Circle’s CEO & Elon Musk’s Threat to Apple 8/12/25

Summary

Squawk Pod – “Circle’s CEO & Elon Musk’s Threat to Apple”

Date: August 12, 2025
Hosts: Joe Kernen, Andrew Ross Sorkin (Becky Quick off)
Produced by: Katie Kramer
Featured Guests: Jeremy Allaire (Circle CEO), Steve Kovach (CNBC), Michal Levram (Fortune/CNBC)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into two major business and technology headlines:

1. Circle’s First Earnings Report as a Public Company with CEO Jeremy Allaire, reflecting on the rapid growth of stablecoins, the blockchain’s collision with traditional finance, and what it all means for the future of money.
2. Elon Musk’s Threat to Sue Apple over App Store treatment of AI chatbots—particularly the preferential placement of OpenAI's ChatGPT versus Musk’s own Grok AI—and how this fight reveals larger tensions in the tech sector, App Store curation, AI competition, and antitrust questions.

The hosts also touch upon trust in government data, recent changes in the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), crime statistics, and how numbers are shaped and debated in the political sphere.

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Key Discussion Points and Segment Timestamps

1. Setting the Stage: Market Recap, Gold, and Crypto (02:39–05:45)

• Andrew Ross Sorkin presents latest market data:
  • Treasuries, gold’s drop following a Trump tariff announcement, Ether and Bitcoin’s performances.
  • “Bitcoin sitting just at about $118,000... Ether hitting its highest level since late 2021.” (03:20)
• Hosts riff humorously on a ceremonial gold bar Tim Cook gave to President Trump, bantering about its real value and weight (04:05–05:13).

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2. Political and Economic Data Debate: BLS, Trust, and Crime Stats (05:13–17:24)

Bureau of Labor Statistics Shake-Up

• Trump’s firing of the BLS commissioner over alleged data manipulation and the new nomination of E.J. Anthony (Heritage Foundation), raising questions about credibility and politicization of economic data.
  • “The president had accused the last BLS director of manipulating the data... It hasn't been improved...” – Joe Kernen (06:09)
  • Sorkin and Kernen debate the value of diverse perspectives and potential bias in such appointments, referencing Project 2025 policy blueprints and how public trust is affected.
• Trust in numbers and crime data: Spirited debate over whether crime statistics in Washington, D.C., and other cities are trustworthy or manipulated.
  • “I don't believe it. I've been there. It's a terrible place. You're totally unsafe wherever you go.” – Joe Kernen (10:36)
  • “This goes back to the idea of numbers.” – Andrew Ross Sorkin (15:48)

Law and Order, Political Polarization, and January 6th

• Extended exchange about law and order:
  • Debate on whether the current D.C. crime situation warrants National Guard intervention, with Sorkin pointing out crime rate declines in data, and Kernen expressing skepticism and referencing personal anecdotes (10:12–17:24).
• Brief tangent on January 6th, Summer of Floyd, and how law enforcement is applied and perceived differently across the political spectrum.
  • “I'm conflating law and order with law and order.” – Andrew Ross Sorkin (13:45)
  • “It was over by nightfall, Andrew, and it was terrible. But it's not September 11th.” – Joe Kernen (15:24)

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3. Elon Musk Threatens to Sue Apple – Antitrust and App Store Algorithms (18:00–32:13)

Elon Musk vs. Apple and OpenAI

• Steve Kovach summarizes Musk’s claims:
  • Musk alleges Apple is favoring OpenAI’s ChatGPT in App Store recommendations, disadvantaging Grok AI, and this could be an antitrust violation (21:28–23:20).
    • “This really, guys, follows a pattern we’ve been seeing with Musk, where if things don’t go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue.” – Steve Kovach (21:12)
• How App Store rankings work:
  • Steve Kovach explains there are two types of rankings: organic/download-based and editorially “featured” placements; Musk’s complaint centers on editorial curation, not the numerical top downloaded list.
    • “There are a team of humans over at Apple who decide what apps to feature on a given day... Musk seems to think he deserves to have this kind of free placement in there.” – Steve Kovach (21:31–23:53)
  • Musk’s app “Grok” (X AI) is currently running #5 in downloads, behind ChatGPT, but the real issue is Apple’s promotion/partnership with OpenAI (25:14).
• Satirical moment: Sorkin jokes about launching a “MSM Truth” app that editorializes the news from a conservative lens, lampooning the difficulty of winning the App Store’s attention (25:51–26:33).

Legal and Strategic Analysis with Michal Levram

• Levram suggests Musk “could have a case” if Apple is substantively manipulating rankings, but emphasizes larger frustration with Apple’s closed approach to AI partnerships:
  • “Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for powering its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation. But if indeed Apple is giving preferential ranking to chatbots, to OpenAI’s product, Musk could have a case.” – Michal Levram (26:51)
  • Levram highlights “murky” nature of Apple’s editorial/algorithm mix, making a legal claim difficult (29:06).
  • Raises wider questions about consumer choice in AI models within Apple’s ecosystem and the ripple effect on future innovation and competition (29:06–30:32).
  • “When you set up Apple Intelligence today, you do have one option, and that's ChatGPT...” – Michal Levram (31:18)

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4. Circle’s First Public Earnings Interview –

Jeremy Allaire on Stablecoins, Crypto Regulation, and Finance’s Future (34:07–43:18)

Key takeaways from Jeremy Allaire’s discussion with Andrew Ross Sorkin and Joe Kernen:

Circle’s Growth and Real-Time Data Model

• 52% revenue growth year-over-year; USDC “in circulation” up 90% YoY, now $65.2 billion.
  • “We’ve seen this acceleration in transactions and that acceleration obviously is tremendous.” – Jeremy Allaire (35:40)
• Circle's metrics are transparent and updated in real time on public blockchains:
  • “Our main metric is available and its status is visible to the world on public blockchains in real time...” – Jeremy Allaire (34:38)

The Philosophical Debate: Stablecoins, Treasury Demand, and Bank Lending

• Are stablecoins boosting or cannibalizing the US Treasury market?
  • Sorkin raises macroeconomic concerns about how stablecoins are backed by Treasuries and whether this shifts capital away from traditional banks (37:31).
• Allaire rejects the idea that stablecoins “crowd out” lending:
  • “I actually think is a mistaken view. I think that when you have super high velocity, very high utility money, people are going to want to borrow that and I think we're going to see very robust credit markets develop that are operating on blockchain networks...” – Jeremy Allaire (38:22, 39:36)
  • Predicts new, more efficient blockchain-based credit delivery, with better transparency and “a safer financial system.”

