluntary standards around the release of new models. And that could dovetail with a proposal from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman. In an op ed piece that Altman floated the idea of a US led international forum to establish a safety standards, assess risks and make the technology available to countries that follow the rules. Altman says it's critical that the world set standards before high performance models are broadly rolled out. And he says the most important decisions about how this technology is used should be made through democratic processes, not by a small number of companies in San Francisco.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That I agree with.

[Becky Quick]

It's a reasonable thing to think. Apple in talks to buy memory chips from two Chinese companies that appear on a Defense Department list of companies the US believes support the Chinese military. A Bloomberg report saying that Apple is now looking to source the Chinese components because of the worldwide computer memory shortage. And report says its CEO Tim Cook has personally appealed to the Trump administration, including Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen, about doing so. CNBC has reached out to Apple for a comment.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Obviously this is the huge shortage, just the scramble for chips, what that means for consumers with prices going up around for everything. And again, you can point back to the data centers and the open air boom for, for all of those things and prices going up. And that's again where you see consumer pushback and voter pushback on some of these issues too.

[Becky Quick]

Clearly.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah.

[Becky Quick]

Okay. Love at the top of the Empire State Building. A daredevil couple scaling the iconic building in Manhattan yesterday. They climbed to the tippy, tippy, tippy top of the building's antenna. It was quite a remarkable video. You can see it right there. I don't want to encourage this, but nearly 1500ft in the air, they did put up a banner that said, when the power of love beats the love of power, the world knows peace. I think a lot of folks originally thought it was a protest, but then after about a half an hour at the top, congratulations to them. I know it's illegal, but they got engaged up there. The mass climbers. I'm not going to pronounce their name Bear because.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And Angela Nicola.

[Becky Quick]

Angela Nicola. They are stars of the 2024 Netflix documentary Skywalker is a Love Story. They were taken into custody by the NYPD and faced several charges including reckless endangerment, criminal mischief, possession of burglar's tools, and trespassing. But they clearly got the attention of of not just New York, but the world yesterday.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That, I think was ultimately the goal.

[Becky Quick]

Yeah. Tease will be next.

[Cameron Costa]

Coming up on Squawk Pod, the future of compute for big tech and for consumers. With former Meta Chief Technology officer Mike Schroepfer.

[Mike Schroepfer]

You think about how much of a battery you lug around with you between your laptop and your iPhone. It's exponentially larger than it was 20 years ago. I think you'll be using way more compute in five years than you are today.

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[Becky Quick]

my place is kind of a big deal. If I'm grilling, chillin and watching hoops, my outdoor patio setup better be ready to play. That's where Wayfair wins. From patio seating and umbrellas to grills

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

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[Becky Quick]

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[Cameron Costa]

Welcome back to Squawk Pod Today with Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Here's Becky Shares of the company Bending Spoons are lower in the premarket this morning, down by about 7%. But that's because it was up about 40% in its debut trading day yesterday. That stock has been one we're going to be watching very closely. We've been talking to Luca Ferrari, who is the founder of the company. We've spoken with them several times over the last few years. Bending Spoons is an Italian holding company that has acquired some of the formerly hot Internet brands, names like aol, Vimeo, Eventbrite, also Evernote. They kind of turn these companies around by basically laying off a lot of the people who work there, having their own engineers re engineer and put in new features into some of these things. They've done pretty well with it so far, but again, we'll keep an eye on where those shares continue to trade.

[Becky Quick]

Okay. Apple reportedly preparing to launch at least five new iPhone models through early next year. This according to the Nikkei Asia company, also asking suppliers to prepare manufacturing for about 10 million foldable iPhones this year. It's up from an earlier forecast about 7 million to 8 million units. There's been speculation that that phone, by the way, could cost upwards of $2,000. Is the photo foldable phone given both the memory and price increases and just what it's going to be, it's going to obviously have a screen on the outside and then a screen on the inside that then folds. Meantime, Gigascale Capital just raising a $250 million fund to invest in early stage physical economy startups for climate impact building the next Generation of real world infrastructure. This from energy and industry industrial materials to AI hardware that's also going to be shaping future data centers. Joining us right now is Mike Schroper Schoper, he's Gigascale Capital founder and a former chief technology officer at Mehta. Good morning to you. What does it mean to be investing in the physical state of all of this?

[Mike Schroepfer]

Yeah, I mean the thesis was simple. We spent 15 years with the theory that software is eating the world. I think AI is eating software and what's left is competition in the physical infrastructure. We're seeing power, need for electrons, land network capacity, materials ended up being the bottleneck to many businesses today. And at the same time there's a whole raft of new technologies that are arriving that allow us to build these, this infrastructure, electrons, materials, etc. Physically better, faster, cheaper, cleaner. And in the United States, how concerned

[Becky Quick]

are you that we are in the midst of an overbuild?

