Squawk Pod – “Circle’s CEO & Elon Musk’s Threat to Apple”

Date: August 12, 2025
Hosts: Joe Kernen, Andrew Ross Sorkin (Becky Quick off)
Produced by: Katie Kramer
Featured Guests: Jeremy Allaire (Circle CEO), Steve Kovach (CNBC), Michal Levram (Fortune/CNBC)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into two major business and technology headlines:

1. Circle’s First Earnings Report as a Public Company with CEO Jeremy Allaire, reflecting on the rapid growth of stablecoins, the blockchain’s collision with traditional finance, and what it all means for the future of money.
2. Elon Musk’s Threat to Sue Apple over App Store treatment of AI chatbots—particularly the preferential placement of OpenAI's ChatGPT versus Musk’s own Grok AI—and how this fight reveals larger tensions in the tech sector, App Store curation, AI competition, and antitrust questions.

The hosts also touch upon trust in government data, recent changes in the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), crime statistics, and how numbers are shaped and debated in the political sphere.

Key Discussion Points and Segment Timestamps

1. Setting the Stage: Market Recap, Gold, and Crypto (02:39–05:45)

• Andrew Ross Sorkin presents latest market data:
  • Treasuries, gold’s drop following a Trump tariff announcement, Ether and Bitcoin’s performances.
  • “Bitcoin sitting just at about $118,000... Ether hitting its highest level since late 2021.” (03:20)
• Hosts riff humorously on a ceremonial gold bar Tim Cook gave to President Trump, bantering about its real value and weight (04:05–05:13).

2. Political and Economic Data Debate: BLS, Trust, and Crime Stats (05:13–17:24)

Bureau of Labor Statistics Shake-Up

• Trump’s firing of the BLS commissioner over alleged data manipulation and the new nomination of E.J. Anthony (Heritage Foundation), raising questions about credibility and politicization of economic data.
  • “The president had accused the last BLS director of manipulating the data... It hasn't been improved...” – Joe Kernen (06:09)
  • Sorkin and Kernen debate the value of diverse perspectives and potential bias in such appointments, referencing Project 2025 policy blueprints and how public trust is affected.
• Trust in numbers and crime data: Spirited debate over whether crime statistics in Washington, D.C., and other cities are trustworthy or manipulated.
  • “I don't believe it. I've been there. It's a terrible place. You're totally unsafe wherever you go.” – Joe Kernen (10:36)
  • “This goes back to the idea of numbers.” – Andrew Ross Sorkin (15:48)

Law and Order, Political Polarization, and January 6th

• Extended exchange about law and order:
  • Debate on whether the current D.C. crime situation warrants National Guard intervention, with Sorkin pointing out crime rate declines in data, and Kernen expressing skepticism and referencing personal anecdotes (10:12–17:24).
• Brief tangent on January 6th, Summer of Floyd, and how law enforcement is applied and perceived differently across the political spectrum.
  • “I'm conflating law and order with law and order.” – Andrew Ross Sorkin (13:45)
  • “It was over by nightfall, Andrew, and it was terrible. But it's not September 11th.” – Joe Kernen (15:24)

3. Elon Musk Threatens to Sue Apple – Antitrust and App Store Algorithms (18:00–32:13)

Elon Musk vs. Apple and OpenAI

• Steve Kovach summarizes Musk’s claims:
  • Musk alleges Apple is favoring OpenAI’s ChatGPT in App Store recommendations, disadvantaging Grok AI, and this could be an antitrust violation (21:28–23:20).
    • “This really, guys, follows a pattern we’ve been seeing with Musk, where if things don’t go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue.” – Steve Kovach (21:12)
• How App Store rankings work:
  • Steve Kovach explains there are two types of rankings: organic/download-based and editorially “featured” placements; Musk’s complaint centers on editorial curation, not the numerical top downloaded list.
    • “There are a team of humans over at Apple who decide what apps to feature on a given day... Musk seems to think he deserves to have this kind of free placement in there.” – Steve Kovach (21:31–23:53)
  • Musk’s app “Grok” (X AI) is currently running #5 in downloads, behind ChatGPT, but the real issue is Apple’s promotion/partnership with OpenAI (25:14).
• Satirical moment: Sorkin jokes about launching a “MSM Truth” app that editorializes the news from a conservative lens, lampooning the difficulty of winning the App Store’s attention (25:51–26:33).