Stablecoins, Bitcoin, and Global Dollarization

• Kernen challenges the concept of “safety” in stablecoins given dollar inflation:
  • “You could never do a stablecoin based on Bitcoin.” – Joe Kernen (40:06)
• Allaire: Global demand for digital dollars is real and increases US dollar’s international appeal, even as many want “less volatility” than other cryptos:
  • “The internationalization of these digital dollars… people don’t want to hold a volatile crypto asset in many places, they want to hold a dollar.” – Jeremy Allaire (40:29)

Circle’s Competitive Moat & Industry Outlook

• Sorkin presses on Circle’s future amidst increasing competition:
  • Allaire explains network effects, liquidity, and the challenge big banks face in dislodging established networks:
    • “Network businesses have network effects... We hope to be the most of the most.” – Jeremy Allaire (41:25–42:25)
  • Notes big banks, rather than building rivals, want to partner with Circle and that interest has surged since their IPO and regulatory clarity (42:34).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The validation that we've seen in Circle... is really about people understanding, I think in some cases for the first time, that the Internet is colliding with the financial system.”
  – Jeremy Allaire (01:18, 36:56)

• “This really, guys, follows a pattern we've been seeing with Musk, where if things don’t go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue.”
  – Steve Kovach (01:40, also 21:12)

• “Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for powering its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation. But if indeed Apple is giving preferential ranking to chatbots, to OpenAI’s product, Musk could have a case.”
  – Michal Levram (01:50, 26:51)

• “I don't believe it. I've been there. It's a terrible place. You're totally unsafe wherever you go.”
  – Joe Kernen, on D.C. crime stats (10:36)

• “This goes back to the idea of numbers.”
  – Andrew Ross Sorkin, on trust and statistics (15:48)

• “Network businesses have network effects... We hope to be the most of the most.”
  – Jeremy Allaire (41:25–42:25)

• “If you can’t get to the top of the ranking, that’s on you, Elon Musk. You have to make a better app that people want to download.”
  – Steve Kovach (24:49)

• “When you set up Apple Intelligence today, you do have one option, and that's ChatGPT... Yes, it does lead them to that route, to the chat route.”
  – Michal Levram (31:18)

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Segment Timeline

• 00:00–02:39: Ads, podcast intros, summary of episode themes.
• 02:39–05:45: Market/crypto/gold review, light banter.
• 05:45–17:24: BLS shakeup, debate on economic/political data trust, DC and Baltimore crime stats, law & order.
• 18:00–32:13: Elon Musk v. Apple; App Store curation, antitrust talk, legal analysis, larger implications for AI model choice, and consumer freedom.
• 34:07–43:18: Interview with Circle's Jeremy Allaire: stablecoin growth, treasury dynamics, global banking partnerships, and future market structure.
• 43:54–end: Show outro and post-show sponsor content.

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Conclusion

This Squawk Pod episode is a rapid-fire, wide-ranging discussion on the collision of tech, finance, and regulation in 2025—blending earnings analysis (Circle’s IPO growth and stablecoin implications), an inside look at the Apple–Elon Musk–OpenAI dispute, and a recurring theme of trust in markets, data, and institutions. The hosts, true to the Squawk Box legacy, balance skeptical banter with sharp questions for their expert guests—yielding insights particularly valuable to financial professionals, technologists, and anyone wrestling with how rapidly evolving ecosystems, from crypto to AI to App Store curation, will reshape winners and rules in the digital economy.

Transcript

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The heaviest metal credit card of all time, rumored to be one of only 18 in existence, plated with the very same tungsten that forged the international space Station and wielded at business dinners like a samurai sword. It's a classic corporate power move, but the real power move having end to end visibility on your most critical shipments. FedEx the new power move.

[Podcast Host (Schwab Market Update)]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] MarketUpdatePodcast or find Schwab Market Update. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Bring in show music please.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Coming up today on Squawk Pod, the future of finance with Circle's co founder Jeremy Allaire in his first earnings interview since his crypto native company went public.

[Jeremy Allaire]

The validation that we've seen in Circle and the sentiment around Circle is really about people understanding, I think in some cases for the first time that the Internet is colliding with the financial system.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Elon Musk threatening to sue Apple over X AI's position in the App Store recommendations. CNBC's Steve Kovac.

[Steve Kovach]

This really guys follows a pattern we've been seeing with Musk where if things don't go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

And contributor Michal Levram on the legal standing.

[Michal Levram]

You know, Musk could have a case. I think what he's really like unleashed here though is some real frustrations with Apple's AI strategy.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Plus all that glitters in gifts to the Oval Office.

[Joe Kernen]

I mean to move a gold bar you need to put some.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Have you ever seen the guns on Tim Cook? This guy has arms.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

And a new head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics named.

[Joe Kernen]

You'd rather have one of our left leaning guests on the bs?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I don't. I'm not suggesting that you want someone.

[Joe Kernen]

Perfectly right in the middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I want somebody who besides you is.

[Joe Kernen]

And I don't know who is that.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

At a time when trust and numbers don't always align, I think that crime.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

In D.C. is actually down.