[Mike Schroepfer]

Well, there's certainly a lot of building going on in every time in history when humans have had growth like this, there's been some overbuild. I think at the same time you're seeing companies making real money and lots of demand. So I think, you know, build and demand will be healthy for a few

[Becky Quick]

years to the extent that you have any anxiety about it. And we talk to lots of people who come on the air all the time and we have questions about these large language models, the new frontiers, whether it ultimately becomes commoditized. Does, does all of that matter or not to the build out on the infrastructure side?

[Mike Schroepfer]

I mean, I think we're still just at the beginning of the deployment phase of AI into the real world. It's a fast technology transition. But if you think about, you know, the iPhone and the app store coming out in what, 2007, 2000, it took many, many, many, many years, almost a decade to get really full diffusion of apps and all of the business built on top of that. So you know, we're just 12, 18 months, 24 months into normal businesses trying to deploy AI. So I think we have lots of demand. On the same time we're seeing lots of opportunity to optimize the way these models work, whether using smaller models or open source models or new hardware technologies. You know, we invested in one company called Fractile that's got a new chip coming out in a few years. There are lots of opportunities for 10x100x optimizations in the use of that infrastructure. So it's sort of, I think we're going to see a massive growth in demand and we're also going to see a massive growth in efficiency.

[Becky Quick]

And then the other piece of this though is, you know, for a long time people compared these data centers to, you know, the build out of fiber. I'm thinking late 90s. And on one end I think to myself, oh, fiber that, you know, even if you thought there was an overbuilding, we got to use that fiber. But that was like laying the train tracks, you know, down and you didn't have to replace the fiber. Really the question I have to you is, you know, as we develop all this, whether the chips ultimately, not that they need to be replaced because they don't work after a couple of years, but more because you're going to want chips that are the latest, greatest chips in the same way that I imagine you replace your iPhone every year or two.

[Mike Schroepfer]

This is the most surprising thing. You know, I thought the same thing. But Nvidia H1 hundreds, which are ancient by today's standards, you know, are still mostly sold out with hosting providers right now. People are finding ways to leverage that capacity. So I think, you know, the question is, will the average person, you know, use a whole heck of a lot more compute in five years than they do now? I think the answer is yes. If you think about how much of a battery you lug around with you between your laptop and your iPhone, it's, it's exponentially larger than it was 20 years ago. I think you'll be using way more compute in five years than you are today. And that is, you know, a huge room to grow, to use all this infrastructure.

[Becky Quick]

What do you think about space as in up there?

[Mike Schroepfer]

I mean, I think we have a lot of places to build here before we start launching things into orbit. I mean, we backed early a company that's building offshore floating data centers and my napkin mass as it, you know, about 100 times cheaper to put a ton of steel in the open ocean than it is to put it into space. So, you know, I think it's really cool and sci fi and fun, but the economics look challenging to launch my very expensive service into orbit.

[Becky Quick]

And as a former Meta guy, how do you think about their AI efforts? How do you think about all the, how do you think about the big frontier model folks? And I know, and I mean meta is obviously trying to be part of the, of that.

[Mike Schroepfer]

I mean it's, it's. No one has done well over the long term betting against Mark. He's still in founder mode, still involved in the company day to day. Matter does an incredible job building infrastructure, recruiting technical talent. They have a huge set of data. I think, you know, I would be long on matter and what they're going to do for.

[Becky Quick]

If you were betting on one of these companies though, who would you bet on?

[Mike Schroepfer]

You know, what's funny is it switches every 12 months. You know, 12 months ago everyone thought OpenAI was, was untouchable. Now it's, now it's Anthropic. I mean, Anthropic is pulling in a tremendous amount of talent all the time. I just saw, you know, former four to six former CTOs have all joined as just like members of the tech staff at Anthropic. So currently in terms of leading models, Anthropic looks like they're in a privileged position, but I think it's not a one company is going to win. I think a lot of companies are going to end up playing a big part in the race in the future.

[Becky Quick]

And then I don't know if you had an opportunity to hear us earlier, but I'd love for you to weigh in on, on this headline we've been talking about, which is this story from the FTSE that Sam Altman has effectively proposed, not just floated, but proposed some kind of effort for the US Government to take a stake in a company like I like a 5% stake, and also take stakes in all of the other companies, including your former company Better, and Google and Anthropic and the like. What do you, what do you make of that?

[Mike Schroepfer]

You know, I didn't see that, so I don't have time to really react to it. I'm a, I'm a free market capitalist. So I think that, you know, government support is great, but I think we should let the free markets sort of decide who's, who's the best product out there.