Legal and Strategic Analysis with Michal Levram

• Levram suggests Musk “could have a case” if Apple is substantively manipulating rankings, but emphasizes larger frustration with Apple’s closed approach to AI partnerships:
  • “Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for powering its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation. But if indeed Apple is giving preferential ranking to chatbots, to OpenAI’s product, Musk could have a case.” – Michal Levram (26:51)
  • Levram highlights “murky” nature of Apple’s editorial/algorithm mix, making a legal claim difficult (29:06).
  • Raises wider questions about consumer choice in AI models within Apple’s ecosystem and the ripple effect on future innovation and competition (29:06–30:32).
  • “When you set up Apple Intelligence today, you do have one option, and that's ChatGPT...” – Michal Levram (31:18)

4. Circle’s First Public Earnings Interview –

Jeremy Allaire on Stablecoins, Crypto Regulation, and Finance’s Future (34:07–43:18)

Key takeaways from Jeremy Allaire’s discussion with Andrew Ross Sorkin and Joe Kernen:

Circle’s Growth and Real-Time Data Model

• 52% revenue growth year-over-year; USDC “in circulation” up 90% YoY, now $65.2 billion.
  • “We’ve seen this acceleration in transactions and that acceleration obviously is tremendous.” – Jeremy Allaire (35:40)
• Circle's metrics are transparent and updated in real time on public blockchains:
  • “Our main metric is available and its status is visible to the world on public blockchains in real time...” – Jeremy Allaire (34:38)

The Philosophical Debate: Stablecoins, Treasury Demand, and Bank Lending

• Are stablecoins boosting or cannibalizing the US Treasury market?
  • Sorkin raises macroeconomic concerns about how stablecoins are backed by Treasuries and whether this shifts capital away from traditional banks (37:31).
• Allaire rejects the idea that stablecoins “crowd out” lending:
  • “I actually think is a mistaken view. I think that when you have super high velocity, very high utility money, people are going to want to borrow that and I think we're going to see very robust credit markets develop that are operating on blockchain networks...” – Jeremy Allaire (38:22, 39:36)
  • Predicts new, more efficient blockchain-based credit delivery, with better transparency and “a safer financial system.”

Stablecoins, Bitcoin, and Global Dollarization

• Kernen challenges the concept of “safety” in stablecoins given dollar inflation:
  • “You could never do a stablecoin based on Bitcoin.” – Joe Kernen (40:06)
• Allaire: Global demand for digital dollars is real and increases US dollar’s international appeal, even as many want “less volatility” than other cryptos:
  • “The internationalization of these digital dollars… people don’t want to hold a volatile crypto asset in many places, they want to hold a dollar.” – Jeremy Allaire (40:29)

Circle’s Competitive Moat & Industry Outlook

• Sorkin presses on Circle’s future amidst increasing competition:
  • Allaire explains network effects, liquidity, and the challenge big banks face in dislodging established networks:
    • “Network businesses have network effects... We hope to be the most of the most.” – Jeremy Allaire (41:25–42:25)
  • Notes big banks, rather than building rivals, want to partner with Circle and that interest has surged since their IPO and regulatory clarity (42:34).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The validation that we've seen in Circle... is really about people understanding, I think in some cases for the first time, that the Internet is colliding with the financial system.”
  – Jeremy Allaire (01:18, 36:56)

• “This really, guys, follows a pattern we've been seeing with Musk, where if things don’t go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue.”
  – Steve Kovach (01:40, also 21:12)

• “Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for powering its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation. But if indeed Apple is giving preferential ranking to chatbots, to OpenAI’s product, Musk could have a case.”
  – Michal Levram (01:50, 26:51)

• “I don't believe it. I've been there. It's a terrible place. You're totally unsafe wherever you go.”
  – Joe Kernen, on D.C. crime stats (10:36)

• “This goes back to the idea of numbers.”
  – Andrew Ross Sorkin, on trust and statistics (15:48)

• “Network businesses have network effects... We hope to be the most of the most.”
  – Jeremy Allaire (41:25–42:25)

• “If you can’t get to the top of the ranking, that’s on you, Elon Musk. You have to make a better app that people want to download.”
  – Steve Kovach (24:49)

• “When you set up Apple Intelligence today, you do have one option, and that's ChatGPT... Yes, it does lead them to that route, to the chat route.”
  – Michal Levram (31:18)

Segment Timeline

• 00:00–02:39: Ads, podcast intros, summary of episode themes.
• 02:39–05:45: Market/crypto/gold review, light banter.
• 05:45–17:24: BLS shakeup, debate on economic/political data trust, DC and Baltimore crime stats, law & order.
• 18:00–32:13: Elon Musk v. Apple; App Store curation, antitrust talk, legal analysis, larger implications for AI model choice, and consumer freedom.
• 34:07–43:18: Interview with Circle's Jeremy Allaire: stablecoin growth, treasury dynamics, global banking partnerships, and future market structure.
• 43:54–end: Show outro and post-show sponsor content.

Conclusion

This Squawk Pod episode is a rapid-fire, wide-ranging discussion on the collision of tech, finance, and regulation in 2025—blending earnings analysis (Circle’s IPO growth and stablecoin implications), an inside look at the Apple–Elon Musk–OpenAI dispute, and a recurring theme of trust in markets, data, and institutions. The hosts, true to the Squawk Box legacy, balance skeptical banter with sharp questions for their expert guests—yielding insights particularly valuable to financial professionals, technologists, and anyone wrestling with how rapidly evolving ecosystems, from crypto to AI to App Store curation, will reshape winners and rules in the digital economy.