[Joe Kernen]

It's not. I don't believe it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You don't believe it.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

It's Tuesday, August 12th. Squawk Pod begins right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Stand Andrew by in 3, 2, 1. Q. Andrew, good morning and welcome to Squawk Box. Right here on CNBC. We're live @ the NASDAQ markets at Times Square. I'm a draw Sorkin along with Joe Kernan. Becky is off today, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that's going on. Take a look at Treasuries right now because we're going to show you the 10 year and the 2 year the 10 year at 4.27. The 2 year sitting at 3.76. And then check out gold because it was down 2.5% yesterday. That was about its worst day in about three months. Now, the decline following an announcement by President Trump that the US Won't be imposing tariffs on imported gold bars. But let's also show you crypto because yesterday ether hitting its highest level since late 2021. That's at 4,290. Right now we got Bitcoin sitting just at about $118,000, $118,449 to be exact. We're going to talk crypto later this hour with Circle's CEO Jeremy Allaire. And that stock has been one of the great phenoms of our time. It's really the only way to get into to buy from the public markets into stablecoins quickly.

[Joe Kernen]

On gold. People that watched Tim Cook and we didn't, we should have figured this out that watched him give that gold bar whatever you want with the glass on top to President Trump. He very easily was able to move that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You're trying to suggest it was not as heavy as it really could have been.

[Joe Kernen]

It wasn't. And it was gold plated. 24 karat gold plated nonetheless.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But probably hollow or made in Utah.

[Joe Kernen]

Made Utah, but probably hollow. But because we forget I mean gold to move a gold bar, you need to put some.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Have you ever seen the guns on Tim Cook? This guy has arms. So this guy.

[Joe Kernen]

So you're saying.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm just saying.

[Joe Kernen]

You're saying that it could have been solid and we wouldn't know it because it would have been effortless.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He makes everything look effortless.

[Joe Kernen]

He does. I'm just saying that. And I think, you know, if it was a gold, solid gold, you talk about like over a million dollars probably. So that would have this way. You know, it was nice but it's not like a million dollar. Like if I got this is what it's like. And I know you celebrate all our holiday.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I do.

[Joe Kernen]

You do Easter too. Love it when you get one of those bunnies and you're getting ready to eat it and you grab it A little hard and it just.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yeah. And it just breaks apart.

[Joe Kernen]

Totally different. Yeah, totally different. E.J. anthony is on our show a lot. President Trump announcing he's going to nominate Heritage foundation chief economist E.J. anthony to be the next commissioner of the BLS Arlos. Maybe the BLS's gain. He's going to replace Erica McEntifer, who just, you know, seems like a fine person. But that name, every time. This is an uptick there a lot easier. President Trump. Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

First five years to say, maybe you.

[Joe Kernen]

Would have said the. You would just. I guarantee you, you would have said the old BLS commissioner that was fired. That's how you would have probably gotten around.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's how I would have done it one way.

[Joe Kernen]

But I thought about it and then I said, you know what I'm saying?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Tricks on tv.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah. No one at home's gonna know either way. So I'm going with McKent, who President Trump fired on Aug. 1 following a worse than expected jobs report.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

At this point, I would have learned her name.

[Joe Kernen]

So I'm a little worried about. I hope the CPI isn't like, crazy, because. No, we do have to trust these numbers. These are as good as it gets, probably around the world, most of the numbers that we do generate. The president had accused the last BLS director of manipulating the data. And then when we spoke to the president, I tried to talk him into, look, the data is so bad and it hasn't been improved that there's plenty of reasons maybe to try and get somebody else to do it without saying that it was politically motivated. Anthony, by the way, was a contributor to the Project 2025 policy blueprint. Frequent squawk box gas. President Trump adviser Steve Bannon had been pushing for him to be nominated.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Can I say, here's my thing. I always thought he was fascinating to talk to, and I. Anthony. Anthony always enjoyed speaking with him. But one of the things that we always tried to do with our panel was to try to have different kinds of voices from different kinds of perspectives. He's a Heritage founder.

[Joe Kernen]

All you gotta say is Heritage.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right. We've also had people, you know, from Yale and Democrats and all sorts of things. And you want the mix on a show when the numbers are coming out so you can get.

[Joe Kernen]

So you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Different perspectives of the analysis.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

All I'm suggesting is when it comes to the. We talk about the credibility of the numbers.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I don't know him so well, so I don't want to know.

[Joe Kernen]

I think you're. I think you're Barking up the wrong. But I do think neck of the woods.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, I think you look, everybody's going.

[Joe Kernen]

To be somewhere on the political spectrum.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right. But you'd rather have.

[Joe Kernen]

If he. Someone who leaned a little left. You'd rather have one of our left leaning guests.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't. I'm not suggesting that you want some.

[Joe Kernen]

Someone perfectly right in the middle.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I want somebody that. I want somebody who besides you is.

[Joe Kernen]

Besides you. Who is that?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He may be unimpeachable. By the way. I don't know him. I don't know him personally.

[Joe Kernen]

Well, I would, I would assume he is from. That would be my default position.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That's the default position.

[Joe Kernen]

Absolutely.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That everybody's unimpeachable.

[Joe Kernen]

No, that's how you start that. If you, you look at this gentleman, we know him. He comes on Heritage is a great organization just because it's right leaning. I don't think he's suddenly impeachable. No, I don't think that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I didn't say impeach it. You wanted to suddenly impeach it.

[Joe Kernen]

You're saying he's suddenly impeached.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

What I'm saying is Project 2025, that's what's got. It is a particularly unique effort that is political and that if you were, if you were somebody on the left, you would invariably be on the left. The way you.

[Joe Kernen]

There are some. There's a couple of things in there that would raise the eyebrow of some people, but a lot of was sort of demagogued into some horrible thing and most of it was pretty reasonable. I mean, yesterday, Andrew, I saw this crazy thing. If you're a Republican, you stand for this. If you're a Democrat, you stand for this. And I'll send it to you. We don't need to go over it now. But there's one, two, there's probably 30 things. It's just unbelievable when you look at really what the left stands for versus what the. I mean very normal things like, you know, capitalism, lower taxes, legal immigration, voter ID needed, pro police, border enforcement, all these normal things. Opposite. On the other side, it's like what type of political party would have that as a platform?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't know what particular graphic you're reading.