[Becky Quick]

We're going to leave it on that note on the 250th birthday of the United States. Mike, thank you for joining us very, very much this morning. Happy for

[Cameron Costa]

next on Squawkpod, we are celebrating America's 250th anniversary with author Walter Isaacson. He penned an entire book to honor this country's history and he's applying the values of our founders to today's politics.

[Walter Isaacson]

If I were to look at any candidate or what's happening, I'd say is this somebody who's going to unify us or is this somebody who's going to do sort of performative, partisan ways to divide us?

[Cameron Costa]

We'll be right back.

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[Becky Quick]

As the country gears up for its 250th birthday, we are joined by Walter Isaacson. He of course is the advisor partner with Perela Weinberg, Tulane, a university professor, CNBC contributor, and the author of the Greatest Sentence Ever Written, a reference to the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence, and a book that is worth reading or maybe rereading this this weekend. Have you gone to reread it?

[Walter Isaacson]

Oh no. I think we should all reread the Declaration of Independence. It's a something you should do on July 4th. It's a shame that America 250 is getting itself in competition with Freedom 250. That in the way we're celebrating this birthday on the federal level is all kind of confused and contentious. So I think at the local level we should all read the Declaration of Independence, eat a hot dog and remember how lucky we are.

[Becky Quick]

Okay, so what would the founding fathers think now?

[Walter Isaacson]

I think that Franklin would love Benjamin Franklin would love the technology. I'm just listening to your show on everything, including AI and data centers. He was into that but they thought Franklin's great line when they come out with the Constitution is, you know, somebody says, what have you brought in there? A republic, madam, if you can keep it. And I think they would feel, wait a minute. We pulled together, we made a lot of compromises, some of them difficult, maybe even wrong compromises, but you got to be able to keep this country together.

[Becky Quick]

As somebody who's spent a lot of time looking at this document and understanding these people, what do you think they would have thought was a mistake that they made today?

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, I think they thought that the Senate in particular, that we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, was not obviously a truth about America at the time when 1/5 of the people on the continent are enslaved, so many things like that, but that it was a forcing mechanism, it was an aspiration. And so they would look at history, at how did we do in making that sentence a bit better? 4 score and 7 years after they write it, Lincoln invokes it at Gettysburg when he's burying more than 7,000 young men who have died. To make that sentence more true, Dr. King invokes it. Seneca Falls Declaration of Women invokes it. So I think they would have said, hey, we wrote a perfect sentence, but we, they would say, hey, we did a mission statement.

[Becky Quick]

And what would they think of the Supreme Court today?

[Walter Isaacson]

I think, you know, maybe I'm optimistic and, you know, I think the Supreme Court is thoughtful and balanced at times. Obviously we all disagree with certain decisions one way or the other, but it does seem to be the branch of government right now that's trying to do balance. And balance is key to what the Declaration was all about. It's balancing the role of divine providence and the role of rationality. It's balancing things because Franklin said, you know, compromises may not make great heroes, but they do make great democracy.

[Becky Quick]

Okay, so if Sam Altman called up Benjamin Franklin and said, like a joke here, no, no, he said, hey. No, he says, hey, I got this new technology that I think you're going to think is really cool. And we are thinking of giving the US government 5% of our company. And we also think, by the way, that all the other companies that are doing this wild new technology should be doing the same. Benjamin Franklin would say, what?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What the heck is AI Well, I

[Walter Isaacson]

will throw Hamilton in to.

[Becky Quick]

Yes. I'm so curious how they would consider this.

[Walter Isaacson]

He created the first sort of what you would call network, meaning American postal system with franchise print. He was against what you would now call State capitalism. He was for pure free markets. I think the notion, especially when it comes to information technology, that the government would take a stake in information technology companies. Right. I don't think, I don't think I

[Becky Quick]

go for it either. Yeah, but, but I. But I do wonder what they would think about the concentration of wealth and how they would consider that today.

[Walter Isaacson]

They did think about that, and that's really important right now when we're talking about democratic socialism, whatever it may be. You look at John Locke, his second treatise, that's the foundation of the Declaration of Independence, and he said there will be disparities of great wealth. Because John Locke is sort of the patron saint of private property. You get to mix your labor with things you find and you get the private property. But what he says is when there are disparities of wealth, you have to make sure there's enough and is good left in common, meaning you have common ground where people who don't own land can graze their sheep. You have in the commons, police protection, fire protection, even health care. And so I think they would say, look, you can have disparities of wealth, but in order to make sure people don't pick up their pitchforks and, you know, try to destroy the government. And even for moral reasons, and even for reasons of giving each new generation an opportunity, you say certain things get put into the commons.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's an excellent metaphor for looking at where we are today. I mean, there was probably even greater disparity of wealth back then with the landowners versus what everybody else had at that point. But how do you develop the commons today? What are the commons?