[Joe Kernen]

No, it's just, it's just list some of the things. And you've known this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Yep.

[Joe Kernen]

We talked about Kamala Harris's positions. I mean, one after another. Even when I had people on that were backing her, I'd ask them, what positions do you like? And they went, orange man, bad orange man, bad. That's all they could come up with.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I think that people. But I think that the point is you want these numbers.

[Joe Kernen]

So you're talking uniquely to be credible. You're talking 2025. You think that that stigmatizes him because of.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think that 2025 has a political sort of triggering effect on large parts of the country.

[Joe Kernen]

It does trigger.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Who look specifically at that as something that undermines democracy. Right. Because if you really read that voter.

[Joe Kernen]

ID and stuff like that.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, no, no, not voter id. It was sort of how they were planning to use this administration to try to get certain things. By the way you're seeing it. By the way you are to some degree seeing what's happening, for example, in D.C. with the National Guard. That's an interesting example.

[Joe Kernen]

Are you. Do you have a problem with that?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I think that crime in D.C. is actually down.

[Joe Kernen]

It's not. I don't believe it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You don't believe it?

[Joe Kernen]

No, I don't believe it. I've been there. It's a terrible place. You're totally unsafe wherever you go. In the brief time I spent there, my car. Within eight hours, my wife's car was stolen. Someone I know that lives down. Their house was broken. I don't feel safe in any neighborhood there. Andrew. Go into a McDonald's down there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

There's about. And get out five cities in New York, all of which are in red states, which you probably, on a numerical basis, statistical basis, feel a lot less safe. Your chances are getting older than these other cities.

[Joe Kernen]

Not even close.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Meaningfully higher.

[Joe Kernen]

Not even close. And the statistics. Math, the statistics, the way that I have no idea how they got.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You don't believe the math.

[Joe Kernen]

It's much worse than pre pandemic level. There's homeless encampments everywhere down there. No neighborhood where you're walking around can you say, wow, this one, I feel totally safe. Maybe Georgetown a little bit. But most of the places down there you do not. It needs help. It's horribly run. And this is perfectly within his purview to do this down there and, you know, police state. The way that it's, you know, the hyperbole that's used immediately to look at it like USA Today claims. What was it? Must rescue in quotation marks. This is an editorial. That's an editorial statement on the front page of this stupid newspaper right there. Rescue it is, Andrew. You spend some time down there. You've seen some of the recent. I know it's anecdotal, but people getting beat up and congressional people A guy gets shot in the head. That's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We have a. We have a whole bunch of friends who live in D.C. yeah. Who don't complain about this or don't suggest that this.

[Joe Kernen]

I have someone very close to me that lives there. And it is a very scary place. And my car was down there for six hours on the ring camera. On the. And in Capitol Hill. Ring camera. There's the guys jumping into it, driving it off. You know that you remember the car.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I remember.

[Steve Kovach]

I remember what happened in the last year.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I remember it. So I get that there's bad things that happen. But then you could go around the whole country.

[Joe Kernen]

I think it's great that he's. I applaud him for. And the issues that he's won on law and order type issues.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But then. Okay. But then can I just ask you this?

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And I know you may or just may not agree. Then you go back to something like January 6th with a. Which was a big law and order day. Huge law and order situation. Huge law and order. And everybody who did things that was. That were completely unlawful. People who were a mob.

[Joe Kernen]

It was a mob.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

People who were. Who were chanting kill. They were trying to say kill the police officers.

[Joe Kernen]

Wasn't Trump himself saying that?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Hold on. He didn't, but he. Hold on. Do you know that there's somebody in the Department of Justice today who was hired, who works at the Department of Justice, who was part of the mob. And during this mob. He is chanting kill. He's telling people to kill the police officers.

[Joe Kernen]

I don't know about him. I don't know about him.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He works at the Department of Justice today.

[Steve Kovach]

Okay.

[Joe Kernen]

I've been over January 6th for a while. I don't think it compares to September over one thing. Cause I'm over.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And then say, well, we're cool with.

[Joe Kernen]

Order.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How. How are these things?

[Joe Kernen]

Because you're conflating something totally different.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm conflating law and order with law and order.

[Joe Kernen]

No, you're.

[Steve Kovach]

You're.

[Joe Kernen]

Okay. So you had a single incident the summer of. The summer.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Single incident.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah. And the Summer of Floyd, where are. Was mostly peaceful.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I'm not. Hold on. Just. Let's stipulate right now. I am not.

[Joe Kernen]

You said it at the. I remember at the time you said this is totally different and that the summer Floyd had. No. No way. You can. Because this is almost like Summer Floyd was like a just cause.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, I did not say it was a just cause. I did not say look. And I was never a defund. The Police person or anything like that. You know that, Andrew, the.

[Joe Kernen]

Okay, how many? You're going to tell me, like five people died and you're going to tell me.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm going to say an insurrection. I'm not even going to use the.

[Joe Kernen]

Word insurrection because it usually starts with arms.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm just going to say there was an incident that was clearly a violation of law enforcement.

[Joe Kernen]

What's your point then? That the president who gave that speech and said, go. Absolutely.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, we're not even talking about that. We're saying, here's a group of people who did something that was clearly illegal.

[Joe Kernen]

And law and order, so let's stop it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No. And what happened?

[Joe Kernen]

What?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Every single of every single person practically who was involved and engaged in that either was let out of prison. Their case was expunged.

[Joe Kernen]

You know, not a single person. Nobody did time from Summer of Floyd. None of those people even did a day. Half these other people that were. You got caught up in what going on. You were playing with Nancy Pelosi's laptop and swinging from the rafters with the guy with the horns. Come on. It was over by nightfall, Andrew, and it was terrible. But it's not September 11th.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

People who are engaged with it.

[Joe Kernen]

Not September 11th.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But you don't think that people are engaged with that kind of stuff?

[Joe Kernen]

I don't see what it has to do with this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, just the whole idea. No, it was more that you were making an argument that we needed law and order in D.C. and I was.

[Joe Kernen]

In Baltimore, and probably in Baltimore.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

The crime in Baltimore is down by a third.

[Joe Kernen]

You believe these statistics. Have you been to Baltimore?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I have been to Baltimore. I was actually just in Baltimore, as it happens. Do I believe the statistics? I mean, this goes back to the idea of numbers.

[Joe Kernen]

No, you can definitely. You can definitely.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This whole conversation began because. Do we believe the numbers? Do we believe the BLS statisticist numbers?

[Joe Kernen]

You can game the violent crime.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I mean, you can name the violent crime. You either know the person's dead or they're not dead.

[Joe Kernen]

You do know that Biden in the past. Biden in the past signed a congressional resolution in 2023 to overturn the D.C. city's revisions to the criminal code, which reduced all the maximum penalties for carjacking and illegal gun possession. You reduce the penalties. You reduce what is a felony and what's a misdemeanor. Wow, look at how felonies have dropped.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

That sounds like a terrible idea.

[Joe Kernen]

Well, it got a lot of eyes from the Democratic side of the aisle when he did it. In 2000.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, it sounds like it was a terrible mistake to reverse the. Well, you're telling me that Biden reversed.

[Joe Kernen]

All of these, revoking the maximum sentences? Yeah. It was a good thing that he did. And it got up a lot of Democratic support to not allow them to lessen the sentences for serious crimes. Right, but that's what they were doing. You can classify a felony as a misdemeanor, and suddenly your felonies are down. The felonies are down 30%. Did you ever see the Wire or any.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Of course.

[Joe Kernen]

Then you see how these things are done.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You just think it's all manipulated.

[Joe Kernen]

I absolutely do. And I know that. What I feel like. And what about the murder rate? What I feel.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you believe murder rates?

[Joe Kernen]

It's not great.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you believe murder rates?

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah, you can see how many people die. But it's.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You could see they're dead or they're not dead.

[Joe Kernen]

So it's dead from. It's dead. Down from really bad recent years, but still up from the pandemic.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

No, no. All I'm suggesting is there are cities in this country, unfortunately, and it's terrible in red states. And it's. Yes, that's, that's, that's where the highest murder rates are, in red states. And, and my question is, would you then support the National Guard wherever those.

[Joe Kernen]

Cities, Wherever you need to do it.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay.

[Joe Kernen]

And he definitely has the purview in, in this. In this city where. The seat of government.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay.

[Joe Kernen]

January 6th. How did you get to January 6th?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I love you, man.

[Joe Kernen]

You can get there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let's talk about Elon Musk. We got Elon Musk. We have some big news. With Elon Musk going on and Apple in this, you want to talk about.

[Joe Kernen]

The poor Doge kid, the big balls had the crap beat out of him down there trying to stop a carjacking that happened last week.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Tease will be next. Coming up, some people getting out their popcorn on this one.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Elon Musk threatens legal action against Apple. He's alleging antitrust violations over seemingly preferential treatment of OpenAI in the App Store. CNBC's Steve Kovach and contributor Michal Levram explain the relationship.

[Michal Levram]

Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for powering its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Squawkpod will be right back.

[Podcast Host (Schwab Market Update)]

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[Joe Kernen]

What made you confident that you could.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do something that hadn't been done before?

[Michal Levram]

I have no fear of failure.

[Podcast Host (Prolon / Julia Boorstin Ads)]

Trailblazing women, Changing the game One of.

[Michal Levram]

My favorite pieces of advice Think about what your boss's boss needs. Leadership can look in many, many different forms.

[Podcast Host (Prolon / Julia Boorstin Ads)]

It really does come down to just trusting yourself.

[Michal Levram]

Life is short and you just gotta.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Think big to accomplish big things.

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Julia Boorstin hosts CNBC Changemakers and Power Players. New episodes every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

This is Squawk Pod from cnbc. Here's Andrew Ross Sorkin up and Andrew.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You Welcome back to Squawk Box. Elon Musk threatening to sue Apple over the tech giants App Store ranking for Grok AI chat bot versus OpenAI's chat GPT. Now OpenAI CEO Sam Altman joined us on Squawk Box last week and we asked him about Musk's comments that OpenAI will eat Microsoft alive. You know, I don't think about him that much. What do you think of the larger idea though? That, that he's effectively saying that open air long term will eat Microsoft alive. I don't know what that means. Do you know what that means? I'm not sure what he means except to say that he thinks in the, in the grand scheme of the partnership that ultimately you'll have more power, more influence and more lever over them than they'll have over you. I thought he was most, I mean someone was. I think he's just like tweeting all.

[Steve Kovach]

Day about how much like opening I.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Sucks and our model is bad and.

[Steve Kovach]

You know, not going to be a.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Good company and all of that. So I don't know.

[Steve Kovach]

I don't know how you square those two things.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Well, we're going to try to square those two things with Two new things that happened overnight. Some people getting out their popcorn on this one. Steve Kovach is here. He joins us now with the latest.

[Steve Kovach]

Yeah, well, Altman was certainly thinking of Musk last night because he'd weighed in on this, a comment by Musk saying he wants to sue Apple over those App Store rankings. Let's talk a little bit about what Musk is alleging here. He's saying the editorial decisions the App Store team makes is being is an antitrust violation because they promote the Chatbots app and those recommended app rankings, but not the Grok or X app. So that, apparently, to Musk, is an antitrust violation. Let me talk a little bit, though, about how the App Store actually works. There are these organic rankings, which is based on the popularity of how the apps are being downloaded. You'll see those in the most popular apps. Chatbots usually ranks there, but that's just because most people, more people are downloading it than any other AI app. And then there are a team of humans over at Apple who decide what apps to feature on a given day. You see this when you launch the App Store and it tells you, you know, you can look at this app or, you know, some kind of cool little article or something about it. That is, that's kind of what Musk seems to be claiming, complaining about. There are ways to get ranked, though. You can make a good app and get it, make it very popular. You can also pay Apple to buy ads to be promoted in the App Store. Musk seems to think he deserves to have this kind of free placement in there. And this really, guys, follows a pattern we've been seeing with Musk, where if things don't go his way, he likes to kind of sue or at least threaten to sue about it. We know, of course, he's suing OpenAI over the nonprofit issue there. He does have some good points about how that company was structured. He's also suing Media Matters, alleging antitrust collusion between a group of advertisers because they pointed out correctly, by the way, that a lot of ads were being up against some bad content. So this is part of a larger pattern, guys, that we see with Elon Musk, you know, not necessarily winning on product, but kind of trying to win in the court.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is not.