[Walter Isaacson]

The commons are today what they were back then, which is start with the basics. Good schools, safe streets. You then you say certain other things should be in the commons, such as the ability to start businesses. You want anti antitrust practice and make sure everybody has the common ability to start a business. I think then you can debate as you would over, well, how much health care should be in the commons. Should it be public, should it be private? They did it back then, Benjamin.

[Becky Quick]

What do you think they would think about that?

[Walter Isaacson]

Benjamin Franklin makes a hospital company of Philadelphia. And you know what he does? It's a 50, 50 thing. It's a public private partnership, half funded by the legislature, half by private citizens. And it sort of tries to balance. How much health care do you give? These should not be existential arguments in which we rip ourselves apart. We should just say, all right, we figured out that police and defense and street sweeping and fire, that's all in the commons, let's figure out health care. What balance do we want? And I think when you have disparities of great wealth, and that's sometimes what you're going to have, when you have an innovative economy, you say, but let's make sure, as John Locke says, that there's enough and is good left in common.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, the health care. How do you do that when our growing economy has turned that into 20% of GDP at this point? I mean that.

[Walter Isaacson]

Well, first of all, you use American innovation, AI and everything else to try to figure out health care costs and keep them under control. Yeah, I think health care costs are a problem. That doesn't mean people don't need health care. I mean, look, you're doing that wonderful thing of CNBC cures and things. You have to tackle it with innovation. I don't think you can say, well, health care costs have gotten so high that we just throw up our hands and definitely not.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But everything we've tried to do to arrest that expansion seems to have fallen flat. We've gone from 15% to 20% while we've been focused on trying to figure out how to bring these.

[Walter Isaacson]

You know what? I'm not a total expert on this, but I do think, and you get back to the state capitalism when it comes to. To the AI companies, if you have a marketplace, if you have a lot of competition, I think there's very little competition. When I decide I need a knee replacement, I don't go shopping around. I'm not an expert on health care, but I do know that you can't have the American dream, which is that each new generation gets to believe they're going to be more successful than the previous one that was at the core of the Declaration of Independence. That comes when everybody has good libraries, good schools, safe streets and health care. We got to figure out a way to allow disparities of wealth to allow people to be really innovative and be successful, but to make sure there's enough that provides a foundation for the American dream. Each new generation having an opportunity.

[Becky Quick]

I have a different one for you.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yes, sir.

[Becky Quick]

Elon Musk.

[Walter Isaacson]

Yes, sir.

[Becky Quick]

So if Elon Musk were to hang out with these guys, they would think, what of him?

[Walter Isaacson]

Elon Musk?

[Becky Quick]

Of Elon Musk? Not somebody. Somebody who came to America afterwards. Immigrant comes.

[Walter Isaacson]

We have to remember, almost all these founders are in some ways immigrants. So, you know, they would get it. And they believe that America should be a magnet attracting the best. You know, I think that the people who would like Musk are the ones who are the sort of more driven entrepreneurs. And they're frontiers people back then. I think one of the things that they would not necessarily like is there's an edginess that in some ways our entrepreneurs have to have, whether it's musk or jobs or.

[Becky Quick]

But there was a coarseness back then, too. I mean, go back.

[Walter Isaacson]

But what the founders did when they gather in Philadelphia is they say, despite the coarseness, we're going to figure out we have a common values based on a diverse nation, people of different religions and backgrounds, and we're going to create something totally new on this planet, which is a nation in which wherever you came from, whatever your background, you're equally entitled in this country.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What's the state of the union 250 years in?

[Walter Isaacson]

You know, I think we're very, very divided and poisoned. And that, to me, is the biggest problem right now. If I were to look at any candidate or what's happening, I'd say is this somebody who's going to unify us or is this somebody who's going to do sort of performative, partisan ways to divide us? And you're not seeing that very much now. I still think there's a hunger for saying, all right, let's do, let's go back to the founding values. Let's know that all of our fights aren't existential. And let's see if we can have some candidates, not necessarily moderate centrists, but just people who believe in the basic values and civility and will try to unify us as a nation.

[Becky Quick]

Walter Isaacson, thanks. Thank you. Appreciate it. Happy 4th. Happy 250th.

[Cameron Costa]

That does it for Squawkpod today. Thank you for listening. Now, you might be off tomorrow, and you know what? So are we. But we have one July 4th gift for you, our listeners. It is a very special episode of Squawkpod. From Washington, D.C. our own Joe Kernan will be sitting down with President Trump. And you can hear that full conversation right here on your Squawkpod feed. Don't forget to hit the follow button right now so you get notified as soon as that episode is published. Start your July 4th long weekend with us and with the president. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. And you can catch them live for three hours straight every weekday morning on CNBC, starting at 6 Eastern. Happy Fourth of July.

[Becky Quick]

We are clear. Thanks, guys.

[Walter Isaacson]

Foreign.

[Becky Quick]

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