[Steve Kovach]

And he has it sued, by the way.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But this is not the. This is not the App Store Apple tax debate.

[Steve Kovach]

No, not even close. No.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So, but what do we think is really going on here that's preventing somebody else from getting to the top of.

[Steve Kovach]

The App Store, it's an editorial decision that Apple makes, so they have it. Years ago, I met with one of the members of this team and they really think about this. They see what apps are cool, what do we want to feature? You know, there's no guarantee your app is going to get a good featured placement there, but you do get featured. If your app is good, you can win in the marketplace, so to speak. Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You can make a good app. Just so we're 100% clear, you're saying the rankings.

[Steve Kovach]

There are two rankings, right? Okay, so there's the one ranking that's just literally based on how popular an app is. That's not what Musk is talking about. What he's talking about is this group of people who decide they're like these recommended app rankings and those. That's what he's complaining.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But when I go on the App Store and I look and it's. And I look at the number one, number two, number three, that's, I hope, a ranking based on some mathematical formula. Is that not the case?

[Steve Kovach]

That's not. But that's not what it doesn't seem like that's what he's talking about because then, then he just has to win by making a better app than Chat. Cbt. Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But that's what I think. That's what he is talking.

[Steve Kovach]

I think he's talking about the editorial because they're recommended apps. If you look in the App Store right now.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Right.

[Steve Kovach]

You're also just the home page of the App Store. You'll see some apps feature there.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Don't make like they like somebody. They don't like somebody. Whatever.

[Steve Kovach]

That seems to be his complaint. His complaint isn't that he said you.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Can'T get to the top of the ranking.

[Steve Kovach]

I think he's talking about the recommended one. So if you can't get to the top of the ranking, that's on you, Elon Musk, you have to make a better app that people want to download.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

See, I thought, okay, so here, free top, free apps. Right now, ChatGPT is at the top of that list. Top charts.

[Steve Kovach]

And that's based on how many people are downloading it.

[Joe Kernen]

Correct.

[Steve Kovach]

That's not based on.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It's not an editorial choice.

[Steve Kovach]

There's no editorial choice. Now there are sections in the App Store where there are editorial choices.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

He's running at number five, by the way, at the moment. Yeah.

[Steve Kovach]

And that's pretty, pretty darn.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

By the way, he's behind the T dating advice app.

[Steve Kovach]

We don't even want to get into what that is.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I don't even know what that is.

[Joe Kernen]

Either of a sore subject, Andrew.

[Steve Kovach]

You don't want to get into it.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do you know about this?

[Steve Kovach]

Do you know what you do?

[Joe Kernen]

Speaking of apps, where would my app be by now? It doesn't exist. Exactly. Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Oh no. I've been building it on ChatGPT.

[Steve Kovach]

Can it be done by now? Well, ChatGPT 5 is.

[Joe Kernen]

No, that's my, that's my point.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So 5 has been slower than I expected.

[Steve Kovach]

It's really slow.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

And then separately it threw me into GitHub with the code.

[Joe Kernen]

When are you expecting this to be?

[Steve Kovach]

What is the app?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I have my. Oh, you don't know about this?

[Steve Kovach]

No, I know it's a Joe Kerman app.

[Joe Kernen]

This is the, you would want the opposite app.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

This is the Vernon MSM Truth app. So what this app does is nothing in it. It looks at the day's news and then it takes the most conservative view you could possibly take at it and tells you what's wrong with the news.

[Joe Kernen]

It would be the anti Kovac.

[Steve Kovach]

It takes the emails. Joe forwards me in the mornings and.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

It'S bingo, you got one. Bing goes a doozy. What's his name? O. But.

[Joe Kernen]

If I don't get up there where it deserves to be, Sue.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You should sue. You should get on.

[Joe Kernen]

So where are we on this?

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I'm like halfway in and then I, I didn't give up. I just need to spend more time.

[Joe Kernen]

You got to work on your book.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

You know, I got, I got other work to do.

[Joe Kernen]

Yeah, you do. Okay.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Joining us right now on her thoughts on all of this is Michal Lev Ram, Silicon Valley journalist and a contributing editor at Fortune magazine as well as a CNBC contributor. What say you? What do you make of this?

[Michal Levram]

Well, good morning, Andrew. I don't know about unequivocal. There are definitely some, some really valid issues that Musk raises here. What he's basically saying is that Apple is giving Open Air preferential treatment in its App Store rankings and like you said, threatening to take legal action. As we all know, Apple has a partnership with OpenAI for power, its Siri and Apple intelligence products. And that in and of itself is not an antitrust violation. But if indeed Apple is giving preferential ranking to, to chatbots, to OpenAI's product, you know, Musk could have a case. I think what he's really like unleashed here though beyond this potential self preferencing accusations is some, some real frustrations with Apple's AI strategy which I know we've talked about at length and I'm seeing a lot of posts and a lot of chatter about that and about, you know, what comes down the road and does Apple stick just with chat GPT? What is its longer term strategy? And for those people who are paying for Grok or for Gemini or Anthropic or other models, you know, they want to use their model of choice with their iPhones and have it be a more integrated experience. Right now that's not possible.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, so let's just understand a couple of things because we talked to Kovac earlier and he was making the comment that he, he thought maybe we weren't. He wasn't talking about manipulating the, the App Store list. I think it's the App Store list, the actual rankings in the App Store that Elon is referring to. I think that's what he's saying. The question is how you would do that if you, if you believe that that list is not editorially focused but is actually like an algorithm. He's effectively saying that somebody is literally putting their, putting their thumb on the scale. Or do you think he's saying that because of the relationship that Apple has with OpenAI and the integration issue and maybe the way it's promoted in the editorial areas, if you will, of the App Store, that they are able to boost it in a higher on the list as a function of that, but that mathematically it would get there, but it's getting there because of all of this extra support.

[Michal Levram]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good question. It's really hard to answer though, because Apple's ranking is very murky. It's a lot of it has been a combination of algorithmic ranking and editorial curation, which Apple is kind of known for. And there's been a reason for that. You know, they would argue that it's quality, that they're adding a human touch there, just as they do with Apple News, by the way. So I think it's a really, really hard case to make. You know, that said, again, it poses a broader question about this partnership between Apple and OpenAI and what happens down the road for people who do want more choice. And obviously, you know, this has been a big issue with Apple and its App Store more broadly, like we saw with the Epic Games lawsuit and what's gone on with some of the in app purchases and the lack of payment options, the high commissions that Apple takes. So I think it raises a lot of questions that are going to be very, very hard to answ, you know, one of which for me by the way, is, is Elon Musk serious? Is he really going to take legal action? Because what's happening now, actually, which is kind of ironic and funny, is that it's also unleashed this campaign. You know, lots of people who are putting in their, their reviews for grok for X AI's product. And if indeed that helps raise its rankings in the Apple App Store, then I think it also weakens Elon Musk's case.

[Steve Kovach]

Right, Right.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Let me just ask you one, one final question. I'm a ChatGPT user. I also use Grok. I play around with all of them quite regularly. What I don't do, oddly enough, is use ChatGPT through my iPhone that often. I don't find myself effectively leveraging that. And it's. I don't find myself sort of hooked into the chat GPT universe simply because I live in the Apple universe. I also happen to live in a Google world, oftentimes on my iPhone as it happens. How much lift do you think the open air relationship as it exists inside of the iOS on this phone is pushing people to the paid or even unpaid version of ChatGPT, the app?

[Michal Levram]

I mean, when you set up Apple Intelligence today, you do have one option, and that's ChatGPT. There is an option within that setup process to upgrade to a paid version. So I do think that it probably is pushing some people towards that route. You know, not everybody is experimenting with as many apps as you do, Andrew. And I know you're vibe coding an app even so you're, you know, you're, you're fully immersed here. And I do think that for people who. Introduction. What's that?

[Joe Kernen]

I said. So he said, I haven't finished the work on it. Very little progress.

[Michal Levram]

All right, well, we'll believe it when we see it, I guess. But you know, I do think for, for people whose introduction to, to AI, to gen AI is really going to be through Apple, which is some proportion of the population, you know. Yes, it does lead them to that route, to the chat route.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We got to thank you for waking up early and watching, for jumping in, for watching. We appreciate all of those things. And yes, my vibe coding effort is not finished, but I'm still working on it. So thank you for the encouragement.

[Joe Kernen]

Be happy to have to take over.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Excuse me, you don't have to take over.

[Joe Kernen]

With the.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

Next on Squawk Pod Circle's first quarterly report since going public, the CEO of the digital payments infrastructure company Jeremy Allaire on what he sees as the future of finance.

[Jeremy Allaire]

When you have super high velocity, very high utility money. People are going to want to borrow that and I think we're going to see very robust credit markets develop that are operated on blockchain networks.

[Podcast Host (Schwab Market Update)]

This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information packed daily market Preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] MarketUpdatePodcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts.

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[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

And we're back. You're listening to Squawk Pod with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Here's Andrew.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Circle shares higher after the crypto firm issued its first quarterly report as a public company. Total revenue growing 52% over the prior year. Joining us right now is Jeremy Lair, co founder and chairman and CEO of Circle. And it's great to see you. Congratulations. I haven't seen you since the ipo, which I think has been, you know, a wild rocket of a ride for you.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah, it's been an interesting couple of months here.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

How have you enjoyed this is the first quarter. So how did you enjoy putting this together? And I'm curious how it's actually even just changed thinking about the company because before you didn't have to think in quarters.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Well, you know the interesting thing about Circle is, you know our, our main metric is available and its status is visible to the world on public blockchains in real time, USDC in circulation, the amount of transactions happening on our network. And so unlike most companies we have real time visibility into fundamentals for how we perform. So in some ways we've been accustomed to hey people analyzing looking at that. But obviously this is this much bigger looks takes into account the entirety of the business, the multi multiple dimensions etc. You know the other is that you know, as a, as a highly regulated company, as a company that has been trying to always be at the forefront of trust and transparency. You know I've had to take a public role, not just with policymakers, but more broadly so people understand this.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, two questions. You're growing 52%. Is that sustainable? And at the same time, we should note that you did lose money this quarter. Now I know some of that was this ipo, but what does that look like to you as the year goes on?

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah, I'd say a couple of things. I think the first is, as you noted, you know, USDC in circulation grew 90% year over year to the end of Q2 and it's been accelerating. So since the end of the quarter to Sunday, August 10th, we've seen it go from 61 billion to 65.2 billion. And I think it's, you know, more today. But basically we've seen this acceleration and acceleration in transactions and that acceleration obviously is, is tremendous. That's 49% year to date growth that we've seen in USDC. That's a fundamental driver of our revenue and of our revenue growth. And so when we look out, we don't give guidance on, you know, how much USDC is going to grow. It's sort of an economy and you kind of see that. But if you zoom out and look at what analysts are saying, not just about Circle, but about the amount of stablecoin money that's going to grow, you know, the Cagres range from 25% to 90%. So an average CAGR is like 60%. We're happy to take the, you know, the lower end range of that to say, hey, if, if we could grow 40% a year, that would be great.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Huge.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Okay, but what do you think is baked into the cake as you look at your own stock?

[Jeremy Allaire]

Well, look, I think the validation that we've seen in Circle and the sentiment around Circle is really about people understanding, I think in some cases for the first time that the Internet is colliding with the financial system and it's happening. And just like open Internet software networks and utilities change media and communications and retail and education, it's happening to the financial system. And stablecoin money is sort of, and blockchains are foundational to that future financial.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

So weigh in on this big almost philosophical, practical financial issue, which is that for stablecoins to work properly, they need to be backed by something, typically Treasuries. There's a big question mark about who is going to be buying our Treasuries in the future and a view among some that the treasury market is ultimately actually going to be supported for some period of time as a function of the advent of stablecoins because more people are going to need to buy these Treasuries to back the stable coins and that should give a boost to the treasury market. Other people say maybe, but it's really just a recycling of money because the money is going to come out of the banks. And by the way, if they're sitting over with the stable coins, it's actually less efficient from an economic perspective given that you actually can't effectively then loan against that money in the same way that a bank could.

[Jeremy Allaire]

I think a lot about these issues, obviously. I think first the base layer of digital cash on the Internet needs to be as safe as possible. And I believe that, you know, the bipartisan policymaking, I think leadership from the administration has set in federal law that stablecoin money is going to be this very safe, fully reserved form of money. When you have money moving at the speed of the Internet everywhere in the world, you need it to be as safe as possible. And short duration Treasuries, you know, there are multiple eligible forms of, of, of collateral for these, but it is at that short end.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Jeremy Allaire]

And cash as, as a kind of cash like instrument. Now I think the view that, you know, this crowds out, you know, the ability for, for lending to happen I actually think is a mistaken view. I think that when you have super high velocity, very high utility money, people are going to want to borrow that. And I think we're going to see very robust credit markets develop that are operating on blockchain networks and we'll see actually more efficient credit delivery with more transparency, more supervisibility. We actually think we can get to a safer financial system with more effective credit delivery built on this new kind of stablecoin.

[Joe Kernen]

That almost puts something like Bitcoin in the permanent class of just a store of value. Because I would, I could argue that you call it safe. Yes, safe, except for the devaluation, continual devaluation of the dollar as time goes by. You're talking about safe for near term transactions and absolutely safe. It stays at a dollar, but the dollar itself in 10 years is worth 70 cents.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah, well, I think, you know, there's.

[Joe Kernen]

Sort of like, there's the things you're.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Worried you over the kind of fiscal.

[Joe Kernen]

You could never do a stablecoin based on Bitcoin.

[Jeremy Allaire]

That's correct. I mean essentially, you know, what we see in fact as a major growth driver in our business is the internationalization of these digital dollars. And you even hear that from President Trump, Secretary of Treasury. We want to export these digital dollars we want to put them in the hands of people who want to hold them and transact with them.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Jeremy Allaire]

So that global demand is very, is very real. And I think, you know, this is a kind of currency competition on the Internet versus China versus other markets. And this is a technological weapon to compete. And it turns out also that people don't want to hold a volatile crypto asset in many places they want to hold a dollar.

[Joe Kernen]

Right.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Because it actually is significant.

[Joe Kernen]

Next week it is actually.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

I know you got to go. But let me ask you one final question. Right now you are the only game in town as it relates to being a publicly traded company in this space. And you are the biggest game in town in the marketplace. However, there are a lot of folks who are looking at this market saying they want to be in this big banks, exchanges, private company, all sorts of folks. And so what do you think this industry looks like over the next three years? And what kind of market share will you ultimately have?

[Jeremy Allaire]

Yeah, well, first of all, to understand our business, stablecoin networks are Internet platform and network utilities, their network businesses and network businesses have network effects and create kind of bulwarks and we've seen that. So liquidity, network effects, utility network effects and those have grown for us it's been core part of our strategy. And so they're, we believe, you know, very, very significant kind of, you know, thresholds that one has to hit. And in fact there have been many large companies who have launched dollar stablecoins which are not really used at all. And I think establishing those networks and liquidity is very hard and the infrastructure built around it is very significant. And so that doesn't mean there aren't going to be other new entrants. There absolutely are. But I think network models like we've seen in other Internet software utility categories are winner take most market structures. They aren't necessarily winner take all market structures. You know, we, as I like to say, we hope to be the most of the most.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

But if you're a big bank at JP Morgan for example, and you want to have your own stablecoin, I mean just think about the built in marketplace that you already have is quite gigantic.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Well, the marketplace of the Internet is 5, 6 billion people and, and the marketplace of the Internet tends towards sort of open, open networks and more of a software like DNA, we think we're very well set up for that. And I think banks, you know what we're finding our banks want to partner. Since our IPO and since the Genius act passed, the number of major financial institutions that are engaging with us in banking, payments, capital markets. So many categories has surged. And so we're seeing this incredible interest in working with us, including from some of the names that people have thrown out there as maybe doing their own thing.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Jeremy Lair, it's very exciting to see all your progress. Please come back.

[Jeremy Allaire]

Thank you.

[CNBC Producer Katie Kramer / CNBC Reporter Steve Kovach]

And that's the POD for today. Thanks for listening. Squawkbox is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin. You can tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern or get the smartest takes and analysis from our team TV show right into your ears when you follow Squawk Pod. Wherever you get your podcasts, we'll meet you right back here tomorrow.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

We are clear. Thanks, guys.

[Jeremy Allaire]

What made you confident that you could.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Do something that hadn't been done before?

[Michal Levram]

I have no fear of failure.

[Podcast Host (Prolon / Julia Boorstin Ads)]

Trailblazing women, changing the game.

[Michal Levram]

One of my favorite pieces of advice, think about what your boss's boss needs. Leadership can look in many, many different forms.

[Podcast Host (Prolon / Julia Boorstin Ads)]

It really does come down to just trusting yourself.

[Michal Levram]

Life is short and you just gotta.

[Andrew Ross Sorkin]

Think big to accomplish big things.

[Podcast Host (Prolon / Julia Boorstin Ads)]

Julia Boorstin hosts CNBC Changemakers and Power players. New episodes every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts.